Matt Killeya: Hello and welcome to Strictly Deothermal, the official podcast of the National Deothermal Centre. I'm Matt Killier. Charlotte: and I'm Charlotte Adams. Matt Killeya: And we're back again and this is episode four, isn't it Charlotte of our podcast. Charlotte: It is, I think we're getting better at this now, aren't we, Matt? Matt Killeya: Well, I'd like to think so. And today we're going to focus on policy. We're all about policy. we're obviously banging the drum to try and spread the word about the huge potential for geothermal in the UK. And today we thought we'd focus on some of the barriers in terms of policy, regulation, all those kind of things. Charlotte: Good. Matt Killeya: So we're really lucky to be joined by the geothermal and heat decarbonization lead at the Renewable Energy Association, the RAA, Neil McLaughlin. And we'll be chatting to him in a minute. Charlotte: Yeah. Hmm Yeah, and we're delighted to have Neil join us, not least because the National Geothermal Centre has recently formed an MOU with the Renewable Energy Association. So we've had the pleasure of working with Neil past months and his enthusiasm is very infectious, which I hope you will pick up as part of this conversation we're going to have today. So it's great to have us with us, Neil. Thank you very much for joining us today. Neil McLoughlin: Thank you so much, Charlotte and Matt. It's it's great to be here. I I remember you mentioning to me a few months ago that you were going to start doing a podcast and I was really excited to to get the opportunity to to be here. So thank you. Charlotte: We appreciate it. And as Matt has already mentioned, you're the geothermal and heat decal lead at the Renewable Energy Association. And can you tell us about the moment that geothermal first caught your imagination? Neil McLoughlin: I think the first moment which might, you know, resonate with a lot of people was when I was younger, I used to be a fan, I used to collect the National Geographic magazines, and I remember seeing those pools in Iceland, which I believe some of them is just the effluent water of geothermal power stations that people are just bathing in. and th those beautiful kind of blue azure. pools that are that are heated with geothermal wastewater. And that I was always aware you could do it in Iceland, but I thought you needed sort of major volcanic activity, which I think if anyone does know about geothermal, that is what what the assumption is. And then you know I I I get involved in renewable energy. I have a a few years experience now advocating on behalf of of climate technology. And I was joined the Renewable Energy Association. Heard that we held the secretariat for the geothermal APPG and thought, that's quite cool. And it was only meant to be a small part of my job. But then I suddenly it was just in meeting after meeting, just from my first week in this role, which is now coming up to a year ago, and I I just caught the bug and I was like, this is amazing. This is excellent and has challenges, has issues, but incredible potential. It's already being done in multiple comparable countries, and we should be doing it more in the UK. Charlotte: Thank you. Neil McLoughlin: so yeah, that I I think just from the moment I really started engaging with it seriously, it caught my imagination. Charlotte: And think both you and your organisation have the potential to make a big difference and indeed you're already doing so. Neil McLoughlin: I thank you. Likewise, I hope so. I hope so. Matt Killeya: It's great to hear your enthusiasm Neil and I'm looking forward to talking more about geothermal with you through this podcast. But before we do that, let's just take a step back and talk about the REA. just tell us a bit, explain a bit more about what exactly the REA is and what it does. Neil McLoughlin: So the Renewable Energy Association, it's our 25th birthday this year, actually, and we are one of the country's largest renewable energy trade associations. We have, I think, 450 members or so, and we we really represent a whole range of technologies. we do organics, composting, energy demand and grid flexibility. Charlotte: Thanks. Neil McLoughlin: solar and energy storage and batteries, a data center working group, a heat decarb working group, geothermal energy forum. So so we we really cover the whole range and breadth of the supply chain of geothermal. And we one of the main things we do is we convene our members and non-members in you know through a bunch of events that we do, but also forum meetings. And we try and figure out right what it what is the bet what are the best policies to advocate Charlotte: on the next issue of program. Neil McLoughlin: Government, what best messages to put to government, to put to MPs, to put to ministers? And to try and basically get the government to realise all of this stuff needs to be on your agenda. And if it's not, then you are you're going to continue relying on problematic supply chains from other countries or continue to be totally susceptible to energy shocks that are out of our control, that immediately hit the wallets of taxpayers. Charlotte: I'm sorry. Neil McLoughlin: So it's not just about pushing some green woke agenda or anything like that. It is the betterment and increasing the resilience of the UK economy and our society. It just so happens that it also makes our air better and ends up being a much reliable source of energy. You know, green energy is it it it also, I think it was a million jobs now. it's Charlotte: . . Neil McLoughlin: produced in the United Kingdom. So it it is just better in so many ways. And that's what our mission is. Charlotte: Thank you Great, thank you. And obviously being part of the Renewable Energy Association, which covers all renewable tech, through your colleagues and your wider work, you'll have a really good view on how geothermal fits into the renewables landscape. So what are your opinions on how that fit is? And you've alluded to some of the advantages there, but what kind of gaps do you think that geothermal can fit that isn't covered by some of the other renewable technologies? Neil