Evan Wessman: What is your name in reference to? What's the sound effect a brand new can of soda makes when you open it? That I would never have gotten that. my brother opened a can of soda a couple of weeks ago when the show was still airing. There's a great meme to be made of that, I think. If you can put that with like a Coke ad. That feels like a very Vine era thing to do is just like have a little Vincent D'Nofrio pop up every time somebody like does the thing. They made a gif of him opening the door and punching the guy. ⁓ at the when he says boo boo. He's so funny. It's absurd how funny he is. Like it's not even fair how funny he is. I do he's probably the best actor in the series. How glorious he is to watch. They also made a gif of when he was standing at Karen's jail cell and he goes, Ha! Hello guys, welcome back to Interior Analysis. I'm Angel Michelli. I'm Evan Westman. I'm Jelani T. Kelly, aka ⁓ that sound effect that ⁓ a brand new can of soda makes when you open it. And today we're gonna be talking about ⁓ I'll make it I'll make our conversation before the cold opens that everyone is caught up. Angel, I think you missed that. Okay. I think so. Yeah. It's a bisque Yeah. ⁓ okay. I apologize. I was not there for that part of the conversation. That's on us for not catching you up. Anyway, today we're gonna have a different conversation, and this one's gonna be about Daredevil Born Again, season two, which I've been very excited for. We talked about Born Again Season One pretty recently. ⁓ and we've you know talked about Daredevil on the podcast a bunch just leading up to this. But season two is done. And I don't know, in my opinion, this was a market improvement over season one, which I think a lot of fans expected considering that the creative team that had overhauled last season is finally, you know, taking over this season entirely. So it was all one vision as opposed to last year that was a little bit of a mess, even if there were still good parts to it. But yeah, do you guys want to jump in with your initial reactions first or you want me to go first? Evan's wrong. Well, they don't know how Evan's wrong yet. It's fine. Just they just need to know he's wrong. They're gonna figure it out once he starts talking. Yeah, I think fans will like people who are fans of this show are gonna not like me or what I have to say this episode. Get him. I think in light of that, Jelani, maybe you should go first so that people know they have an ally in this. It was a good season. It was a fun watch. It was it was it was intense. It was really well written. It was intense. It was really well written. It was well acted. I didn't have any complaints about this season other than that I don't remember much of it. I missed Punisher this season. ⁓ Jessica Jones has always been a nothing character to me. I do think that it's good they're putting her with Luke Cage though, 'cause it's comic accurate. BB ho Daniel by continuing to do those mayoral updates. See, you're wrong about about Jessica Jones, but No. No. Yeah. No I'm not. Fisk is too funny. He carries the show. Bullseye is also hilarious. He carries the show. Matt carries the show. Everybody carries the show. The team effort. ⁓ so as Jelani teased, I did not enjoy this. It's not like the worst thing ever. I do think there are good moments. There are good episodes. I'll save some of that for my topic, but I was bored for a lot of this season. I said in my notes most I might draw that back to like half the time. Sorry guys, this show just is not for me. I think it it's a wow. It's a Marvel problem and like I You can't see me but I'm shaking my head. Yeah, I mean I expect I'll be the minority opinion here and I expect most of go ahead and call go ahead and call the show a slur while you're at it. Go ahead. Why would I do that? I don't hate it enough. If I was going to call Come up with the slur to call the show and then call it that. slop. No, it's not it's not even bad enough to be slop. Cancel Nah, I'll I'll I'll throw mid at it though. I think mid is i if if mid is considered a slur, then I'll throw that at it. I mean it it's MCU midness. I'll I'll give you there is there's some good stuff here. I liked episode five. I liked that like parallel with the backstory with Foggy. That was a good episode. The finale was alright. It was there were like two good fight scenes, like the one with Jessica Jones was decent and the one where they ⁓ broke the people out of the cages in episode three. That was a cool fight scene. Rest of the show don't need it. Do not care. I guess I'm glad you guys enjoyed it. And I'm not mad at you guys. Like my my topic is all about my time having been wasted, but that is directed at Marvel. I'm not mad at you guys, especially like How can I be mad at you guys when I picked the entire Hobbit trilogy? Like this. Well we didn't write the show Evan. No. No. But like I have no I'm saying I have no right to be upset at you guys for picking this show when I made you watch that. You know, I especially I this is like Deadpool and Wolverine a couple of years ago. Everyone else seems to I mean, I I wouldn't say everyone enjoys that. I saw some of that. Yeah. I I liked that less than the vast majority of people though. And people, you know, say good things about this show. You guys are not the only ones who hyped up the old show to me ⁓ beforehand, and it's just I I don't like it. Where do you want to start with topics on this? I'm I'm good on my reactions. ⁓ I didn't even say my initials. I was just reaction but you guys go first. ⁓ yeah, sorry. Wow, first you called the show a slur, and now you're calling Angel a slur. What? That's crazy. Wow, Evan. Yeah, I I can't excuse this. You know, I could just leave for the whole episode if that would make things better. I can't I can't excuse this. You know, I've been covering your ass for too long. No, I'm kidding. You were the one throwing me under the bus every time. Yeah, and I was driving the business. Anyway. So whatever. But we do have limited we do have limited time, guys. So I'm gonna just jump in with Sorry. So mine no, it's fine. I really do like this show. ⁓ as I said before. But mine are a little bit in between you guys. I'm definitely leaning more towards where Jelani's at, where like I really, really, really love the show, especially compared to last season. But I do admit, and I was thinking this throughout, so this isn't Evan, you know, influencing my opinion. I do admit that there were moments that I felt like were really slow. Not upon a rewatch, which I noticed, because I managed to rewatch about three quarters of the season. I'm almost I was almost at the end of episode six, like earlier today. I didn't get a chance to re-watch the last couple episodes, but I remember them pretty clearly, so it's fine. I found whereas last season I was like really into the Kingpin stuff because it was the most consistent, I found that to be the slowest part for me this season. I'm not sure why. But other than a couple of characters, I was like really uninvested in a lot of them. I mean, you guys know from last episode, I do not like Heather at all. I think she is incredibly difficult to watch. And it's not the actress. The actress is great. I do not enjoy the way that the direction they're going with her character. And I think them ingraining her more into Kingpin's story has started to bring it down just a little bit, especially with this like weird kind of romance she's developing with Buck and I'm not sure where that's going or if that's going anywhere, because I also don't know if Buck's alive, which we'll get to when we talk more about the finale. But yeah, it just He is. Yeah, he's gotta be. He's gotta be. It's just weird that they never check in with him at the end. But either way, like there are elements of that that are good. Like he's really interesting. I love the direction that they went with Daniel this season. I think he's probably one of the better characters within that story. I just found that in general to be a lot less interesting than, you know, Matt and Karen being on the run, Matt's stuff with Bullseye, all the stuff they bring in toward the end with Jessica Jones, like it just wasn't doing it for me. But the rest of the season is really good. I remember talking to my sister about this, and one thing we both really loved as we were watching it week to week was that it is a very action-oriented season. There's action in pretty much every episode. Whereas like in the Netflix show, They had 13 episodes, so every episode didn't necessarily have an action sequence. This one not only has action sequences all the time, but really good action sequences that make sense with the story. And I thought that was really, really great. Because it's hard to integrate those, especially this often. And they never feel shoehorned in and they're really well directed and choreographed. ⁓ I was saying too, this is like the team-up season. Like you get so many team ups. With people during the season and it's so much fun to watch. ⁓ Matt does, and I just love it. He he gets a team up fight with ⁓ Swordsman, with Jessica Jones, he has one with ⁓ Tiny White Tiger, he has one I just that giant fight at the end of the season's really cool. I mean, even he kind of has a team up fight with Karen too, which is really cool. ⁓ she gets a lot more to do this season. They're kind of making her like Punisher-ish, which is interesting to watch their dynamic change. Because it doesn't like kill their relationship either. It just makes it more interesting to watch throughout the season. They're not just like on the same page all the time. So yeah. I really I really enjoyed it. I think the dynamics are really good. I think season three, which is definitely gonna be the defender season, is gonna be awesome. And we can maybe talk more about that at the end if we have time. You know, speculation on what comes next. But yeah, as far as topics go, I know Jelani's yours was stakes, mine was the violent was the relationship between violence and justice and Evan. Yours was how your time was wasted. So you know what I want to do? I want to start with Evan's topic about Okay. Why why he's No, let's skip it. You you want to skip his topic entirely? Yep. He don't get a topic this this episode. You know, I was low key considering not making one. 