Evan Wessman: Hey guys, welcome back to Interior Analysis. ⁓ I'm Angel Michelli. I'm Evan Westman. I'm Jelani T. Kelly. And today we're talking about Daredevil, Born Again. It is the sequel series to the original Daredevil show that was on Netflix back in like 2015. I've been very excited for this episode. I think it's going to be very cool. I absolutely love Daredevil as a character. My first introduction to him was in Spider-Man the animated series. The 90s? I was a kid. Yeah, that was in like, I think his episode came out in like 95 or 96 or something. I believe in it. He's got like a double episode in like the middle of season three and that was my first intro to him. And then I saw the movie and then I was super excited when the show was announced. So I remember. movie? Yeah, the Ben Affleck movie. The funniest superhero movie of all time. I even put that above Catwoman in terms of comedy. It's just it's so it's so good. Well, he's not the bad guy. No, he's not. He tells us that over and over and over again, despite letting a guy get run over with a train. I know there's two Evanescent songs in it, There are. In a row. In a row. They're in back to back scenes. Because they're like, they can't demonetize the movie if we put them next to each other. And then the funniest, the funniest bullseye portrayal ever. I don't know if this is a good time. The honestly, the funniest villain betrayal in general. I don't know a villain that has been as hilarious because even like Norman Osborn in the Spider-Man movies, he's funny, but he also is like threatening. I don't think Bullseye is threatening at all in that movie. He's just hilarious. It's it's the best. Well, he has a bullseye on his forehead. So he does. Yeah, that way we know who he is. Yeah. But anyway, we're not here to talk about that. We're here to talk about Daredevil born again. which is, like I said, a sequel series to the original show. Initially, it was going to be sort of this episodic show, but a lot of fans might know that it was sort of redone in the middle of production with the showrunners from Loki. And so they re-filmed like the first and the last two episodes and then put some other scenes in the middle. But it was going to be like an episodic legal drama, which is kind of an odd choice. So the middle episodes are still a lot of that. So that's why- so you're- I'm in the middle between you guys. hasn't seen anything of the original- Okay. Flick stuff. And... I have. But I didn't know any of what was going on. So you're telling me everything... I know some things happen, but whatever you're telling me is all new information to me. So that's why that bank episode feels really disjointed. ⁓ yeah, it's felt like it was from a different writer than the rest of the series. Yeah, so literally what happened is they were going to do an 18 episode episodic legal drama starring Matt Murdock. And I think at one point he was going to become Daredevil anyway, because episodes one, eight and nine are completely new material. Two through seven were the episodic version that they were doing. and in episode six, spoilers, obviously, but in episode six, he becomes Daredevil again. So I think at some point he was going to be Daredevil. Again, but I also that could have been part of the refilm content. I'm not 100 % sure. It's hard to tell where some of it is refilm. Well, I want to dig more into that because there's definitely elements that I think I can tell what was reshot and what wasn't not even based on like filming style, but just based on like, but just based on like, ⁓ the context of what was going on because like tonally they're very different scenes and it's very strange. But yeah, basically there were a few scenes reshot. for like the middle episodes just to make it more serialized, but for the most part, a lot of that stuff remains the same. So that's why it feels, the season feels like very disjointed and like there's no momentum. It's a very weird way to do it. like three acts to me. It feels like there's the, well, not really episode one, but like episodes two and three is like the White Tiger stuff. Then the middle section is ⁓ the, the. Graffiti blood guy whatever his name was yeah, yeah, and then the last episodes are like bullseye and yeah, but also not really cuz like this so Muse is a weird one because Muse I initially thought Was gonna be like the main villain of the season I think they announced right but then Muse shows up in the first episode to set him up He doesn't come back until like episode except for like little scenes in between that have no connection to the rest of the show He only comes back again in like episode six or something and that's when we like we watch Matt fight him and then in episode seven he's dead because Daredevil's girlfriend shoots him after that he's like not around because that's all like reshot stuff I think they handled it as best they could but the way they did it was very strange but I want I want to get into your guys's initial thoughts on it because Jelani you've seen a lot of it but Evan I want to start with you, because you, kind of like with Jelani and the Hobbit, you haven't seen any Daredevil stuff. Yeah, had a- I'd say I had about as much knowledge coming into this as Jelani did going into the Hobbit. Like, I've seen a couple videos about the Ben Affleck movie. I'd heard a thing or two about the Netflix show. Apparently he only ever wins when he's in a hallway is like the trope of that show, right? I think you- I feel like Jelani, you said that on some episode years ago. Yeah. It's like Batman- Prep time, Daredevil hallway, like, what do do there? Pretty much my knowledge base, to the point that, I actually felt... I didn't feel completely lost, like, I could tell that it wasn't doing a lot to catch me up. I was like, okay, this is clearly a sequel. It's not acting as if anyone here is new. I felt like I could pick up enough through context, but I still am a little bit lost on, like, just some... basics about Daredevil. Like, I know obviously he's blind and his other senses are heightened, but is that his only power and what is his code or his motivation? Does he kill? What's his, like, relationship with the police? All of that seemed like I was a little bit missing that and I don't blame this show for it because I'm sure that was all established, but I would have liked to know that and that's no shade to anyone. That's only really my fault. But I thought it was good to just have a perspective since I can come into this blind I might as well. No pun intended. heard that after. God damn it, Chilani. Don't laugh at the offensive jokes. I mean, it was completely unintentional there. As it usually, I think like 80 % of the time my puns are unintentional and then the 20 % that they are you're gonna know it's intentional what I intended. That was not one of them. Because you're already laughing before you finish the joke. Yeah, you'll see it on my face. Did that hurt your enjoyment of it at all? Like, feeling like there was stuff that you were missing from the original show? I don't think so. I did not enjoy this, though. ⁓ I didn't hate it. The thing you were talking about, Angel, with like, all of the reshuffling... When I was eight episodes in, the night just before I watched the finale, I talked to a friend and told him I was watching this and he told me basically what you said. Like, yeah, there was like... reshuffling and I was like, ⁓ that makes everything kind of make sense. It sort of feels that like all the stuff you were talking about how it's like there isn't a lot of continuity. Like my read of it was I like the way one of you framed it earlier. I kind of thought of it as like the first and last episode and maybe eight in there too. Felt like one daredevil movie and then they shoved the other episodes in between. Which makes sense because all of that was reshot content. Yeah, and it felt like I liked that stuff, the bookends. I was like, ⁓ if this was the show, great. Like, if this is what we get in season two, I'm here for that. Who knows if we do, but like the rest of it, I won't say too much because it's basically like my topic is just kind of how this never really finds a thing to like hook me in. And that was most of my experience. Two other random notes. I've heard also about the Punisher who shows up in this a few times and I was like, okay, yeah, I see why people like him. John Bernthal is good and he plays him really well. Well, he needs to ask you something. Hmm. Every time. you something. My brother just sent me a, it was a cut on Instagram of every time he just says I'm gonna tell you something to somebody in all of his roles. Cause he's always got to tell somebody something. John Bernthal Total or Punisher exclusively. No, just all of his roles. He played Shane in The Walking Dead, some other, just every time he's like rubbing his hand. Take some. You know what else? I like him in like everything I've seen in it though. ⁓ yeah, he's great. I can also see why Punisher attracts the worst kind of fans both in the show and in real life. Like I've seen that logo on like, I feel like it's always on pickup trucks. Yep. And police cars. and apparently stars yeah and it's like after seeing him i was like ⁓ yeah i can understand why there's the stigma it's crazy because it's like they are so delusional in their ideology of the character that they don't realize the character would hate them and he does like racist spider-man fans like you don't realize peter parker won't like like you if But, ⁓ man. I feel like that's more obvious in the Spider-Man context than ⁓ in the Punisher context. Because the thing is, I can see why people with this power fantasy would lock in on the Punisher this way, not realizing that that is not what he is intending to do. But the effect he's having, I see where it's coming from. Obviously, all of these people are wrong, including the Punisher. The crazy Punisher cops in real life and in the show and in the Punisher are absolutely wrong in their ideology. But I can... I can see where their confusion comes from. like, of Spider-Man fans, it just, doesn't make any sense given everything that Spider-Man says. You know what mean? Yeah. The only kind of bigotry that low-key, it's not justifiable, makes sense with Spider-Man fans is homophobia because of the one burn in the first Spider-Man movie. Yeah. Like, the only good burn, like, creative burn that Spider-Man has is a homophobic joke. So that one, it's like, well... Maybe the text of the character needs to fix that, but otherwise, yeah. Spider-Man is like one of the least problematic superheroes you can have. Everyone loves