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Adam Hogan: I welcome back Dr. Hogan, the all in, all on X pod. This is going to be something exciting because we're over 30 episodes deep and I haven't had anybody of your stature. and your great notoriety on the show yet. So let me tell everybody about you. You Sarah Hayes-Brook. Gosh, you have seen dentistry from every perspective. Okay, we've got corporate dentistry, private dentistry, surgical assisting, lead assistant, office operations, treatment presentation, financial arrangements, team training, implant company, clinical education, KOL relationships, product development training. I mean, you have sat everywhere in dentistry and implants and surgery and all on four, everywhere except in the doctor's pants. I mean, right?

Sarah Haezebrouck: Correct. That's right.

Adam Hogan: So you are now, by the way, the most qualified person to ever sit in the All In All On X podcast. How does that feel?

Sarah Haezebrouck: It's flattering because I see everyone that's always on your shows. And I'm like, man, Athena and Dr. Gonzalez and Dr. Wynn and all these people. And I'm like, that's just me. Like I still think of me as just, I started as an assistant, right? But I always had a drive and a hunger. So it's very ⁓ flattering to be asked to be on the show.

Adam Hogan: Yeah, well, mean, to me, it's a no brainer. I wish I had thought about it sooner. It's like the vendors in the back of the room. People are like, well, she was an oral surgery assistant who now works for SIN360. And I think when people look at the auxiliaries or the vendors, I don't know if you will, they kind of gloss over sometimes. And I don't, I always go right to the vendor hall because these are some of the experts in the room that really can help you the most. So I think this is tremendous to have you on here. You've probably watched more implant surgeries than most dentists will probably do in a lifetime. Maybe fair to say?

Sarah Haezebrouck: I've seen more than I can count, for sure.

Adam Hogan: And take me down, so I know you worked with Vish, Vish Dab. And so for those listening, for Sarah, if that resume didn't impress you, I mean working for Dr. Bruan, Vishy, and many others, you've been in Heartland for a while, You're Heartland Dentistry or in other private practices. So you have a great perspective on surgery and dentistry in general. Tell me, if I put you in a room with a new doctor, ⁓ Can you tell in less than five minutes how much they're going to struggle or succeed?

Sarah Haezebrouck: usually within probably five minutes or less, ⁓ for sure. Even sometimes in the first conversations of preparing to be there on a surgery, I can pretty much figure out how the surgery is gonna go. And sometimes it's surprising, you know, but you can never prepare and especially the first surgery, it's like anything else a doctor is gonna do for the first time, right? ⁓ It's nerve wracking and you want everything to go well and you have your assistants there and you have maybe the reps there.

Adam Hogan: Thank .

Sarah Haezebrouck: Maybe if you're trying XNAB, so you have all these people in the room. So it's definitely very, can be very nerve wracking. I would assume just like I was an assistant for 25 years, but every time I assisted with a new doctor, it was the same thing. I knew every procedure, but stepping in with a new doctor was always just a little bit different.

Adam Hogan: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right, take me, so doctors out there in the audience, listen up, okay, because this is gonna be some free consulting advice and a really great perspective from the outside in. So you've got your assistant lens on, which I hate that word assistant by the way, but you're dental professional. I wish there was a better name for it, but you've got your surgical technician scrub nurse lens on, and ⁓ what tips you off about a good experience and a bad experience or a doctor who's going to have an easier road than say one who's going to struggle.

Sarah Haezebrouck: ⁓ I think usually just looking at the setup and the doctor assistant interaction, because the assistant is such, they're a right hand person, right? There are second set of eyes a lot of times. So it's so important to trust between. So when I see a strong assistant in the room, especially a surgical assistant, I know it's going to be successful because I can see them as a leader. and they can kind of guide the doctor. Yes, they can't tell them the surgery because that's what the doctor is the best at, but we know the pieces and the parts. So if we know the pieces and the parts and everything that's on the tray, we can understand what comes next and we can easily guide them. If I see someone that has no idea what's going on, because they don't learn that in school, right? I had a dental assisting school. That's not something that the states make them teach. They teach old stuff.

Adam Hogan: Hmm. Mm-hmm.

Sarah Haezebrouck: ⁓ so if they don't have any experience, I know it's going to be more of a struggle for the doctor because they don't have, it's like they're teaching that person and they're learning whatever the system is at the same time. So if I walk in, the team looks strong and they know, and we start going over the kit and stuff and they're on it. I know it's going to be way easier than someone that has no idea. You know, you ask somebody, where's the driver? And they're like, what's, what's the driver? They don't, they don't know. So you're like, okay, this is going to be tough.

Adam Hogan: you Right, mean, because it takes a team. mean, a doctor cannot be great all by themselves. I'll tell you, and it's infuriating. mean, speaking from experience, when I'm working with a new assistant or somebody that just hasn't quite gotten it yet, or I know I might have to replace them or train them better, it's a struggle. That procedure is definitely a struggle. mean, I think that we... ⁓ rise to our team and we fall to our team. There's a saying in that, I believe, right? Yeah.