McLoughlin: So I think I'd I'd start by saying that the government has gone hell for leather on decarbonizing the grid, decarbonizing electricity, which is a great endeavor and I I fully support it. But the reality is that we have 30 million homes in this country, over 90% of which use hydrocarbons to heat themselves. And we also have a whole bunch of commercial and industrial buildings that also use hydrocarbons. To heat themselves. So it's great that we want to decarbonize the grid, but we also need to decarbonize heat. And as I'm sure people have experienced in the last few weeks, we also need to get to grips with cooling, which is another thing that geothermal can help with. So, in terms of gaps, geothermal can be used to use excess heat from cooling centers, take that heat. And put it into thermal, underground, thermal energy storage systems or directly into commercial or private dwellings. It can increase agricultural yields, as is being done in the Netherlands. I I I just actually want to make a point about this because in this country, I don't think as a society, and this isn't a criticism of the government, I don't think as a society we appreciate agriculture enough. Charlotte: I guess. Neil McLoughlin: It's kind of my personal political views. I think that for years the tabloids and the papers portrayed farmers as as fat cats that got a ton of money from the European Union and kind of did really well. And yeah, it is true that there are some farmers that did very, very well, or some rather large agricultural companies that did very, very well from those subsidies. But the vast majority of farmers in this country are honestly are paycheck to paycheck. And the instability in the way they Charlotte: And I. Neil McLoughlin: use the land and the way the climate and the weather can affect them is just it can be horrendous to their crop for that year. And I want to pair up with farmers. We actually had a meeting with the NFU the other day and and they seem to be quite keen on geothermal. And I I think geothermal can can further improve their livelihood and improve agricultural yields. We import, but depending on how you measure it, between 40 and 48% of food into the UK, which were for such an agricultural, fertile Charlotte: All right. Yes. Neil McLoughlin: Island, that's ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous. If you want to import luxury cheeses and and you know luxury food items, fine. But we're importing you know necessary calories that we sh should and can grow in this country. another benefits of geothermal on on on cooling, so it's not not just data center cooling, but also cooling homes, right? I think people we are increasingly in the UK. Charlotte: That's not true. Neil McLoughlin: Going to have heat waves, going to have heat distress. People do die from heat distress if their homes are not adequately cooled. It's critically important to have access to natural bodies of water to cool down, but also to have your home cool enough, to have nursing homes and hospitals cool enough. And geothermal can do that. A great example, AstraZeneca, they built a 2000 plus scientist. Lab in Cambridge, and that is heated and cooled with 174 boreholes. it uses geothermal technology. So it's there, it works, and we should be doing it. And I also want to make the point that it's not just in the the homes of billionaires, it is being used by companies that are profit-making and have a bottom line. And I don't think profit-driven companies would choose a technology. Charlotte: Thank Neil McLoughlin: that is, you know, inadequate or too expensive or or doesn't meet the requirements. So it it it clearly is a viable working technology that can complement the many different aspects of our whether it's, you know, in your home or whether you're developing research for new vaccines. Matt Killeya: That's really interesting. Just to follow up on that as a sort of follow up question on that, I'm just curious in terms of your thoughts of, are we talking about every home, every one of those 30 million homes in the UK installing a sort of ground source heat pump or are we thinking more about networks, heat networks, connecting sort of big heat inputs from deep geothermal or mine water heat? What's your kind of view on what that might look like, that decarbonization? Neil McLoughlin: Great question Charlotte: Thank you. Neil McLoughlin: and fair question. And I think I'd say that that you you're right. The idea that geothermal is going to decarbonize all of those homes is that I mean that's not going to happen. It's not realistic. there's no technology, there's no renewable technology that is appropriate for every single situation. and that that applies just as fair to geothermal. Charlotte: Thank you. Neil McLoughlin: the technical potential for geothermal is is massive. You you can do geothermal anywhere in this country. You can do shallow geothermal anywhere in this country. Realistically, I don't think it's ridiculous to say that by 2050, if policies go well and successive governments realize that geothermal is a winner and does work, and it is being done successfully in other countries, you could have 20% of heat demand being met by geothermal in this country. and and potentially one percent roughly of power. So i it's significant its potential contribution. Matt Killeya: Yeah, so that brings me onto my sort of next question really, really neatly, which is, you know, having identified that sort of 30 million homes and millions more commercial and business properties, that huge heat decarbonisation problem, you touched there on sort of policy stuff. So what do you think are the main policy interventions we need to back geothermal to meet that challenge? Charlotte: Thank you. . Neil McLoughlin: I think the the headline one and the the lowest hanging fruit would be public and explicit support for geothermal from a high-ranking government official, so a minister. whether that's a junior minister at the Secretary of State, or maybe even the PM, if we're ambitious enough. that that is what we want, and I think it's what the sector needs. And to be honest, deserves