Michael Harriot: Can a can a life coach help you become a high value woman? how does wearing a bonnet affect your mental health? And what about twerking? Can you diagnose neurodivergence on social media? While those might sound like a bunch of different random questions, every week we ask an expert, a scholar, or a person who just knows things to tackle one question. and today we're gonna ask Dr. April Scott to black splane Is the internet making us dumb? Dr. April Scott currently serves as the director of strategic initiatives for health and well-being at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. She holds a bachelor's degree in psychology from Tuskegee University. And yeah, we're gonna get to the Bonnet thing. An MS in clinical psychology from Barrie University, and a PhD in counseling psychology from Auburn University. she's worked across multiple settings, including substance abuse treatment programs. Community mental health centers, a Veterans Affairs Hospital, Group Practice, University Counseling Centers. she also has over 12 years of instructional experience, including working with special populations such as student athletes, first generation college students, and serving as an adjunct professor and I've known her for years, and I wanted to talk to her about some of the pop psychology we hear on the internet, people di self-diagnosing themselves on social media. But halfway through our conversation I realized like she knows so much about so much other stuff. like she literally studied how hip hop affects black women's images of themselves. She went to Tuskegee, so we gotta discuss the bodied thing. She's a psychologist, so we gotta discuss Cheyenne Bryant. But the thing that I really wanted to ask her is about how the internet and social media is affecting us mentally, whether it's ruining the field of psychology, or whether the people you see talking about mental health issues actually know what they're talking about. So welcome to Black Explain, where instead of getting people's opinions, you get real answers from people who know what they're talking about. so doctor April Scott was the perfect person to blacksplain today's question. Is the internet making us dumber? the first thing I want them to know is that like we've done this a million times. There was a time when we were at the end of every year, we would do a yearly recap of like how crazy the year was. But we stopped doing it because people had dis like white folks had really discovered what the name meant, and it was called the Stay Woke Show. And that was It's hard to imagine now 'cause it makes me feel old. But it's it was we started doing that ten years ago. And the other thing is that I want everybody to feel of f to know that like I'm not getting scammed like Cheyenne Bryant did. I know I knew you when you were getting your masters and your PhD. And so they don't have to worry about me, Talking to somebody from this Cheyenne Bryant School of Life Coaching or anything like that. But there are a bunch of stuff. There's a bunch of stuff I want to talk to you about, right? So the first thing I wanted to ask you is, you know, to kind of give us an overview of like why this, why you're even interested in the field of psychology. April Scott: Yeah, so hello, grateful to be back. or different format, but back again. I was one of the weird kids in like eighth grade that who knew what I wanted to do, or I knew what I wanted to be when I grew up. I was always fascinated about the power of like mental energy and talking to yourself and just wanted to learn more about the brain and the mind. And some of it came from my own personal experience of having to work through self-esteem issues and bullying. And I just became really fascinated. And so I knew that when I grew up, I probably didn't know the term psychologist or therapist, but I wanted to go into mental health. So I went to undergrad, Tuske University, got my bachelor's insight, master's insight, PhD insight, yes, degreed, not from the school, Michael Harriot: Yeah. April Scott: Dr. Bryant, there's evidence of my graduation out there. However, I'm not a licensed clinician. So that I will I don't want to misrepresent that, but I do have my backgrounds are in physical psychology and I have been a clinician. Right now I'm on the administrative side of things at higher ed, but yeah, I d I've continued to be fascinated just about about the mind and mental well being in general. It's a passionate. Michael Harriot: What always surprises me when people, when I talk to people who know a lot about a specific thing, is how much we really don't know about that thing. How and how much do we know about like the brain, how it works, because I know it's still discovering stuff. April Scott: Right, right. And things change all the time. Like the way the brain was taught of taught when I first started school in 2000, 2001, compared to 2015 when I was finishing up my doctoral studies, shifted then in just 15 years. So I'm sure there's new research now. We don't know a lot, and there's a lot of things that we've been told that are not accurate. Like the idea of being right or left brain is not really accurate. Like. we typically use a little bit of both. the idea of like when they say men are more logical, women are emotional. When you actually look at the gray and white matter of the brain that that act are activated in no sense, that doesn't support the statement. The idea that we only use like 10% of our brains, that like it's way more complex than kind of these quick myths or statements that we believe in. But it's and that's kind of the whole thing with mental health is way more complex, which is why a lot of people in the field are frustrated with social media sometimes, because the sensational stuff is what goes viral. And it's like, yeah, it's not always accurate though, but it's it grabs your attention. But it's like, yeah, but that's not really how it works. But yeah, it's way Michael Harriot: So when April Scott: more complex. Michael Harriot: so when you listen to, I know like there are a lot of things that make me want to throw my phone from like, I mean, all of us, right? Like when I hear people explain about black on black, like black people talking about black on black crime. And April Scott: Thank you. Okay. Michael Harriot: I'm I imagine that when you hear a lot of stuff on social media, you wanna ask, like, what are we doing here? When you first saw or heard of Dr. Bryant or that the Bryant woman, did you s immediately say, did your like spidey senses immediately start tingling? Or did you like just think like this is just another one of those social media life coaches? April Scott: So when I first heard of her, it was the Cam Newton interview that the clips. And I'm watching and I was like, okay, she's, she's, she's going at him. And then I noticed like she was really savvy in how she interacted with him. Like when she was sent to him become a defensive, she she knew how to stroke his ego. So I was like, she's she's good. But then she would say certain things that typically people who are Experts in the field, they don't use the language of like high value man, high value woman. I'm like, we don't we don't talk about humans like that, and so that got me thinking, like, okay, but I didn't question her degree, so I was like, maybe maybe whatever. She's just trying to use the language that people are using on social media. But then when she couldn't verify anything, and that's when I was like, I don't know. And then the more she talked around it, that's when I was she don't, she doesn't have She I do believe she went to school. I believe she started a doctoral program, but I don't see the difference. and it started to become even more clear. Michael Harriot: Yeah. And I I I always wonder about that 'cause you know, some of the discourse like why she ain't got no graduation pictures. Like so I ne after high school, I never actually attended a graduation. so I don't have any graduation photos. Like my family was in South Carolina. I was in two states away. And so like I was wonder I was like sh I ain't no used to me going to this undergrad graduation. And you know I went to Auburn, so you don't actually walk across the stage. Right? Like we just stand they say stand up and then in and I went to graduate school at Florida State. So we didn't walk across the stage. Right. and so I never actually attended any of my gradu my graduations and like my mama got all my degrees. I I I have a copy because when I applied for I can't remember what job, but you had to do it on LinkedIn and you had to upload something to prove you had a had a degree. And so I did that, right? Like I just contacted my but it's not a actual like what you would put in the frame. It's just the verification from the college that you have a degree in this thing, right? Which April Scott: Yes, it's a transcript. Michael Harriot: right. So and the reason I'm I'm going through all of this is because like you see, I'm sure you see a lot of stuff that makes you want to throw your phone by people who we assume have like these masters and doctorate level educations who are talking to us about mental health and they don't, right? Like, so what is what what do you what do you think, first of all, do you think that harms or helps or you know makes it more challenging for you and people like you to do what they do? April Scott: Yeah, it's a double-edged sword because for some people, that's the safest space for them to even hear about mental health because maybe it's not talked about in their family. And so there's like this online space where they can go and hear people who have lived experience talk about it. But then on the flip side, you run into people who are self-diagnosing themselves, you can't control, like there's no filter online that says this is accurate or inaccurate. So People are assuming that because this person speaks with authority or they're catchy or they're funny, they're charming, that what they are saying is true. Therefore, I'm now going to listen and follow what they're saying. And I think the dangers of people who do that is that there are a lot of grifters out there. And they know like how to hook folks. And unfortunately, people aren't asking about credentials. They're not looking to say, like, well, what's your training? Like, I know you say you're an expert on this, but. What training do you have? And one of the things that you know, we learned early in school is that just because you've experienced something, just because it worked for you, does not mean it will work for everyone else. And sometimes that's people's like modus of operandi when they're they're like, Well, I Michael Harriot: Yeah. April Scott: experienced this and it worked for me. So now I'm gonna write a book, I'm gonna sell a course, I'm gonna give a give you an ebook on how you can manage. And it's like, no, no, no, that worked for you. That does not mean you then package and sell it as a treatment. So it's it's a double egg sword. I think I almost want to say it it harms more than helps, but then I the accessibility is really tricky with when it comes to mental health. Like how many of us, you know, we're we're not too far in age, grew up with our peers going to therapy or getting a diagnosis. Like a lot of that stuff has been inaccessible for so many of us. So online the just remove a few barriers, but it introduces so many other risks at the same time. Michael Harriot: Yeah, like we're in a area we're in a era now where so I was talking to I do a thing called the wake-up call every Friday and I was talking about when I was diagnosed at a early age with a w it was called hyperactivity disorder then, right? and it you know, then it was ADD and then it was ADHD. But I remember the person who diagnosed me, they didn't actually Ask me anything, right? They ask like they gave like questionnaires. I saw the questionnaire he had given to my mom to give to my teachers. I was I wasn't going to school, so she was filling out you know all of it herself. But we see so many people just like say, Yeah, I got ad too. I s I see people talking about ADD, and I and I got it too. And I I kinda wanna tell them like like just because