Bryan Loomis: This is Cinema Field Guide, a podcast that surveys the breadth and depth of film history, one movement or microgenre at a time. And today we are talking about our short king, Bruno Schleinstein. What a guy. Felicia, what what Felicia Maroni: Love him. Bryan Loomis: what movie are we talking about today? Felicia Maroni: Today we're revisiting a podcast favorite director, Werner Herzog, and we're talking about his film from nineteen seventy seven, Strozeg. And we are in still early enough in his career, but this is really when Herzog becomes the Herzog name where people just know him. And but what the film is about, it's about Bruno Schrozeg and He is released from prison and warned to stop drinking. He has few skills and fewer expectations, but he does have a Glockenspiel and an accordion. And he wants to have a living for himself as a street musician. He ends up befriending Ava, who's a prostitute down on her look and they join his neighbour Scheitz, a elderly eccentric, when he leaves Germany. to go live in none other than Wisconsin, America. A Bryan Loomis: Yeah. Felicia Maroni: place I've personally have never been. So this is my only frame of reference no. Bryan Loomis: Never been to Wisconsin? It it's I I grew up in the Midwest. I've been to Wisconsin Felicia Maroni: Mm. Bryan Loomis: a handful of times. But yeah, it it tracks. It's it's a pretty good Felicia Maroni: Yeah. Bryan Loomis: representation of of like rural, rural Wisconsin. Felicia Maroni: Mm-hmm. Bryan Loomis: There are some cities. There are some cities in Wisconsin. So Felicia Maroni: Nice. Bryan Loomis: but yeah, very cool. Well, we've Like you mentioned, covered Herzog already. thought we could just talk a little bit about where he was when he made A Geary Wrath of God and how he got here to where he's releasing StroSak, sort of what happened in the meantime. You wanna take us through that, Felicia? Felicia Maroni: Yeah, so by the time we get to Aguirre Wrath of God, which kind of is his breakthrough film, even though it took a while for that to break through, he then goes on to make the Enigma of Caspar Hauser two years later, so in nineteen seventy four, which also stars Bruno S. from this film. and that film did very well, oddly enough, even though it's again Bryan Loomis: Mm-hmm. Felicia Maroni: we've spoken about this. Some of the films that did very, very well within this movement are not as spoken about today. And it's definitely not one that I think people who know Herzog have probably even seen, unless you could do a deeper dive, which is unfortunate. I watched it for the first time for this as prep and fell absolutely in love with it. I c would consider it one of my favourite of his. It's fantastic. then after that he goes to do Heart of Glass, which is a very interesting film, very different, Bryan Loomis: Mm-hmm. Felicia Maroni: very along the heartzog vein of filmmaking, and then he ends up making Strozek. And at this rate and then, you know, right after that he goes to make Nasphora too, his adaptation of it, which is a film that is very huge and still to this day is spoken about a lot and very revered. At this rate in Herzog's career, as you said, like he becomes the Herzog that we know and love. And then he goes on later to make the documentaries that a lot of people have seen. Bec if you recall from our first intro episode, we talked about how a lot of the directors within this movement made a point of Not turning themselves, maybe that's not the best way of saying, but end up being personalities in their own right outside of just their filmmaking. And Herzog is very much probably the top person who's a personality, versus his filmmaking. There's some people who know who Vernon Herzog is and have never seen a single film of his. he's still very prominent and I love that for him that he's just stayed up with the times and loves adapting to new things, but in this part of his career, in the narrative filmmaking, this is probably his peak. of course he does go on to make Vitzgaraldo, which is also fantastic, but this is a great Bryan Loomis: Yes. Felicia Maroni: part of his career. Bryan Loomis: Yeah. I think it helps that he does have so much of this persona and the films that he is releasing around this time have these great narratives around them that you can sort of understand the vision and it's like a The making of the film is a great story as well. There's Felicia Maroni: Mm-hmm. Bryan Loomis: some some great stories about the making of this film, but also, you know, we we talked through Aguirre and some of the wild, wild stories about that going into the South American rainforest to to film. Casper Hauser is his first collaboration with Bruno Schleinstein. So it is this. balance of using this non-professional actor who's very much a force of nature and creating his own acting style that contrasts with some of the acting styles around him and how Herzog is able to use that to create a a film that really works with that contrast. So that that's a really interesting one. And then Heart of Glass is a wild story because he hypnotized all of the actors before all of the takes and then got these really like subdued and strange performances out of them. So he's always like whether or not he's intentionally crafting these narratives around the film, I think he is to some degree, but also like they're the the making of the films. just turn into great stories that you can tell when you're being interviewed at Cannes or promoting the film otherwise. And so that builds the notoriety not only of the films and gets them more widely seen, but builds the cult of Herzog as well during this time. So he's right sort of in the middle of that and is really a name at this point. Felicia Maroni: Yeah. I mean there's definitely been documentaries made based on, you know, the experiences he's had on his sets. Namely probably the most popular one would be Burden of Dreams and that's about him filming Fitzgerald and the stress of having to be around Klaus Kinski, which I can imagine would be a nightmare. it's a fantastic documentary, one I'd highly recommend, and you get to hear a lot of through like you get to see a lot of Herzog's mindset and how he just decides that he's going to make films in the most chaotic way. I don't think they need to be this stressful, but I think he attracts chaos. But it turns he turns it into something very beautiful. Most people I don't think have that skill, so good on him. I would not be able to do that. Bryan Loomis: Yeah. Love Burden of Dreams would also recommend people check that out. Like the the the when he's talking about like how the birds are screeching in the forest and pain Felicia Maroni: Yeah. Bryan Loomis: and all of the it's great. Love that film. Les Blank, great documentary. And also Werner Herzog eats his shoe. shorter Felicia Maroni: Yes. Love that one. Bryan Loomis: shorter runtime, but also great. So he also distanced himself a bit from the movement and didn't really feel like he was part about of that. What can you tell us about that, Felicia? Felicia Maroni: Yeah, it's interesting because reading a lot of interviews with him and when yeah, you know, people bring it up, he doesn't deny that he was making films during that movement, but he doesn't consider himself to be part of the movement and I don't know if it's because in his mind he's making films that are Completely different from what the other directors were making, but as we've seen throughout this series, they're all making very different films. A lot of the themes might be similar, but they're all making different films. That being said, he can distance himself all he wants, but he was, Bryan Loomis: Mm-hmm. Felicia Maroni: you know, he was benefiting from this movement very much, specifically when it comes to the funding. You know, his predecessors who signed that manifesto and decided that they required funding from the government. he was getting enough funding and there was a point, especially at this point right now in his career, and even prior to this, where he was just automatically getting funding because he's Werner Herzog. So he didn't have to apply for funding like the other directors in the movement had to. So I again love the man and you can distance yourself all you want, but you did benefit from you know, New German cinema being a thing. Not that that he couldn't have made his own films because I think he's so stubborn that he would have found a way, but this made it a lot easier for him to just automatically be like, Hey, I'm making a film and they're like, Cool, here's some money. That's the dream. Really. So Bryan Loomis: Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. And I I think yeah, part of what we see as the conditions for inclusion in the movement would be around those Sociological things that are going on, like the funding, like the manifesto, Felicia Maroni: Mm-hmm. Bryan Loomis: and this group of creatives, the Otto Rennfilm group that he is a part of at this time and associating himself with. And so there's that. I think stylistically, there is a lot in common, particularly with this film, with some of the other directors in Felicia Maroni: Mm-hmm. Bryan Loomis: New German cinema, but Herzog's persona is very much that of I'm an outsider. I appropriated the means of production to make films and I'm going to do it my way. And so I do get that he might not want to