Spider-Man. Yeah, and Spider-Man loves everyone, even his villains. Yeah. I'll maybe build on this a bit later, but in terms of the Punisher and this, like, it does feel like his imitators in the show are the cops that are like down bad for his cause, or whatever cause they are. Like, his name on. seems like the show is like, these are bad cops. Otherwise it seems very confused about what it's saying about a lot of things, but partly the police is one of those things. That one, it seems pretty set. It's like, these are bad Punisher fans. And I was wondering if, I don't know a ton about like the real life kind of backlash. I just like, I've heard a little bit of that. Like I've heard it as almost like a part of a joke, like, ⁓ he's got a XYZ and a Punisher sticker on his vest or whatever. Like, in a context where it's like, ⁓ yeah, it's kind of a sign that it's bad dude. I don't know a ton about that showing up in IRL. My only other note, and then I'll throw it back to you guys, I sent this in the group chat, but I was distracted the entire show by how much Matt Murdoch looks like Patrick H. Willems wearing those glasses. I hate you for telling me that. It just does. the bottom of their faces have like the same shape. I know. And when like it, I don't think even like the acting style is a little bit similar. Like it's not. I see Jelani looking up Patrick A. Films right now. You guys are talking about. ⁓ my gosh. It's just very distracting to me, but that's a me thing. OK, Jelani, what about you? I see it. ⁓ wait, yeah, I see it. The glasses, Right, like... Especially when Patrick wears sunglasses. I think that's what it is. Which he does a surprising amount now, like I didn't even really notice until I was like, ⁓ Patrick Williams is, like I had to keep telling myself it's not him playing Daredevil. Because I kept being like, wow he's doing a really good performance, this is not like his video, his voice is so different. So my initial stuff with this, I watched all three seasons of the Netflix show. I watched most of all versions of the Netflix shows of the Defenders. I mean, there was only the one season. Jessica Jones, I think I watched seasons one and two. I never watched three. Iron Fist one and two and Luke Cage one and two. My favorite being Luke Cage season, the first half of season one. All with Mahershal Ali. My second favorite being season three of Daredevil, actually. Because Bullseye is just... He's such a good villain. Yeah. Like the fact that you can't have anything within reach of his hands is such a distinct but like dope ability. Have you ever seen Alphas on Syfy? It was a show that came out in like 2010 or something like that, like we were kids. So there's a character in that with a very similar... The way it starts is they're meant to be like superhuman people, but all of their powers feel like within human reach. Like one girl has heightened senses, kind of like Daredevil does. There's another guy that has like an adrenaline thing. He kind of has like super strength, but it's not like ridiculously unbelievable either. And then there is one character that has basically bullseye's power. where I don't remember what it's called exactly. Like some kind of like hyper reflex balance thing. He could like throw something and bounce it off the walls and then catch it again. Like pretty much exactly what Bullseye's is. I think they might, I almost feel like there's some inspiration in how Bullseye does things like from that. And we see that way more in Daredevil season three than we do here. Like in here, I think he just shoots people. There's maybe some like knife throwing, but that's about it. I think I have seen the Ben Affleck movie. Daredevil's not my favorite. I like him more than Batman though, because at least he has some sort of ability. I like when my superheroes have, you know, superpowers, but that's a whole other topic. You guys already know my thing with Batman. Yeah. I, despite the disjointedness that I did feel, I definitely felt it. I wasn't really, I was just along for the ride the first time I watched this, my second time seeing it. I definitely felt the disjointedness of the season a lot more this time around. Yeah, I agree with you though. There's good stuff here. There's a lot of like holes in here that I think we're going to talk about too. And actually, I probably should have done your initials first because I actually want to start with your topic, Jelani, because I know you might have a limited time this episode. think your topic was you were saying you dug the tone of this more and the style more than the original show. So if you want to get into that. Yeah, for one, this felt more mature to me. I mean, one, it's a small thing and hear me out because it might not seem like a lot on the surface but the fact that they use f-bombs to me is a big thing because the entire draw of I thought you were about to do the sign of the cross Evan. Wait me. The entire... F-bombs. Swearing. I've never done that on the show before ever. Daredevil's Catholic yeah. An entire draw of the Netflix shows was the groundedness of them. They were like loosely connected to the MCU. People would bring up what happened in New York as far as like the first Avengers movie, especially in everybody's first seasons. But the groundedness of the shows were the draw because it's like this is street level and everybody they can they got little superpowers here and there. It's not like Avengers where everybody's like flying and throwing spaceships and moons at each other and shooting fire from their face with that being like the biggest draw of the shows and Nobody kind of talking like it's the real world Where f-bombs are thrown around where they're the harshest term? Was ⁓ shit they would throw that around as often as possible in the Netflix show, nobody, don't remember anybody, I don't recall anybody ever dropping an F bomb in any of the Netflix. I don't think they did. rate it TV 14 on Netflix? No, it was mature, which was strange. was like, yeah. And there's a lot of violence, a lot of blood, but not a lot of swearing. Yeah. I think because it was kind of associated with the MCU at the time still. Like they made clear, like these are MCU shows. It was only later that they kind of started to like, try to disconnect them a little bit more because I think you wanted them separate. I think it was the Deadpool effect. I was going to say it might be an effective Deadpool. Like now they're like, okay, we can do this. I think I've been curious what Disney is going to do with like now that they have a thing that's in their brand. I've talked about this before, but like they have a an R rated thing that is very famous for being like, you know, the biggest R rated movie ever. Yeah, that is financially successful. Yes, financially successful and just Deadpool's appeal is that he's the 14 year old who will make a dirty joke at the lunch table. Like that's his personality. Like everyone was like, you can't water him down. But now in a post Deadpool in Disney world, like I think you're very right about that, Jelani. Yeah, once they saw like maturity, well maturity, but ⁓ saw that that was profitable. They they shifted so when I started this show and somebody drops an F-bomb within like the first 10 lines I'm like ⁓ that's nice and it's on and I watched it when back when I had Disney Plus I watched it on like seeing the Disney logo next to somebody dropping an F-bomb I was like okay there you go even though it's a like it seems like a small thing the fact that people like can freely Talk like it felt like you were just there, but people would be swearing a lot more like the Punisher I feel like the Punisher would be all the Punisher. Absolutely. It's crazy to me Yeah, yeah, it's crazy to me that there were no f-bombs in the Punisher show at least as far as I remember and I rewatched some of that recently I didn't see I didn't hear anything in there, which is crazy. It's crazy cuz he got His face caved in every single episode of that but and he's like And he in other people's faces too. Yeah, that hurt. There's actually a scene, I think in Punisher Warzone, I'm not kidding, where he punches through a man's face. Like he punches him so hard his entire skull in the front caves in. It's crazy. He's like, dog on. That was tough. Come on, bro. Now Punisher would do that and then he'd be like, you're watching Disney Channel. Right. I mean they do that in the Spider-Man trilogy, but it's Spider-Man's movie so I get it. Right. I don't want, like I've thought about this with other characters too, like I don't ever want an R-rated Spider-Man. No, I don't need it. No, I don't think we need it. I don't think it fits for the character. Yeah, but I'm okay- Punisher? Punisher? I'm okay with an R-rated Batman. I think it's, I think we're well overdue for a long Oh hell yeah. Yeah, and even in this regard Daredevil also, like Daredevil, Jessica Jones, like- Like, goofier characters, you can get away with saying, like, I don't think we should do R-rating for them. like... I don't need Superman R-rated. Yeah. Well, and at this point, there's enough things that are just, like, invincible, even kind of Hancock, even though it's the boys. The boys. Like, we have R-rated Superman. We don't need it literally to be Superman. Older movies too, we had kick-ass. Like... Yeah. Yeah. There's plenty of content out there for you if that's what you're looking for. That was a big difference for me that I enjoyed. I also liked the direction. That was really noticeable for me off the bat. Specifically more so in like the first episode and then the last few episodes. But yeah, the hearing. That's not something I believe was as big a focus or like paid attention to. Like he has a super hearing and he would like listen in but I just like the direction, like they would change the aspect ratio. Yeah, was cool. ⁓ And change the audio. They're doing that in the new season too. Yeah. Cause at this point the new season started, but like they're doing that new season too and like they make that clear in the opening scene of that and I'm glad they're keeping that cause that's something that was only the new show runners do that. There's none of that in the other episodes. Yeah. I think it happens in the bank scene though. It happens in the bank episode too. I don't think it changes aspect ratio. change. It doesn't change aspect ratio. Oh, but the hearing. Oh, well, the hearing was in the original show a decent amount. It just wasn't as prominent because they didn't do the visual style for it. But he does it a lot in the original show. Yeah. I dig the aspect ratio change in the sound editing of