you feel a certain way, because Most of the time that I hear people talking about ADHD, right? Like as if it is forgetfulness. And I was like, no, it's not that we forget, right? it is, you know, the example that I use is I can't talk it to on my phone when I'm getting out of the car at Walmart because it's not that I w I will forget where I parked, it is that I my attention is has is not on that, right? So April Scott: Yes. Michael Harriot: This self diagnosis trend where everybody is neurodivergent, everybody got a little bit of the tism. every I remember everybody, you know, after Rain Man, everybody was like, Yeah, I got a little bit of that too, right? April Scott: Yeah, now let's go to the casino. Yeah. Michael Harriot: Right. What when like how well first of all, as a professional, how likely or accurate is it that like someone could like take an online questionnaire and diagnose this themselves with something like ADHD or you know, autism or something like that? April Scott: Yeah. It's it's not accurate. Now, what it can do is give you like recommendations like based off of this, it is likely, so you should follow up. And that's the key thing. I am fine with people using online tools if it's followed up by a professional. When you take that online tool as fact, it's kind of like if you you you're something's wrong with your car and you go pressing things online. That's not the same as somebody actually getting under the hood, looking and saying, like, actually, it's this. And that that's kind of how I look at online assessments. I I would not say don't use them because again, accessibility can be very expensive. It takes a lot of time to get these appointments, but they should not be used as diagnostic tools. And most of them will tell you that. but it's so easy and because it's so popular, like I was looking at reading, doing a little reading to prepare for this, and they were saying how many videos on TikTok had the hashtag autism. And as they were they reviewed some of the videos, they found a lot of inaccuracies in the hashtag. And they're saying, you know, TikTok is like a billion views a day. So when you think of something as easily accessible as TikTok, threads, whatever, and all this information is going out, but there's no correction happening, that's where the self-diagnosis gets tricky. It's not inherently bad because sometimes peak if it's a entry, like an entry to actual getting Michael Harriot: Right. April Scott: to a professional, I'm all for. But when it stops just as self-diagnosis, it can be, it can be, it can, yeah, that can cause some problems. Michael Harriot: If so when you like how if I said, well, maybe I have, you know, autism or ADHD. Let's go with with ADHD, right? April Scott: Yeah. Yeah. Michael Harriot: Because what's interesting is that like I was diagnosed at an early age. I didn't start taking medication until I was 30 in my 30s. But I the people who started giving me the medication have never diagnosed me. Like I've never taken an assessment to get my medicine. The medical industry sometimes just is like, yeah, I'll give you like you go to a doctor and they'll be like, Yeah, you got you you got I'll give you the the medication. If you were going to get a real assessment of, let's say, ADHD, what would that look like? you know, you don't have to give me a detailed description, April Scott: Yeah. Michael Harriot: but what does it encompass? April Scott: Yeah, so a a thorough assessment, because sometimes you can go to a primary care doctor and talk for 20 minutes and walk out with a diagnosis because they are medical professionals. But typically if you go to a psychologist or even maybe a psychiatrist, it's gonna be we call it a battery of assessments, meaning it's a Michael Harriot: Mm. April Scott: lot of assessments. and you get narratives as well. We interview you, we may interview a teacher. But if you're not in school, we may interview somebody in your life because we need to corroborate or just compare to see like what have they known, what have they noticed? We want to know about their childhood. So it's an extensive interview. And then comes the actual assessment. So sometimes we could look at different intelligence tests, or there are even online assessments where essentially like, I want to give it away, but we you you may watch a game or we have you watch something on the screen. And we track your focus and we'll use that. And so we'll take that score and then compare it to some other tests we administered. Then we go back and look at the narrative. Then we go back and look at your high school, reach all your school records that we give us. So it's extensive. So when you think of all that, and then compare it to somebody just going online and taking a five minute questionnaire, no way can would you think that they're going to be equally accurate. So it's extensive. It takes a a pretty nice amount of time to get a a diagnosis. Or sometimes you go to your primary care provider and you know, not knocking MDs, but many of them aren't trained in the same way that your clinicians are. So that's probably why the people who have prescribed you the information, they're like, okay, we trust you. Sure, here you go. also there's a thing too, like we know black boys are often overdiagnosed, particularly Black boys, their behaviors in school are pathologized more than their non-Black peers. So there's often sometimes a regered reaction to say, it's probably this. So that, and then that also makes people more reluctant to get testing because they're like, well, they're just trying to all that to say is you you take all of it into consideration. So I would never tell someone to like ignore a recommendation from a teacher just because of historical racism. I would say consider the context of historical racism and diagnosis as you go through this process and even for the people who are making the recommendation. But yeah, it's it's pretty an an extensive process. Michael Harriot: So so it brings up you said something while you were talking, right? What is the difference between because I don't think a lot of people know I you know, don't know if I know, the difference between a psychologist and a psychiatrist. April Scott: Yes. So a psychiatrist is a medical doctor. They are an MD. They went to medical school and they chose to specialize in psychiatry. Same way someone may specialize in in cardiovascular health or obstetrics. They chose to specialize in psychiatry. Psychiatry Michael Harriot: So so like so like a a person who like a cardiologist is a person who works on the heart, a psychiatrist is a person who is a doctor who works on a a medical doctor who works on the brain. Okay. Right. April Scott: Yes. Yes. Yes. Their focuses on under mental health. Psychiatrists historically have been known to focus mostly on medication. They press Michael Harriot: Mm. April Scott: they can prescribe medicine because they are medical doctors. Psychologists, most of them cannot unless they are in a state that allows psychologists to prescribe medicine, but there are only a handful of them that do that. So that's a big distinction. And oftentimes psychiatry appointments are not really focused on talk therapy. It's it's symptom management. So they may see someone for 17 to 20 minutes. Psychologist is way more clinical focused, more, more this is your traditional talk therapy. So that appointment is going to be 50 minutes and up. some psychiatrists will say, not me, I actually meet with my clients longer, but typically also just with the medical model and billing, they their appointments are like 20 minutes. Michael Harriot: Yeah, and like for instance, I I I I think it's also important to know like with a s like a a psychiatrist, no, a psychologist, April Scott: Mm-hmm. Michael Harriot: like sometimes you might need to go to two or three to find the one that works for you. Like, April Scott: Absolutely. Michael Harriot: I didn't even know this until I actually I started going to therapy, right? There were th there are therapists that focus on like what is the origin of your behavior? And then there are some Like the one I ended up going to was focus focused on like how do we change the behavior. Like we don't we don't have to have this academic theoretical April Scott: Yes, yep. Michael Harriot: viewpoint on like finding out what's something that happened when you were six years old and you saw your mama doing something. You can just say, This is a problem, April Scott: Yeah. Yeah. Michael Harriot: how do we fix it? Right? Right. April Scott: Yeah. Yeah. So I wanna want to could I I didn't say so psychologists typically have they've earned a PhD in clinical counseling psychology or field of psychology. And here's a funny thing, I cannot call legally call myself a psychologist because I am not licensed. So most states regulate even what you're allowed to call yourself. So you must pass a license to your exam and complete, I think the the postdoc hours vary from state to state. Then you legally can call yourself a psychologist. Also, folks who have completed a PSID, which is a doctorate of psych doctorate of psychology, PhD is a doctor of philosophy. So what you're speaking about is theoretical orientation. So theoretical orientation is basically the clinician decides or they they lean towards a certain way of how they believe behavior is explained. And it's like just different modalities of therapy. So what you explain sounds like cognitive behavior therapy or behavioral therapy. Yeah. yeah. So Michael Harriot: Yep, it is. He he actually wrote a book, so yeah, I read it. Yeah. Yeah. April Scott: that's it. So that so that's that was my modality that I heavily leaned on as and then the more I started working, I started to I consider myself a enclectic, not enclector, but enclectic nervous wire Michael Harriot: Yeah. You you inclect the April Scott: I pull from A lot of different modalities. But yeah, you have the what most a lot of people think of like the person lying down on the couch and someone is writing like the stereotypical Sigma Freud. That's more psychodynamic, where they're looking at impulses and unconscious drives. Then you have emotion-focused therapy where they're they're digging more into helping you find the language and naming the emotions and understanding how that contributes. There are so many different Modalities and I I want to use a metaphor that one of my friends, Dr. Shari Day, uses. She's like, it's just like jeans or clothes. You may see your homegirl and she got them a pair of jeans. You're like, my God, you look great in those. Where did you get them? You go by that same pair of jeans, put them on, and you like, no, this does not work. You don't just give up jeans. You go, okay, I just need to try a different pair or a different store, or maybe it's this size. And it's it's very similar when you're looking for your therapist. Just because one doesn't fit, that doesn't mean you give up. This just doesn't fit. Like, so you keep going until you find someone who can. And you can also ask for a free consultation. So if you're worried about wasting money or wasting a copay, you can say, like, hey, can we do like a 20 minute phone consultation? Or just in that way you can kind of get an idea of if you vibe with the person and But yeah, it's it's different ways, going back to what we talked about, the complexities, right? The complexity of the mind, the body, and the spirit. So because we know it's so complex and humans are complex, there can't be one way to do this that's gonna work for everybody. We gotta look at different things. Michael Harriot: Right. And I I I didn't even know about the you can't call yourself a psychologist unless you were licensed until it's a funny story. I covered like literally sat in the courtroom and covered the Dr. Umar trial. 