'cause I was struggling to figure out what to talk about. If we're really going with it, my topic is called this could have been an email. I'm very tired of Marvel wasting our time. And I was thinking today, so I I kind of framed this topic as like a Marvel problem. I think it's partly a streaming TV problem as well. They're kind of combining. With the connected story of the MCU, I don't mind if every individual movie or show doesn't advance the long-term story that much. But if it's not going to do that, then I want it to still be worth the time that you're putting into There's a few units of visual storytelling. You have short films, TV episodes, movies, TV seasons, and since we're talking about the MCU, I'll throw in post-credit scenes. And Marvel almost always seems to make it like one thing longer than the content of the story warrant. Sometimes even a little bit bigger than that. Like there are a few MCU movies that I'm like, this should have just been a post-credit scene. ⁓ for the amount of stuff that it does, you didn't make it worth my time, and it's not that important to the long term story you're doing. So why did you spend a hundred and fifty million dollars on it and waste two hours of our time? And i if I thought they couldn't do that, then I would be less mad about it. But when they need to be efficient, they are. And they have made a few movies that I think justify their entire runtime. Like Black Panther is a full good movie. I think all four Avengers movies and Civil War, those are full good movies that are in some places very efficient. Like Civil War, Endgame and Infinity War are tight movies that put a lot in there. So they can't tell me that like they can't be efficient. Is it Ultron? I'd say even Ultron justifies its runtime. Like people don't like it as much, but like you at least have a lot of characters in there that you're doing stuff with. And I would give them a a few flops. I'll even you know, I I'm I'm coming out as a as a bit of a villain this episode, but I'm gonna show a little bit of I don't know about growth, but like my favorite MCU punching bag, I'll give Guardians of the Galaxy. That justifies most of its runtime. Like that deserved to be a full movie, not a post credit scene. But This is like the first of the MCU TV shows that I've watched all of and I was like By the end of it, I went back through and I said this about season one also. There is a movie worth of content in here that is actually worthwhile. So why did you make six and a half hours? Like it it's almost the same problem as The Hobbit. I don't think it's as bad as The Hobbit, but you took something that like I was thinking about a a lot of things as a comparison. One of them was the Harry Potter movies, I think, do a really good job. Those are adaptations, but they do a really good job of condensing those plots to what is necessary. And they end up being longer than average movies. And then with the last book, they're like, okay, this is a little too much for a reasonably length movie. So we're gonna cut it in two. And I feel like you you do see the reverse of that where too much, like the Watchman movie I'd say is an example of something where too much is packed into one movie. I think the MCU always makes the mistake of having a lot of filler. It's not like there is nothing here that's worthwhile, but there was so much of this that I was just like why do you feel the need to make a mid TV show when you could have made a pretty solid movie out of this. Like I think I think if you put all of the good moments of this show and like tighten that up, you have a decent two hour movie on your hands from what's in this show. And it feels like calculated midness. Again, I don't feel like you guys wasted my time picking this, but I'm really sick of Marvel like just giving us way more than needs to be there. Like Final comparison, then I'll throw it to you guys. For Green Day fans in the crowd, this should have been American Idiot and they made Jesus of Suburbia instead. Jesus of Suburbia is a good song but justifies its length. But it does it does a lot of things in that ten minutes. They should have made American Idiot. What are your guys' responses? I feel like I'm gonna play Evan's advocate a little bit. And agree with some of your points. So maybe I should go first. Because I feel like Jelani's gonna flip out a little bit. ⁓ no, go ahead. Cause cause I'm I'm I'm about ready to to to end the call. I'm gonna let you build up your anger, but I'll I'll go first. So I kind of understand what you're saying. I think it's similar to some of what I was saying in my initials. Like there were parts of this season where I was genuinely having a hard time getting through some of it. And maybe and in my opinion, it's because it was weekly. Cause when I binged it, it wasn't as bad. Like the kingpin stuff. I think that there's less I don't want to say less direction when it comes to the kingpin stuff, but there were points where I'm ki I was kind of confused, like, why are they doing this at this time in this way? And I think that's some of the problem. Was I think that it makes it they don't always have a clear vision of what they want to do. So like my my biggest example of this is probably the kingpin boxing match. That's so Cool of an idea and I love it, but at the same time, why was he doing that? I said, And they teased it for like two episodes. They did tease it for like two episodes and it was epic and awesome and funny, but it was also like I wasn't sure from a storyline perspective why that was happening. I think he they said something about it being a charity boxing match, but I don't know how Kingpin potentially killing somebody in the ring as the mayor of New York is anywhere near a good PR idea. Because I'm pretty sure he did kill that guy. And I guess it was No, he a hundred percent did. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the show is a comedy. The show does have comedic elements. The show is a comedy. Yeah. ⁓ yeah. Come on, man, you're better than this. And he punched him and he went flying and broke a mirror. ⁓ yeah. We'll talk about Kingpin's super power. We'll talk about Kingpin's superpowers. He know he absolutely i e he's he's crazy this season. And I I think they lean into it really well. But that those are where like I think some of the filler comes in, is where they can't really figure out what exactly they want to say when they want to say it. I think the part that they have the high the bait the best grasp on is, you know, Matt and Karen being on the run and, you know, Matt's stuff with Bullseye and all that stuff, which does make the rest of it kind of feel like filler. And I think where they could have improved some of that is They definitely do better with some of the supporting characters. Like I feel like Kirsten gets more to do. Not too much, but enough that she doesn't like overstay her welcome, but she also has a little bit more character than she did last season. But then they don't do enough with other characters that I thought were gonna get more. Like, they don't really do too much with Cherry after the first couple episodes, and I think he's better this season. I think they know more of like what his relationship is gonna be to Matt. They do nothing with Angie Kim. at all, which I feel like is a missed opportunity because I think the actress is really good. They don't really do anything with Angela either, even though she kind of becomes White Tiger. Like they they give her little bits and pieces, but I think what I noticed now is they don't spend enough time with these characters individually in a way that ⁓ Evan, you don't know this because you haven't seen it, but the original show I feel like did. They give individual storylines to characters like Karen and Foggy Like outside of what Matt or Kingpin are