speaker-0: And also maybe approaching it differently, instead of the pressure of performance, it's the inspiration of expression. Sometimes it's also surrendering to I'm here, I'm a steward of some kind of gift and talent, I'm meant to live a certain life, and I have great faith that I'm on my path.

speaker-1: Is it okay right now? And it almost always is. Welcome to the XX Lab, where we explore the science and stories that matter to you. Today on the XX Lab, I'm sitting down with the one and only Gabby Reese. Gabby Reese is a former professional volleyball player, Nike's first female signature athlete. Fitness leader, best selling author, and one of the most recognizable voices in women's health and performance. Beyond her athletic career, she's built a life and partnership that so many people are curious about. She's been married to legendary big wave surfer Laird Hamilton for over two decades, and together they've navigated careers, family, and the realities of long term love. In this conversation, we're gonna go far beyond the highlight reel. We're going to talk about what it actually takes to stay resilient in the face of setbacks, how to deal with imposter syndrome, even when you're operating at the highest levels, and what she's learned about keeping the spark alive in a long term relationship. Gabby also shares her perspective on aging and how she's reframing it not to be something to resist, but as something to step into with strength and intention. This is a conversation about discipline, identity, relationships, and what it really means to evolve well over time. It is part of my mission to give women everywhere access to science and stories to help them live well. This is the XX Lab. I'm Dr. Sarah Hill. Let's get started. Gabby Reese, welcome to the XX Lab. Hi, so what everybody doesn't know is that Gabby and I just did 30 minutes of interviewing.

speaker-0: Hi, Sarah.

speaker-1: without me recording. And so she's so awesome and gracious that she's going to hang with me and we're going to do this again. So that way you all can actually hear the wonderful wisdom that Gabby has to impart. So thank you and like and double thank you for ⁓ being so patient with me.

speaker-0: Hey, listen, we could have had a telepathic podcast, but you know, we we have to tell people how to tune in.

speaker-1: I know, technology's just not just not ready for us. So I want to start by starting from the top and talking about childhood. And ⁓ one of the things that I heard you recently did your reset retreat, ⁓ which was a wonderful retreat for women, and one of the things that you talked about was your experience growing up and you had described it as growing up feral. Right, and and this is something I identified with. ⁓ I am the youngest of five children. Both of my parents worked full time and were on the school board and city council on top of it. And so they were busy doing their things, and then we were kind of left to run around and you know, figure our things out. ⁓ and and for me, I mean it's really had a big impact on how ⁓ I've developed and having to develop a sense of independence and all of that. ⁓ and I would be really curious to hear. what that means to you when you say that you grew up feral and also how it shaped who you are and the way that you sort of deal with the world.

speaker-0: You know, I think I used to watch T V and you get sol not that you get sold a bill of goods, but they go, ⁓ this is what your family should look like. And and from two to seven I I did not live with my parents. And during that time my father died in a plane crash and I was raised by friends of my mother, neighborhood friends, my aunt and Uncle Joe. And then I actually moved back with my mom down to the Caribbean, to the Virgin Islands, which actually was great 'cause my biological father is from Trinidad. So w weirdly, I sort of got to know something about him by growing up in that culture which became my culture. but there was no kind of like, hey, you're gonna go to this school and then when you graduate, you're gonna get this job. It was sort of like, yeah, good luck, kid. And and what that did is and even by being sort of left with other people early, it got me to tune into my own beliefs and thoughts and feelings really young. and and have the ability to trust myself. And w which was sort of good because in a way I didn't really sort of trust the adults around me 'cause they were sort of f in some ways freewheel. So I couldn't I couldn't be pushed off my point even as like an eight year old kid. You could tell me something and I'd be like, Yeah, I'm seeing something different. And I would believe that. Because I need I needed to, but when you develop that early, By the time I was 18, I had to make big decisions in my life. And I I didn't ha I wasn't conflicted. I did borrow information. Like I my coach from college, I trust her very much. I had some friends in my family. I trusted them very much. So I would I would kind of use them as a reference to make good decisions, but I didn't need somebody to tell me what to do. And if they did, I usually didn't listen. I ⁓ I I usually really went and asked myself. So I didn't have the pressure of expectation, like Who I'm supposed to be, what I'm supposed to be doing, how I'm supposed to act, what I'm supposed to believe or think or feel. I really dialed into that that voice early. And you know, we talked about it earlier, but I think when you're a young person, you do need a story. You need a story to catapult you, to push you, to make you angry, to to sort of put to rebel against. And you realize everybody has a story. And for me I ⁓ my homework has always been to can I let go of the angry part or the blame part of my story? But to actually hone in on, man, though that those situations ended up being connected to all a lot of great things that have happened in my adult life, those traits that I developed and so forth. So even though it's uncomfortable the first kind of seventeen, eighteen years, you're like, Man, I d who's in charge? Like And that was hard, but then you realize it you know, we're ad adults a lot longer w than we are kids.

speaker-1: Yeah, no, for sure. And I think that so many kids have the experience of having a lot of guardrails put around them in terms of other people's expectations where, you know, their parents expect them to go to medical school or to be an engineer or you know, and people feel very constrained by that. And I think that that constraint can be limiting, but it also can give you something to rebel against, right? Where you're like, Well, I'm not doing that. I'm not gonna be an engineer, I'm not gonna be a doctor. ⁓ so not having that How do you figure out what you want to do? Like if you if you because I think that having those, you know, when you have other people's expectations, it either provides friction or you're like, I'm not doing that, right? And so that that was always my thing. I always, whatever somebody if somebody said X, I said no, not X. Like, I don't know what it's gonna be, but it's not gonna be X. And ⁓ and so for me it was always rebelling. But then I also, you know, there's plenty of people who follow the lead, right? They follow the expectations that are set for them. So when you don't have that as serving you know, either as a point of friction that you can push up against or something that you're you know, a path you're gonna follow. How do you figure out what you have to offer the world and like what your gift is and what direction you should go into?

speaker-0: I I think, you know, for me personally, I was I'm I'm definitely not compliant, but I'm not I'm not a contrarian. Like I do live with a contrarian where if you just say, ⁓ this is the really good one, they just by nature go the opposite. So I I'm neither one. I'm always assessing and going, How d what do I think? What do I feel? ⁓ so so so I never felt the pressure to to oblige what I was supposed to do. What I will say for me is because I I did need to figure it out. I did need to support myself and kind of take care of myself and pay my bills, ⁓ that kind of oriented me always towards asking myself, who am I who am I? What am I good at? What could I contribute? What do I like? And how can I use all of that to help me survive? And in my case, it was pretty easy in that way. I'm not gonna lie, because I'm six three. You know, at that time I looked a certain way. And so there was some kind of low hanging fruit that also jibed with who I was, like in athletics, that I thought, okay, that's the most obvious easy access for me to at least start. I can I can answer the next questions later. I don't need to solve the whole puzzle now. about like what's your whole life gonna be. I didn't need to do that. I need to figure out how to survive right now. And that led me to the next, to the next, to the next and gave me breathing room to ask the next next set of questions versus okay, I'd make a life plan right now. I didn't. I need to figure out kind of the next two and three years.

speaker-1: Yeah, I've once heard ⁓ somebody told me ⁓ a piece of advice and and it was one of the smartest things that I've heard, and this is this idea that curiosity can be a life path, right? And that it's not just, you know, you shouldn't necessarily try to expect that you should be able to plan out what your entire life is gonna look like, especially for young, you know, these young adults who are in college and you know, they're just getting started and they have this expectation and now even my my children when they were in high school, ⁓ they had to have a a track. They had to choose like are you gonna be on the you know, arts track or the engineer and it and it's like they're thirteen, you know, fourteen. ⁓ and and so there's this idea I think culturally that we have that you're supposed to be laying out this grand plan. But what you're saying, and and certainly what I've learned from a lot of successful people is a lot of times it is just about being curious. And Planning you know, paying attention to what's working right now and what feels good right now, and then trusting that ultimately, you know, the you can figure out the next thing at the right time, right? When when the time comes.

