speaker-0: The point of a song is not the last note, right? It's really the whole song, right? And that's the that's the journey. A relationship is really a series of conversations.

speaker-1: Showing up as yourself is always the best thing that you can do. You know, like people think, ⁓ I'd be so happy if I didn't have to work. And that actually creates a feeling of incredible anxiety and meaninglessness. Welcome to the XX Lab, where we explore the science and stories that matter to you. Today on the XX Lab, I'm joined by Dr. Sonia Lubomirski, who's a distinguished professor at the University of California Riverside, best-selling author, and one of the world's leading authorities on happiness. In this conversation, we dive into what science has to say about things that can actually make us happier. And not just in theory, but in ways that actually hold up in real life. We're going to talk about the science of connection, why feeling loved is more complex than it sounds, and how our everyday behaviors shape our emotional lives in ways that we don't fully appreciate. We also discuss her new book, How to Feel Loved and what it gets right about relationships, happiness, and how being seen by other people. is what can really make us feel loved. This is the XX Lab. I'm Dr. Sarah Hill. Let's get started. Dr. Sonia Lubimersky, welcome to the XX Lab.

speaker-0: I'm so happy to be here, Sarah.

speaker-1: I am so happy to see you. ⁓ I wanted to start by seeing if you remember how you and I met one another.

speaker-0: I mean I'm thinking it was at a conference, ⁓ S P S P conference.

speaker-1: It was, it was. And we were introduced by our mutual friend, Doug Henrick. Yes. And I don't know if you remember, but but the reason that he introduced me to you is because I had just told him the filthiest joke that I know.

speaker-0: The night that we told jokes to each other, right?

speaker-1: Yes, and we were in the presidential

speaker-0: In a hotel room, but it was like a sweet it was a big

speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, it was like the presidential suite. Okay. and and I told you what is what is to this day the filthiest joke I've ever known in my life. And I t had told it to Doug and he thought it was the funniest thing he'd ever heard. And so he was like, You need to meet my friend Sonia because she will appreciate this incredible.

speaker-0: That is hilarious.

speaker-1: Incredibly filthy joke. And so anyway, so for for to me, you are for I will forever remember you in the context of of being somebody who would appreciate the filthiest joke that I've ever told in my life.

speaker-0: I love I love that. I love that. I do remember the jokes evening. It's it's such a highlight of all of my conference going experiences. ⁓ and I guess I always want to recreate that and somehow we've never quite recreated that evening.

speaker-1: No, I think we'll have to we'll have to try next year at SPSP. Yeah. ⁓ so I I wanna start out ⁓ because you have spent your research career ⁓ studying a lot of really cool stuff, but I think that the things that you're probably most well known for ⁓ is your work in well-being and and and happiness and ⁓ and I wanna start by just talking about what what does it mean to be happy?

speaker-0: You mean the definition of happiness or just

speaker-1: Like what like what is it? Like I I think that everybody thinks they want it, right? But like like what is it? Like science like like how would you operationally define that in science?

speaker-0: I mean I always I always give the scientific definition that I use that that Ed Deaner who founded this the science of well being developed, which is is really has happiness really has two components, two parts. And one is happy people experience positive emotions, you know, pretty frequently. For some people it could be joy, enthusiasm, you know, affection. For others it could be calm, tranquility, pride. All right, so it's kinda depends on the person. So and they don't experience positive emotions all the time, of course. ⁓ Negative emotions are functional, right, and adaptive as long as they're not too, you know, intense or chronic. ⁓ so that's one part. It's it's just positive emotions. That's really kind of the really the key to to being a happy person. But there's another part, which is that having a sense that your life is good, that you're progressing towards your life goals, that you're satisfied with your life, sort of life satisfaction is that other part. So that's that's really what happiness.

speaker-1: And so is it possible right to be happy most of the time? Like ⁓ do you think that most do most people feel happy most of the time? Well actually

speaker-0: most there's c something called the positivity offset, which is that most people are happier than not h than unhappy most of the time. I mean I I'm not sure what the I don't forget what the I don't know what the number is, not all the time. ⁓ right. But we certainly have More positive emotions than negative emotions on average. I think really it's only people who are really fairly depressed who have, you know, the the ratio sort of the the other way. I mean I wouldn't recommend being happy all the time, you know, most of the time. And and we need that contrast. And as I mentioned, negative emotions are really important too. Like if you see injustice in the world, it's important to feel angry and that prompts you to do something about it. And if you have an upcoming presentation at work, you know, feeling a little anxious is also really adaptive. So yeah. So I yeah, mo you know most of us don't don't feel happy all the time. And so don't feel bad if you don't feel happy all the time.

speaker-1: Yeah, I think that sometimes ⁓ there's a tendency to assume that ⁓ a good life is one where you have the absence of negative emotion. ⁓ and and I always like I tell my students, like if we had an absence of negative emotion, we would probably all die within six months because it's it's it's it's it's telling us really useful information, right? Exactly.

speaker-0: I actually just gave a lecture yesterday, I ⁓ to like my science of happiness class about about this very thing where the you know the function of negative emotions is basically to get us out of you know life and death situations, you know, right? So we see a tiger or whatever and we've run away. If we didn't have that instinct, you know, we would die. We need to experience them and sometimes like they're just very useful and they're growth promoting. It's really only as I mentioned, when negative emotions are chronic. Or when they're really intense, that they are not func they're just suffering, right? So when it's just suffering, there's nothing good about suffering, is that is that what is what I say.

speaker-1: Yeah, so how do you tell the how do you tell the difference between those things?

speaker-0: And it's chronic and it's intense, right? It's like if you're experiencing that sadness or the anger or the anxiety, which are really the three main ones I would say, ⁓ there's also disgust. you know, if you're experiencing them like a lot of the time and it's interfering with your functioning, with your everyday life, you know, then then it's not functional.

speaker-1: Yeah, I I always think like evolutionarily about the emotions and the way that what you know I always talk about them with my students, for example, is that, you know, it's essentially like the sticks and carrots that are like moving us toward things that historically would have helped promote survival or reproduction. So things like sex and mating and falling in love and forming friendships and you know, all these things feel really good and we ⁓ and and we're moving toward things that historically would have led to gene transmission. Right. And that the th things that feel lousy, being socially isolated, being disconnected, not having a, you know, romantic partner or being broken up with, ⁓ these things feel really terrible because essentially it's our brain telling us like this isn't a positive, you know, don't do this. Like this is bad. ⁓ and that, you know, essentially that if we can understand our emotions this way and and and our responses to things this way, it can help presumably guide us toward things, you know, in a sort of more focused way that will make us feel good and Avoiding those things that

speaker-0: And you I you know I wasn't li unlike you, I wasn't trained as an evolutionary psychologist, but actually I I I think about evolutionary psychology all the time. You know, I I feel it's ⁓ it's really my favorite theory of all time. and it's I I feel like it applies to almost everything and certainly to emotional life.