at this point. You know, the there's a whole plethora of Charlotte: All Neil McLoughlin: renewable technologies that are brilliant and I I I support them all, but some of them require billions in subsidies, like billions and billions in subsidies to even get operational, to even work, to even become commercially viable. Geothermal, Charlotte: right. Neil McLoughlin: you know, in some instances requires a bit of assistance. But after that, it's really clear into the sunset as to its commercial viability. And w we're only asking for a bit of assistance. So so specifically on your policies, That you're asking for. There's two examples that I want to touch on. Actually, there's there's in Germany, in Munich in particular, and I would be lying if I said it was an expert on this, but they've managed to do an agreement with a large insurance provider to backstop the risk for particularly one main project, but a few other projects in that region. Charlotte: and we'll be back. . Neil McLoughlin: in France, the government has developed a sort of traffic light system and said that they would grant a risk insurance backstop for projects depending on its risk of failure in a certain geological area. is it actually working at the moment right now and and are a number of projects using it? No not really if I'm being honest. But but the policy is there and I think once once it takes off it it Could be really valuable. The French government did just publish a geothermal strategy, which was great. So in terms of those high-level policy interventions, that public recognition, a bit of support, risk mitigation, it's really signals to investors and to the public and raising awareness. And I would be reluctant to Charlotte: So. Okay. Okay. Neil McLoughlin: say that we need a bunch of these regulations and we need a bunch of intervention. You know, we gotta be careful about you we we're still a nascent sector and I don't want us over regulated before, you know, we've even left the gate. that could be a disaster. So I I I would be cautious about demanding a bunch policies. You gotta be careful what you wish for. Charlotte: I agree with you and I think that regulation thing is a key point. guess I need to be something in place so that that... investor confidence is secured and they know they will be protected in some form but we have got schemes in the ground that have gone through existing regulation and are operational at commercial scale now. We've got several of those across the UK so I agree with you we don't want to come down too hard on that. Neil McLoughlin: Yes, exactly. Just on that point, I think right now I'm probably talking about deep geothermal as opposed to shallow, but most of the risk, some people tell me 80 to 90 percent of the risk for a project is within the first drilling, within the first borehole. You you you drill that borehole and it's all about you know the flow rate. Charlotte: Yeah. Neil McLoughlin: And the temperature and permeability. And if you can get that right, then you de-risk the project so significantly. And so it's it's just the backstopping of that initial drilling that so many of these deep projects need help with. And once you've cleared that, and of course, remember, if it's successful, which they often are, then there's no insurance needed. So there's no money to be granted. So it it's just worked. And then you can you can give the money back. And it's only if it fails. Charlotte: Yeah. company. Thanks. Neil McLoughlin: which i it can do, but that I don't think that's the majority of a bore you know, if you've done your research and you've you you know you've especially if it's that particular geological area has been de risked by another borehole not too far away, you know that it's probably gonna work. And so I think that that's probably the situation where we are in the UK at the moment. We have a lot of a lot of boreholes being drilled this year, and I think that they are going to de-risk quite a number of sedimentary basins, a number of geological areas so that Charlotte: Thank you. What? Neil McLoughlin: Vasing twenty six could see quite a big pickup because a lot because so much has been de risked. Charlotte: Yeah, and you've, talked there about things that will help attract investment and I think that you're exactly right, you know the investment profile along a geothermal project is changing more or less at every stage and that's something we've been thinking about, you know, who would this be, who would have the appetite for this level of risk and this stage of the project and then carrying on, as you say, I think that first well risk, you know, know, so much more after that is completed. If you've been able to drill it at production scale, if you've done it at pilot scale, you've still got a bit more to know. But do think if there's any other things like some of the other EU countries that have a policy and they've set targets and they've got things like a feed-in tariff, do you think those things would help the UK? Do you think there are viable opportunities for the UK to do those things and adopt those things? Neil McLoughlin: I think you have to figure out what is going to be politically feasible. We're in a world now where, or rather I say we're in a political situation in the UK where I personally think we're we're at the beginning of the end for en masse subsidies. You know, CFD as you know, contracts for difference have been amazing at proliferating renewable energy in this country, particularly offshore wind. And that shouldn't be forgotten and you know, it should be given credit. But we are in a situation where we do pay wind turbines to be turned off, where we get most of that wind power from the north of the country and most of it is consumed in the south of the country or London. I'm not trying to pick on wind. I think it's amazing what's being done. But there are some things that haven't quite happened at the same time and now it it's resulting in potential grid stability issues, Issues with baseload and capacity and dispatchability. That is why we pay those wind turbines to turn off, because if they were to stay on the