Sarah Haezebrouck: Yeah, that's true. ⁓ It really does. It takes a really good team and everyone has to start somewhere. So obviously you're not always going to get just someone that knows everything. But when doctors pour into their team or their team pours into each other, ⁓ you can see the difference in a team for sure.

Adam Hogan: Yeah, you've told me some stories and you've never, you've always maintained confidentiality with where you've been and who you've been talking to. But you've told me stories of surgeries that go 12 hours or more and ⁓ stories of surgeries that are very efficient and maybe too expedient. ⁓ You know, take me down that. What's that like to sit and watch a team of ⁓ doctors, surgeons, and assistants work for, technicians work for 12 or 16 hours on somebody?

Sarah Haezebrouck: It is exhausting. I have been in surgeries till one in the morning, two in the morning. ⁓ it's just absolutely exhausting. And you wonder what the struggle is. A lot of times it's lack of training, obviously, like they've done it once, but they don't have a team of mentors. They did a, you know, a model course, maybe one cadaver, but if they don't have mentors or someone they can lean on, It makes a huge difference. They're stuck and we can only lead so much right from the side. ⁓ A good lab is also super important. Good records because all of that adds in. We don't have good records. The end waiting, even waiting three, four hours for a temporary, just a file to print. It's exhausting. The team is exhausted. There's no breaks. The doctor's got to be exhausted, right? ⁓ So it's definitely, I've been in more than I've wanted to be.

Adam Hogan: Right.

Sarah Haezebrouck: ⁓ And, you know.

Adam Hogan: I get it. It's tough. Well, so you go out and you train. And I know right now you train sort of under the auspices of working for a major implant company, All in Four World, SIN360, which I'm affiliated with as well. I make no secret about that. So you're going into offices and training them how to use digital workflow and do surgical workflow as well. Is that right?

Sarah Haezebrouck: Yep, so everything from the records, why they're important, even as far as taking pictures, not sitting them in a tray, having them standing up, not leaning on a wall. ⁓ Some doctors have the assistants take it, they don't understand camp, they don't understand how they line things up in Exocad. So why I don't teach Exocad, I took it to understand the importance of the records. And that will cut out so much time, as you know, having proper records, pre-op records. That's the difference between 30 minutes and hours waiting on a file, right? But it's, I've been EFDA through Danby for 25 plus years. So it's very different to have me go into an office where I can actually work on the patient. So it's funny going in sometimes I'm like, I got it doc. And they look at me I'm like, no, it's okay. You know, I'm not just a rep or a business partnership development person. I'm actually hands-on and very clinical.

Adam Hogan: you

Sarah Haezebrouck: I still work on weekends with several doctors and oral surgeons in Florida, just like I did with Vishy. I was working full time and I would drive to work with him because the experience and staying in it. So it's very relevant. But yeah, can start from airway controlled all the way through to staining and glazing, which it's not the regular that you get when you have a rep in to help you out.

Adam Hogan: This is what I was talking about when I started out with your resume. mean, you don't meet too many ⁓ anybody in the dental profession, let alone, you know, the little trivial menial assistant word, you know, you don't meet anybody that does everything from photography and record taking to staining and glazing and porcelain, not to mention such a strong background with surgery. Right. So something I really respect. When you come to our courses, I always tell people get in the back of the room and talk to those people sitting back there. Tremendous amount of respect and admiration for what you do. How I mean, so you you go out and you do two, three day programs of training. Right. Is that right? And, know, why don't we just from the end, you know, we're going to ask you, how do we get in touch with you? How do people sign up to work with you? know, phone number, email you want to tell everybody?

Sarah Haezebrouck: Yep, two days, yep. Yeah, so my Instagram is smiles underscore with Sarah. And if you look up si n 360, you'll find me they know how to contact me. And then my number is 689-222-5440. And I like to do two full days. I like you to have a surgical patient there. So we can do everything start to finish, make the workflow work in their office. We're not trying to reinvent their office. We're trying to make it seamless, predictable and repeatable, right? We want everyone to learn it. because we all know there's one assistant that usually is super strong and then if she gets pregnant or has to go away for something, we don't know what to do and that's the worst thing. So I like everyone to be hands-on. I like everyone to learn it. ⁓ Some stage two and then a surgery patient start to finish for sure. I usually cover the design fee while I'm there as well and we offer nine CEs when I'm out there.

Adam Hogan: Yeah, that's great. I'm glad we put the ⁓ horse right up front, the cart out of the horse right now. So people listening know that you're available to do training. Because training's so important. And you talked about earlier offices. You can tell when offices have only been to one course, or one cadaver course. So I always recommend people don't just come to our courses, that they go and see other doctors' courses. How many courses is enough? Or is that a trick question? I don't know.