speaker-1: Yeah, one of the things that I that I've always like one of the happiness traps I fall into and I've fallen into my entire life, and it's and it's one that you write write about in ⁓ in your first book, The How of Happiness. And it's this idea that ⁓ I will be happy when, right? It's that story that our brain tells ourselves about like when we arrive to this whatever the destination is, that we're going to finally feel happy. And so I'm sure I I don't know if you went through this, but it was like When I was in college, it was like when I get into a good graduate program, I'll be happy. And then when I was in a graduate program, it was like when I get my PhD I'll be happy. When I get a job I'll be happy. When I get tenure, I'll be happy. When I get my first NSF grant, I'll be happy. When I you know, and then you get there and then you realize there's no there there. Right. And that then that you're ultimately it's it doesn't really make you happy. Yeah.

speaker-0: Exactly. It's really ⁓ it sounds like such a cliche, but it's really the journey, right? That that matters. But someone just said to me, actually I was just at a conference, and someone says something like, you know, the point of a song is not the last note, right? it's just really the whole song, right? And that's sort of that's the journey. And that that kind of stayed with me. yeah, so be you know, be again, humans human beings are very good at getting used to things. So hedonic adaptation is this phenomenon that we sort of adapt. To almost everything that happens to us, both positive and negative, but we adapt to the positives faster, right? So, you know, you get the you get the new job, you get ⁓ you start a relationship, you move to a bigger house, you get a car, a new car, and first we're really happy, and then we want more. And you know, and I would say it's evolutionarily adaptive for us to always want more, because otherwise humans would like not make any progress, right? We'd reach that hill with that little source of food. And some cute guys and we'd be like, Okay, I'm d we're done, right? ⁓ and you know, we don't wanna always we don't wanna be done, we always want more.

speaker-1: Right. And I think like recognizing that I think can be really helpful. I mean, I know in my own life, like actually my dissertation was on this very issue. ⁓ the name of my dissert the title of my dissertation, and it's so funny because I kind of moved out of this research area almost as soon as I began it. But it was it was called like dissatisfied by design. Right. And it's just this idea that our brain is wired to hedonically adapt and have everything like as soon as we reach the one mountain peak that we want to get to the next one. And ultimately, as you noted, it's like it would help promote survival and reproduction, getting us So that way we don't just like, yeah, reach the berry bush with the one cue guy and then we're like, okay, I'm done here. And then, you know, everybody else is outperforming us b by magnitudes, and they're the ones who passed down the genes, right? Because they were presumably cons continuing to pursue ⁓ better alternative options. And and so then what is what is is is there hope for us to feel happy like given so that given the the fact that we hedonically adapt, especially to, you know, pop like hedonic adaptation of positive things, right? When things are good, like we immediately adapt to them. And then there's also the strong genetic component to happiness, which ⁓ is something that you also discuss in your book. ⁓ is there hope for a listener who is kind of a little mis a little miserable? is there hope ⁓ to feeling better given that we're wired to be a little bit chronically dissatisfied and that there is a genetic component to ⁓ to happiness?

speaker-0: And this is exactly the question that I pose in my first book, The How of Happiness. Well, my second book, The Myths of Happiness, is hedonic adaptation. Basically, the whole book is hedonic adaptation. So I'm excited to hear that your dissertation was about this. yeah, ⁓ it this is exactly the question that I pose. And and of course there is hope, you know. There's and I've been studying happiness for 36 years. ⁓ so you know, I wouldn't be still in, I guess, in this field if I didn't think it was there was hope. But it's not easy. It's hard. But you know what? Everything in life is hard. If you want to lose weight And become fit or raise happy, healthy children. You know, it's not easy. Like it takes effort. You have to create good habits. And so ⁓ much of my career, I think for the last in 1998, my students and I pioneered what we call, this is when Bill Clinton was president, right? So this is long time ago. 1998, we pioneered what we call happiness interventions, right? Which are basically randomized controlled trials, clinical trials, to test happiness practices. So instead of testing like a vaccine, we're testing happiness practices. And so this is what we've been doing, you know, all these years testing whether like expressing gratitude does that make people happier. You know, it does, but you have to keep it up and you might have to vary it and sort of do it in different ways. And doing it in a d a way that fits you, you know, 'cause otherwise you'll adapt. ⁓ we don't adapt to activities as fast as we adapt to like things or situ you know. Or like constant stimuli. and so actually, and then so we've done these interventions all these years, and then it finally hit me after all these years, actually why I have a actually have a TED talk on this where I say, you know, I I realized I wasn't listening to what the data were trying to tell me, ⁓ which is that that almost all of these interventions that work to make us happier. So the interventions are like gratitude interventions, acts of kindness interventions, or interventions where we ask people to act more extroverted. These all work to make us happier. Why do they all work? Do they have something in common? So we so I realized what what they all have in common is they make us feel more connected and more loved. Right. Yeah. So when I write a gratitude letter to my mom or my best friend, right, I feel more loved by her. When I write I do an act of kindness for a colleague, I feel closer to them. And so I wouldn't say every single happiness practice makes you feel connected. Maybe you can go take on a run on the beach and you know, that's not really about connection, but but almost everything is about feeling connected and loved, which is how we got to to ⁓ to my book, How to Feel Loved, you know, it's sort of happiness to to love. So basically to become a better happiness scientist, I realized I had to become a love scientist, or at least to work with one. So I joined with a co-author, Harry, to to write the book.

speaker-1: Yeah, and I wanna and I'm gonna return to the the the issue of feeling loved because I think that that's such a I think it's a fascinating topic and I really I I really loved I loved the book. I thought it was really fantastic and I really like the ⁓ the the mind shifts, like the mindsets that you suggest for feeling more loved. Before we do that though, I w I do want to talk a little bit about the about the different types of practice for cultivating happiness. and and I wanna talk a little bit about like what the science says about these things. So for example ⁓ and you you mentioned a lot of these, right? Acts of kindness, of a role of like that gratitude plays, right? So having a gratitude practice. ⁓ so what does this look like? So for example, with gratitude, like if somebody is listening ⁓ wants to cultivate more happiness in their life and they want to start a gratitude practice. I know that they they sell gratitude journals on Amazon, you can find them at the bookstore. ⁓ like does somebody need to buy a special journal? Like like what does it look like to have an effective based on the research, like what what's an effective gratitude practice?

speaker-0: Well well that it so there's there's a long answer I think to that because it depends on so many factors. ⁓ but no you don't need to buy a journal. you know, we we've done so many gratitude studies. We we we have found, for example, that actually writing gratitude letters to specific individuals in your life, you know, like thanking them for, you know, what what they've you know, the ways they've supported you, et cetera, is actually is more powerful than like writing a list of something of what you're grateful for. Actually anytime you sort of write a narrative, ⁓ We actually one of my students is actually doing a study where we're testing ⁓ people using AI to help them write a gratitude letter or not just doing it themselves and then and then reveal either revealing or not to the person that you're actually sending the letter that you used AI. So that's just 'cause this is something this is happening. And so if you're if you maybe you're someone who just like I don't know like Has a hard time sitting down and writing a graduate letter. ⁓ it can you know, the AI can help. They'll ask you questions like, Well tell me about your mom and what is you know, you know, what do you appreciate about her? but anyway, so so letters seem to to work better are are sa yeah.