the grid will overload. So to your question, Charlotte, looking at other European nations, I don't think that Charlotte: Thank you. Thank Neil McLoughlin: Really, any of them right now are in a position where I would look at them and go, that is exactly what we need to do. They're doing an amazing job. They're going help. they're a few years ahead of us, you look at a country like the US where what they're building, you know, there's those massive geothermal projects further and stuff, amazing, but they're not they're not built yet. a huge amount of money has gone into them. Charlotte: you Yeah. Thank Neil McLoughlin: And America is a very different political system. It's good to look at European neighbors, see what they're doing well, but I don't think right now any of them are in a position to emulate perfectly. And I think we need to be looking at them, but also realizing what can we do best for the UK and our political climate and working with across the parties for the most Charlotte: Okay. Neil McLoughlin: politically acceptable regime Charlotte: Yeah, yeah, okay. Matt Killeya: So I want to come back, Neil, to some of the possible policy interventions. So just to come back to regulation, which you touched on. it's probably worth saying that we've had some success in the UK already. We've got the largest mine water heat project up in Gateshead, which has been providing hot water to hundreds of buildings around the centre of Gateshead. Charlotte: Thank you. Thanks. Matt Killeya: We also this year the United Downs geothermal power plant supplying geothermal power to the grid went live. And obviously the Eden project is another well-known example And there are others too at different stages of development. So we have managed to have some successes, but we certainly haven't yet. done it at scale in the UK. And I think one of the common things there is, those projects have taken a long time. And so, appreciate what you said on regulation, not wanting to overregulate too quickly. But on the other hand, these things seem to be falling under disparate pieces of existing regulation. And that generally seems to mean things like planning and permitting. Charlotte: Thank you. . Matt Killeya: are very slow. So, is there anything there that you can see that could really be improved to really speed these things up and therefore make them more viable? Neil McLoughlin: it is true that there are A number of regulations that were not intended for geothermal ever. They were set up for totally different pieces of infrastructure, whether that's oil and gas or whatever it is. But now geothermal is falling into them. And so some geothermal projects have to deal with the MRA, the mining remediation authority, used to be called the Coal Authority, have to deal with the HSE, the I think it's of of a certain depth. I think it's after 500 meters or maybe maybe more, the health service executive. Charlotte: Okay. Thank Neil McLoughlin: They have to deal with the Environment Agency, which sits under DEFRA. if they want certain funding, they have to deal with the Green Heat Network Fund. it can be so vast and and complex I think ultimately we gotta remember Charlotte: Thank you. Neil McLoughlin: A lot of these laws came about in the sixties and seventies and eighties to protect the environment. And because we used to not protect the environment, we used to just run ragged and pollute everywhere and pollute everything. But unfortunately, we live in a world where we have a lot of young people, and a lot of young people require a lot of infrastructure, new houses. And the EA unfortunately is now in a position where it's trying to protect the environment, but it's also blocking quite a few critical Charlotte: Thank Thank you. Okay. Neil McLoughlin: Pieces of infrastructure in this country. And it's not just them, it's also local authorities and councils. And so I don't want to cast them as the enemy, but there are major issues around their timeline. So to your point, Matt, about some of these projects taking forever, I don't want the EA suddenly to regulate geothermal massively. I would just like their existing timelines and protocols to be adjusted and amended to reflect that. Charlotte: of the recommendations. Neil McLoughlin: You know, they say that everything going right, an open loop system should take what is it, two, two years and three months, I think it is. The reality is that everything takes four, four to six years under that regime. And that's that's not viable. That's not viable for investors. And even even when you're dealing with, systems that aren't open loop. Charlotte: Thank Let's see. Thank Neil McLoughlin: There's still issues around water abstraction teams within the local authority and trying to get them and there's only so many resources. And yeah, that there there can be a lot of barriers and and blockers. Charlotte: Thanks. Yeah, I think it's quite a key challenge and obviously we have got regulation that works but could be speeded up and could be joined up because from my experience you're getting licenses from the mining remediation and the environment agency through separate processes and you're submitting a lot of the same information twice so there could be ways you can streamline that And also I think the key thing as well in reusing some of these bits of regulation that were maybe developed for oil and gas and for water, that's fine to some extent but the key difference is that geothermal is generally non-consumptive and they are all extractive industries. So we need to bear that in mind when we're thinking about potential consequences and mitigating those because we're not actually taking stuff away. as we were with some of these other systems. So although I don't want to see a little more regulation either, perhaps some recognition of that fact that it's non-consumptive could make some things a little bit easier if that is considered as part of those. Neil McLoughlin: Yeah. Yeah. I mean and an another point there is that the more regulations you have, the more people require consultants. And then you create all these cottage industries. This is what happened in