speaker-0: And and I wish somebody tried to bestow this on me when I was a young. I had a mentor, my friend Peter, he's ten years older than me. I met him when I was seven. He was in a college class with my mom. He was seventeen, I was seven, my mom was like whatever, thirty. And I still know him to this day. I'm fifty-six years old. And Peter would give me books like Atlas Shrugged like all like all you know, all these books. And I think I think for me If we can shut out the noise sometimes too, first and and tune into who we are, even if we're young, I think that that guiding force, ⁓ so we're not making decisions based on pressure or fear. We're really asking ourselves thoughtfully, like, well, who who am I today? And and w what do I actually like? And and You know, you talked about the word curiosity and and ⁓ Byron Cady was the one who really tuned me into this idea of curiosity. Because I am curious, but when I went through a hard time with one of my daughters who is was a teenager at the time, instead of being like freaked out, she's like, Could you look with curiosity about what was going on? And even as we get older, I think what keeps me kind of ⁓ And I don't want to say young minded, just in my spirit. I just in my essence. ⁓ it's curiosity. And so I've always used curiosity, but also going in back inside to myself with that same curiosity and and not ⁓ not having the pressure of like trying to do it to please people. But then one more part of that was, and this is where my friend Peter really helped me. was believing somehow that I was created for something unique and special that only I could do, and that if I could listen to the inside voice, I would keep finding that path.

speaker-1: I love that. And I think that the so many of us aren't curious with ourselves because where there's so much noise coming at us, right? And and people with their expectations about what we're supposed to be doing or demands of our time. And, you know, like if you're a mother, like expectations of of motherhood, expectations from your partner, expectations from your career, that people don't slow down and ask themselves, how am I feeling? Like why am I feeling this way? Like why do I respond this way to this particular, you know, stimulus? Like why why is it that this it g makes me so upset? Or what is that about this task that I'm having to do that feels so draining to me? And I do think that being curious with ourselves, I I I think what you know, ⁓ I I think you're so right in that it it it I think it gives us that that sense of who we are that ultimately can lead us in a a direction where We're able to pursue our unique gifts, right? And and and and do the thing that is gonna make us feel most fulfilled.

speaker-0: Well and I and and also maybe approaching it differently, instead of the pressure of performance, it's the inspiration of expression. Right? It's it's like saying, Hey, I have a responsibility to be my full and whole best self because if I'm made in this special, unique way as me, then my job, I'm only running my race. So it's not from pressure, it's from inspiration to go, could I develop all the things that are uniquely me? to the highest level and put those forth in the world and not not out of like, ⁓ I'm trying to beat Sarah. You know, it's like, no, I'm trying to be full Gabby. And and really because not only does it take the pressure off, but it keeps your fuel tank high. Because when we work only from pressure, not from inspiration, I think it drains our fuel tank, our fuel source. But I think the fuel source of love and inspiration is endless.

speaker-1: Mm-hmm.

speaker-0: It doesn't mean you're not tired, it doesn't mean it's not hard, it doesn't mean it's not a lot of work, but that fuel source I think is a much more unlimited source because you're working from that place instead of, you know, whether it's a like a mentality of scarcity or all these other things versus, wow, how far could I go? ⁓ I think that's really easier.

speaker-1: No, I I think you're right. And and and there's some there's some saying that I'm I can't remember, but essentially it's this idea that if you're doing something from passion and because you love doing it, it's worth almost any cost. Right? All of the little costs don't matter, but if you're acting out of obligation, every cost is too great. You know, so I I think that really identifying what these things are that are gonna give us joy and and showing up and and and being able to do those things I think makes all the difference in the world in terms of of developing even resilience, right? 'Cause I think that resilience a lot of times has to do with mission. And if you feel like you're on a mission and that you're doing this thing that's guided by purpose and by love, ⁓ that it's you know, it's easy to put up with anything, any amount of bullshit. because you are have your eye on the prize. You're doing this thing that you love and and that's guided by purpose. But if you're guided by somebody else's expectations, every little insult feels unbearable. And so I think that's also a good thing, you know, when we're talking about being curious with ourselves to to listen to is is every little bit of minutiae that when you're on this path, is it if it's feeling like it's catastrophic, maybe it's time to consider what your actual You know, like what what are is this is what you're building ⁓ building or doing, is it aligned with who you are? And are you showing up, you know, as as yourself?

speaker-0: Yeah. It's the only it's it really I mean, it is a It we s we hear it all the time, but it actually is true. It's like it's your life, there's only you and if we can just keep focusing in on that and keep focusing in on that, I I think it makes running the race a lot easier.

speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. And ⁓ you know, one of the things I wanted to talk to you about, and this is something that ⁓ we talked about on our ⁓ our telepathic version of our conversation that nobody else ever gets to hear, ⁓ was that during the time that you were working in the professional volleyball world, you were also working as a professional model, which many people are probably familiar with you ⁓ from ⁓ from those days. I know those re ⁓ those like Reebok ads, right? Was I I think it was Reebok that you

speaker-0: ⁓ yeah, well Nike the same thing.

speaker-1: ⁓ it Nike. ⁓ sorry about that. I remember you from those Nike ads. We don't have It's okay. ⁓ well no, because I ⁓ I remember ⁓ because I was a tall girl and I'm not nearly as tall as you and you guys will laugh so hard because you see I'll post a picture of Gabby and I next to each other because I'm so much shorter. But but ⁓ but relative to other girls growing up, I was tall.

speaker-0: Cut anything.

speaker-1: And ⁓ and so when I remember when you came into the world of modeling and I saw you, I was like, Yes, like that, because and you were built more like I was. I'm built more in a more athletic way than I am in a sort of dancer kind of a way. And ⁓ anyways I loved I loved when you came into the world ⁓ as ⁓ you know, a face of what a beautiful, healthy woman can look like. And it was very inspirational to me. And that is a world where you are a ⁓ Where you're big, right? And and in sports, you obviously like when you're playing volleyball, a lot of that is about being fit and and you know, really strong and being able to go out and kick ass. And then when you're in the world of modeling, it's about being small and ⁓ and you know, and and in some ways, ⁓ almost I don't think that it's weak, but it's it's not strong, right? It it's a very different phenotype that you're going for when you're in the modeling world compared to when you're in ⁓ in the world of volleyball. And so I'm wondering how, you know, how do you feel trying to navigate like what you're supposed to be in both of those worlds? And in and how do you prevent yourself from succumbing to social comparisons ⁓ when you're, you know, moving between these two worlds that are valuing two very different sets of qualities that you have. ⁓ how how did you stay sane in that space?

speaker-0: Well, I think there's certain things where ⁓ you know, the expression it is what it is, right? Like I am six three, and my body, even if I didn't lift weights, is it's sort of naturally there there's some out like especially my lower body, it's just a little bit bigger, right? So I think I understood it is what it is pretty early. so volleyball, that's kind of real performance. Like I I couldn't I couldn't have a makeup artist cover it up. You know, like if my skin wasn't working out well and then they just c sort of fix it. Volleyball is like you're gonna get your ass if you you don't play because your opponent's like, ⁓ cool, I'm gonna expose w your weaknesses. So I think for me the thing I loved about volleyball was was exactly that, right? There was some something ⁓ objective, not subjective about it. ⁓ and that was gonna be based on how hard you work, could you execute on the day, all the things. Were you better or not, right? 'Cause you could execute and train really hard and the team's just better. ⁓ but what I focused on was the things that I was in control of, which was my training and my performance, because modeling was very subjective. Did they like you? Did they want you based on how you look? and I used to joke that I I would have editors, you know, can you imagine clothing editors like, ⁓ like they I would show up and like nothing fit and they would just be like, ⁓ my God I remember this one very famous woman, I'll never I loved her, Manuela Pavesi. She was a r very famous editor from Italian Vogue. Gabi, you're you're so big. And I was like, I know, Manuela, I d I just don't know what to tell you, you know, like it's this. And I'd have like clamps on the back of my dresses 'cause I'd have to cut everything, kind of clamp it together. I I learned really early, I just was who I was. And I wasn't gonna fit into everything everywhere. I wasn't gonna be a for everybody, you know, ⁓ I wasn't gonna get every job. ⁓ I and so I was gonna just be the best me that I could be, but I knew in volleyball if I didn't work hard and train and play and be in shape, there was absolutely no way I was gonna be successful. Can't that you're not phoning in. So I focused on the the part that was felt tangible and real to me.