speaker-1: Okay, I I need to know the punchline. So is there a difference? Like do people experience. Okay. Yeah, that's really interesting. Cause I think that ⁓ I mean, ⁓ you know, I I think that one hypothesis would be that that the more that it's you genuinely putting your heart on the page that that you'd get the better effect. But I also think that it could be like I don't know what role friction, like the friction of of having to write and come up with the right word. I don't know what to what extent that

speaker-0: Study, yeah.

speaker-1: Corresponds then to an increase in happiness.

speaker-0: We right, we do think yeah, ⁓ there there's like competing hypotheses. Yeah. But I mean most people think that like if you receive a letter and the person says like, ⁓ I I used Claude to help me write the letter, like it'll somehow have a smaller f you know, I don't know, like a smaller boost. But I don't know, like if my if one of my kids sent me a letter and and the letter has real stuff in it. Like they're talking about actual things that we did together that they appreciate. You know, I don't I would really be very happy, even if they you know, they they used claw to help them write it. But it but anyway, it's ⁓ it's an empirical question and I'm excited to find out.

speaker-1: Yeah, no, I'm excited too. I've always wondered about with ⁓ with gratitude, does it ever backfire on people? Because I like do you ever think like where people are like I don't really feel happy. I don't feel grateful about anything and then Yeah. And so

speaker-0: interested yeah I'm very I'm very interested in in b in backfiring effects. I actually actually have a a whole chapter on and when when the pursuit of happiness can backfire if you're interested. but so with gratitude it kinda depends what you mean by backfiring. So for example, sometimes ⁓ expressing gratitude can lead to negative emotions or or like not necessarily negative but kind of unpleasant feelings. So for example, indebted a feeling of indebtedness or for or a feeling of humility, right? And which those are not necessarily bad things to experience and actually like You can think it's adaptive, right? Like maybe gratitude, that's why we have gratitude, is it makes us feel indebted and then it helps us reciprocate and pay back, even if it doesn't feel so bad. In fact, th I've been told that in some languages the word grateful is the same as the word indebted, which is interesting, right? It's kinda really the same. ⁓ but yeah, but sometimes these same same thing with acts of kindness. Like sometimes it backfires. Like you do an act of kindness for someone

speaker-1: Interesting.

speaker-0: And they don't appreciate it, you know. Or like they it makes them feel worse because they feel like incompetent 'cause you have to help them and or or it's just not it doesn't work. Or with gr gratitude, sometimes it's just really awkward and uncomfortable to share gratitude. One of my students actually did a line ⁓ started a line of research. She's actually now a professor in Singapore, Lisa Walsh, but her husband is is for sing from Singapore. So she got she got the perfect job. and ⁓ and so she was studying graduate letters so she decided one day to like write him a letter of gratitude and read it out loud to him and she did and she said it it really backfired, like it was really c uncomfortable and awkward. And so she thought maybe there's some cultural differences in how we respond to gratitude expressions. So yeah anyway, lots of questions in that area.

speaker-1: So I think that sometimes when people think about ⁓ people who are happy and they think about people who have a lot of advantages, right? 'Cause I think that we have this implicit theory that happiness is something that is reserved for people like when they're really good looking or that they have a really you know, really good jobs and ⁓ you know, or they've got a like a really great education. Is is there a relationship between these things? Like like is is happiness like do we see more happiness in people who've kind of got it all going on, or are we all kind of equally miserable?

speaker-0: Yeah, it's kind of a paradox. Actually, I was just talking to someone about sort of what what we call extrinsic goals, right? Sort of like those are like money, power, fame, beauty. You know, we think those are the things that are gonna make us happy. But the truth is, people who have, you know, money, power, fame, beauty actually are happier than people who don't. It's really the pursuit of those things that are seems to be associated with not associated with happiness or even associated with unhappy. So so materialists are unhappy because they're pursuing material things and money. But having but you know it's a big correlation between happiness and money. and so and so yeah, so p happy people do have more advantages. It's just that like it's just not as a strong, I would say, a finding as you think it would be. because as we know, it's a lot more. Like we certainly know lots of people who are unhappy who have those advantages. like money to use money as an example, lots of research shows that you know money does make you happy. as long as you spend it right, right? As long as you spend it on like connection and growth. And then my favorite finding w from a few years ago, this is so great, is that ⁓ money is correlated with happiness but only for people who are happy to begin with, right? So if you're already a happy person, more money makes you happier. If you're not a happy person, more money doesn't make you happier. Probably 'cause you just find more things to compare yourself to or

speaker-1: Well, right. Yeah, I was I was thinking that it was probably about social comparison, right? Because I I think that some of the most unhappy people are people if i if you can't keep your social comparisons in check, you're just bound to be miserable, especially and I think in our current environment where you have social media and everything else where you can constantly compare yourself to better people who are better off than you. And I think that the more money you have, the h the ⁓ the more, you know, that you're like if if you're somebody who's prone to comparison, the people you start comparing yourself to are just like outrageously wealthy. You know, she's like

speaker-0: And and quote my dissertation was about happiness and social comparison.

speaker-1: So funny. And so, you know, you and you also talked about in in in your book and you talked about what what I thought was really cool was, you know, you kind of broke down like what the different pieces are to happiness and like to the genetic component and you know, and sort of the the fact that we hedonically adapt and you suggested that there's maybe about forty percent that we have control over, which is a lot. I mean, you know, this idea that we have, you know, control over about forty c forty percent of ⁓ how happy we feel. and ⁓ and so and you talked about the things like, you know, gratitude and and kindness. We also talked a lot about ⁓ cultivating ⁓ and investing in relationships and the health of your physical body. Right. So essentially it's like you're being a well-rounded person where you are somebody who has a gratitude practice, so you're you're you're noticing the things that you have that are happening that are going well and you've got good relationships and you've got healthy bodies. And like what, you know, for for somebody who's like looking for a place to start, 'cause that's a lot, right? This idea that you need to have a healthy body and whatever, whe where would you think somebody should start when it comes to just like trying to improve the way that they feel? And improving the ⁓ frequency of positive emotions relative to neg negative emotions now.