associate himself with a movement to some degree or just doesn't Felicia Maroni: Mm-hmm. Bryan Loomis: want to be put in a box, probably. So Felicia Maroni: That's fair. Bryan Loomis: Well, this film itself, so we need to talk about Herzog's partnership with Bruno Schleinstein over these two films. What can you tell us about their partnership, how it came to be and and how it works in in these two films? Felicia Maroni: Yeah. I again absolutely did not know anything about Bruno prior to doing research about this, so it's very interesting to hear about his upbringing and how sad it was. But Herzog himself discovered h him by after seeing him in a documentary called Bruno the Black. Bruno had a very rough and tough upbringing. He suffered a lot of abuse as a child from his parents, ended up being in a institution at a very young age, and I know he didn't speak until he was about twelve. you know, as a result of all the abuse and the situations that he was in. There's a lot of stories that he's told through interviews and the stories that he's tells in this film itself that Herzog used about his childhood and the torture that he faced, unfortunately. but he Hartzog discovered him, was very interested in him, and he cast him in the Enigma of Caspar Hauser, as you mentioned, that was their first cl first of two collaborations. And again, now knowing the history behind his upbringing, I feel so kind of I don't know, odd thinking about that film. I I still think it's fantastic. And I kinda love that I didn't know about it until after I watched the film and like the weird parallels between the story, even though this is based on a book, it has nothing to do with his actual Bryan Loomis: Mm. Felicia Maroni: life. It's just h you know, uncanny that there's so many similarities to his real life versus the the character's life in in that film. And I really wonder what it must have been like for him to experience that through acting. as a non professional. Originally he was supposed to make another film first called Voicek, which he does end up making. and he started pre production with Bruno S. as the title character and realize as they were doing that he wasn't correct for it. and that he needed Kinski to be in the film. So he told, you know, Bruno that they they they can't do this. But he felt really, really bad about this because Bruno again, he's a non professional, he has a career that he's working, he has a job, and he had to take time off work to make that film. So Herzog was like, Okay, okay, I'll make another film. I'll I'll write one for you and he Bryan Loomis: Mm-hmm. Felicia Maroni: writes Strozeck in four days and has him as a lead and he kinda builds this character around Bruno using a lot of his own musical talents and a lot of his autobiographical elements of his own life he interjects within Strozek. And Strozek again, I I think to me is probably my favorite of his and is definitely considered one of Hertzog's best narrative films. So the fact that he kind of just accidentally made this film and wrote it in four days and had zero intention of making this is absolutely wild and I don't know that I believe in fate, but I think it's just a fantastic thing that came out of this. I think it's really interesting that it came about this way and was so good. I don't know how his mind thought of the Bryan Loomis: I know. Yeah. Felicia Maroni: story in four days. Bryan Loomis: I know. Yeah, a lot of the I think magic of the movie is that they just captured something while they were going to these shooting locations and finding great images or great ideas. So it is a very feels very spontaneous in a nice way in this film. But yeah, using essentially Bruno Schleinstein as a a jumping Point of we're gonna make this essentially a semi-autobiographical story and use facts about your life and the your musicianship. We're gonna use your flat as the, you know, the place where you live, and all of these details from his life. I think works really well around what. the the magic of their partnership. And like you said, in in Kasper Hauser, there are a lot of similarities with the way that Bruno grew up. And for me, that works really well because Kaspar Hauser is it it doesn't feel exploitative to me because it is focusing a lot on the people around Caspar Hauser and how they are Felicia Maroni: Yeah. Bryan Loomis: treating him and the it it's very critical of that aspect of things while also capturing this very like raw and I wouldn't say naturalistic performance. It also is set in a place that Herzog just just discovered. And the the story around how he discovered this location is pretty wild too. So he is having a conversation with Errol Morris, who's a famous documentarian, maybe the most famous documentarian now. I don't know. Yeah. But At the time was working as an assistant for Hertzog before he had released his his first film. And he was having a conversation with Errol Morris, and we're talking about the serial killer Ed Gaines, who was the bassist for essentially Norman Bates and Psycho. And there were stories about how. Ed Guines had dug up all of the graves surrounding his mother's grave, but they were wondering if he had also dug up his mother's grave. So they decided they were going to go to Railroad Flats, Wisconsin, and dig up his mother's grave to find out if Edge had dig dug up Felicia Maroni: wow. Bryan Loomis: his mother's grave. So Herzog went and then Errol Morris never showed, probably for the best. But that is how Herzog so Herzog went to this place because of this wild wild goose chase that they went on, just wondering about Edgine's mother. So truly a one-of-a-kind person. And that's how he discovered this place and decided, hey, this would be a great place to set a film, and that's how they end up in this location. Actually, Clayton Schlepinsky, the actor who plays the relative of Scheitz is was someone that he met on that first trip and then they cast him. So he's a non professional too who just like lived in the area, which is sort of neat. Felicia Maroni: Mm. Yeah, I again I I don't know that I'm sure this again, as you mentioned, there's a there's a mix of Herzog kind of chasing a story that he knows will be interesting to tell when he does press because it's very much part Bryan Loomis: Yeah. Felicia Maroni: of filmmaking. But also I think that he is just weird enough to do something like, Yeah, I'm gonna go find those like like it kind of an insane thing to do and I'm along the same lines of Errol Morris, where I'm like You know what? Maybe we should not be doing this. This does not seem like this not seem like a good hang. Bryan Loomis: Yeah. I am glad they did not yeah, they didn't dig up a the grave of this poor woman. So Felicia Maroni: Yeah, god. Bryan Loomis: so all right. Well I want to get into the film itself now. So we need to talk about Schleinstein's performance, I think, first and and foremost because it is so unique and special in these two movies. So what stood out to you about Schleinstein and and the way that he's performing, I guess mostly in mostly in this movie. Felicia Maroni: Mhm. Well this the first time I would have seen him would have been in this one when I first watched it a couple of years ago for the first time. And not really having a frame of reference of who he was or that he wasn't a non actor, I remember thinking this is very peculiar style of acting, but I just set myself in the fact that I was in a Herzog film and that there was going to be some sort of I just find that h the the acting in his films is never really natural in the sense that there is like a exaggeration, I find. And I just assume that was part of the way he was directed. And I'm sure maybe there there was direction from Herzog but the way now doing more research into how who he is I think that it was definitely a collaboration between the two and utilizing who he was as a human being and placing him in this. I I remember watching this and really feeling from h for him from start to end. Even though he's very odd and someone that I probably would feel maybe a little uncomfortable around r truthfully. if I was just meet him in real life. without knowing who he was, and you know, why he is the way he is. But there's something very, I don't know, melancholy about him as a person that comes through that makes you feel very empathetic towards him and especially with, you know, his other film that he does with him. But in shows it's especially and to the point where when they decide they're going to America, I I fully get it, where you sometimes you just need to remove yourself from the situation that you're in and have yourself be transported to somewhere that you don't know anything about other than maybe from some movies you've seen. Not that I'm sure he's seen any movies set in Wisconsin, and had seen any at that point, but you know, it's the it's something I do want to talk about later, but the idea of the American dream still is very much a thing. So I I really liked the the brave nature of his performance and how he really captivates a screen. Like it's really hard not to watch him when he's on on screen because he really is such a fantastic presence and so different from Kinsky, where Kinski you kind of feel like it does he want to combat me at all times. Bruno feels like, Bryan Loomis: Yeah. Felicia Maroni: you know, someone who is a more calming presence. So it's so different