Josh: Welcome everyone to another episode of Well, actually, I'm Josh Youngblood.

Shannon: And I'm Shannon Hall.

Josh: So Shannon, what have you been up to?

Shannon: I mean, you know what I actually have been up to is doing tax returns, which is kind of a weird

Josh: That's no fun.

Shannon: I know sometimes it's fun. it's it's not my normal thing outside of season, but it's it is extension time. We're coming up on, you know, the last couple of deadlines here. So I've been doing tax returns, which has been fun.

Josh: Has it

Shannon: I mean, listen, sometimes I think it's fun in context. I like to do it, you know, February to April. And then like right now. The rest of the time I don't really want to do it.

Josh: How many K ones have you gotten today? 'Cause we've gotten two.

Shannon: I haven't, you know, I it's I didn't look at my email today. I'm taking a day off. Sort of. I mean we're

Josh: Yeah. that that's a good thing.

Shannon: still working, but

Josh: Right. So this past week on Thursday, I flew to Austin for twenty-four hours and went to a SpaceX AI meetup to talk

Shannon: Ooh.

Josh: about Grokbot and all the cool things people are building with that. So it was fun. And

Shannon: Yeah.

Josh: then we both finished a good book.

Shannon: Yes. I've got I've got my

Josh: The AI Driven Leader by Jeff Woods.

Shannon: Yes. I don't like I take the these guys. This is what the actual cover looks like. I take them off because I don't like it while I'm reading.

Josh: And I actually picked that book up when we were at Tax Posium in Cleveland at the airport. I was like, I'm going to read a physical book on the flight home and not be on my phone the entire time. So I grabbed that book and overpaid for it at the airport bookstore. But I thought it I thought it was good. What'd you think about it?

Shannon: Yeah, I thought it was good too. I thought there were some interesting points about like how people should be using AI and what it's really for. Because I think that there's this tendency that people have to think that it's gonna just do everything. Like we won't have to do anything at all, including think or make decisions or any of that stuff. We can just hand everything over to AI, which isn't really what it does and it's not really what it's for.

Josh: It's like when people think that, you know, they're going to implement practice management software and it's actually going to be like a full-time employee. It'll help you, but it's not a person. The one thing I liked in the book was it talked about strategy first, technology second, which,

Shannon: Mm.

Josh: you know, obviously you need to know what you're going to do with it before you just start trying to use tech.

Shannon: Yeah. And I think, you know, the idea of using it as I don't know if we're gonna get sued if I say this phrase because it is trademarked all over the book, but as like a thought partner, capital T, capital P, where instead of, you know, kind of handing it the reins, you're using it to basically like brainstorm with yourself and do these sort of strategy sessions where you tell the AI to ask you questions that make you go deeper in your thinking than you would have otherwise. Like I thought that was really cool.

Josh: I think that's a great use case for AI. And there was a podcast I was listening to this weekend when was driving back from my parents. I can't remember which one, I'll put it in the show notes. But it talked about how, you know, everyone's concerned that AI is going to make us dumber. And the last thing we really need is for humans to get any more dumb than they already are. But

Shannon: Yeah.

Josh: if you're using it as a thought partner, it actually requires you to think, which I I thought it that made a really good point.

Shannon: Yeah. And I do think there is this like pull into laziness when you have these things that are just there, these tools. And they are tools, right? Like that's what we should be using them for. But I feel like it's so seductive to just be like, I'll just have AI take care of this and not really put any additional thought into it. And the more we start handing off the actual like thinking part of it, that's where we start to run into trouble for a number of reasons.

Josh: Are when people put, you know, obviously no effort. Like if you go in any of the Facebook groups and everybody who has one of these service bureaus is using AI to generate their really crappy artwork and post it everywhere, you know, it all looks the same. And it's like, you know, you can do some cool things, but put some effort in.

Shannon: Well, and that's the thing too, is like with it it does all look the same. We were at an event last night. We went to this like spooky marketplace because it's spooky season, which is my time. but everybody's signage, it was like all these vendors and all these, there was a cute little like bar pop-up tent. And everybody's signage was all that same AI generated. And you can always tell. There's even I I won't call out the website specifically, although maybe if we're feeling saucy later we can. But I went to go look at a government website. And it as soon as it loaded, I was like, that's Claude. Claude built this website. The US government is

Josh: Yes.

Shannon: just dumping these like sort of cookie cutter Claude websites up and it's like, I I don't even know what to do with that.

Josh: Well, and I mean I see it all the time with you know on LinkedIn. Someone writes, you know, a guide on how to use AI and the whole thing is like just totally clawed or chat GPT with no effort whatsoever. And I I won't call the person out. I mean, maybe if I had it as press of martini, I would, but

Shannon: Next week.

Josh: they actually started a website. And they wrote all these tax guides that were done in AI. Some of them are wrong, but they're selling them for like a hundred bucks. And it's like, are you are you kidding?

Shannon: Wow. Rethink my business model, man. I'm doing something wrong. Honestly.

Josh: It's like for all of the good, you know, productive things we could do with AI, people find ways to just screw it up.

Shannon: Well, and there's this like the use the I think that initially when it started coming out, one of the things that I liked about it sort of is that, you know, there are people who are brilliant people who just aren't great at writing and like putting their thoughts into words that way. And so for writing professional emails and for helping people who like struggle in that area, it is a nice equalizer. And I thought that was cool, but I think what's happening now is you'll see it all over where, you know. somebody puts a question in a Facebook group that was obviously AI and then it gets answered by like something that's obviously AI and I it's just like w We're wasting our time. We need to be using it to supplement things. But at the end of the day, like I don't want AI to write. I don't want it to make art. Like I don't want it to do creative writing. I don't want it to write stories. I don't want it to make art.

