George: Yes, I'll do. Harris Raftopoulos: Yes you're welcome. Yeah, duh. George: Welcome to our Harris Raftopoulos: you George: What was I How are you? are you? Re-invented. Harris Raftopoulos: Kalla, Kalla, Hola Kalla. This month I many trips, but now we will talk about the next one. In one month, don't you think? yes. For now, yes. George: Will you down for or will come out? next. Harris Raftopoulos: What you doing? What he George: It's funny because there times when we for things, we have to set up meetups, etc. And I a message and I in which country is At what time did I I still think about now. It was the day that it there and it's day it's here. Maybe you're and maybe I woke him up. I'm always insecure about my case. Harris Raftopoulos: You Yeah, yeah, yeah. George: But ok, I finally get you and say, I woke him I woke him up. Let him it. Harris Raftopoulos: Yes, of course. I don't a degree the of so will see it some day. What's on? How are you? George: We had news. It was Every time we talked, what we next time. And only because the weather, things are full of Things are on at a fast pace. You, tell about the trips you What did you and what did you Harris Raftopoulos: I don't know. No. After we talked, I went to to the PHP verse, which is an online event related to PHP. I went as a of Laravel News to do some interviews with the supporters, to reveal the event from some content, which went very well. We talked with lot of people from the PHP Foundation, developers at the core of PHP. George: ... Harris Raftopoulos: It was very interesting, I can say. And the second trip was generally PHP, be It was, I mean, it it Symphony, Laravel, Drupal, core developer and talked, a DevRel who works in automatic for WordPress, that is, completely PHP from all communities. And was very interesting. George: was generally the case. Not Laravel. Nice, nice, very nice. Very nice. What do you Harris Raftopoulos: is him. Yes, let's talk about that. Yes, as you the pencil is... George: I see you, you in the Because we been this 20 years now, that's why... Ok, everyone has their own about the It's time for us our own say what you think. Harris Raftopoulos: Yes, year Mitspi So stop. for some. I believe that those who are to the PHP and are thinking for some reason that version 4 and 5 have stayed there, they have seen how it has progressed, how have changed, how it has evolved. is the PHP Foundation now that receives with various actions and a funding of various developers, as I was told, which until now were the same and worked. They foreign colleagues etc. It has increased a lot. The symphony and Laravel Without them, wouldn't have seen a And there piece that I haven't tried yet. I have seen only in two concerts. It's Franken-PHP. I that is the best thing. We talked to a chord developer of PHP. He has written the Inams, has written other RFCs, that's all and he told me that the Franken-PHP is the best thing that has happened to PHP in last 20 years. Because it is compiled, it is... really improves the language as a language, and believe that we many more pieces in the future of this. Hopefully, we see. George: And now you reminded me don't know, maybe your eyes I'm that after we there, was a place where people for Nuno Maduro, will talk about him later, because we him with us a few days ago Athens. They for very specific thing to to BHP, which finally didn't come. And that's where Franken-BHP that he made a fork, and he decided to continue in parallel way and don't know if it Harris Raftopoulos: I will tell you what everyone expected from the Bitspeed to be the Generics to have the right type-hinting There was a survey, at moment we are recording this episode, about a week ago, 10 days ago, was by a large percentage, that is, 85 % This doesn't mean that will never a generic in PHP. It means that this RFC had some weaknesses, most the people and will be re-examined in the future. Also, those who use tools like PHP Stand, that is, static analysis tools, don't care much about generic in the future. Neither do Because I all the tools that do the same thing as external tools. George: I think they in a similar way, natively, somehow strange. Harris Raftopoulos: So practically there is no other issue. And the Zenerics will have a type of notation, course. George: They to point across, they are through in their own way, You know, it's impressive and it's a long-standing effort. Harris Raftopoulos: Stop. Stop. George: where they it as a complete obligation. And not only that, there also a couple of influencers, don't know, YouTubers and people known to the community, who were very involved in this thing and they made a of and were very with the result. And the a bit strange, the fact Frank and PHP were this fork on the same day. It seemed bit strange Harris Raftopoulos: No, no, no. I want something here. It has nothing to with Franklin PHP. want to clarify. The who did that fork is the team of Swole. Which is basically a Chinese team. So a Chinese