nuclear. You have all these middle people just skimming off the top of everyone's hard work. And in geothermal, you know, some oil and gas companies get involved with geothermal. They they can take some of these consultancy fees because they have the money. But a lot of geothermal firms in this country don't. They don't have the money. this is this is actually a very good example of where we can look at our european counterparts. We have longer timelines than they do. And those countries are not less safe than we are. They don't have much more polluted waters than we do. In fact, I would guess that our waters in this country are far more polluted than those of our European neighbors who have shorter timelines for geothermal. Charlotte: You Neil McLoughlin: I was swimming in Oxford last week and I I kept my head above the water 'cause it had just been raining. and I know that there's countries in Europe where you would not have to do that. So Charlotte: Yeah, that sounds like a PhD project waiting to happen. Neil McLoughlin: Yes, exactly. Matt Killeya: Thank And that is the reason why I'm here. Charlotte: We've talked a little bit about the high upfront costs for geothermal, particularly with drilling, and you talked about some of the examples in the States and obviously there's been significant investment there in looking at drilling and how that can be speeded up to reduce time on site and thereby costs. Do you have any views on whether that's something we should be doing? I realise a lot of the places, as you said, you we can't... Neil McLoughlin: Yes. Charlotte: make direct comparisons because for example the Forge project, the drilling where there aren't people and we've got a lot more populated areas in the UK. But do think that there is something that we could do on the drilling side, particularly if you're going to employ drilling expertise from the oil and gas sector which are used to dealing with a product that's worth many more cents per barrel than a barrel of hot water for example. How do we get over that gap? Neil McLoughlin: So there's a few things there. we actually have some of the best drilling expertise in the world in this country, and that is because of our history in the North Sea. And as that has been wound down, and as we have put most of our eggs in one basket on renewables, we have lost some of those expertise and that supply chain has been has really deteriorated. And it means that when we want to drill a borehole of deeper than 500 meters or a thousand meters or whatever it is, we have like two rigs in this country and they're owned by one company. And if we want more than that or a different type of rig, we have to rent it from Europe. Bearing in mind, those two of those rigs, one of them also might be rented by someone in Europe. So that that's a supply chain issue. I if we had geothermal boreholes being drilled all of the time, consistently every week in the year, then if then people would see that and go, right, this country needs a consistent supply chain. Right. Well, it needs its own rigs, so let's have its own rigs, constantly feeding that. And that combined with, as you mentioned, in in the the US, innovations that they've already that have already happened, they've already brought, they've they've Charlotte: question. Neil McLoughlin: innovated in drill bits and they've already brought the pricing and the duration of the drill down significantly, which is often the yeah, the biggest cost initially for a geothermal project. You combine those two things and you can significantly reduce the upfront capex for a geothermal project. Charlotte: Thank you All right. Neil McLoughlin: We we talk about geothermal and compare it to other technologies and talk about the cost and it it does come across as a slightly more expensive renewable. Again, it is a baseload. so it it can provide its energy 24-7 for decades, but and yet it's still compared to solar and wind, which you know are are non-baseload and they're intermittent. But when you compare it to nuclear, another base load, it fares much better. So Charlotte: Thanks. you Neil McLoughlin: Imagine if we had those innovations, it would fare even better than that. Matt Killeya: that's really interesting. I want to talk about something else. So you mentioned earlier about the need for a message or a signal from the top of government, from a minister or maybe even the prime minister. I'm not sure if the prime minister is a listener to this podcast, but if he is then. Charlotte: So. Neil McLoughlin: I think he's I think he's a bit busy at the moment, to be honest. I think I think he's yeah, yeah. Matt Killeya: But I'm curious, more broadly, you obviously spend a lot of time engaging ministers and MPs. So I think our listeners will be interested to just know a bit about how does that work? How do you go about that? What's difficult about it? And also, do you have any top tips for people looking to engage ministers and MPs? Charlotte: Thanks. Thank . Neil McLoughlin: So I I think I don't want to give my trade secrets away. No. I I what I'd say is that so much of my role, my job, and and the the type of job that that this is is relationship building, is networking, is making those connections, is getting a good relationship with the minister's private office, is getting them to trust you. You know, you're not you don't ask them a billion things all the time or you ask them to come to Charlotte: it. Sorry. . Neil McLoughlin: frivolous events they don't need to be at. But you convince them to come to that that first event and they go, or second event, they go, wow, that that's that was actually really great. And a really good use of the minister's precious time. We know that the next time they ask us to come to something, it's going to be worth it. And so you develop that rapport. I you know I know sectors and companies and colleagues that won't get any response. Charlotte: process. Neil McLoughlin: From a minister's private office. a minister and a few MPs. There are other MPs and ministers that don't even respond to anything I say. sometimes that's all you need. You just need that core group that