Isabella Rigg: is so It's niche. Hello and welcome to That's Niche, the podcast celebrating people's niche obsessions and specialty subjects hosted by me, Isabella Rigg. This week we're joined by Caroline van Sprun, who is an expert at finding beauty in the mundane ebbs and flows of life. Caroline spent part of her childhood on a sheep farm in Germany and has since made a home for herself in cities all across Europe. But she's never lost that connection with nature and the small joys of life. Today, she co-hosts a club slash dining series called Modern Readers and Eaters and is the founder and maker behind the jewelry brand Karma, where she turns everyday items into heirloom worthy pieces. Caroline, welcome to That's Niche. Thank you. Wow, that was a fabulous introduction. It was a tongue twister in part. No, but you know when you see yourself from a little distance. Yeah. Yeah, you just did that for me. Thank you. ⁓ good. I'm happy to help. ⁓ We'll start with the question we ask everyone. If everyone has a niche, what's yours? Mine is to romanticize life and create little scenes. And I think you do that in all of your different professional facets, but it's nice to see it intertwine into your personal too. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. It's interesting because I never really realized that I was doing that, but then it started giving me a lot of comfort and my friend said something about it, but I think We're gonna get into that. We're gonna get into it. Would you like to give the listeners a brief explainer about what romanticizing life and creating a scene means to you? Definitely. For me, it means making something special out of the little moments. So for instance, when I'm having breakfast by myself, I could just put a little bit of laze on the table and make like a nice plate for myself and put some music on. And it makes me feel very different. It's like the normal little things. Or in the evening, I like to put a candle on for myself. Just like, read a book with nice music. And it's just an extra little act. And then it feels way more special. Has it become second nature to you now? Well, I think almost like first nature. Yeah. It's just your older pilots, how you all pray. Yeah. I went on a picnic with my siblings in the summer. And I brought all of these little props and things. And they were like, are you putting up a restaurant here? We're just going to the park. So it's not a familial trait. It's just a special something in you. I have to say they have a different mother. Okay. my mother might play a role in this. Because you do have a long line of strong women asphites in your family. You know, your great grandmother being a jewelry maker. It's there's obviously this care that's being passed down generation to generation. your matriarchal line? think so. She had a jewelry shop. So the way I understood it from my mother, she wasn't actually making the jewelry. But she had the shop and she made it look fantastic. And she was open on Sundays, which was really special because shops used to be closed back in the days on Sundays. So she was really strong and she was very sales driven, I think. ⁓ good for her. It's not just finding beauty, it's also finding the cash. Very important. Yeah, that's great. So you've broken your niche up into three key categories. So what are they? One, a broad imagination and feeling that need to be surrounded by beauty. Because for one person it's stronger than for the other. The second is props. Very important. And the third one is people to enjoy it with. It's beautiful. Or yourself to enjoy it with. Yeah. But people, know, kind of important. They make the space. Yeah. I was lucky enough to be hosted by you in your beautiful home for one of your modern readers and eaters events. And it's very clear how well-trained your eye is to creating beautiful spaces. And there were two things that really stood out to me in that event. The first, you were talking about how you much prefer things to be beautiful than practical, which was evident when you pulled out your toaster oven from underneath your bed. I was like, this is. Carrie Bradshaw walks among us. It was perfect. And the second was kind of what launched this whole interview. You're like, I can't believe people go through life not noticing beauty. Like if you just look around you, if you're tuned into what's going on, everything's amazing. And I was like, ⁓ that's someone that really has a different frame of reference and looks at the world very differently. And so they were the two things that I took away from that night. Yeah. Just to respond to the latter one, really seeing what is around you and the beauty, I think it has given me a lot of comfort in life. I'm prone to negative thoughts and anxiety and stuff like that. And the one thing that I always found comfort in is beauty. then I mean, music and colors, nature, but not so much as human creations. Because if I think and if I see what