speaker-1: Mm-hmm. Mm.

speaker-0: And the thing I had to earn modeling was just really good fortune that I could go in that business, they would pay you because you looked a certain way. ⁓ and yeah, there were days where I was like, Yeah, I wish I didn't have a size at that time eleven foot. I have a size twelve foot now. ⁓ and I wish I I could fit into things, but I don't. I'm who I am. And I didn't spend a lot of time torturing myself. ⁓ Because i it seemed pointless. I wasn't gonna not be six three. I I I just was the way it was. So I think I I I looked at r what was real, what was fantasy, what I can control, what I couldn't control, and I just f found the way to make make peace with it.

speaker-1: Yeah, it sounds to me like you've always had a pretty strong sense of yourself, right? Is that fair to say? Or did was there like a defining moment ever where you like had to figure that out really quickly? Or how like how or do you just come into the world that way? 'Cause you know some of us come into the world just you know, that way.

speaker-0: Probably was born that way and it probably got exaggerated by my external life. So being having to kind of be more independent even very young because I wasn't with my parents. And even though the people who cared for me were very loving, they're not your parents. So you you you sort of have to figure that out. I was five feet tall at seven years old, I was six feet tall at twelve years old. So I think that exaggerated state made me understand like in that external way, you're kinda not like everybody else. Are you going to be tormented by it or are you gonna make peace with it? And by nature I'm probably just not a person who's interested in tormenting myself. I'm just not.

speaker-1: Well that's yeah, I think i I think ⁓ I think I'm not that way. You know, I think that so many people you know, I think that ⁓ I I I have ⁓ definitely the experience of ⁓ tormenting myself. I don't think that there's a

speaker-0: But think about this, Sarah, think about this. The reason that you do really well at your job or that your books have been created is also connected to some trait of that. Because you're interested. You want to get into it. You wanna you you wanna keep like me, once I see something for what it is, I'm like, ⁓ okay. And you're like, Well, no, what's under there and what's inside that and what's inside that. And so I think what we have to balance always is knowing that I have a tendency

speaker-1: Right.

speaker-0: But that tendency is also my gift. And so how do I, you know, keep the tension healthy?

speaker-1: Right. Yeah, I guess i ⁓ you're right about that. Everything cuts both ways. Right. And ultimately at the heart of our weaknesses are of oftentimes also our strengths, and vice versa, right? Where it's you know, some of our ⁓ superpowers also come at a cost, whether it's to ourselves or to our relationships. ⁓ and I think that I forget who said it, but there's this ⁓ expression that there's no solutions, there's only trade offs. And ⁓ I think that's absolutely true in life. ⁓ And so I want to now I want to talk to you a little bit about like failure and whether like whenever you've experienced setbacks, right? So let's just say, you know, whether it's with your with your sports, you know, your career ⁓ as an athlete, whether it has been with ⁓ business ventures, because you've done so much in your career. ⁓ when you experience setbacks, because we all experience setbacks where like let's say you lose a game or you miss a point or you know, you ⁓ have a business idea that doesn't work out, do you see it as failure or do you experience it or are you able to say this is a setback and ⁓ and then you're just able to keep going the course?

speaker-0: You know, I think it's like ⁓ when I think about it, it's like a color wheel, right? Like you have all the colors orange, yellow, purple, green. I I feel like a s quote setback, it it's on the wheel. And and so you know, you don't go, ⁓ we're on the color wheel and this is green. You know, green. It's like, yeah, it's just another color. Like a setback ⁓ gets framed out as something so different from success and experience. I don't think it is. I just think it's a shade, another thing on the wheel. And so when it's happening, it's like, ⁓ yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. ⁓ because I I don't you can't advance, you can't have a distinction between if you don't have said setback. It doesn't mean they're fun or I love ⁓ or that after a while I'm like, yo, like w I'd like a I'd like a you know, a little air would be nice. ⁓ but ⁓ Yeah, I haven't made them as a big distinction from like the rest of like the experience.

speaker-1: And so how do you know the difference if you you know, when you experience a setback in something that you're trying to do, how do you know when it's time to pursue, to continue to pursue and like, okay, this is just a setback, or whether it's time to call it. Because in all of our lives we'll do something or we'll try a new thing, or you know, maybe it's a career or a relationship choice that we've made where we are trying to figure out like, is is this a setback or is it time to call it? Like how do you make that distinction?

speaker-0: I think in ways I will say it's been easier for me because I did start so early in my life to listen to my instincts to really feel in my gut and my in my body, whether it was a person or a situation, I could I I sort of it would let me that would let me know. So I think in that way it is easier for me where I have the capacity to grind through. So you go, ⁓ yeah, this we're doing this. I can feel it, we're doing this, it's just gonna suck for a while. and I I'm not afraid of that. ⁓ but like if I met a person or I've been ⁓ recently in a situation like we had a business for ten years in our fitness life where I knew when ⁓ we got new partners, I was like, this is not gonna this isn't the right combination and then when is it time to to call it? 'Cause you know, there's there's sort of quitting.

speaker-1: Mm-hmm.

speaker-0: Prematurely, there's health healthfully going, we're at the we're at the end here. ⁓ and then there is just gotta keep pushing through. So I think listening to my instincts, and and knowing when I'm being emotional, egotistical, scared, like ⁓ also understanding where the where the response is coming from, which side of my personality. ⁓ Because if it's like from a pretty balanced and fair place and I've really assessed and going, you know, I think we're could be done here, versus, yeah, fuck this guy. I don't need this. It's like, okay, well, calm down, you know. So I think it's it's also knowing where the response is coming from ⁓ in myself and having a real honest conversation with myself. But I ⁓ I generally don't pursue too many things that I then later go.

speaker-1: Mm-hmm.

speaker-0: This was a total surprise and mistake.

speaker-1: Right. Right. Yeah, I one of the things that you and I had talked about ⁓ previously was the tendency for some people, and I am one of these people, where when you experience a setback where there is a tendency to, you know, translate that or develop turn that into a narrative about how you're gonna end up in and my story I tell myself is end up on a in a box on the street. And so You know, so I get a I have a setback at work or somebody writes a negative review of my book and ⁓ and it's not just ⁓ here's this you know negative stimulus. ⁓ it turns into here's this negative stimulus, you are not good at your job, you are gonna end up in a box on the street. And ⁓ and and you ⁓ and and you talked about the fact that ⁓ you're less inclined toward that and that your husband Laird, right. might be even less inclined toward that. And I'm wondering if we could like talk about that again.