team, those who have Swole. We use it in PHP. Kiddelardavele had Swole from back as Engine. That is, has variable. They this fork and they called it Type PHP. As we only have TypeScript. George: ⁓ ⁓ okay. Harris Raftopoulos: in JavaScript, name would TypePHP and they that they will probably put GeneRisk and so there. So many said that it is a good move on the one that it maybe tighten the ropes a bit in PHP to show that there are other things that the community So because they will see that they have a competition, will be to collect it. George: Yes. general, how the planet and all this mess, PHP is dead and PHP is never enough and it is never fast and it is never scalable and it is never for nothing, except WordPress. Schools avoid it, seminars do not show it, general it is not. There is no... Harris Raftopoulos: No. George: It doesn't the same spirit as other religions, man. Harris Raftopoulos: Although, course, only 80 % of the but ok. George: Yes, this hasn't changed. And have made some holes on it, course. By making patents for some scaling problems some years they were needed to do it. Because the PHP5 wasn't the same performance as it is today. Harris Raftopoulos: So. Right. Now we talking 15 years ago. Yes, right. George: I remember that Taylor had made a special version of Laravel to do IAPI only microservices type things. Because was meaningful to do with PHP as was then. When PHP reached version 8 and started to escape performance he to doesn't make any sense to keep this thing. Harris Raftopoulos: There are many things here. No, no, no. Exactly. Exactly. George: do it canonically Harris Raftopoulos: Yes, was Lumen then, remember. He made Lumen for APIs, which, as you say, had no sense to exist So Laravel and it's the same Grigoro. George: the aluminum. Harris Raftopoulos: But yes, the problem I see in this piece about the Bitspeak and its origin and continues to first all, because I talked to the executive director of Bitspeak Foundation in Bitspeakverse, discussed a they will be in some interviews in coming days, I have done, slowly, when I edit, that is, discussed that they will start to get into the is, and foremost, site which It's old, it's not best boarding. They with it, know it. The way the foundation made... George: What? ⁓ Harris Raftopoulos: and how things on the PHP, even the site, it's easy. It can't go to fanart and say, will this. Take it to the limit, I can't say it in has go through a review by a specific member of So they have this difficulty which they have figured out some way to overcome it anyway. So I think that in social media they will rise and that's our time, and the site will and made correctly based on what he at least. So I'm... George: And Harris Raftopoulos: I to happen. ⁓ George: Yes, will help. A better onboarding and a better site will definitely help. I disagree with that. Brent from PHPStorm And there few... Harris Raftopoulos: I know. I'll push that we thank you again. George: Yes, And what else? How much of will change the general feeling that the people about the language? I don't know. I don't think will be huge change in how people perceive the language. I think some training from the inside. From schools, from institutions, etc. to face things and there to start. You have worked with other languages, or less from me, in things with Go, microservices and such things. What you What do have say to those who listen to PHP and say, no, it's not, microservices, eNode, Go, Rust, or anything else, except that? Harris Raftopoulos: I don't want to separate is no comparison with PHP. But let's say that Rusty Go has a comparison. It's up to you to whether to it It depends on what want to What needs be with web, even microservices, there. The truth is that microservices... Even in big companies, has started to be There are many more pieces that are sold in monolith. And logical, because they that microservices need so many maintenance that it doesn't make sense. There were times, I now, not many years ago, 5 years ago, 6 years ago, there was a central service and you 10 microservices. Each one in another language, one Python, one in Go, one in... which doesn't make any sense anymore. They that it's not worth and everything back to the monolith. I think that, as you early. If someone really wants to see more of of the P.E.C.P. I'm saying it's only for Laravel, P.E.C.P. general. It really starts here from the university. My opinion is that should get in and create a project, try it and will realize that it's what you think it And this is also the for the businesses. George: I would say... I would say that microservices generally have enough cases that make sense to break some things in extra services. You may have in another language because they are more correct for the solution you to give. From the PHP there are better tools for some specific things, for AI, for analysis, for such things. So there it make a microservice with the right language, right way to do the right