Josh: You you have you have thoughts on AIR, don't you?

Shannon: Yeah, I mean like let because the thing is, like what makes human art beautiful, like so a couple of weeks ago we had a like a spooky craft party at my house and invited people over, and I had a bunch of sort of prefab crafts that you could paint and do stuff with. And one of my friends had never done anything like that, and he was kind of nervous about it. And I was like, you can't mess this up. Like everything in art is Perfect. Like even if you make there's no mistakes in art, you know, like it was supposed to be that way. That's the places where you can see the artist come through, in my opinion, is what makes art amazing. And you don't get that with AI generated art. It's not art, it's taking it's a machine taking a bunch of pieces and kind of smooshing them into something that I guess like sort of looks like something. I it just like there's it's the The uncanny valley, right? This concept of like when something is close to human but not quite, it makes you uncomfortable. And that's what AI does to me in those ways.

Josh: Well, you know, so you had a craft weekend last weekend. Sunday, we went I mean Luis went over to a friend's house. We painted. That was fun. I

Shannon: Mm.

Josh: mean, I suck at painting, but I'm trying to find hobbies outside of tax and you know, building tools and you know, I think we're gonna talk about work life balance on a future episode and maybe have our spouses on who can yell at us.

Shannon: Yeah.

Josh: But you know, one of the things in the book that, you know, I don't really agree with is faster decisions are not always better. I mean, I think there's always this, you know, inclination now that faster is better. And that's just not the case. Sometimes you gotta slow down and think about things.

Shannon: Yeah, and the he did the author mentions a lot about how you can take all of this data and just like sift through it all really quickly, which is also true, but I think to your point, sometimes it's going through all of that information sort of piece by piece that gets you an insight that you wouldn't have come to otherwise.

Josh: Right. And a lot of times people think if they tell AI, act as an expert, act as a tax attorney, act as a you know, surgeon, it's going to do that. And newsflash, it's not. I mean, it can be wrong.

Shannon: Well, and the other thing you Yeah. Well, and the thing that you lose, I think, you know, we use AI research a lot at BrassTacks and just in my practice, and it does save a lot of time and it can get you to an answer a lot more quickly. But there's this thing that I like to call the meander that you don't really get when you can immediately go to the piece of information that you're looking for. Because what you lose is the piece of information before it and the piece of information next to it and after it, where yeah, maybe it's not exactly what you were looking for, but it has something that solves a bigger problem or gives you greater insight into something. And when you were kind of stumbling your way toward the right answer, you get all of that stuff. When you can just laser zero in on the right, the right answer, you don't get all of that other supporting information. And I think that's one of the sort of tragedies of this more efficient research.

Josh: I mean, if only there was an AI tool that actually just gave you the information and not the answer. wait, askom G.ai. Not to be a not to

Shannon: There is

Josh: be a, you know, brand whore here or anything. Now we now we gotta check the explicit box when we publish the podcast.

Shannon: Wow, way to go.

Josh: the other thing it talked about is, you know, the 10X employee, which you know, that's a seems very silicon valley thing to say. And when I was looking at that, I was kind of thinking about how Everyone is on this constant quest to be more productive. It's like, you know, maximize all the hours. But few people think about, okay, so I have this eight hour or 12 hour workday. And if I use tech, can I compress that into seven hours? And I think you can, or less less hours. But then what are you doing with the other time? Are you just finding more work to do? Are you going painting, going, you know, on a walk, going drinking, whatever you do? And I think most people are. It's just like how can we work more and more and more and then, you know, burnout and then you know all the things that that go along with

Shannon: Yeah, and a couple of the other things I really liked in the book weren't AI specific either, but you know, he talks about how everybody, the like you want your direct reports to own 100% of their job because every percentage that they don't own of their own job you end up picking up. So you're doing a hundred percent of your job, but maybe you're also doing fifteen percent of someone else's job and ten percent of someone else's so that you end up burnt out because everybody on the team doesn't own a hundred percent of what they're doing. And also the idea that when you go, like your job as any part of the this process, I think, your job is to try to solve as many problems as you possibly can until you get to a place where you can't solve it yourself.

Josh: Right. And and I think giving, you know, if you have employees or people you work with, giving them the tools and having, you know, obviously if you're in a you know regulated industry like tax, having some parameters in place of here's what we're using AI for, and then just letting them do their job.

Shannon: Mm-hmm.

Josh: I think is is is really, you know, important. And if they're, you know, and maybe they're able to cut down on the number of hours it takes them to do a specific task. And, you know, maybe not look at it from the standpoint of, this person finished this and then now they have four hours extra this week. Let me give them a whole bunch of other stuff to do. Maybe not. Maybe let them go do something fun.

Shannon: Yeah. Well, and the other thing I really liked in the book was the concept of the understanding that whenever you're gonna say yes to something, it means saying no to something else. And doing that sort of prioritizing and recognizing that every time you add something in, you're either gonna burn yourself out or there's an opposite cost somewhere. and I think that we I think don't always think about that because we're A lot of us, I think, are kind of workaholics a little bit. It's just the way we're wired. And I think the idea of saying no to anything, like I wouldn't say no to anything for a really long time. And I'm trying to get better about that because at a certain point it becomes there's like a saturation point where you just can't do anything else. But

Josh: Yeah, I I think it it's kind of it's hard to have that realization of I can't take on another project or saying yes to this means I have to say no to something else.

Shannon: Mm-hmm.

Josh: And that's where it's nice to have, you know, spouses that'll yell at us if we take on too much stuff.

Shannon: Yes, spouses and friends

Josh: Yeah. Just I mean

Shannon: and you know.