that. think that's really dope because it's also a reminder like, yeah, he's blind, but dude actually does. It's like he has superpowers. He has heightened senses. So that's really fun. I mean it also to me it looks more polished. Yeah, that might be time though. I think the style of TV has changed considerably like the budget going into it. There's going to be like it looks more movie esque than I think it. Yeah. And sometimes that's good. Sometimes that's bad. Like I noticed in the first episode, one thing I didn't like was like there's a lot of heavy CGI in that opening like 15 minutes like when Daredevil lands and then when Daredevil is like jumping around on the roof and like fighting bullseye like there's one scene. where he jumps on the roof and like, that looks cool. But then he tackles bullseye, knocks him to the ground or whatever, and he's walking over to him and the shot is like very obviously CGI. And I'm like, he's just walking. You could have switched to a real person walking, right? Like that doesn't make sense to me. And then he kicks him and it's like very animated. And I'm like, this looks like I'm watching Daredevil 2003. Like it doesn't look great, but that's like the only time where that really happens. I think that it's just like, They put a lot of effort into the visuals of it, especially in those reshot episodes and the reshot scenes. The lighting of the Punisher scene in like episode four is crazy good, especially compared to like the rest of the show, which is noticeably lighter, like visually. It looks very good. ⁓ one thing I did notice that was strange. I'm wondering about your opinion on this. The fight scenes feel very different in this. I've noticed on my rewatch, like in the old show, they were very, especially that hallway fight in episode two of the original, they were like very... very very grounded and that was kind of the point. Like you can watch Daredevil getting his ass kicked, but he's also kicking ass at the same time. Like he's not going down, but he absolutely looks like he should. These fights felt a lot more comic book-y in some ways, even when he's not in the suit. And I think that that's good in some parts. Like I think the fights in the bank episode were really cool, especially the way they do the sound design for those. Like I love the one in the stairwell. Yeah, where would he? he's trying to keep it quiet as much as he can he catches the shotgun Before it falls and like that's really cool and they focus all on those like little sounds There's no music score. There's none of that like it just looks really cool And then the end where he snaps the guy's leg in half. ⁓ my god. Yeah, that I was like That shit was insane. No, ⁓ even the fight with the cops in episode two. It's so quick but like he tears those guys apart like he bends one guy's arm and it starts bleeding and it bleeds through the sleeve it bleeds through oh my god and that was in the trailer too i was so excited for it like to see it and it's so good and then the end he lets out that like scream he screams so much in both of these shows but he screams especially in this show and it's fucking hilarious i love it so much He just there's one part he's fighting Muse and out of nowhere he stopped. He screams up at nothing in the air and then he charges. It's awesome. I love it. I literally send that gif all the time to everybody. Yeah, you also got to think like I didn't realize it until I mean episode one mainly but like they probably really they get tired. They get tired. Like it's got to be exhausting. I did audition where I was just I mean I'm also not conditioned but I did an audition where I was shadow boxing in place you're like I'm not fit bro I can't for like a minute ⁓ I did one where I had to sprint around the 400 meter track bro I nearly died halfway through that I'll tell you the story another time well shadow boxing in place for like a minute and I think I did two takes of that and I was dead by the end of that So you gotta imagine like adrenaline, I'm sure it helps, like fighting for your life and how exhausting that can be. Even if it's just a few minutes with a few guys with guns, like there's probably a lot of heavy breathing and panting going on. So I like seeing that aspect because it's like, yeah, they're still human, huh? Especially the Punisher, that was all throughout. ⁓ yeah. But he's also like a beast too. I see what you're saying though, I, I actually, used to do boxing. I'm trying to get back into it, but like one of the exercises they usually do for training is like, they'll say like, okay, you're going to go a boxing round, which is three minutes, which doesn't sound like a lot, but they're like, basically you're continuously doing punches, combos, everything for three minutes. Even if you're just doing it against a bag or you know, shadow boxing, like even if you're not actually fighting somebody, it's very difficult to keep that up for 180 seconds. really really hard and they make that like I said that's very obvious in the original show I think in this it might be like a little bit less but I think that's fine because they're leaning into like a more stylized version of it like this is allowed to be different and it's distinct in its own way I like it what else there was one other difference I was gonna bring up was it that there's no Karen in this show did you like that more yeah I never liked Karen as a character I don't even remember why in the original show. did like Claire when she was around, but I just, I don't, I don't care for Karen. I just don't. I don't know. Do you like her better than Heather? Heather? No, I don't like either of them. Oh, you don't like either of them. Okay. I hate Heather so much. I'm glad you said that. When Karen came back in the last episode, I was like, oh, there seems like there's an actual dynamic here. Like I can feel it. I feel like they at least Yeah, I hate Heather so much and I I'm hoping they do better with her this season, I absolutely- she's like the worst character. I'd be fine if they got rid of her. I don't think anyone cares. Like behind the scenes, I don't think anyone's like, oh, I really want this character in there. I was like, why wasn't Karen here the whole time? Somebody seems like they actually have like put some thought into this character. I mean, she has a history. Heather feels like the epitome of they needed to fill in Matt's need for a love interest. they didn't want to bring Karen back for some reason. like part of the backstory of the old version of the show, they didn't want to bring back any of the original characters, like no Karen, no Foggy. So like Foggy dying was part of the new showrunner's idea. And that's why it became like the plot of the first season basically. And they also wanted to not have Karen, which is why she leaves after episode one. But like Karen is basically his main love interest. There's two others, like Claire, I think out of the three main ones is like the least prominent of them, but I think it works for her character. And then there's also Electra, who is not in the show for reasons that I guess would spoil a lot of the original Daredevil show and Defenders. like, we don't need to go into that. They wanted to give him like a new love interest. And Heather's from the comic. She's like another big love interest that Daredevil has in the comics. But the way they execute her here, it doesn't feel like they thought her through other than Matt needs to have a girlfriend for some reason. I'm not sure how they introduced her in the original version of the show. It feels like she was just there to be there and I don't think it worked. And that's not the thing against the actress. I think the actress is doing a really, really good job. She's doing what she's been paid to do and that's great. She's been in other stuff. I like her. The character of Heather, first of all, she's the worst therapist I've ever seen. She's not good at her job. Her character's inconsistent, it makes no sense. I don't want to dive down this rabbit hole, because we have limited time, but like... You would have put her second to last if you saw me play the therapist in Sopranos this past weekend. I was a terrible therapist in that scene. If those are recorded, you have to send them to us. They're not. Aw, damn it. I guess we're going to Philly, Jelani. I insulted my patients. The last thing... I could think of when it came to the differences was the gore. I guess the violence. People freaked out when Head King popped Galo's head. then we're like, online, I was reading a bunch of comments like, I don't think we've ever seen this level of gore before. And I thought back and I'm like, they might be right when it comes to like Marvel projects, MCU projects. I'm not sure we've seen. that level like even dead to it i think yeah at least less yeah it's more cartoonish in deadpool yeah like the amount of blood might be equivalent but i was used to it like the boys like Deadpool Wolverine when she rips off the skin like it's a cartoon like it doesn't feel real and it's usually happening to characters who heal it's either Wolverine or it's Deadpool or it's some other x-men this was just like a regular dude yeah and I mean you see it all it is it's awesome because you see you also see him like it's a cool I realize the fur yeah you you see him like well his skin is turning purple but you see him like bleeding from the eyes and ears I was like holy that is they put a lot of thought into this one effect for some reason yeah I was kind of refreshed like I'm not one for like intense violence especially if there's a lot of it but I was kind of like, okay, at least the show's finally like, of going for it. And I'm surprised to hear you say all of this about the tone versus the older show. Cause I had assumed the reverse. I thought they were being restrained. Cause I was like, ⁓ there's some blood and there's like maybe four F words per episode. It feels like they're kind of holding back. And I had assumed that like maybe the reverse was true. Because it reminded me more than anything of the Snyder cut where like Zack Snyder was originally gonna get a PG-13 and then they're like, okay, here's the three F words we had in the script and now there's blood when they fight the parademons. Like we'll just throw it in but the shots are there already. So they didn't like... it felt pretty tame for an R-rated movie. I kind of felt like this... aside from that. Jaw. breaking scene like that was pretty gnarly and there were a couple other like things where you see the bones breaking but on the whole I was like this feels more akin to a PG-13 kind of action. Yeah. I