job. Harris Raftopoulos: Thanks. So, yeah, after work, divorce. Fuckin' divorce. George: to a PHP project, break into 100 PHP projects, smaller, which do the same work with APIs that work together, know, to say that the cast of the release will be more autonomous, because don't know, this they with 10 other things and it makes sense, in the end it creates such a I agree, completely with you, and such a maintenance and such a problem, which the have started a bit. and they think about again. They through the government, all of All There a website with five pages. Government! Government! To scale our colloquium. It's not... It's not... Sometimes it doesn't make sense. Harris Raftopoulos: NANANANAS Let's here... Yes, I agree that I didn't make sense. Let's also here that when you a project, any project for example, and you have said it to HP, Laravel, whatever, and it gives you lot and see that it do anything, Laravel has companies like NASA, Nike, if you to their George: Let's let's play. Harris Raftopoulos: And the goes PHP as Sympor and etc. The one that is so fun. It's not So when you something and it and plays well, don't try to change it to another language just because PHP doesn't work while it does. They should try not to find the bad. While there is Because if you for all the things, as we said, positively or negatively, they right? George: Here are to things java. Thank God. Because it's a perfect ending. Harris Raftopoulos: sauce. Nah. Nah, nah, nah, No. George: Okay. don't have anything personal with Java, but it's little impressive if you a business that works very well, as you said, a technology, and you don't have any problems with scaling and other things that you and imagine. To do something like that while you have... Harris Raftopoulos: So start. So start. George: three mechanical that write PHP, start looking for new ones that write Java, and you architects who all have to coordinate this and get into a process, create a code base that works, I say, to, I don't know, to... because it's the right solution, because it will scale way, after... I mean, really... Harris Raftopoulos: No, no, no. George: I am by way of But anyway, we are, alive and kicking, I am with the things that are in the community. Harris Raftopoulos: No, no, no. It's. George: We will help the ecosystem. We with the Meetup, obviously. I think it's of relief to tell me about the Meetup that took place. Tell me what we had a few days because we historical moments. Harris Raftopoulos: to stop. on 11th of June, think. So, it's two weeks now. Exactly two weeks. We had the meetup in Athens, which was probably the biggest meetup has been so for Laravel Greece meetup in Athens. incredible participation, 80 people. We had two very good conversations, very strong conversations, one from Petro, from Efremidi, and the second one came from Portugal, he came to speak to Nuno Maduro, very large part of the Lada Vélique and slowly, slowly also from Pitspi, for which we had spoken in the previous podcast, We got a lot of feedback on the Slack channel of Laravel, which I posted later. Thank you I hope this is the beginning, so can other very strong speakers. And besides that, to show that... And so people that Laravel's scene in Greece is of the powerful in world. It's something that may not be to people, but it's true. It's and... No, no, because it's something that's true, something that was mentioned in the year in the Laracon US, the biggest Laracon in the US that was held in Denver, they brought us on stage as example for the biggest music charts in the world. It's clear that whoever has seen the live stream can go and see it. George: And not because we it. Harris Raftopoulos: and something very honourable for us and something that hopefully help us and the Greek community ideally to show that we are very strong abroad and hopefully many companies in Greece so that they little more active to send the world to communicate, to talk to us, to have conversations with us if they of course. Is that thing to Yes. I what else George: Let's say that this material exists in a stream, in video for anyone who wants to watch it, and the two speeches exist on the YouTube channel of We can also a link later to find it from the podcast. interesting speeches indeed. Very hot topics both, AI Relative both of course. Harris Raftopoulos: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. George: but different way, in the approach of things. And speech of Nounos made a feeling to many people, except that the is obviously, how can it now... Harris Raftopoulos: Thank you. George: A speaker. That's what I thought. He had great stage presence. he many times. He was a showman. He his passion to how he made fun of Not only fun, but in the right ways. A well-worked speech, very careful, with many preamble he said in the Basque language. He in many Harris Raftopoulos: No, no, no. No, no, no. George: Meetup and Congress that has recently. And the topic itself, which also interesting, I