people can create, That just really draws me in. ⁓ someone thought of this. Yeah, well. I just can think of the other person instead of wallowing my own self pity. It takes you out of it a little It takes me out of it, yeah. Thank God, finally leaving my own head. Yeah. Well, I mean, your first point is about having a broad imagination and wanting to be surrounded by beauty. Do you think it is the care that somebody's put into it, the work, or do you think it's more the outcome that you're attracted to? I think it's a combination. thinking of... You know, some people put, if you think of like big music pieces, you know, people put a lot of time and effort into that. So my great-grandfather, he was a watchmaker. ⁓ wow. It does. You do come from a long line of beauty seekers. Yeah, beauty seekers for sure. He spent 25 years working on the same piece. It's a huge amount of time and people do that. And so, you know, the imagination is, I think that comes then from the person also enjoying it. that you can feel and see what someone's trying to do and wanting to be surrounded by beauty. If you see the beauty, I think you want more of it. That's kind of what I'm thinking. And to respond to that oven situation, I thought it was so chic. This beautiful princess in the pee bed, was so, you know, draped in gorgeous crisp linen and then underneath a very dirty little oven. I was thinking, because I'm having a, I'm hosting an event on Saturday and I don't have, how do you call that where you put your coats? A coat rack. A coat rack. I don't have a coat rack. And I was thinking, should I order one? Should I get one? Yeah, but then it will be like standing around the other six days when the one's over. Do I want that? No, no, I don't want it. No, I just put, you know, people can just put their coat on my bed or something. I don't know. I have to think about that. Yeah. Beauty over function. Yes. This idea of imagination, I imagine you look at things and think, ⁓ I can turn that into something else or, you know, everything has split functions. Did your mom instill that in you? Is her home adorned in a similar way to yours? My mother is way more practical than me. Yeah. I have to admit that. I think seeing the potential in a place that is something. I have trained by moving a lot. I moved, think, seven times in two years. And so every time I had to make something of that space. And the space where I live now, for example, I've waited a year to move in there. So every night in my bed, I would just think of how I was gonna make most of it. And like training that. And then also Pinterest, I mean, it's very normal things. I go on Pinterest all the time. He was my imagination. You know, my dreams. How would you suggest people train? that muscle, maybe the training them muscle for imagination or even just tuning their eye into beauty. ⁓ I think ask a lot of questions. If you talk to people and if you visit new spaces and if you listen to new kind of music and, you know, pay attention to what someone else is doing. I think that's where I learned most from. You know, I would go into people's houses and I'm very impressed if people have like small objects that they took from a holiday or something like that, because I'm not like that. No. No, I don't really take stuff from a holiday because I'm like, I travel really light. But it's something that I see that I love and then I think, I want that too. ⁓ this is how you do it. Okay, this is what you put in your kitchen. So just take away small things from other people. So you're not going to have a fridge full of novelty magnets? No, I will not. But you can appreciate mine, can't you? Very much. No, I can. Yeah. Okay. Interesting. So it's, there's a lot of things that you can take inspiration from, but not necessarily implement in your life. ⁓ yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I can do that in a different way, you know? Yeah. It's always sparking something. Yeah. It's brilliant. You said you mentioned Pinterest, but is there someone you turn to for a constant source of inspiration or something you put on to kind of spark new thoughts? I have a friend, Sophie, she's a filmmaker. I love the woman. She's always a source of inspiration for me because she's very present. You know, when you talk to her, she leaves her phone out. She doesn't even have social media anymore. And she's really there with me. And so when I talk to her, have, because of our conversation, I have new experiences. She has a lovely home. She lives on the Heerachracht. Absolutely beautiful. She has these little small objects. She has like this sculpture next to her bed of like an old lady looking away. It was very impressive. ⁓ there you go. There I go. So you've got your eye out for a sculpture. Yes. ⁓ that's beautiful. I like that the person that gives you the most inspiration is someone that's quite close to you. It's not this kind of fantasy designer or... No, not really. Well, I do. I also have