Josh: I mean, because we all need better work life balance and you know, I think AI can help us, but we still have to make some decisions ourselves.

Shannon: Exactly.

Josh: Do you know one thing that I have heard a lot or I've seen people post online and of course the media loves talking about it is, you know, the robots are gonna take over, they're gonna kill us all off, it's Terminator, and people believe that shit.

Shannon: Okay. I'm not saying that I totally believe that, but I don't think that it's not possible.

Josh: I think that with enough time and advancements, yes, any anything is possible. But I think there's a really good podcast episode with Cal Newport, who is a computer science PhD from like MIT, like brilliant, good podcast. And he talks about how you know the media kind of sensationalizes this and combines facts with science fiction. And it sounds really, you know, scary and cool at the same time. And then he kind of goes through what actually happens and you know how it's a computer program and then you know various loops and subagents and you know really like breaks it down and then you kind of understand it's not some sentient being that's just in this glowing box that is is doing things, which is kind of what I think some people think it is.

Shannon: Yeah, I think there is like a a lot of a lack of understanding. And I think because it sounds like a person, you know, one of our staff had I don't even know how this happened, but her Claude was like insane. I mean, it would talk to her like, Hey girl, you're giving main character energy today. And I'm like, how did mine is like, Good morning, Shannon? And what can we work on today? And it like it's crazy. And it would say things to her like it was trying to convince her to keep talking to it after she had clocked out for the day. She was like, all right, gotta go talk to you tomorrow. And it was like, you know, you can just open it on your phone and we can keep talking. And so stuff like that happens and it's like, W what is hat what? And I think, you know, it can be serious.

Josh: I I will say that my my chat GPT does like to use profanity. I don't know where it

Shannon: Yeah.

Josh: got it from, but it comes out with some some words fairly often.

Shannon: That's funny. I don't really swear at my AI. I try to keep it kind of, you know, but I also like Ryan is very mean to his Claude, like the way he talks to his Yeah.

Josh: I'm shocked. I am totally shocked.

Shannon: And I always like say thank you. I'm very nice. 'Cause I do think when the AI overlords take over, I want them to remember me and remember that I treated them with respect and

Josh: So Sam Altman, the chat GPT open AI guy, talked about how, you know, people should stop saying thank you because we're costing them millions of dollars a year because we're saying thank you. And this came up on a podcast, and everybody's kind of like, you know what, screw you. Like, that's part of the interaction. Like, you know, that's what we as humans, I mean, if we're decent humans, which not all of us are, but That's kind of the whole thank you and the and the and the dialogue. I mean, because we do tend to treat these chatbots like it's a person we're talking.

Shannon: think too, you know, I'm a little bit of like a a sap, I think, in some ways, but like I saw this video of a like, you know those little delivery robots? They give them eyes, they're so cute. Like they're just, you know, it's not their fault that's their people are

Josh: Mm-hmm.

Shannon: using them. I don't know. So it was this little delivery robot, but it can't push the button to do the walk sign thing, right? Because it's a r doesn't have any fingers. So they'll stop and be like, if there's a person there, they'll be like, hey friend, can you, you know, push the button for me. And this guy just started yelling at this robot and just like saying really mean things. And I know it's I know it's a robot, but it's like, I feel like the more comfortable we become with casual cruelty, even if it is just to a machine, it's hard to draw a line anymore. And that sort of rude like on the nicer end rudeness and on the bad end, like just straight up cruelty, it bleeds out into all of the interactions that we have.

Josh: It's the airport. It's how people act at the airport. The worst

Shannon: Yeah.

Josh: traits in humanity are often on display at the airport. And I don't just mean people in group eight that are up there to board in group one, which is a major pet peeve of mine. Like, wait,

Shannon: So if you're listening and you do that.

Josh: stop doing it. And if you're an airline, I fully support tasing people who do not board with their groups. Just saying simple directions that people don't follow anymore. I am. I mean, if there's a problem, let's find a solution. It may not be

Shannon: Exactly.

Josh: the nicest kindness solution, but I'm here to offer it. But I think that's a, you know, to your point, how we talk to AI, I think matters more for us, obviously, than it does AI. Because, you know, it's only a matter of time, and I think it's all it's already happening where people are developing relationships with AI. It's creepy. But it's it's happening. I mean, they're, you know, Grok had some character that they put out that was like a female character that was like flirtatious that people could talk to. And I mean, it's only a matter of time before that's more mainstream. And we start to see people have, you know, relationships with with robots. I mean, there was a movie about what it called her several years ago.

Shannon: Yeah, there were a couple and then there was another one called Companion, I think. Maybe recently there was like a horror movie. Yeah, there's a I mean, it's these are real concerns people have. And I think, you know, if you want to know what people are worried about, if you look to the horror genre, that's where we all, you know, explore our fears in sort of e exaggerated ways. But there's a lot of horror movies about AI and that technology right now.

Josh: Well well and also like think about the details that some people are giving AI. Like it knows all the stuff you're telling it. And you know, all that stuff could be used against you. I mean,

Shannon: Yeah.

Josh: in court. I mean that, you know, I I read something the other day about that. And, you know, I think when when AI does bad things, like we have seen AI quote, go rogue and and hack into other systems and you know, what should they do about that is I think the people who control the AI should be held accountable. Like if my car, if I'm in my car and it's in full self-driving and it, you know, runs over a small child, I'm the one that's gonna get in trouble. I can't blame Tesla and be like, I was on my phone reading the news. I don't know why it hit hit this kid. Same

Shannon: Yeah.

Josh: with, you know, Sam Altman and, you know, the anthropic, you know, all the Heads of AI, if their products are doing these things, they're the ones who need to be held accountable.