don't know, think that... Harris Raftopoulos: Thank you. George: He it because he very interested, because he said that AI is here to stay, we have learn to work with it, but beyond that, things that produced and the way it can, with some special rules and special conditions, make it write little more correctly, little more structured, little more with our He had a series of rules for how he and more careful and not let it go down and should have a set of and that determine how writes, regardless of the model. Because today can be cloud, later it can be something else, but in the rules work, it reads them locally from and from the rules that you have in place. If it's a bit with the types and so on, it more specific things to discuss, was a practice in general, not so much AI, but I wanted to say that since there is the right structure, right architecture, the right way, follow certain patterns, this is what AI and basically follows the way you and the result is much closer to what you would like. It is really helpful, it is not that it take over and writes other perfect things. Harris Raftopoulos: Exactly. a unified result. No, good speech by Nounos. I think we have other good speeches in the future and Petros speech will be very very good. We see. Now it's September, next one. 24th in Athens. The event, if everything goes well. George: For real, for real. which you know about Petros which I saw again, because I started playing with this tool because it necessary for my project and so on. saw the speech again with a bit of hesitation because know, we the Autumy Tap do 20 other jobs at time, so the speeches are not our focus at the moment. Harris Raftopoulos: Okay. George: Yes, yes. But it was very interesting. It a of the point. He more than the tool he used talk about his experience. And it interesting. The polyscope was a nice case. know. me, didn't play out of the box, of I it. It didn't play well for me, initially. I have a strange setup with subdomain. Harris Raftopoulos: Test, sir. Yeah, best. George: with wildcard subdomains, with such weird was a bit tricky to make dynamic URLs, to connect with the head, to play the main site at the time. But testing it never worked in this case. So it didn't really And when I to do it in I no. Harris Raftopoulos: Uh-huh. George: I will change my routing to be simpler and follow more dynamic things because I had made it very strict to follow a specific domain and not to so dynamic. I changed the routing of the application and it to more easily in collaboration with the hand that the user himself So becomes an easy choreography, things made by themselves and they just work. Harris Raftopoulos: No, no, no. George: And it's very nice, very nice, very practical. initial impression for someone who doesn't know it is that it's bit a hassle. You'll 67 tasks at and everything will be at once. It's not that anymore. So many fantastic ideas, have to do at once. This problem Okay, that's why. Basically, like a Git Tree. So you can also... It's a copy, I don't remember the exact it works, is, the in the link we will give. The main issue... Harris Raftopoulos: It's a feature of Git that makes copies like the whole directory and doesn't do work tree. George: A... Yes. But only the beginning It's like R-Sync, only the files that change will be in another type of clone folder, for example. has such logic. But the thing is, because it's 3D that completely independent. It works completely parallel. But this, in order to preview UI things, and to see how exactly works, you see, you will have to a browser to test what you Harris Raftopoulos: So stop. George: which means that you a domain that you can see and it had all this a setup behind it. This is the part that me difficult but generally if you into account to work with this thing because you want to do at the time planning and the same time to make a feature very large and possibly a second which should be a bit of a feature and a bit planning and at the same time come up bugs to in the main branch. All of these make a bit difficult to control things that happen at time. Because until today I just in another branch and I and because there is no team to get it was very simple. So now it more parallel and it was interesting. I the three months I have worked it has helped me a lot. We move very quickly and issues without any problems. And it's fine. It's the point. Harris Raftopoulos: Ok, and I have managed to three parallel tasks. I'm little bit but I'm fine George: Yes. Okay, that's the attention span, How you can watch things more. At time. Yes. Harris Raftopoulos: No, it's a very nice tool. The snowy weather, that the months. It has solved my problems many times. It has some nice settings that you can put some custom, instructions etc. for every specific tree, as you can see. So it's very nice, very powerful. George: I don't how to say it, don't know what the right word to describe it Harris Raftopoulos: Yes, yes. It a UI tool. If you