Sarah Haezebrouck: Trick question for me, I don't feel like there's ever enough education. Like I never stopped learning and I still never stop. Like, Si will tell you whenever there's a course, I'm like, pick me, pick me, let me go. Because you always learn something, right? Like I've been through your courses, this is the second year where I've gone and sat with your courses and I still learn something every time. You know, I could have been to, you know, the bootcamp. I will learn something again. I've seen Athena speak how many times? I'll learn something every time I hear from her. But I think more importantly, which is one thing that I know you do that's a little bit different is a mentorship. Having a group of people that you can chat with or talk to. So that to me is something that's not like a lot of the other groups I see. And that is super important because things happen when you're not in the class, right? They happen when you have a surgery or you feel like you can't get a hold of someone. If you have a group of people that are doing this and they want you to succeed. it's completely different than going to a course and then not knowing who to call.

Adam Hogan: Oh yeah, yeah, I certainly get text messages every single day from somebody who needs a little help treatment planning or they're in a little, they think they're in a little bit of trouble or something didn't go right and what do I do now? So that's I think more important than learning it the right way and when everything goes right, everything's going easy, but who do you have to lean on when something goes wrong? And you know, what kind of advice can you get? So, you know, I appreciate that for sure. So what do assistants, what do dentists, what is it that, how do I want to ask this question? What is it that dentists don't see that seems, and surgeons as well, dentists, surgeons, specialists, periodontal surgeon, what is it that they don't see that you see so very clearly after all these years of experience?

Sarah Haezebrouck: you mean like from a patient standpoint or.

Adam Hogan: Well, let's start with the patient, because I was kind of on my list of things to talk about. The patient's perspective, everything that you know about surgery, what is it that the patients don't see that they probably should or that they need to be more aware of?

Sarah Haezebrouck: Okay. Well, one thing I think that a lot of dentists don't ever do is ask the patient straight, like, give them a mirror, have them look in the mirror and ask them, what do they like and what don't they like about their smile? I don't feel like enough dentists do that. And this goes all the way back, not just full arch, but from the beginning, ⁓ patients know what they want. And if you don't give them what they want, they're not going to do what they need. So if they come in and tell you, hate this black filling, right? Cause they always say amalgam is a black filling and you look at other stuff, but you don't really address the black filling. They're not scheduling. However, if you tell them, okay, let's, you know, they need a root canal. Like let's say they have an ongoing infection, but if you fill the cavity first or take out the amalgam and replace it, they're more apt to do what they really need because you listen to them and you took care of what they wanted. So I feel like that gets missed a lot. ⁓ I think the other thing that is an issue in seeing things is I feel like a lot of assistants or even hygiene, they're afraid to speak to the doctor about something or ask how they could be better or what they could do better to grow. And I think doctors respect that. know, like nothing is ever gonna be perfect. We can all learn from each other. But I feel like the communication

Adam Hogan: Mm-hmm.

Sarah Haezebrouck: with the team if an assistant or whoever upfront can go up and be like, listen, this is what happened today. How do we make this better? So it doesn't happen again. I don't think there's enough of those conversations. And I think if there was everyone would respect each other a lot more, not that there's disrespect, but I think they earn more respect and just simple human things like apologizing. Hey, that was my fault. I forgot to collect the deposit. didn't double check that.

Adam Hogan: Mm. you Mm-hmm.

Sarah Haezebrouck: whatever, right? ⁓ And I think if that happened on both sides, it would be a lot more successful too.

Adam Hogan: Right. What I heard, yeah, I agree. What I heard with not listening to patients also seemed to resonate with not listening to your staff. Not being approachable or humble. Is that kind of the stream, the avenue that you were taking there?

Sarah Haezebrouck: Ha Yeah, and I think it's not always just the doctor not being approachable. I feel like us as dental professionals, we need to be more confident because I think doctors are open to that. Like at one point I had to have that, you know, crucial conversation, right? And I was terrified. And from that point on, like the doctor, just felt like opened up and the wall came down that probably was in my head that wasn't really there. ⁓ But our work became so much easier and then they would come to me more often. you know, as a leader and saying, you know, what do you think about this? I think it just opened up something totally different. So I feel like why dentists may or surgeons may seem like they have a wall. I don't really think they do. And I think staff also needs to realize, Hey, they, they need you. Like we need each other, right? We can't work alone. So have those conversations. It's okay. And I think the respect would be so much easier and so much better or it would feel.

Adam Hogan: Yeah. Yeah, I agree. You know, I'm always trying to encourage open communication in my office. Now, you sometimes there are some parameters. mean, for example, if I'm in the surgery room and it's a surgery team all there, it's like I have this rule that anybody can say anything at any time you can. You know, it's like being in the Marine Corps where, you know, you're on the firing range and it's like anybody can call a ceasefire. Anybody can call an unsafe situation. And we have that in the surgery room. If you think of something, stop everybody. I don't know, maybe it's like, the throat pack in? You don't have to wait to ask. mean, that's the first thing you do when you get somebody intubated and you're ready is throat packs. And it's OK for my team to say, Doc, were there throat packs? Even if I yelled throat packs and someone else responded throat packs and they wrote it on the board, if two minutes later someone's unsure, say, hey, are there throat packs? Nobody will ever get chastised or shamed for that.