doing. And so it feels like the show is switching between storylines, but in a way that's moving. And in this, it feels like there's two or three main main characters, and then everyone else kind of just jumps in when they can. So I do get what you're saying. It definitely feels like there were parts where they were spinning their wheels just a little bit. But I don't know that this is. Only a movie's worth of content. I feel like if they tried to pack this into two hours, it could have worked, but it would have been tight. And I think that there's a reason that Daredevil is a show because the structure of TV, they can spread some of this stuff out where they need it to. You know, you can get an individual episode that's something like a flashback episode. It definitely would have been tight. Like two hours might have been too short. But two and a half, you could have figured it out, I think. Or If it has to be a T V series, like this is where I I'll throw them a bone for like this is maybe a streaming problem and not a Marvel problem, is that I think it th this is just true of a lot of shows that I've seen where I'm like, You got I've said this about every season of the boys. I think they always get two episodes more than they really need. And it just leads to like either a couple episodes that don't mean anything or large stretches of each episode where I'm like What what are we doing with like wha this is so irrelevant, I don't care. It's not as bad as the boys. I don't want to hear that. I I don't think every season of the boys is awful about that, but I do think I've said that about every individual season of that show is like i I I'm saying this as like a broad streaming problem, but I think it's true here too. I think they got more than they needed and I I'm not a fan. I I get what you're saying there. I think that this is closer to that issue where there's a maybe a little too much time, if anything, compared to other shows where I felt like there wasn't enough time. Like I think I've talked before on the show about Falcon and Winter Soldier, how like it definitely needed at least one more episode, like it's crazy. And like Echo also did, because Echo they ended so abruptly it was insane. And they packed so much into it. You watched Echo in so little time. Yeah, I watched Echo. Did you not watch Echo? No. Echo's good. Mostly. I feel like they lost the plot a little bit because they did lose an episode and then they kinda had to rush it. There were too many studio notes. Do not sell in the show. That's a whole other show. I'll I'll sell it to you off screen. I understand what you're saying. I just think that as only a movie length would still have like not fit in everything that did work about it. Like I think there's a lot of reasons the flashback show is the flashback episode, which I think is episode five. is the way it is and it works the way it does because it shows how Matt's past with Foggy is directly impacting the present day in a way that I think would not have worked as well if we had just had a short, like what would have been like maybe a five minute sequence in a movie because they would have had to just, you know, shoehorn it in very abruptly and it would not I I don't think that it would have worked. Like there's stuff about this that wouldn't that I think wouldn't work so well. But I'm gonna throw it to Jelani. I I'll I'll give you just before we do that, on that episode, I wanted more of that. Like I felt like that was one of the few places where they were making good use of their time. Cause like I agree, yeah, i if you put that in a movie, you would just play that like five minute scene straight and do none of that, like, flashback stuff. And the flashback stuff I thought was good. That's a good use of extra space. You give us Backstory and I also just like that. I like seeing I I think that's good flashback work. I don't think every single episode should have been that. It shouldn't have been like Godfather Part Two. But you have extra space. So if you're not going to do plot work, then give us something worthwhile. Give us character stuff. Give us cool fight scenes or something. Jelani, tell me why I'm wrong. Cause the show's funny. And it's comedy and there was a lot of building and there's a lot of things that it's building towards as far as next season and ⁓ cool. I'll skip this season then and go to next season. No, hush. I ain't done. Okay. Okay, I'm done. Okay. No, I'm joking I'm joking. Yeah, I mean you're not entirely wrong. I like the kingpin stuff just because I find Pretty much every POV I I enjoy watching, Kingpin, whenever he's on screen, he's hilarious, whether intentional or not. Just the way he speaks is funny. Bullseye, very captivating character because at this stage in his arc, I guess, he's a wild card. He's one of the good guys. Or he thinks he is. His entire like half episode where he's at the the diner and he says ⁓ my god he has a gun ⁓ so funny and and he mops the floor with all of those anti-vigilante task force people is great and I enjoy watching him he's like a a charismatic version of Dane Dehan's Harry Osbourne. I saw your note and I was like that's so true I didn't even think of that until just now, but no, that's so that's so right. It's like he's just a little off as like compared to like a regular person. It's the way he speaks and carries himself. Hey, what are you famous for? Like I could picture Dane Dahan saying that. It's like he's trying his hardest to be like a regular person. Yeah. You know, like it's like he's trying to be like, this is what a pleasant person would say. to another person, but it comes off as so unhinged because he's smiling a little bit too much and it's like his hello Karen, it's nice to see you. It's like that. Exactly. Yeah. He's just like a little weird about everything. And it's crazy because like he seemed a lot more it shows you how unstable he's getting compared to how he was in Daredevil season three. Because like back then he could interact with people in like a like a relatively normal way. But it was an act. But it was an act. But now he's putting on the act so hard because I mean I guess he he lost his mind for a little bit, more so than normal. And like he's also on drugs because of the the being in the facility. Yeah. That's true. And now he's like overcommentating 'cause he has this twisted idea that he can make up for what he did in the past and what he did to Foggy with like one really big good deed. And I think that's probably one of the more interesting parts. I feel like it's seeing him and Matt interact with each other where he's like he knows what he did was wrong, but I think it's like he logically knows. And he's like, the way that I'm gonna make up for it and deal with whatever passes for him as guilt is to like just do good things and do exactly what Daredevil's doing, but in my most extreme way. You see how this isn't even like the main character of the show, yet we found something to talk about with him. Evan. I do see that. You see how there's there's layers to this where there's it's not necessarily moving the plot forward, but there's some arc stuff to do with the character who had half an episode. And he did a couple of things in the other episodes. That's crazy how that works. And we're not even talking about Fisker Matt yet. I think it's still disproportionate. As I said, there is stuff here, it did not warrant six hours. Or six and a half, whatever it ended up being. I think it was probably closer to seven hours. You view this show as a comedy, which it is, just like the season five of the boys. Just like season five of the boys. ⁓ really? I did. My my brother and I find comedy I ⁓ we should have had him on for this episode, but we find comedy and stuff when it's supposed to be serious because we look at we we zoom out a lot of the times and just look at how goofy it is. I mean I can do that too. I f didn't find ⁓ myself in the show. You didn't. I did about one point. There was one there was one thing I don't know if this is the best time to frame this up, but 'cause we'll probably talk about them later. But there was one bit with BB and Daniel. I think it's in the second episode, where she's doing her leaks and he's like kind of on to her. He's like, If you're leaking stuff, stop it and I literally out loud went, Stop it. Get some help. Like it's such a lame way to say that. It's like Did you did you have was that the whole argument in your head? Like Yeah, no, I I I definitely agree. And then he's like, fuck, I forgot. ⁓ what was I gonna do? I watched the Sopranos entirely before this, and I was ready. ⁓ But like it's like he was trying to intimidate her and then he couldn't, which is weird because oddly last season he had a very intimidating moment. No, he didn't. And that's what makes his funny. Arguably he did. He was hilarious every time he was on screen. Because I never bought him as somebody who could be intimidating in this character role. That's what made it funny. Because there was one time. I don't think they were trying to make him as intimidating, because I think they They started to show his decline where he realized maybe that he was caught up in this really terrible thing and he had no way out. And that's why it was also funny. 