speaker-0: There there's a couple parts of that. You know, ⁓ when I learned as an adult that ⁓ that's really natural. It wasn't a unique narrative to me because remember I like security. I bought a house at nineteen from when I was modeling. My coach was like, What are you doing? Because I was looking for roots. I was looking for security because I didn't have it. So so for me you have to first it's when you're having the feeling I think it gets worse. It's like when you're you're ramping up and somebody goes, Hey, just relax. That makes it worse. Right? So I think when we we do that, it's like, Of course I feel this way. Because I feel threatened. Because w you know, I you learn that to to build anything, to create anything, to make anything takes, you know, a millions of right decisions and moves. And for something to be destroyed, to get burnt down, to collapse, to be eaten takes one, one second. So for us to under have that real I that's why I always think when I talk about health and wellness, I'm like people need to understand their physiology and biology. So when stuff's happening, it's like, ⁓ yeah, this is my biology showing up. This isn't me a neurotic person. This is my biology in a wrong environment. Right? Because another tribe isn't coming, some wild animal isn't coming. It's some asshole on the internet writing a kn snarky comment. It's like that's an inappropriate response. So it's one knowing that and two, you know, for for me I've I've even gone to the to the depths of, do I have something to sell? I do. Which means can we keep the lights on or food on the table? We can. So when it gets really bad, there have been times where I'm like, do I have something to sell? Could I sell a house? Could I sell a thing? I could. That means we'll survive. It's okay. Doesn't matter. Right? So sometimes I do that. Like, what's the worst thing that can happen? I gotta sell shit. Great, no problem. We're good. And then and then finally living with Laird, who puts himself in very for many years so like a more natural and dangerous environment. And so for him, the hardest thing is a strings of days and days of 70 degree weather, sunny, and like no action really going on. That's actually way harder than him than like, ⁓ something dangerous. So Laird is always the one to say to me, Hey, listen, it's all gonna be okay. And it is okay. And sometimes when we think about box on the street, it's like, yes, but in this moment, am I okay? And we are. And that's what happens. It's all that Byron Katie calls it, ⁓ she's like, ⁓ sweetie, are you past futuring? It's all this projection, all this projection about this can happen, that it's not happening. We're fine. And so it it For me it's it's really getting a relationship with like, ⁓ it's gonna be fine. And having the view constantly of being present and having a big, wide perspective and being able to click in and out of that efficiently really has been a helpful tool. And I will say this when people talk about, ⁓ I have faith, it's like, ⁓ do you? Sometimes it's also surrendering to I'm here, I'm a steward of some kind of gift and talent, I'm meant to live a certain life, and I have great faith that I'm on my path. And when people talk about faith, that I think that's the moment to defer to something much greater than myself and say, I'm gonna trust.

speaker-1: Yeah, it's I I find it it can be hard to let go, but I think that I one of the questions that you had raised that I really loved is just the idea of is it okay right now? And opening it always the door. Right. Yeah, and and it almost always is, right? And one thing that they teach you in, you know, psych psychology is that anxiety and fear is a liar, right? It exaggerates. And the reason for that is that our amygdala, which is our fear center in our brain, acts like a smoke detector. And if it gets even a faint whiff of microwave popcorn, right, a lot of times it will alarm, even though there's no, you know, there's no risk of a fire. ⁓ but it's wired intentionally to be very vigilant so that way it doesn't miss an actual threat. Right? And in our current environments, you know, we are so much safer than we were most of our human history. And ⁓ and I think that sometimes it's almost like our our threat detective threat detection system has become sensitive to almost like the wrong cues. Like it it's been so it's so sensitive now to even slight threats because we're not really exposed to big threats, which is why I wonder about someone like Laird who, you know, has deliberately put himself in the way of big threats, ⁓ you know, with his ⁓ surfing career and other, you know, physical risk taking that ⁓ that that he's been known to do, whether that then recalibrates your amygdala in a way that allows you to be able to better withstand some of the minor perturbations that can lead the rest of us to really freak out and spiral.

speaker-0: Well, Anne, not only freak out and spiral, but freak out and spiral ⁓ with access to the whole world. We're not supposed to have access to the whole world. I remember about seven years ago I said to Laird, Laird had made a comment about a female surfer that got herself into a bad situation. And ⁓ Laird had actually s sort of picked her up years before ⁓ i in in another location and he he realized he felt she was ill equipped. and there's other women that he thinks that had more experience and time that were not ill equipped, that they could get themselves in a bad situation. It was just a bad situation, not because they were ill equipped. He made a comment about this online ⁓ in some interview, because they asked him about it. And it and also the guy who was supposed to who dropped her off and picked her up did it ⁓ really recklessly and Laird is pretty ⁓ you know serious about the safety around these things. So he makes the comment And ⁓ both these people are from a specific country and for first and w you know, we have three daughters and and so then that particular whole country was like, ⁓ Laird's a sexist, ⁓ you know, the all these things, right? So after a couple couple days of it, Laird's not online. I said, Hey, you know, you there people are saying this stuff and Laird looked at me, he goes, I don't like I don't give a f like I don't care.

speaker-1: Yeah, it's like who are these people? Like why should I care about them?

speaker-0: I'm like in my barn. Like I'm gonna go out and surf. Like I you know, I'm eating my food. Like for him, this concept is so ridiculous that you would take in the opinions of thousands of people, also talking to him about something that he might be more of a subject matter expert than them. So when I said it, he looked at me, he was like mid-bite, and he was just like

speaker-1: Yeah. Okay.

speaker-0: And I thought, Yes, that's right.

speaker-1: He's right. No, that's so funny. It's so funny how when you, you know, sort of frame it appropriately, which is these are complete strangers who probably have absolutely no business making, you know, comment they have no expertise that that allows them to be able to even have an opinion on this. Right. ⁓ and yeah, no, we should all we should all be more that way because it's not real. And and again, I and I've I've I said this to you before, like one of the things that my my husband and I that we tell each other when we're in the throes of some sort of an existential crisis related to things happening at work or on the internet or whatever it is. It's like this is all, you know this is bullshit, right? You know this is all bullshit and like none of this is real. Because it's not. No, it's like what's real is eating your sandwich and going and working in the barn and going to go surf. It's not the opinion of some stranger who has no real expertise. It's like in the real world, in the world in which we spent most of our evolutionary history, that that opinion would never reach us. It's not meant to

speaker-0: Well, and how about let's take it a step further? Before the internet, the narrative I'm creating about some scenario around me, that's not real. And ⁓ or I'm projecting that that person in my workplace has this feelings or opinions about me, it's like that's a story. So in a way, we've always done that on some level, and I do think women do it more. ⁓ because it again, going back to biology, we need to be sensitive to our tribe and Can we rely on people and you know, we have to all sort of get along to survive. It all makes sense, but when you realize well how it's working against us, it's like, okay, enough already.

speaker-1: Right. Yeah. I mean definitely there's a lot of research that suggests that ⁓ especially historically women were so dependent on their group members for, you know, provisioning and and care of children when their husbands were out hunting, et cetera, et cetera. And so we are super wired and super sensitive to cues of ⁓ you know, s disapproval, social disapproval. And and I think that the internet definitely preys on those ⁓ those capacities with women and especially girls. And I've got a I've got a daughter. I know you've got ⁓ three of them. And for me, my daughter is much more sensitive to those kinds of cues than my son, who is a little bit more resilient. Like, I don't care. Like I don't know who these people are.

speaker-0: And and that's and those are the times that we can borrow those traits. You know, I have definitely I have some masculine tendencies, but I've taken on I've tried to take on actually more feminine in certain ways and actually more masculine in others, because then each protects the other. And ⁓ and so I it's been really helpful to be like, ⁓ yeah, okay, forget it.

speaker-1: I love it, you're like a whole village in one person. Really

speaker-0: I'm really working on it. I'm really working on it. I think I'm like you know, it's like I'm trying to to get both so powerful because then when the right person needs to step in, I I get to use the right the right Yeah. It's like, ⁓ this is like about hugging and understanding and making space. Well this is about like almost ignoring, not mattering, being very straightforward and just trying to, you know, do that.

speaker-1: Set of tools. I love it. I love it. Let's talk about relationships. And I'm gonna talk about your marriage to ⁓ to Laird Hamilton, the professional surfer waterman. And I want to talk about the fact that you guys have kind of run the I mean, you've kind of been through all the major milestones of a long term relationship. You have children, you quit the marriage, ⁓ for a period of time where you said enough of this. ⁓ and now I mean the two of you work together, you seem Very happy you raised these ⁓ three daughters. ⁓ everything seems from at least from the outside, looks like it's going pretty well. And s I mean, you know, as well as as as life ever goes, right? ⁓ minor imperfections ⁓ aside. What how do you get what brought you to the point of wanting to quit your marriage initially and then w how did you get to the place that you're at now?