Sarah Haezebrouck: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Adam Hogan: But there might be little parameters or rules like, well, if we're having a patient look at their teeth, we're not all five people gonna blurt out what we think are wrong about them out in the open. You could say, doc, can I talk to you for a second? We can go in the back, but you can have that dialogue and you can't be afraid to have that dialogue. think that's perfectly fine.

Sarah Haezebrouck: Right. Yeah, or simply saying like, if you see something, Hey doc, check number three, lingual. The patient has no idea what you're talking about. Doc can see it easy, right? ⁓ but there's definitely a way to communicate it for sure.

Adam Hogan: Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Well, have you ever been in a situation where you saw a surgeon making like making a mistake right now and had to intervene or, and how'd you handle that? If that happened.

Sarah Haezebrouck: So I've had to do that and that's basically what I did. Check number three lingual. They keep going, check number 29 lingual. They keep going, check number 29 lingual. Just repeating the same thing until they look and then I see them look. So, hey, stop, wait, no, right? You don't wanna ever have these trigger words that the patient is gonna be like, especially if they're awake, if they're intubated, it's different. ⁓

Adam Hogan: Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah Haezebrouck: Yeah, you have to be tactful about saying it and you have to make sure you know what you're talking about. Like is that really or you know, if it's something that's not dire, then you can ask them, Hey doc, saw that you stopped or you remove this. Why, why did you do that? So I can understand. So you never want to question them, but it's always like, make me understand this. So I know what to do next time.

Adam Hogan: Yeah. Are you able to ⁓ have you ever had to tactfully do that in a surgical situation? You know, in oral surgery and any any respect, I when you're training, have you ever had to worry about stepping in?

Sarah Haezebrouck: I think only one time when I saw like the lingual plate was like starting to break. ⁓ but all I did was take, ⁓ I don't know what I had. I might've had a mirror because the assistant was in there and I put it up against it and the doctor's looked at me and I'm like, just check the lingual wall because I could see it starting to break in the tissue. ⁓ but that's really it. I've never had anything major happen. Usually they're very cautious, especially when we're training, right? They're a little bit more cautious than. regular. So sometimes I want to. It's OK. You can. We're good. Go to the next. ⁓

Adam Hogan: I think that sounds very tactful actually. You know, just kind of take an instrument and you point at what the problem is about to be and you're like, mm-mm, mm-mm, you know.

Sarah Haezebrouck: Yeah. Yeah. Cause you don't want to call them out, right? They can't see. And especially depending if they're a right-handed or left-handed doctor, always tell the assistant, you are the second set of eyes. You can see coming from the left side way better than the doctor. So it's our job to look for them.

Adam Hogan: Yeah. Yeah, well, I've got no shame in saying, especially in a deep sedation case where the patient's asleep, I tell my team, if you see something, say something. I mean, it's like, ⁓ to borrow a cliched term from recent history, but if you see something, say something. I can't imagine that somebody would watch me drag a 15 blade across the mental nerve and just watch me do it, without saying like, Whoa, stop. I mean, I would expect that from my surgery team and I've educated them to feel comfortable doing so. I mean.

Sarah Haezebrouck: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And that's the key, allowing that conversation, hey, you are my second set of eyes, like we're in this together. So I need you to point it out or tell me or put something there, hey, talk.

Adam Hogan: Yeah. I remind them of the book in the checklist manifesto when they're talking about South Korean airlines airliner that plunged into the side of a mountain with 380 people on board or something. And they read the black box and in the black box, everyone in the cockpit was talking about how they were about to hit the mountain, but they weren't allowed to tell that they felt like they couldn't tell the captain of the plane. So they just watched the plane plunge. It could have all been avoided if they were just allowed to have open communication. So I tell them that story. I said, don't let me run into the side of the mountain. So you've worked for, of course you've never really seen a major complication because you've worked with Vishy, I know. So always been perfect, right? Just regular surgery.

Sarah Haezebrouck: Just regular surgeries. Thirds and some arches, that's it.

Adam Hogan: I'm sure. ⁓ Tell me what's, we'll get into surgeons specifically, but what do you see differently that oral surgeons do that surgically minded prosthodontists in general dentists could do better?

Sarah Haezebrouck: I think oral surgeons are just so medically based, especially the ones now, right? ⁓ They are super extensive when it comes to medical history, which is a lot different than what I see with, you know, a GP or someone like a super GP. That's probably the biggest thing because I don't want to say oral surgeons, unless they're doing a lot of all on X and they're direct to consumer marketing. their surgeries are really no different than a super GP, right? If they're getting referral based, just for referrals, I feel like they, a lot of times super GPs may know the workflow just like a little bit better because that's all they're focused on. But one of the biggest differences I see is just basically the medical, like the medical history, the medical background, they're very, they're a lot more intensive. And then

Adam Hogan: Hmm.

