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speaker-1: Hey everybody, Tony Carroll here with Mayday Monday, back for the October 26th edition. this month we're gonna revisit an incident from several years ago and it re revisit a podcast that we did before. but before, let me let me get into let me remind us about last month's show. If you were with me last month, we talked to A couple guys from the Charlotte Fire Department who found themselves in a very precarious situation in a a big fire. Turned out to be a big fire in Charlotte. building under construction. those guys were assigned to go find a couple of workers that were missing. They got cut off by the expanding fire. And ultimately, you know, with training and calmness, thinking about They're their their their Mayday training, they were able to find their way back through the stairwell and get out. Last month's with they weren't in a position to escape with a ladder. but as as we want to emphasize some of the skills we can learn, last month's the skill was practicing your ladder escape technique. Right? Make sure you practice that because if it's been a while, those skills become perishable. And we want to be able to recall them at a moment's notice. So please go go check that out. This month we're gonna focus on, like I said, we're gonna go we're gonna revisit a a fire from a few years ago. a fire that killed firefighter Nate Flynn from the Howard County, Maryland fire rescue services. Chuck Ridgeley was the incident commander of that fire. recently I had a re-interview with Chuck for some for a commanding the mayonnaise class that I'm involved with. You've heard me talk about this over the last few months. this class kind of focuses on incident commanders and what they can do to be p better prepared for the this this incident. So with that, we I interviewed Chuck to try and get some ideas about what he had felt, what he found at this fire. So please we're gonna go into that. We're gonna do that interview with Chuck. he was gracious enough to come back. He's not He's not working for the fire side. He is working for the fire department, but now I think he's in code enforcement and that kind of thing. So he's still involved. And a couple of things you'll you'll hear was a disconnect between front and back or where he was and what was going on in the back. and we'll talk a little bit about that after the interview and wrap this up, right? So go take a look, go listen to this vide this audio, this this interview with Chuck, and then we'll come back and wrap it up. So I'm just I'm trying to to capture anything that you might be able to add to that stress part. So i let's get back to auditory exclusion. Did you think there was anything that you might have missed because of the stress of the incident?

speaker-0: No, I don't think that I missed anything, but certainly there were things that didn't have my full attention because there was too many. There was radio traffic, there was people at my window, there was there was those, you know, information coming in. And again, I don't think that I missed anything, but there was certainly maybe things that distracted me from from other other auditory things coming in.

speaker-1: So I know that at the time, like, you had what, about a ten minute response time from your quarters to the scene?

speaker-0: Yeah, it w give us a good ten minutes. Yeah. Easy.

speaker-1: And they got there, they got to the scene pretty quick, the first inch.

speaker-0: Yeah. they were they were a couple of minutes. I would say it was probably no more than two to three minutes in between them res them arriving and us. And I'm not looking at the you know, all that is in the the ISRB report. but you know, I we were in the area when they went on the scene. I I wasn't far behind them.

speaker-1: I remember we talked about you had identified that house as having a pool, right? And using possibly using that water supply. Is that how did did was that just from your memory?

speaker-0: That was from my MDT. That was looking at at my MDT and knowing that it was a non-hydrated area. so naturally I'm always thinking about primary and secondary order sources, and knowing again that I'm going into a non-hydrant area. when I saw that pool and and that specific engine company, They carried that hydraulic pump that no other none of the rest of our companies carried, but because most of their area is non-hydrant, they carried that hydraulic pump. And that particular pump operator, we had had many conversations in the years leading up to that, and he had always said, Chief, you get me within 150 feet of a pool, and I'll get you 600 gallons in the flip of a switch. So when I when I looked at my MDT and saw that there was a pool on the Charlie side of the house, you know, that was my that was my first thought. Now what I didn't know at the time was that the two battalion cars were the only MDTs that showed that pool. we were running the newest version of the CAD map. And the other units were not running that newest version. So I had that information. again, I didn't know that. I just knew I saw a pool and I wanted to to take advantage of it.

speaker-1: So speaking about water supply, I know that again reading the report and talking to you before is that the water supply planning, you had to get more involved in that on this one bec like more than usual.

speaker-0: Yes, because the first in officer did not consider his water supply. and really neither did the second do officer, engine officer. they both went in dry. and when I, you know, realized that, okay, I had the pool, that was my primary. When I started looking at my secondary, you know, I knew I had a hydrant out on the main street, but it was gonna be you know, gonna be at least a a relay situation. and it was that it was it was having to deal and give instructions for units coming in to get that secondary water supply set up from the hydrant that kind of distracted me from watching and listening. I had to take my focus off of the attack to deal with this water supply because the first engine in had not laid a line. The second one and second one you know didn't come in the neighborhood dropping a line and therefore it was units coming on when we upgraded to a box assignment. It was those engines, you know, coming in that I had to direct to where that hydrant was and for them to get get a line laid in woodscape from Guildford to establish that secondary water.

speaker-1: Do you think there was any time where you heard something but it wasn't the right tr it it wasn't the right interpretation?

speaker-0: yeah. Yeah. and and there's in the audio there is Because I did not know that the terror that Charlie's side was terraced, because I did not know that we had two levels of entrance, and because I did not know that they had made an early entry into that mud room, laundry room off the garage, that was never shared with me. So when The one engine officer, engine one one, reported that they had to go back to the initial entrance. Yeah. That that totally and and I I I questioned trying to get from her. well, what do you mean? Do you mean the in what's the what's the initial entrance? Do you mean the alpha side? and there was an exchange. and and that's when actually another unit, you know, tried to try to tell me, you know, that they were in on the first floor, but that didn't, because I didn't know of that split, I'm I'm thinking that they're in the basement level. Yeah.

speaker-1: Yeah.

speaker-0: So when when they and initially that's where they were going, or I shouldn't say initially, that's where they were going under my direction. But then when Spire when fire was spotted and told 101 to get water on it from the outside, you know, I I didn't realize they had to position back up. You know, I'm thinking Charlie's side and you know, basement access. I didn't realize that they had to go back up because no one had ever ex explained that to me, and I did not. You know, I'm looking at a two-dimensional image on the MDT, and the only picture that I saw of the Charlie side was, you know, where the basement sliders were. I never saw that the garage and that terrace. so when that message came across and and you know, that you know 101 and 51 were in On the first floor that couldn't That couldn't I I I couldn't process that. I couldn't you know

speaker-1: So what the so initially like they fifty one arrived first and their initial plan was to go in the alpha side.