can get you that access further into Whitehall, et cetera. Charlotte: And think that's really good advice for the engaging with ministers. And I think there's also something we can do as individuals. We all have an MP. I've been very fortunate in the area I live, which when I was working on mine water heat, I live in a mining area and both my current MP, which is Sam Rushworth, and my former MP Helen Goodman, very passionate about the subject. but that was because we wrote to them and engaged them and I wrote to them as a constituent initially and that's something everybody can do regardless of what they're doing but particularly if they are interested in geothermal write to your MP find out what they're doing ask them are they engaging with Neil at the REA because he's got this great APPG group you know are you are you going to go really going to ask the National Geothermal Centre what are you doing so Neil McLoughlin: And Charlotte: write letters to your MPs I think is quite a good way in my personal experience of a thing we can all be doing as well. Neil McLoughlin: I completely agree with that. I think people totally underestimate the power of writing an i a letter to your MP. And people don't realise that if the government does something and a critical mass of constituents write to their MP about that issue, it will trigger potentially a rebellion on a certain vote or on a certain issue. And and and people don't realize that that but that is that is a genuine feedback loop that works in our democracy and and I think we should all take more advantage. Charlotte: Well, thanks for sharing your secrets on that one. Neil McLoughlin: I should also say on that point, I should recognise Minister Whitehead, Alan Whitehead, and his office, his private office, have been amazing, have been such champions of geothermal, have given us a huge amount of their time. And we we only had a round table, Charlotte, that you attended yesterday with Minister Whitehead in Quantum Solutions offices Matt Killeya: you. Charlotte: Yeah. numbers. Thanks. Neil McLoughlin: hitherto in geothermal, this might be a bit controversial to say, I think we have been very focused in our conversations on. what we demand from the government and very focused on deep geothermal. And we do not talk enough about the other flavors of geothermal, the benefits geothermal can provide to society that I talked at the top of the podcast, and actually trying to be solutions-oriented and trying to give the minister information that he can then use and go back with to Desnes and Whitehall and convince his colleagues Charlotte: Yeah. Thank Yeah. Neil McLoughlin: There's this idea that ministers, whatever they say, happens, but but they, especially junior ones, they have to convince their civil servants that work with them to build a case to then go to the Secretary of State and say, this is a really important issue. We we have to put it back on the agenda, or we need to reprioritize it in the spending review. And we have to help the minister in that regard. So people, I think, they approach Charlotte: . Yeah. Neil McLoughlin: MPs and ministers as if it's a Dragon's Den situation, just like pleading for help and whatever. we need to give them ammunition to go and fight for our case in in Whitehall. Charlotte: Yeah. So yeah. Matt Killeya: totally agree. And I think the appointment of Alan Whitehead is important, isn't it, politically, because as Minister of State for Energy Security and Net Zero, he's the first minister we've had who has direct responsibility for geothermal. So that does seem like a big step forward for the geothermal sector politically. Charlotte: Any. Yeah. Neil McLoughlin: Absolutely. And and you know, before he gave up his seat in in two thousand twenty-four, from nineteen ninety-seven he was the MP of Southampton, and that is where the first deep geothermal heat project existed in in the country, set up in the in the nineteen eighties. so he he he's always been a a massive champion and it really cares about quite a a range of renewable issues. Charlotte: Thank you. And in terms of some of the wider benefits, In previous episodes we've talked about the decline of the oil and gas sector and the potential there for job transition. What are your thoughts on that? Neil McLoughlin: You know, it's funny, I was talking to someone yesterday. they run a geothermal startup, the founder of a geothermal startup. And they used to work in the oil and gas sector, as so many people in geothermal did. And they used to work in Aberdeen, right? The the sort of oil and gas capital of of the UK. And you know, they said that you know, a few few years ago. Charlotte: you Neil McLoughlin: The high street in Aberdeen had luxury brands, and it was often the the the spouses, whether they be men or women, of the people working for those oil oil companies. they'd be shopping on the street and with their friends, and it would be this really sort of bourgeois view and scene. And now apparently that high street is just dead. just hearing her show this difference in time in Aberdeen and and what the deprioritization of oil and gas in this country has done to to the city is is it was quite stark and I think it really hit me and and it struck a chord. And one of her main motivations Charlotte: Thank . Neil McLoughlin: is to get geothermal back on the map to help cities like Aberdeen. And it's important that things move on and industry changes. But I think it has happened so quickly. It has happened To a city that to be honest is being left behind. I d I think it's a bit tokenistic to headquarter GB Energy there. I it's great, and I think GB Energy is great, but I don't think that's enough to help, Aberdeen get through this transition. And the fact is is that we have thousands and thousands of highly skilled people who used to work in oil and gas. And they should be working in geothermal if they want to, of course, they should have that opportunity given them. These are hardworking people who care deeply and are prideful about the UK, about Scotland, about Aberdeen, and not to mention the resources that Scotland has given to the