Sarah Haezebrouck: unless they've had more training, just the remote anchorage. So besides that standard all on four, I feel like there's a lot of super GPs that could go right up next to an oral surgeon and have the same skillset. ⁓

Adam Hogan: you

Sarah Haezebrouck: except for a lot of super GPs not wanting to touch like a zygote or not wanting to do terries. They don't feel comfortable. They'll send that to an oral surgeon.

Adam Hogan: Right. I think that's a common theme. I see that all the time in my group chats. ⁓ People, doctors getting involved in cases that probably need a little bit more prior workup, medically speaking, or precautions, or possibly to hold back on a case that they shouldn't maybe otherwise delve into just yet. So I definitely could agree with that. ⁓ Is it possible then, how is it possible then to... to gain that workflow and to gain that knowledge for a super GP or a prosthodontist who wants to become more surgically minded. I mean, where do they go for that training?

Sarah Haezebrouck: ⁓ So 100%, like, you know, they can always go to your institute is amazing. You start from the basics and work all the way up. ⁓ Orca is an option. There's, you know, a lot of doctors, but once again, that's something you want to work your way into. You don't want to just sign up and go to that, right? You'll be lost. ⁓ So starting somewhere, making sure you involve your team members, and then make sure you do a cadaver course, make sure you see the live surgeries or ask for a one-on-one training. Right? So many of you doctors will do a one-on-one. It's harder when you're not licensed in the same state, but like I know Florida now, you can get a, ⁓ like a traveling license that used to be, you couldn't get a Florida license. So a lot of states now I feel like are starting to do that where you can apply. just take the laws and then get fingerprinted and you're good to go. That can happen within a few days. So maybe having that one-on-one mentor mentorship and doing a couple of those cases. Right? I always see you print out. the like the skull from the CBCT. It's huge. Not enough doctors. I feel like do that. ⁓ I do see some oral surgeons doing that though. They always look right. So we're going to study the case on the CBCT. We have the model so we can figure out where we're placing everything. Do the model work. Do it on the patient. I don't feel like that's done enough. And I feel like that's such a strong way to learn because you're seeing it, right? You're holding in your hand. ⁓ But definitely doing more than one course. cannot, I don't feel like be confident doing Zygos or pteragoids one course, no hands on, just watching. Like to me, you have to be in there, have a mentor, do a one-on-one with a doc, have them come out to your office or you do it. So you have a patient and you go through everything right there.

Adam Hogan: Yeah. ⁓ yeah, I couldn't agree more. ⁓ Numerous courses, numerous mentors, but staying out of trouble, getting back to the medical history, ⁓ while we're on that subject, I'd be remiss if I didn't just give doctors a little bit of advice, especially young practitioners and GPs. ⁓ What I do is ⁓ medical clearance, and I'm not saying medical clearance, I don't send out a letter saying is it okay to operate on this person. That is so... past say past tense like cliche, we don't do that. You're a doctor, be a doctor. I get an H and P, I say get a physical, I wanna see your complete review of systems, I get an EKG, and then docs read it. Read it over and go over it with the patient. think start right there. I mean that's kinda what you're talking about with your oral surgery and their approach to medical and their systems, is it not? Right.

Sarah Haezebrouck: Mm-hmm. Correct. Whereas you still see some GPs just getting a medical clearance. Well, most of those doctors are only saying, ⁓ they're on Plavix or they're on, you know, they take a baby aspirin. They're really not diving in. Like they are not telling you, are they on a GLP one? Are they doing this? Because those patients, right? If you're intubating them, they can't eat the night before whatever hours, cause that stuff, everything is slowed down. ⁓ So just being more cautious of those things and not just sending that.

Adam Hogan: Right? Yeah.

Sarah Haezebrouck: medical clearance, like, hey, can they be off their blood thinner for however many days? It's more than that. ⁓ So that's definitely the difference for sure.

Adam Hogan: Yeah, right. It's not blood thinners and recent orthopedic surgeries. There's a whole lot more. Are you going to have to swallow some amoxicillin before we do this? Yeah, right, careful. So that's where we're going with this. yeah, you talked about printing models. I teach that.

Sarah Haezebrouck: Right. Do you need a pre-med? Yeah, yeah.

Adam Hogan: all the time, like print your models, do the surgery twice. I mean, do it in the lab and then go do it on the patient. And even better if you guide it. But, ⁓ you know, I know doctors that are really big experts at this and they've been doing a lot and they still print models as they should. And I know others that go, ⁓ you know, I don't even look, I don't even do anything. I just kind of walk in and I know done so many of these things. And I think, you know, how ridiculous is it to think that like a Super Bowl quarterback would try to try to perform in the Super Bowl and not throw a few practice passes beforehand.