'Cause he kept trying to talk his way out of out of it and he and he couldn't cause he didn't know what he was dealing with. We knew what he was dealing with, but he he he got in way too deep and it was funny to try and watch him climb his way out. And then okay. You were gonna say and then die, weren't you? N the cat's And that that's why and then he yeah, and then he died. There there was one I forget if it was this season or last season where BB like had something snuck into her coat pocket. Is this on the street? It was a season. Yeah, and and then there was like a friend. Yeah, there was a moment of of him staring at her with the smile on his face, like he knew what was up. And I was like, I can't this is too funny. There's no way this isn't intentionally funny, cause he's not intimidating. Who is he intimidating? When you use and I was saying this when we recorded last season's episode, when you use another dude's name as a threat, that's not intimidating. If you're not doing the work yourself or in that dude's name, it's not intimidating. Cause if you if i imagine I walk up to you and I'm like, hey. You know Ducky wouldn't like that, man. Like you're not scared of me. You're scared of maybe who I mentioned. Yeah. But that's that I'm not the one that's being intimidating. Yeah, I'm threatening to be a snitch. ⁓ Like that's all I'm doing. Yeah. No, that's so right. That's so so no, he But that's the whole point. That's why he dies is because he's not intimidating and he figures it out too late. Ultimately, I liked his character this season because he does make the right decision. He decides to f help somebody he cares about, which I don't know that I fully bought their relationship because like ⁓ no. Why so my my whole thing was why does she like him? I get toward the end when he started to make the right decision and ultimately he spent a good chunk of the season covering for her and protecting her. But why does she like him? She was using him. That's what that scene with Karen was in the part. I don't know though, because I think that by the end, they kind of make it seem like she does like him at least a little bit. Like she is, like not into him, into him, but at the very least she does actually seem to care about him. And nothing he did in season one, especially, but even in this season, really like I could see after he died maybe feeling bad and sad, but other than that, I just don't understand their friendship or relationship or whatever it was. Like I don't fully get it from her side. I think that could have used a little more work. I agree with that. Yeah. Yes and no, 'cause like there's a certain extent to which him as an actor, him as a character, if he wasn't such a bootlicker, then I think he would have some kind of charm to him. I can see that. I can see it being like, you know, he's he seems like someone who might be fun to hang out with, who could grow on you. The character doesn't have enough personality for that. I think the actor seems like he could. But he's also too like. Michael Gandalfini is great. Yeah, like he seems like he might be a fun hang IRL. But I think he's just he's too spineless. Like, I just can't really respect somebody like him. Exactly. And I think they were maybe leaning on his just like He's got a very like next door neighbor, like seems like a generally nice person face. Like I would have probably like gone and played Smash Bros at his house if I was next door to him as a kid. But since he grew up to be this, you lose all respect. And I think they were trying to force it a little too much. And I think it also was too obvious that she was playing him. Like, I don't there there was the one moment like I think the episode that he died where she like kinda made a move on him and he like, No, don't, don't. Like I don't buy it for a second. And that's the thing, I didn't buy that because it felt like she had been using him up to this point. Right. Like it felt a little bit forced there. Like he's not charming enough that you would have him i if he had been like I could see it maybe happening after he like puts himself in danger for her. But then obviously he dies. And I did appreciate that he died because I was like you you need that. You he can't stick around after that. He is his only value is loyalty. So as soon as that outs the w the window, he has to die. So I was like, That's a good end to that storyline. I'll give that was that was one thing I thought they executed well. I thought both of them were a little stupid. Yes, yes, actually I'm I'm good to move to Jelani's topic there if if we want. Yeah. Well actually before that I wanna point out I'm pretty sure I heard that that was not the original plan. I think that happened after the season was already finished filming. They made that as like a post I I heard that on like another channel. I don't know if it's true, but that they kinda initially they hadn't killed him and then they killed him off like after the fact. I I think it was a better end to the storyline for sure. but it's interesting that they chose to do that like af like as they were editing the season, like they realized that that was what was going on. I thought Well, okay, on the stakes. My my topic is well done or medium rare stakes. I prefer medium well. Me too. ⁓ d there's that too. Raw stakes. I didn't expect him to die. Not this early. I thought he was just gonna get deeper and deeper until he couldn't kinda like what they did with Agent Nadim from season three of the Netflix show, where they just kept having him do things and he didn't really have a choice. That's where I thought it was going when they had Buck when Buck had him either choose a shovel or saw. Yeah, I didn't I didn't think they'd kill him. Regardless, it was still funny 'cause it was funny to watch him squirm and panic and then his face as he was trying to take B B inside. And then she snapped him out of it, which I don't think I bought either. his last semblance of humanity, I was just like, This I don't know if he would do that in this moment. okay, their friendship, whatever. I almost bought it more than when he was dragging her inside. Like when he was starting to drag her inside, that felt fake to me. As opposed to it felt like the real him coming out when he finally made the decision that he'd been building up to the whole season, which is to protect her. Either way it was funny. And then Vanessa dead. What's so funny about it is everything around it, not the fact that she died, even though her like last moment, her last moment of consciousness before, you know, she dropped in that boxing ring. My brother and I have this thing where she turns and whispers his name. She says, Where was it? But but My brother told me. He said, I don't know why, but I keep I keep picturing Littlefinger doing that instead. So Littlefinger from Game of Thrones. Yeah, instead of Vanessa in that place, it's it's Littlefinger turning and whispering, Where's it? So that's that's that made that funny. He made that's my brother's fault, okay? And then ⁓ how adamant he was about getting the pineapple juice. My brother keeps quoting that too. Okay, I'm starting to realize this is all my brother's fault for making me enjoy this season as much as I did. He was so adamant about he's no, get me a glass of pineapple juice with ice. It was And she's like, Yo, Willie, you scared the shit out of that girl. Why? Yeah. Why would you do that? And then I was like, ⁓ ⁓ she don't know what's going on. Are they gonna do amnesia? And nope, they killed her. And then it was made even funnier cause that doctor, if you were that doctor and you knew who Kingpin was, you would have been out of there as soon as you heard her flat line. Like you would have been on the next plane out of there. But he goes in there and tries to console him. I don't know what it is with these regular people and thinking they could just talk to him any kind of way. Like his ⁓ trainer that got killed. Hey man, you not yourself right now. What happened? You used and then he gets punched across the ring and dies. One shot. ⁓ my god. ⁓ and then this doctor comes in and he's trying to feed him poetry day by day I gave him fire. ⁓ my god. Yeah, dude. I was watching that episode again today, and I was it cemented for me even more. This is the weirdest way they could have written this character, and I kinda love it. But like Why is he quoting poetry? Why is he talking to him like a therapist that lives in a library? Well, love should never be a secret. If you keep something secret locked up inside, your feet of poetry. Yeah, it's like I was watch it's like I'm watching an old Noir movie, and I don't know why he did it this way. Like he doesn't know this man. Do you talk to all your patients like this? Hey man. Cyber wife, bring it in. And then he just squeezes him to death. He's like, Hey, I can't move. Yeah, you can't move, idiot. He