a friend who has an Airbnb in Ancissile, in Ancissile, and he's very, you know, very colorful and... sky's the limit kind of situation. And that also inspires me a lot. Then it's less the conversations and more the eye. Like, ⁓ wow, I can be colorful. I don't have to be beige. I don't think you're beige. No, I'm not beige, but it's sometimes, you know, there's so much beige out there, which is a hundred percent fine. Just not for me. Yeah. Yeah. I think that segues quite nicely into your second point, your focus on props and then in brackets you've written nice things, ⁓ music. ⁓ I love props. So my mother and I, used to go secondhand shopping quite a lot in these small shops, markets, you know, in Germany. I have this chandelier of her, which she bought for, I think, what was it called back then? The German Mach? Mach? In Germany, like on an East German market. And I love it. I put it in my home now. And I have like these lace things for my grandmother and her. silverware and mirrors and props do really set a scene. I have this fake pearl necklace and I just put it on the table. I just drape it for fun. It just does something. I love that. So props are really important. Were you the kind of kid that would move your room around constantly? Every five minutes. Yeah. Yeah. attacking things to the roof and... You my mother was very particular about the walls. Okay. So don't make any stains on the walls. Got it. But everything inside the walls. Yeah. It's like moving around and then I want it like this and... Yeah. Atmosphere does a lot. And it determines also the way you move in a space, right? When I feel surrounded by beauty, I'm not a dancer, I have to say, but when I'm by myself, I dance quite a lot. It just, you know, it changes it. And then for example, if you go on a picnic, I like to take my pepper and salt. How do call this? Yeah, the grinder. The grinders. Exactly. I was doing that. Yeah, a very phallic movement. A different kind of prop, maybe. Yeah. Well, that's also a prop. And then music does a lot too. Yeah. I'm a big fan of Fivaldi, which is very like, it's magical. Yeah. were talking about the classic music is a world that feels very foreign to me. But my dad has come to it later in life and that's all he listens to on the way to and from work. It's almost like he has this funny meditative moment where he really locks in and gets himself in the right headspace. So I feel like it's been interesting to see him fall in love with it and kind of given me a different appreciation for it. you know what he listens to? Not at all. I think he just pops the classical radio on and Love it. And gets taken away. But you mentioned Vivaldi. Are there others that you listen to to set different moods? ⁓ yeah. When I'm feeling a bit heavy, I listen to the Contostinato, which is like a couple of pianos and they play the same rhythm all, like all the time for two hours, almost two hours. And I love that one. Yeah. A bit of a like a mental flow state because it's repetitive. Very repetitive. Very mental flow state. Yeah. And there's like, I also Like Bach is a bit more heavy. My mother always says, you know, little angels, they play with Mozart and when they have to work, they put on Bach. Okay. I like that. So classical music came from her. She's had it, got an appreciation for it. Oh, God. Like I would come downstairs in the morning at eight. Okay. And she would be on our computer with classical music on and she would be taking like the crazy lady. I don't know what she was doing. I despise her for that. But you know. Later on in life. Well, it's yeah, you've gone full circle. It's funny how it works like that. On Wednesdays, you can go for free to the luncheos soup in Amsterdam, but also in Berlin. I saw you can do the same thing. ⁓ okay. Yeah, it's like a thing, I think. I still haven't done that. That sounds like such a beautiful way to spend a day. We should go. ⁓ there we go. What a way to romanticize a Wednesday. Definitely. And then we have lunch at this Italian place around the corner afterwards. ⁓ fam. Okay, great. It's a date. Are there props in your world that you kind of couldn't do life without, whether they're practical or wildly impractical, like the pearls? Like the? Like the pearls. ⁓ yeah, the pearls. Well, I think lace on the table. Yep. I couldn't do without lace. Couldn't do without candles. Well, when I think when it comes to romanticizing life, it's also about time and presence, right? And care. And so I have this pen that requires a lot of love and care. Yeah. I don't know what you call it in English, but I think it's like the stainless steel and you can't wash it with soap and you can't, you know, can't put tomato or anything sour in it because then you get off the layer that you just... ⁓ cast iron. Exactly. And I think I couldn't do a life without that pan. What's romanticizing to me about it is the amount of time that I spent into this thing. Yeah. And when you've... use it for the