to see especially this era of Herzog when he's kinda flip flopping between the two actors. I personally prefer the Bruno S movies. I again I love the Kinski ones too, but I d love these two a lot. But how do you feel about Bruno? Bryan Loomis: Yeah. He I think these performances are really phenomenal that he gives here. If I had to guess what's going on here, so Herzog clearly has sees himself as an outsider, but his films wouldn't be categorized as outsider art. Felicia Maroni: Mm mm. Bryan Loomis: he's he's got, you know, enough of a artistic bent that understands film language and tradition and like these are good technical films for the most part. There are some some things in there that you'd be like, you didn't quite get that, you know, cut from scene to scene and the actor is turned in a different way or whatever. And not important for what what the film is is trying to do, but There are some of those technical things where you're like, that could have been cleaned up a little bit. but Herzog Felicia Maroni: Yeah. Bryan Loomis: wouldn't really be considered outsider art, but Schleinstein is truly an outsider, like doesn't show to my eye an indication of knowing the tradition of acting that's been going on in movies for 70 years at this point, but in plays, even longer, like their traditions of How you perform and what you do, and he's got really none of that. And it doesn't seem to me like Hertz, I it seems to me like Herzog wants that. He doesn't want to coach it out of him. But he Felicia Maroni: Mm-hmm. Bryan Loomis: also isn't looking for the sort of non-performances that you see in Straub Houlet or Brisson where they're getting non-professional actors because they want a very minimal or stripped down performance. He is like performing here and going big at times and giving a like capital A acting performance, but he's doing it in his own style. And I think him being a self-taught musician is very important for like how he's able to do this. Like He didn't receive formal music training. He figured it out on his own just by like listening to stuff. And so I think that really benefited his ability in these couple of films to pick up acting and provide his own unique spin without any formal training, really. So I really like these performances. I think they're unique and one of a kind. And he's able to draw on his real and personal experience with marginalization, being, you released from, you know, in this film prison and his own life and institution after a long period of being in there, what it feels like to be talked down to, what it feels like to be beaten up, you know, perhaps. You know, he he has personal experience. It's a very autobiographical thing. And so he's drawing on that and his own perception of his like self taught acting ability, which is really interesting and and I think it it plays it it makes for a really unique film and it makes it a really strong film, I think. Well, i to me watching through Casper Hauser, like the the Bruno performance is even more central there. It's really, really highlighted. Here there's a lot of other things going on that Herzog has created. And then I'd say Schleinstein gets like one or two real feature scenes where he's he's really great in those scenes. But I wanted to just walk through I feel like it's a film of Just notable scene after notable scene that I wanted to talk about like a lot of the content of the movie in particular with this one, even though in this podcast we're focusing a little bit more on like the background and history and how it fits into the movement for this film in particular. I just want to talk about it. So any scenes in in particular, Felicia, that stood out to you watching it that was like, wow, this is remarkable. Felicia Maroni: my gosh, there's so many and I know we'll probably save the the ending for the the end part of this this part of the discussion Bryan Loomis: yeah. Yeah. Felicia Maroni: because I think that's so notable. But I really liked I really liked his relationship, friendship with Ava and their conversations and the way they went about it because it kind of like we've seen a lot of films with you know, two leads who are very chaotic and you know that they could only really be around each other because everyone else is probably gonna be very annoyed by their personality and the energy that they bring off. And it's feels sometimes stressful watching them interact because there's just a lot of energy and a lot of stress in the way they go about their their lives. But I think watching them two interact I I felt a lot of love between them. So when they do part, the parting scene for me, I remember feeling very sad when Bryan Loomis: Mm. Felicia Maroni: she goes off. and goes to Vancouver, Canada, as one does, I suppose. But I Bryan Loomis: Yeah. Felicia Maroni: was like, no, I I fully understood why why she did it though. And sometimes you do need to leave the ones you love, but I really loved that scene. Any of the scenes where we get to see him playing the the accordion, I think the some of the most famous shots, if you Google this movie and Google images, a lot of the shots of him playing the accordion are gonna be what comes up first. But the way that's shot is very beautiful. It did remind me a lot of something like a vendors style of filmmaking and I Bryan Loomis: Mm-hmm. Felicia Maroni: I don't know that he was inspired by him or just they happen to look very similar, but there was something very cinematic in the way that that was shot versus the rest of the film. Not that the rest of the film doesn't look cinematic, but at some point we'll talk about how he kinda wanted to shoot this as kind of a bit documentary esque and you feel that quite a bit, but there's some moments that feel like, you know, they should be on a poster. so getting to see him play The instruments I love this I love the scenes. I love the scenes in America, but I really love the stuff in in Germany because the contrast and colouring and just like the brick in Germany Bryan Loomis: Mm-hmm. Felicia Maroni: is so beautiful to watch and it's so funny to go see him from leave the live you know, from Germany to go to rural part of America, which is really Bryan Loomis: Yeah. Felicia Maroni: not dissimilar to rural part of Canada. That's what was funny to me, because I'm like this Bryan Loomis: Mm-hmm. Felicia Maroni: could be an middle of nowhere Canada. it's always just so funny to me when I hear someone coming from any country but like Europe and you're like, Why are you in the middle of nowhere? Bryan Loomis: Yeah. Felicia Maroni: But, you know, they do start off they go they're in New York for a little bit and they're marveling and that's also really beautiful. but the Wisconsin stuff is very funny to me. I love how everyone kind of feels like a caricature and They're probably not wrong 'cause again, we have those caricatures here too. So those are the ones that stand out to me. Of course the ending has stuck with me since the first time I Bryan Loomis: Mm-hmm. Felicia Maroni: watched it and we'll get into that, but I'm I'm curious to hear what scene stood out to you before we get to that one. Bryan Loomis: Yeah, somewhat similar. I think the real Bruno highlight scenes are very, very good. So his song that he plays in the alley with the accordion and the Glockenspiel, and he's doing these like performance, you know, interjections along with just playing the song. And it seems like something that he's just like played on the street a hundred times and really like nailed the performance of and Herzog's just capturing this guy and and what he's really talented at. So I really love that scene. And then the relationship with Ava, and in particular, their long conversation in the trailer that's really the final confrontation thing before she leaves, where they're talking about. He he basically brings a model that he's made and he's like, This is a representation of how I feel to start the conversation, which is so sweet and sad. And Felicia Maroni: I know. Bryan Loomis: then yeah, that that conversation, and you really do get a little bit more of what Ava is feeling of just like being smothered, and I'd like to sleep in a different room from you, and all of this stuff. And so it's a good balance of where their two characters are from where they started the movie and why they end up going separate ways from there. So and you get a little bit more about the thematic material from the film of well, in Germany we were oppressed like this, but in America we're being oppressed like this, and it's different, but it's just as bad in the end. So I I like that contrast that's drawn and I think their performances really sell Eva Mattis is really phenomenal in this film and elsewhere in New German cinema, but Working with a really unconventional performer here, I think she really brings something out in him and is good at how to respond to somebody who's performing probably unlike anybody you've ever performed with. So I think she she does a really good job in in those scenes, especially. so many little Images in here that I think are phenomenal. Herzog is a great crafter of images, and so the premature baby that's clinging to the doctor's fingers as it's lifted Felicia Maroni: my gosh. Bryan Loomis: up, the moment where Bruno's stuff, his mobile home and television set are being auctioned off, and you've got like that. Cattle farmer