kills you let his wife die in his eyes. Do you know who you're dealing with? ⁓ my god. ⁓ my god. ⁓ you can't convince me it's not a comedy, bro. I will say you look at it this way, it is hilarious and I love it so much more. I wish I'd watch this season with you now, because it sounds like a much better time. It's all let's all watch it together. We'll do we'll do a binge day and then we'll all re-record this episode. I had a blast, man. ⁓ my god. And then at the at the end with ⁓ so I'm still I'm still on topic of stakes, but the end when everybody's crashing out, Kingpin has the biggest crash out. I have that gif saved on my phone and I send it whenever I can 'cause they made a gif of it, of course. Well, one he had a moment where he laughs at Karen. ⁓ and he's like, You think he's coming to save you? Ha! That was so over the top and unnecessary, it was funny. Which is all of Kingpin's character. It's all of Kingpin's scenes, yes. And then the moment I warned my brother something was coming. But he knew he knew who was coming. As soon as he's he said, Open that door and he starts he starts walking to the To the door, he's like, ⁓ And then he opened the door, he goes, boom, and plus he one shots the guy. I literally flying across the hallway. That moment came. I literally turned to my sister as soon as he said open that door, and I whispered to her, Is he about to beat the shit out of these regular protesters? And then he did. And I was like, ⁓ my god. And then it was two different hallway fights. One was Daredevil and Jess, and the other was Kingpin. And Kingpin is brutalizing these people. And somehow at the end he's like, I'm trying to help you. Why are you so mad at me? My brother rewound it like three or four times. Boo! It's cause it doesn't make sense how strong he is. Do you know how I know one how hard you have to prunt somebody for them to leave their feet. It is rare that happens in even mixed martial arts in the UFC. But for them to go flying from your punch and crack their head on a bench across the hall from where you are is insane. How big is he supposed to be? Because do you remember going the boxing match where they said weighing in at three hundred and twenty-five pounds? I believe it. Which is supposed to be almost all muscle, by the way. Which muscle's heavier than fat, but anyway, it doesn't matter. Like, that's a crazy weight unless you're like six foot eight. Yeah. And then it it didn't end there. He just Going through touch people. And then and then he lifts lifts homie up by his head and his legs and turns him into the capital letter L, bending him across it. ⁓ my god. He I remember cringing at that part. I'm like, ⁓ that that could not have felt good. Why did he do that? For no reason because he's crazy. I understand why at the end Matt stopped them, but I don't blame them for beat the protesters for beating trying to beat him to death and being like, we need to stop this man. He's too dangerous. They were running away. He is stronger than Captain America, who has actual superpowers. They were they were ready to fight him and jump him, and then they once they saw that first dude get one tapped. By one punch man, they started running for their lives and running for safety. Yeah. It turned into a horror movie scene. Essentially, yes. Okay, let me not need to calm down. Are you okay? I can't see you, but I can feel you crying. I'm crying laughing, dog. ⁓ okay, what else? I'm trying to be able to see. ⁓ man. Okay, I'm a little dizzy. Okay. Okay, Buck has been confer okay, I don't know what they're doing with Heather, aka Lady Muse. I don't ⁓ that was ⁓ confusing and people said his scene with the Buck scene with Heather where he was like choke me ⁓ mommy was was hot. ⁓ no. I don't get it. I I don't either. I I was okay. I I was watching the th I wanted to skip that scene. I'm like, I'm good. Yeah, I don't I don't get it. It did feel inherently kinky though. Like it I it was I think it was supposed to, and I don't understand why they did that. I'm not kink shaven, but you know. No, I'm not either, but it didn't it didn't do anything for me. But I was like, yeah, this definitely there's a subtext there. I was uncomfortable. Just because I think it's because it was the two of them. No kink shading here. I think they're bringing I think Buck was already confirmed for next season. People are speculating he's gonna have something to do with Lady Muse and awaken her or something or be his her ⁓ first victim or something. I don't know. I don't know what they're doing with Heather. ⁓ yeah, I said I said this stuff about Bullsar already. ⁓ it would be cool to see him join the Thunderbolts so they have like an actual villain on the team and see because they're That movie they were all like wholesome. None of them are like psychopaths like that for real. So it would be funny to see their reactions to a literal ⁓ to bullseye. Yeah. W yeah, just to bullseye. Just being like, Does anyone want a banana milkshake? You right. After he's covered in blood, there's bodies everywhere. After they had a whole plan, he went in, soloed the whole building, and he looks back at them and is like, You guys want a banana milkshake? He's great. I don't know what they're doing with Matthew Lillard. He feels a little wasted ⁓ right now as Charles. I don't know if he's coming back. Yeah, I think he is. I feel like he kinda has to, because I feel like his stuff wasn't done. But like Mr. Charles, I thought he had superpowers. That would have been interesting. I think it would have been interesting if he ⁓ hit his superpowers. Like ⁓ Did you watch Gen V season two at least? I did, I was just thinking about the same thing. Cypher. I thinking's character. I was thinking the exact same thing. Like if he had something like small and hidden, and it would be interesting here, because I feel like in that show they had to hint, because we didn't know what his powers were, they had to hint at it. Yeah. In this one, they wouldn't hint at it at all. So it would kind of be surprising, but they could have made it made sense. Like if it was some kind of like subtle mind control thing or like an illusionary type deal, like something like that, that could have been to explain how a guy like this is just never touched. Right. You know I was in a along the ride with that theory until ⁓ Buck shot both of his like bodyguards in that warehouse and then Kingpin shouts at him, Practice a little patience. So it it would have been a and then and then like what kind of killed that theory for me was like he he dropped the F bomb after like a sigh of relief and I was like, ⁓ so he was like intimidated? Did they feel like it made him a little vulnerable? I think not even too early, just like but it showed that like he's not fully in control of every situation. But he also never finished his decline, so there's gotta be more. Right? Right. Yeah. Daniel Nessa ⁓ crash out. I'll just mention this last as part of stakes. I feel like I've been on the topic kind of for the most part. I've mean I've been laughing through tears is most of it. But Matt i and his revealed identity and in jail are huge, huge plot points 'cause I really hope they don't pull a end of no way home and just r make it so nobody knows who he is now. There's no way they're going to. I've been wondering if they're not gonna do exactly that, but it I think like the day after I watched the finale I was like, ⁓ I bet they're gearing up for him to be in Spider Man and or Doomsday. And that's why they had him go mask off and reveal that he's daredevil. I don't know if they can like retrofit that now and have it be like, ⁓ n nope, now everyone forgot again. But I bet it's it's setting up something for like later on. I think there's a danger, kinda like they did with No Way Home, where th there's a danger of it not really mattering as much as they're implying. 'Cause it's such a huge moment. in the finale and it kind of makes sense and I love the way that they set it up and the way that they do it. Like it's hard to make a moment like that work and still maintain the stakes, like you were saying, and the momentum that they were going for. But I think that they they end it with really feasible consequences. And then I think the danger's gonna come in next season with like, well how he's not gonna be able to go back to being a lawyer. So I think it could get kind of repetitive because he's gonna have to either go back to being on the run or he's gonna have to work for the government or something, I feel like. Like it's it's not really It's time for a jail season. Yeah, exactly. Which I think it'll be interesting if he spends at least two episodes kind of in jail with that dynamic. I think they're implying that like Cole North is a lot more on his side and that's gonna be like his ally in jail. But I think that that would also be a good way to give the other characters more stuff to do because Matt's not gonna be around. So like seeing Karen while he's in jail, that would make sense. They do something similar in Arrow in season seven. Which I guess spoilers for that, but that's been over for a while now. That's been over for a while. ⁓ but basically they do something similar where like the main character ends up in jail, and that's a good like seven or eight episodes where he he's not around and the other characters have to just deal with it by themselves. And they mostly do a good job with giving the other characters more stuff to do. But I I I do think that They could very well be like, Well, we set up this big thing and we don't really know what to do with Matt when everyone knows who he is. So like if they can't handle that dynamic with the public, I think that could become an issue. I love jail arcs and jail scenes. Even in these shows, the Netflix shows, extraction to the tweets. The raid to Yeah. When Punisher fought those dudes who kinked Vincent after him. Yeah, I I love jail arcs for superheroes. 