think this season's not gonna be like that. I think they're going for it again. a lot of that stuff was reshot. They should. A lot of that stuff was reshot. The more violent stuff was like part of the reshot stuff. Yeah. I don't need it to be like egregious like I've said before I think the boys and some other things go to a point that I find a little distasteful or I'm just like, okay, I don't like you're not shocking anymore. This is just kind of dumb. think if you use violence effectively, like if, which is to say not all the time, it can be good. And I think it seems like they might have an instinct for that here if they're given like a little bit more room to play the way they want to. So if they can do it. Like, effectively, I'm here for that. Yeah, I agree. Did you have more notes, Jelani? No, I wanted to talk about the acting, though. I don't know if that's part of... I think that's part of your topic, though, isn't it, Angel? Yeah, a little bit. My topic is basically gonna be... I guess we could transition a little bit, because that's part of it, is like, what kind of keeps me coming back about Daredevil stuff. A big part of that is actually the performances. So, like, I think Charlie Cox is one of those... And this has a lot of them, where it's, like, so iconic. that I don't think anyone else could do it. Punisher is included in this. Like, John Bertholdt is Punisher. Like, in my head, that's who I hear when I read comic books now or when I think about the characters, like, in my head in other things. Like, I hear Charlie Cox's voice and I see his version of the character whenever I read Daredevil comics now. And Punisher, John Bertholdt, same thing. Like, that's a big part of what works is, it's hard to create an iconic performance. And I think, weirdly, in the last two years, Marvel has really nailed... that on a lot of different levels. Like, I mean, we were talking about Deadpool. Ryan Reynolds is Deadpool at this point. I don't think that anybody else would be effective at being Deadpool until like, you know, maybe 50 years from now. I think that when you can make such an impression, and there's a lot more of this in the original show, like what I like about Matt as a character, because in this one, they didn't get to focus as much on like his usual theme. So I think, Evan, you were talking before about how you weren't really familiar with his relationship with the police, like does he kill, he not, what's his code? So Daredevil himself has a very heavy emphasis on his Catholic face. That's like his thing. The opening scene of the original show is literally him in a confessional talking to a priest, confessing like elements of what his sins are. But the twist of it is like, he's like, I'm not asking forgiveness for what I've done. It's what I'm about to do. And so like he's apologizing before the fact. So like he's still going to go do it. And that's such a big part of his character, I think is like, It's this relationship between his Catholic upbringing and the fact that he won't kill and he won't commit certain mortal sins, but he still has this very dark relationship with his own violent nature and the way that he seeks justice is incredibly violent. His main line is that he won't kill, but he commits a lot of other things that in the Catholic faith would not be great. As an example, he gets around a little bit, which I think in A lot of context is not necessarily something that the Bible depends on which which Christians you ask, I think. That's true. Yeah. And Catholics too. But general, mean, within religion class wouldn't be condoned. outside of it. Yeah. Yeah. There's some dark history there. But there's also like priests have affairs that are more benign as well. And, you know, of faith do too. It's not like whatever. I'm sure it goes into that. It didn't seem like there was much of that conflict. I could sense it because he was like, ⁓ I can't put this mask back on. And I was just like, all right, I guess this is drawing on some history. It's something that I'm hoping they're going to do more in this next season because part of why I was disappointed, and I think this was inevitable given the way the production happened, because they had to reshoot so much and had to make it seem like a serialized season. The biggest part of his character building this season should have been the fact that he tried to kill Bullseye. Because his whole line is he's never gonna kill I think it's so interesting that they chose to have him Try to kill bulls eye and fail because you can still have bulls eye be around then You can still have Matt deal with that But he's dealing with it in a different way than if he actually killed someone not only did he try to kill someone But that person is still there It's like a real-life living ghost that he would have to deal with but because bulls eyes not in most of the season and all of that contents only in the reshot scenes It doesn't really seem like Matt remembers that he did that in most of episodes two to seven. Like he's standing there, he's joking around, he's doing all these things that he would normally do, which could still very well happen if that storyline was there, but the storyline is not focused on except for the fully reshot episodes. And like he's got a whole monologue where he talks about it too, where he's like, I wanted to kill him. I tried to, and that should have been what his arc was for the whole season, like him coming back to Daredevil. trying to find himself again, knowing that he did cross that line. That would have been great. I like that. they did recently in the comics in the comics in like the chips of Darsky runs from 2019. He kills somebody and it's an accident, but he does grapple with that. And it's a really interesting take on I haven't actually finished it, but it's like what I've read so far is a very interesting way of doing it. Like he grapples with this idea of like now that he has killed someone should he be Daredevil anymore. And that's, think, what they were going for here. But because the whole thing wasn't there, I don't know what they're going to do. I think this season, though, they've hinted at it. I don't want to go too far into season two, but so far, based on the ending of the premiere that just happened, I think that the relationship between him and Bullseye is going to have a little more of a focus this season. And I'm hoping they build on that a lot, because that's a huge part of his character is not killing anybody. It would be something that they didn't do in the original show necessarily. They grappled with him like wanting to kill somebody, but we've never seen him actually go that far or try to. I think that's really cool. The scenes between him and Punisher. my gosh. I know. mean, you want to talk about the acting and the writing too. Like I forgot how good the one exchange I'm referring to is when Daredevil Matt yells at Punisher. He's like, he got life. And Punisher goes, Bafoggi, did he get life? I was like, ⁓ my God. I want to cry every time I watch that scene. ⁓ it's so awesome. He's like you you came here looking for mission and then even in the other do I do Basically, that's what you're looking for Yeah, and even in the other scene with the the cops and he confronts the guy who killed white tiger He's like come on red doing he's like a little devil on his shoulder. He's like, come on. Do it. Just do it He's right there. I'm like, yo, this is I like seeing that dynamic cuz it's like that's a big part of like why I like some superheroes and why I don't like others like Batman, why I don't like Batman. It's the complexity of it too. Yeah, it's like Punisher's wrong. But the point thing he's pointing out is that like Matt is going in that direction. And there's elements that he's right about. Like the fact is like you're acting like it doesn't matter, but it does. A Punisher's approach to it is wrong. And it's not who Matt wants to be. But he realizes that in that final episode, like during that fight with the cops. Yeah, it reminds me of that one. I don't know if it was Red Hood that said it. I think it was like a meme that I saw it. But it's like, if you kill a murderer, the number of murderers is like still the same in the world. ⁓ yeah, I know what talking about. And then Red Hood is like, then kill two murderers. I was about to start doing the math in my head and I was like, ⁓ there is a loophole there. What if you then split into another version of you two though, then you're two murderers instead of me? This sounds like the ⁓ next movie from the guy who made in time. ⁓ My god, this is new high concept. I really hope so 15 years later black mirror episode just dropped But I Man, I mean we were talking about Heather's act that everybody brings it. I love Vincent D'Onofrio as Kingpin. He's hilarious He's hilarious to me. So the way he's I've seen ⁓ No warrants His voice is so good every it's become more cartoonish as the years have gone on. ⁓ yeah You watch the old show versus this show like it's way more heightened and I think it's so funny my brother and I we go back and forth just doing impressions of him because it's and you watch Vincent and Afrio's other performances like he was in the first Jurassic world like he doesn't talk like that at all You don't you can barely recognize him But like he's actually neither does John Barnthal actually. Have you heard John Barnthal's real voice? No. He sounds nothing like the Punisher. But in every of his roles he sounds like the Punisher. That reminds me of ⁓ Stephanie Beatriz. ⁓ yeah, from Brooklyn Nine-Nine. Yeah, she sounds nothing like Rosa. Not at all, it's so good. Jessica Jones too, Kristen Ritter. Nothing like Jessica Jones at all. I find it- just a testament to the actor's ability being able to put on a consistent voice because that's voice acting in physical acting as well. Charlie Connors To make it not sound like an impression too, I catch this with Boston accents sometimes just because that's one I'm more attuned to. And also some people just don't stick with it or they'll do something really weird. I've harped on Kevin Costner doing a Boston accent before. Or even like, I don't think it's terrible, but Benedict Cumberbatch doing American accents, like, why do we need to make him? It just sounds wrong. He's not even doing a necessarily bad job. No, like his is relatively consistent, but it does sound like somebody doing an American accent. Mm Yeah, it sounds unnatural. And also every time Kingpin, I clocked it this time because I was Like I said, I was going back and forth with my brother a lot doing kink and impressions, but every time he says yes in