'Cause his defense was that he wasn't calling himself a c psychologist. It was people who didn't know on like if he was on the Breakfast Club who would who would call him. And he proved it. Like April Scott: Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Michael Harriot: like I f I left thinking Like I still understand why people think he's a scammer, but he was right, right? and April Scott: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The tricky thing about that though is you're also not supposed to even insinuate it. So like if I don't say psychologist, but if you go, all right, we got Dr. April Scott, she's a she's a psychologist, I go, actually, let me just correct you there because even though I didn't say it, if I didn't correct it, then I'm letting it, I'm letting that narrative fly and I could get in trouble for that. So Michael Harriot: Right. And that's that's what their argument was, but he accurately pointed out, like, but when I go in there, I don't say you're wrong, but I say Dr. Umar s certified school psychologist or something like that, right? So April Scott: And then yeah, yeah. Michael Harriot: so the other thing is, right, so when we're talking about all of these things that you see on social media or on the internet, on a YouTube video of people kind of giving hypothetical, psych psychiatric or psychological advice. Do like what's the difference? I know some of these people like are counselors, some of some people say they're a therapist, some people even say they're a life coach. Like what's the distinction between those things? April Scott: Yeah. So life coach is not regulated. You could tomorrow put a shingle outside your door and call yourself a life coach and there's nobody to stop you. There's no one to check. There's no oversight. Now there are more organizations that have come out to kind of legitimize it, but for the most part, it's unregulated. Like how I told you there are state, like there are laws or statutes that regulate what I am even allowed to call myself and the amount of training that I have to give done. That's not there for life coach. It's it's whatever. So it's unregulated. life coaching is also focused more on behavior change. They don't really get into the why, the what. Michael Harriot: Mm. April Scott: but also you don't know what type of training they've they've had. So you are really it's it's tricky not to say that's not just yeah. Michael Harriot: So yeah, so so so if I wanna be a a a a high value man, I should go see a life coach, right? April Scott: Yes, yes, those two things are the Venn diagram of Michael Harriot: Mm-hmm. April Scott: is great. Yes. counselor and yeah. So Michael Harriot: But and a therapist. Okay, go ahead. Go go no no go ahead. Go ahead. April Scott: counselor and therapist, those two words are kind of used interchangeably. And that usually means someone has received a master's degree in a clinical field such as social work, counseling, mental health counseling, and depending on the state that they're in. the they can use the terms interchangeably. I'll often use therapists just because again, legally I don't want to call myself a psychologist because I do therapy. but typically they have gone to school licensed therapists or licensed counselor means they have attained whatever the state requirements are for that particular degree. But yeah, life coach, it's whatever you might have gone to a full week online program and you got a strategic. Yeah. Michael Harriot: Now, I think we've seen the explosion of therapy. Like pe I think more people are going to therapy, which is a good thing. But I've I've also read that I think there is a overc that people think that there is an overconsumption of therapy as a solution to many problems. Like how do you feel about that? Like April Scott: Yeah. Yeah. I disagree. Now I don't think therapy is a one stop shop, right? Because there is no amount of therapy I can give you if you're about to get kicked out of your apartment, if you don't Michael Harriot: Mm. April Scott: have enough food. Therapy is not going to resolve basic needs issue, right? Like I can't therapy your way out of that, or even racism. Like there are certain things it may be just working on how to manage it. or if you want to fight systems, sure. But I don't really think there's an overconsumption. I think people may be weaponizing therapy or using it in a way that that that's not true to what is actually happening in the therapy. Like some people said, well, my therapist said that I don't have to do it if I don't feel like it, because she said I have to put me first. And you're like, did did your therapy actually say that? Or is that what you heard when they talked about boundaries? But I don't think there's an overconsumption of it. I do think therapy is helpful. I think when when you know we talk about reparations with black people, then part of reparation should be free health care and free mental health care. because there are so many things that we go through on a daily basis, then you tap into like our childhood and history. And when that stuff is unresolved, it doesn't just disappear. Like it lives somewhere. It lives in the mind, lives in the body, lives in the spirit. And if we aren't intentional about working that stuff out, it eats us from the inside. But there are different ways of healing, right? Like we've had, we think of like indigenous cultures or the culture of storytelling. And like these are also things that are therapeutic. So while therapy, I'm a strong advocate for therapy. I don't think that it's like go to therapy and your life is great. Don't go to therapy, your life is bad. But I would never dismiss it. I think everyone should try it and really try it, like not lie to your therapist. but there are also other avenues of healing that are not as traditional as what you know you can build. Michael Harriot: So when you for people who have never gone to therapy, because I I see this a lot in the depiction of therapists, and it's in my experience, maybe it's just the therapist who I've talked to, it doesn't happen. Like people will say, My therapist told me to do this. Like, do therapists April Scott: Yeah. Michael Harriot: like give you things like, hey, you should stop? or do they act because in my experience they ask, like for instance, April Scott: Yes. Michael Harriot: if you say I get afraid, I get this feeling when I drive down the street. Will say, Well, my therapist told me to stop dri driving down that street, April Scott: Yeah. Michael Harriot: right? and in my experience, my therapist will ask me, like, why do you get this feeling? Do you think it could be changed if you stop driving down that street? Do you think that would solve April Scott: Yeah. Michael Harriot: the problem, right? how like how often do people like a therapist tell you you need to leave that man? Or you need to, you know, you need to take some April Scott: Yeah. Michael Harriot: time off from work, you need to leave work, right? Like, how April Scott: Yeah, yeah. Michael Harriot: often does that happen in your experience? April Scott: So ideally, you don't really want to get in the habit of telling your clients what to do because then it's not really helpful. Like I always tell when I start therapy with someone, I tell them my goal is to work myself out of a job. Right. I I don't, I'm, I'm not really long-term for the most part. So I tell them, my goal is to get you to the point where you don't really need me or you just need me every once in a while. So me telling them what to do is not gonna help. There may be certain situations that if I feel are like, this is bad, I may say, hey, I let's let's talk about this. Like maybe we should consider what it looks like to stop and kind of think through it. I want to go to the example you use of like the street. So if someone is is nervous or they feel anxious about doing a thing, what we may do then is go into exposure therapy. So I was a PRAC student at VA hospital for a couple of years on in Tuskegee, and part of the work that I I work on was with PTSD. And part of one of the interventions for PTSD is prolonged exposure therapy. So what that is, is that let's say your particular issue is that you don't like going out in crowded spaces, but you want to change it because it's interfering with your life. Like you're not, you're interfering with your life. So what we do is then we come up with a plan, we'll say, okay, so step one is I want you to walk by a restaurant. Just walk by. Just see the crowd, walk by, pay attention to your body, and then we give some tools. Step two is I want you to walk into the restaurant, walk around, and then walk out. Step three, and we do things till we build up to them. Now they're gonna sit in the restaurant, then they're gonna sit for 20 minutes, then they're gonna sit for 30. So those are some examples of where we're actually like telling them what to do, but as a part of the larger goal, it's more like behavior focus. but typically we try not to go in and say, Leave that man because if you don't know why you leave him, you can go right back to him. so we might say, what do you think will happen if you stay? I may ask it a different way. Because I need you Michael Harriot: Yeah. April Scott: to think through that. Yeah. Michael Harriot: And w so you said something, you said, right, like your your goal is to work yourself out of a job. That's a thing I wonder, right? Like does it end, right? Like does therapy like you say, Well, I'm good now. April Scott: Yeah, it depends. So like my brother has schizophrenia, right? He will forever have medical providers, right? Because his diagnosis does not end. Now it may shift on the frequency of how many times he needs to see someone, but he will never be without a medical provider. So I think for certain like chronic conditions, it may not end, but it just may look different. and it also depends on the person's modality. Like there are some therapists who like, yeah, I don't know, as long as they want to come in, we can talk about whatever. That's not my that's not kind of how I do it. I'm I'm very solution focused. so for me, therapy should have an end, and we established it at the beginning. So you come in, I say, all right, what you want to work on? What are your goals? And so the that's the point is to get to that, to where they can do it on their own. That's my philosophy. And I'm always here. So like, you know, recharges need to come in real quick. But I for me, I approach it to where there's a end goal in mind. Michael Harriot: So so when you talk to like someone, right? Like you you you you just talked about schizophrenia, we've talked about ADHD, we've talked April Scott: Okay. Michael Harriot: about PTSD, right? And I know like some of those things you can't like take a X ray or a CAT scan of somebody's April Scott: Yeah. Well. Michael Harriot: brain and see them. And some of them are mental illnesses, some of them are s like a kind of neurodivergence. What is the difference between those two? Like can you like definitively diagnose someone with like autism or schizophrenic April Scott: Yeah. Michael Harriot: schizophrenia or April Scott: Yeah. Michael Harriot: ADHD or those that range of things. April Scott: Yes, so let me see what I have in. So this is old. Sorry, y'all see my junky office. This is old, so this is outdated because we are on the five. So this is the Bible for clinicians. This is an old one. So people don't come at me. I know it's old, but I'm not throwing it away because I spent a lot of my moments. But this is the DSM4TR. It's a diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders. So in here is every disorder that you can think of. Well, not every, but a lot of them. And so what this is what we used to train on. So this gives us the criteria. like right now, this is asperger's disorder. This is old because we don't even use that term anymore. It's all autism. Michael Harriot: Mm-hmm. April Scott: And what it does, it gives you the diagnostic features, associated features of disorders, specific age group, family pattern, differential, it breaks it down all of the way. And then what you'll have are the criteria for diagnosis. And it looks like this. So this is what you use to give a sense of your diagnosis. And you're so it may say client must have four of the six following, plus two from this roll down here. So it's almost like math, a math problem all Michael Harriot: Yeah. April Scott: that. And based off of that, that's how you make your diagnosis. The tricky part is some of it is subjective. Because I was gonna say subjective, some