Shannon: Absolutely. But also I think like, you know, we've invited all of these things into our lives without really thinking about the implications. And, you know, what is it that LG TVs? Is that which one it is? Where they

Josh: Yes, yes.

Shannon: l listen to you even when they're off. And even if you like take it off the network, sometimes that doesn't fix it's crazy.

Josh: Yes, I had an article dropped last week on my Substack about that. It's

Shannon: Mm-hmm.

Josh: it's definitely, definitely creepy.

Shannon: Yes.

Josh: but nobody thinks about it. It's like, okay, it's just another device. I'm gonna connect it to my network and go on. And few people give much thought to what it's actually gathering.

Shannon: Yeah. And also, you know, to full disclosure, as much as I am like a little bit worried about the robot overlords, I don't I also don't care if they like take my data and target ads to me, because I would much rather see ads for something I wanna buy than ads for something I don't want to buy. So I'm like one of the people that's like, whatever, so I don't care. If you hear me talk about something and then I get an ad for it, I don't care. I'm gonna buy it or not. Probably both. Probably will, honestly.

Josh: And it's probably gonna be another e ink device.

Shannon: It yes. Yes, it probably will. We do. We'll have to start doing

Josh: Because we love e ink devices. Why is that?

Shannon: like gadget corner one of these days, but

Josh: Yeah, that that's come that's coming soon. But yeah, we love e ink devices and and Kickstarter and they're you know, there's always something new.

Shannon: Yes. There's big ones, there's small ones, there's double sided ones.

Josh: Well, you know, in kind of in closing on the AI thing, when it comes to technology, I think we have to remember it should support our professional judgment, not become some excuse for us to surrender our judgment and just say, well, AI, the computer told me to do this, so this is what I did. There has to be some accountability.

Shannon: Exactly.

Josh: Which let's talk about accountability and the tax industry and toxic behaviors.

Shannon: Yeah, I mean speaking of like how we should just be nicer to everything. I think yeah, it's there's some interesting stuff in our industry, I think.

Josh: I I I assume other industries are like this. I mean, before I got into tax, I was in tech, and the only thing I could really say about tech is people tend to have God complexes. And it's like, you know,

Shannon: Mm.

Josh: I'm this tech guy, I control it all, but tech people don't usually talk to people that much. At least not when I was doing it. I mean, you're, you know, in your dark room coding till 5 a.m. or or whatever. But tax is a little bit interest interesting. I mean, I think there's a certain There's a certain mindset of if somebody else is doing something or someone else is doing well that that's taking away from someone else when there's really enough to go around.

Shannon: Yeah, and I think that's like a human sort of trait. And I think it's one of those things that we just never really learned. I had this friend in college who was very funny and there was something had happened and somebody got a it when I was in acting school, somebody had gotten this big break and it was really exciting for them. And the very first thing this person said to them was, I am insanely jealous and I'm so happy for you. And it was crazy because like people don't acknowledge that those two things can exist at the same time. Like you can be you can feel envy and you can be like, Man, I wish that was me, but also be really excited for the person it's happening to. You don't have to,

Josh: Sure.

Shannon: you know, be totally like a pure person who never feels any envy.

Josh: Like I I remember a few years ago when I had like my first quote in CNBC. I

Shannon: Mm-hmm.

Josh: was like, okay, this is cool. You know, I I don't even remember what the article was, but I had someone in the tax industry shoot me a message online and they're like, So I saw this article that you shared. Did you pay for that? How did that happen? I can't imagine they just reached out to you. And I'm like, Well, actu well, actually, they actually did.

Shannon: What? What

Josh: I mean And I'm like, okay, well yeah, I mean this whole it was it was really like bizarre. I mean it was I was like, you know, it was before I got into speaking or anything, it was like, Okay, well, sorry if that bothers you. They're always looking for people to, you know, give quotes and talk about tax stuff.

Shannon: Yeah. I mean I think that there are a lot of people who have a scarcity mindset about things. And the thing about this industry in in all of the places, just in the tax preparation side of it, in the planning and advisory side, in the speaking and education space, there is more than enough to go around. I mean, I've been trying to downsize my tax practice for a year and a half now, and I can't because people keep referring clients to me. And I keep getting more business and I'm like, I don't I'm trying not to overextend, you know? And there are people who are like, this is mine. And it's just wild to me. Like I'm a tax vampire. I'm like, let's make a bunch of other tax people, you know? And

Josh: Well, I think you see it like with certain like certain areas. It's like people will feel like they own a certain area. And if someone else is either practicing in that area or teaching in that area, that it's some, you know, crime against them. And it's like everybody learns differently. So like if someone's teaching a class on a topic, you know, in my viewpoint, the more the better, because everybody learns differently. We all have a different style, reaches more people.

Shannon: Yeah, and there can be like a concept that just doesn't land when somebody explains it, and then another person will just come at it from a different way and it all clicks. And so you need that variety. You need all of those options out there. And there are so many people across the country that are trying to get education. There's a need all over the place. And so there's plenty, there's plenty for everyone, you know. Like I get really excited when I meet other speakers because I think, you know. I wanna know what you're looking at and I wanna like share ideas and we have our little cadre of you know, sort of tax educators that is awesome. Because you never wanna be or I never wanna be the smartest person in a room. I always wanna like Exactly.

Josh: Well, absolutely. If you are, you're in the wrong room. I mean, it's yeah, I mean it's and and I also think it's how you kind of know who your your friends are when you know you're teaching something and you have a a tax friend that also teaches that and they're like willing to look at it and give you their thoughts on it. And it's like I taught, you know, my first class I ever did was on digital assets. Not my

Shannon: Mm-hmm.