speaker-0: Yes, that's where they were starting. That's where they were starting. They had stopped and actually they had pulled a hand line, and that's when I told them, position so you can use that pool. So they basically went on around the Bravo side onto Charlie and nosed down into the the parking area where they could get closest to the pool. And I think Firefighter just drugged the line, you know, around with them. and You know, then they said they you know, they had the homeowner and the homeowner said most of the smoke was in the basement. They were making access from side Charlie.

speaker-1: I gotcha. But they they went in a first floor entrance on the Charlie side, which took into that laundry area. Yep. But then finding no fire they came out.

speaker-0: Yes, and and they did they did recognize high heat and they backed out of there and then that's when they relocated down to the lower level where the the truck company officer was directing them down there and they had made a non destructive entry on that door so they could close it and control the flow path, and they had a basement full of smoke, and that's where I thought they were going in. That's where the truck company officer wanted to take them in. And then when fire was spotted back up top, they they relocated. And in that relocating, or in that process of relocating, I didn't know that they went back up to the first level.

speaker-1: so so so you were still thinking they were in the basement?

speaker-0: Yes. Yep. 'Cause matter of fact, when the May Day came in, I even said to my aide, What is there? A sub basement? How could they go through the floor? They're already in the basement. I sent the aide to find the homeowner to determine if there was a wine cellar or a theater or something that would be a sub-level. Because in my in my mind and in on my tracking sheet. They were in the basement.

speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, but then they had repositioned back up to the mud room and made entry. In fact then we had two lines two lines going in there, right? Or was it just the one line going in?

speaker-0: I I think it was initially the one line and then as as the May Day came out, then the second line was either in the process of going in or immediately went in to try to assist that first crew.

speaker-1: So with before the May Day come in, did you did you feel any time distortion? Did you feel like there was a a gap where it was slow, it was going too slow or it was going too fast?

speaker-0: No I I didn't I think there was so much coming at me prior to the May Day that I always had something to deal with and I always had something that needed my attention. So I wouldn't say that, you know, that that time went by. I was I was cognizant of the fact of, hey, we've been here, we've been here, you know, fifteen, twenty minutes, and you know, why aren't we, you know? Why aren't we getting this? Why aren't we finding this? But once again, from what I'm thinking, you've told me there's smoke in the basement. So it's just a matter of getting in that basement and locating the fire. And I had in in my mind the the truck crew was going to lead the engine crew to the fire in the basement. I had that much confidence in my truck company officer and his crew. And I thought, you know, hey, you you've given me multiple reports that there's smoke in the basement. and you know, that's where we're gonna go in.

speaker-1: And you've you may access the basement. You're in the basement. You have smoke in the basement. So it should just be a matter of seconds before you have water on the fi Yeah. So that was you think there was a ta a tactical gap in that in that message there. They were they knew they were on the first floor, but you didn't.

speaker-0: And and they weren't th they weren't. They were initially in the basement. But when when one one's crew got report of fire showing from that breakfast nook area, which was up on that that first floor, when they got a report of fire showing, it's like okay, it showed itself, all right, but my goal was to knock it down. Buy my crews some more time. That's why I wanted that reset. I wanted to get water on it from the outside. And my backup line. Okay. Move my backup line up. Get water on it from the outside. Knock it down. And meanwhile, the crews in the basement are gonna get to the seat of this thing in no time. Right.

speaker-1: But especially you had to have some comfort too that the occupants were all accounted for. Right. So they're all accounted for

speaker-0: Yes.

speaker-1: the urgency the urgency

speaker-0: Yeah, that was something that I communicated early on once we verified it. Now I think I know that my aide had specifically accounted for the occupants in his in his three sixty. That was one of the things he did. He talked to the owner and he confirmed for a second time that, hey, it was occupied by three. They are all out and accounted for. When he gave me that, his specific purpose, doing his three sixty and bringing information back to me. When he told me, hey, you know, all three are accounted for, you know, we've got an all clear. that I communicated that to the other units because that's when I was comfortable with it. you know, communications may tell you everybody's out. fifty-one and I and of course I haven't looked back at the report, fifty-one may have even said everyone's out, but They also said most of the smoke's in the basement and they were making access on side Charlie. But my aide, you know, that's the information that I'm you know, I'm gonna put, you know, great credence in. and once he delivered that to me, then I communicated to everybody else, hey, we are all clear times three, we are all clear. because then I had other units, you know, coming in and I I didn't want, you know. I didn't want somebody to you know start trying to make entry above fire or start trying to search for somebody that we don't need to search for. we'll we'll take care of that, but let's find fire first.

speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, no, I think but that gives you especially knowing that the aide who's your extension of you, right? So that that that person that person knows what you're thinking and and once you get that, yeah, you'd be like, wow, okay.

speaker-0: Yep. And that's you know, the way we used our aides at the time, our aides were firefighters that were lieutenant eligible. So they were they were firefighters who were in the process of becoming lieutenants, waiting to be promoted. and as such, I used that aid position as a mentorship and training position. And I mean we We practiced size ups and we talked tactics every day. and you know, as you said, he was an extension of me. We had it wasn't like this was just a firefighter given to me for the day. No, that was my full-time aide. And you know, we worked on these things. And you know, we had our communication down. He knew what I wanted, he knew what I expected. and you know One of the things that I had drilled into my AIDS was accounting for the occupants. and there was a There was a video that is it Rick Rick Martin or Nick Martin that came from Kentland? he

speaker-1: yeah.

speaker-0: had a video out one of Kentland's fires that he filmed. And when they came down the street, the occupants were standing across the street in like one sock and a nightgown, and units totally just blew past them. And I always used that video with my aides saying, Hey, look. When you make your 360, when you get out of this car, I want you to look up and down the street. I want you to, you know, don't stop. But if you're going past somebody, yell at do you live here? Is this your house? Is everybody out? If you can give me an accountability for the occupants, then we can take a breath. We can slow down just a little bit. Doesn't mean we're not gonna search. But we're gonna search when it's time to search just to make sure because it's not an all clear till we say it's an all clear. But I don't have to have people running in ahead of hose lines and over the fire or anything else if I've got an all clear. And you know, that was that was something that he and I had worked on and you know, as as had all my aides, I had several during the course of time I was in battalion one. they all kept getting promoted. they were all good, sharp people. And you know, I was I really felt that that that aid position was just such a good opportunity for them to learn as company officers. They've now had some experience in the battalion car. They know what the battalion is thinking. They you know they know how things come together. so when they are then company officers, they they they have an idea of what the other side of the radio is like.