speaker-0: Well first I wanna just say something just correct something, which is that that forty percent from like more than twenty years ago I ⁓ have you know no longer believe in that number. I think that number was just ⁓ it was just a heuristic. It was just kind of like an estimate that people have sort of taken too seriously. And I have a paper where I where we Ken Sheldon, my collaborator and I kind of discuss that and we sort of refute what we said before, but but it doesn't really matter. So the point is that it that, you know, there's a lot of control that we have about our happiness. I just can't

speaker-1: So so can can we just I I wanna I wanna circle back to that really quick though. Do what like so but t tell me a little bit about about how about revisiting that forty percent. I'm just really curious, like what

speaker-0: It's it's a lo it's a really long story that's very technical. Like at the time we wrote that paper, which was like two thousand three, you know, like more than twenty ago, we looked at all the literature and we kind of based on the literature that was out there, you know, we made this sort of computation, this estimate. You know, now there's like hundreds more studies, you know.

speaker-1: Right, right.

speaker-0: And you know, and i it was really just it was just meant as like a really yeah, it was just meant as an estimate and then it just sort of took off and now it's everywhere. Like if you Google, you know, it's called the happiness manual, it's all over. ⁓ and so I can't I can't seem to get away from

speaker-1: So do you think it's more or less or it depends? I mean 'cause I'm guessing the answer is is is

speaker-0: The the point is that I we just should not give numbers. ⁓ yeah, so I guess I learned a lesson.

speaker-1: Okay, so so where do we begin then? So we have some how about this, we have some element of our of our happiness that we do have control over. And ⁓ so where do we start? Do we start with the health of our body? Do we start with the health of our relationships? What do what do you think?

speaker-0: I there's I guess it's a different question between ⁓ there's a question about where to begin versus what's most important and maybe they're the same answer. ⁓ 'cause you can begin it depends on sort of your resources and your values and your habits and your traits, you know. Right. ⁓ but really the most important is is connection relationships. This is kind of what I said before. Right. Really the key to happiness is feeling connected and and and I say, you know, when people ask me kind of what's your number one t happiness tip and I used to hate that question because I'm like, I don't know, it depends. but now my my number one happiness tip Is to go out and have a conversation with someone and sort of really feel connected. And but don't have a small talk conversation. Go go deeper. So, and and sort of because you will feel more connected and loved and make the other person feel more connected and loved, you know, when you can have kind of a relatively deep conversation with someone where you're really sharing, you're listening, you're showing curiosity. so yeah, that's what that it's it's it's it's not hard, right? We can all do it, even if you're an introvert, we can all do it, we can do it, we can we can do it with a stranger, we can do it with with a family Really conversations are kind of like the currency. A relationship is really a series of conversations. And so

speaker-1: And do you think like for is it the same for you said it's the same for introverts and extroverts? So for somebody who like really doesn't like like who doesn't get energy, who feels like they're they're ta they're having their energy sucked out of them when they are interacting with other people, do you you think that too?

speaker-0: Well here's the thing. I think my ⁓ per my honest opinion, Susan Kane wrote this book called Quiet, which by the way is a I book. Love the book. Yeah, right, 'cause me too, I actually read it also in Far for my children. I and actually I was on on you know I interviewed with her not too long ago. I love her, but she sort of popularizes this idea that that introverts gain ener you know, that e extroverts are energized by social social con connections and introverts are depleted. We don't really have research evidence to support this. there's some evidence that, you know, actually extroverts get really tired. I mean 'cause they socialize so much, they actually get very depleted by socializing, partly because they socialize more. So actually, partly like we really need more empirical evidence to support this. We did a study where we asked people to either act extroverted or introverted for one week. But we but we had people define this is an experiment, but we had the participants define what we what we meant by acting. Well, wait, we didn't use the word extroverted, but we said sociable, you know, energetic, assertive, etc. but but they didn't have to go be the life of the party, right? So so by being more extroverted, maybe you could just like you know just talk a little bit more at lunch. With your friends or call someone up. And so we were shocked to find that both introverts and extroverts had you know the exact same, there were no differences. They both were highly rewarded by during the extroversion week. They got happier and all lots of outcomes sort of increased. And actually, on some outcomes, people got less happy during the introversion week. And it was just if it was just a week, so it's possible if it was longer, we would have different effects. And there's a bunch of studies that show the same. There's one study out of Australia that does have does does show that introverts don't benefit as much. so there's there's that finding, ⁓ I concede. So maybe we need to do more research to kind of get to the bottom of this.

speaker-1: Yeah, I I do think I really do think that ⁓ that having conversations, even like get you know, having like chit chatting with the cashier, you know, ⁓ or things that we do just to connect with other people and like actually look at them and like see them, you know, like actually see them as a as a human. I I I do I can see that that can have huge benefits even to like really strict introverts where it's just like having that quick moment of connection, even if it takes over your

speaker-0: And it's not hard. It's just a little, and as you may know, Nick Eppeli University of Chicago Booth does tons of research on this. He has a new book coming out. Actually, you should have him on your podcast next month called A Little More Social. But you know, his research is all about how we underestimate how happy we'll be by talking to someone on the train next to us or on the airplane and or to the barista, you know. ⁓ it's you know, it's just a little bit of it's funny, because I don't I don't like to chit-chat. I don't really chat people up. ⁓ so even I like I know the research that it says it'll make me happier. And when I do, when I talk to the Uber driver, I am happier. You know, I'm alm I mean of course it's an average. All all psychological findings, right, are just average effects. So of course there there might be some bad conversations along the way, but on average you'll be happier if you talk a little bit more to other people, other humans.

speaker-1: Yeah, I think that I've I think that humans are ⁓ I think that our lay theories about like what's gonna make us happy are just all totally wrong. You know what I mean? Like I think that we think that we're gonna be like like make us happy is like not having to work. You know, like people think, ⁓ I'd be so happy if I didn't have to work and I could just, you know, do whatever and lounge around and whatever and that actually creates a feeling of incredible anxiety and meaninglessness. Yeah, you know Yeah. And and so a lot of the things that we like need to do that make us actually feel good and create meaning in our life are are oftentimes things that have a little bit of friction for us. Right. And in yeah, including the conversation with the Uber driver where it's like you don't really, you know, it might make you feel a little uncomfortable and ⁓ but then ultimately it like registers a social connection and then it improves your well being. And yeah, that's like one thing I've definitely learned about myself. has been ⁓ has been that my my intuitions about like what's actually gonna make me happy are usually dead wrong.

speaker-0: The puzzle mine too, even though I know the research, and the puzzle is like, well you're the evolutionary psychologist, like why why you know, it seems like that would not serve us well to have such wrong intuitions. Maybe it just sort of doesn't really matter if we're feeling good, right?