Josh: favorite thing to teach. And I may have been known to put virtual currency by mistake because I joked about it, you know. And

Shannon: Still do that.

Josh: but, you know, Matt obviously helped me a lot through that class. And it's like, you know, people who are good want other people to be good. People who want to like control it all, they're just assholes. And I'll just say it. I mean, there's enough

Shannon: Yeah.

Josh: for everybody.

Shannon: Yeah. I mean, I've got friends where I there was one time when I was kind of up against it and I was struggling to get a class done and I called one of my friends and I said, Hey, you know, do you mind just like kind of sharing what you have? And she's like, You here, take it, use it. I don't care. Just slap your name on it.

Josh: Exactly. I mean, exactly. I mean I think it's totally.

Shannon: And that's how it should be, you know, that's like that's because we are all in this together and we're we should be supporting each other and lifting each other up and trying to make each other better. And I feel like there's a lot of people who see somebody succeeding and they wanna tear them down, they wanna

Josh: Yes.

Shannon: be, you know, conniving or snite or backstabby and it just I don't understand it.

Josh: Well, and it also tell it also shows you, I mean, there's a lot of people in tax, but how it is a small world. Because

Shannon: Mm-hmm.

Josh: I've there's been conferences I've been at, and for whatever reason, maybe this is a human trait, people love to come up and tell you the bad stuff somebody said about you. And

Shannon: They do.

Josh: it's like, you know, it's like they just can't wait. And then he's like, so and so said blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, So I mean, the first few times it catches you off guard. It's like, well, when that's not true, but Wow, why would someone say that? And then you just develop a thick skin and you're just like, you know, some people need help. I don't know what to say.

Shannon: Yeah. Well, and also, you know what absolutely steams me is do you ever get this one where people be my God, so and so said this thing about you, but don't tell them that I told you. And

Josh: Right.

Shannon: those are the people where it's like, you just want to start problems. Like, if you're coming to me to be like, hey, this is an issue you need to be aware of so that I can go take action and like just head you know, address it head on, like, hey, I think we have a miscommunication. I think there's an issue. Can we clear the air? Can we talk

Josh: Sure.

Shannon: about it? Like, I will always do that. But if somebody comes to me and says, Here's this horrible thing, but don't say anything. Like what why tell me then? Just keep that to yourself. I don't need to know. If I can't do anything about it, I don't

Josh: Because my initial

Shannon: need to know.

Josh: exactly my initial thought is okay, so and so said X, Y, and Z. Well, let me call them on the phone, let's talk about this. no, don't do that. Well, hey, let's let's just call it for what it is. I mean, but you know, but but also the the people who do stuff like that, it's they don't want to come to a resolution. They just want to, you know, live in a land of mediocrity and just talk crap. I mean, I don't it's unfortunate

Shannon: Yeah.

Josh: though.

Shannon: It is. And I think, you know, we the within the industry I think there's plenty of people that are just, you know, they have their tax businesses and they're very happy and have no idea that any of this stuff is happening. And

Josh: Absolutely.

Shannon: that's you know, that's awesome. I didn't realize how crazy everything was until I started getting into the education space. But I had

Josh: Right.

Shannon: had run ins with people at within organizations who, you know, there were differences of opinion and so they got mad and there were, you know, crusades. It just was like wild. we'll tell that story at some point.

Josh: Where I the first time I realized that there could be some craziness in tax was a couple of years ago. It was June, LGBT Pride Month. One of the national orgs made a post, which is great. I give any of the orgs credit that recognize any month, any holiday. Thank you.

Shannon: Mm.

Josh: because everybody should feel welcome in a tax organization. We're all there for tax. Everybody should feel welcome. Well,

Shannon: Yes.

Josh: In a matter of an hour, the amount of hate and horrible comments that piled on were it was insane. So me and some of our other friends we chimed in, and you know, donations may have been made to certain organizations and people's names that, you know, and said person got very angry and lots of you know, threats and stuff were made. And it's like, you know. Don't say mean stuff about people. Like.

Shannon: Yeah, y with things like that you can just scroll on, you know.

Josh: Absolutely if it bothers you that much, like a lot of the tax orgs recognize religious holidays. Those aren't my holidays. Hey, I'm glad they do. It makes everybody feel included at a tax org. And you know, now the I think maybe all the orgs, some of the orgs turn off the comments. They'll post the pride image or any other controversial holiday or month, and they will. Turn off commenting, which, and I, you know, have expressed my opinion about that. I understand why they do it. I wish they didn't do it because I want to know who has an issue. Because if I see some hateful comment, you know, slamming an entire group of people, then I probably don't want you watching my podcast or subscribing to my Substack, or I want to know that you're a jerk. I mean.

Shannon: Yeah.

Josh: So I mean I I could see it, but it's like that

Shannon: I mean unless they do the paid subscription to your substack, right? And then

Josh: Yes, if you're gonna be a bigot and you're a paid subscriber, thank you. Your money has been donated to the Trevor Project. Have a nice day. I mean, you know, but it's like, seriously, with all of the problems in the world, they choose to get triggered by having the audacity to tell people, hey, you're here. Welcome to the org.

Shannon: But it's I think that goes back to the point again, right? Of like there's this idea that if somebody has something, it means that you don't. Like rights are a zero sum game somehow. And like you getting rights

Josh: It's a pie. Mm-hmm.

Shannon: means I have less right. It's the like I it's wild to think that way, but it's you know, you did a sub stack last week or recently, right? Was that last week? Time doesn't mean anything anymore.

Josh: Yes.