speaker-0: You know, I I w I I met Laird at twenty five and I was definitely not looking for someone I was a husband. I was busy, I was, you know, doing my thing. And ⁓ I met Laird and and it it was sort of it was in involuntary. I mean I I I always say I'm a pretty practical person. I'm I don't get led around by my emotions and I there was something with Laird and Laird was ⁓ s ho in a in a he and he and he and his wife were sort of He was sleeping in the barn. My oldest daughter ⁓ was a small baby. It was it was very it wasn't like, ⁓ that's a good idea. and I remember asking myself, you know, would I be willing to to be responsible to take on all these things? And ⁓ and I and I and I was. And I and so Laird and I lived together very quickly, something like eight days later. you know, I I developed a relationship with his ex wife. It it was difficult at first, obviously. and then we co-parented for my oldest daughter. but there were some other things, right? Like Laird is a very at that time even more kind of restless, kinda waiting for waves, needs to be in the ocean, wants to be in nature. ⁓ again, connected to all the things that I really admire about Lair because there's a purity there about what his values are, that it isn't about acquiring more money and getting stuff. It's a very pure thing, but it's difficult. And when someone feels like they're on a clock and they're always waiting and they don't understand how the r this everyday why does that guy have power just because he's a CEO of a company, but if we had to hunt and go get meat, he couldn't get anything and like, you know, all this weird stuff. And so I and and also Laird was battling a very c kind of subtle because he was always at home, alcohol. And and so I I never spoke up and I never said, Hey, this is how I feel because I wasn't used to being vulnerable and when you have to say what you what you feel or what you want, you actually have to be vulnerable. And I always use stoicism. And yes, it's a form of strength, but it's also a form of hiding. Mm-hmm. So I use stoic, like, I'm not gonna I don't need anything, I don't want anything. And so I I didn't say anything, I left, and Laird was the one, because Laird is a much braver person than I am. ⁓ he let me kind of flounder around for a year and ⁓ said to me one day, like, you know, do you wanna do you wanna try or not? And I remember thinking it I it was time to stick my neck out. And so I we went through all the stuff and we actually had to deal with the alcohol for a few more years after that. But I went through this whole list of things and he said to me, Well, why don't you say anything? And I was like, That is a really good question. Why didn't I say anything? And so it was really a gift for me that Laird could wait me out and let me go through the Learning to dance because I didn't have the skills and learning to be brave enough to say, Hey, it's all a risk, ⁓ to be in a relationship, to have a family, to love so much. It is, it's just a risk. It's uncomfortable. People leave, people die, like shit happens. And I didn't wanna not risk, but I needed to learn how to be brave enough to to do it with Larid and And then I I vowed that I would never get myself in a situation that I wouldn't say anything. It doesn't mean be combative. I am I am a person who can let so much stuff go. I don't need to say much. But if it was something that was important that I would just go straight in and be like, Hey, that doesn't work for me or I need this or why are you doing that? And then obviously the the the relationship was elevated. I was pregnant with our third daughter, my second biological daughter, and Laird decided to stop drinking alcohol. And that was about ⁓ nineteen years ago. So that also really helped because that's him wrestling his demons to the ground because we take everything so personal. When someone's dealing with alcohol, a couple things, they're usually probably pretty sensitive. ⁓ you know, I I'm way too analytical to be an addict, truthfully. Like I'm like, How do I feel? you know? And they feel they feel it. And so it and so

speaker-1: See that.

speaker-0: It was the o wrestling that to the ground and and being able to be a g a partner to him to allow himself to work his thing out, even though the collateral damage does flow over to the relationship. A lot of times we take it personal. It's not. It they've gotta find the way to deal with the thing. And so we could do that.

speaker-1: Yeah, I think that so many people and I've been guilty of this in relationships too. I think that we all sometimes are of being willing to put up with chronic pain to avoid acute pain. So it's like we don't like to say difficult things because it's hard. And then the difficult things keep coming and then that leads to a chronic condition, right? And I think that a lot of times with women, you know, there's this statistics that that think it's something like seventy eight or eighty percent of divorces are initiated by women. And I think what happens is this, you know, this sort of chronic need to be nice and feel like you should just put up with things and not say anything and not speak up when things are bothering you. And then ultimately reaching a breaking point where you're like, fuck this. I'm out. Yep. And and and

speaker-0: Hysteria, right? We get to the place and then we snap. I I will say this though. Is there a way to drop off feelings matter of factly? Right? Because it's also how they hear. If I go blah blah blah blah blah and I'm nagging on and on, I don't know that they hear that so well. Mm-hmm. But I do find if you can if you can say, Hey, when you do that, like I feel that way. Or and do it sort of matter of fact and before hysteria. ⁓ I think is is really imperative. ⁓ and you know what? Who cares? That's the other thing. Who cares if they flip out because you call them on something?

speaker-1: Right. Who cares? Yeah, and and you know, so and I don't know whether you have a w like and it I'd be curious whether you have ⁓ some sort of a mechanism set up in your relationship to deal with this. ⁓ with my husband, we actually have like it's like once a month we'll do a check-in when we are absolutely not emotionally attached to anything that's happened over the past month. Like, you know, whether he was like doing something that bothered me, you know, it has passed. 'Cause I've learned to that you just need to like like okay, I can experience this feeling I'm having, right? And a lot of it is usually about way the way I'm feeling about s you know, some sort of reaction that may or may not be productive in you know, in the context of the actual insult, which is usually something small like forgetting to empty the dishwasher or something small like that, you know, where you turn it into the well that means that you must not love me, you know, which I don't know how you get from A to B, but sometimes I do. And ⁓ and and having a f ⁓ venue where you can just like talk about things in a totally removed like, Hey, you know, how are things going? Because ⁓ you know, like let's just go through how things are and ⁓ and and talking about them when you're dispassionate and yeah, can talk in a level way, I think ⁓ can allow for really fruitful and productive conversations. And I don't know, do you all do anything like that or do you have some sort of a mechanism that allows you to cool off before you talk about problem issues in the relationship?

speaker-0: Well, I think this is where we're complimentary because I am analytical. I can assess that it would be a better time later. Mm-hmm. Because if my goal is to get to the resolution and not to be a you know right or to poke them or whatever, if it's like, hey, just to get clarity for the health of the relationship, I can wait. But the other side of that is Laird is very good. I call it pulling the weeds. Mm-hmm. Laird doesn't let anything go under the carpet. Anything. If he notices a look or you have body language, he calls you on it right away. So so because we have those two traits happening, we have the person who wants to pull the weeds, but we also have the other person who's wa who can do it calmly and and sort of wait. So ⁓ I think that we do that more regularly ⁓ and consistently so it does kind of clear the decks all the time. and And you know, listen, learning how to really say this is all just attached because I really love you and I'm crazy about you and your attention and love and affection and care means so much to me that when it feels off or withheld or you're distracted, it's only because like that I I like that from you.

speaker-1: Right. Yeah, no, absolutely. And like what do you could because you've been together a long time and like what are some of the things that you find about maintaining attraction? Right. So I one of the things that we do some research on in my lab is looking at attraction and long term relationships. And you know, familiarity and intimacy do have that effect of ⁓ it can decrease sexual attraction within relationships. And so I think that it's ⁓ at least Research suggests that people should be pretty intentional about trying to maintain ⁓ attraction in a relationship because it's very easy for it to disappear ⁓ just because of the familiarity and levels of intimacy that are required, especially when you're sharing a household and sharing children. ⁓ yeah. And s yeah, and so what like what have you learned in your relationship about keeping that alive? Because it is such an important part of relationships.

speaker-0: It is. It's a really important part. You know, I think one thing that Laird and I naturally do as individuals is we use the word curiosity earlier. So we're not particularly stagnant people. We're sort of you know, reading and looking at new ideas and learning and taking care of ourselves and and going forward. And so what happens is I'm not saying to Laird, you know, let's go, and he's not saying to me, Let's go. Both of us go forward naturally. And then we can be a we can provide a source of ⁓ inspiration for the other. Like on the day I don't really want to do go, I look and I go, ⁓ there's Lurk going, I gotta go, you know. But what happens is is within it we maintain our individuality in a real way. Like in a real way. Not we're kind of melded mostly together, but we're we're both Sort of really on our own mission and path. And then we have the ability, because our values are similar, to keep weaving our lives together. And then there's excitement and love. I never feel like I can control Laird, which is very good for me because it keeps me on my toes. no person is telling the other person how to be, but there is a silent understanding of, hey. You're gonna bring your best and I'm gonna bring my best. It'd be like walking into a classroom with a really high level professor that they start the morning with good morning, and they're well prepared and they're showing up at their very best. And it's understood that you're gonna do the same. And so there's no force, but it's kinda like, hey, this train, this is what we do on this train. We play We're playing our A game. We're not coming here with like snarky comments or like belittling bullshit or like you're not doing your thing. And so the other side of that is weak joke is mutually assured destruction.