don't like the terminal, you don't like the Cloud Code in Terminal, is the tool for you basically. George: And you I left that aside because you, Fidesz, left that aside. Because you told me that this works with the of the cloud and now that the cloud has started to lock everyone outside except for himself, maybe it will him too and it won't work. And I let him see what will happen when passes 15th. How will it Yes, yes. Harris Raftopoulos: That's happened now, 11th. George: And after June 15th opened the app and what happened? I And I a warning, an alert that because it's 15th and then it and so on, I run into a... like an iframe. All the cloud environment. So I ok, so it playing, so I'll it try to see what happens. Harris Raftopoulos: No, no, no. No, no, no. George: All good. And now that I it, I remember the other day we had these weeks. The myth and all that drama that happened. What was again? What happened again? Harris Raftopoulos: It's a nice tool. Bye! Meh. We had the person who made the Fable 5 and Mythos 5 models, which was released Thursday night, Friday and Saturday. The American government said that is very good for us, the simple ones, so it saying to it. So needed the person to remove it for now. for all non-Americans, even for Americans living outside America, even for the Americans living abroad. And Anthropic obviously wants to do well, as well can with the government. Of it a thought that Anthropic was working with the US military and finally did want to the contracts from there. it may have been a reason for the US to want to the strength of resistance Anthropic. Anyway, important that George: I whoever it was, would have to. Harris Raftopoulos: We don't have the Fable 5 which, as I it and as I the others, was a great model. was 10-15 % better in terms of than the Opus 48. And now we waiting for the spring break, has been about two weeks now. And we OpenAI will not the next model, we are still in 55 and we are in a stable condition, it was a matter of all that happened and we it not happen George: PADUSH! We've this model we've heard lot of gossip, they say they just fakes, they making difference, they are to sell their and from very famous youtubers, not the funny ones, from very famous ones, and finally this thing out, it does only prove it exists, but it is indeed as good as or even better than what someone would expect. Harris Raftopoulos: No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, Marketing, marketing, marketing. No. George: that didn't believe it. So, now the has entered the of the There have been many changes in last period. There are also the beefs we before. The government with the mask and the rest have become a ball and have been re-elected. The issue is, you that don't use this thing. Harris Raftopoulos: No Nice. gross. George: But yes, we that exists, we know that this thing... Harris Raftopoulos: I know that is, and there may be, other teams. And when that happened, I thought that because it could happen again, and it could happen again, how nice it if were serious local models in your running without having to your to your partner, has an open AI etc. George: No, no, Harris Raftopoulos: coding models, and we need any of them. And started looking for them, to be honest, and now a model, the GLM 5.2, which is quite good for local model, it's enough, Well, Fablix not enough for but for local model it's the best thing has come out for a coding piece. George: Yeah. Great! Fantastic! Ok, but what do you mean Because what I at, they said you have some of graphics cards I don't know what. You some Mac Mini data, 1,500 euros each. How? Harris Raftopoulos: That's what I started with. This is a problem. I hope that Apple has helped with the 1.0, 2.0, 5.0 on. I also two days ago a video where have done lot of in the local models, the AI models and so on. Which are with... What was it? I two days ago in a video, I can't it with a link below, where a YouTuber who makes content videos for AI and so on, who writes applications, went to an event of Microsoft in San Francisco and they had some local models for voice, video, coding and everything that now run in 1 gig. I'm 1GB of I have 48GB of here. So we this level where don't need all these resources and we won't have send them online. I wish it quick but... I'm talking about RAM. No, I'm RAM. George: You are about RAM now? You want to GPU? ⁓ Thanks. I was it for few weeks, I a perspective. understand bit about the local models, you it we hadn't discussed yet, we discussing now live. I understood bit better the whole thing about Mac Mini, what exactly happened, why all this and especially why the Mac Mini and all. I it a bit how it rolled out in my I understood things. Now there is no such as a think can't buy a Mac Mini with 64GB. Harris Raftopoulos: No, no, no. George: they have cut them from so you have to take a smaller amount and it in the health care to do some work and yes, the cost is as much Harris Raftopoulos: Maybe they have