speaker-1: They know what you're looking for, so they they give you that report. You don't have to say what'd you say? Because they know what the chief wants to hear.

speaker-0: Yeah. Something that I had learned from Chief Sean Uts, who was a battalion here in the county, when I transitioned from a staff assignment in the fire marshal's office back to field operations, I did a lot of ride-alongs with Sean. And you know, I said, Hey, you know, kinda Bring me back up to speed. How do you use your aid? You know, how are we operating in the field as a battalion? and he was the one that he and his aide, his aide would take pictures on his phone and bring them back to the car and show him. That's where I learned that whole thing. And that night at Woodscape, Brian, my aide, you know, he did. He took a picture from the rear and brought it back to me. So that that picture in my mind. Which was the main house and it had that lower basement level and then the first floor and then and then the second. but that picture didn't encompass the garage and mud room that were up on that upper level.

speaker-1: Okay, okay. I see. So so you got a picture from the rear but not the total rear because the place was so big you weren't gonna get it in one shot.

speaker-0: Again, you know, to to Brian's defense, you know, it looked like a garage. You know, okay, there's an attached garage over here, but the house, I'm taking a picture of the house. And that's what that's what he brought me and that's what he described to me. and you know, he was he was right on with his assessment of the house, and that's what I went with.

speaker-1: No, and and that was that that was yeah, there was something missing there. Right? The tac the tactical gap that was there. but they were they w they knew what they were doing in the rear. It just didn't trans translate to to command post. So let's move on to the rescue. the May Day came in.

speaker-0: Did you?

speaker-1: You commanded the the fire and the and the rescue, right?

speaker-0: Yes, in essence, I had I had another just before the May Day came out, the other battalion chief had arrived, and I gave him the gave him the Charlie side. And but by the time it took him to get his gear on and get around to the rear, just about the time he got there is when the May Day came out. So he had not had a chance to get back there yet. I had told him when I gave him the the division, I had told him what units he had back there. But he hadn't had a chance to get a hold of that. Now What did happen on the rear was my safety officer, good strong veteran captain, he realized there was so much going on around back, and then when the May Day came out, he basically he had control of that Charlie side and the units that were back there in the ensuing, I'll use the word chaos, Because, you know, when the May Day was called, there was just the three companies back there. And then as we deployed Ritt and as other companies arrived, and like I said, the the other battalion, battalion two, he was just getting around there. So the safety officer was able to tell that battalion chief, Hey, look, here's who you have, here's what's going on. he was basically able to give him A transition of who was where. Of course, that was face to face. So I didn't know that until, you know, until later, until into the the documentation of the incident and and conversations with him over the years, you know, afterwards. but there was one spot in the audio where battalion two said, I don't know who I got back here. And that really aggravated that safety captain because he said he knew exactly who he had back there and he was trying to tell that battalion, this is who you've got. but I think you know, just the fact of as that chief got around to the back once the May Day hit, it was just he was he was behind the eight ball already. He hadn't had a chance to really acclimate himself or gather his troops in. and it just he was purely reactionary at that point.

speaker-1: So so planning or or managing that Mayday part of it, that's that was on you in the in the command post.

speaker-0: Yes.

speaker-1: And and you got some good information, right, from on on who was making in who the writ team was. I know you had assigned some companies to be the writ, or at least to be on deck, and then the Mayday.

speaker-0: And again, we g we go back to that that conversation we had about about the water supply. and it was engine seventy-one that was, you know, they were they were go-getters, they were a good strong company, they had actually, I think they had kind of jumped ahead of dispatch when they heard us go on the scene with With you know with the work and fire, I think they went ahead and started loading up. So they were coming up the road, you know, quick. And they were the ones that I was communicating to to get that water supply set up. Once they did that, 71 and truck seven are quartered together, good good tenured experience shift. And I assigned the Truck Rit. And I told the engine to stage, go on deck on the alpha side, because I was thinking, you know, as soon as we get water on this fire in the basement and see what we got, then we the next step will be getting in on the first floor. And I'll have 71 ready to do that. and then as as the May Day came out, and I'm like, no, wait a minute. You know what? I don't need them on deck. 71 Go with Truck Seven, double ripped company. and that's when they actually split up. Truck Seven went around one way, 71 went the other, and met in the in the rear and formulated their plan. but you know, that was that was a matter of seconds between me telling 71 to go on deck on the alpha side and then the May Day and then I'm gonna answer the May Day and hey, truck seven, deploy seventy one, go with truck seven. and you know, that was one of the things that that and I don't remember whether I talked with you about it the last time or not, but Our department's tactical worksheet had our Mayday worksheet on the back. And I never liked that. I didn't want to not look at my worksheet, have to flip it over to see the Mayday worksheet. So I always printed them separately. And on my clipboard, I had my tracking sheet, and then directly underneath it, I had a Mayday worksheet. And I had I had practiced answering Maydays. I don't know, a couple years before that we had had an acquired structure that we did some nighttime training in. all the companies rotated through, and you know, even though the scenario was the same every time, I sat in the car with a tracking sheet every time that those companies went through. I answered that May Day the same way every time. I documented on my tracking sheet the same way every time. and and I I credit that repetition and that muscle memory with how I answered the May Day that night. and I had always I'd always told my companies when we were doing that training and in other times after that that you know what. If you call a Mayday, I want you to know that I hear you. you may only have a couple of seconds to get information out to me. I am not going to waste time by asking for a emergency tone or telling anybody else. No, if a company or a person is calling a Mayday, I want to answer them. I'll take care of the rest of the stuff after that, but I want to answer them. And that's what I did in that training. I answered the May Day every time. So when it came out that night, that was my natural reaction. I'm gonna answer this. You know, the other units, yes. I know there are units close by. They're all hearing the same radio that I'm hearing. They're aware of it, but let me answer that May Day. and as a result, I took several steps before I looked at that made a checklist. That to me was not a cheat sheet to use up front. That was a a check sheet, a ch a system of checks and balances to make sure I didn't miss anything. So I I made my first half a dozen or so steps. And then when I had the chance, when I had took breath, then I took my maid aid sheet out and laid it separately and then started to go down through it and make sure that I had covered those bases that the geo or the order and the the sheet called for me to do. and you know it it was again it was that muscle memory. Yeah.