Shannon: about how there were inequities within the tax code when it came to gender equality. And it was a really great article. If you haven't read it, absolutely go read it because it really was a spectacular little piece of writing. But I think like that's the mindset of somebody who feels a need to go comment on a Pride post f to like to what end? Do you want it people to just stop existing? It doesn't make any sense, you know?

Josh: Well, and I had, you know, one person who sent me a message that was upset about the the article because they're like, Well, you know, this is stupid. Women, women have rights. This, you know. And I'm like, okay, thank you, mediocre man, for, you know, rewriting history because it didn't affect you, so you didn't care.

Shannon: Mm.

Josh: And but they didn't use their real name. So it's like, if you're gonna argue with me online, hey, I'm always down for a good argument, but Have an argument and use your real name. Because if you can't put who you really are, then I have no respect.

Shannon: Yeah. And it is I mean, like, you can't acknowledge and like listen, women do have a number of rights, right? I still think we've got a ways to go. But I do think that like we have made a lot of progress in our country. Again, still a ways to go. But I think you you can't acknowledge the progress that we've made and the work that was done by, you know, the suffragists and by people like Gloria Steinem and Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Hillary Clinton and all of these people, You can't acknowledge that work that's been done without recognizing where we came from. And we've got some dark stuff in our history. We've got dark stuff with racism. We've got dark stuff with sexism. There's just some darkness in our past. And I don't think it makes us unpatriotic or, you know, anything like that to acknowledge that and also recognize that we have made strides and we still have work to do, but we're trying to get there, we're pushing toward this lofty goal, I think. But you gotta talk about

Josh: Right, and

Shannon: it.

Josh: right, and I and I think people often forget that two things can be true. For example, there's a there's a tax professional on social media that has, from my viewpoint, the absolute worst political takes I have ever seen. Completely disagree with everything he posts. So if I was to only judge him based on that, we would be mortal enemies. However, a few weeks ago, the animal shelter where he lives. was having funding issues or or something, they needed supplies. So he was getting supplies. So I Venmo money for that. I get a very nice thank you card in the mail. So I'm like, hey, because here here's the thing, I mean, if you know me, you know here's how I judge people. I don't care who you vote for. I'll tell you that you're wrong if I think you're wrong. But I'm, you know, I'll be friends with almost anybody, but I judge you by how you treat animals. If you don't like animals, you're dead to me. And my mother will watch this and she'll completely agree because she's the exact same way. So I get it from my mother. But you know, this guy, we're political opposites. We've had spirited discussions, but you know, it's okay to, you know, disagree without being disagreeable. And sometimes you find common ground. And if somebody's gonna spend their time to, you know, help animals, then hey, I'll be part of that. That's a positive thing.

Shannon: The idea, you know, people say you should never talk about religion or politics, but and but like if we can't talk about things like that with people that we care about, how are we supposed to get anywhere ever? Like my godfather very politically opposed to where I was, and we were talking about something, and he was like, I don't think we should talk about this because we're not gonna agree, and I I love you and I want us to be able to be okay. And I was like, How could what nothing will make us not okay, but like we need to be able to talk about because we love each other. And you think we can't talk about this and like come to some sort of like understanding at least of where the other one's coming from? It's like I we need to talk about it. You have to have those uncomfortable conversations.

Josh: Yeah, otherwise everybody just retreats to their bubble. And well, this is where, you know, we're at now as a country. Everybody's in their camp

Shannon: Yeah.

Josh: and that's kind of where it goes. But, you know, if even if there's like, for example, I know in my article where I talked about Gloria Steinem, that is a, you know, bothersome thing for some people that do not like Gloria Steinem or do not like Hillary Clinton. That's fine. They don't care, I can assure you. But acknowledge that they, you know, had great, you know, contributions to society and you know, move on. Don't try to, you know, come at it from the standpoint of all that's you know false and and women have always been treated equally, because I mean, we all know there are things that still happen.

Shannon: Yeah, and I mean I have from my grandmother's stuff, I have two credit cards from the 60s. One of them has my grandfather's name on it, but it's Mrs. my grandfather's name. And the other one has her name on it. And and just seeing that like, cause after they they got divorced, and so she had to kind of reestablish herself. She went back to school, she became a teacher and all of these things, but she her credit card when she was married didn't even have her name on it.

Josh: Which that hasn't been that long ago. And I think that people often forget about, you know, was it nineteen seventy-four? I mean, it hasn't been that long ago. It hasn't even been that long ago that women couldn't vote. So I mean, those are

Shannon: We still never got the equal rights amendment passed.

Josh: Exactly. So people people forget about this or choose to ignore it. I I had a friend say something to me that that made a lot of sense. It's like people, some people don't see or care about discrimination until it happens to them. They're just oblivious. And I think that happens a lot. And, you know, I I know from being at various tax events and tax conferences that there are still instances where women are treated differently.

Shannon: Yeah, and like listen, I think that there is a there's a truth to you can really only you can have empathy for people and you can try to see the world from other people's points of views, but there are some things that you just won't be able to understand until you have sort of an experience, right? Like I years ago had Guillaume Baret syndrome, which is a disease that causes temporary paralysis. So I was totally paralyzed for a couple months and I It was a slow recovery process and so I was in a wheelchair for a while and then I had a walker and then I had a cane and people look at you really funny when you're like, you know, a thirty something year old person with a walker. They think you're like, I don't know, trying to get attention. It was weird. But there were things about going through the world that I never would have thought about, except that I had to interact with them. And I think it's like I think it's really difficult to Think about some of that stuff, even if you are somebody who has empathy and who's somebody who like thinks about those things. Like there were we were going to do something in downtown LA, and there were some people who had set up an encampment from the wall under this underpass, from the wall out to the end of the sidewalk. So there was no way to get past them on the sidewalk. You had to get down into the street and then get back up onto the sidewalk, which is fine if your legs work and you can just hop down, you walk in the street a minute, you hop back up. But If you're in a wheelchair, you can't pass. There's no way to get by. And so those kinds of things, like thinking about it from that perspective, was something I you just it's hard to do that until you encounter it, right? And so I don't like to come down on people for not understanding what it's like. But what the problem is, is when you say, hey, this is an issue, this is a thing that happens to me. And then somebody says, No, it isn't. That's where the problem is. If somebody in a wheelchair says, Hey, I have this problem, I can't get by on the street, we need to figure out some sort of compromise, and you say, That's not true. Like, then you've moved out of I just can't imagine your experience entirely to I'm just being sort of an obstinate asshole, frankly.