rest of the United Kingdom from its, hydrocarbon acids. and we we so I think we owe it to them. to to give this technology back to those communities. touching on on mine water earlier, right? All those abandoned mines that are now flooded because of the the water table filling them. A lot of those communities decimated by by previous government, I'll just say it, by Thatcher's interventions. And and again, I don't want to, you know, coal mining is a I would not want my children to be in a coal mine, right? I think it is genuinely Matt Killeya: to this community. Charlotte: All right. Neil McLoughlin: Quite a hectic job. It caused a lot of black lung and cancer. I don't hark back to the days when we had loads of coal jobs, but we should have had a transition for those communities and we didn't. And I think that's an injustice that in part it will, you know, geothermal will not do it, but in part converting those old abandoned mines to provide heat to those communities and and have jobs. for those communities, for those conversions, I think it is is a part that geothermal can play in that transition. Charlotte: Yeah, and that same opportunity exists for the oil and gas sector, doesn't it? not, you know, to manage that transition and the rate of increase of geothermal that we would like to see through the targets that NGC has set. Neil McLoughlin: Yeah, exactly. Charlotte: does align quite well with the rate of decline of UK oil and gas. So there's potential there too, and we talked about it more in the last episode, but for those people, rather than lose those skills and experience that they have to outside the UK, there's definitely an opportunity there. Matt Killeya: Yeah, and widening that out to the mine water heat and the old mining communities. there is a really powerful narrative there, isn't there, about, this of resource that once again they find beneath their feet. This time it's heated water and the potential, to create jobs to extract that water to provide, reduced heating costs and potentially something that could help catalyze growth in those areas through cheap energy. So, I mean, presumably these are the kind of things that are very appealing to the ears of MPs and ministers. And I'm just kind of curious, what of all the things we've discussed today, what is your way in? What do you think that they're most interested in? jobs we've talked about a lot and in my experience, MPs are very, very focused on creating jobs. But on the other hand, they can be quite skeptical when you start to talk about the number of potential jobs, you know, do they really believe those numbers? So I'm just curious, across everything we've discussed, what do you think is the sort of place that MPs are most receptive to Neil McLoughlin: I think that's a great point. I think on on the issue of jobs, I think a lot of sectors and industries and companies promise a lot of jobs all the time. And some deliver and some don't deliver at all, or don't deliver to the degree that that they promised. not to mention companies that, to to protect their bottom line end up exiting an area or a market and and retrenching a ton of people. So Charlotte: Thank you. Neil McLoughlin: I understand why MPs are distrustful of certain promises and and figures thrown around. At a constituency level, Charlotte: Thank you. Thank you. Neil McLoughlin: It is about jobs. It is about communities that experience poverty, particularly fuel poverty. There is a a total desire to get these communities on board with heat networks that provide cheap heat to them and and could be potentially be subsidized by the accommodation of the national government, middle class individuals who can afford it. Charlotte: All right. Neil McLoughlin: and local councils and have that combination maybe subsidying more low-income people on that heat network. I think it's important to raise that fuel poverty is is a serious issue in this country, particularly the more northern you go and the colder it is. And children growing up in mold or damp is is is a serious issue and it it can be it can be deadly in a small number of cases or at least cause Charlotte: always. Yes. Neil McLoughlin: health issues which can have impacts upon their education, their attendance at school, their ability to to see friends and psychologically have a good life. On revitalizing infrastructure within a community. Sam Rushworth, Charlotte, you mentioned earlier, and I'm sure it's all right that I say this. He is very, very keen to get a local swimming pool being heated with geothermal. as someone myself who who swims once, twice a week I swim in London Fields Lido, which is which is heated. Unfortunately, pretty sure it's not heated by geothermal. To have access to a public swimming pool not just exercise, but just for leisure, just to cool down and see friends and you know attend something like that, especially for a community that is low income, to learn how to swim. You know, another very important thing for youths to be able to do things and you know make them less susceptible to getting involved, gangs. Whatever it is, I think just the potential domino effects of co-benefits could be amazing. So that's that's constituency level. I think on a national level, I think I did touch. Charlotte: will come. Neil McLoughlin: On a lot of those points earlier on about, you know, helping farmers and cascading heat for agricultural yields and and data center cooling and overall heating and cooling for the for the country and an element of power. I think switching just to internationally for a second, as a a byproduct of deep geothermal, it seems that that brine Charlotte: right. Bye. Neil McLoughlin: Comes up from the earth. And that brine contains lithium carbonate, right? A critical mineral that can be used in car batteries. Now, are we ever going to be in a position where the UK is producing 100% of its demand for lithium? Probably not. But even just increasing it a bit, it means that when you're relying on your imports from China and from countries in South America, if suddenly China puts up that That trade barrier, as invariably they probably will at some point