Sarah Haezebrouck: Right, because it's all okay until it's not okay. Right?

Adam Hogan: Yeah, you only get one chance. You only get one chance to perfect it, right? So is that so that would be one thing that makes a great surgeon, great surgeons practice and they study the case before they do it. And they got a great review of systems and they know their patient inside and out medically speaking. Is there anything else that goes to making a great surgeon? When you say like, I want to work for this gal or this guy? Like what makes a really great surgeon other than those?

Sarah Haezebrouck: so I feel like doctors that are true mentors, like to educate what the doctors that I learned from the most are the doctors I like to work with the most because I'm learning from them. I don't like to just go in and do the same thing over and over. Like I know we see the same, you know, teeth or teeth and lips or lips and cheeks or cheeks, but every case is different and we can learn something from everything. So the doctors, I, tend to gravitate more towards are the ones that want to mentor. They want to push you to be your best and they want to teach you so that you learn, you know, feel like you have some type of. ⁓ you have a reason to be there. Like you're not just filling a hole and clocking in and clocking out. Like I really want to feel part of the practice. So those are the doctors that I tend to work for the most and doctors that can have a great time too. Like it's all serious all the time when we're in surgery, but it's going to be able to laugh too. You're with your doctor or your team more than you're with your family a lot of times. So it's super important to make sure that you have that good balance with your team and that you can show them that you appreciate them the same thing vice versa, but have fun. Like it's not all appreciation isn't always about, we're going to go do something or, you know, give you something, but just having that good balance in and out of the operatory to me is important.

Adam Hogan: I Let's talk about the team then. how do you find, ⁓ you know, I believe that I found that not everybody is built to be a surgery tech. Not everybody is built to be a restorative tech either, you know. You know, what are some of the attributes and how do you find a good surgery tech? Because I know a lot of doctors out there are struggling to find the right team members.

Sarah Haezebrouck: Right, so you can teach people a lot of things, right? You can't teach them good customer service. You can't teach them common sense. You can't teach too many people multitasking. So most really good, strong assistants that I know, they were all some type of hospitality person. They worked at some point as a bartender or a server because they're always thinking ahead so they can anticipate what the next thing is gonna be. They multitask so can think of several things at one time. And then they still have like that good customer service. where they know how to talk to people ⁓ and communicate well with patients. I've seen a lot of people go in and out of school, because like I said, I had assisting school. I know within three days if they're going to make it or not, three days, because I can tell how they multitask. Just teaching them how to hold a pencil, it's not going to work out.

Adam Hogan: you

Sarah Haezebrouck: So people, like I know ⁓ everyone wants to get somebody right out of school or with experience, but sometimes you'll find someone that's like a really good server. ⁓ So people, like I know ⁓ everyone wants to get somebody right out of school or with experience, but sometimes you'll find someone that's like a really good server. ⁓ or someone that always knows what you need, that's the person that I want on my team because I know they can handle high volume, click pace, and they can make it happen. or someone that always knows what you need, that's the person that I want on my team because I know they can handle high volume, click pace, and they can make it happen.

Adam Hogan: Yeah, I think I mentioned this on my pod with Allie, but there's a server that I'm working on to get here. Up the street, probably when I leave here, I'll pick up, take out, and she's over here, and she's, I won't say where, but she runs the to-go section, and she is flying, and she's not only doing her work, but she's doing the work of the bartender, she's out on the floor, she's helping to bus, she's helping to manage, she's greeting people at the door, and she's all over the place, and just getting it.

Sarah Haezebrouck: Nice. She's it.

Adam Hogan: And I recently introduced myself as the doctor of the street. And I was like, you ever think about getting out of restaurants? Because I've got a career for you. And I mean, I see surgery tech all over her. She can multitask, and she can think for herself, and she can move on the fly. And I'm thinking surgery tech all the way.

Sarah Haezebrouck: Yeah. Yep. That's the best ones. Everyone I talk to, I'm like, we are a bartender and they're like, oh yeah, I to be a server. And it's always that because you're quick on your feet and you're anticipating the next move and you know, and they have to know not from a book. have to know and watch and see what's happening to anticipate, right? If we memorize, you can't memorize a surgery. You can memorize restorative, but the second something is not the way you think it's going to be, then you're lost. So you have to be able to see, follow. Watch and know what to do now.

Adam Hogan: This is actually where I see a lot of doctors sometimes get into trouble too. ⁓ Or where, trouble, that's kind of a strong way to phrase it, but where I see doctors sometimes struggle. They're great thinkers, they're great at... They're great at more memorization and knowing recipes for things like maybe prosthetics, right? Or the procedures and a simple filling, something that's short lived, 15 minutes. But when you get into a long-winded procedure that's multifaceted, you really have to be able to pivot and think and be a thinking dentist, not just a regurgitating, you know, knowledge dentist because, you know, things don't always go exactly as you would expect them to go, right?