speaker-1: I love that.

speaker-0: It's pretty much like we're doing this all the time and that's naturally built into our relationship. And the and I will make a distinction that I think is very important for women. There's mothering and there's nurturing. And if you want to continue to have a sex life with your partner, it's much more powerful to nurture them than to mother them.

speaker-1: Amen. L there's actually research on that. Did you know that, Gabby? No. So there is ⁓ there's research that finds that sexual desire dysfunction is related in large way to women feeling like they're mothering their husbands. Yeah. And so I think that ⁓ that, you know, and and so it's been argued that essentially that, you know, s a lot of what we think of as ⁓ hypoactive sexual desire disorder with women. might be ⁓ a an effect of their relationship dynamic and it's sort of ⁓ in in this way that you're urging people not to follow, which is, you know, nurture without mothering. Because I do think that there that there's that ⁓ element of ⁓ it's it's a condescending view of your partner to be mothering them, right? Because essentially, you know, when you have a parent child relationship it's about a power asymmetry where you think that you have the answers and your child doesn't have the answers. and ⁓ and I think that a lot of times you hear women talking about their partners in ways that are are well they know better. They know better Yeah, like that that they know better instead of appreciating that there's gonna be differences and that ⁓ again again everything cuts both ways. Right. And so

speaker-0: The flip side of that is men have to take the bull by the horns, right? Like that's the thing is Laird is like showing up. If something's broken, he fixes it. It's like he's on it. So so the conversely, it's like it's easier to do when you have somebody who's like, you know, they're on it. But I always tell young women, listen, you guys have all this list of ways that you think men should be. And if they did all the things that you wanted them to do, you would have no one you want to have sex with.

speaker-1: Yeah, that's so funny. Yeah, I ⁓ I I was I was talking with my one of my girlfriends about this very thing where it's like this list of things, you're essentially creating a completely unfuckable man. Yes. Like you know, you wanna have sex with this guy. No. Who's like who's no, no, it's ⁓ 'cause I'm very much because I study human relationships and human mating and I've been studying it since, you two thousand I'm very keenly aware of you know the different factors that play a role in attraction and and what works and what doesn't work for me. And so I've always been very much about like wanting a man, like I want a like a man who shows up as a man and like makes decisions that I don't want to make and deals with the unpleasant things that I don't want to, you know, deal with. And yes, and when you have that. ⁓ and yes, and and then you show up and he's playing his A game and you're playing your A game and you don't become the two headed relationship monster right, which so many people become where they become so inter you know, intermingled with their partner that they can't tell who's who and where you start and where the other person begins and there's no polarity there. There's no and and you need polarity for attraction. Yeah. And ⁓ and and so it's I I think that keeping those things in mind and working You know, even you know, if you're listening and you've been married to your husband for a long time and you've become the two-headed relationship monster, it is never too late to develop ⁓ an internal sense of self and for your partner to develop an internal sense of self and know that it is human nature to feel resistance to that because you're gonna feel like, ⁓ I wanna be with my partner. No. Like, no. Like this is in t you need to intentionally build this into your life starting out. ⁓ and don't let that resistance to the idea make you feel like it's the wrong because it really is the smartest thing that you can do to maintain the quality of your relationship is to build yourself up as an independent human and have your partner do the same. So that way you're both able to show up and and be there ⁓ as a complete other and that creates the polarity that maintains attraction. Yeah.

speaker-0: And at no time I could be with Laird every day and all the time. A are we not both intensely individual? And I think what's going on too that's confusing, especially for younger women and men, is we have we have said that the masculine has all this like negative ⁓ sort of connotation. And what I when I talk about masculinity and ⁓ the ⁓ the ⁓ the type of men I'm around, Laird and his friends, they are ⁓ loving, protective, ⁓ they cherish women, they are helpful. yes, are there sort of some other traits that but you you want that in in in life. And so I think we have to be really careful about men feeling bad just for the sake of being men. It's unfair because I I think the world needs that energy and going back to selfishly as a woman, it's like listen, if I give you the cue with my eyeballs, I would like you to take me. I don't want it to be a nine set of questions about like am I comfortable? Do I think 'cause now I'm busy and I'm tired and it's like a forget it.

speaker-1: Yeah, it's my question six. You're like the moment has passed.

speaker-0: No, dude, it's like I can barely get there anyway. We're all so busy. Imagine when people have little children. It's like it's almost impossible already. So if it's like and the other thing I would say that I've learned to do, and it took me probably to my thirties, was I learned to verbalize to Larry, hey, I really appreciate you. hey, do you want to sneak away? I don't always it's like fifty percent of the time I make it my suggestion, not his. So he doesn't feel like he's chasing me and I don't feel like I'm being chased.

speaker-1: Right.

speaker-0: Pressure of like, when are we gonna have sex? It's like no, I'm leaning right into that. I'm going right at it. Like, hey, you wanna sneak away?

speaker-1: Right. Yeah, and I think that acting on that impulse, I think a lot of women where you'll have that like impulse, just do it. Do act on that impulse. Do it. Yeah, I I I completely I completely agree. And I think that it's so smart what you just said. Well there's been a lot of things you've said that are really smart, but I really love this idea of ⁓ because I do think that a lot of women, especially when they've been married a while or in a long term relationship, ⁓ that they have that feeling like they're being chased and and in and getting away from It really is as simple as act on the impulse. When you have that impulse where you like catch your partner like looking particularly adorable, like d d act on it. And then

speaker-0: What we forget is how much it means to them. Men have their own path and plate of like nobody feels sorry for them and they don't tell their guys like, Hey, my chick isn't really like into sex. Like they barely talk about this shit. If you cherish if you go for them and you're just like, hey, that means the world to them.

speaker-1: Yeah, no, absolutely. And I I do think, ⁓ you know, and are you familiar with ⁓ Scott Galloway's work? He wrote he just wrote that memoir about yeah, ⁓ yeah, no, I I ⁓

speaker-0: I didn't read it though. What did it say?

speaker-1: Well it's just it's essentially saying what you're saying. It's like I think that ⁓ there's a lot culturally that's happened in the last 20 years that has created this narrative that there's something wrong with being male and and you know and and it's working to so it's called on on being a man or notes on being a man, and it's just essentially like talking about what it means to be a man and and like you were saying, I mean it's this idea that you know being helpful and kind and respectful. in in it, you know, all of these great things, but also, you know, have having leadership abilities, showing your leadership abilities, ⁓ and and not being apologetic about that. And and it's okay to be competitive and it's okay to be physical, right? And to, you know, need to move your body. And and and it's essentially, you know, trying to act, you know, a a counter, cultural counterpoint to this idea that there's something inherently toxic about being male. And and ⁓ as a mother of a son and also just somebody who's very much ⁓ you know, I I've spent most of my career steeped in research on sex differentiation, right? And sex differences and, you know, males and females and and how we're different, ⁓ and and why it's important to understand these differences and that it doesn't mean that we're unequal, it just means we're different. ⁓ and and how you know, seeing what's happened in the last 25 years or so where There's been this idea that there's something wrong with being male and that, you know, men should be like women. And then what happens when men are like women is that women don't want to date them. And ⁓ and so it it creates this problem and and and so it's like just say it. You know, it's like it's okay to be a ⁓ man, you know, and ⁓ and I think well, yeah, exactly. It's like it's like not only is it okay, but it's like I I think that if if we didn't have this confusing cultural narrative about, you know, it being Toxic to be a man that we would be in a much better position than what we are currently.

speaker-0: The the other kind of challenges is that we also aren't teaching boys how to be men.

speaker-1: Right. Yes, absolutely.