of it could be up to the experience of who's doing a diagnosis because there can be overlap between things. And that's what we call differential diagnosis. Or we have to say, like, how do we know if it's A versus B? Because they're very similar. And you that's when you either do more interviews, you meet with them more often, you may bring in someone else, you may consult with somebody who's an expert in that field. So like autism has a set of criteria. That we look at. And we also pull into pull in other things. We may look at medical diagnosis. We're looking at milestones. How old were they when they started doing X, Y, and Z? Moosey delays. That lets us know, like, okay, we may be in an autism, or is it actual speech disorder? And that is why you need to go to a clinician because their two things can look alike, or the same symptom can be a part of various disorders. And Unless you have somebody who's trained in and you don't really know which one it is. Like, for instance, I don't know how things you give it is about ADHD. They're like, my gosh, my room is a mess. I can never keep my room clean. It's an ADD. So yeah, there's a lot of reasons why your room might be messy. ADD is not the only thing. It could be, are you getting enough sleep? Like we know sleep disorders influence a lot of behavior change. So when it that's the first step. If diagnosis is one, listening. You got to listen, get as much information as you can. and then you you pull out your your your handy dandy DSM. there are some providers who really they don't like the idea of diagnosis, but typically that's that's what you use as your guide. And then you may pull up some articles, you may go research if some things feel a little great. but yeah, that that is the the Bible for therapists, clinicians, psychologists, yeah. Michael Harriot: And and I know like a lot of diagnoses that we hear are actually personality quirks, right? so in and I April Scott: Yeah. Michael Harriot: wanna know if some of these are in the the DSM, right? So like April Scott: Yeah. Michael Harriot: for instance, like we hear about imposter syndrome, is that a real April Scott: Lost. Michael Harriot: thing or is just like a personality April Scott: Yeah. Michael Harriot: freak? April Scott: Yeah. So it's it's neither. It's definitely not a diagnosis. It's a phenomenon or it's an experience. And and some people question it. Like I've I've heard, I think Dr. Raquel Martin, who I love, who just like, no, there's no such thing as imposter syndrome. It's just racism. so imposter syndrome was was created by two I believe white female psychologists. and they they noticed this experience of women particularly who were experiencing self-doubt despite having all these accomplishments, but they they questioned themselves. And then it also led to certain behaviors. so it's a phenomenon, it's an observation, but it's not a diagnosis and it's not necessarily a personality trait either. It's a kind of are you have you are you familiar with the term stereotype threat? Okay. So I probably Yeah, Michael Harriot: Yes. I think you t I think l years ago you taught told me that. I think you taught me Yeah. April Scott: so stereotype threat is this forget I Phenomenal experience that of that happens when you introduce a stereotype to a person or a person's behavior is influenced by a stereotype. So one of the studies with stereotype threat is they would give a group of students a test. and let's say they split them up between biological male, biological female, and they go to the female group, same test and they go with their instructions. By the way, biological female students typically don't scroll away on this exam, and then they don't. give it to the they don't say that to the other group the group that got that little note of by the way their scores are lower despite having the same ability levels and what they're saying is because of the introduction of that stereotype is what influenced or defluenced their behavior. So that's kind of what imposter syndrome is. So it's not a diagnosis it's not it's not a personality quirk. It's an experience and there are people who question it. They question the the naming of it. is this just plain on sexism and racism? Did we just put a fancy label on it? Michael Harriot: So like if if so there are people who also say one of the things I doubt is like I'm an introvert or an a extrovert. Is that like a personality quirk or a real thing, right? Right. April Scott: Yeah. Yeah. It's a trait. It's a trait. It's a it's a it's a personality trait. And here's the thing about traits, like we all have them. It's just where do you fall on? Very the unfortunately the way we talk about it is like either or. And very few people, honestly, if they were to take like a personality assessment, would be 100% one way or another. We we vary. Michael Harriot: Yeah. April Scott: It changes. Sometimes you're extroverted, sometimes you're introverted. Sometimes as you get older, you want more. and this goes back into like the way we discuss things casually. People think extroverted equals outside all the time, bunch of people, introverted, I hate people. What it actually refers to is is kind of in a more simplistic way, where do you get your energy from? Like what recharges you. Michael Harriot: Yes. April Scott: So I I am really on the extraversion end. so for me, a recharge is I can just go to the farmer's market and walk around. I don't have to talk to anyone, but just being around and being outside, that is energizing for them. That's not to say someone who's introverted can't be around large crowds. It just may be more draining and they need more time to recover, and their recharge is personal time. so it's traits. So a one that's overused all the time is narcissism. So there is a such thing called narcissistic personality disorder. I want to say it has a prevalence rate less than 5%. And prevalence means like how many times it's diagnosed. I I want to say one, but don't quote me. Very, very low prevalence rate. How often do you hear someone calling someone a narcissist? Or Michael Harriot: Yes. April Scott: it's so overused because like it ain't really that many people that have the actual personality disorder. Now, we all have narcissistic traits. Right. We all can be self-involved, dismissive, selfish. Right. It's just how much of it is a thing. And that's where I think we gotta be careful when we start pathologizing personality traits. Like sometimes it's just a perk. I don't need a diagnosis for it. Like it's just it's just a thing. Michael Harriot: So I gotta go back and rewrite this thing I wrote about Stephen A. Smith then, right? I'm just I was just I'm just curious. But but April Scott: No, no, you do not have to rewrite anything. It's probably active. Michael Harriot: and then there are the stuff like because what we're talking about is personality traits, as you said. When does it become like if you are a really, really, really narcissistic, if you have a narcissistic personality, when does it become April Scott: Yeah. Michael Harriot: a disorder? April Scott: Yeah. So the way we this is actually a test that I used to give my site 101 students of when is something abnormal? Because we all have little quirks, right? I used to have my students like talk about weird things that they do. because that's kind of the history of psychologists. Somebody went and go, that's weird, but it also can be very dangerous if we just label that. so if it causes impairment. And distress. Those are kind of like the two things we look at. that's when we say, okay, we may be looking at some type of diagnosis. Does it cause impairment? Does it cause distress? an impairment could be anything from personal relationships, they're not able to like engage or have healthy relationships, they can't keep a job, they're getting arrested, right? So impairment or distress means it's distressing for them. So if I'm selfish, I don't care. what I do, but it ain't really bothering me. That may not necessarily, you Michael Harriot: Yeah. April Scott: know, right. So that's one way of looking like what's the difference between just a personality trait versus like a syndrome or disorder or a diagnosis. Those are the two things. Because it can't just be as different. We all do different stuff, right? Like you can walk in somebody's house and you go like, wow, you put your TV right there. that's weird. Or you whatever. Right? We all do things that are abnormal. That doesn't mean it was needs to be technological. Michael Harriot: Yeah. Yeah. So and then I know a lot of stuff I blame on ADHD and I don't know if it's true, right? Like I can't April Scott: Yeah. Michael Harriot: deal with competing sounds. Like if I was watching TV and April Scott: I'm amazing that. Michael Harriot: you know, you were talking on the phone, I couldn't deal with it. Like it is like I can't I it gives me a a physical feeling of like April Scott: Yes. Michael Harriot: so I I I think it's ADHD but I don't know. But like April Scott: And some some sensory overload is what or it's yeah, sensory overload. That's just a theme. It doesn't necessarily have to be attached to us. For some it is, like it's a trait of autism or like sensory sensitivity. But also people without autism or without ADHD can have that same sensitivity. Michael Harriot: Which which brings up a question I dn I didn't think about but I had this theory that remember like in the nineties and the two thousands, there was always when you went to a club, like you just didn't want to go to the club with a dude 'cause there would be a dude that like if somebody stepped on their shoe or bumped into them, they would start fighting or shooting up the club, right? I have a April Scott: Yeah. Yes. Michael Harriot: I have a theory that like a lot of those dudes were just autistic and can't deal with you know, sensory overload, like people rushing up April Scott: Yeah. Michael Harriot: against them. And I'm wondering how 'cause you said it was overdiagnosed in black men, but that's among people who actually seek out the diagnosis, right? April Scott: Yeah. Or in school, the school counselor prompted it. Yeah. Michael Harriot: So is it's something like being a sociopath or a psychopath, is that a actual diagnosis diagnosis or a mental health issue? April Scott: Yes, it is. I want to say a personality disorder. this is where I gotta remember which one. I want to say maybe sociopath, Lord, they're gonna come for me because I can't remember which one. So it's it's under a personality disorder. and there's definitions, so it's criteria for it. And it's the and here's the thing about personality disorders. Personality disorders are basically Things that are a part of you, they are ingrained in you. And the usually the way it's discussed is that it's not really something that you cure. It's you learn how to live with it. So if someone has NPD, they will probably always have, or NPD is narcissistic personality disorder. They will always have it. What you try to do is kind of help them navigate it. so like with sociopaths or psycho antisocial personality disorder, that's really Michael Harriot: Mm. April Scott: what it often is. It's it's almost seen as like it's just who they are. Now on the flip side, there's a criticism of personality disorders. There are people who s who think there's no such thing as a per and these are like people in the field who who have challenged some of the norms. They're like, Well, isn't it kind of wrong to pathologize somebody personality? Like that seems a little, you know, overkill to say that the way you are, the way you act is disordered. And so there there's like a challenge to even how we looked at personality disorders. But yeah, that and antisocial personality disorders often what people may catch when we say a sociopath or something. Michael Harriot: Yeah, but I mean I guess unless they're like burning like they always say that cereal killers start out like torturing animals. Like you might want to get that seed about, right? Like I saw a video April Scott: Yeah. Michael Harriot: I saw a video of a dude who was like putting mosquitoes in a syringe and like taking the air out of the syringe until they explode and then