first time, you have to put a lot of sunflower oil into it. And so my house was smelling like a fry place for three days. That is quite practical. Yeah. But it shows that attention and love, which I think is a big part of romanticizing your life. Because you're taking that extra step for something. And I have my friends come over, they're like, why don't you just buy like the ZQia pan? Yeah. You know, is that extra? Yeah, I couldn't do a life without that pan. Is it something I wonder when you use it? Are you reminded of the effort you put into it? Is it a constant reminder of that attention? Yeah. And then it also requires you to have less things. Yeah, and do almost everything in that pan, just the tomatoes. There you go. Do you rush? Are you prone to running late? ⁓ all the time. I was late this morning, wasn't I? ⁓ by 10 minutes. But was sending my sister this morning a reel of Kate Moss saying, An interviewer asked her, are you punctual? And she was like, no, I late. Yeah. Okay. But I do find different cultures have different approaches to being late and punctuality. And I think there's a really different relationship. 10 minutes to me is a big deal. Okay. If you're 10 minutes with a German person, they're going to think you don't respect. I did think. Yeah. I was like, okay, this is a beautiful sign of German respect. Yeah. No, is. But I'm just really, I get really slow and then I'm like, whoa, where did that hour go? I did absolutely nothing. Just like walk around in my tiny apartment. One of my girlfriends, Shannon, she is someone that I definitely see as she romanticizes life. She creates moments of luxury in her day, I feel, in that she will be getting ready for an event and she'll give herself at least an hour and a half, two hours to fully prep. and she has a playlist. And when we were younger, she even had timers for parts of her routine. So it would be 10 minutes for skin prep and then a timer would go off and she'd move on to 25 minutes for makeup. And I just, in my head, I'm like, God, that's someone that's got it all together. Whereas I'm very, I move very quickly and very haphazardly. So, but I also think it's different mindsets too. romanticize life in different ways. think so too. I'm very chaotic too. Yeah, okay. Like I couldn't set a timer. Yeah. It's interesting that you say you're chaotic when you create these vignettes of calm, know, lace and pearls and, you know, beautiful china. Okay. It's a, it's an antidote. Yes. Yes. Maybe. Yes. I also go through phases because sometimes the bottom of my back is just, you know, horrible. And sometimes the bottom of my back is... extremely clean. So I think it moves. Romanticizing life to me, think it's more in the scenes than in the head state. Yeah. Okay. What's it what it looks like on the outside as a, yeah, interesting. Interesting. know, managing what it looks like on the outside. Okay. Got it. She says as a jewelry maker. And your third point, the people to enjoy these scenes with. What does that mean to you? This one's really important because, you know, the examples I gave in the introductions were by myself and I'm very comfortable by myself. But I also realized that, you know, you enjoy life together. And I once had a friend tell me, she said, when I'm with you, it feels like I'm in a movie. I didn't realize that myself. I thought it was really cute that she said that. But that's what happens if you're in connection to people, right? And if you have that scene. Let's say you have this beautiful table setting, you've got the music on, it's warm, you know, the oven on the floor is up and running. And it's like, in that moment, you can enjoy it together. And I think that's also where I would like to put a critical note of creating a scene and romanticizing your life, is that when you're so output-oriented, like it has to look a certain way. I've hosted many dinners like that. As a host, as the person creating the scene, it's very easy to not be present and be like, okay, are my pearls on right? Is the cloth still clean? And so I think people can then help you to really be present in that moment and not just running around making sure everything is looking perfect. Yeah, you really have to take yourself out of your head space. Yes, yeah. For me, it's very easy to go into my head and just be very controlling about it all. That's really the downside of know, setting that scene and making it all look a certain way. And it's interesting that you host so much and you have so much unknown, you know, a big part of the modern readers and eaters is that they're strangers. and it was in your home and it was a bunch of girls that didn't know each other and the kind of central theme was reading a book and sharing a meal. But there are so many variables there that you really can't control. It's almost ironic that you seek out those kinds of reckless moments. And I guess that must challenge you in a way. Yeah, you were there as a guest. Was that something, did you see me struggle with that? In a way. No, no, I didn't. But it's interesting that you bringing it up now. I can imagine if you're kind of focused on creating a beautiful moment and then all of a sudden a whirlwind of new personalities and people and interactions. Yeah. It would take you a minute to let go of that control. A hundred percent. Yeah. I wonder, do you have any tricks when you're in that moving from that moment? Do you have to kind of take a few deep breaths or? Sometimes I do. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Growing up, my parents were kind of, especially my mom loved the woman, no bashing at all, but she was very strict with, this is how you treat this material. I would like say the wooden floor or the walls or the silver cutlery. And sometimes I found things very limiting in a way. And so I try not to be like that. But when you really care about things, for example, I bought this handmade wool rock from the floor. I don't want people to be on there with their shoes. so like letting that kind of things go, that allows me to then also enjoy the evening. Being aware of the consequences when I am being controlling, AKA being like my mom. You know, that really helps me too. Cause I don't want that. Yeah. But it happens naturally if you care about something. Yeah, absolutely. And so it's that fine balance between caring and over controlling and obsessing. Yeah. mean, it's like, totally. Totally. It's lovely to care that there is a byproduct of caring and that is caring too much. You've always kind of got to bring it back. But I imagine when you do settle into it and you do get to share those moments, it must all be worth it when you've got the right people around you. 100%. And do you find the scenes that you're setting and the beauty you're creating, it must be a conversation starter as well. must show people that you've taken the time to. want to host them and want to create a beautiful environment. So it almost must be disarming in a way. Yeah. I think it also depends on the people you have at your table or half at that scene. You know, some people really appreciate it and see it. Where are them my people? And then, you know, others are not really aware of it. And so you also see what someone appreciates. You know, if you are, if you're hosting something where food is also involved. Some people will go 100 % into the food and others will go more into the conversation and the surroundings. Yeah. And you really see that. And that's fantastic, right? That what makes a person themselves. So it's really interesting to see as well. Yeah, everybody takes a different route in. Exactly. I also think that's quite nice in thinking that not every single element can be the star of the show. Like it could be the vibe that you're creating. It could be what it looks like aesthetically and how it tastes. Like all three of those components could be dialed up and dialed down. Is there an event that sticks out in your mind as your favorite event that you went to or attended? So my friend did a moving away party at a big Heerengracht pond, you know, on the canals. Very old and chic, a lot of marble. It's called the mirror room. ⁓ With a view on the garden and huge windows and very old and antique. Was there probably 20 people in there? It was fantastic. Wow, she hired the space. She knows the person living there. Fab. Yeah. Yeah, those houses are amazing. Yeah, that was really, really beautiful. And what was it that made it so special? Just the atmosphere. It was insane in the candlelight. It was in winter. No, it was not in winter, but it was in the evening, so it was dark. That was just very magical. What I came to realize is that on events like that, during events like that, people don't really care about the food too much. Scene, yes, but they mostly care about the connection. They man with another human being. So if we are able to create a scene during any kind of event that invites that connection, think of table setting. Well, like, where do you place people in the room? Where do you put the food? How will they be eating it? Is there like a funny way of eating something? Can you do it with your hands or can you make, people open oysters? All of that is also, you know, part of creating that scene. And then the beauty is the connection that people have. And so as I'm getting older, I'm trying to dive more into that. And I love the pearls, don't get me wrong. I love the music. I love all of that, but I do... more more more see that it's more about the way people can interact during one of those scenes. Yeah. Are there any shortcuts for conversation that you use? If you want to disarm people, you want to spark on that spur on that connection. ⁓ yeah, ask them for examples. You know, and not ask them for their favorite dish, you know, because if you ask someone for their favorite thing, they're like, Yeah, I don't know what to pick. But it was like, ⁓ can you give me an example