speaker-0: Sort of like a rite of passage and a process about gaining the tools that it takes to being a man. I think for women it's easier. Like you get your period, you go through puberty, like there's certain things that you do that you just do. Right? Where with men it's a conversation. It's like, hey, you know, this is how you work this, this is how you respond to that. Hey, avoid that conflict if you can. You have to teach young men how to become men. And because we've squashed the whole thing, now you have a group of young men that are like, I don't even know what to do

speaker-1: Right, right. Yeah, I which is why I love Scott's book, because it's very much trying to create this guide ⁓ to you know, for boys and and who are becoming men on on what it means to be a man and in in the most, you know, really ⁓ beautiful sense of the word, you know, being able to show up in in your masculine energy, which you know has a lot of positive qualities and without, you know, leaning into the toxic male stereotypes. So I wanna ask you about work life balance and whether you think it's bullshit and whether or whether you've ⁓ whether you figured out a way to do it and whether even you d struggle with, you know, like d is does it does even Gabby Reese face the second shift problem, right? Where you work and then you're also responsible for everything that's going on at home and how do you how do you find balance in your life and in your day with all the different things that you've got going on at any given moment?

speaker-0: Well, first of all, the joke is the million dollar question is, you know, what's for dinner? I hate f you know, like I joke about like in every house at three or four o'clock you're like doing you're de s deep in work and you're like, ⁓ shit, what's for dinner? So absolutely I believe in a flywheel versus a buckets, right? I I used to believe in the buckets. Like, ⁓ my relationships, my workout, my you know, my work. ⁓ And then I I I adapted to the flywheel thing of if I'm excited by my work and excited in my happy in my relationship and I'm in a flow with my children, which just means being in an in an active relationship, right? Like I'm th I get to be there as as much as I feel as I need to, right? 'Cause we ha we all have these kind of our different different degrees, right? ⁓ and ⁓ and so there's certainly and you know it's that it it's that it It's that have to sh should and want. I I use that sort of system often. I don't make everything a have to. It barely is. I I'm happy to push things to the side very quickly when I understand this doesn't need my time and attention right now. I'll do with that in three days. Like no problem. So it's it's not everything, is it? It it has to be perfect and done. It's what do I need to deal with. ⁓ and and also what I say is I I look at my months and weeks. ⁓ in a l i in a long line. So I see how everything is related to everything how ⁓ when I'm scheduling. And if it gets too weird and thick, I'm like, okay, why would I why am I doing that? When I can spin that out and push it down and then I spin everything so it's only one thing coming at me at a time. So if I'm in something at eleven, I'm not really contending with the thing at three. Because that takes energy, energy for my brain. It creates stress and anxiety about like, ⁓ I have so much to do. No. This is what I'm doing. ⁓ because I I can't deal with the next thing anyway. This is what I'm dealing with. So I believe in the flywheel. I don't make everything ⁓ the most important thing in the world. Perfection is not my goal. and you know Laird is a good resource for me on this because he is s so different than me where I am about task completion and like checking all the boxes. And he's like, ⁓ is this what we're doing with our lives? We're answering emails. And I'm like, Yeah. He's like, You wanna you wanna go outside? And I'm like, No, but yes, I will. So I think it's having a partner who's who's a great reminder. but I've I've been at this long enough that I understand if I take care of myself first. My training is ⁓ is non negotiable. I can't get the other stuff done. Now having said that, if I have a really incredibly crazy day or I'm traveling for three days, I understand that's gonna fall off. So I don't freak out, but in my day to day, that's the thing. I don't let that that has I kept the reins on that thing tight. ⁓ because then I'm super effective in all the ways ⁓ that I can. So

speaker-1: Do you do that first thing in the morning? Like is is that the way that you protect that? Is that you wake up and so so what is what is your daily like do you have like a a regular like daily routine? And obviously all the different things you do for work are gonna be different, but like what is what is your daily routine look like?

speaker-0: So Monday, Wednesday, Friday I have a standing eight thirty training. ⁓ and then I will d dive into my business and everything else. And I do try to now tack on, now that my kids are bigger, some kind of like walk or something mellow if I can at at the middle end of the day. I used to never do that. I would like train super hard, kill myself and then sit at my desk for eight hours. ⁓ and as I'm learning, it's just not a good idea. And then Tuesday, Thursdays, and Saturdays, if it's warm enough, I do underwater pool training. That's where I try to do get in the sauna and do things like that. ⁓ and then everything else, like I my eating is I eat real food. I'm I'm I eat when I'm hungry, I eat till I'm full. If I if I have the impulse to shove something in my mouth because it's out of stress or boredom, I just notice it and try not to do it or find a healthy alternative. ⁓ I'm pretty I don't want to say I'm dialed in there, but once you get your system dialed in, your cravings diminish. There's a lot of things that work in your favor, your energy sustain, things like that. So I eat real food. I'm not a freak about calories. I don't think about it. I eat whole real food. ⁓ and then the thing that I'm I lack is I probably could be more hydrated. That's the thing I'm always trying to catch up to catch up to is my hydration. I get to bed at the same time. So you know, it's Probably around nine o'clock. I'm not a great sleeper. So at least I know if I'm in the bed, maybe I'll get six hours. I'm just not a great sleeper. I I I will try to solve all my problems or just wake up. I'm in midlife. So some you know, it's new things. Before it was little kids, now and then it's teenagers out, and then now it's like, okay, shit, hormones. and again, that for me, not everything is stressful. Like when I see the response, I go.

speaker-1: Okay.

speaker-0: This does not warrant this type of response. So I've gotten pretty good at being like, okay.

speaker-1: Do you do you meditate? The reason I'm asking is because that's like such a mindful way. And and I I've gotten better at it since I started I I do this meditative yoga I do once a week and I've done it now for like six years. And since I've added that into my practice, I I'm better at that, ⁓ sort of catching myself where I'm like This isn't worth getting this upset about. Do you have some sort of a meditation practice or are you just sort of naturally mindful or is it a byproduct of living with Laird, who sounds like he's just constantly mindful?

speaker-0: Well and also Laird is way more emotional than I am. No, I do what I I I mean, I've sometimes I do breathing. What I've o what I always do is active meditation. What does that mean? If I drive in my car, sometimes I'll just I check in with myself every day. So if maybe I'm in the shower, I'll like, ⁓ how's it going? It's just a natural thing of like, what's bot is anything bothering me? ⁓ you know what I need to s deal with that conversation with that person or something's not right over here. Let me call that kid or ⁓ I forgot to get back to somebody. So I use times where I'm by myself all the time to just scan really quickly. ⁓ and so that helps me stay very focused and clear and nothing is like you know, months and months or weeks and weeks or years and years of things piling up. It's like, ⁓ there's something, okay, deal with it. Okay, there's something, deal with it. And and that has always been a a tool of mine, and that comes probably from ⁓ the way I grew up. And then being in sports. ⁓ 'cause you have to take on things as as they come.

speaker-1: Right. You you can't get away. Yeah, I I hadn't even thought about that, but that's like a really great skill. I mean, there's so many great skills you get from sports, being part of a team, you know, being coached in a certain way and and understanding that feedback is helpful for growth and but I'dn't even thought about the mindfulness that I would imagine that athletes are probably much more mindful than people like me who have no you know, ability to ⁓ play teams.

speaker-0: Well, no. That's what you get for the IQ points. I think I think what happens in sport is when something's not working, it's it gets blown open every time. Because the people on the other side go, ha, that doesn't they can't do that, and they blow you open. So what happens is is it's a really good tool to go first of all, you're not afraid of being like, I'm not good at that. I gotta work on that. ⁓ and so you don't avoid it. You've learned how to go. I'm gonna work on that. And so there's just an opportunity. If you go to practice, you go to practice with an intention to work on a skill. Well, you can do that in your day-to-day life. And say, like, you know, I I or even more is set the the ideal. The ideal would be the goals, the dreams. And then you go, okay, what's the ideal? I'd like to be a kind partner. I'd like to do all these things. Cool. What does that look like? What skills do you need to build? build into that and that practice and how's that going to show up in your day. So it's not some like pie in the sky thing like, I wanna be a loving partner and a mom. It's like, yeah, awesome. What's the scaffolding framework for that? How does that look? And so you also have the opportunity to build skills on you set a goal and then you go, okay, how do I reach that goal?

speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, that's so smart. I mean it's like building systems, right? We always need to you can't a goal without systems in place to help help you reach that go is is is wasted time. But don't use 'cause it's not gonna get you anywhere.

speaker-0: you feel like people sometimes like now we live in like Tech Bro land, everybody talks in like this way sometimes that's like ⁓ it's so systematized that there's not like an organic kind of flow to it where it's from it's also still your heart.

speaker-1: ⁓ yeah, no, I no, I totally do. I d I d I totally do. I I feel like we've lost track of the forest for the trees in a lot of ways, where everybody's trying to optimize the trees. And then if you zoomed out and actually looked at the forest, it would be like a Seuss mobile. It'd be like this weird, you know, and and and I feel like that kinda takes the joy out of life too, honestly. Like I've never ⁓ quite understood the ⁓ need to optimize every little thing and instead I try to take a zoom out and I try to like optimize my life from the out like from the outside. And to me that feels like balance and and like you, yeah you and I are very similar where I, you know, I I eat real food, it makes me feel good. ⁓ I but if I want to have a piece of chocolate cake and so like I will do that without any problem at all. I'm not I'm not thinking about optimizing. I'm not I'm just like mostly doing making good decisions that support my health, but also at the same time support me having a really good quality of life. And I think that I think I've had a good quality of life so far. Not done. But hopefully it continues that way.

speaker-0: And I think with parenting we have to remember that too, right? That our children are people and the idea is for them to understand, get encourage them to figure out who they are and what they like and what they want and what they how to do that and to love them, not to plug them into every single thing and program and routine and all this bullshit that then they never get to space to ask themselves that question. And we're so scared to do that as parents because we think we'll get they'll get behind. They won't get behind.

speaker-1: No, they develop as humans. And so so one thing, you know, and it's so funny because I'm a psychologist, obviously. ⁓ and you know, and I had my children, I didn't pick up a single parenting book ⁓ because it was like, no, like nature equipped us with the ability to read our children. And the idea that somebody could write a parenting book for my children is outrageous to me because they're they're both two very different human beings and there's you know, and they would each need their own parenting book. If there was actually going to be a parenting book, because I have to parent them in absolutely different ways, and you just have to trust your instincts. And as a as a you know a human being, we have that baked into our nervous system, is the ability to be able to do that. And part of that is allowing them to fail and to fall down and ⁓ and not plug them into every single thing that we're hoping that you know that they can do to map maximize and optimize ⁓ and just give them the opportunity to learn how to manage failure. learn how to figure out what they're good at because, you know, there's no greater teacher than life, you know, and and failure and and it's like, okay, well, I tried this and I'm not good at it and it sucked and I felt terrible. Or ⁓ you know, with with my kids I've had to and I don't know if you had this experience, but ⁓ there's a lot of pressure for them to, you know, succeed at school and ⁓ in the schools that my kids go to and I don't do their work. I don't Fa I don't badger them and pester them about their work. I will say, what do you have for homework? Okay, you should do that. I don't check it. I don't, you know, if they're gonna screw up and they do, you know, they're doing it now and they're learning. And I think that as parents, it's hard to sit back and it's especially hard when you're feeling like all of the other parents are probably thinking you're a terrible parent because you're not paying attention because your child's poster doesn't look as pretty as everybody else's posters. But it's like I understand that childhood isn't the end goal, right? My goal with parenting my children isn't for my children to have this rosy childhood where they had the best poster in the fourth grade, you know, poster a competition. Right. My goal as a parent is to have them feel, you know, well developed, feel like they matter in this world, right? And and that they have some sort of a path. And there's no way that I think that they can develop that when we're, you know, trying to do everything for them.

speaker-0: Right. And I and I think it's like I tell my girls, I'm not your coach, I'm your mom.

speaker-1: I love that. No, it's I love that.

speaker-0: It's it's a very different thing. And and also I wanna encourage parents that like the arc on parenting is long, the story, but that if you love them and you give ⁓ room and you put up, you know, boundaries and you listen and you try to be the best example yourself, it cu it just sort of works out.

speaker-1: Yeah, I I think that I think that that's I think that that's true. And and that's taught me that parenthood definitely taught me that. ⁓ and I know that we're all about out of time. I'm gonna wrap up, but what what what is what does parenting taught you? Like what is the mo like what is one of the most important lessons that you've learned? You've parented ⁓ three girls, ⁓ different personalities, ⁓ and you have to learn how to, you know, navigate all of that. What what what was or yeah, what what what do you think is the most important thing you've learned from parenting?

speaker-0: Well listen, the obvious is they're not listening, they're watching. Mm-hmm. And to surrender. When people go, ⁓ you surrender Nothing has taught me more to surrender than being a mom.

speaker-1: I love that. I think that that's so true. We don't have any control over that. And I think that letting go

speaker-0: Yeah, and I And that like it's it's sort of all gonna be okay. You know, like and also like if they don't win a gold medal or they're not the CEO or even if they are, what's the end goal? For them to know themselves, to maybe have loving relationships, to know how to take care of themselves and to be their full whole self and don't worry about that. Don't worry about it.

speaker-1: I love that. I'm gonna close with one last question, and that is just about what is the legacy that you want to leave in the world? You've done so much. ⁓ and I'm just really curious about what is the most important thing that you want to be able to leave behind.

speaker-0: You know, I get I sometimes get asked about legacy and I realize because of my feral background. It's not that I don't care. It's that maybe if my kids say, Hey, she really showed up and I I respect I mean you as you kind of think if you're there your kids are gonna love you, but like I I respected her and there were some traits and things and ways she did things that I will do as well. and that like I I I s I sort of squeezed the tube. You know, like so I I I'm not worried about the next, the next, the next. I'm I I'm really interested in like if I were if I was given certain gifts and talents that I just maximize them. I have a friend who always talks about like your work should be better than you, that somehow is able to produce things that were actually far more interesting than me, that I w allow myself to be the portal as fully as I could. that I was a good steward of the gifts and talents that I have and the people that I'm close to sort of thought, you know what, Gabby gave it a real go, like and my kids go, you know, because you can't fool them. And so I I I hope that I can earn that from them.

speaker-1: I love that. I bet you have. I bet you have. You're you're a quite a person.

speaker-0: Well I'm working I'm working on it.

speaker-1: Yeah. I th yeah, I guess we're all a work in progress. Even even Gabby Reese, folks.

speaker-0: Every day. Listen, every day there's so much more. And there and there's so many opportunities to be better and wiser and and ⁓ and that's what's exciting about life is that you get up each day and you have that opportunity just to be a little better. And I don't mean make another dollar, have more people know you, but for you for you to be closer to your essence and spirit, right? 'Cause I think I think that's the hope is that I I probably have a certain essence and by childhood certain things get outta whack. It's like how do we really get to our full essence so that when we move on to the next it's like we got back to we did our homework and got back to our real essence.

speaker-1: I love that. There's this beautiful quote by I think it's Roomy, but it's like we're all just walking each other home. Yeah. And and and I think I think we're doing that, right? In in incl in in lots of different ways. Yes. Right, including back home to ourself. Yes. Right. And and really getting back to that and sort of removing some of the layers that get added onto us as we're at different parts in development.

speaker-0: A hundred percent. And and to to end it, I just want to remind people I have no idea. I show up each day and do the best I can. There nobody has the answers. And I and like we don't have to hide. I see that the world makes it that we have to put on all of these facades, like, look how great my life is. Look at my trips. Look at my ass. Look at my thing. It's like, yo, it's not like that for anybody. So why not enjoy the The real thing and and when you feel unsure, go, Yeah, that's how exactly how I'm supposed to feel.

speaker-1: I love that. I think that's a perfect ending. Thank you so much, Gabby Reese. Wonderful having you.

speaker-0: Great to see you, Sarah.

speaker-1: And that's it for today's episode of the XX Lab. If you want more, subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. And if you're enjoying the show, a rating or review helps other people find it. See you next episode.