Scott Harkey: Hey everybody and welcome to season two of the PayCLT Payments Hub Podcast, sponsored by Finzly I'm your host, Scott Harkey, and this season we're going to be diving deeper into the lives of some of the local payment professionals here in Charlotte to learn about their journey into the payment space. We hope you'll join us. Hey everybody, we're excited today to have Rami from Spider. I Rami, I saw on the notes, is it Go Spider or Spider? I don't I don't know if I throw the go in there or not.

Ramy S: No, Go is just because we couldn't find a domain, so it became Go Spider as the domain, but the company is Spider. So

Scott Harkey: That's what I figured. That's what I figured. Not not a bad way to get the URL, I'll say. Go Ghost Spider has a ring to it. So welcome, Rami. Great, great to see you today.

Ramy S: Thanks. Thanks for having me.

Scott Harkey: Absolutely. All right. Well, why don't you give us a quick overview of your y us you know, who you are. Let's say you know, a little bit about your background and tell us a little bit about Spider and the process too, what you guys do.

Ramy S: Yeah, absolutely. So I like to say I'm a a recovering banker or former banker that found entrepreneurship in fintech and is now addicted to it. but I've you know spent most of my career in financial services, both at large banks like V of A and Wells Fargo, did some consulting, and even worked at the University of North Carolina. So, you know, everything but the the federal government I've probably worked for. but really found my home in fintech and financial services and currently working on a company called Spider. we're a platform to help you launch your own embedded banking products. So think anything from debit cards, DDA, savings, prepaid, credit cards. we give you everything you need from a technology perspective, from the issuer processor. Through fraud compliance as well as all the tools you need to run your program, the dashboards, the fraud cues, and so on. So and of course, you know, it wouldn't be a twenty twenty six without some AI buzzwords. And of course, we've got that in the platform as well. So

Scott Harkey: yeah. Got gotta have some AI. Gotta have some AI. who who's your customer, Rami? Is it is it FinTechs? Is it banks? Like who are you selling to?

Ramy S: yeah, so we partner with banks. we don't we don't charge our banks But we sell to fintechs and established businesses. So fintechs is typically earlier stage, they've raised some money, they're looking to get off the ground, or established businesses that have clients that they're already serving, they have a business, and this is a way for them to expand their offerings to their clients, capture more revenue, make them more sticky, and serve their clients in a way they haven't before.

Scott Harkey: Okay, so I'm a fintech, I serve some vertical or some customer set. I wanna embed some banking services. You guys help enable that for them. Is that right?

Ramy S: Yeah. So if you're FinTech, or even if you're not, right? So one of our clients, for example, is a third-party benefits provider. they typically help companies with finding healthcare plans, dental, medical, etc. They would typically refer out to another company's HSA program. With our platform, they're able to offer their own HSA program. And so again, it's a way for them to. do more for their clients and keep that in-house.

Scott Harkey: Got it. Okay. That makes sense. I know I know you and also know from the background you just said, right? You you've kind of been immersed in this space for a long time. H have you always been interested in in kind of financial services and fintech and this technology financial services intersection, or did you did you stumble into it with a job along the way? Like how'd you end up in this space?

Ramy S: So I'd say I'm I was always interested in the tech part and I became more interested in the fin part. So I started my c my you know, I've always been a computer nerd at Tinkerer, you know, and enjoyed building software and my first job was in that space as well. working for for the University of North Carolina in their HR information systems department. And when I left that job I went to business school and that's when I first got introduced to the banking world. and and I did a came out of business school and went to B of A's or Bank of America's leadership development program, which is a rotational program, which for me was awesome because I knew the tech part, but I knew nothing about financial services. I was like I have a lot of debt Let me see how I can get out of debt because the banks will probably help me help me get out of debt. and for me that was exciting because it was an opportunity to figure out how this works. you know, got to be in the deposits line of business, in the credit card line of business, even did a stint mortgage, helped out through the countrywide acquisition. And it was eye opening of like, wow, this this is like a super One interesting space, but it's also so deeply ingrained in every aspect of business and every aspect of the economy. and that sort of clicked for me. I was like, okay, this is like I think I want to stay in this this space, and ultimately how do I get back to my tech part of the roots, which I really enjoy. So

Scott Harkey: Yeah, I I I share the the love for the kind of combination of those two elements, right? The the tech and the the financial services and have have certainly spent my career in that same space. I'm curious, we're we're about the same age or or at least the same generation. in your I I relate to your like tinkering with computers. Like, do you remember how old you were when you got your first computer?