gone far away, to see each George: The more these local the bigger the issue will privacy in data, many companies this issue. can't just out and do a walk on planet's cloud servers. It's possible. There some things that can't be by some companies. And of course, now they out, so let's that. Harris Raftopoulos: So. So stop. So stop. Well, if you think they won't out... If you think they won't out... Because, how would I if they or I mean, you never it needs to good. That's point. George: They out normally, with speed. There are some big organizations that have some shock and some kind of... They have some of and theoretically they can't do it legally, they are more But now with a very large percentage of market, are smaller companies that have equally important data to be and they everywhere. We are talking that. Harris Raftopoulos: Yeah. So stop. And if you don't use them, you can use some dummy data, which is logical, instead of regular data. You stay behind. You have the developers who don't let use AI and you have the need to be productive and fast etc. George: You a topic now, really for another podcast, but yes, I 100 % with you. keep that for next time, because it has been that are companies that still looking to what they with this thing. And yes, are interested this thing. Harris Raftopoulos: It's here. It's here. It's here. It's here. And one last thing before we I say that I was in Laravel Live UK, place last week, Friday. It very nice event, very powerful. weren't many people, compared to other events, were about 250 people. Laravel Live was held in Lowent, George: in Harris Raftopoulos: A of But the family atmosphere is Compared to other events like Japan or the big that have thousands of there you go and talk to people, you people, time together, it's very different with this part. Very good conversations. Very good speakers. Very good conversations. had good conversations. Yes, conversations like the day he 12, 13, 14. George: Too many speeches. ⁓ good, good. ⁓ Harris Raftopoulos: I it was 12, no, No, this is a bad thing, Pavel, that Larvel Live UK doesn't stream or record When you're not there, don't see it all. So my own speech doesn't exist for Larvel Live UK, but I the same speech in Japan, so there's no difference. And this a topic for events. George: Is there a stream for that? Harris Raftopoulos: that they don't record them or stream them, they you that you have to come. So, force you come if you Yes, It was a strange decision. It is a cost, clearly. Because we to the organizer, is clearly a of cost. George: to stream. Harris Raftopoulos: recording and streaming is a big cost for them. George: So this is limitation, it's not a of a myth, or making good speech, that you should be here to watch, kisses. Harris Raftopoulos: No, no, this is end. No, is a matter of and it may help the visitors to go closer. It's a clear question. many books that were in England will be in Denmark at the end of August. 21, 22, I don't remember now. I know that the recording I don't know if will be live again, but the recording will be done for George: Nahara. Nahara. And before that you had a lot of fun, right? Is this Harris Raftopoulos: So in one month, July 27-28, will be George: When I up I want to to US It's my to grow up. I will it. Harris Raftopoulos: That's a part of us here. It will happen, I believe it happen. It's it or is it number one for me? The climate, the people are... George: Until then... I want bother the developers, That's what I want. I don't know. I'm very with integrations because of platforms I run, from Billit, recently. Once again I into a company, a very large payment gateway, which... Harris Raftopoulos: No. Have good one. Let's finish. Jumpers. George: I don't know, it's like they want to torture us, sometimes. Very badly written documentation. Harris Raftopoulos: ⁓ George: I don't know why there such a in with this thing. And then you okay, I'm falling into a problem that I can't solve, let me talk to the support. And there begins the big cry. First level support, you sure you put the breeze. Harris Raftopoulos: That's what I to how does it to level support? George: We go further. Send me screenshots. Harris Raftopoulos: Have you been sedated? I have a serious question. think that the AI for first level support would be much better? I a hot take here. George: Buona mania, sicura. Sure, it's also very busy. this company has AI to answer an agent there. you ask, don't something general, I'm but it could be three words, a very small paragraph, and it turns an A4 answer. Harris Raftopoulos: Nah. Yes, have to know how operate the AI, how to create the agent, it's not just to exist. George: I would yes, but ask me what happened, you can't read an A4? It's possible to get an A4 answer needs some tuning. Harris Raftopoulos: Yes. They actually copy and your role They you, is the read it. That's I George: Yes, it's not bad. But it doesn't always solve the problem. I'm telling you, my problem was a very