speaker-1: So th there's different than than commanding a fire, right? You you do that because of the muscle memory and and you're ready for for all those things because of the practice that you put in, the time ahe before the

speaker-0: Even the tracking sheet. My tracking sheet or the department's tracking sheet, I used it the same way every time. And I I pulled it and I started one once again by having an aid. I didn't have to worry about driving. So as soon as we were dispatched on a call, first thing came out was my clipboard. Yeah. I've got my MDT in front of me. I know what units are coming. And and I always did things the same way on my tracking sheet. you know, the the first end company, their initial radio report always went across the top of my tracking sheet. As they said it, I wrote it down so I could refer back to it later. I used different symbols, you know. I'm I'm big on drawing. I I always tell you know officers that hey, if you're gonna command something, Don't make notes. Don't you know, you need to have something to look at because when shit hits the fan, you don't have time to read back down through your notes and see where you sent engine ninety-one. No, you look at your drawing. ninety-one's in in, you know, in quadrant three. so I was always big on drawing and I I did things and and again, my aides, I always taught my AIDS what my method of tracking was. So that, you know. If I keeled over, they could take my tracking sheet and they could keep the incident going or they could transition to another chief officer and say, Hey, this is what he had going on. But gas leaks, fire alarms, no matter what I was running, I did that tracking sheet every time and I did it the same way. And again, I think it was that muscle memory that, you know, I'm not looking around for information. Boom, I I knew. where I put things and I knew how I had it recorded and you know.

speaker-1: Yeah, I think that that's one thing that again, when you were a company officer or a a firefighter on the back step, you set your gear up the same way every time. So it it just it just can't it just makes sense that as you transition to a different job, there's things that are gonna be automatics because of stress, right? We have to reduce the stress. If I have to worry about getting my gear on, I can't worry about what the information that they gave me is. If you have to worry about finding the sheet, you can't worry about who's going what the information

speaker-0: That was one of the first things I would do in the morning when I went on shift is, you know, my clipboard got set up, and my MDT got set up the right way that I wanted it. I had an iPad that I used for other inf if I needed to go to Google or something. and then I had a little little resource book that I carried that was just the things that weren't readily available. Like the the legend for the MDT map, what different colors and stuff meant. you know, I had that in my little resource book. and some of the other some of the other battalions and and even some of the aides that I had used to tease me about my pencils. And the glove box, when I would set my cab up in the morning, I opened the glove box. The glove box always rode open because there was a handful of Of freshly sharpened pencils in that glove box. You know, what happens when a pencil starts to get dull, the lines get real wide, and you can't read it. But when you've got a sharp pencil, you know, you can read and you can make good notes. And I never wanted to run out of pencils. So I always had a, you know, it was a whole handful with rubber band around They were laying in that glove box, all freshly sharpened. And, you know, If I'm writing and my pencil starts to get dull, I throw it down the floor and grab a new one and keep on keep on writing. and I always had a legal pad that if I filled up my tracking sheet and you know, I always did my my little status reports and my assignments across the bottom. If I filled up my tracking sheet, then okay, boom, here's my legal pad. Now I'm over onto my legal pad, but I've still got my picture. And everything in front of me. They're both laying laying on my lap. and, you know, it was just those little things that, as you said, reduce the stress and just, you know, you know where you're reaching for things and you know where things are. I can't say enough about that for, you know, and and I still, you know, when when people are newly promoted or transitioning into a battalion car, you know, I I tell some of those same things that, you know. the the more things you can take out of the equation, the more variables you can address in your little office. you know

speaker-1: That's one less yeah, that's your heart be your heart your heart rate will decrease one beat, right? I mean, if we could correspond that, we could we could get keep our our our instant commanders to stay calm. So thinking about the May Day, I know yours was twenty two minutes, but by the time the May Day was called and they were able to extricate Nate from the basement, most of our Maydays, you know, are are seconds or th they're they're very rarely that long. Did you have to manage companies going in and out or I I know that the that company Sevens, like they were gonna they were gonna finish this job. They were gonna finish the mission. But did you have other companies standing by? Did you build a manpower pool or a a staging?

speaker-0: I built a second, a n a number two writ, writ number two, because you know, I was always taught, hey, you deploy one writ, well, that's great, but what if they get in trouble? and you know, a lot of units were starting to arrive. Yes, I was giving some assignments, but my biggest thing I saw which we use a color code system on helmets. Captains are red, lieutenants are blue. and I saw two very familiar, very seasoned red helmets coming across that yard. two great captains. and I I grabbed them. and said you're two companies, you're together, you are writ number two. So start making your plans. and there was another company that While the May Day while the the the writ operation was underway, we had for just a sh brief period of time, we had another firefighter unaccounted for. and I was trying to manage that. when when they did get one-on-one's officer, when they got the lieutenant out you know, trying to care for her. And there was a company, one of the later arriving truck companies. the lieutenant had actually walked up to my window and he heard them talking about they needed EMS, they had somebody hurt, and he said, Chief, I've got that taken care of for you. And he just took his company and he went and rendered aid, whatever they took. they dealt with the lieutenant and then somebody else that was injured. but you know, he he hey, he said, you know, everybody else is trying to get in, but he knew that I had a need and without having to figure out who could you know, he was right there. He's like, Hey, I got that for you, Chief. And boom, he he went and and took care of it. But there was there were several things that transpired after I deployed the writ that kind of kept me busy, so to speak. And like I said, there was, you know, there was a a firefighter that was hurt. There was a firefighter that was unaccounted for. and it wasn't that that firefighter had fallen or anything. It was just that, you know, that you know that company, they had one member, you know, unaccounted for and in the in the confusion on the Charlie side. It took him a couple minutes to figure that out. so those were the kind of things and and again I was trying to to think ahead. I had called for additional an additional alarm. I was thinking about, you know, getting EMS and there was I had already sent the EMS officer toward the back and that's when the Charlie Division said, Hey, we're gonna need a medic unit back here and I don't even I just looked through the windshield and looked at the EMS captain and he just gave me a thumbs up that, you know, hey, he didn't need to talk on the radio. He just told me, hey, I got that handled. to me it didn't seem like twenty two minutes, you know, went by. I mean, there was there was just so many different pieces. And and we were still you know, we were still keeping a keeping water on the fire, and but it it just I would say if anything, it just seemed like that time just, you know, flew by while they were in there.