this show, he doesn't say the S, he just goes, yeah. ⁓ you're right. ⁓ my God, you're so right. Yeah. It's like the S is replaced with an extra breath. Yeah. Yeah. He's muttering or growling it. It's so great. Because his mouth is always open. Yeah. All the time. He's also just a scary character. Like season three of daredevil is a testament to how scary of a dude he can be. Yeah. He was literally in everybody's like that's what he does as Kingpin. He's in everybody's pockets. He's in his own right. He's a monster like a horror movie villain. It's crazy. Oh my God. scene in this show where he gives the guy the axe in the basement. I make it a fair fight. Basically fight me. And then it's not a fair fight because then Kingpin tears him apart. Yeah. and still leaves them alive after that. Yeah. His story is actually, I find that his story is really consistent because they had recast Vanessa. So his story feels a lot more cohesive because a lot of those scenes had to be reshot because they had recast Vanessa initially and then they brought the original actress back. So like his story, it's very separate from Daredevil's but it feels a lot more serialized because it is. Like they had to reshoot pretty much all of it. I kinda wanted that to like... be its own show and better, like take out some characters in it, but I was like, Kingpin and ⁓ the reporter, BB, I was like, they could be like decent second tier House of Cards characters if they were like given more room to do that. Yeah, I think they're going to do more with BB because she's actually, the actress is doing a good job. I think she could be interesting. just don't do enough with her, is the thing. The character I don't want there anymore from that. Daniel, okay. I know you're gonna say, I knew it. I love him, but go ahead. There's some stuff about his character that I think they do well with. one thing, casting, like he just has the look of the kind of guy who's just gonna like suck up to the right person. And boy does he like some people kiss ass. This man is in the large intestine. Like, holy shit, this guy is such a henchman. yeah, he and he's rewarded for it. Yeah, I find him annoying for it. But it's I'm also like, that's a like, I've met people like that. And he just looks the part of that, like, bland ass dude who's gonna has no skills, but will just fail upwards somehow. Yeah. And he plays him like it too. He literally fails upwards. It's funny, too, because he's James Gandolfini son, which is like Tony Soprano is the complete opposite. Kind of guy I dislike him because well specifically his intimidation scenes his intimidation scenes cuz he's in the dark at mr. Mr. ⁓ Fist desk and he's like threatening his his bestie BB and he's like ⁓ Make sure you choose the right side or whatever and I'm like first of all, I'm sorry You can't threaten me with the lists, bro. You can't. You can't. ⁓ He's a piece of candy away from saying if you want the shots, I'll take the staff job. Right. Double the money. my God. Yes. He totally. Maybe that's why I love his even got the legs up on the desk. And to you're using somebody else's name like you're using your boss's name. Like I would believe it more. It he also has the face for it more I like I was thinking about it once the season was over and now with the new season starting Buck is awesome. I like buck as a character like he's got you dude, you got a square British Wesley. Yeah Oh the guy who looks like John Ham. Yeah, okay. He does look a little like John Ham. Yeah He's awesome. And I'm like, I believe him like he's we see him kill people He's killed like I believe him threatening people and he has and he does and that's what he does as Kingpin's right hand I love him as a character and I want to see more of him in the new season We already do a little bit and I think there's some complexity going on with whatever his backstory is, which is dope, but Daniel bro, it's like I could beat you up like go on somewhere bro. Like ⁓ my god, I will wedgie Yeah, like, oh my god, he looks like he gets shoved in lockers. I feel like that's though, I think that I like what they're doing. So when I say I like him, I love his performance. As a character, he's a really interesting character for what they're doing with Kingpin, because there's very clear political allegories, I think everyone knows what I'm talking about, with what he's doing. And so Daniel is capturing that. very specific kind of person that, like you said, will like suck up so hard that they fail upwards. It's like that scene where he is in trouble because he accidentally told a reporter something he shouldn't have told her and then it got in the papers. He then falls on his knees so damn hard that Kingpin's like, I can't kill this guy. He'll do whatever I say. And that's like a real kind of person that does exist. is. That I have so little respect for. just in characters, people IRL. those people. But it is important that we see that they are real and that they exist and that they're there. like Daniel as a character is capturing that. He's gonna die a horrible death, I'm telling you. This character, he's gonna die so badly. And no, well, I feel like I've already disrespected him. As little disrespect as possible to the actor. I think he's doing a fantastic job. Michael Gannuffin is phenomenal. Yeah, he's doing such a great job that I hate him. He's like, to me, he's like Searcy right now to me. He's capturing the slimeball element so well. Oh my gosh. He's doing a bang the slimiest person. All his scenes with BB, I want to cringe. Oh my gosh. I want to tell the girl, get away from him. But she's also playing him too. was glad to see how clearly that was happening at a certain point. It's like, she has no interest even in being friends with him. It's just like... not really. Sheila is also complex in the fact that like, what do you do in her position? Like, it's your job to like, support the mayor. Yeah. If you're not careful too. Like, he's a dangerous man. You're in a shitty place. I want more of that because that's what I find so intimidating about Kingpin as a character. Like the season three aspect of Daredevil where he's in, if he's in your life, you need to like look over your shoulder. Kingpin's such a good villain because he is both physically and mentally threatening. He can do both by himself if he has to. It's like, what are you doing? Like, I'm not mad at Sheila as a character because it's like, what are you doing that? Position like no you risk your life and fight him with gallo who got his head popped or? ⁓ Well that was that was before He was gonna get his head popped that's the thing she felt it coming Yeah, do you fight him and get your head popped or do you go along with it? And I don't know hope somebody like pulls you out of that's what happened with agent was it named Nadine Nadim in Season 3 and he ended up He paid for it in his death, but he finally did the right thing in his spoilers, in his death. Because he was one of those characters that was like, well, he knows my family. He knows where they're at. He knows their whole routine. Like, what do I do? Like, I kind of have to go along. Otherwise, you know, I'm putting my family at risk. yeah, it's great. Yeah, she's one of the few like really good supporting characters I feel like they've had in this. And I think some of it is like they're within the Kingpin plot. Like, so they had a lot more serialized of a journey through this because a lot of that had to be reshot anyway. Like, I think the characters that suffer a lot, I want to get into this a little bit too, is like Matt's supporting cast that he interacts with. Like Kirsten is fine. I like the actress and I like... the character as an idea but she doesn't do a lot yet. think they're gonna do more with her now but she doesn't do a lot. Cherry also feels like a weird replacement for other characters like he almost feels kind of like a Ben Urick replacement in some cases. I don't really know why they had him be such a prominent part of this season because it doesn't feel like he knows Matt super well. I like the performance so I'm fine as long as they build him up more this season. Yeah, she's a weird one because like she was so first of all she was in Jessica Jones as a completely different character. The actress. It was like in the first episode for like two seconds. She was in like one scene. mean, it's the first time that this happened across the MCU. Yeah, I think it was a Gemma Chan. She was like Guardians, I think. now she's ⁓ yeah, she was. I like the actress there, too. Like I think these could all be really good. performances if they would just, you know, give them characterization and stuff to do. And I think they're going to now, but like this season, a lot of that's just not there. Yeah. That's, that's like the sense that I got the whole time. I was like, there's so much potential here and I don't know exactly why it's being squandered. It's pretty clear that it's like behind the scenes stuff going on, but I would like to see what they can do when whoever's doing the good cooking, let that person cook. I don't know if it's the showrunners or if it's like the past showrunners, whatever it is, but like clearly someone's got some good ideas here and some of them are showing they aren't quite given the room to breathe. Well, I wanted to transition into Evan's topic soon too, because I think you're kind of touching on that now, because yours was too many tropes, right? Yeah, so... Yeah, that's name of my topic is too many tropes. So off the bat, we've talked about this before. I don't think any story can be completely original. There's always gonna be similarities you can draw. But your story should have something that makes it unique or at least something that it does really well. And I think you guys have pointed to a couple of things that this show does decently, but most of my reaction watching this was that like this show kind of only has tropes. The only exception I'll give is Kingpin becoming mayor. I was like, that's a new thing. I haven't seen that in anything else where a mob boss becomes an actual political leader and not just a behind the scenes force. Like he is the guy both on paper, in power and in practice. The closest thing I can think of is Lex becoming president, but that happens. I don't think that's happening in like a live action movie yet. No, it's happening in the cartoon, which is always interesting to see that, I think. I want them to really dive into it in the movies at some point. I think it's even probably a little bit better to do it at a more localized level, just for story reasons. So that's like one thing I'll