where you had this amazing fish? And then, you know, they're going to tell you about their trip to Italy that they took with their partner and like, ⁓ you have a partner. What's like, what's your partner like? Or, you know, it's like you go more naturally. Yeah. And just make people feel comfortable. Yeah. I used to be very good at making people feel very uncomfortable. You don't get anywhere with that. No, that used to be a special skill of yours. Yeah. Horrible. So rude. I'm glad you feel like you've turned a corner or I'm glad you have turned a corner. I'm glad I've met the you today. That's so funny. Yeah. I think you're right about asking people their absolute favorite. I even find it with niches. You know, I say, ⁓ what I had this thing and what's your niche. and people go completely blank. It's like they've never had an interesting thought in their minds. So it's like, no, it's fine. Take the pressure off. I'm sure you've got something. Yeah. The finality of these questions are funny. And from the conversation today, is there one thing that you hope people will take away from it, from romanticizing their life? Go have some fun. Yeah. Yes. It's not, it's not a serious thing. I don't want to say go the extra mile, but go the extra mile. See what happens. See how you feel. Yeah. If you put on a candle and just like on a weekday, know, it doesn't have to be a special day. Just do it for yourself or if your friends coming over for dinner, try it, play around and then go on Monday morning. So if you live in Amsterdam on a Monday morning, go to the market and see if there's any funky props that you want. Well, there you go. Yeah. Is there something you're always looking for? there one of your plates? I'm always short on plates. I'm very critical about plates and then cutlery I love and Like a good lamp, linen sheets. Yep. Yeah. Keep an open mind. Keep an open mind. Yeah, lovely. And if people are listening to this at home and they're looking for ways or for more inspiration on how they can kind of set a scene, are there any Instagram accounts or magazines or movies or anything like that you suggest they watch? I would maybe watch some old Godara movies. Those are fun. And then I really like the Mr. Ripley. Yeah, the first movie, second movie in the series is also really nice. Yeah. Very sexy. I haven't watched it, but I read the book and it was amazing. ⁓ yeah. Yeah. Translate that into picture and then you the movie. Fantastic. And look around if you're visiting people, if you're in people's houses. See what they have and what you like and what you can take from that and ask them questions about it. Yeah. I'm quite a lot in other people's house because I also do interviews in people there. in their homes. And so it's just like, I look around and like, where did you get this? You know, it's, it's fun. And people love telling stories about where they got things from. Yeah. Real sense of pride. Yeah. ⁓ that's, that's great. Yeah. And what do you think this niche would look like if it went mainstream? ⁓ I think it's going mainstream in a way that people post, post their fun settings. I think You know, if it were go mainstream, think that we would see nothing on social media because people are just trying to be prevalent in the market. Having too much fun. Yeah. Having fun. Yeah. Yeah. And just being there in that scene, actually enjoying it rather than, you know, creating content. So maybe we'd see nothing. And social media blackout. Social media blackout. Yeah. Just give me funny memes. Okay. Yeah, perfect. I like that the push is... More beauty in life, less beauty online. Yeah. Yeah, great. Okay. And finally, if you could be an expert at any other niche that maybe exists or doesn't exist yet, what would it be? I think I would like to be really good at gardening. Yeah. I would love to have a big garden, big on gardening. Like a farmer. Like a proper do my gardening and then go see how the cows are doing, maybe see if the goats escaped. You know, goats are very hard to handle. Yeah. ⁓ And goat labneh is the suggestion. there, is your thing to eat. So you'd be making it yourself. I had it this morning. There you go. On your beautiful table set with lace and linen. Lovely. ⁓ that sounds brilliant. Well, I hope in the future you can come back and tell us all about your gardening escapades and the goats. Well, Caroline, thank you so much for sharing your niche. hope. People are inspired to go out and set the table or ask some more questions. And have some fun. And have some fun. Yeah. Not take it too seriously. Well, thank you so much for joining us at That's Niche. Thank you, Isabella. Thanks so much for listening to That's Niche. If you liked the episode, please subscribe and check us out on Substack and Instagram for more niche recommendations. The music was produced by Tim Commander. The branding was created by the studio, Dame Rae, and the podcast was edited by Tatiana Halbleton. That's it. See you next week.