auction thing is like really fast talking and it's just the most like humiliating thing for him to be like standing there seeing his stuff get auctioned off in these ways. So I think there are things that like this this film hits beats and topics and themes that we've seen elsewhere in films and even in the movement, but the way it goes about them and those particular images, Bruno watching. his mobile home get driven away and then being left with this barren landscape behind it that's just wide open and filled with nothing. Like those images are really, really special. And none is more special perhaps than the end of the film. So I'll let you talk about that first, Felicia, the way that this film ends. Felicia Maroni: Yeah. It's I didn't notice this but supposedly at this point in his career Herzog had included a chicken scene in all of his films and someone had Bryan Loomis: Mm. Felicia Maroni: asked him about it and he's like, it's cause I hate chickens and I think they're really stupid Which is an insane Bryan Loomis: Mm-hmm. Felicia Maroni: thing to say out loud, but also to be like, Well be I now need to include them into my film so we have a scene they're at s some sort of it's a ski lodge, but there's like a fair and entertainment section of this ski lodge for the families, obviously, it's so that they're entertained. and one of the entertainment booths is a chicken who dances. feels very small town. Feels not dissimilar to something I would probably see in a town that I grew up in. and we get a lengthy scene of The chicken dancing intercut with Bruno being on the ski lift and his eventual, death. He takes his own life. We don't see it on the screen, but we hear the shot and we see his body still being on the lift and the police coming and we're cutting between that the sirens, the ambulance coming, Bruno going up the ski lift. and the dancing chicken. And at this point it the film doesn't feel incredibly heavy, but there are definitely heavy moments and we're getting to a point in his life where it is heavy. And it's weird 'cause it kind of feels like a release for obviously Bruno's character and the audience, but it's also incredibly sad and so odd to be watching the character we follow die but also a dancing chicken at the same time. Bryan Loomis: Yeah. Felicia Maroni: I've read a lot of people say that this film has a lot of comedy elements to it and Herzog's version of comedy is incredibly dark. And if you don't believe that this scene solidifies it entirely where it's an editing choice that's wild and I don't think a lot of people could get away with it, but it works. for this. It's very memorable. I remember just being like jaw on the floor when watching this and the credits rolling, be like, Wow, that's a way to end a film. Wild. Bryan Loomis: It's wild. Yeah. The the chaos that's created in this ending scene. I could talk about that dancing chicken forever. I think it it functions. I don't know if if this was just I mean it's it's just something that they found and filmed, but the reason I love it is that it works on a metaphorical level of sort of what Bruno is leaving behind of this. Endless struggle, doing what others have trained you or want you to do so that you can receive rewards. The chicken is like it gets food every time it dances, and that's how it's been trained Felicia Maroni: Yeah. Bryan Loomis: to dance. So this idea of like the the dancing chicken being what Bruno has gone through for this whole film of trying to fill other people's expectations and Even from the very beginning of the film, like the conversation with The Warden, who has appeared in another film we've covered. I don't know if you recognize this actor. The Warden is Felicia Maroni: Hmm. Bryan Loomis: the professor in Yesterday Girl. So he Yeah, Felicia Maroni: my god. Yeah. Bryan Loomis: he maybe was typecast, but he is great at being this pretentious person who is talking down to people who are like the main character of of the film for one reason or another. So And also shows up in Casper Hauser. He's the one who tells the riddle at Caspar Hauser's house and Casper Hauser has this unique way of solving the riddle and he's like, No, no, there's only one way for the riddle to Felicia Maroni: Yes. Bryan Loomis: be solved, sort of thing. So he's constantly like Enforcing the societal expectations upon the main characters. So he's really good in those sorts of roles, but that's all I've seen him do. So Felicia Maroni: That's so funny. Bryan Loomis: but yeah, really, really good. So, anyway, he is warning Bruno: okay, here is what's going to be expected of you now that you are no longer in prison. And even if like the advice is good, like Bruno probably should stop drinking and his life would probably be better and he wouldn't get in as much trouble. The way in which he goes about it without a relationship with this person, just saying, I've read essentially your rap sheet and I've discovered what was the problem that was causing you to get in prison, and I'm gonna tell you before you go out what to do. Of course. Bruno's gonna go immediately and have a drink after that conversation. Like you don't even know the guy. So I think that's that's a good way to set up and then reflect you know, reflect it in the end of like what are the expectations? What are what roles are we expected to play in order to fit in in society and then Bruno ultimately decides that he does not want to be a part of that because there's no way that he is found to participate and still be himself to preserve that aspect of himself. And yeah, it's incredibly sad. it's a dark ending. But the humor for me, I think in a Giray I said the humor was a little bit distracting to me from like Felicia Maroni: Mm-hmm. Bryan Loomis: the tone of the movie and what it's trying to do. I don't feel that way here. I think the humor is real central to the tone of the movie and enhances its sadness in a way. Felicia Maroni: Yeah. I think it's this film requires a a level of humor, otherwise it's just gonna be so dark and sad and I don't think that Herzog's films are like the really he always tries to find the light in the darkness and you see that even in his documentaries where he tries to find a balance. It's mostly sad but y The balance is very good because I just I don't know, it would be I feel like I'd still like it if it was obviously very, very sad and and dark, but it helps that we have little moments of levity, even if it's through a dancing chicken. Bryan Loomis: Yeah. Okay, I wanted to talk a little bit about the character of Ava, and I'm a little mixed on this. I'm wondering what you think, Felicia, of does Ava work as an actual character with her own like thoughts and desires and arc, or is she more of like a plot device or foil for Bruno? Like does Herzog really care about? Her character or is it just more of a we need to move the plot along and this is a good way to do it, you know? Felicia Maroni: Y yeah, you know what? I hadn't even really thought too much about it until you brought it up in the points here. And in my immediately I was like, no, she works as a character but then all the points I was bringing up, well, I was like, Well, she works because, you know, he wouldn't have probably the courage or even the thought to move to America and I'm like, Well, then she's this there to move the plot along and But then she does have her own mindset of, you know, I'm deciding to leave you and go to Vancouver and all that, but maybe that's also just a part of the plot to you know darken Bruno's story. It's a feeling very mixed about it too. I and then I'm thinking about his other films and the women in his other films and I was like, maybe Herzog is not the best Bryan Loomis: Mm-hmm. Felicia Maroni: in writing women. You know, there's other directors who are much better, like a fastbender or even a vendors even though I don't think he's even the strongest either. But Herzog, I hadn't thought about it, but I don't know that he I think he always aligns himself with the lead in some sort of way, and so he often has male leads. I'm trying to think other films that might have had a Bryan Loomis: Yeah. Felicia Maroni: woman in the lead, but I don't think there have. I don't know. Bryan Loomis: Well, I'm excited to see his new one because I think it does star as stars the the Mara sisters, Rooney Mara and Kate Mara. And so that could Felicia Maroni: yeah. Bryan Loomis: be an interesting dynamic for for a Herzog film, and I'm excited to see Felicia Maroni: Yeah. Bryan Loomis: what they do there. But yeah, he is very he's mostly focused on a male central character. I think Eva it it The character isn't as bad as it could have been. I think you can understand her actions and they make sense. She's not really looked down upon for the sex work, which is good. The pimps are much more the locus of critique than Ava herself, so I think that that works well in the dynamics of the film. And you do hear she is allowed to voice her perspective when talking with Bruno. And you do understand why she leaves. So I think I feel most mixed about the scene where she leaves just feels a little sudden and like it's more for Bruno and his development. Felicia Maroni: Yeah. Bryan Loomis: than really truly sending off or making a character. But I do, yeah, like you said, I get why she doesn't given that earlier conversation of she's just feeling smothered, this, you know, dynamic isn't working for her and so she just needs to leave. So yeah. I think it's fine, Felicia Maroni: Yeah. Bryan Loomis: but could be better. Felicia Maroni: Could be better, definitely could be worse. We've seen worse in our movie watching careers, but yeah, I I am curious to see what he does with the new one. And going through I realize I guess he also did one other film with a lead. I hadn't seen this one, Queen of the Desert, with Nicole Kidman. She's the lead Bryan Loomis: haven't seen it. Felicia Maroni: in that one. So I'd be interested. I haven't heard any. I Bryan Loomis: Well now I have to go watch that. Yeah. Felicia Maroni: know. Now I'm like, Okay, well I gotta, you know. We'll see to prep myself. See how he does with it. I love her. Fantastic. Bryan Loomis: Nicole Kidman's great. Yeah. So yeah. But if we haven't heard of this movie, then maybe it's not his best. So that's unfortunate. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Felicia Maroni: I know. that was my assumption that I'll I'm a completist, so I I eventually will watch it. Bryan Loomis: Yeah, we'll give it a chance. Yeah. Felicia Maroni: Exactly. Bryan Loomis: Okay, do you want to talk about Herzog's version of America? Like what does he think of America given this film? Felicia Maroni: Mhm. I love when a director who's not from I'm gonna say North America because I I'm also not from the United States and I know that we have a lot of similarities and there's a lot of differences, but North America as a whole still especially Amer United States and Canada have more in common. Bryan Loomis: Mm-hmm. Felicia Maroni: so I find it very fascinating when a director I'm sure he had obviously had been to America before this, but he his career leading up to this was not based in America and this is the first film really that he's making where it's sets at least half of it in the States. So it's always interesting to me to see their version of America. We see that even with vendors and how like Paris, Texas is considered one of the best American films. he's not American but he is working with Americans instead in America and it's a fantastic vision of how he sees America. Herzogs is quite different 'cause the way he's portraying it and I I don't think that he's being dismissive and again reading him speaking about it and I see this even through the film, but it does seem like a bit of a dark caricature of itself and very much feels like someone who's coming from a different culture, especially a European culture where their way of living is always gonna seem higher living than ours. Every most North American people think of Europe as the you know, the pinnacle of culture, really. So it's always interesting when a European comes over and they're like, Well this is not how we do things over here. And I don't think that's what he's doing. I think that he's portraying it the way he sees it. And some of it is, you know, this sometimes the stereotype is true. And you're seeing these characters, you know, people dressed up as in cowboy attire, people even like the auctioneer. Those are real things that happen over here and they're highlighted and sometimes they're a little bit exaggerated in this film, but I do find that his interest in going specifically to rural life America, one that even a lot of American filmmakers would not necessarily shoot in or create stories around this part of Wisconsin, is fascinating to me that he decided this is the place I'm gonna set my film in and this is the place that these characters are going to decide. they're gonna live their American dream in. but I think her sog is like, is that even attainable? Can you achieve this? And what is the American Dream? I'm sure everyone's version of it is quite different. but I think and to me watching this, that's what I felt kind of was the point of his character going over there, where he's trying to make himself have a better life. And it just ends up being like you know, you're going to be doesn't matter where you are, th the hardship will come to you, unfortunately. so I find it very interesting that he goes to that part of America. I'm curious to hear and this is maybe too much of a loaded question, but as you being from America, how do you feel about directors coming in who are not from, you know, North America and kind of portraying it in a slightly darker light. Even if you don't think they're judging, but it's it is a darker Bryan Loomis: Yeah. Felicia Maroni: light. Like the he does not have a good time in America at all. Is it is it odd? Bryan Loomis: Yeah. I think no, I I think you couldn't do that for every country. Like I'd be very skeptical of going to you know a different country and doing this, but I think America is so internationally known and prominent that it's sort of fair game. Felicia Maroni: Mm. Bryan Loomis: And sometimes it does take that outsider perspective to notice certain things about a place or a culture that's different from your own. That when Herzog comes to America, he may be noticing all of these things. One because he hurt Herzog, and two because he's from Germany, that I just sort of take as a given or wouldn't think about otherwise. I the scene where They're talking about these two farmers who have been arguing over this barren strip of land between their two farms, and you see them riding on tractors with shotguns past each other, like making sure the other one isn't trying to farm this stretch of land that's become sort of like a stalemate area, is like he just nails it. That's a hundred percent like something that would happen, especially at this time, you know. Now they've got they'd get probably the government involved and they have mapping of all of the different parcels and things where you would know who who it belongs to. But that perception of the culture and the territorialism and Everything that's going on with the materialism and the importance of money in America, like he really nails those aspects of it. And I I think it it is really great. And we need Americans to make films about America and we need outsiders to make films about America because they have some really unique insights that they can bring that we wouldn't necessarily see. Felicia Maroni: Yeah, and I think there are a huge number of German or Austrian directors who've come to America and made some fantastic films prior to the two within this this movement, you know, Venders and Herzog, but we have like Fritz Lang, we have Douglas Sir coming over, working within the Hollywood Bryan Loomis: Mm-hmm. Felicia Maroni: system, of course, making American films and their version of what America is. And I just always find it really interesting to see when European or a South American or anywhere in the in the world they're Bryan Loomis: Mm-hmm. Felicia Maroni: coming over to make North American films. Actually n American films because no one comes over to make Canadian films. No one ever does. The only time Bryan Loomis: Yeah. Felicia Maroni: I ever see Canada being made it's one never shot in Canada, but it's usually just making fun of Canada. So I'm part of me is also jealous that you guys at least get good directors portraying 'cause every time I see Canada it's always just some talking about maple syrup, it's cold and the most exaggerated accent I've ever heard in my life. And I'm like, we need someone who's gonna come over and see that we're not as boring as people Bryan Loomis: Mm. Felicia Maroni: think we are. We're still boring, for sure. There's a lot more going on in Can the States, but there's there's some interesting cultural parts to to Canada, so this is an open call. for directors to come in. That being said, give Canadian directors some funding too. But you Bryan Loomis: Yeah, absolutely. Felicia Maroni: know, like you said, it's nice to have different perspectives on what you sometimes just take for granted 'cause it's just part of your everyday life. So it's always really cool to see someone else see something you find really boring, that's very beautiful to others and we see that in this film, 'cause there's a lot of beauty that we see in this film and we see it in something like of course the most, you know, famous example of this would be Paris, Texas. That most people would come across that land and be like, This is nothing and it's shot by Robbie Mueller as like the most picturesque landscape Bryan Loomis: Yeah. Felicia Maroni: of all time. So I do appreciate Herzog's version of America and that he's outward like been very vocal about the fact that he's like I can see why p some people might think that I am being judgmental, but I'm not. I'm fascinated by how odd and quirky but real and honest the people are of rural America. And I I think that if you give this a second watch, you could definitely grasp that, even if you might not on the first one. So I appreciate his version of it. Bryan Loomis: Yeah, absolutely. Well, I'm gonna make a claim, Felicia, and I wanna see how you'll respond to Felicia Maroni: Okay. Bryan Loomis: it. So I think if you were to watch one film to try to understand what New German cinema was, it might need to be this one. And I think Felicia Maroni: Okay. Bryan Loomis: the the reason why is Because it incorporates so many of the things that make new German cinema what it does. If you talk about the big three directors, obviously this is directed by Herzog, so it has his stamps all over it. Like you said, it incorporates some of what Vendors is doing as well in terms of the road movie, their traveling, there's time spent in cars. Also, it really feels at times like a fastbender film with the like the pimps, especially while they're in Felicia Maroni: Yeah. Bryan Loomis: Germany and the way they talk and are introduced as characters is like this is just like pure fastbender that then that Herzog is doing right now. And so I think you get a little bit of a taste of all three of their styles in this film. Felicia Maroni: Mm-hmm. Bryan Loomis: You also have the folding in of non professional actors, the obsession with America, a lot of other stuff that we're gonna talk about that is themes in New German cinema. So I think you you can't do much better than this to understand what the movement is. Felicia Maroni: That's you know what, I I do agree with a lot of what you said. 