give it where... And I don't think they spent enough time in the right places to make that as interesting as it could be, but I was like, okay, cool. That's a fresh idea. Other stuff that this does though, like I'm just gonna list off all the tropes that this has. Vigilantes, hotshot lawyers, bank heists. mob shit, local politics, characters in therapy, trying to give up your life of crime fighting, hiding your secret identity from your loved ones. Like some of those are just like elements, not necessarily tropes, but we've seen all these things before. I feel like a lot of that is in Spider-Man 2. Yeah, I mean it's a lot of that is in Spider-Man 2. I think we've seen every one of those tropes in a superhero context and we've seen it done better. is the other thing. Like I can name a better superhero story version of every single one of those tropes that we've done just in something else. And I think it's fine if you have a few of those. And the show's not even doing a bad job at any of them. But it's just that like, okay, I've seen this all before. There's other movies that I've said, like I thought that about Blue Beetle when I saw it. It's like, this isn't... even doing a bad job at anything. Like if this came out in 2005, it would be great. But since it came out after all these other things that have done it, it's like, okay, I've seen that in four other movies at this point. Do you have anything for me? And I kind of felt that here. It was an accident. My roommate was- Why didn't you watch Blue Beetle, No, I did. I'm wondering how Evan stumbled across Blue Beetle. My roommate was watching it one time, like a few months after it came out and I- I think I missed the first five minutes, but I watched the rest. The one good thing I can say for it is they make Ronald Reagan a villain, which is always a win. the Beatle. I mean, I think, again, it's fine. It's just that it's too late. I get what you're saying. It's handling things that have been done a million times and in a very typical way. I get it. But I think that's an important thing to name as, like, a thing you shouldn't do in storytelling. It's not that the thing is wrong. And I'll even give... something a couple of tropes like I'll allow for a few things that I've seen before if You have something else or if you're doing it really well like ⁓ easy example that I point to a lot like You can have some like dead wife trope things in John Wick because the action is so good and you're not spending too much time on it either Dungeons and Dragons or for the boys Like there's a lot of characters and elements that I don't like in that show But Homelander is something that they is unique to them that they do really, really well. This showed to me, like, I think it could have one of those things. If it turned up the volume, like, and just like gave some sauce to any one of those elements, or probably more than one, because it's also just a quantity thing. Like it's to the point where I'm like, this feels like just a bunch of reheated leftovers. I've seen a few good men. I've seen Inside Man, I've seen The Godfather, I've seen every other superhero movie where they can't tell their significant other that they're a superhero, The fact that the villain knows their... their... secret identity and... but that they also won't say anything to anybody else. I think, partially because it's between the two of them. I was just like, Jesus Christ, he just can't fucking tell ⁓ Heather that he's, like... Come on, Like, are we really doing this again? Because she hates mass vigilantes for no reason other than to create tension, I might add. That was kind of another thing with like some of the themes. I don't know if this quite fits in the same category, but I was like, if you want to talk about half-assing theme, this does it like six times. It's like, okay, people have opinions about vigilantes and the police and local politics. What do we have to say about it? I think what they're saying is go watch The Wire. Sure. yeah, I've come to expect that from Marvel at this point. They're so fucking toothless with every theme that they talk about that I'm kind of over it. You need to do better, Evan. You know, I really must. Thank you, Falcon. I understood that reference. I understood that reference. bold Captain America is being referenced in the same sentence. It feels so just weak in all of the like on the street interviews. It's like, wow, at least at least this kingpin guy is doing something. Okay, what what is he doing? What? And yeah, I promise this is my last point and I'll throw it to you guys. But the trope that I want to harp on the most and this show doesn't even do it the worst. I'm just really sick of it in mostly superhero media. Just like The amount of random violent crime in superhero stories, I'm really over it. Every single story like this where it's not like a big supervillain, it's like they're fighting against random muggers or shakedowns or serial killers. Like when you pair that with extras and some main characters saying like, ⁓ well the police aren't doing anything or they can't do anything about it. I found you as in one night is a big one here. Yeah. And it turns into, I was kind of clocking this time, I'm not the best person to dissect this, but I read it as kind of this subtle form of copaganda, where like, if you're saying the poli- it sounds like a critique of the police, because you're saying, ⁓ the police can't do this thing, they're not effective at their jobs, but what are they not effective at? They're not effective at stopping violent crime. So the obvious solution for that, if you believe that IRL, it's like, the obvious solution is... escalate, them more militarized, which I don't believe in. in real life, we have a lot of evidence that like, the police are a little too well equipped to stop violent crime. It's crazy how relevant the task, the anti-vigilante task force was in more than one way. I mean, they've made multiple shows about it. Like, We Own the City, another show that Jon Bernthal's in, is kind of about, I think it's a criminal element within the police force that has no checks because they have too much power and they have a lot of militarization involved in the way that it's executed. Like, it's very bad. And it's something that, like, TV has been, like, tackling. I'm glad that Marvel's at least, like, talking about it a little bit here, because I think that... some superhero stuff can wind up being very Copaganda-esque because like you were saying like and I was on guard for that they're not effective at stopping violent crime it's like okay we'll make them more effective at stopping violent crime even Batman has stuff where it's like well if you just gave the GCPD all of your stuff it's like no no no because there's a lot of reasons why you don't give the GCPD all of the Batman-esque equipment I mean think of how many times they see Batman and just open fire Exactly, their first instinct in those is to like, is to shoot at him, which is like, they're not talking about helping the people within the system. They touch on it a little bit here with the, with the guy who steals the caramel corn, where he has that whole speech about like, they're willing to spend twice as much to put me in jail, but they're not willing to change the system to actually help me get out from under. And if they'd done more of that here, that would have been really interesting, but they kind of just don't like. I agree, where like, they focus a lot on like, the cops are not effective at stopping violent crime. It's like, but they're also part of the violence is a huge that's what it felt so ambivalent in its stance on the police for so much of it. It's like, didn't know what to do with it. They're the problem, but also they're, some of them, but also all of them, but also, no, not all of them, but there's a lot of violent crime that they should do more about. But then also they could like, It felt so... I don't even want to say inconsistent. It was just like we have no opinion because it's Disney and they are so afraid to give an opinion. They can't lock in on one. Yeah, yeah. Do you have anything you want to say real quick before you go or? ⁓ Nope. Good fun episode. I look forward. We should do season two definitely. I got a movie screening. Virtual screening guys. I got a gift. but, but Jelani will be here for the whole next episode on Daredevil. It'll be fun. Yes. Yeah. See you, See you. But yeah, I see what you're saying. The, the themes stuff, it, Vigilantes was the other, that was the other thing I wanted to get into. Yeah. That's her inconsistent here. have, does this have opinion, like people in the show have a lot of thoughts on Vigilantes and it's like, Vigilante's good, vigilante's bad. ⁓ and I don't think it should come down one way or the other on that because I don't think it's a binary thing. No, we also need an answer to everything. It could be, the point could be to bring up the debate, right? Here's the thing too, cause I can see somebody saying like, ⁓ it lets you make your own decisions. Then what is it offering? What critique is it offering? Cause I don't think you need in like a story with like a ⁓ theme that is too complex to answer. You don't need to give an answer, but you should give something, some sort of insight, show examples of like the theme in action, show characters with different takes on it. I feel like everyone is just left pretty vague. Like, particularly Heather, when she's like, yeah, when Daredevil's like, well, or Matt being himself is like, well, Daredevil saved you, isn't it? So vigilante is good. And she's like, well, no, vigilante is still bad. And it kind of leaves it at that. You could go into it. You could make a good thematic debate. I don't even know if I want this show to do that, but it's giving like so much lip it's what they're setting up though. They're giving so much lip service that they're trying to, yeah, like they're trying to do it, but they're not actually doing anything with it. Exactly. It's annoying to me and I don't want to let Marvel, because Marvel is one of, I think, the worst offenders of just like, we... want to act like we have themes and yet we have nothing to say or we refuse to let our creators say anything. After this maybe I'll tell you about how it felt watching Hoppers but that's not... If you know you know, but I shouldn't bring that into this episode. That was kind of my... the last note I had. If you have more things you want to get into, go ahead. Yeah, no, I agree with you. I think what you were saying about the vigilante thing like... That's definitely one of those elements that they added