speaker-1: I I I th I think that it's because throughout most of our evolutionary history everything was like baked into struggle. And so pleasure was baked into struggle. And now you've got marketers who've extracted the pleasure from the struggle. And so like we think that we're just looking for the pleasure. And so we're kind of going after those things and whatever seems most frictionless. ⁓ because ultimately evolutionarily that would have been rewarding and it would have been, you know, again, baked into all of these things that we had to do to create meaning. And now that the meaning has been stripped away from so many things, you've got porn without relationships, right? You've got ultra processed food that has no fiber and nutrients. You've got social media that gives you this little hit of like, you know, social whatever, like ⁓ catching up on gossip, ⁓ but without the friction of having to interact with other people. And so I think that we chase the reward. ⁓ and now that it's been stripped from all of the things that create meaning, I think that it leads to all of these different traps that we get stuck into. And so Yeah. And so I think that I think that it's sort of an evolutionary mismatch that has led us to be so, you know, so wrong, ⁓ oftentimes about what we think is going to make us happy, ⁓ instead of like thinking about what's going to create meaning. And like the one thing I've had to like spend a lot of time thinking about in my own life is like understanding that, yeah, you need to do things that are going to create friction and make you tired and kind of a little bit overwhelmed sometimes, but ultimately it's gonna lead to better well being and make you feel like you have a ⁓ ⁓ life that's being lived well and and I found that to be true in my in my own life. Yeah to do you think that ⁓ I you know some people have and and and we're gonna pivot soon and talk about being loved because I'm really excited about that topic. But I want one more question about happiness. And that is is it possible you know some people have a really hard life, you know, like whether they've experienced some sort of a traumatic event or, you know, they just like life is hard for them. You know, they have to work a couple of jobs

speaker-0: I agree.

speaker-1: Like is there space still for building happiness even when you've had a ⁓ like you're having a tough time, like life is a little hard for you.

speaker-0: the same time. Yeah, okay, because the two two answers. Certainly I I had a really traumatic childhood, a l and adolescence. So that actually made me a happier person today. But that's a l that's a different answer because I'm no longer having that experience, right? So it's like what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, you know, makes you happier. So that happened to me. But if you're having a hard life right now, I I do absolutely believe it it it really depends. I mean, if all of your energy is like sort of survival and safety and you know putting food on the table You know, taking care of your children, I mean that th it would be it would leave very little capacity, right, for happiness. but like I I actually had an example in one of my books about a woman who whose mom was dying. So her mom is dying, and it's really awful, and she loves her mom and she's taking care of her. At the same time, she's dealing with insurance companies and it's this horrible financial thing that she has to deal with and it's very stressful. But like every day she's able to take like there's a farmer's market, for example, and she can go for like forty-five minutes or an hour and really enjoy you know, going to the 'cause like her favorite thing to go to the farmer's market. and so you can compartmentalize but it's hard, right? And like really not think about that. And also like tell yourself this is good. Like this is you're gonna be a better, you know, caretaker of your mom if you really like refresh and take care of yourself, right? For that for those 45 minutes. So so I do think it's possible, but it is really hard, right? Because it you have to turn off your brain ⁓ from thinking about those things. Because you know again it's adaptive for us when there's a problem to sort of stop and think about how to solve that problem, right? And and and and sort of like we keep ruminating about it. you know, ⁓ anyway, so

speaker-1: I I really Yeah, I l I love that story. It actually just reminded me of ⁓ la last year, ⁓ my husband was going through cancer treatment and it was like not it didn't go well at first and we didn't know what was gonna happen next and it was really terrible and every morning I would take a walk and on the walk I would just like notice the birds and notice the squirrels and the bunny and the sound of acorns under my shoe. And it was like I took that time not only, you know, to ⁓ be out in nature, which is also really positive for, you know, mental health and and physical health, you know, moving my body around. ⁓ but it was like I just really took in ⁓ a daily practice of noticing and and and focusing my energy outward instead of inward and ruminating and worrying and you know, trying to think about how to solve this problem that wasn't mine to solve. Right. And ⁓ and I found that ⁓ that doing that it was really it it was really powerful. I mean, that was like one of the most powerful things I've ever gone through. I mean, it's the most intense one of the most intense things I've ever gone through as human being. But one of the most most powerful things was was those daily walks where it was like it was just focusing on what I could notice and yeah, and and and the beauty in there. And I had totally I had totally forgotten about this my own life experience until you were telling me that

speaker-0: Example. I'm sorry I had to go through that. ⁓ and I think they call it ⁓ like a meditation, it's like a meditative walk, right? It's like a meditation walk.

speaker-1: Yeah, and it yes, and it and it allowed me ⁓ to maintain, you know, a level of of well-being even in the midst of a very challenging time in my life. and yeah, and anyway, that was ⁓ a a a reminder of that. So I guess, yeah, it works. ⁓ That works. ⁓ and ⁓ I d you know, I wanna I wanna talk now and a pivot from ⁓ talking about ⁓ explicitly just like how to be happy and cultivate happiness, which by the way, any of you ⁓ who do not have ⁓ what Sony's got two books on on happiness. ⁓ the one I've got sitting right next to me is ⁓ is the how of happiness. And I love this book for a bunch of different reasons, but it includes a bunch of quizzes and stuff, which I really appreciate ⁓ as somebody who likes to collect data and likes rating things on scales. ⁓ and this is really nice for those of you who want to do me search and better understand kind of where you are at in your own life vis a vis happiness and then what types of activities might help. to ⁓ to increase your happiness. And among the things that you describe in your ⁓ in your book is this idea of cultivating relationships and feeling loved. And that is now the topic of your new book with a Harry Reese, which is ⁓ how to feel loved, which ⁓ I love I love that cover. I love it so much.

speaker-0: I do I I use. Yeah.

speaker-1: Yeah, and it's and which is rare. Like I don't know about you, but I've had some real disagreements with with my publishers about

speaker-0: Like they they send it to us and we're like it's a paper heart, you know, just folded a little bit. We were like, Yes, it's perfect. ⁓ yeah, that rarely happens, yeah.

speaker-1: Yeah, no, it's it's it's it's awesome. And I it you know, what what I really loved about this book is when I saw it, I immediately felt like the the title, I immediately felt seen. And the reason I felt seen was that ⁓ I have gone through periods in my life where I've found it hard to feel loved. ⁓ and and I d I didn't really realize that that was universal. You know, I always thought that it was something that was ⁓ like wrong with me. either wrong with me in terms of like I don't have the capacity for feeling loved to the extent that I'm supposed to, or that maybe I'm just not lovable, right? And that there's something wrong with me. And so ⁓ wh like how common is it to not feel loved and and and why? Like why do we feel this way? Yeah.

speaker-0: ⁓ first of all, I thank you for that thing that I just took notes. so we ⁓ so Harry and I did a ⁓ survey expressly for the book and we asked people like how often do they not feel loved or not not as frequently as they wish. And 70% said there's at least one relationship in their life that they where they don't feel as loved as they'd like to. And in and forty percent said they don't feel as loved as they'd like to by their romantic partner. ⁓ I actually think those numbers are understatements, but that was just sort of one, you know, one study, one sample that we we had fairly representative. so yeah, I think it's it's fairly common that we we can be c surrounded, kinda like loneliness, right? You can s be surrounded by people but still feel lonely. You can be surrounded, you can have connections, you can have you know good relationships, you people who you can have people who love you so you can you can be loved but not feel loved. And so the book is really about then what do you do? You know, what are you doing that you know, can you yeah, feel more loved and and can you make can you make other people feel more loved too? 'Cause it could be it can also we we have we didn't really think about it, but it could be when we were writing it, ⁓ you might be reading the book because there's someone in your life that you feel like they're not being feeling loved by you, ⁓ and and you're not sure what to do. You know, you feel like you're doing everything and you're you're not sure. So, ⁓ Yeah, so I ⁓ we I think it's the best thing. Both Perry and I think it's really the best thing we've ever done in our careers. You know, sometimes you just sort of know that that and so we're yeah, we're really excited about this.