at the end of the April Scott: I love Michael Harriot: video everybody was like, Yeah, it's that's that's weird and then at the end of the video he put it in a notebook. That was filled with pages of like mosquitoes and dates that he had done it before and everybody said, Yeah, somebody should go call the police April Scott: Yeah. Michael Harriot: right now. Right. April Scott: Yeah, I would have questions. I wouldn't immediately, Jim, because like I would want to know how much of this is just he's curious and can we redirect it? Like there's there was this whole thing we were told like in school that a lot of people who are firefighters are what are the people who are chiral chiral Michael Harriot: Pyromaniacs. April Scott: yes. So they've learned how to channel their love for fire into something that is, you know, conducive to society. So for that person, I'd be like, why don't you look into the field of biology or the study of animals or insects? Let's go with the entomology. Let's get you into that. Michael Harriot: There's a a a famous case I got I think can't remember his name, but like the one of the most prolific pyromaniacs in history was ended up being a firefighter and like a f a fire investigator and and everywhere April Scott: well. Michael Harriot: he went, they was he became one of the best investigator of fires because he was setting them so often that. April Scott: Listen. Yeah. Michael Harriot: that he knew all about them. So he caught a lot of arsonists 'cause he was a pyromaniac. April Scott: Yeah. And that's I want to say we call that sublimation where you take something that may be considered irredeemable or bad and you turn it into something good. Absolutely. Same thing like people who've been caught by the government for hacking, they end up turning them into consultants. Michael Harriot: Yeah. April Scott: Right. You're so good at it. Help us. Yeah. Michael Harriot: So so if you so when you talk about psychology, psychiatry, April Scott: Mm-hmm. Michael Harriot: and then the differentiating between personality disorders or personality quirks, what's the famous test? I can't think of the name, the famous personality test that I'm just learning, like I never kind of April Scott: Yeah. Michael Harriot: adhere to it, but I'm just learning that it was a scam the whole time. what what's what's the name of it? Not well, I know about the Rorschach. There's another April Scott: Is it rorshark? The roarshark. not the rorshark. Michael Harriot: one. There's one that like when you take it, people say I'm two level level two blah blah. April Scott: Enneagram? Michael Harriot: I think that might be it, but there is I think there's a name for it. And I was reading the other day that yeah, that that thing isn't real. Like you could take it five different times and come up with five different personalities that descriptions of your personality. April Scott: Yeah. Not the MBTI, is that it? With like ENSJ type of thing. yeah. Michael Harriot: I that might be it. But But yeah, I actually learned about it from someone who was a professor at Tuskegee. but I I can't remember the exact name of it. But like are those like personality tests, what do they 'cause the article was essentially about like all personality tests are scams. so April Scott: Mm. Okay. Michael Harriot: so what was like are they like i are is there something to them? April Scott: Yeah. Yes, because but you want to make sure that you are using a that the person is using a validated instrument, a reliable instrument. We call it psychometrically sound, meaning that it has been vetted, used on different populations, because that's another thing with tests, whether it's personality or not. If you don't know, if they weren't normed on your demographic, you want to interpret those results with caution because you were not included when they started creating. Which is speaks to a whole nother issue in the field. But like the MMPI is a one of the most popular personality assessments. And it's the Minnesota multiphasic personality and photoidity. Nobody really cares about all that. But there are certain scales that come with the MMPI, and one of them is paranoid. and this is all so the MMPI is often used as a diagnostic tool to either rule out something or to confirm or just get an idea. of a person's profile. But like there's a scale for paranoia. Guess which population spikes on that scale, no matter what? Black. Michael Harriot: Of of course us, 'cause we we but but there is a foundation to our paranoia, right? April Scott: Yes. Right. And so with with that, you are trained as a clinician that if you are giving this assessment to a black person and if they spike on this scale, you don't interpret the same interpret it the same way as you would a non-black person. So that is but that is a a a test that has been, I mean, they have gone and broken it down. so it's more validated. Now if you just picked up something off the internet, I would I would proceed with caution. So some of it is asking how long has this test been been around? Who is it normed on? what's the relia? We use the terms reliability and validity all the time. So, real reliability is if I give this same test four different times, am I going to get the same sort of score every time? I am, so now it's reliable. Validity is just does it test for what it's supposed to? Is it a valid instrument? But if you just give and Very rarely are these tests free. So one, if you found it for free, it's probably not mad. lot of folks who create them, they they don't do it for free. but that's also something to keep in mind. These were created by men, by humans. So there's always gonna be room for error. And like going back to what you said before, so like the love languages, I'm sure you've heard about that, right? What are the five love languages? That's not a valid instrument. That's like self-help to an extent, okay? But people use. Michael Harriot: Yeah. Yeah. That's that's something created by a life coach. That that says the personality test version of life coaching, right? April Scott: Yes, that's a perfect example. Now that does not mean that it can't be helpful. Like, you know, you I remember Fruitopia or Snapple, like they used to have little quotes in the Michael Harriot: Yeah. April Scott: Yeah, I mean it wasn't the rest, but some of them are actually hitting on something sometimes. So it doesn't mean that just because the five love languages was created by someone that you gotta throw it all away, but it's like interpret with caution. Like use think of it as just a piece of information, but folks are like, well, I'm this, so that must mean like, no, y'all, this ain't even real. Michael Harriot: So so I think what I'm talking about is the Myers Briggs type indicator. So is that real or is it a scam? April Scott: Yeah. Yeah, the MBTI. I don't think it's a scam. There's there's people who who question it. I don't I don't think it's scam. I think any assessment that was created by a human will always be flawed. But the MBTI, no, it's it's still it's still considered a valid. assessment the thing is you don't ever if you're trying to give somebody a battery that's why we call it a battery of assessments we don't ever want to just use one because there are limitations for all of them like I said oftentimes we were not in the norm group when these things were created so we gotta be careful when we're using them but there is the good thing the beautiful thing about the field is there are always people who are gonna say you know what I don't think this MBTI is accurate. We've been using it for 60 years but when I did X, Y, and Z. I pulled up some stuff, which is good. Now I have not read any of that, so I can't speak to it. but I also have not received any instruction to not use any point. That doesn't mean that it should not be questioned or challenged. I'm just not aware of major. Michael Harriot: So you c you you mentioned a couple of times that some of these tests, some of these diagnoses, and even the practice itself, right? Like overlooks or undercounts or discounts black people, right? How well we see it the prevalence of that in almost every form of science and April Scott: Yes. Yeah. Michael Harriot: their everything, right? How well one is it changing and how Is that changing and how much harm does that has that done historically? April Scott: Yeah. I'll start with the harm. So the harm is a lot of misdiagnosing, underdiagnose, overdiagnosed, misdiagnosed. you know, think about intelligence tests before pefor was named that intelligence tests are are are racially biased. How many Michael Harriot: Mm. April Scott: kids, how many black kids, how many other, you know, minoritized identities were missed or misdiagnosed because they were using racist intelligence test. Michael Harriot: Right. April Scott: so that's the harm and how many books were written based off of this misinformation about, you know, think about the bell curve and that blacks tend to fall here. A lot of that is because assessments they're using was were not meant for us, or they're culturally they're not culturally sensitive enough to test for certain things. So that's the harm. And then it also leads to a continued distrust of the field because of that. Now the changes is that there's way more information out about it. Now you we are trained often, many times in the in our programs, we have to take courses on multicultural competency ethics where we are asking these questions. We have an ethical responsibility to only use instruments that are validated and culturally relevant and culturally tested, so to speak. So there are more safeguards in place, but that doesn't mean that it fixed. everything and also you have organizations like abside which is association of black psychologists where you can you know that we there's an organization out there that that speaks to these things and they have a conference and they their website you can find additional information so I think it's getting better but because the history of the field is very white very German very European Michael Harriot: Yeah. April Scott: We're still fighting to have our voices heard and to be represented in the field, like to be considered like a standard, so to speak, and not just like, I'm gonna go to this conference and happen to walk on a session about black women and depression. so we're still fighting to be seen. my my dissertation was on the influence of curvy ideal rap lyrics on black women's body dissatisfaction. And basically I wanted to see like what is the influence of of Where okay, so it was from an observation. I was seeing this was back when like stories about women going to like basement parties and getting a fix of flat injected into their butts and like the cosmetic. Michael Harriot: I remember when you were you were ch getting people to trying to get this questionnaire out. Go ahead. April Scott: Yes, yes. And what I wanted to see was like, so what what shifted in the culture to where these like body types that are really extreme have become the norm and women are risking their lives toward and where it's an influence. So I wanted to look at music. So my study, I only use black women for a couple of reasons, because for body image research, there are very few studies that look only at black women. They often compare black women to white women. So the belief in the body image world, eating disorder as well, is that, well, black women have a higher satisfaction with their bodies. They're not as prone to eating disorders and body image as white women or other races. But if when you start digging to the research, you realize it's inaccurate because in many of those studies, they would compare black women to white women. So they would get a group of black women and give them magazines and it would be like bowl. whatever, 17, and they're showing them images of white women, and then they'd have the black women complete some type of questionnaire afterward. They're like, look, their scores didn't change. It's like, yeah, because you showed them white women. Like we don't, that's not a thing. So all this to say, so for my study, I proposed I'm only using black women. So you have to go through this process, the institutional