'Cause it's like, well, now you're stripped down from everything. Now what? And now you're surrounded by people you put in there. Yeah. I'm looking forward to where they're going and we're still probably gonna make Evan watch that too. It might be for you then, Evan. As especially if you watch it in the same lens as I've been watching. I I'm gonna try because it sounds more like am I a lot I haven't been allowed to drink lately for health reasons that you guys know about, but like am I allowed to watch this tipsy next time? ⁓ sure. Yeah. Yeah, why not? We'll all get tipsy and watch it together. I mean maybe. I don't know. Typically we do that for watch alongs, but like I try to watch everything that we're gonna actually talk about sober and like pay attention to. I think there is this place for like stuff that you don't pay attention to and I typically don't try to pick things for this show that fall into that. I take this seriously at all blood alcohol levels, so I don't need to be tipsy for this. I I'm sober now and was sober when I was watching this and it is still funny. It is pretty funny. Perhaps I'll exhale through my nose a few times. If this wasn't funny you wouldn't love it, Jelani. I feel like I feel like that. ⁓ yeah. I mean I won't say any details, but Parts of the Boys season five was also funny. For the wrong reasons. For the wrong reasons. Yeah. So I get what you're saying. Next season though, it's gonna just be fun because it's gonna be defenders. We're getting I found out today Finn Jones is coming back, yeah. Which a lot of people are not excited for. I'm gonna give it a shot. I think if they do it right, 'cause he came back after his show was over. Or after his show was over? I think so. In ⁓ Luke Cage season two. And when he has other main defenders to bounce off of, he's fine. So I think that if they get the dynamic right. Yeah, he was cool in Luke K season too. Exactly, yeah. I think they gave they gave him just enough. So I think given that he's in a Daredevil show, they're kind of gonna do what they did with Jessica Jones this season, where he's not gonna be in it enough to overshadow everything or to be too distracting. But he's gonna be it enough for like people to be like, okay, this is kind of cool. If they, you know, shift around the way they're doing his character a little bit. That could be fun. I also say I really like seeing Mike Colzer back as Luke Cage Sweet Christmas. ⁓ yeah. Sweet Christmas. He's one of the best castings they have, honestly. I think he is up there with Charlie Cox as Daredevil. He's so good. It's really great. I I love it. Was was that all I had to say? I think so. Let's let's move on. Cool, yeah, 'cause I think this actually does really lead into my topic well, which is the relationship between violence and justice, which is something that Daredevil as a character has always tackled, and the original series I tackled I think better than this, but that this season kinda gets back to after last season kinda felt like they were hinting at it without too much direction. I think this season does a really, really good job. Because Daredevil, for some background that we don't I feel like a lot of people know, it's basically like so his dichotomy is that he is a lawyer and he's also a super violent vigilante. He is a Catholic who holds his Catholic values really close to his heart, but he is also still a violent vigilante. You know, he won't kill, but he kind of is like Batman in that he'll do pretty much everything else. He's better than Batman, but continue. I honestly agree. He's become one of my favorite characters. In the last like 10 years since the show came out, they handle the themes better because they don't comment as much on the nature of violence with Batman, and they definitely don't do it all the time. With Daredevil, I feel like they always at least hint at it. That's a hundred percent the reason why that's what I'm talking about. They handle it so well here. And it goes along with the stakes, like you were saying. They build up and they start off with this in the first place. Like they have that whole big crazy Northern Star scene, and then when Mac gets back, he's kind of talking to Karen, and you can tell they've been doing this for a few months, but they already have different ideas of how this is going to go. She's starting to lean a lot more into the sort of the punisher mentality of it, because her and Frank are really close. She's always said, This might not be okay, but he is very effective, and she's getting to a p her breaking point where she can't really see another way out of this because Fisk is so brutal and he has such a tight grip over the system that to her They've tried the the legal way this entire time and it's never once worked. Every time they try, he keeps getting back out. So to her, the only way to stop this is the most brutal option. And you can see that in episode three, when she kidnaps that A A V T F officer, who it turns out just wanted to help them, but he's like the only one. ⁓ that was also really funny. That was You're lying! He's telling the truth. You're lying to us. He's telling the truth. I'm like, ⁓ my god, it's great. And you g she turned around because she was about to start laughing because she knows that he's not being serious. That's how well she knows Matt at this point. She knows that he's just like trying to intimidate this guy. And it's just so great seeing that. They let it they play up those comedic moments so well in this. But without losing any of the the stakes or the tension. Because yeah, like he is an inherently violent individual, but you can see him struggling with it, especially in the flashback episode where he is He is so angry with Bullseye and he sees like no reason other than principle to save this guy. And then he kind of remembers why those principles matter when he's remembering Foggy. And he's remembering this one random case that they had years ago that would be otherwise would to him feel totally insignificant because he has no idea the Kingpin was connected to it. But to him would feel like completely insignificant because it's just like a small thing, but it's the thing that made him remember that like as much. As this man has hurt him, Foggy would spare him. Foggy was was better than him in that way. And that's what's keeping him holding on to his humanity. I do think there are elements to the show, and this is just, I think, the nature of the genre being a like superheroes being a pretty violent genre. There are points where maybe they kind of defeat their own point. And I think for me the finale is where that happens, where like I remember watching it and being between two things with it. One, this action is so awesome and watching these two hallway fights back to back is so interesting and fun to watch and just like dumb pulpy genre fun. But at the same time, the fact that we're rooting for this violence is not good because the whole point is that violence and murder are not the answer. So sometimes it is difficult to balance this, and I think this does it almost in the best way it could. I think maybe Daredevil Season 3 might have done it better just because you didn't have to have violence in every single episode, and that wasn't the solution to every single problem. In this, it does kind of end with a huge fight. So I don't know that it totally makes its point, but I think it does a good job at at least bringing up the argument and definitely at giving every character their own point of view on it. And showing how Matt is growing and has grown from season one of the original show and how he is very different from Kingpin. Because Kingpin is too far gone at this point. Vanessa was definitely the breaking point. He's never coming back to any semblance of like an idealistic person. Unfortunately, it's all really funny. The violence is funny. But if you're if you're good to throw it to Yeah, I'm good to throw it to you guys. Yeah. What what are your guys' thoughts on that? Th somehow The show did a good job at making me give a damn about Daredevil. I did not watch this show for him. Well, at first I watched the first two seasons. You watched it for Karen? I watched the first two seasons because people kept