speaker-1: book. Yeah. So I think that a lot of times when people are feeling unloved, ⁓ they feel like they have must have done something wrong. Right. Like that that they're just not really lovable. ⁓ or there's something about them that's turning people off. And and in this book, one of the ideas that you talk about is that, you know, that's usually not the case. Right. It's not that we're unlovable when we're feeling unloved, that a lot of it just has to do with ⁓ the way that we're experiencing the love that we have. ⁓ and so one of the things that you talk about that was so interesting in the context of ⁓ of how to feel love and experience this was this idea of the relationship seesaw and I am hoping that you can tell us what the relationship seesaw is and how we can use that to help ourselves feel love.

speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. ⁓ yeah, great. I I actually I remember kind of working it through with my I think my daughter was thirteen at the time, ⁓ in a coffee shop. and so we we call it a seesaw, but we spell it S E A, having to do with water or the sea. And actually I'm looking at ⁓ the ocean right now from from my ⁓ window. so imagine you and I, Sarah, like we're sitting on the opposite ends of a seesaw, but we're submerged in water. And so only kind of the tops of ourselves is sh are showing. And why is that? And that's because, and it's it's kind of amazing when you see it. That's like how we are in in in normal life. Like we don't really show most of ourselves to others. Another way to think about it is like we have these walls around us and sort of and and and they help us protect ourselves, right? But we don't really let people in. And so anyway, so we're we're sort of submerged. I'm only showing you usually just the kind of the positive side, you know, the tip, the polished tip. And so again, why is that, you know, and and we because we try to like we want people to have a positive impression of us. So like right now I'm talking to you and I want you to think that I'm smart and interesting and funny and kind, right, and a good person. And so I'm kind of sh I'm trying I'm trying to impress you, right? We're trying to impress each other. And that happens all the time. It's very human, it's very normal, whether it's on a with a neighbor on a first date or any kind of professional meeting. And so yeah, so I'm just we're really just showing to each other kind of that positive side, those positive tips. And so, but that doesn't make us feel loved, right? So if I'm only showing you my positive side. ⁓ you know, you I might succeed in impressing you and I might succeed in you like admiring me. Think about all those influencers with followers, right? So they're admired, but do they feel loved? And I would say no, because to feel loved, you really need to know me. It's really being known is the key to feeling. So get that's what the seesaw is about. So what happens then? We're on the seesaw. So so basically the the other key that we say is that if I want to feel more loved, I need to go first. Which seems a little unfair. I need to go first and try to make you feel more loved. So how do do that? I start by showing genuine curiosity in you. Right? So I'm thinking, what something about Sarah? What what do I want to know? She once mentioned a passion that she has for astronomy. So I'm gonna sh I'm gonna ask her about astronomy or whatever. and or just ask her about, you know, her day and her inner life. And so the idea is that I'm sitting in the seesaw, ⁓ by showing curiosity, it's like I'm pressing down on on the my part of the seesaw. And you what that happen what what ha what what that does is it is it helps you lift up a little bit higher out of the water. And so when you're lifting up, you're basically showing more of yourself to me and you're sharing. And this is what we call this a sharing mindset. And you're able to sort of share a little bit more of your full self. Not just the positive side, but you know, other sides. It doesn't have to be negative, right? But it could be, you know, how what really matters to you? You know, what sort of what does it mean to be you? And then you're telling your story and then I listen. So again, we're on the Seesaw, and then when so I'm kind of going through everything really fast, you know, but it's kind of a nice summary of the whole book. And then I'm really listening, and I'm and we're most of us are bad listeners, including me. and I'm listening to learn. I'm really taking it in. I'm not just rehearsing my next thought, right? And I'm really listening. And so then you're feeling safe and you're trusting and you're inspired to share even more. And so I'm again, I'm kind of lifting you up in the water, and I'm also showing warmth and I'm showing acceptance. and then the the real kind of tricky part is like how does the CSAW move? Because then what happens is I I hope you reciprocate. Right. So again you're an evolutionary psychologist, so you know the the reciprocity norm is so important, right? Where would humans be without the reciprocity norm? Like you do something for me, I do something for you. It's it's one of the most powerful rules of social behavior. And so that is most of the time, not all the time, most of the time that's gonna happen where you're gonna reciprocate. And then you're gonna be inspired to show curiosity in me and lift me ⁓ out of the water a little bit. And then I'll share. You listen. And so it's kind of this dynamic process of being lifted and lifting the other person.

speaker-1: Yeah. So I think that ⁓ I what I love about this is it I mean, it's essentially like it's just allowing you to I mean, to feel loved yourself, you need to be seen is is right what I'm hearing. And that and that to make other people feel loved, we need to let them know that we see them. And and I and I and I love this because I mean it's like one way or the other, I think that it's positive, right? Because if if if it turns out that I, you know, want to I want to feel loved by you. And so I am going to do things that allow you to, you know, sort of show yourself to me and then show, you know, appreciation and genuine curiosity and ask you questions and let you know that I'm listening. ⁓ and then if you don't reciprocate, then that's also really important information for me, right? Because I I think that I I think that it can be I always tell my daughter, I have a I have a college age daughter, and so I talk to her a lot and and she's at the age in life where she needs a lot of life advice. And one of the things I always tell her is that the, you know, whatever happens as a result of the truth, in other words, of showing your f true self is is positive, even if it doesn't feel good. Wow. Because I think that, you know, when we reveal ourselves, ⁓ that it's like it gets us closer in alignment to living a life that's truly ours. Right. And so some because sometimes the things that we think that we want don't fit us. Right. And so, ⁓ it's sort of I think it's a is a rule of thumb is like showing up as yourself is always the best thing that you can do. Because then if it even if it turns out that you fail, like if it turns out that I'm, you know, terrible at podcasting, but I show up as myself when I'm doing it, then that probably means it wasn't it's not well suited for me. And then I can go back to writing books, you know, and like do something else, you know. ⁓ beautiful. I'm I'm totally

speaker-0: Writing all this down, this is really beautiful. With what we're saying, yeah.

speaker-1: Yeah, no but I but but I but I really I love that. And ⁓ go ahead, what were you gonna say?