speaker-1: You think that the the other companies exercise some good radio discipline to not not cl not you know, clog up the radio with transmissions?

speaker-0: Yeah, I I think so for the for the most part. I don't remember ever, you know, being a time where, you know, I wanted to get something out and couldn't. you know, there was that was one thing that I had I had always tried to work on myself was letting the companies work and not you know, not asking them, you know every three minutes for, you know, some kind of information. No, I've given you a task. you know, get it done and tell me when you you need something else. but i I I think I I don't I don't recall being frustrated with radio traffic or you know

speaker-1: You didn't think there was a need for a second radio channel?

speaker-0: No, no, I didn't. and and that was one thing that I had I had always, you know felt that okay, if you you know, if you've got a a a a If you've got a large incident, if you've got a lot of necessary radio traffic, and if you're gonna be a while, yeah, you might want to get a second channel, but you know, once again, you know, it it's your hope that, you know, when you when you deploy that writ, that hey, in just you know, in just a couple of minutes we're gonna be, you know, getting some good information back. We're gonna be getting a good outcome here. And again, it it didn't it didn't seem like 22 minutes you know for me because there was always something going on. and again I I was always you know trying to maintain a positive you know outlook that hey this is gonna be okay. but but no I did not at that point think about a second channel. now once I got if I'd had somebody else, you know, if we'd had that that third arriving chief or something that I could transition to and say, hey, you know, take these units, take the fire ground, you know, where we are, but I never I never had that. you know all I had was you know, myself and that second battalion and it just wasn't, you know, if anything, he was in the better position to manage the rescue operation from where he was on side Charlie, but he was like I said, just never able to catch up because of you know, he he walked into behind the eight ball and so Yeah, right.

speaker-1: The fire fight itself, right? Again, you have the the rescue of Nate from the from the Charlie side. Was the fire fight was that centered around the rear also, or was that alpha side?

speaker-0: side. No, that was all there was nothing on the alpha side. Everything was was centered on Charlie. And then as soon as and it was my it was my intention that as soon as we got Nate out of there, then it was a you know, it was a gonna transition to defensive and you know I I was not sending anybody else back in there. So as soon as I got that, then it was okay, boom, evacuate and I want to par as quick as possible. Yeah. Shortly after that, when we did get some additional resources on scene, and I was relieved, you know, they did continue on after we left the scene, they did continue on with a defensive operation for a number of hours and because of the size of that house and the void spaces and everything else, they you know just a abundance of units and operations and stuff went on once we left to go to the hospital. But and I remember getting back out to the street And walking down the street, just fire engine after fire engine after fire engine, just parked down down Woodscape from these additional alarms and you know, it just seemed like am I ever gonna get to the end of these of these fire engines?

speaker-1: any any other stress things that you can think of that that caused you trouble on as the c as the incident commander? Was there anything that stuff stood out?

speaker-0: No, not at the time. you know, later on once once I was able to learn more or once I got more puzzle places in in in place, so to speak, after that, there was some things that I was aggravated about or things that stressed me. but during the incident, No, I don't recall. I I believe you know, I was getting I was getting information when I wanted it. and and I thought I was getting, you know, what I needed. Yeah. There was a delay with that hydraulic pump in the pool that they didn't tell me about. I thought they had water running and they didn't yet. There was at one point when I confirmed with the first due medic unit that they had the two out function, the IRIC function, and the driver who I could see in gear, throwing ladders, just you know, doing a great job. he confirmed they had the IRIC. But what I didn't know at the time. was that he was by himself. That the medic was helping in the rear with the pump. That that's what their shift had agreed on that you know the medic would help with the hydraulic pump. So the medic didn't have gear on, the medic wasn't ready to be part of an IRIC. Again, I never knew that. I I asked the question to confirm and I got, yep, we got IRIC. But it was only one person.

speaker-1: Did you experience any physiological reactions? even after after, you know, Nate was out? did you you know, did you need to get away? was there a a reaction just of the the stress was so much?