Sarah Haezebrouck: Yeah, especially in surgery, their bone could look one way and then you get in there and like we've talked about before, it's mush or it's like chicken noodle soup. Like it's just not. So then what do you do? Or you forgot to take a pre-op record. Now what do you do? Or their teeth were mobile and their bike kept moving. Did you think about what you need to do to get a stable bike? All these things are never the same in surgery. Whereas a filling that's simple, you can do it. But once you cross over, Yeah, none of those things are ever the same. Every single time it's going to be something different.

Adam Hogan: So the ability to ⁓ think and pivot, or as we say, shoot, move, communicate in the Marine Corps, the ability to call an audible on the fly is paramount to a surgeon, right? Yeah, I would agree. And for the same reason, I found that with assistants, there are assistants who want to be in the surgery room, but I can't safely put them in there for the patient's sake because...

Sarah Haezebrouck: Yes.

Adam Hogan: They're not able to multitask, but they can do things in the restorative chair very well. They know how to do B before C before D, right? And you don't really get these ⁓ situations where the mistakes can be, well, I don't wanna say it, but they can be quite complex and lead to ⁓ potentially threatening injuries. So not everybody's built for an operatory, I guess. You had, go ahead.

Sarah Haezebrouck: No, and those, those assistants are fine. Like not everyone is built to be in the surgery room. You're right. Like you have to be able to pivot and you have to be able to learn and listen to those commands. Like if the doctor is saying this, okay, we got to do something else. This is not, you know, step B and C is not happening. We were doing a whole nother plan. So it's super important to be able to be open to that and always open to change in the surgery room.

Adam Hogan: Right. I agree. Let's pivot out of surgery because you're the lot of people know you as a former surgery tech, but there's a lot more to you. I know that ⁓ you've been around the all on four world for about as long as I have, I think. And so you've seen it evolve from analog to digital. Now you're teaching photography and internal scanning and face scanning and photogrammetry. ⁓ Tell me about that evolution and where you're at right now.

Sarah Haezebrouck: Yeah, so I remember getting the first inter-roll scanner, right? I worked with SIRAC when it was still 2D and like a black and green screen. So it's 100%, I feel like we're moving in the right direction with digital. ⁓ If you don't have an inter-roll scanner at this point in your life, ⁓ why? Like it's, you have to, just like I know doctors that still don't have digital x-rays, like what are we doing?

Adam Hogan: you

Sarah Haezebrouck: We've got to get, it's easier to get records first of all to any type of lab. You get things faster, you get them back faster. There are rules to scanning, right? Like every scanner has its little things. You can't just start scanning and hop over. So you have to learn how that scanner works and you have to use it properly. Else you can have as many mistakes with a scanner as you can with a bad impression. And we know that the people that do it all the time know it. So that's super important. I feel like photogrammetry and internal scanning has changed the game so much from going from six appointments or more to two appointments or less, right? So if you're just wasting your chair time on try-ins and jigs and that didn't work, so we're going to do it again, you're losing money. Doctors are only making money and profitable when they are doing surgery or they have a handpiece in their hand, right? We're not making money. when we have deliveries or seats, we know that. So being ⁓ just more productive, getting rid of all those unnecessary appointments is the biggest game changer. ⁓ I feel like it's okay if you're only doing one or two arches a month, do you need photogrammetry? Probably not yet. Have a lab come in and do the photogrammetry for you now, but have a printer and have an internal scanner. If you have those two things, you can have a lab do the rest until you ramp up your marketing or you get to need where you get to be where you need to be. ⁓ But if you don't, you're wasting so much money and time. really life is short. Like to waste that much time and money on things that are so unnecessary that we have fixes for, ⁓ to me just doesn't make sense.

Adam Hogan: Yeah, I agree, I couldn't agree more. I I was gonna give up full arch. I was just about to give up full arch before photogrammetry. I was so tired of jigs and models and six, nine, 12 appointments, oh my God. Conversions alone, oh my God, the operatory was a mess. To think that, I always think about this, we would work under a sterile field and we would scrub in like we're going to do open heart surgery and doctors would,

Sarah Haezebrouck: Yeah, conversions.

Adam Hogan: pick on each other's aseptic sterile techniques and they're not doing it well enough. They're not doing, they're cutting corners. Their surgical sterile technique sucks and then everybody in the middle of the procedure pulls out a denture and starts grinding acrylic all over the mouth. And I mean, nah, we just kind of close our eyes. We look the other way. It's all.

Sarah Haezebrouck: No big deal. Yeah, I had a doctor one time get upset. I was walking by and my surgical gown touched the edge of the paper, like on his surgical tray. And he's like, it's not sterile. And I'm like, what? Like a side of my gown touched the bottom of the paper. But then you could see like his scrub top was too short and his skin was, I was like, ⁓ okay. Like there's so many things that that is not gonna make your implant fail, right? But.