speaker-0: I was gonna say the because because we because I've been thinking like when the when because people keep asking me, what if the other person doesn't reciprocate? Right? So you're doing everything, like you're sharing yourself and not just your positive qualities, but your weaknesses and shortcomings and your sort of messy insides. And then they don't and you're listening to them and you're showing curiosity and then they don't reciprocate. And so I've been thinking of it as like this is a negative, right? And so I'll I'll say and people say, What happens when you what what what should I do if they don't reciprocate? And I'll and I'll say, Well, maybe you need to walk away. Maybe you need to pause that relationship. Maybe you just need to maybe it's a family member, you can't walk away. And you sort of need to accept that this is not a person that you're gonna feel more loved by. And so I've been thinking of it as, you know, a negative. And so I I kinda love, you know, your addition to this, which is like, well, it's both mixed. Yes, it it's negative bad, but

speaker-1: Yeah, but I think it's positive. Yeah, always. You know, even it does even though it doesn't feel good, right? Because I I mean and I have family, I have family members that I have relationships with where I would say that, you know, in terms of the, you know, n not really like showing up as as I am and and it's not I don't feel like it's reciprocated in the way that it should be. ⁓ and I think everybody's got people in their lives like that where they and and ⁓ but recognizing that that's who they are. Right. And that that's the relationship that you have. I I think that if you understand that and ⁓ and you also because I I'm also one of those types of people where ⁓ I tend to have a lot of grace with people where I just sort of know I I kind of assume that everybody's doing the best thing that that they can, you know, and and if you assume that like this is just who this person is, they're doing the best that they can. It's not about me. It allows me to continue to have a good relationship with those people. just sort of it like taking them as they are. Yeah. Which is how I want them Yeah, which is w the way I wanna be received. You know, I I want people to receive me as me and understanding, you know, that sometimes it's gonna have a be a better relationship than than others. But yeah, I I think that what I what I really loved, yes, ab about this book was this idea of ⁓ of of love and feeling loved is about being seen as you. Right.

speaker-0: Like s like you're actually showing kind of the as you said, the truth about you because I guess you could feel seen when they Well, you y it's rare to feel seen when they don't really know you. I was gonna say, ⁓ no, no, I think we you and I are really kindred spirits because I 'cause I often talk about this, ⁓ and I think as as the older I've gotten, the more I feel like what what you're feeling, which is sort of this idea, and actually I learned it from a coach, which is that, yeah, when someone isn't showing up for you, my my coach, her name is Emily, and and she would always say to me, She's like, Sonia, if they could, they would, but they can't. It's like they love Lack the capacity. They just can't. And sort of having compassion, I don't always want to continue the you're you're maybe you're more positive or I don't know, more able to continue the relationship. Sometimes I don't continue the relationship. But I still have compassion and understanding. And again, it's like if they could, if this person, if they could apologize, they would. Because sometimes you just want someone to apologize, right? And they just won't. If they could, they would, but they can't. And so I just I always and I repeat that to a lot of my friends, and that now my friends all the Repeat it to others because I think it's such a great piece of wisdom. ⁓ Yeah, and it's it's really related to one of the mindsets we talk about in our book, which which we call the multiplicity mindset, which is really seeing people in all of our complexity, right? And so, and that is so hard. There's so many tests of this because we're like a quilt of both positive and negative traits and behaviors and emotions. And ⁓ and and we know this, and yet so many times I'll tell someone this person did something. And they are like, I would never, you know, talk to that person again. And they just cannot hold in their minds that you can do something bad and yet still be a good and there's some extreme examples. I mean, I we can talk about, you know, and they could still be a good husband and father, you know, and but they did this bad thing, right? ⁓ I have a friend who went to prison and you know, he's lost, I would say, eighty percent of his friends. ⁓ and some of my friends are like, Why you know, I And I he he you know, he did his time, he's very repentant, he's really ashamed, he's a really, really good person in many, many other ways. And I and but ⁓ many people just cannot see him with that multiplicity lens. It's like they let this one behavior define his whole life, his whole personality. And that's it's so it's hard it's hard sort of see people as complex, messy humans. Yeah.

speaker-1: Yeah, I actually really I loved ⁓ and I and we'll go through the five ⁓ mindset shifts in just a moment, but I I really loved that multiplicity mindset because I like and and we are kindred spirits, ⁓ because I've always I've always had this and I don't know if it's because of some things that went on during childhood. ⁓ I've got a very complex relationship with my dad, ⁓ my biological father. ⁓ but I but I love him and I'm able to have a good relationship with him because I have this multiplicity mindset. And recognize that it's like I don't because I don't believe in I mean, with the exception of psychopaths, of course, I don't believe in like good people, bad people. I believe that people are very complex and that most people are capable of doing good and bad things. And for some people it's it's worse things than others. And and I think that even people who do bad things sometimes can have good elements of them. And it's just a matter of understanding who they are, right? Again, using your seesaw analogy. It's like like under like seeing them as who they are, right? accepting that and then understanding the relationship that you need to have with them based on who they are and what their sort of multiplicity is. And I think that that to me has been one of the, you know, r reasons that I I think that I I have as much happiness in in life as I do is because I I I think that I I've I I really live that. ⁓ And so anyway, so I really ⁓ that that particular mindset really resonated with ⁓ with me. And so I I wanna quickly just g go through these. I know that we are running we don't have that much time left, but I wanna talk about ⁓ tell me about the mindset shifts and we can kind of go through them one by one. But ⁓ you start by talking about sharing, which I think we've talked about, which is just this idea. of of you know allowing you whoever it is that you'd like to be loved by whether it's your partner or whether it's a child or a parent or a relative or friend, is is sharing and and sort of revealing yourself and allowing your partner or your friend or whatever to reveal themselves, right? To sh to show us themselves. Right, right. Yeah, ⁓ go ahead.