speaker-0: No, and again, not immediately, because again, I think I had so much to function on. and you know I I have said many times since that the memories I have of Nate were prior to that night. You know, the the memories of him at station ten, on calls, you know, his his ball cap, his helmet. You know, I always those were the memories because I didn't I didn't see Nate that night. Now I I remember very vividly the cot, you know. Crew and bringing the cot up across from the Charlie side, up across D, heading toward the transport unit. but and at one point, I guess just before that, go back to my safety officer. he at one point came to the came to me and he said, it's bad. It's really bad. But just keep doing what you're doing. And I I literally looked at him and said, What the fuck do you mean, keep doing what I'm doing? And he said, just keep doing what you're doing. And he left. And later on he told me, he said, look, he said, you know, you you were you were staying calm and you were keeping all of us calm. And I wanted you just to keep, keep doing that. Just keep taking care of things and just keep talking, you know, talking through it. that reaction to him probably wasn't or probably was a little bit of a stress reaction. but I don't recall anything until I was relieved which my ops deputy had gotten there and he said Chuck he said just just keep keep going as soon as I get Sean here I'm gonna, you know, do a tactical pause and we're going to relieve you and Sean will take over for you. And there's two Sean's, two battalions that are named Sean. And I'm thinking that it's one Sean who's coming from like an hour and a half away, and he was talking about the other Sean that lived within the county. and I remember thinking, Man, you know, I gotta wait till you know Sean gets here. But once I was relieved, I for whatever reason, I took my water bottle and my iPad that were there at the base of my seat, and I took them and my aide came up to me. I can remember we were standing at the back of the battalion car, and he said, Here, I've got Nate's pat tag. What do I do with it? He had taken it off of the command board and I said give it to me. I said, Nate's gone to the hospital, his tag's going to the hospital. And I put that tag in my pocket. And before I left, the deputy told me, said, Hey, said Chief Rund is in charge at the hospital. Report to her when you get there. Okay. And I'm gonna go down and get on the the ambulance bus with the crews from seven and ten and we're gonna to the hospital. And I got down to the street, and like I said, the all fire engines parked everywhere, and I I just I just wanted to talk to my wife. and I pulled over onto the tailboard of some engine, I don't even know whose it was, and took my phone out and called my wife and you know, I I just wanted to hear her voice and you know just you know, real quick, you know, told her what had happened and and then I just kinda You know, I got on the bus with the rest of the guys and girls and I I just remember riding to the hospital just staring at the floor, just, you know, trying to process the magnitude of what had just happened. And you know, I wouldn't say that I really had a a reaction other than that, until several hours later that afternoon. when we got back to firehouse after going to the medical examiner's office and everything and got back to station ten and you know I I'm a man of faith and I I wanted to pray but I couldn't even formulate thoughts of prayer in my in my head. and guy came up to me that had been my aide previously And Kevin and I had had prayed together on numerous occasions when we worked together and he came up and he said, You know, Chief, what do you need? Can I do anything for ya? And I said, Kevin, I I can't even pray right now. And he said, I gotcha, I gotcha. And I just kind of buried my head in Kevin's shoulder and Yeah, I I I cried just a little bit. and Kevin prayed for us and then I I kinda put myself back together and you know, started dealing with other things that were but I've I've always appreciated Kevin for that for that moment and I think that was kinda the the first time that I really, you know, kinda let it out or let myself open up a little bit. Yeah. And then I think the biggest the biggest response was about twenty four hours later when I had gotten home that afternoon, was able to, you know, eat a little something, get cleaned up, got a little bit of sleep, And the next day my phone's just blowing up. everybody's texting me, calling me, hey, if you need something, hey, if you want to talk, hey, I'm here for you, thinking about ya, all that kind of stuff. and I just felt like And nobody else in my department at that point had experienced what I just experienced. I didn't feel like anybody understood. and that was the point at which I reached out to Matt Tobia and I said, Hey, can you can you connect me to somebody that has walked this road before? Because I don't I don't feel like I can talk to anybody. I don't feel like anybody understands. and within an hour, I was on the phone with Randy McGregor from Bryan, Texas. and he he walked me through probably the first seven to ten days post incident. and you know, I I just I will always owe a debt to Matt Tobia and Randy McGregor and others, but just talking to Randy and he had lost two on Valentine's Day just a couple of years before, but even then it was not a year post incident. the incident was in July. It was June of twenty nineteen that I was invited to go to an IC to I C group with National Fallen Firefighters. And actually ended up becoming very close with Joe Dan from Bryan, who was actually the battalion. Randy was the fire chief, but Joe Dan was the battalion of that incident. and Steve Schaefer from Boston and just you know numerous that group still today, you know, we all are in touch with each other, talking with each other, and in in June of nineteen, the first time that I talked through the incident with them, you know, that was that was pretty emotional and that was very therapeutic, very healing, but that was rough. i and the first couple of times that I had to talk about it, all rough. but I would say and and that's probably a lot more information than you wanted, but that that was really th those those visceral reactions were delayed. They weren't you know, they weren't immediately at the incident, they weren't right away afterwards, you know, they were, you know, several hours later and then several days later. and you know, if it wouldn't have been for people like Matt and Randy and there was one of our peer support team that just was a huge help to me. And then just the members of my shift. Yeah, yeah. I didn't know we would have been due back on shift Wednesday morning and come Tuesday, I didn't know whether I was supposed to go back to work or what. but it was when I came back to work and the shift rallied around me and you know that's when I you know I I I felt the most love and support, you know, from them and you know, hey we're we we experienced this incident together and we're gonna get through it together and you know, there was a I don't I don't think that

speaker-1: It sounds like like one of the things that helped was was staying busy. You were pretty busy there the the first day, so that kept your kept you going, kept you moving, kept your mind off of sitting still. And then obviously the loved one in your life that helps when you talk to them. Yep. The F Triple F has done a great job with that I C to I C and Fighter Chief to Fighter Chief program on that they put those put you guys in touch with each other and Matt Matt's a great resource too. So that's I know that the Rit team had a had a challenge to get to him and get him out. But any other thing that that struck you as as difficult to manage or something that that your experience helped others

speaker-0: We talked earlier about the fact of I couldn't see that Charlie side. And whenever you can't see something, you you it always brings you a level of stress because you're trying to figure out. You're trying to paint the picture in your mind of what's going on when you can't see it. and I had always I'd always asked my aides, hey, just, you know, give me a good command view. I don't I don't care if you gotta jump a curb, I don't care if you drive across grass. This is a truck. Take it where you need to to take it. but that night, even though, you know, Brian thought he was giving me a good view, and I thought I would have a good view, but when it all ended up on the trolley side, just not being able, to to visualize that end. I think for some people, the tendency might be to get out of the car and go where they can see. I am a firm believer in command from the car. that's why you've got other people to be your eyes and ears. you know, as soon as you step out of that bubble. then you may miss something that you don't hear because of fire ground noise and you don't hear it, or you you don't, you know, you don't have your tracking sheet to look at, or you get sucked into something else. you become part of the problem. so I I would just again, I I'm a firm believer in that bubble and you can control the windows, you can keep everything out, you can see, you can hear, fight that instinct to want to go be part or to wanna go, you know, pick it up and do it yourself or go see for yourself. No, I I believe that as an incident commander, you've got a responsibility to everybody that's assigned to that incident. And the best way that you can manage everybody is to to stay in that car, to stay in command where you're supposed to be in command. and you know, I mean I think that kind of you know equates to, you know, an instant commander leaving their command post or leaving their bubble, I think basically equates to freelancing. because that's not, you know, your job isn't over there or over there. Your job is here. looking at the big picture, taking care of everybody. so that that, you know, and you know going back to to what we said earlier you know about answering the May Day and that kind of thing, it didn't occur to me until I guess two years ago we were having Nate Flynn training day and they asked me to come up and participate as a a facilitator instructor, they wanted to give firefighters the opportunity to sit in the command seat and handle a Mayday from that end. So I was sitting in a command car in the driver's seat and these firefighters there was a a rescue scenario that was going on and they would participate in the rescue scenario and then Before they went to another physical scenario, they would rotate in to the battalion car. And so many of them had never had never thought about that. They had never thought about being in that command spot. and what I started explaining to them was when you have that May Day, it's kind of like a target. It's kind of like a bullseye. You know, you you're you got to focus on that. That's center. That's your that's your firefighter Mayday. You deal with them first. And then the second ring is, you know, the people around them, the companies around them. Make sure they know. And then the third ring is the writ team that you're deploying. And then once everybody on the fire ground knows, then your fourth ring is the rest of the world. The fourth ring is the additional alarms, it's the notification, it's the this, that, and the other. But Hey, you focus. The most important person is that Mayday. That bullseye is the Mayday. And you take care of that. And then the closest things to him and the closest and the closest. and and I actually ended up drawing that, you know, on a couple of of tracking sheets. And after I did that, it kind of made sense to me and it seemed to make sense to the students. So I kind of, you know, just you know, offer that up as a little, you know, analogy of handling that May Day. so