in to make it more serialized. And I kind of think it's an interesting idea, the idea that Kingpin as a political figure is starting this platform heavily based on like getting rid of vigilantes. But there's multiple problems with that as a storyline here. First of all, nobody seems to hate vigilantes. They kind of talk about it a little in episode one, but even Cherry is like, you know, cops are becoming obsolete vigilantes of the future. The first point of view that they bring up is not that vigilantes are bad necessarily, like his partner kind of talks about it, but it's not that vigilantes are bad, it's that they're kind of also like cops where his partner says, some are deserving of the job, some are psychos. It almost makes it feel like, the cops are bad, but if a vigilante single-handedly makes the decision to save the city, that's good. But also Kingpin wants to get rid of all of them. But why? Because He uses Muse as a sort of fuel against, like, people in masks, but Muse is not a vigilante, and at no point does anyone in the public think that he's a vigilante. Yeah, he's a serial killer with a little bit Yeah, he's a serial killer, he, yeah, the closest we get is, like, he has a critique of, like, Kingpin and the other rich elites, but no one at any point thinks that he's any kind of, like, freedom fighter, as far as I can tell. Like, nothing like that, so... But him using that as a way of like basically attacking his enemies doesn't make any sense within the context of the show either. So it's very sloppily set up. Even then, like they're also not really diving into the complexity of the mask being a way to like embrace your true self. Or is it a way for you to just kind of do whatever you want without any accountability? Which is I think what they tried to make Heather's point of view be, but it's also so simplistic in that like There would be a little bit of hesitation on her part, I think, if Daredevil saved her, even if she didn't change her mind. But we never see her grapple with that. Because there's only like one episode to do it, and she's such a simplified... They wrote her so simply that like, they don't put any teeth into it, like he said. And to kind of like return to the point I started this with, like, we've seen better things about vigilantes before. We have the Dark Knight trilogy, which talks about it a lot and like digs into some of the... I think there are things that that misses, but it's having a conversation throughout that trilogy about like, what does it mean for somebody, for a vigilante to wear a mask and go fight crime? V for Vendetta has a lot to say about vigilantism and the power of wearing a mask and like being anonymous. stuff that's already out there and it does seem like this show I don't know if they have ideas about it in real life the few examples of vigilante violence that come to mind for me like assassination attempts by random people or like just randoms carrying guns in public that is not a like thing that this show seems to be playing in and it's not like a one-size fits all thing. Like, I have my opinions about it. And I think there are, I personally just think there should be less guns in general. like, think it also adds a different element when you have a character like Spider-Man who one is not like he is a vigilante that word gets thrown around in some Spider-Man media, but he is uniquely gifted. He can do things that nobody else in the city can do. Daredevil is basically a regular guy and so is it seems like everyone else here like there may be a little more skills They've taken a taekwondo class and maybe they're packing a little bit. Yeah, some kind of weapon Yeah, someone was like, oh a serial killer who knows karate shows up and then yeah, that's daredevil again Right, like it's a different sort of a cosmonaut video Okay, I'm sure sorry to not get the reference but no, that's fine. I think it does add a different element in a superhero context when somebody is uniquely able, whether through Batman levels of money or Spider-Man levels of ability, like when you are uniquely gifted, that does change things. And I think that is part of the fantasy. Like what if you could, if you could prevent tragedies because you were uniquely gifted, Superman's another person who does that. I think it also adds an element to that. Like Spider-Man doesn't just beat up criminals. He does a lot of like saving people from fires. That is a nonviolent like form. It's still dramatic, but like he kind of prevents like, I don't even want to say natural disasters, but like when accidents happen, he is there. He goes in and helps with the relief. Like he's rescuing people. He's not just fighting bad guys. Yeah. He's not in it for just trying to like beat people up. That's not his motivation. He actually goes out of his way to be non-violent. There's a much different angle that makes it much easier to get behind him. And I think it's okay to simplify the conversation a little bit there, where we can more easily get behind Spider-Man being the good guy. But they also do the work to earn that. Like, they make the character consistent with that. What you were talking about earlier with Daredevil, like, debating between his violent nature. I think there's an interesting angle to go into that with if he wants to enact violence but knows that he shouldn't, that's an interesting conflict. Like, having those impulses may not be something that is his fault, but he has them. And, like, how do you deal with that in a healthy way can be a conflict that comes up. And, like, is this a good thing that he's doing? I think Batman has, like, dealt with that in different... versions of that character. I kind of just wish this had anything to say about it. Or if it doesn't have anything to say about it, I think it should just leave it alone. Make the bad guys cartoonishly bad. Make it okay that he's beating the shit out of people. Or do the Spider-Man thing and make him try to like deliberately... You've said he like doesn't kill but will. break limbs a lot more quickly than a Spider-Man type would. I just find it very frustrating because it's acting like it's having this like important conversation half the time and truly it feels like there's just nothing being said here. Yeah, no, I agree with you. And the thing too is about Daredevil, like, and I mean, you know, if you like watch the original show, they go a lot into this, but basically like Daredevil's thing is a lot different from Spider-Man's thing. I think that what you were talking about with like being uniquely gifted, like in a lot of ways Daredevil is, like the heightened sense thing, they go into a lot of how he interpreted that as a kid. And I mean, you would have seen it in this too, cause like he has the monologue about it where he's like, when I was a kid, I thought that God let me hear like other people's prayers and that like he'd taken something from me basically, but in exchange, he gave me a destiny to like. help people and they go into it a lot in the original show, especially in season three where he's like, I thought that I was supposed to help people. And like, that's why I could hear everything they were saying, but you know, I'm not really sure anymore. And that debate that he has with the violence in there is like a huge part of the show. That's sort of their argument against him being a vigilante is like, he's not doing it just to help people. Like he says he is, he's doing it because he is an incredibly angry person and he doesn't know how else to get his anger out. And he doesn't know how to like really handle those things, which I think is why they also had, this is like the third storyline where he's given up being daredevil for one reason or another, whether it's like a physical issue or like, you know, he loses somebody, whatever, but this is like the third time they've done it, which I think is why it feels so repetitive now, even for someone maybe who hasn't seen it. It's so repetitive because I think they alluded to maybe him doing it before. Also, I've seen Spider-Man 2, I've seen Dark Knight Rises. Yeah. They even do on the Punisher show. In the Punisher show. They had like the weirdest creative decision ever where like, they show like a short montage of him being the Punisher at the beginning of that show after he was in Daredevil Season 2. He gave up being the Punisher again and he was kind of like pulled back into it. Someone compared him, I don't remember who it was, but someone compared him to like, they turned the Punisher into Wolverine. where he's not like going after bad guys necessarily until he's pulled back into it. All of a sudden he's like pulled back into his violent life. They're kind of doing that with Daredevil now too. And I think that's why there's elements of it I like here. Like I like more than I used to the way that they build up him becoming Daredevil again. Because I think especially in the White Tiger episodes, he has to grapple a little bit more with how the world is seeing vigilantes and what that means for him and like how he actually feels about it. So like it kind of makes sense. But then they just keep doing it over and over and over again. And every time you think he's going to come back and it looks like he's going to come back, he doesn't until he kind of does out of nowhere. And then he's only Daredevil for like three episodes after that. And it's very it's a very weird way to do it. But I like it more than I used to, because I think that if they had actually had the they given themselves the room. to really have him be like, I got so far into the violence that I don't know if I can do this again without trying to kill somebody like he did with Bullseye. But they never do that. And that could have been a very good way of like tackling the vigilante theme too, is because it's like when you praise one person for single-handedly punching crime, basically, is that any better than sort of advocating for a more militarized police force? You're basically saying, like you said, that they have the the real problem is that they don't have the means to stop violent crime. They're not enough. But also you're trying to say, like, well, is the violence OK in the first place? It's not. It's not the way to handle it. The way is to, like, reevaluate the system and fix it to actually help the people and see what is driving people to do these things that they maybe wouldn't have to do if everybody was provided for. But and given that he's a lawyer, I think Daredevil could be a character to explore that with. ⁓ yeah. That's what he does in the comics. You mentioned the guy who gets caught shoplifting, like, that's