speaker-0: ⁓ yeah, so basically all of the it's it's gonna be easy to list the mindsets because we've talked about all of them already. and so ⁓ yeah, so sharing, as you said, so the really the key to feeling loved is is to be known and to know the other person, right? And you can't be known and know the other person without sharing. And sharing doesn't mean dumping all your traumas or secrets right away. There's you know you know, you want to share at the right pace. You really need to have emotional intelligence and read the room, read the other person, gauge their curiosity as you're sharing, right? And so that's the call to sharing mindset. And then the we have a listening to lear ⁓ mindset called listening to learn, right? So when they're when you're sharing, I'm listening to learn instead of listening to respond. So usually when we're listening, you know, we're kind of mentally rehearsing our our our next response instead of truly listening. I th I I read a survey recently that said that 25% of the time when we're trying to listen, we're actually our mind is wandering, which is you know a lot. ⁓ then curiosity, so so actually and curiosity is really showing genuine interest in the other person and asking questions. I think I'm actually doing a study right now with a student where we're gonna test sort of question asking, which I think is a such an important part of social life. I will I I tell my kids to ask questions, to ask a lot of questions, right? People want to be asked questions about the themselves and then Nick Effley shows that we underestimate the extent to which people really crave to be asked personal questions and deep questions, right? We think it'll be uncomfortable or or prying, but most of us crave to be seen, right? And to be to be answering those questions. And so, and the difference between the difference between listening and curiosity is really enthusiasm, right? Because you can be a great listener and get a get an A plus in your listening, kind of like when you're listening to a lecture. And not really be curious, right? We've all gone to got and gotten E pluses on a test, right? And not been curious. We just do it 'cause we have to. ⁓ so curiosity has sort of an enthusiasm component. And then we already talked about multiplicity, which is when you're listening to the other person, it's really seeing them as a quilt of both positive and negative traits and qualities, and seeing them in their messy complexity and and with acceptance. And also, by the way, turning the multiplicity mindset onto yourself and then seeing yourself as a complex person, that's all that's a whole other we we talk about that too. Whole other thing that's really complicated for people, right? Because we ⁓ sometimes we need to forgive ourselves, right? And accept our our shortcomings. ⁓ and then the mindset we haven't really talked about, but It's kind of the most obvious one for relationships we call the open heart mindset. and the reason I say it's obvious is that most relationships that are kind of stable, you know, will I hope, you know, are characterized by the open heart mindset. Because it's basically showing warmth and kindness towards the other person, believing in them, wanting them to be happy, right? I mean, I would think that if you don't have an open heart mindset towards ⁓ a partner or a good friend or a family member, that you know, you probably do not have a a relationship or much of a relationship, right? So I I would actually argue that most of us have the open heart mindset, but we don't have the other four, which is again sharing, listening, curiosity, and ⁓ open. ⁓ and multiplicity, we actually Harry and I actually developed a quiz. ⁓ actually I'll give you some context. When I first when we first wrote the book, I sent it to a bunch of friends. And two of my friends who are both guys said, love the book. You know, they gave me comments and they said your book led me to break up with my girlfriend. Both of them broke up with their girlfriends because they read the book. And we we were shocked. We're like, what? What why? Because we thought of it as a sort of prescriptive like using it to help you feel more loved. But they treated it as a diagnostic. So they looked at the mindsets and they held them as a mirror to their relationship. And one guy said, You know, I realize my girlfriend is not curious about my work or you know my life. And the other guy said, My girlfriend's not sharing, I'm not sharing either, and we're not and she's not listening. ⁓ and so we actually created a a quiz and by the way if you go to ⁓ how to feel loved dot com you can find everything including the quiz so you can it's a just a five minute quiz that it'll help you know which mindset you're sort of strongest in and which you're in most need of improvement, which I think people really like to sort of understand that and then get tips for, you know, which one I know, which one do you think it would be for you, Sarah.

speaker-1: For me the which one do I think I'd be strongest in? Yeah. And then I'm I'm looking at my list. So so I think that I'm probably best at multiplicity mindset. As noted, it's just it's just kind of the way I operate.

speaker-0: Which I think most people are are weak at, so that's like that's great.

speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I ⁓ I am probably ⁓ the and I'm also kind of curious. Like I'm I'm a kind of a intellectually curious person, which I think, you know, is sort of part of the reason that we're in science is like I like to ask questions and I'm curious about people. ⁓ I think the thing that the listening to learn not to react thing is hard for me. and ⁓ and I I think that it's because of, you know, it's like I'm a perfectionist and so like I always want everything to, you know, I want to keep the conversation going and I wanna You know what I mean? Have the right answer and and sound smart and yeah. Yeah.

speaker-0: And I actually got some great advice about listening to learn. ⁓ and Harry and I actually went to a workshop a listening workshop where we had to learn how to listen. And that was really hard. because you really have to like listen like you're trying to memorize, like you're gonna be tested on it, you know. Right. And the best advice I got about listening is think about listening like watching a film. So when you're watching a film, as unl unless you're a film critic, right, and you're writing a review or something, you're not formulating an answer or like a response. You're just taking it in. Like you're just sitting there and you're just taking it in. And so they're like, if someone's talking, just kinda taking it in, taking it in like it's a movie. ⁓ I love that.

speaker-1: I love that too. Like I I I will try to use that moving forward 'cause I think that ⁓ I it it's it's like a I think that that's probably the one I'm the weak the weakest at. What what's yours? Like what is your what is your

speaker-0: Yeah, I I'm pretty I'm good at multiplicity, I'm very good at open heart. Yeah, I think my my Mika says listening or curiosity. I mean I'm a curious person, but social curiosity, right, which is curiosity about people. you know sometimes I'm just talking to someone, I'm like I just can't find something. I've tried to ask them questions, just can't find something interesting in them. And I know every human has something of interest to offer. Maybe you have to just get it at the get at that ⁓ somehow. Get them lift them up, you know, with the C Song. By asking the right questions with the right tone, the right pace, right? So yeah, that's that's hard.

speaker-1: You know, one of the I I think that in this day and age with social media and everybody is like showing the best version of themselves, this like carefully curated, you know, filming eight different versions of the video before they find the one that they're gonna post. And, you know, I I think that it's harder than ever to feel seen. I think I think that ⁓ that we are just like these av like a lot of people feel like they're avatars. And ⁓ and so I really this I love how to feel loved. And and I think that it really is ⁓ in a lot of ways ⁓ a the cure to that issue, right? Like for yourself, like understanding that, you know, that that you can help other people feel seen. So that way you can first, you know, like you said with the seesaw, you can help your partner or your friend or whoever it is, ⁓ help them feel loved. But understanding that taking those steps to be vulnerable and to show your authentic self. I mean, cause with some of these things, you know, we can do without ⁓ having to wait for somebody to ask us questions, right? We can just show up as ourselves and be honest and be true.

speaker-0: Exactly. And you know, we mentioned this and this is a good I guess point to to end on, is that you know, we we won't we won't ever really feel seen or loved if people don't really know who we are on the inside, right? Because if we're hiding, you know, if we're only showing, as you said, like making that perfect video, posting about our vacation and all our best days, ⁓ we'll always wonder would that person love me, still love me, still see me if they knew what I'm really like on the inside, right? And I've mentioned how, you know, I can't imagine that influencers ⁓ feel loved, right? Because they they may feel admired, ⁓ but the you know, you're really not known. You're really not known. So ⁓ so yeah, again, the the key the key is being known is showing more of your full self to others. And I think ⁓ you know, taking we can all take little steps to do that, you know, starting today.

speaker-1: Well thank you for showing up as your full self today on the XX Lab and talking about your wonderful books. And where can before we get off, where can ⁓ people find you?

speaker-0: So the the the easiest way, yeah, is just ⁓ how to feel loved dot com. Just the title of the book, how to feel loved dot com, because that also links to my other, you know, the other works. Yeah, that's the I have yeah, I have one too. and y that's where you can find the quiz. And I have a TED talk that's just a five minute talk that's just kind of the summary of everything. So if you have a very short extension span, because you watch TikTok videos all day, you can just watch that five minute talk. So thank you.

speaker-1: Alright, thank you. And that's it for today's episode of the XX Lab. If you want more, subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're enjoying the show, a rating or review helps other people find it. See you next episode.