speaker-1: Good stuff. I I think that's that's covered everything that I wanted to. Okay. I mean I got you got w some of the things that we're we want to we want to emphasize is again the the routine, right? Getting your stress reduce your stress with routine, using the command board. So many people haven't don't haven't done that. So that that was good. We can definitely use that. the Mayday information, the lack of the tactical gaps that you found in the the front to rear, like getting the information from the Charlie side to the command post and the gaps in that and the Mayday I I like I like the the again the doing everything the the same way, like you're you're training ahead of time. You're you're yourself you're you're You you felt the need to train on May Days before having one. So those things are all gonna help us in our class.

speaker-0: And it wasn't just May Day, it was training on the things that you don't want to train on. You know, when we had all those scenarios, you know, okay, we all, no matter how many years you have on the job or what your rank is, we all like to put our gear on and, you know, remember the good old days and you know, participate. And it would have been so easy with that same scenario every time. I could've put in my gear I could have put my gear on and you know, I could have go, you know, I could act it as a company officer or something. But why? That's not my job. That's not as much as I would have liked to have done it, I needed to train on my job. And did I want to train on answering a May Day? No, that wasn't the fun thing to do, but that's what I felt I needed to do for my people. Right. And and again, I'm, you know. I'm I'm glad that I did spend those nights doing that because when that May Day came in, it was it stressful? Yeah, sure it was stressful, but it wasn't a surprise. It wasn't, you know, I I wasn't overtaken by just, you know, a wave of of terror. okay, I'm gonna answer this. And you know, yes, the officer that called the May Day, you know, I knew that wasn't. Her normal voice. I mean, I knew I could hear the angst and the terror in her voice, but I, you know, I had to maintain. and you know, for several weeks, months after the incident, people would say to me, you did a good job, man, you did a great job. And I'll be like, No, no, I didn't bring Nate home. Don't say that to me. It took me a long time to be able to realize that what people were saying to me was that, hey, you you stayed calm. Your voice never changed. You weren't yelling and freaking out on the radio. And even the lieutenant Burchak from the engine you know on the writ team, you know, he told me afterwards. He said, Hey, he said, Man, we were in there and you know, my nozzleman was all Tied up in wires and and and he said, you know, he just looked at me as as cool as could be and said, Dude, I'm tied up in wires. And I took my cutters out and I started cutting and I cut him free. And he said, You were talking to us. You were keeping us calm because your voice wasn't freaking out. So then my voice didn't freak out with the nozzle one, and the nozzle one didn't freak out. Yeah. and the safety officer. That's what he was trying to tell me all along. Was, hey, you know, you're doing a good job. You're you're staying calm and you're keeping them calm. and, you know, it it took me a long while to be able to accept that of myself. That, you know, yes, I didn't bring Nate home, but I I did the best that I could for him and I you know I was able to stay calm and my voice was able to stay even and I didn't freak out and you know so you know eventually you know eventually it did start to register that it's okay. It's it's okay yeah to say that I I did a good job as an incident commander. I did what I was supposed to do to lead my people.