'cause I Bryan Loomis: Mm. Felicia Maroni: I hadn't even thought thought about it. Actually no, I had thought about what what would be the one film that I would recommend to people as being like where you should Bryan Loomis: Mm. Felicia Maroni: start within this movement because realistically you depending on who you are, if you're a hardcore person, maybe yes, start at the beginning. But realistically you Bryan Loomis: Mm-hmm. Felicia Maroni: gotta there has to be an entryway and it has to be from the one of the big three. I do think for me it would be between Herzog and Fastbender. I think Vendors is still very much within that movement. But I think he's even more outside of it than Herzog is, in my my Bryan Loomis: Mm-hmm. Felicia Maroni: opinion. I I think that he's making stuff that's a lot more I don't know, he's just making his own style. A filmmaking. Bryan Loomis: Yeah. Felicia Maroni: I My mind does go to Fastbender though as the the archetypal one and Bryan Loomis: What film would you pick from Fastbender to be like the yeah. Felicia Maroni: There is one that we're gonna cover that I thought of immediately, but then I was like that that one's later than this Bryan Loomis: Yeah. Felicia Maroni: one. But then I was thinking I actually think that I would say Ally Furious Soul would be Bryan Loomis: Mm. Felicia Maroni: probably the one I would say encompasses visually, thematically, what a new German cinema is to me. So it's f for me a battle Bryan Loomis: Mm. Felicia Maroni: between that And this one because your arguments were very valid and I I was like, you know what, you're because at first when you said it I was like, Mm, I don't know about that. But I was like, you know what? he's not wrong. it would be a battle between I would say because I'm that person I can't pick and I would be like, Well, you just have to double bill them. Just watch them both. You gotta watch both of them. Bryan Loomis: You gotta watch both of Yeah, those those are probably I'd have to think about it a little bit more, but those are probably my two favorite films from the movement, I would say. And may might be yours as well. I don't know. But do you have other Felicia Maroni: They move in. Mm-hmm. I I mean, yeah. Bryan Loomis: fast spenders that are you like better than Ali Furies the Soul? I mean, there are so many good ones. Yeah. Felicia Maroni: I mean my favorite is Martha, for sure. Which is Bryan Loomis: Martha. love Martha. Yeah. Felicia Maroni: and bitter tears of Petra Von Khan. There's there's very few Fastbender that I don't like. I can't think of any that I dislike. There's just more that some that I like more than others. So I'm excited to finally eventually we will get to Fastbender. I know we've teased him a lot in the in the the series, but we will get to him. you can't have a series about this this movement without. But Hertzog, this is a hundred percent hands down my favorite. Herzog. I would say Bryan Loomis: Mm. Felicia Maroni: Casperhauser would be a very close second. So on the Bruno S train. Yeah. At least for the narrative the the features. Yeah. Can't go wrong. Bryan Loomis: Yeah. I think we're in alignment on that. Yeah. So those are the good stuff. Yeah. Yeah, for me on the Hertzog, the the Bruno performances here and being a little bit more around the exploitation and victimization rather than the delusions of grandeur side of thing with Kinski, I respond more to these two movies as true like truly what I'd be looking for in Herzog versus I know a lot of people have a lot of affection for those Aguirre, Nosferatu, Fitzcaraldo as probably like his three most well known films, but Felicia Maroni: Mm-hmm. Bryan Loomis: I think I had seen all of those first and then saw this film and was like, Wow, I didn't know that this was in, you know, Herzogs. I'd sort of decided, Herzog is sort of like less of a favorite of mine than say Fastbender before I got to this and was Felicia Maroni: Mm. Bryan Loomis: like, I didn't know that like this was also a mode that Herzog could go to and really, really respond to these films in particular and what they're doing. Felicia Maroni: Absolutely. I felt the same way 'cause I really love his documentaries and I felt bad that I like those other three films, but I didn't love them. I was like, maybe I just don't like his narrative Bryan Loomis: Mm. Felicia Maroni: work and then I saw this I was like, wait a minute. This Bryan Loomis: Yeah. Felicia Maroni: is this is the avenue that I like. So Bryan Loomis: This is this is the good stuff. You heard it here first of of Herzog's catalog. Felicia Maroni: Yeah. Bryan Loomis: So Okay, let's talk a little bit about how this fits into New German cinema as a whole. We've talked a little bit about how this film deals with America, but how do you feel like the the movement as a whole? Like there are many films and we've covered Alice in the Cities already, but there are many films that deal with America, the influence of American culture on Germany. Why do you think it's such an obsession for the movement? Felicia Maroni: The way I read it is they are working within a time where they're seeing in the rise of independent filmmaking in America and what can be done over there. I think that especially w the the stuff that's coming out in the later sixties, and the seventies with that new Hollywood work, you know, the the Dennis Hopper and so on. they're seeing that these styles of story making i is different from the Hollywood style of storytelling and filmmaking and that you can just go out and make your own film and make something that's unique and you know, highlight real human beings. And that seems to be something that these directors were interested in talking about real human beings within their own culture and what was happening in Germany. at the time post war and post those high mat films that were just trying to not really acknowledge what had happened in Germany and throughout Europe and they were talking about how this is a burden that these people carry even though they were small children or not even alive at that point when it was happening. But the burden that they carry just living as products of that. And to me, I think I see the parallels between those American filmmakers and what they're doing in New German cinema. Now there are some directors that were obviously very inspired by what the French were doing, we've talked about that. And that's different styles of filmmaking. But I think the big three especially and there are other directors, as you said, throughout the movement who have tackled America, but the big three I think it's a mix between a fascination of what you can do within the American film system and also that there's just more eyes on your film if you bring things to America. Realistically, if you get to the point where you can make a film in America, even if it's just like this one, the half of it in America, but what most people think of when they think of this film is his time in there, then you've kind of made it at that point. sometimes some directors end up going back to Germany. we talked about this with Schlorendorf. I know how to part time in America and end up going back to Germany making German films. But then there's other directors like Venders and Herzog that they go on to continue making American films because they are names. So there is at the end of the day wanting to Make money but also just make films without a struggle of just being within the German market. So that's how I view it, 'cause at the end of the day you have to make money. We live in a capitalist system. So I I wanna say it's all artistry, but there is that that mix between the two. I don't know if you you see it that way too. Bryan Loomis: I do, yeah. The new Hollywood thing is really interesting to me because the dates line up almost exactly for when the movements start and end, and I'd say there's even a bit of a parallel in how they end with a lot of these like big fashions. Big films and big productions sort of bombing with Fitzcaraldo on the new German cinema side and then you've got like Heaven's Gate on the new Hollywood side Felicia Maroni: Mm-hmm. Bryan Loomis: and that signals a change in what's doing right around the same time, beginning of the eighties. So you do have a lot of parallels there and French New Wave, a lot of the films or most prominent films are being made before So it is a bit more of like a precursor or inspiration to the movement than something that would be something you'd respond to back