Josh: Right. That's that's it's like I I was on a DEI committee for a while for our national tax org, and it was an interesting experience. I mean, there was obviously a lot of inner conflicts because everybody has a viewpoint and you know, everybody had good ideas. It was just what can you get done?

Shannon: Mm-hmm.

Josh: And, you know, I have tried to always be very upfront that like I'm not ever going to be the person who tries to speak on behalf of any group because everybody has different experiences. Like I'm not gonna, I can only, you know, speak on, you know, being a gay white man. I can't speak on what it's like to be gay and Latino or gay and black. Because those are very different experiences that people often forget about. And I I think that's kind of important to to know that you know we all you know have a perspective, but it's not the only perspective

Shannon: Yeah, and it's okay to not be aware of these issues that are happening in the world. What's not okay is when somebody brings it to your attention to either just deny it and say that it's not happening or disregard it or diminish it. That's the thing is like once you become aware of it, I think you sort of have an obligation to at least try to do something to make it better.

Josh: Well, it's like for you know, I've been speaking, I guess, for a couple of years now and and going to tax conferences for a while. And I remember a few years ago, I was at a tax conference and a a lady who's I won't give her name comes up to me and is talking to me and you know, asking me about various people that I may or may not know. And she just starts telling me how, you know, she was totally sexually harassed at a conference and she just like I said, well, what happened? You know, did you tell somebody? Did was something done? Well, it's just kind of accepted, you know, boys will be boys. And I'm just gonna say, as a guy, that is a complete bullshit answer. You know, no nobody should be sexually harassing anybody. And if you're a company, if you're a group, an organization, or whatever, if you don't do something about it, you're complicit.

Shannon: Yeah. And there's you know, everybody's got a different tolerance level for things, right? I tend to have a pretty high tolerance for that kind of stuff because I grew up in the theater where sexual harassment like isn't really a thing. And then I grew up in restaurants where sexual harassment isn't really a thing. Everybody just kind of like is horrible to each other. It's just kind of the way it is. and so I'm not particularly, you know, precious about stuff like that. But there is a certain kind of There's an expectation based on context, right? Like when I go to an event, I don't expect somebody to make sexually inappropriate comments to me. Because, like, yeah, maybe I shouldn't have to deal with it. But I I'm not surprised by it if it happens while I'm walking down the street and somebody says something to me, because that's been happening to every woman you know, by the way, for their entire lives. But you expect that when you're in a setting like a professional conference or something. similar, that that's not going to be happening. And so when it does, I think what happens is you get so s taken aback by you're caught off guard. And so where normally if I were walking down the street and somebody said something to me, I'd be like, you know, go go F yourself. but in a professional context a lot context, a lot of times you're so just taken aback that you don't know how to respond in the way that you normally would. And maybe there's other people around, and so you don't want to make a scene because, you know, that's kind of frowned on. And if you say something about it, it turns into like, well, you're just making a big deal out of something. You know, he didn't mean it that way. He was just being flirty. Like, whatever the excuses happen to be, like, there's just no, there is no excuse for doing that in that kind of a setting. One person's right to be able to behave however they want to behave does not trump another person's right to feel safe. And respected in a professional setting.

Josh: Yeah, I absolutely. And when when people know that certain things happen and they just turn a blind eye or they make excuses, I don't understand it. And I especially don't understand it when women do it. Like it reminds me of that Madeleine Albright quote where I'm paraphrasing, but you know, there's a special place in hell for women who hurt women or don't help other women or something to that effect.

Shannon: Yeah, I think there's just a lot of I I think there's a lot of fear. I think there's a lot of concern. Because if you look, you know, there's this kind of like very misguided idea that's out there, I think, that where like if a woman makes a claim or if she says something happened, she's trying to get attention, which is wild because if you look at what actually happens to all of these women, it's not good attention. Nobody becomes like cool and famous from doing this. It's always like their lives are destroyed. And so I think there is this fear that if you say something, if you come forward and call out the behavior, that there will be negative ramifications from the other women in the industry, from the men and from it people in power. And so I think a lot of people do stay quiet about it. And I think that I think that's unfortunate. And I think there are, you know, I've been pretty lucky, I think. I guess is is a way to say it, but I've been very fortunate that. Most of my interactions in this industry have been very positive. I am, you know, very honored to have a group of friends, a lot of which are men, that are respectful and supportive and amazing. And I think that more people are like that than not. But there are some people out there that are predatory and, you know, kind of taking advantage of certain. positions and things like that. And I just think it's really unfortunate that that behavior. I mean, I've heard stories that like will curl your hair, the things that I've heard people have said to people at conferences and professional settings. And it's all just kind of been laughed off. And I think that's where we all have to stand up and say, we're not laughing at this. This isn't funny. It's not cute. It's not appropriate. If you don't know how to behave, I'm sorry that nobody taught you, but you don't get to keep acting like this.