on rare earth minerals, as they just did recently, then you're not just reliant, you can turn to your supply from South America, but also your own domestic supply. And when it comes to the actual infrastructure, according to Lieutenant General Richard Nugi, who's a retired general at the he was at the MOD and has a personal interest both in climate adaptation, mitigation, but also in geothermal. Geothermal is far more resilient to cyber threats. And it is also resilient. I mean, if you just think about this logically, so most of geothermal is underground. So if you're talking about, and you know, God forbid this ever happens on UK soil, but I think you should always be prepared. There's a reason why we build massive concrete protection barriers over the spent nuclear fuel pools, and that is actually they're reinforced for a jet aircraft to hit them. Charlotte: Okay. . Matt Killeya: soil, but I think you... Charlotte: Okay. Neil McLoughlin: And so we we should be thinking about these things. And and should a drone from whomever hit a piece of critical geothermal infrastructure heating thousands of homes, it's far less likely to be critically damaged and much more easily to repair. Charlotte: and just thinking about those reflections on what's happened in the past and thinking about what could happen in the future if we were to look ahead to maybe say 10 years time or even to 2050. What do you think in terms of quantifying the potential of geothermal in the UK? What would you hope to see within the next 10 to 20 years? Neil McLoughlin: I was on a I was on a panel at the beginning of the year and I I said I'd want to see my my swimming pool heated. and I'd add to that probably a personal sauna in in my garden. I'm not even joking. I think if I did have the money, I I would I think I'd do that. But I don't think I will have the money. what what would I want to see in the UK in 10 years' time? I hope that we will have been seven, eight years post public forceful. Matt Killeya: Thank you. Neil McLoughlin: ministerial governmental recognition and support for geothermal. I hope that we will be a number of years post a real gargantuan effort from Whitehall to establish geothermal as a winner. That this is actually a a point I want to make. I can't claim this idea is mine. I I got it from a book called Abundance by Ezra Klein and Derek Thompson. And it was dispelling this myth that that the government shouldn't pick winners and we should be tech agnostic. And I just don't, I just don't agree with that. I mean it sounds great in principle, and I agree with it in principle, but the reality is that governments always pick winners, and that is actually their nature. They're democratically, well, in this country, they're democratically elected. We trust that they are understanding enough of the issues to to make the right decisions. They don't always, but sometimes they do. And actually, they have picked wind. Charlotte: Yeah. Neil McLoughlin: And solar and nuclear and etc. as winners. And I just want them, and we want them to choose geothermal as one of those winners because it is a winner. It is a winning technology. It's winning around the world. As it sounds very Trumpian the way I'm going on, but it is winning around the world. And it it can do so much for this country. So I I I want the government to more explicitly, just realize its potential, realize it works. In terms of Charlotte: Okay. Neil McLoughlin: ten years time and and where we are along, I I'd love to see thousands of heat networks and shallow systems and deep systems being built and a bunch of hospitals and university campuses and large buildings being heated and cooled with geothermal. yeah, I I I think that would be that would be my vision for a few years' time. And in ten years time, this is maybe a bit ambitious, I would love to see I'd love to be Charlotte: See. Neil McLoughlin: Watching the news one day, Channel 4 News, I sometimes watch it with my parents when I visit them. And I'd love one of the presenters to come on and say, our importing of LNG from Qatar and of gas from Norway has decreased this much just as a result of geothermal. and it has saved the taxpayer this much money and it's made us this much less susceptible. Charlotte: Yes. Yeah. Neil McLoughlin: to this current energy shock because we're going to keep experiencing energy shocks and as long as we're connected to hydrocarbons that we're importing internationally, it it's just gonna keep happening. Charlotte: as the Minister mentioned in the meeting we were out recently, we want geothermal to be the weapon of choice. think that's how we've created it, which I thought is something we could definitely take forward. Neil McLoughlin: Yes. Absolutely, absolutely. Matt Killeya: Yeah, I think that's a very persuasive vision, Neil. So look, thank you. We're coming to the end of our podcast now. So I just want to really thank you for a fascinating conversation. It's been great to hear all your enthusiasm for geothermal, but also to talk through obviously some of the gnarly points and kind of get our heads around a little bit more what's missing in the policy space and the kind of measures that could be taken. to really make this happen. So that's great. So thank you so much, Neil, for joining us. Charlotte: Thanks, Neil. Neil McLoughlin: I thank you, Matt and Charlotte. And I don't think I've heard the word gnarly since growing up in Cape Town and at surfing around the place. But yeah, it's been such a pleasure. Thank you. Matt Killeya: so we are at the end of another episode of Strictly Geothermal, our fourth episode. That was really great to talk to Neil today and understand a bit more about how policy can be affected through engaging with MPs and ministers, and also talking about the kind of policy that we might want to see in geothermal in terms of things like incentives and risk mitigation and so on. So... Charlotte: Thank Thank you. Matt Killeya: Thank you everyone for listening, really appreciate that. I'm Matthew Killier. Charlotte: And I'm Charlotte Adams. Thank you very much for listening and we look forward to speaking to you next time.