and forth a lot. So the movements happening at the same time, like these directors are seeing new Hollywood films. You know, vendors is seeing Paper Moon and saying, no, I can't make the same movie that's just been made. I have to find a new spin on it in Alice and the Cities. So they're yeah, I think it is that is a big part of it. I think also a a big part of it is just the history of West Germany being, you know, American occupied right after the war and A lot of the economic miracle is rooted in this capitalistic system of you know democracy and capitalism that's been ported over from America. And so West German culture can't entirely be separated at this point from American culture and the film culture in particular. So many of the American films are the ones that are being most widely seen in West Germany. So I think those cultures are more intertwined and can't really be separated in a clear way like we'd want them to be, just see because we tend to think of films as from a single country and reflective of that country's values and ways of life. But it's a lot more complicated than that, I'd say. Felicia Maroni: Yeah. Very much. So I think I I do l I like that you said that the you know, they're kind of being influenced by one another, probably r outwardly less so Americans being influenced by Germans. But I I'm sure they are they were, I should say, but they probably were less vocal about it. Bryan Loomis: Yeah. well you have a quote here from Ed Lockman on how he shot the American section of this film. You wanna w walk us through what he said, the cinematographer for this film? Felicia Maroni: Yeah. It's interesting 'cause he's not really credited at all, as the cinematographer for this. It's really Bryan Loomis: Mm. Felicia Maroni: only Thomas Mock who is credited. And I wonder it this is still very early in Lockman's career. so maybe they struck a deal where the other one would just get s credit. I don't know why that would be the case, but Lockman, if you might not know him by name, you've definitely I had to see him seen a lot a lot of his work. He's most known for working with Todd Haynes, but he shot a lot of fantastic films prior to that. He shot David Burns True Stories, Desperately Seeking Susan, Mississippi Masala, which is fantastic, Light Sleeper, Virgin Suicides, and then goes on to make like essentially almost every Todd Haynes film they've worked together on. So if you like that look. but he talks about how they worked together on the the American parts of th this film. And he says, it was shot like a documentary. Verner was primarily interested in getting a certain kind of performance from Bruno S. Although Bruno had lines, they were more or less improvised. And there were many non actors and many times we didn't have locations marked down. We would put the actors into situations that everyone experienced for the first time. So I think we kinda talked about this earlier where there's a mix of kind of improvisation alongside like obviously they went there with a sort of plan to film scene but allowed the environment and maybe the situation of the day to influence how the scene would go and that the documentary part of it I don't think I I caught that on the first watch, to be honest. I just thought there's a specific way that Herzog shoots that I just felt in line with And I think I'm just so used to watching Hertzog documentaries that it just didn't seem off but it being laid out that way, I was like it makes sense that he specifically went into the American parts of the film. Because I think that the way the two are shot, two parts of it, are quite different. I don't think it's there's a hard transition. I don't think it's it I think it's very smooth, but it feels very much like he's observing America as opposed to the German parts feels like okay, this is very lived in. As you said, a lot of it was shot at Bruno's actual flat. But American parts feel like an observation so the documentary aspect is is very interesting to me, without it feeling like it's a docudrama, 'cause it very much doesn't feel like that at all. So it's interesting that his mindset going into that part. Of the film. Bryan Loomis: Yeah, I think I can see that and how how they worked. It almost does to tie it back to the American independent movement would be roughly analogous to what Casavades is doing with a lot of that improvised dialogue and giving more scenarios and then just letting it play out with the actors. So another parallel would be the treatment of sex work in New German cinema is something that's returned to particularly in Fastbender quite a bit. Felicia Maroni: Mm-hmm. Bryan Loomis: so that that's another theme that is carried over here and I think dealt with in a similar way to the way that Fastbender deals with sex work in his films. And along with that, just the theme of exploitation. Do you wanna talk a little bit about how how exploitation is handled in this film? But that's all over New German cinema. Felicia Maroni: Yes, very much. I think just how the systems that we are working within exploit the the everyday person and and Herzog and Fastbender very much discuss this alongside on many most of the the New German cinema directors that we have already discussed and will go on to discuss about how just the system exploits human beings and how you end up having to exploit yourself for money. It might be more outward, like something like sex works, bor it's just like exploiting yourself for a situation where you're like, I don't wanna have to do this, but I have to in order to retain my home. I have to do this in order to make any sort of money. I'm sure everyone feels that way in some in some form or another. But how he those both of those characters, you know, Ava and Bruno feel exploited by being considered, you know, lower class in Germany, so they go to America to see if they can find a better life and they get exploited there too because i it doesn't matter that you're an outsider or if you're from there. That's just how the system works within the world. If you don't have money, it's going to be difficult for you. and just the excessive nature of living in North America in general. I know I think a lot of people view it as this is where you go to create a better life for you and there are many people who have but it's difficult. Bryan Loomis: There's also a tendency in both Herzog's and new German cinema films to focus on characters who have maybe questionable motivations or would be thought of as being in a morally gray area. They're not entirely good, not entirely bad. How do you think that plays out in this film and in the movement in general? Felicia Maroni: I I've always very interested in kind of the anti hero, someone who is not outwardly, you know, the you know, magical hero of a film, someone who in everyday life would go probably unnoticed and would typically not be the subject of an entire film. Those are I what find to me be the most interesting styles of filmmaking and I see that a lot in this movement. Herzog very much loves an antihero and sometimes they're darker than others. I think that Bruno has his issues, but I don't think he's even remotely a bad person at all. I think he has dealt been dealt a really bad hand in life and is put into bad situations. But Herzog it does not shy away from characters who s sometimes do some very bad things or are just not great in in general. We s we ta see this in Agire where he's not an antihero, he's just straight up villain. But we see that Bryan Loomis: Yeah. Felicia Maroni: in other, you know, Kinski specifically Herzog films where yeah. Bryan Loomis: Fitzcaraldo maybe you'd feel like is pretty exploitative, but also has a dream Felicia Maroni: Yes. Bryan Loomis: that you almost identify with of like that is sorta cool that you wanna Felicia Maroni: I know, you're like mm-hmm. Bryan Loomis: do, you know, you have this artistic vision for stuff. So maybe a little more Felicia Maroni: Yeah. Bryan Loomis: morally gray than certainly a Giry would be. Felicia Maroni: Yeah. Yeah. He is not morally grey. He's just morally black. just Bryan Loomis: Yeah. Felicia Maroni: dark and but his fascination with it feels so in line with who he is as a storyteller because I can't imagine him making something where everything is just, you know, binary. These are the good guys, these are the bad guys. I think even something in a Gire we're seeing the balances between the the relationships of those characters and here also where when his home is getting repossessed, it's like you wanna be mad at that person, but they're just doing their job and you know, the bills aren't getting paid. So what can you do there? So I think the balance here is very interesting and so in line with the movement. And again, as we've said I know he thinks he's an outlier, but he's definitely less of an outlier than he thinks. I think he is tackling real human emotion and w how people were feeling in post war conditions and that includes in America and post war conditions there. So, it feels very much to me like the kind of the pinnacle of the the movement and having those anti heroes as the the leads. Sometimes people are more heroic in their film. But I can't think of any that are just like very sweet and fantastic. It depends on the film, but I think this is more in line with how most people were creating films. Bryan Loomis: Yeah. Felicia Maroni: even we