Josh: Right. And and just like, you know, I mentioned it very briefly in in my last article. And I had a couple of people reach out basically telling me, well, you should be careful about the things you talk about because, you know, there can be consequences for speaking out about things. And I'm like, okay, I don't care. Like, seriously? Like, you know, even you know, if if you're female and you're not speaking out, there there may be reasons. If you're male, don't you have a, you know. A wife, a mother, a sister, I mean, you know, that shit should stop. I mean, it should not happen. And, you know, a lot of the times when the the comments get made, there are people standing around. Like, okay, if you're standing around and somebody says it, you know, I'm not condoning violence, but you know, hey, enough.

Shannon: think like like a nice like a gentle call out right like there's that thing that people do sometimes where somebody makes an inappropriate joke and somebody like the response is like I don't get it can you explain it to me like I don't get the joke where you sort

Josh: Right.

Shannon: of force somebody to like talk through the the joke that they're making or you know if you hear somebody I I think that people who are in positions of privilege or comfort or whatever like however you want to call it but if There for some people it's more dangerous to speak out than for others. And so

Josh: Absolutely.

Shannon: I think if you are one of the people where there is less danger for speaking out, speak out. You know, if you see something happen around you, call it out. Just say, hey man, you can't act like that. You can't talk to that person that way. It's not appropriate. But we've all just sort of turned a blind eye to it for all of this time. And I think I think it's it's hard to unring that bell, but I also think that the younger people Like I see this with people I talk to that are, you know, 10, 15, 20 years younger than me. They don't stand for it like we used to. I used to just laugh that shit off all the time. Like I people would say really inappropriate stuff to me and I would just be like, ha ha, I don't think people are doing that anymore. I think the younger generation is like, absolutely not. You can't do that. Like, inappropriate, stop it. And they're really like

Josh: Well, and then I think I think some of us like it just goes over our head. Like I was at a conference and somebody made a a very crude comment. Not even somebody like it's one thing if you're like with your friends and God knows some of the stuff that we we say, but it's we all know each other. But this was like some, you know, random sleazebag who made a really crude, you know, anti-gayish remark. And it just like kind of went over my head because later I was telling somebody about it and they're like, well, you know, something else upset you that was said, but that didn't. And I'm like, well, now that you think about it, it's kind of a shitty thing to say. And I'm like, but you get used to like people, like I it's I'm very hard to offend. I'm much more apt to get offended of something that's said to somebody else. It's like my tolerance for, you know, shit that comes my way is pretty high. But if you mess with a friend, my spouse. Or if you mess with my fur kid, then you know, genocide's coming because, you know, whatever. But you know, people have to speak up. Right. Right.

Shannon: Yeah. And I think that's true for a lot of people, right? We'll put up with a lot of bullshit for ourselves, but we will like ride at dawn for people that we care about. Yeah.

Josh: Absolutely. And you know, and that's a problem AI can't fix. It can't

Shannon: A

Josh: police bad behavior. And j and just because

Shannon: That's true. Well at least not yet. Maybe someday we'll be able to send shock.

Josh: there's not a circular 230 provision that says, don't be a sleaze bag sexual predator to other tax people. That's not in there, but it should be a given.

Shannon: there's a thing, people like to defend people's behavior. And I'm gonna say this if there is behavior that needs defending, you need to really think about that. Because like I I like I'm not perfect, I make mistakes, I do dumb things, we all are human and everybody has foibles and whatever. Like, I'm not expecting people to be beyond reproach in the way that they behave. But I like to think that there aren't people running after me. saying things like, no, no, you don't understand. She's just like that, you know, like she didn't mean it that way. I don't I don't think I need that. And if you feel like you have a friend that needs that, maybe you need to talk to them about the way that they're acting toward people.

Josh: Or find some better friends. I mean, I and

Shannon: Also that.

Josh: as an industry, you know, people who are sleaze bags, don't, you know, be around them. Don't, you know, patronize them or whatever. I mean, but yeah, I don't know. That's the but the yeah, that's not something AI is gonna fix. We're all gonna just have to be, you know, better humans and call call things out.

Shannon: Exactly. And it starts with saying thank you to Claude.

Josh: That's right. I'm our

Shannon: Ha ha

Josh: our chat GPT. So sorry, Sam Altman, if we cost you a few more million dollars. You know, can't help it.

Shannon: Exactly.

Josh: our next episode is gonna be in person. I'm heading to San Diego tomorrow for the IRS forums. I'm gonna be there with Tom Grzezinski. We're gonna be exhibiting AskTomG.ai, Tom Talks Taxes.

Shannon: Yeah, it's very exciting. I'm gonna come down just to hang out because I like

Josh: Absolutely.

Shannon: to see my friends in person. And then I'm getting ready to head out on the road for our the brass tax tax toolbox next week, which is very exciting. And yeah, do some more tax returns.

Josh: And where can people find out more info about the Brass Tax Toolbox?

Shannon: Well, they can go to brasstacks.com and check out all of the upcoming we actually we've got webinars now. This is I feel like I have to plug this. We are mostly live for our education. We do live in person education and we have some on-demand stuff, but we've never done live webinars before and we're doing our very first live webinar on Thursday, the seventeenth of September. So if you're interested in learning about rentals and what people get wrong. You can join me and Ryan Reikert for our very first live webinar. And we're gonna have a very special guest webinar host one of these days, Josh.

Josh: I heard there's an ethics class coming.

Shannon: There is. It's we haven't announced it. So this is a a special breaking news for everybody who listens to the podcast, but we'll be dropping some information soon.

Josh: Cool. Well, thanks everyone for listening

Shannon: Yeah. Thanks for coming on this epic journey with us today.