review boomer, because shout out to the Tuskegee Syphilis experiment. These are safeguards in place to make sure that any studies and research that you're not harming it. So there's a an approval process. I should say shout out to United States Public Health because that's who funded that study. But anyway, I get notes back from the IRB. They didn't, they weren't supposed to send it to me. I said this day, somebody accidentally sent it to me. They said my study could be considered racist because it did not include white women. And my study would be more psychometrically sound if I included white men. And Listen. Michael Harriot: So you so it's it's in in I guess it's invalid unless you compare white women black women to white women. April Scott: That is what they were recommending. And I said, Michael Harriot: Mm. April Scott: Absolutely not. Thank God my advisor at the time, Dr. Annette Cluck, white woman, she she advocated on my behalf. She said, Absolutely not. This is racist. Because as a grad student, I'm just trying to get done, right? I don't really want no smoke with the RB. I feel strongly, but I'm trying to graduate. She went in, long story short. Michael Harriot: And the other th I think people don't understand that as a graduate student, especially as a PhD student, you don't really like go to class every day. So those people on your on the on your committee that are looking over your thesis, like they really have a lot like you see them as having a lot of power. Like, damn, I'm I've been here three years and they said my shit racist and I gotta start over. April Scott: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. Yeah. Or I gotta go back and rewrite it. But thankfully my chair advocated for me and I ended up getting an apology from like the head of the institution research. But I say all that to say, think of how many studies, potential studies, have gotten rejected because somebody said, Well, why do we only want to study black people? Why do we only want to study Asian Americans? Why do we only why not? So I was fortunate enough that I had someone to advocate, but how many other studies don't get funded? Because you know, especially now where it's considered discriminatory to Michael Harriot: Right. April Scott: do it, right? So I'm kind of being long-winded about this, but that's what I think about when we we're talking like just the racism and how racism impacts measures and assessment. Like it goes even into the research for interventions, because if My because what happens going back to the eating disorder piece, because we weren't considered, we're not considered in the treatment. So when they're making these interventions and ways to reach populations, they're not coming to us because somebody told them we didn't need it. And that was based off of inaccuracies infused by racism. So with these assessments, I think people should ask questions. Find out who wrote them, how has it been used? Are there any challenges to it? but yeah, there's still, you know, racism assignments, like pin of the window. Michael Harriot: And and the other thing is if you were doing that piece and didn't focus on black women, you could have just included white women and just call it, you know, just eliminate the word black and say, I wanna see how these images or a riot hop affects women, right? And April Scott: Yeah. Michael Harriot: they wouldn't have even thought to see how many black women are in this, right? April Scott: Nope. Michael Harriot: So having said that, right, so what what what did you conclude? April Scott: So as with most dissertations, my findings were not significant, but that's fine. I I was just told to get it done. so I looked at mute, expose them to music. Now it's tricky because you know, it's not like I could give them eight hours worth of listening. So it was Michael Harriot: Yeah. April Scott: probably like 10 minutes worth. There were three songs. One was tip drill. I can't remember the other ones, but I looked for songs that specifically focus on like. Michael Harriot: Yeah, I might have that in my email as actually. Yeah. April Scott: I I specifically looked at music that highlighted bodies and then I had to have like neutral songs. then I also looked at ethnic identity score. So basically how closely connected to black culture people were. And I thought that so what I found is people the women who score highest on ethnic identity had higher dis body dissatisfaction. and they were They were the exposure to the music had more of an impact on their scores compared to women who had lower ethnic identity. So it was just interesting in like how does how much you identify with black culture, does it serve as a buffer to the music or to what the images and the the not images, what you're hearing? now again, this is dissertation. If I were to do the study again, I would definitely have it longitudinal. 'cause what I'm really trying to figure out is what are the influences and how strong are these influences, right? 'Cause like Michael Harriot: And how like how the music influences how women see themselves? April Scott: Yeah, and then what how what else influences that? like does the like what else because you know the no way will I say music is the sole reason for this thing, it's you Michael Harriot: Mm. April Scott: want to know how much is it influencing and then what are the buffers like why how can two women hear the same song or be exposed to the same thing and walk away with completely different messages? And it like reading about this was so fascinating because I came up on a study, you know how they talk about like the violence. Michael Harriot: Yeah. April Scott: Hip-hop. So I came up on a study that they looked at hip-hop and country music. And they found that country music by far was more violent, way more violent, Michael Harriot: More violent, right? April Scott: but no one attributed to it attributed attributed the music to being like a precursor or a cause for violence. But hip-hop, same group, yeah, this is the reason why, but But you're like, but wait a minute, but country music is more violent. So why is rap the only one that's considered, Michael Harriot: Yeah. April Scott: you know, so yeah. Michael Harriot: Yeah. I mean I mean literally in think about rock and roll, the motto was sex, drugs, and rock and roll. But you know, my first job was at a country music station, and I always point this out that I was in introduced to the most violent form of music at a young age. Cause I mean, you're talk if you're talking about like now it's kind of they kind of make a a a hillbilly version of rock music, but back in the late eighties and early nineties, they were still talking about like gun toting, like the coward of the cow. Like there were songs about like, they raped my wife and what am I don't do? Like, should I kill her? April Scott: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Beat yeah. Beat your wife, beat your dog. Yes. Michael Harriot: Yeah. And so when this whole conversation online about like young Miami the City song and the city girls, like were you again, did this make you want to throw your phone? because like you could 'cause you literally studied this, right? yeah. April Scott: It it it I studied it. I studied it and and so when it ha and this is why I have a temper sometimes like which arguments I'm gonna engage in. I think the young Miami song is bad. I think it's a categorically bad song. That that's not a judgment, Michael Harriot: Right. April Scott: not speaking to how who it influences. I think it's a crappy song. It's catchy. Like Michael Harriot: Yeah. Mm-hmm. April Scott: so are nursery rhymes. I mean they're good. Michael Harriot: Yes. April Scott: It's a bad song. Now saying that it's it's gonna influence its listeners, I we don't know enough. Like we really don't Michael Harriot: Yeah. April Scott: know enough to say because you have folks who grew up in in Kojik households, never heard secular music into college, and then they went on and did so it's like we don't know all the things that influence. Michael Harriot: I did, bruh. I I grew up in that them how that church, bruh. And I them the them the best girls, man. I'm telling you. There was the April Scott: Okay. Michael Harriot: I'm telling you, go to friend with your April Scott: Hi, hi, I don't know what you Michael Harriot: go to church with your Pentecostal friends if you can't find a woman, bruh. Like you you're gonna have a real wild time. It's it's the old preacher's April Scott: Membinho Scarlett. Michael Harriot: daughter. yeah, my d my sisters wore them jean skirts. I'm telling you. Huh? April Scott: Did they wear to Pid they wear to pee. no, were your sisters homeschooled? Michael Harriot: Yeah. April Scott: Okay, so they didn't have to worry about jerk because we we would have some girls. man. I remember seeing them Michael Harriot: But when they went to school school, they still wore the jean skirts. I I I texted them a few weeks ago. It was like, hey, 'cause they don't they ain't in the church no more, right? So I asked them, April Scott: Yeah. Michael Harriot: Hey, do y'all still have a jean? Like how when's the last time y'all wore a jean skirt? And they were like, Fuck you. April Scott: The skirts of holiness man. Especially when Michael Harriot: Yeah. April Scott: they would wear them in PD in school. Mike, y'all can't even wear shorts to exercise? That's crazy. Michael Harriot: Yeah. Yeah, my my next book actually starts out with the story of me and my sisters like trying to convince my mom to let my older sister wear skirts to play volleyball. Right? I mean wear wear p shorts to to wear volleyball. And April Scott: Yeah, yeah, so yeah. Michael Harriot: and it turns out like my mama didn't give a fuck, right? Like like she like we was just thinking 'cause we went to the church that my mom was April Scott: Yeah. Michael Harriot: like, no, no, no. And she was like, I don't care, right? April Scott: That was easy. That Michael Harriot: But April Scott: was easy. Yeah. yeah. Michael Harriot: But but that when we talk about that, 'cause I always point out first of all, like the real conversation we should be having is how did young Miami get a record deal, right? Like that's the conspiracy that we should be talking about, right? April Scott: my god. I I that's what it's like we losing the plot. It's not I don't like why is this song being pushed is not even good. It's not even good. Michael Harriot: Right. How did it end up s like playing one hundred times on the radio that song? That's the conspiracy, not the April Scott: Yeah. It's and it's catchy. Like, cause they like, you know, there's formulas like for what makes a song like it. And it's formulaic and it's slow, you know, third grade reading level. You can so it's accessible to all. And my issue with like the young Miami's, it's not even about like respectability. I just don't think they're she's good. I think, and but she has a right to make whatever music she wants to make, right? That's a right. My issue is the imbalance. Like, cause you know, think about growing up, like Lil Cam, same, same criticisms, but there was a balance there where you you had a a pretty good you had options, you know, you had the Queen Latifas Michael Harriot: Right. April Scott: or whereas now it's just that. And that's I think, Michael Harriot: But but the April Scott: yeah. Michael Harriot: but you know what that's a criticism of, right? It's really a criticism of capitalism, right? Because what April Scott: Absolutely. Yeah. Michael Harriot: happened was all of that was underground music. There was no pop rap music. And April Scott: Yeah. Yeah. Michael Harriot: so we were choosing Queen Latifah and we could choose Lil Kim, right? Like we could April Scott: Yes. Yeah. Michael Harriot: choose NWA and the Ghetto Boys and Public Enemy. All of them were equal stars. And when capitalism April Scott: Yeah, yeah, yes, yes, yes. Michael Harriot: got involved, they say, let's go get us some more NWAs. Let's go get us some more Lil' Kims, right? And so, April Scott: Yes, yeah. Michael Harriot: and they left all like, well, we don't give a fuck about that K S1 stuff, right? Like, and April