Ramy S: So we we had one in the family room. So it was the family computer and then I saved up enough money to basically build my own from either parts I borrowed slash bought secondhand from my friends or bought new which was a big a big moment. that was probably eighth grade, I'd say would be the time my first had my my own personal one. and loved it. And I remember I remember my parents, you know, they're wonderful, but they're not the most tech advanced. And so it opened up a world of things that I could do that they weren't aware of. but of course the one thing that I chose to do first was was we were pretty strict at our house about how much TV you could watch. But I bought a TV card for my computer and then I split the cable in behind the wall and I ran it to my room and so basically I could watch the cable. on my computer without them knowing. So it's those types of things where

Scott Harkey: That's amazing.

Ramy S: I was like, this is I like this stuff. This is fun.

Scott Harkey: Yeah. It's it's such a it's such a fun to think about 'cause it's such a different world to to now, right? Like I was telling someone recently about the same thing, right? Building computers and just that that whole time period of like you'd get the components, whether you got for friends or you'd you save up and go buy something, right? And assembling them and put together and It's it peop people now don't even understand like what are you talking about? Like how how did you get it open? How would you even put those pieces together? It's like, it was this giant box, right? It looked like a mini refrigerator.

Ramy S: Exactly.

Scott Harkey: And and yeah, and you if you were really cool, you'd put neon lights in it and fans and and you know, you'd really

Ramy S: Yeah.

Scott Harkey: duck it out. But good stuff, good stuff. So I I you know, I I think one of the really interesting things about your journey has been just all the different kind of phases you've gone through, right? Whether it's been working for the large banks or various startup experiences or now what you're doing with Spider, like is there is there common thread o other than financial services, like is there a common thread across that journey and what you've done in each of those places?

Ramy S: So I would say the common most common threat I would have is the application of technology. So don't get me wrong, I love technology for technology's sake, that it's cool, it's interesting, it's fun. But what I enjoy most is how you use it to either improve people's lives or do things better. And for me, that's the intersection that I've carried through in my career. So when I my first job out of college, I was working for for the University University of North Carolina Chapel Hill in their HR Information Systems Department, which as you can imagine was about as sexy as it gets. It's payroll benefits, recruiting. And when I started, they were literally handing paper work paper notebooks around yellow manila folders that would have people's job applications printed out. And they would go from the recruiting assistant to the recruiter and then it would go back. And I was like, you know a twenty one old going, Well, is this real? Is this like actually what's happening?

Scott Harkey: Yeah.

Ramy S: You know, that you would submit it online and then someone would print it out and and it would move around. And so I remember one of the first projects I worked on was how do we digitize that? How do we build a system to track those applications and to move things electronically? And it was kind of that aha moment. It's like, okay, like take the stuff you've been learning about and having fun with, building databases and building you know small little applications and actually make it something that is valuable and helps people do their job better and makes it easier. and that's been the thread throughout my career. You know, when I went to Bank of America, a lot of those projects were also on how do we digitize things or how do we create new capabilities that allow customers to have better experiences. Like it's it's silly now, but you know, text banking was one of the projects I worked on at B of A. And you know back at the time we were like, wow, you can send text messages and get your balance. And that was before mobile apps. So that's always been the thing that's been consistent for me no matter where I've been, is how do you how do you take what you love and know, the technology, and use it to actually improve things?