saying it was good and I was like, it's cool, it's grounded, it's ⁓ it's it's all right. And then season three happened and I was just like I feel like I'm just watching it for the villains, Kingpin and Bullseye. And then season one of Born Again happened, and then season two, and I've ⁓ over the five seasons and Defenders, they've gotten me to actually like ⁓ A little bit. I could at least it's strange 'cause I like like Spider Man and Superman are my top three favorite characters ever. Usually I don't like characters that won't or can't kill their ⁓ arch nemesis or arch nemesis or any of their their rogues gallery because of their moral code. And it's like yeah, I said this on the film nuts podcast, but hey, Batman. You probably could've saved a million more lives if you would have just snapped Joker's neck. Cause now he's bombing that orphanage over there. Cool, man. Good job. ⁓ you well you you're what? A billionaire? ⁓ yeah, you could have done so many things to prevent this. Okay, cool. One Daredevil's broke. So I relate. And two, I understand why he can't kill a little bit more, 'cause it's one of the it's one of the main themes, one of Evan's favorite things, themes. One of the main themes of the show. His religious aspect plays a huge role in his character and I respect that so much more 'cause it's like, ⁓ I kinda get it. What would God think of him if he tried to kill somebody? You know? That and you know, Catholic guilt being another layer that's not something I personally understand 'cause I didn't go through Catholic I I I wasn't I didn't grow up Catholic, but I know that's a it's a good chunk of their thing. Yeah, I know that that that's their usual selling point. It's how they keep you in for sure. It's not a very enticing thing from the outside, but it it makes you not want to leave. What, ⁓ Catholic guilt? Yes. Yeah, yeah. We talked about that in Wake Up Dead Man a lot. Yeah. I feel like. So I know that weighs on people. I mean, you just heard our Angel and Evan, ⁓ who both grew up Catholic, right? Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I feel Catholic guilt right now. I'm not sure why. But it's still I'll figure it out. There you go. There you go. Maybe you need to close your eyes and start breathing and looking around. Every every Instagram video I see I thought you were describing praying for a sec. I f and then I realized you were talking about how Daredevil how Daredevil sees. No, no, no, Angel. That's that's how they did it in my church. The aspect ratio changed to every time that they would have us kneel. my gosh. not every Instagram video I see of Anybody imitating them from this season. It's Kingpin mentioning he him being a boy and then Daredevil either screaming or breathing heavy and looking around. And it's funny. Or Daniel saying saying something about be running till he can't run anymore, till he runs out of steam or some nonsense. Which is so funny 'cause he it's that's one line that he said. He doesn't say shit like that all the time. Yeah. He literally said that one time. Okay, wait, I realize who he is. He's a reincarnation of Cousin Greg from Succession. I don't know if either of you two know who I'm talking about, but like the look and the personality. Somebody some listener, please back me up on this because it just clicked for me. Anyway, keep going. All I know is I feel like he should be on the penguin. That's my thing. I feel like Yeah, he really should be on the penguin. He feels like a penguin character. Not even on the Batman character, penguin. Penguin specifically. Yeah, mr. Oz, ⁓ you know, I would do anything for you. Yeah. Exactly. Can we watch that as in like can we replace the Daredevils with that? Because I feel like I'd actually like the penguin. I haven't tried it yet. We're just gonna do both, Evan. You don't have a choice. Yeah, you don't really like Yes. ⁓ you're going to we didn't do an episode on that yet? Nope. On the penguin? No. ⁓ religious aspect, the Catholic guilt weighing on him. ⁓ I understand, you know, that Catholic guilt be heavy and he's, you know, in his mind he's thinking, ⁓ well, what would God think it is? Like what if I were to send him to God? You know, I don't know if I want to do that. Like that type of thing. And then I don't know if that's how he says it exactly. But Batman doesn't think like that. Batman just thinks, ⁓ beat the man and then make him talk when I bring it Batman didn't go to church. Batman, yes. ⁓ battery. He doesn't have to because he lives in one. That's true. His whole house is made of candles. ⁓ And the fact that his ⁓ alter ego is like literally a devil or like an inner demon. So I like that. Whoa metaphor. Yeah, you you get it. It's it's there's layers layers to this. Okay. Evan, what about you? I don't know that this is my favorite version of like a story going into this because there are so you were gonna say Daredevil. I was like you don't have many to choose from. I don't have any to choose from. I can only think of one other one. I'm not No two, I'm sorry, but I haven't seen one of them. But the cartoon. He's not the bad guy. He's not. Well maybe I'll find out someday. But this theme I Sorry. I hope to one day get the reference. It's okay, that's gonna be our next watch along. I'm down with ⁓ yeah, it should be. With this theme, the relationship with violence and justice. I like other stories about this better. And I think there are many approaches that we've seen. My favorite is probably beef for Vendetta. He's only saying that because his beard matches the guy ⁓ the guy Fault Fawkes mask. No, it doesn't. I have a Guy Fawkes mask and it doesn't match that at all. The mustache is Your beard matches it. I looked at it on when the video was on. I was like, hey, you kinda look like the guy. No. I don't agree. I was also there. I don't th I don't think what are you talking about, Jelani? I don't know. Anyway, Viva Vendetta is a good version, I think, of that theme where It it at least like deals in the grey area more. There are some things I I think especially a lot of action movies and superhero movies will just make the villain so genocidally apocalyptically evil that it's like, Of course you kill him. Like there's there's not really a question there and they might like, ⁓ but if you do this you will become just like me, Batman and you know, that works on Batman 'cause he's him. No, he's not him. Which I do also think can can become kind of an empty argument, to be honest. It can yeah. They're like, ⁓ you'll become just like him. It's like, no, because I'm not doing it because I'm rageful. I'm doing it because I really see no other option. I've literally exhausted every other option, which I think is why Daredevil usually works. Because if he ever gets that far, which so far he really hasn't, like, you know full well that he has tried everything else. Like literally everything else. Stop me if I Did this in a I feel like I did it on another episode or maybe it w we weren't recording at the time. But it's like when Batman I think it was either in the comics or under the Red Hood, which we also gotta do. Yeah. Where Batman says, You kill him, Red Hood or I don't know if he knew his identity by the time. You kill him, Jason, and d the number of murderers stays the same and then he just says, So I killed two murderers. Like I think you said that last Daredevil episode, yeah. It was a recent okay there go. ⁓ yeah, I think you you you did. You might have even said that on another podcast if you like. No, that was ⁓ that's a yeah, that's so funny. I love Jason Todd. That argument is like you can make a joke of it, but there's also like a legitimate thing to that. And I I even kind of allude to this in the henchmen video I did, mostly about the John Wick movies, but a lot of other henchmen they'll kind of do shorthand in some way to make it okay that Liam Neeson or whoever is going to kill like fifty of these people over the course of a movie. I was thinking of Taken today as I I say Liam Neeson because that movie I think is one of the biggest cases of like what do we need to do? What's the inciting incident that will like let us follow this guy and be kind of in with the fantasy of him Just killing like fifty Eastern European dudes over the course of ninety minutes. Well, they took his daughter. Right exactly. And he's gotta use his skills. Wait, say that again? He's gotta use his skills. Well, his daughter got ⁓ taken. But you were trying to say. Guys, I got it. Yes, thank you. Fantastic four? Fant four stick, yes. I like it better when like I I can have fun with a John Wick or a a ⁓ dumb action movie. Not always dumb, but like just something where it's like we're not here to talk about themes, we just wanna see some cool shootouts, fine. I I can get with a good superhero movie where we're not really worried about the villain's ethics so they're just like, I have a nuke and you need to stop the nuke. When you're going to like actually engage with it, I think you need to go into the grey area. And this series I'll say does a little bit. Like at the very least, Kingpin's