H &H thing, was... what can now? didn't turn into an It was an error that didn't turn Harris Raftopoulos: If there is a documentary, it's good. George: And when I to the support, he said... I have a lot to really. It has a button. It a button and it says, Send error logs. What do you Harry? When it a button, you have downloaded a demo application to test something. And it a button and it Send error logs. What do you understand what this button does? Harris Raftopoulos: You you you it alone. No. No. The seller will log in to support or to some log system that the company That's logic. George: That's what I they there, they what's your should be, send us minimum of 8 points and we'll it for you. Send it to us. Yes, What you have downloaded is the Demo app and the Demo app the button doesn't anything. Harris Raftopoulos: So stop, so stop, so stop, so stop. Nah, nah, ⁓ and why is it then? George: I man. Because I It exists in the production version, so if we don't have EVE there, EVE demo then this, yes, the other Let him press the button and think that he the problem. When they the phone and say, ah, sir, I saw your yes, they have problem, I will help you. Harris Raftopoulos: ⁓ George: and I've pressed the button 20 times right? And the girl there me, level 1 support over there, I my because there is a special task force for these things, that the button doesn't in the demo. Some things, really. Harris Raftopoulos: Nice. And even though the button on the demo, how can you these words? You have to read them through a process or... It just George: I can't... No, you can't. You can't. You can't. You don't work for yourself? I know. I whatever you By way, I say? I've done... You we're developers now. Before we a ticket, we'll do a debugging for hour or two. I did a debugging Harris Raftopoulos: Yeah, got some. No, no, no, no. No. So stop. No. George: I talked to you 3-4 different devices, your device is the only one that played, no other one played, ⁓ but this meant a series of things, anyway, had done the checks, I inform them about all of these, what exactly the problem, I them screenshots, they tell me send screenshots with the problems, I send them screenshots and they don't me. We can't open the files you us. Harris Raftopoulos: No, no, George: Because I made screenshots from the iPhone and the file was HAKE, the customer that can't open the HAKE file. I a URL from behind, HAKE to JPEG online cloud free service. I send the URL, please translate it you I can't open such a URL, can you please me some other form? That is, the stupidity and the support. Harris Raftopoulos: No, no, no, no. In echo, in eos, Kady. No, no, no, no. Okay. George: Not only in development, but I try to two systems to bring customers and money and eat wood without a shovel. It's not interesting for anyone. Because if you are a very small fish, you don't have to about a fish Harris Raftopoulos: then I know No. Look, usually, because we have seen other supports, start from the from the for me, not interested and they go to the last level. Because if they interested, would have been some procedures, some systems that would have been built correctly, would not be this madness for people who want to bring you money. Because in the end... except if you of the monopoly. That's another Or the monopoly, what's That's another George: But look, companies that have invested in DX, in Developer Experience, we have seen that worked, and that they had absolute success. Stripe, that's it Stripe. Because developers Okay. I it, this thing It's not... Harris Raftopoulos: And that's That's That's the stripe in the top. That's the stripe in the top. George: Developers, developers, developers, developers. That's our said in Microsoft. It's like that. If you this thing to work with 10 more, you have to respect it. To make tools, etc. Harris Raftopoulos: Nah, nah, nah, nah, Let's about Stripe. At this event, the one that I'm the youtuber went, at event of Microsoft, where Stripe they already I don't know if it's online or not, but if it's it be soon, Stripe which is like Wise. Basically, you your money in Stripe. will be like a bank. So now competition is So, if these companies which do invest in development in will be more and companies that George: Nice, super! I we it very nice today. I know if you to add Harris Raftopoulos: See you now. I to add that the next event, Laravel Greece Meetup in Athens will be 24th and in Thessaloniki will be... I will the calendar in In Thessaloniki will be on October 8th, if everything goes well. if someone is interested, wants to send us message on the Slack of Laravel.gr please go and find it. Otherwise, send an email to community at Laravel.gr, to speak to me and George. And we be very happy to have you with us. The Laravel Meetups are the best way to start a public speaking with friends. The easiest and easiest way. And we to see you from close. That's what I George: super super until the next time Have one! Harris Raftopoulos: See you