talked briefly about Eva Mattis who plays Ava in this and her other very, very big film, Germany Pale Mother that's very much also along the lines of what we're talking about here, without giving too much away. But yeah, I I love the the interest in the antihero within this movement. That's I think what attracted me to it. Bryan Loomis: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It feels very observational to me of just we're going to represent people how they actually are, because in real life, people Felicia Maroni: Uh-huh. Bryan Loomis: aren't like entirely good or entirely bad. That's a construct that we make for the sake of telling stories or making movies to help audiences identify with certain people or antagonize certain other people. And Getting rid of that construct is a big part of what makes the movement special of just let let's represent life as it is rather than this heightened sort of storytelling version of life that we use often as shorthand in movies to help the audience be entertained and have a good time, but going back to the purpose of New German cinema being more about artistry than about entertainment or building an audience or making money, it makes sense that this is sort of what they were drawn towards. Okay, we'll talk again about Herzog's filmography a little bit and what other films are worth watching. We covered that in our episode on Agire the Wrath of God already. So that might be a a broader highlight of some of the stuff that would be worth checking out. Maybe we can just pick a couple to highlight in light of StroSek here. What do you got, Felicia? Felicia Maroni: I mean, a lot of the stuff that we've already mentioned, like you you really have to watch their first collaboration, The Enigma of Casper Hauser. And I really think that you should kind of I don't know, pair his seventies stuff all together and watch those. before you dive into the Fitzgeraldo posta and his more American career, I think his German stuff is what's most fascinating to me in terms of his narrative features. But then I think with the documentary esque in elements to this film, you really would benefit from watching the way he actually makes a a a documentary. And th there's so many docs that he's well known for. Like I think there's a lot of people who've probably only seen his documentaries, especially something like a Grizzly Man, which I think is probably I don't know, would I is people consider that his most famous? That Lessons of Darkness probably. I Grizzly Man's the first one. Yes. Encounters at the end of the Bryan Loomis: I think so. Yeah. And Cave of Forgotten Dreams, yeah, those Felicia Maroni: world also would be a big one. Grizzly Man's the first one I ever saw of his and I'm never not gonna tell people to watch that movie. I I think you just have to watch it. so Bryan Loomis: Yeah. Felicia Maroni: I would pair those. Go into a stocks, for Bryan Loomis: Yeah. Felicia Maroni: sure. Bryan Loomis: I saw one additional documentary since we talked about Aguirre. I watched Feta Morgana, which is nineteen seventy-one, Felicia Maroni: yeah. Bryan Loomis: so a very early one, even before Aguire. And it's most like Lessons of Darkness, I'd say, but I like it more than Lessons of Darkness. I think Lessons of Darkness to me is kinda like I'm not willing to go that far on the premise of like, what if you were an alien and came across these landscapes and like, okay, herd song, settle down a little bit. This is this is a bit much. But Fate of Morgana is somewhat similar in that it's mostly landscapes, beautiful desert landscapes. There's like this plane crash that's really prominent, lots of dead animal bones and guts. It's sort of hard to watch for that reason of just like Felicia Maroni: Mm. Bryan Loomis: Like, here are all these animals that have been killed by other animals, and it's been six months. So that's sort of like that's sort gross, but really interesting portrayal of the desert, and it is accompanied with narration about Mayan creation theory and like the interplay between the narration and the images that don't always relate directly, but there is this poetic resonance between them So I would recommend that one. I thought it was really excellent and was glad to have checked it out. Felicia Maroni: That one's been on my list, so I'm going I'm very excited about your recommendation on this one 'cause it sounds Bryan Loomis: Yes. Felicia Maroni: really good. Cool. Bryan Loomis: Definitely worth watching. Shall we get into double our double features? So something that is not from the new German cinema movement, but nonetheless pairs well with Strosek. What do you have for us, Felicia? Felicia Maroni: I went with the theme of going to a different place to try and form a better life for yourself. Now there's a million movies like this, but because as I mentioned, I'm a little jealous that Canadians don't get the the beauty of having outsiders come in and see their own culture portrayed. This is this is a Canadian film by Can Canadian director though. It's called Going Down the Road and it's less going to another country, but it's very small town living people who are traveling through Canada to make it to Toronto because Toronto then and probably still is considered like the pinnacle of where you try and end up in Canada to make it if you don't want to go to the States and how Toronto alongside many films that we've seen, like American films, people going to New York or LA to try and make it, and it wears you down. You're like, well, this is not working out for me. It's very interesting to see Canada portrayed that way. It's considered among many as one of the greatest Canadian films, that probably most Canadians have not seen unless you actually make a point of watching Canadian cinema but if you read any lists it's always near the top and I always find it very fascinating to see how people thought of Toronto then and how it's very much not different of how people think of Toronto now. They get here and they're like, Yeah, I have to go back home. It's too expensive. and it's gotten worse. So I think the parallels between the two very different But also not dissimilar, thematically where we're getting people realizing maybe this wasn't for me. Definitely does not have the dark ending and there are no dancing chickens, unfortunately. Bryan Loomis: Heh heh he well Felicia Maroni: But that would be my wreck. Bryan Loomis: wonderful. I am always you know, you'd be my first call on going for, you know, new Canadian films. What should I check out? So I'll have to watch that one. I have not seen it yet. So but Felicia Maroni: It's good. Bryan Loomis: yeah, very neat. I chose close up, the Abas Kiarasami film from nineteen ninety as a pair for this. That one is even more of a documentary hybrid, maybe even primarily documentary with some fictional elements in terms of like reenactments mixed into it. But I thought of this in particular in regards to the relationship between the director and the central figure or main actor of Hussain in Close Up is essentially a arrested for impersonating a well-known director who Kiarasami is friends with, and Kiara Sami decides to make a film out of this occurrence and reenacting it with him and the family who he fooled into thinking they were gonna be a part of a a movie from this well-known film. filmmaker and they have different perceptions of these scenes that they're reenacting fictionally. So it's this really interesting contact contrast there. But yeah, I think that relationship and particularly the way that Hussein and Kiara Sami talked about each other in the coming decades is sort of similar to the way that Bruno and Herzog talked about each other in the coming decades and coming from different places of bringing in an outsider to filmmaking and highlighting them and what what can that bring to a film, I definitely thought of close up as a comp for this. So that's my double feature today. Felicia Maroni: Yeah. That's honestly that's fantastic and I hadn't even thought about the parallels of the two directors bringing in someone that they're just fascinated by who is like a non actor. So good choice. Bryan Loomis: Mm-hmm. Thanks. occurred to me as I was doing the research of this situation is sort of like that situation. So Felicia Maroni: Ha ha. Bryan Loomis: added it on here. So well Felicia, where can people find the podcast? Felicia Maroni: Well, we do have a lovely website that is called Cinemafield Guide dot com. Very easy, very accessible for you to find. But we're also wherever you listen or watch your podcasts, so obviously Spotify, Apple Podcasts, YouTube would be the big ones. We are also on Instagram where you can watch clips from said episode that is out and find out what we're gonna be talking about in the following weeks. We're on Twitter, on Blue Sky, Instagram would be probably where we're gonna see most of the action, but we'll see how the other two platforms go. But we also have an email, cinema feel guide at gmail Bryan Loomis: Mm-hmm. Felicia Maroni: dot com. Send us an email if you like the show. If you don't like the show, refrain from sending us an email. I don't wanna know. Bryan Loomis: Yeah. Send somebody else an email about that if you don't like it. Yeah. Felicia Maroni: Yeah. Exactly. Bryan Loomis: well yeah. That's wonderful. I think that about wraps it up for today. This has been Cinema Field Guide.