Scott Harkey: So here's the real question. I don't know exactly how long ago that was that you were it at UNC doing that work, but would you have guessed that twenty years later or whatever it was, that would still be a problem to solve with organizations that they're still printing out paper and handing it around as opposed to having it fully digitized? You'd you'd like to think that had been solved by then, right?

Ramy S: I would like to, but I wouldn't be surprised and I'll tell you why. So the first thing I built was a proof of concept in an MS access Microsoft Access database. It was literally supposed to be a proof of concept. I probably took it a little bit further than it should have been as far as features functionality. Two years after I left, it was still being used. And I was like, okay, so they haven't invested in making this any better. They have not. you know, I I I think that's one of those things. It's inertia is really hard to overcome, especially in large organizations, because it's there, it's working. Why change it if you know, why invest in that versus something else? And especially at a public university, you know, the the profit motive is not there in the same way it is at a at a corporation to improve. So Do you have inside information though? A are you saying that it's still that way?

Scott Harkey: Well no, no. I I wouldn't be surprised. I wouldn't be surprised. Ten ten years as a consultant tells me that there are lots of organizations still passing paper around, right? Still still lots of opportunity there. you know, one of the things that resonates about that story to me is so I I it's maybe not surprisingly, very similar background. And and my first job at a school was at actually at a bank. and it was in the mortgage department. And a big part of what I did to kind of get into this space was very similar and and it was with access. I I was bu using Visual Basic to build essentially front-end interfaces to access the data because the problem that I was solving for was the line of business had these needs. They weren't big enough needs with enough of business case to like officially engage technology to go build them. So they were kind of just stuck with like these gaps and these needs. But I'm like, hey, like I know computers, right? Like I can build some things. And I figured out like what databases we could get access to within Access, right? And

Ramy S: What?

Scott Harkey: then just built forms on top of it and built some workflows. And, you know, again, probably went a little too far in like building out things. But but I think the common theme in that is just that it's almost like career advice to somebody, right? Of like, especially if you're trying to find like area to add value and and you don't really know a lot yet about the business context or about, you know, these kind of things that you learn over time. Finding little spaces like that with whatever the tool set is. Right now the tool set's probably AI, right? But like whatever the tool set of the time is, finding ways to solve little business problems with technology, like that, that's a winning formula, right? Like, and if you if you really own that skill, you and I both, right, you can build a whole career off of that. It'll it'll look different over time, but like that's a magical space to add value.

Ramy S: A hundred percent. And it's funny you say that because if I think back on well, what was the process I went through to to build that? And I'm sure you went through something similar is well, I started talking to people. I said, Well, what do you do today with this? And how do I how okay, what would you do better if you could? And without even realizing what it was, you were doing kind of product research and you were doing,

Scott Harkey: Right.

Ramy S: you know, requirements and in fine refining them and testing. And it was just sort of like organically happening before you even knew it was That's what you were doing. Nobody I was like, I'm gonna now product manage this thing. It was just like, I'm gonna go solve this problem. And so a hundred percent like it, you know, I still do those things today. Talk to clients, understand what's what's a challenge for them, how can we help them? and go from there. So yeah, it's true.

Scott Harkey: Yeah, absolutely. All right. Well, I know with Spider, you know, starting a business, building a business, it's hard, right? There's there's lots of parts of it that are hard. but I guess what have been some of the things that have kind of surprised you in that journey and and you know, things you've had to work through or challenges you've overcome, but like give people a sense of some of the things that are the most surprising or hardest or unexpected?