Scott: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Michael Harriot: that was that's a a critique of capitalism. April Scott: Yes. Michael Harriot: And when you even when you talk about respectability, so again, I know this conversation was raging online too, right? The tusk like f first of all, could you wear a April Scott: Yeah. I knew it. I knew it. Michael Harriot: bonnet at Tuskegee when you were there? Could you? April Scott: I would never could I So yeah. Michael Harriot: No, I'm not asking would you? Because I don't think you would. Because I you so for for background, right? You you already mentioned that you went to Tuskegee. I went to Auburn, which is like right next door. And many st April Scott: Right down the same. Michael Harriot: students who go to Tuskegee that live off campus live in Auburn. So I had next door neighbors who April Scott: Yeah. Yeah. Michael Harriot: would tell me, like, you so lucky, man. Y'all like y'all y'all could wear hats in the building and all of that. could you actually wear or do you think you If you wore a bonnet to class, would your teacher have said something? April Scott: My teacher would have said, Are you okay? Like, because the norm, especially, so I would I was at Tuskegee 01 to 05. We dressed like, and it's you know, it's just different. So that's kind Michael Harriot: Mm. April Scott: of why some of us old heads are like, I would never, because like it was a fashion show. Like the only people that dressed bunny were the athletes because they had just came from a morning practice. Michael Harriot: Practice yeah. April Scott: But many of them, after that 8 a.m. class, they go to their dorm and change. So It's like you did no one had to tell you not to because it was not it was just unheard of. And not to say that you we were like in three-piece businesses, we just put clothes on like black what what was Kanye's is is black folks right to rock that ice, black folks sold rock that go like I feel like it's in us to Michael Harriot: Right. April Scott: to like put on. And so you got a group. Yeah, so you Michael Harriot: We wanna stunt. April Scott: got a group of us in one split, you're not coming. with your butt, you're just not doing it. Now the cafeteria. Now that's the only one with this the the code that I was like, I think the cafeteria should be off limits. Because like, you know, you're literally getting up out of bed to make breakfast Michael Harriot: You might get up out of bed in the morning and go get you some purple. Mm. April Scott: ends at nine. You just woke up. You're not about to get fully glammed up to go. so the the I saw the respectability, this is where I'm like, this is another one where I think terms have been Michael Harriot: Misappropriate it. April Scott: misappropriate. It's kind of like when it means everything, then it means nothing at the same time. So kind of like neurodivergence. Like we Michael Harriot: Right. April Scott: use it for everything to the point where we are now watering down what it actually was created to encapsulate. And so, like with respectability politics, I think we should always examine our frames and how we believe about something, right? So when this stuff came out, I was like, why am I in support of it? I'm in support of it because I'm raised Southern, Black, and Christian. Michael Harriot: Yes. April Scott: so that influences my lens on a lot of things. So when I think about like why, well, why do I not like the idea of a bonnet versus a do-rag? And then what's and I was like, well, because I was raised that house clothes are for the house, outside is for outside. And it had nothing to do with white gays or white people. Because you're representing your family. It was about us. Yes. Michael Harriot: Yes. It was actually more about black gays, right? Yes. April Scott: Yes, it had nothing to do like when you think about church, you want to white people at St. Paul AME. So Michael Harriot: Yes. April Scott: all of it was about our own culture, our gaze, what it means to represent your family, to represent yourself when you step out. So while you know you could still wear a t shirt and jeans to class, that's fine. I would never get there. Was one time I wore I went to class with sweats on. Who knows what was going on? I never wore sweats, but I went, it was a really rough time. My teacher, my poly science teacher, Dr. Fields, after class, she said, Hey, are you okay? And that's to me the difference with the HBC culture. It wasn't just she didn't write me up. It was no, I'm sure there was a but she but she noticed. She was like, That's not how you usually show up. What's wrong? And something was wrong. So could you wear a bonnet? Sure. No one was wearing them out, maybe on weekends. That's it, in the cafeteria. But to class, what? Okay. Michael Harriot: Yeah, I mean I always point out I was having this conversation this weekend with a friend of mine who was on the other side of the argument and I was like, So let's say Michelle Obama showed up at the inauguration in a bonnet, right? Like I don't know if you could say definitively it would be wrong, but you would feel a way about it, right? April Scott: Right. Yes. Yes. Michael Harriot: So we all agree that we feel we have a certain standard for certain situations. April Scott: Yeah, yeah. Michael Harriot: Right. So all this argument is about is what standard fits this situation. And I always April Scott: Right. Right. Michael Harriot: argue that, like, if you didn't go to Tuskegee, you don't revere that institution like other people did. Right. So you don't have that standard for Tuskegee that some of those people who are writing those policies who have been invested in the institution have. I don't think it's about respectability, right? Right. April Scott: No. Yes. Yes. It's not. It's a standard. It's about a standard that they have decided for themselves for the institution. And I hate the fact that it's, you know, juxtaposed against whiteness. Cause to me, that's the true anti-blackness. It ain't the policy. It's the fact that you think it's being done for the approval of white people. No, it's being done because they're saying for our campus, this is how we want our students to show up. and I was just talking about this whole idea because now you know the PN State thing has happened. I was like, they weren't wearing do-rags. I'm like, do you actually think the people who wrote that policy believe that do rags and bonnets are a sign of criminal activity? No, it's just saying we want you to look presentable. You could still be doing X, Y, and Z, but like it's Michael Harriot: Yeah. April Scott: because sometimes that argument was going, well, you're you know, professionalism, which I agree, but some of it is just decorum. And that is not always anti black. Michael Harriot: The other thing is, right? Like, I don't know why we ex we have this conversation with the expectation that that any institution between high school where you have a dress code, most 99% of them, and the workplace, which is gonna have a dress code, 99% of them. Like there's this area where we like telling you what to wear, it should be off limits. Like I have I never had that expectation, right? April Scott: Ever. Yeah. Ever. Now, what I don't want students like kicked out for it. So that was my Michael Harriot: Right. April Scott: thinking. Is like Saski had a dress code when I was there. So the dress code is a new this policy, has been around at minimum since 2022. I found an old handbook. Same thing, Michael Harriot: Yes. April Scott: D Rags, no bunny. So to me, my thought, this is the the researcher in me or the social scientist in me was like something must have happened to. Michael Harriot: That was exactly my argument that a teacher questioned a student and the student said, You can't tell me that. And the teacher said, Well, we have a policy against wearing hats in the building. Because you can't wear a hat at Tuskegee. Like men April Scott: Right. Right. Michael Harriot: can't wear a hat at they will tell you to take off your hat or leave this building if you have April Scott: Right. Right. Michael Harriot: a hat. And a student brought a teacher used that for a bonnet, and the student said, Well, it don't say bonnet. And thus 'cause any other thing that makes sense, that's to me the most likely or h thing that happened. April Scott: I think either it was getting out of hand because the old policy that I found, I was sending it to you from like 2023. I found a online handbook, it specified Bundes and Durant. So I'm like, it's Michael Harriot: Yes. April Scott: always, it was, it's been named at least three academic years. So Michael Harriot: Yes. April Scott: I'm like, did did it get too far to where the president walks on campus or maybe, you know, because he's new and it's like, whoa, he's mad that I heard. Michael Harriot: And he's kinda conservative too, let's be honest. Yeah, yeah. He he he he he bringing a MAGA people on campus, but let's we'll get past that. Yeah. April Scott: Yeah, yeah. I know, I know. We got a little but yeah, and so that was my thinking. Like I'm gonna say what I was envisioning. Do you remember the scene in Tyler Perry's I forgot Michael Harriot: No, I don't. I don't you don't even have to Yeah, I don't. April Scott: who I was talking to? There's a scene in one of the movies, I think it's family reunion, where the the matriarchs of the family walk out on the porch and they're scanning the land and Michael Harriot: Mm. April Scott: there's like girls twerking, which I thought was odd because it's a family reunion. And I'm like, I've never Michael Harriot: Mm. There's nobody black the bla black folks ain't trying to get no family union around their grandmamas. Yeah. April Scott: No, it's weird. Booty shorts, there's men in the corner pairing dice. It's Tyler Perry, so it's heavy-handed. And so it's Maya Angelo, Cicely, Maya Angelo's Cicely Tyson. I forgot the third woman. And Cicely Tyson gives this monologue about like this land and y'all here shaking and gyrating. How pull up your pants. It's like one of those speeches. And to me, Michael Harriot: Mm-hmm. April Scott: that's what I feel happened. I feel like Dr. Brown walked on campus one day and said, wait a minute. I'm saying Bundes of the class, dude. But that was my question, is what was the catalyst for this? I don't believe it's to to punish students to, but for some something had to have happened, either the teachers and professors are complaining that that made him say, okay, we got to amplify this because it's getting out of hand. But yeah, it's not the whole respectability politics is like respect is not a white thing. It's not a white concept. So when we turn the Michael Harriot: I I I don't like the people who are framing it as respectability or anti black like like this ain't had nothing to do with white people. Nobody in this pro in this whole conversation was talking about white people except you. April Scott: at all. Like have you been to ski? It's about them and their image. Michael Harriot: Exactly. April Scott: It's like you chose a low-key bougie school, like you think like it's yeah. Michael Harriot: Ya y you know, you know. But again, that's that's the point of asking somebody who knows what they're talking about, right? Like everybody got an opinion, right? But April Scott: Yes. Everyone. Yeah. Yeah. Michael Harriot: the the last thing I wanted to ask you, 'cause I know we've we've we've gone way past the time, right? Is April Scott: Uh-huh. Michael Harriot: if you were like we there's this whole Facebook trial going on. Setting aside like all these narratives about mental health aside, right? Setting aside all of this misinformation that we get, right? How in in your experience and what you've read and seen, April Scott: Yeah. Michael Harriot: how bad for us is the internet? Like our mental development, our how we see ourselves, like April Scott: Yeah. Yeah. Michael Harriot: is is artificial intelligence making us dumb like w is April Scott: Yeah. Michael Harriot: Is the April Scott: Yeah. Michael Harriot: internet itself creating a mental health or a crisis in psychology? April Scott: You know, I try to not label things good or bad because it's always Michael Harriot: Yes. April Scott: like I am worried for the future, particularly our young folks, because of the internet and the exposure and what's out there, and and there's no regulation, right? There's there is nothing regulated. You can put all the safeguards on your kids' phone if you want to, but you can't put it on a friend's phone. Like, Michael Harriot: Mm. April Scott: and with Facebook, Facebook. And and even TikTok, like all these sites are created to keep you on them. So they do things to make it addictive. Like there was this article in Facebook to because I can't find it anymore. I wish I could find my hard copy, where it was article of Facebook were sued because they were found to be manipulating people's emotions. So what they would do is they would purposely fix your fear. This is an old article, it's like from 2014, 2013. They would Fix your feed to show you things that purposely made you upset or really sad Michael Harriot: Yes. April Scott: because they know that these emotions will make you stay on longer. which you're not supposed to do that to people. And so they got in trouble. They were, they were called to task on it. That art, I can't even find it. I don't know if they wiped it from the internet or what. So these sites, they are making them so that, you know, we have kids on with with internet addiction. Like, I'm not even kids, adults too, if you were to be real. So in the United States, a lot of the studies around internet use, particularly with teens and children, show that longer that they are aligned, the worse they fear. The longer that they are aligned, the more anxiety. The longer they're aligned, the more, the lower their self-esteem. So we have the evidence that shows that it is not healthy. But then there are some international studies that show something different. They actually show that actually it's a positive attribute. So there's something happening either with the studies or with our population where Why is it when it's focused on the US it's so bad, but when it's na international studies, we don't see the same thing. Michael Harriot: But th many of those international studies, like in Europe the in the UK and in the in China and all those other countries, they have restrictions already in place. Like they can't assess the harmful parts because they don't they outlaw the harmful parts before it got started, right? Like ours is capitalism and the cause I know, April Scott: Yeah. Here we go. Yes. Michael Harriot: right? Like threads. I can see them feeding me. I took I actually took the the all my social media off my phone. So if I get on social media, it has to be in front of a computer, right? April Scott: That's Mark. That's smart. Michael Harriot: But I can see threads feeding me every single thing that would make me argue. Not make me upset, right? It feeds me stuff about people arguing about religion. It feeds me stuff about April Scott: Yeah. Right. Michael Harriot: race, you know, pe racial arguments, right? April Scott: Yeah. Yeah. Michael Harriot: And you have to I always again a lot of these critiques are c critiques of capitalism. You think about forming a company and you have literally more money than anyone else in the world, and you hire psychiatrists and psychologists to say, How can we make people stay on this thing? Right? Like, April Scott: Yes, yes, yes. Michael Harriot: and there is no precedent to say, hey, what if they get addicted? Because it's never happened before, it doesn't exist in before in the history of the world before. What April Scott: Yes, Michael Harriot: would you do? Right. Like would April Scott: yeah. Michael Harriot: you say stop 'cause we don't want to make too much money, right? April Scott: And and then we get to make more because we can sell advertisements now. So Michael Harriot: Yeah. April Scott: we can it's I think it's it's dangerous, especially because people are losing a sense of reality. Like I don't know, I remember when I was a kid, there was this show that broke down TV. Like it would break Michael Harriot: Mm. April Scott: down the commercial and show you, like, hey, you know, that's not really real food. It's actually caught and it was catered to kids and it was kind of explaining that television is make-believe, like it's not real, right? That's not happening online. They're and adults are falling for it too. Like the amount of skits that I see my peers fall for. I'm like, my god, y'all not realizing that this is fake. This is not real, but people are taking it in and they're writing think pieces. They're then now making a video about I call them hypergeticals, but like man spent $300 on a date, and then the woman, it's like this isn't real. This is made making you argue. So I I do think. We gotta figure out some plans for for online, especially for our youth, but ourselves as well. Of it's not helpful. The last thing I'll say, because I know we've been running, is years ago I was in a neurosight class and the instructor was saying like our brains haven't even evolved to respond to fluorescent lights, unnatural lights. Michael Harriot: Right. April Scott: And he was basically saying, like, it takes a while for us to evolve. And which is why like a lot of off 'cause like it's just not healthy, like it doesn't make you feel good. 'Cause he was like, We have Michael Harriot: I don't know if you remember this, and I might pull up the I think I have the clip. I April Scott: Yeah. Michael Harriot: asked you when you were in grad school, what one of my theories was that remember when they outlawed the regular lights and they said everything has to be LED? And I was like, Well, you know, April Scott: Yeah. Michael Harriot: like that means we'll receive less vitamin D. And April Scott: Yeah. Michael Harriot: which helps you fight the pr helps your physical body fight depression and I April Scott: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Michael Harriot: I predicted that we were gonna have more cases of depression. Our brains will never get like it's how evolution works, it's not we're not our great great great great grandchildren won't be alive when our our brains adjust to that, right? April Scott: Right. Right. Michael Harriot: What about like in now the internet literally a lot of times is our light. April Scott: Yes. Yep. Yes. Yeah. Michael Harriot: Right, like it's the light that we we're seeing. And again, these are people who are not in your community. All of the people who are building your sensibilities, how you see yourself, are not in your well, I get studies show now that like about thirty percent of the people on your on your feed is is a bot. April Scott: Right, right. They're not even human. They're not human. And our brains have not caught up to we were never supposed to be exposed to this many thoughts at one time. Like Michael Harriot: Yeah. April Scott: we just weren't. We were never supposed to know this much about people and how they think. And so you have that more. Michael Harriot: Yeah, we weren't supposed to know how Cam Newton spelled eclectic. Like there was no scenario in which we'd know that ten years ago, there was no scenario that we'd know how Cam Newton spelled eclectic. April Scott: DJ Envy's wife showed him how to clean his butt. Like, why do we need to know that? I didn't Michael Harriot: Yeah, like yeah, we're not n we're not supposed to know that. That's a thing we're not supposed to know. April Scott: ask for that. And so you think about what's the impact on it. I don't know if you've seen it was a Netflix series called Adolescence. Phenomenal. Phenomenal. And it, Michael Harriot: Beautiful. Like yeah. April Scott: my God. That scene with the psychologist, I tell people like that's if you want to know what it looks like in real life, that that is a perfect. I mean, it was so well done. Michael Harriot: Yeah, that epis that whole episode where she like yeah, it was it was one of the best episodes of TV in a in recent time. April Scott: Yes. Yes. I said that's a forensic energy. That is forensic and for so to answer your question. There's benefits of social media because there's connection that you can get. Like I think of the Michael Threats, the librarian guy, who Michael Harriot: Mm. Yes. April Scott: is always open about his mental health struggles and the amount of love that he receives from people and people check on him. And like he recently said that he wasn't feeling safe and he's in hospital. And to see him, like I see the comments in there showing love, but then you'll have the flip side where someone was like, Well, I'm gonna write PVS because I don't think we should be. leading these shows for kids because it's like why so you want to take someone's income away who has already stated there's they're struggling or dealing or you know navigating chronic depression and and then step like so it's like it's it's both you have the support the love and then you'll have a jerk who's like well I'm gonna call your job because I don't think you should be open about this. And instead of me just scrolling ignoring it. No, I gotta take it a step further. So it's like Michael Harriot: Yeah, it it's kinda like like your whole profession, right? It it's like we wouldn't have known about therapy, about we wouldn't be talking having these conversations about mental health and depression without these connections on the internet and social media. But we also April Scott: Yeah, yeah. Michael Harriot: wouldn't be thinking that, hey man, I gotta be a high value woman. April Scott: Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Michael Harriot: And I gotta find me somebody who's really inclector so I can live my best life. Right, right, right. April Scott: Yeah, and we can't go to Cheesecake Factory also. Michael Harriot: So i I guess there's a givea thing. It's as complicated as the brain, right? Because it is our brain now. April Scott: Yeah, it is. I think we need to I think we need to be way more cautious than we are now about how much we take in, how we're engaging with it, because it's I mean, just we saw what happened with the election, like how they Michael Harriot: Yeah. April Scott: were gonna use Facebook to steal an election to say well, not steal, but to influence Michael Harriot: Yeah, and but they use psychologists and psychiatrists to do it. April Scott: Yes. Michael Harriot: We found out later, right? So yeah. April Scott: Yeah, I mean same thing with the military, who you think helps come up with torture tactics? Michael Harriot: Yeah. April Scott: Yeah. Michael Harriot: I guess are there people who essentially go to school to be professional torturers? I I mean you April Scott: I don't think you signed up for that at the beginning because I I was considering going into the military as for an internship. Michael Harriot: Well well maybe you do though, right? Like so when April Scott: Yeah. Michael Harriot: I was in high school, I was offered a NSA scholarship, a scholarship for the National Security Agency. But you would have to like I think do two summers with the with a military or some form of the government, like CIA or whatever. But April Scott: Yeah. Michael Harriot: they gave me like they took me into a room. This is a cr I I'm I don't know how I had never mentioned this to you. They took me to the room, they gave me this long assessment. And during the assessment, like I was an only worse person in the room. But there was like every now and then like there'd be like a clap or a sound and I'd be like, and then I get back. But they were that was part of the asset thing that they would just it really wasn't the test that I was taking. April Scott: Yeah, I used to. Michael Harriot: They were judging other stuff. And I bet you somebody who took that scholarship right now came up with waterboarding. April Scott: Like Michael Harriot: Or wrote that young Miami song. April Scott: That's in full circle and that's how we go. Michael Harriot: Exactly, exactly. So I wanna thank you for coming. Thank you for black splaining Is the internet April Scott: Yeah. Michael Harriot: making us crazy with Doctor April Sky. April Scott: Just make it. Thank you. Thank you for the invite. It's always great talking to me. All right. Michael Harriot: All right. Thanks a lot.