not an apocalyptic threat. So you don't have to like he's not ever holding a nuke over the city Dark Knight Rises style. Well, his hands Yeah. Also I think that they do a good job. They really make clear that like New York is under martial law. Like they make it feel like a very closed off city. Like I feel like I'm in Gotham in some scenes where like I basically feel like I can't leave. Yeah. It's not like the city's completely locked down, but living in the city itself feels incredibly oppressive just from the little things that they do, like the visual language they use and obviously the way the AVTF interacts with a lot of the characters. Like They make clear that they're living in this apocalyptic city state. So Damn, that's crazy. I won't go into deep Evan knows what I'm talking about. I think so. Yeah. Anyway. They do a really good job of making it feel like like Kingpin's brought this city to such a point where they have to find a way to get him out of power. Like there's no moving forward waiting for this to be over. Like They can't just go back to the way things were. Like he has taken such control, and now it's even worse because he does have this sort of legion of people that have such like undying loyalty to him that there's no way that their minds are just gonna be changed except through drastic action. So like there are people in the city that are being oppressed, and there are also people in the city that are somehow completely on his side despite him being absolutely insane and being open about being absolutely insane. You know, so I think they do a really good job of making that make sense. I'll give you that. I think it still is able to be in that gray area spot a little bit. I I didn't find myself thinking about that dichotomy very much. Maybe because it just doesn't tap it into it in ways that like 'cause I do sometimes feel called out by like that kind of dichotomy. Like when I rewatched Viva Vendetta this past November fifth. It was the first time I'd seen it in a few years and it it made me think of some like just uncomfortable real life things. and I don't know if this show quite i that might be a personal thing, like i if I I think if other people are just at different points with that, like i 'cause it it's kind of this tricky question where everyone on paper agrees that like violence is wrong. I'd say a good ninety five percent of people think that. ⁓ or at least would claim to think that. But we also have this like kinda urge to sometimes be like but I wish I could justify some violence. Well violence is is never the answer. It's the question and the answer is yes. I I mean But I get what you're saying. I think that's where Karen comes in. Like like she questions that are like early in the season. Like she like I know it's wrong, but at the same time I'm so done with all of this shit. And like what else am I gonna do? Yeah. There are violent actions that I think ⁓ like I I never quite know where to land on it personally. Because you could easily make an argument that I could get behind that, like, it's never justified. Also, there are people that I think are legitimately making the world worse. And Like my ⁓ yes. And like many the like the Dark Knight deals with this as well. A a lot Jelani, you were referencing a lot of like just Batman media in general is kind of playing with this. If they know he won't kill them, then that's almost their just like free pass to kinda do whatever 'cause they know that he has lines he won't cross and they will cross every line. Like I think the Dark Knight does a good job of playing in that grey area and testing that philosophy. I I don't find this show to be an especially good sounding board for it. I do think it is playing there's that scene with Karen, like it's definitely present in the show. I don't know if it adds a ton to the conversation that V for Vendetta or other things don't. I kind of like in a superhero context having a s a Spider Man character really just Spider-Man, because he doesn't kill either. But he also, like, has ways of stopping people. Like, whenever he's fighting like random violent criminals, his move is always web shooters before kicking them in the head so hard that they like wake up with brain damage. Whereas a lot like Daredevil doesn't have a web shooter equivalent. He always has to resort to kick him in the head as hard as he can. I just prefer the Spider Man approach to that. And I think in cases where you have like the Venom storylines or the there are moments where Sy Spider Man like succumbs to rage. And I think the story never tries to justify that. Like whenever he is being just willfully violent, that is always presented as a bad thing. Well they always present it as an outside force is the thing. Like it's I don't know if it always is It's almost always 'cause I feel like e most often I remember it is when it's often the symbiote and it's rarely like something has driven him to this point. Because that's not the kind of character Spider-Man usually is. To me, at least. Are are we good to close out where we're a little past nine? I think so. Unless unless you add more points, Evan. Because yeah, I do think it's an interesting thing that they do with Daredevil, and that's why he's probably my favorite Marvel character besides Spider Man. But even then it depends on the mood I'm in. Like sometimes He takes over, depending on like what kind of story I'm looking for. I think they have the best handle in the comics and on TV now about like who Daredevil is. Like, he's the most consistent in a good way. And I think next season's gonna be good. We talked a little bit about that, but I do think that next season being the defender season is such a good idea. And they're gonna build up and I'm hoping they do more defender shows, personally. I think we're good to close out unless you guys had more thoughts. ⁓ Evans notes at one point says it's refreshing to have a care I don't know if he said it. I don't remember. ⁓ refreshing to have a character who doesn't feel guilty about killing is why ⁓ that's why I enjoy ⁓ Burn Thal's Punisher. I I did forget to say that. Yeah, I I think that it it can be. ⁓ you yeah, the way you said it. He's always on a quest for knowledge or sharing knowledge. Because he's always trying to ask somebody something or tell them something. Yeah. Yeah he is. I actually I'm upset. I was supposed to I still haven't gotten at the time of recording to watch the Punisher one last kill special, but I did want to talk a little bit about that if I had seen it during this episode. 'Cause I feel like he's probably gonna come back next season. And either way, he's gonna be in Spider Man brand new day, and I think I I'm pretty sure Daredevil is gonna be too. Like there's so much speculation. I think he I think he's gonna be in it. I mean the hand's in it. You have to put Daredevil in it, right? It'd be really weird if they didn't, but I mean the hand was an Iron Fist and Daredevil wasn't an Iron Fist. Oof. So maybe they're maybe Iron Fist is in jail. And he's gonna be in Spider-Man 4. Okay, so our upcoming episodes, our next one's gonna be on the boys season five. We're gonna do the Odyssey when it comes out. Before then we're hoping, if we have time, to do a different kind of episode about how should we adapt myths. So not about a specific movie. We'll probably bring a lot of examples for that. ⁓ we might have my brother back for that too. Yes, from what you're telling me here. I think that'll be really good to do to do before the Odyssey because we want to watch the Odyssey as close to release, but I think that that'll be a really interesting like alternative to do. Yeah. We have our YouTube channel. I'm working on a video about the Devil Wears Prada too. Hopefully that'll be up soon. We have our Patreon, ⁓ where hopefully we're gonna be getting some new tangent episodes or at least one of them up there soon. We are on Blue Sky, Instagram, and TikTok at INT analysis pod. I am on Blue Sky Instagram and letterboxed at Ev underscore West. Where are you guys? I'm on Instagram at Jelani T Kelly and letterbla letterbox at Jelani T Kelly. And I follow you now. Yeah, I do I gotta I haven't just even I You haven't put anything on I well I have like Black Panther and Spider Verse up there, but yeah I haven't gone back to it since I created it. I think the tab is open. I don't remember. That's why I haven't filed y'all back. I'll do that once ⁓ I guess y'all force me to go back to it. It'll be it'll be it'll be soon. There's a phone app too. There is an app. Yeah, just just do it on your phone. It's super easy. No This this episode is not sponsored by Letterboxd guys. We just Although if Letterbox wants to sponsor us, I would be a great advocate for that. I would be happy to Take money. ⁓ yeah, absolutely. Letterboxed. If you we will we'll make twenty-five more accounts each if you sponsor us. Anyway, I'm on I'm also on letterboxed at Serenity Cinema, and I'm on Instagram at angelmichelle.film. Alright. ⁓ thanks for listening, everyone, and we'll see you next time. Boo! Adios. Bye bye. Boo!