Ramy S: You know, one of the things that still despite having been call it having worked at startups or having had my own startups for the last fourteen, fifteen years, that I still haven't gotten into. And beyond it being hard, is just the roller coaster ride that it is. And so you'll have great days, you'll have bad days, you'll have great days and bad days moments in the same day. And being able to ride those out and not get too excited, not get too depressed or too too discouraged is super, super important for the health of the business and the health of yourself. Right. and so that's one thing I was, you know, and you talk to any founder, especially one who's been going for a little while, you know, our joke is always you want to have good more good days than bad days, because that's kind of a a positive growth. And just reminding myself that because coming off of a of a corporate job, which I had in between my my last startup and this one, you kind of forget that a little bit. Yeah, you it's not that you don't have good days and bad days, but the personal impact isn't as much because it's not the future of the company that you've been trying to build. It's, you know, y you had a bad meeting or whatever. so that's something I was trying to keep in mind. And then the second is things always always take longer than you expect. The happy path is almost never the path that your company is gonna take. And so it's always a matter of planning ahead farther, allowing for a significantly bigger cushion, and knowing that anything that's not in your control is probably gonna go wrong. And how do you adjust for it and come up with contingency plans? because that's one of those things, you know, with Spider, when it comes to product development, we're in control of that, you know. We can build the features, we can do the integrations, we can make sure everything's working. But if, for example, one of our partners doesn't do what they're supposed to do or has some sort of delay, well, that takes everything and slows it down as well. So understanding those intricacies is really important, especially in fintech, because it's really hard to do anything in a silo. You know, some of these folks that are really lucky they're building things in non-financial services space where it's like, well, yeah, I connect to Google or I connect to, you know, these these providers that are very large, very consistent, and very quick, where we're connecting to systems that are not always bad. So those are probably the two things I'd say is just, you know, the lessons that I've repeatedly had to learn on there.

Scott Harkey: Yeah. I think what what I find interesting about that second part is pe people think of startups or talk about startups as, you know, they can move faster, they can execute it, which is totally true, right? Compared to like a a larger kind of organization. But I think I think people miss what you just said of like, especially in a B2B startup, like you often like move the business at the pace of the customer, right? And that you you can develop whatever you want, but like to sell it or to like actually get work going to drive revenue, to drive like you're you're somewhat beholden to the customer and the pace of the customer's ability to adopt it or incorporate it or whatever. And I think that sets, you know, I shared a similar kind of journey around that and just the realization of that of yeah, like you you want to take advantage of the things that you can do more quickly and and as a as a startup or as a smaller company. but you kind of you kind of run into some of the same walls of like, you know, if it takes six months to sign the contract, well like that's that's six months you're waiting to get the contract. And then if the, you know, the partner's implementation timeline is another six months or nine months or a year or two year, like you're so beholden to their timing and ability. I don't know if you found any ways to like how do you help accelerate your partner's ability to deliver faster, right? How do how do you kind of help speed the cycle by helping them find ways to to build or deliver or integrate faster? Have you found anything have found anything in particular that that works well there?

Ramy S: Some things, yeah. And and what you said is is absolutely correct too on the client side too. I I think quite often more on the partner side, but the client side is supremely important. So we've we've done a couple of things. So one on the partner side, it's sort of foundational to the benefit you get with Spider, which is we've done the integrations with a lot of the partners you would need to get to market. We've signed the contracts with a lot of the partners you need to get to market. So When a client comes to us and they need a processor and they need a fraud vendor and a you know AML vendor, they're not having to go out and hunt and find all those partners and negotiate deals and sign contracts and then do those integrations. Because with us, they sign one contract, do one integration, and they're off and running. And so we've taken advantage of the fact that there is so much friction in that process to to to be a competitive advantage for us in the platform. That's one thing that was also big realization in general. It's like we can cut down on that startup time, whether you're, you know, starting from scratch or moving over from another provider. On the customer side, because it's a great point, especially as an early stage company, key for you is revenue. Get that revenue in the door. It helps extend your runway. It also helps you go raise money from investors to to grow the business even more. And so we learned to put a clock essentially on the timeline between signing the contract and when the minimums kick in. Because you could find, you know, an early client that, whether it was their fault or another partner's fault, weren't able to launch, and you're just sitting here waiting and waiting and potentially incurring costs at the same time. so we learned all right, let's put a clock in. It motivates the client. And it motivates us to make sure we hit that date, right? on there. And that's been super helpful for us. So

Scott Harkey: How how did you come up with what the reasonable timeline is?