an ex- I think the only example maybe from this season where they're pointing to, like, like systemic issues driving on-the-street crime. Mm-hmm. It's partly a genre problem that, like, you're here to see the superhero fight the supervillain, or at least do some crime fighting. And again, that's why I like Spider-Man better, because he can- do that in ways that aren't just punching people in the face. It's not dealing with those things, I think, in the right way, but we're pointing to some solutions that I think are... I think they're too obvious for me to be able to say that, like, the showrunners are ignoring them deliberately. ⁓ no, they're not. Also, you gotta remember, too, they changed... they did what they could. They changed halfway through. There's no way they could have done all these things. This is just... we have the benefit of hindsight. Yeah. And we also are pitching this without knowing what, like, their bosses are telling them. So I always try to give grace for that, like, just benefit of the doubt. You guys probably had your hands tied in some way. Again, my critique goes back to just Disney being cowardly with how it does things. It's not new, but I'm gonna keep calling them out on it until they stop. Because I think it's just it's not just that it doesn't like align with my views on this I don't even necessarily need the show to do that But it's actually making the story worse. Yeah, I understand the resistance. I don't expect them to stop But it's still I think very limiting So I think it's worth calling out I think it's also not worth it if It's kind of that thing where they're deliberately paying lip service to it to make it seem like they're tackling themes, which I think is worse because it's like you're hinting at these themes. You know, these things are a problem, like especially with the cop stuff, right? Like, you know that this Punisher culture is existing in real life and you're pointing it out enough to like have it be a part of the story to see if it adds some dramatic flair to it. But you're also refusing to actually address the problem. It would be better for you not to touch on it at all if you're going to ignore it anyway. Like, don't use issues like that as a means of, like, creating drama and then say absolutely nothing about it. You know? Well, I think a good version of that, and I won't get too into this, I think the new Batman movie does a good job of this, where it's like, we're going to use this movie to reevaluate Batman's legacy, like, kind, and just how he's existed as a character, and, you know, make the Riddler an imitator of him. minor spoilers for the Batman, but I don't know if that is the kind of route that they should take with the Punisher. I'm not as familiar with the character, which is most of why I'm not gonna weigh in too much on that. But there are ways to do it. Again, we have pitched some pretty simple solutions that I'm sure somebody else in the room said these things or thought them, tried to move things in that direction. Clearly somebody said no. don't think we're pioneers in that sense. No. We are not dropping any, like, crazy, like, galaxy brain takes here, I don't think. And this is after, like, a week of thought. I'm sure these people who worked on it for months, like, explored these routes to some extent. So, again, L's for Disney and Marvel. But it's not shocking. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Did you have more notes or...? No. I am good to end if you are, I won't cut you off if you're not done. Yeah, only thing I wanted to kind of do, and I wish Jelani was here for this part, is like kind of the reason that I think a lot of these issues are not necessarily going to be the same moving forward is because I think that they're deliberately tackling a lot of these themes just based on what I've seen in the premiere of season two and like what I've heard about it. Like I think all of the elements that they kind of tried to weave in to make it more serialized, like the whole theme about corruption of power with Kingpin and the way his administration is working, the whole thing with vigilantes, the themes that they're doing with Matt's Catholicism and things like that, the complexity of his level of violence, I think they're hinting that that's going to be a much bigger part of this season. So I think that all of the problems we talked about, while it doesn't make up for a season that is pretty inconsistent, it is also like this new season, I think, has the benefit of not having the trappings and the issues that season one had. I hope so. Because this gave us a good taste of like what this show can be. Yeah, exactly. I think even episode one did as well. I was like, ⁓ this might have a pretty high ceiling. So why are you like 10 feet below that? Exactly. Yeah. And the other episodes are not bad. It's just like they're clearly a version of the show that was very different. Like I actually really like the Bank Heist episode. I think it's a lot of fun just on its own to watch. It's like a really good time. I've watched that a few times just by itself. Like it's a lot of fun to watch, but it doesn't contribute to anything in the rest of the show, like at all. And neither do a lot of the other ones. Like the White Tiger stuff absolutely does, even if it's not handled as well as it could be. And like the Muse stuff doesn't really mean anything, honestly, except the way that it's used by Kingpin, but Like, there's- It's inefficient. I could go into, like, how this fits so well with, like, the other problems I have with the MCU, but whatever. I don't need to do that. I think it's been said by other people. I mean, if you have thoughts, that's cool. If you want to, we could also talk about it more in, season two. Maybe. I mean, it's just that, like, this could have been a movie-length thing. Like, if we're talking about connectivity and, I don't know how they're planning to connect this to the rest of the MCU, but I know that I have felt an efficiency problem in a lot of their one-off movies. It's like, okay, you have about 10 minutes of material that actually matters in this two-hour movie, and maybe five or 10 more that are actually entertaining to watch. So why did you spend $150 million? and I spent two hours on something that barely matters. I felt that same spirit here. Like, you had some good stuff, and everything else was like, passable enough that, you know, I wouldn't have kept watching if I didn't need to, but I wasn't actively bored. I just was never engaged. It's midness, in a word. It's just mid. Nothing here is surprising from what Marvel has given us so far. I hope that they can raise the bar for themselves for season two because they've shown their hands. They can make some good stuff with this show. If all of season two is like the finale, I might actually really enjoy it. I think they're hinting at it. I think honestly, because like the finale goes into everything they want to go into in the other episodes. And there's also even just in one scene, they capture the relationship between Matt and Punisher so well, just ideologically. You know, where he like, Johnny was saying he's like the devil on his shoulder, telling him to, that he's got it. He's like, he's not going far enough is always the Punisher's point. I think we're probably both under the feeling that like, no, it's that the Punisher goes too far, but it's good for Matt to grapple with that, especially when he gets close to the edge so often. make it an interesting dichotomy. I think other superhero media has. If you're going to steal, at least steal the good version of it. If like, maybe it's been done before, but at least make it good. And I think that is one of their better areas, too. The dichotomy? Yeah, the contrast between Daredevil and Punisher. They could keep doing that. Potential's there. It has got to deliver. Yeah, I think that's a good place to end, but we'll definitely see in the next season. And at the time of recording, like, episode one's already out, and this week, season two is gonna have two episodes coming out, so I think that they're gonna jump to that more. Especially with Jessica Jones showing up. She's also, like, another version of the two of them. She's definitely closer to Daredevil, like she also doesn't seem like she kills, but like, ideologically, she is also struggling with like, what being a hero means in like a different way. And I don't want to go too much into that. We'll definitely talk about that in season two, because I'm sure they're going to go into it there. But I think we're good. Cool. Upcoming episodes, we will be doing Daredevil season two. Jelani's next pick is going to be The Long Walk, the Stephen King movie from this past year. I haven't seen it yet. Yeah, me neither. He's very excited about it from what he's told us. then we'll also be doing The Boys Season 5 at some point. We're not sure on the order for these yet, but that's all on the pipeline. Do all the like, share, and subscribe things on whatever platform you're on for this. Leave reviews if you want. Let us know what you want to hear us talk about, too. We're open to suggestions. I haven't said that in a while, but leave that in whatever comments you can. Uh, you can also find us on Instagram, blueskyandtiktok at int analysis pod. That is our TikTok handle, right? Yes. Okay. I'm on Instagram, letterboxd, bluesky, uh, yes, just those three at ev underscore Wes. Jelani socials will be in the description along with the rest of ours, but you can go ahead and put he's Jelani C. Kelly pretty much everywhere. Everywhere. Right? Yep. Yeah. Yeah. And then my socials are, um, I'm on Instagram. at angelmichelli.film. I'm also on Letterboxd at Serenity Cinema. They won't let me put up a review of Daredevil because it's a TV show, but I would love to. And on the TikTok, we're also going to start trying to do more new things, like different from Instagram. But one thing we want to do is like kind of talk about our thoughts on Daredevil, Born Again Season 2 as it progresses. And then also we're going to try to do the same with The Boys and maybe add in some other like... little elements here. We're experimenting with different things, but yeah, like Evan said, let us know if you have suggestions, because we'd love to hear what you guys want to see. What stuff you like, what stuff you don't like, you know, anything. Whether it's stuff you want us to like, cover, that can be like, full episodes or topics. You're welcome to suggest topics for upcoming things that we're planning. Yeah, otherwise our logos by Kelsey Hendry. 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