speaker-1: All right, we got some really good insight in that, from from Chief Ridgeley there about the the woodscape fire and what they were faced with. he I think he ra remained remarkably calm during the whole incident. I I don't know if if I would have been able to to contain myself, right? sitting in a car on the other side and and and hearing all this stuff. But that's exactly what his training and his preparation let him found him in the best space, right? He was in the best position to help to help get Nate out and give him the best chance for survival. so I mean he was it was really a great example of of c command and control, I believe, that Chuck showed in that incident. with that, let's talk a little bit about some of the things that we face. And this can kinda go for both incident commanders and firefighters, right? What can we what can we do to hopefully combat some of the stresses that we might find in a firefight? With that, command officer impact. Some of the things that the command officer and even really, I mean, incident commanders, you may find yourself in these same company officers might find yourself with these same things. Auditory exclusion. I know as a as a company officer, you know, operating with my crew on the internet inside of a burning building, I don't purposeful purposefully exclude listening to the radio. I just can't do everything. So there is that level of auditory exclusion. But there's also, you know, again, I'm I'm focusing on that. Is that a matter of me being too task saturated? Is that a matter of me my heart rate being so so high that now right that that I I'd I lose those I lose that that capability. But because let me go back here. One thing I I forgot to talk about was if you look on the left here of of our graphic, there's a chart that kind of talks about as your heart rate increases, some of the things that your body responds, how it responds. at the sixty beat per minute level of your heart rate, that's a normal heart normal resting heart rate, right? Some of us might be resting a little bit higher, a little bit lower. But that's your normal resting heart rate. As we get up to ninety beats per minute, we start to lose lose those fine motor skills. Or they start to deteriorate, right? And those are like the the hands, right? Picking up picking up a penny might be tough with your gloves on, as you as your heart rate starts to start to increase. That's why I think the whole the whole argument about smooth b about smooth and fog, this is where we start to lose that stuff, right? At at some point as we start as our heart rate starts to increase, just open the damn nozzle. I shouldn't also have to worry about what pattern it's on. But that's another that's a story of another day. As we get up to a hundred and twenty beats per minute, some of the complex motor skills start to deteriorate. as we have we gotten our heart rates to a hundred and twenty on a fire? Absolutely. As we get to a hundred and fifty, our cognitive processing deteriorates, right? We can't We start our decision making now starts to become deteriorated, starts to be impacted. We get tunnel vision, right? We start to lose that peripheral vision and we start to get tunnel vision. We get the loss of depth perception, and then the auditory exclusion starts to come in. As we get even higher, a hundred and seventy five beats per minute, a rational fight or flee response. We we get that freezing response where you just don't do anything. Submissive behavior, you just give in. And then the voiding of a bladder and bow. This is why if you if you read some of that on combat stuff, they talk about guys before they go into that combat mission, they'll go to the bathroom before they go out and get deployed. Because of that, they know they're gonna get to the black. They know their heart rate's gonna get to the black. So they have to then figure that out, right? So some of these impacts are due to, these are the impacts that correspond with the heart rate stuff. How do we get that? Well, the task saturation can cause our heart rate to start to in increase, right? with that, we get a time distortion. We we we think that that that it it's been seconds, so I need to call. Or we think that it's been it's been minutes when it's only been seconds. Right. So some of these things start to happen. How can we combat these? If you listen to Chief Ridgeley in his interview, he talked about his training. His training helped him out, right? That's why it's important for us To really train as close as possible to what's real. For in for commanders, simulation training is a great way to kinda to prepare us for these these incidents that are gonna rate gonna cause us stress. He talked about preparation, right? Setting up his buggy so that he had less things. This is the same thing for you guys, for for the guys in the back step, for the officers in the front seat. You set yourself up so that's one less thing that should stress you, right? If if my gear was all fumbled up in in the in the fire truck, now as I pull it out, that's stressful. If if I know how to put it on quickly and I have it set up so that it doesn't cause me problems and I go through those routines regularly, that reduces that stress. He talks about preparation. Again, right, whether it's training, you get that's part of your preparation, but also setting yourself up. here, you'll see this was one of my command charts and what I did was I prepared for the the May Day by having as I flip if I could flip the command chart up, underneath there is our Mayday checklist. So it's right there. Also it's it's laminated so I could take it off and hand it to to my my aide or the next chief that comes, right? Well I could keep it and I can hand in the command board. But I have this I'm prepared for this. And another thing I think that we miss Is breeding. We we we like to call ourselves, or there's a segment of the Father Service that likes to call ourselves tactical athletes. Right. And I think the one thing that that we miss that athletes have is they know exactly when their game is. We don't know exactly when our game is. So we have to f we have to be prepared. We have to be able to to know, right? We have to be able to to react to the stress when it comes. That's why why I think the breathing thing can be so so important to us. We take it for granted. But it can really help. I've been reading some books. There's a great book out called B Breathe. can't find it, but it was a great talks all about th this person immersed themselves in a lot of different things that that mountain mountain climbing, breathing, underwater stuff. They immerse themselves in all kinds of stuff to kinda find out about about breathing and and the techniques. And again, there there's all there's all kinds of examples of these athletes out there. I saw great one about a baseball player about how as he controls his breathing, it makes everything slow down. So that ninety mile an hour pitch that's coming at him, he's he can control that. He can slow that down and he's ready to receive it as it comes in and then he he gets the most, right? And that's where they also you've heard them talk about how the ball looks bigger, right? As as those things slow down and they can control their physiological responses, they they they can take advantage of this. We can do the same thing. One thing we can we can do this month's skill drill is to kind of practice this stuff. The skill drill is to practice box breathing. box breathing is a technique again, so that you you can slow everything down. It helps us slow some of our our body responses down. We can regain our focus. It's a it's a possibility for us to create the opportunity to reassess the situation. Maybe it looks clearer and we can make better decisions. So here's again, this is an easy one. You h you inhale for four seconds. You hold for four seconds, then you exhale for four seconds. You inhale for four, you hold for four, you exhale for four, you hold for four. That box breathing, and if you practice this stuff, it can really help you to make make better decisions and think clearer. Whether it's in front of your computer all that, I did this as a staff chief, you know, with makes working on the computer, you know, stress would start to come in. get all these all these people are coming in and asking questions and emails and and you wanna you want to reduce the stress, I'm streeting. if I'm driving down the road, take it takes a few minutes to practice this. It could really help you, you know, kind of think clearer and and help you to to make better decisions. So I want you to this is a skill drill for this month. When can you do it? This is a good thing to do while you're getting your gear on. Right again, those those skills that you have That you're very good at and and they become second nature. Incorporate some box breathing in that. As you're as you're sitting in the fire truck going down the road, do some box breathing. Right? Get that heart rate low. that's why I like to have a a a calm cab. if we have a calm cab, we're not yelling at each other, Hey, you make sure you do this and we c we should all kind of know our job, what we're gonna do, we can then kinda control that breathing, at least get that down so we're not Already amped up when we get off the ridge. Chiefs, right? You got a long response. you're listening to the radios, you can do the box breeding in there. This is a great example of Rick George. You guys might have seen some of his stuff. This is a fire engineering training minutes video. It's attached in in the the the write-up on this. he explains the box breeding pretty well. He also talks about some other breeding techniques that you can try. We've talked about other breeding techniques. in previous Maydays, especially when it came to SCBA use and how to get more air out of your bottle. But now I'm I'm specifically talking about stress and how we can handle that stress. When when the big one hits us, when that that that call, when the the the messages we don't want to hear, like those those inst those may days come in, we're ready to respond to them and can can make think with clear heads. Right, so that's this month's May Day Monday is the skill drill is to practice the box breathing. Listen to Chief Lidsley then also go back and and look at that May Day Monday from I forgot when it was, but it was a couple years ago when Chuck came on and we specifically talked about the incident and about Nate Flynn. We learned a little bit about Nate. He had some some good memories of Nate. And next the next or coming in the future, I have an interview coming up with a firefighter who's involved with the rescue. Josh Bertrick, some of you might have seen some of his stuff. He's gonna come on the May Day Monday podcast and we're gonna talk about his experience with that incident and his experience with really leading leading his team and making them battle ready, if you will. he gets we'll get into some stress stuff too with him. So that was this month's May Day Monday. I hope you practice these things. Not not too demanding for you guys for the beautiful October month as it as we transition into that that's the only time you're gonna hear me say transition, right? Is transition from the summer into the fall. All right, so thank you all for coming to my Mayday Monday. And please get out there, practice some of these survival skills so that we're back for more Mayday Mondays. See you next time.