Ramy S: I think no.

Scott Harkey: That's what I'd do, but I assume you have a more sophisticated approach.

Ramy S: yeah. for for those listening, I put my finger in the air. But the the my index finger in the air. So what we do is we trying to get a f a sense of what their go-to-market plan is because typically for us our clients are going to implement on our platform, have a product that they want to then get in the hands of customers, and they have themselves a scale or ramp up period that they're trying to hit. And so we build that timeline based on that. we do have internally kind of an upper limit of what we what we're willing to do. But usually most clients want to move faster and and so we're within that limit. it's not a science per se, but we try and and align it with the client's rollout plans.

Scott Harkey: It makes sense. It makes sense that it'd be dynamic based on the client and what they're trying to achieve. So that that makes total sense. Maybe maybe one additional area to kind of talk about a little bit before we we talk a little bit about Charlotte is just we think about product design and and kind of product development more broadly. I'm curious about User feedback and market research specifically. And just again, you've been through this a number of times, not just in the context of Spider, but at other places and and and other startups you've had as well. Like how do you incorporate that into what you're building? How do you know what to listen to, what not listen to, and how do you let that influence ultimately what you build into the product?

Ramy S: Yeah, it's a good question. So we you know, and I I can use spider as an example, but in general, I it's always a there's the traditional build versus buy. So is you know, but even before that, it's a assessment of is this truly a need for our clients that we should be solving? so in the context of a B2B, right? and if the answer is yes, there and and we look at it as is it part of our core competency? are there other clients that would want the same feature or capability that we're going to be building? and is it profitable for us, right? Or at least does it help us differentiate in the market, right? So there's some initial screener type questions that we'll ask ourselves. Of whether or not we should even be doing this. If the answer is yes from there, well, then it goes into your traditional build versus buy. Is this something that we should be building into our platform directly, owning this from top to bottom, or is there a partner that we should be using that does this really well and candidly either does it better than we ever could, or it isn't a core competency for us that we feel we need to differentiate on? you know, for example, We're probably never going to be a KYC provider, a know your customer provider. That's just not our core competency and it's not necessarily an area that we could really differentiate ourselves on. However, we may bring in a new provider that does better with a particular customer base, perhaps underserved or underbanked folks or international folks or something like that. So once we go through the bill versus buy, then it's a matter of doing the integration. And also making sure that we can keep an appropriate margin on top of that to make it profitable for us. and that we take that approach with everything because we get asked all the time, we'd love for you to do ABC. And sometimes we're saying absolutely, and sometimes we say it's not the right fit for us, but here's somebody who can do it for you.

Scott Harkey: Do you ever come back around to those things? Like if you you maybe you made the decision not to do it, but then, you know, six months, a year later, suddenly more people are asking for it or the product evolves enough to where it's like, Well, actually now that does align.

Ramy S: Absolutely. Yeah. a a good example of that is FX. So one of our early clients, you know, a core part of their value proposition was FX or is FX. And they wanted to get it from us because they were getting literally everything else from us. And we said, look, it's just not something that we feel is right for us to take on right now, given the stage of the company and the the needs of some of the other clients that we're seeing either in the pipeline or that we've signed. Fast forward to now, we've had multiple clients asking about it. And so like, okay, let's revisit this because suddenly it is,

Scott Harkey: Right.

Ramy S: you know, back to those first questions, is it something that people want? Is it something we'd be profitable with? And so on. So it's never a finite decision in in 99% of the cases. So

Scott Harkey: All right. Well, let's pivot to talking about the Charlotte scene a little bit. you know, part of the intent of this podcast and this season is really to focus on people in the Charlotte community as as we've learned through some of your past experience, but also just some of the things happening around in Charlotte. So what what about what about Charlotte's exciting to you, right? Like what's happening in either the fintech scene or banking scene or more generally in Charlotte that's got you excited or that that you're feeling good about these days?

Ramy S: So much, honestly. so I I I like to think I have a bit of an interesting point of view in that I lived in Charlotte from 2007 to 2010 ish and then moved away up to New York. Well, went went to LA for a little bit, then up to New York, and then moved back down at the end of twenty sixteen. And so just from that first period to when I came back, Shaw had changed significantly from a city growth perspective. We had like nine new towers in uptown and and the light rail had

Scott Harkey: Yeah.

Ramy S: been built out and all of a sudden there were these young people out in the evening, which I'd never seen before, even back when I was a young person. I guess we're still young. I don't know. Young young at heart. But it was exciting to just see that In general, growth of the city. And I think what that's led to is not only the growth being led by large corporations coming in and and hiring more folks, but getting in younger people that are earlier in their career and and more hungry. And so as a result of that, we're starting to see more late stage fintech companies coming in, SoFi, Wayflyer, you know, Coinbase, because they're looking for those young, hungry folks versus, you know. folks like me and you maybe who are a little more established and lazy and fair fair enough. Me.

Scott Harkey: Hey, easy now. Careful.

Ramy S: and then but also just seeing so many more startups, especially fintech startups in the space. again, taking a look, even just three years ago I went to a dinner that was put on and we had, I think it was, you know, call it ten to fifteen people at the dinner went to it. just the other day and there were closer to 45 fintech founders there. And in just three years, it tripled in size, basically. And that's to me, that's awesome. It's like, okay, people recognize you can build companies in Charlotte, you can be successful. And as we see more and more folks go through the cycle, so I'm excited to see, you know, the passport mafia folks, right? They're they've been at an early stage fintech that was successful. or early stage company that was successful. They've now since gone off and started their own companies. They've gotten investment from from the founders to help them get going. and that virtuous cycle is so critical to a a startup ecosystem that in the past Charlotte didn't have compar especially compared to New York or the Bay Area. And so being able to see that is really exciting, especially as a as a founder too. So

Scott Harkey: Yeah, I totally agree with all of that. And I do think that that cycle is important, right? If you you if you've got a lot of great startups but none of ever get to the other side or have the exit and stay, right, then you you lose a bit of that like flywheel momentum. So it's great. It's great when you see one kind of make it through that and and people stick around and like you said, start new things and and build things. All right, well final question. if you could have dinner with any influential figure in payments or banking, past, present, don't have to be alive, who would it be and what would you want to talk about?

Ramy S: so there are a lot of people I'd like to chat with. I think one that would be interesting just based on the changes we're seeing now is is former CEO of Citibank, his name is Walter Riston. And he wasn't he like he wasn't the most famous of the CEOs there, but He and I was I was reading an article about this, but he basically oversaw them during the 70s and 80s, so when technology was really starting to get embedded into banks, right? And a lot of the new systems and rails were implemented. Shockingly, some we still use today. But and just how you navigated changing from branches completely person-based approach to a much more technology forward bank and and approach to managing your business and comparing that to today where you know what it we've taken it from is you know very relationship-based and product based banking world to to some degree the products are very commoditized and you know a checking account from A or And bank A and Bank B are basically the same, right? to a distribution and technology based approach. And to say, you know, what to talk to them about are you seeing parallels here? do you see this going as extreme as some people do to where banks aren't even needed anymore, right? Because you know, there are blockchain based currencies or or non, you know, deposit based approaches to taking things. Just somebody who's been through V1 of this transformation and to get his feelings and and insights of where we are today, honestly. So

Scott Harkey: Yeah. That that would be pretty fascinating. Right. I I think his his history tends to repeat itself. So certainly learning from someone who has seen a cycle and and what those takeaways are would be super interesting. All right, Rami. Well, thank you so much for your time today. It's been an awesome conversation. appreciate the chance. I feel like we know each other pretty well, but I still learned a ton of stuff in this conversation. So I really appreciate it and really appreciate your time.

Ramy S: Yeah, likewise. And thanks for having me and thanks for what you do in the community, man. So it's it's awesome.