Adam Hogan: Yeah. Hahaha

Sarah Haezebrouck: That's true. The amount of acrylic that's not even all over the tray, but on the floor and then go back again, a widen the hole more, just get the impression material now. And then we're putting that in there and the gun and it's, we don't need to do that. So let's make our lives easier. It's just like, not everyone, I guess, has an iPhone. I guess people still have a Blackberry or whatever, if they're still doing analog or the Nokia flip phone, they're just not ready. Yeah. But they have an iPhone, but they won't get an interval scanner.

Adam Hogan: Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, well, it's like 2026. mean, part of me feels like we're still in the dark ages of dentistry. But on the other flip side of that, it's like if you don't have an internal scanner and if you're still taking analog, if I walk in your office and I smell fixer and developer, you should probably retire or find something else to do. Like, there's no need for that.

Sarah Haezebrouck: Yeah, there's dentists that don't have a pano or a CBCT. I just, I just talked to someone in there like, so I really want to get a full arch. What's the first step? Somebody told me that it would be getting a CBCT. Correct. I think you should start there. And then the next step, but if you don't have a CBCT, I mean, the amount of times I've had to take a CBCT on a patient.

Adam Hogan: You

Sarah Haezebrouck: and found even like a fistula or a fracture tooth on something that they weren't even concerned about, but you see it and you find it, it's amazing. Like they had no idea.

Adam Hogan: Yeah, it's a top five just to open the doors and turn on the lights. know, CBCT, ⁓ interaural scanner, 3D printer, probably a face scanner if you want to do awesome work, digital ⁓ camera, which that's like people don't even mention anymore, but it's obvious. But those top five. And then I think some dynamic guided surgery is a huge bonus, even for your most experienced practitioners, but especially for you young doctors. Just the ability to go in there and pre-planet prosthetically and surgery at the same time. You need those six pieces of equipment. You mentioned do I need a CBCT. ⁓ This is a specialist who came up to me after I talked at a symposium five or six years ago and we were discussing digital dentistry and he said he only gets a CBCT for the difficult all-on-four procedures, for the ones that are harder, more complex.

Sarah Haezebrouck: Mm. Mm.

Adam Hogan: And then he sends them across town to go get it. I thought, okay, the harder ones. Okay. I'm not sure what that. Yeah. Well, I think that's the irony is what I'm saying is the best predictor of if it's going to be easier hard is let's look at the CBCT. That's step one. Like, where do you.

Sarah Haezebrouck: because you can predict that. Right. Or take an FMX, I don't know. You're not gonna see anything. Yeah, I had a doctor just last week. Should I get a CBCT? Every office, GPs, general dentistry, everyone should have a CBCT.

Adam Hogan: Yeah. I agree. ⁓ So photogrammetry, you are teaching Micromapper right now. Tell me about it. I mean, we use it every day. We used it this morning. Tell me about it.

Sarah Haezebrouck: Yep. I love it. So the Micron Mapper is by far the easiest ⁓ photogrammetry system I've seen. It's lightweight. Everything processed at camera level. So you need just a Windows computer. You don't need anything fancy. You can put it on as many computers as you want. So you don't have to worry about just one laptop. You can have it on any computer. It gives you obviously if people don't... don't know what photogrammetry is. It's giving you the XY coordinates of the implants in a single plane. So ⁓ if anyone would I tell people that don't understand, if you've ever tried to put your own furniture together from Ikea or anywhere, and then you get to those last screw channels and they don't really fit. So you kind of like push the particle board together and then you jam the screw in there. It's essentially what you're doing without photogrammetry. Like you're going to make it fit and that's fine. But after a while, that particle board starts separating and you can imagine the same thing is happening in the bone, right? So we don't have the forces distributed evenly on the implants. And then we start getting bone loss and things happen to our implants. But the Micromapper, we teach kids at seminars where like, old are you? Five? you know, let me teach you. All you need to know is a patient's name, what job you're doing, how many implants you have. Put that in there, turn the light on, take the scan. Within 10 seconds, let's say a new person, maybe 15, 20. You have your data, it automatically exports as an STL. So you're not converting files, drop and drag it right to the lab or have your in-house designer. It's a game changer. It's so affordable. ⁓ It's considerably less than the others. Intro oral scanning is the biggest variable. So other photogrammetry that's with an intro scanner. I haven't seen it work in a surgery. I want to see it. I know things get better all the time, but that's our biggest variable that we're trying to get rid of. with the CBCT workflow and stuff like that. ⁓ So to me, it's the best system. I've tried to use ICAM before. ⁓ Our support is great with the Micromapper. It's within the United States. You're not calling the Philippines. ⁓ And if anything happens, we have a warranty. You get a loaner right out if you have to get a repair. But ⁓ the biggest thing is the customer service, the support for me. And it's super easy to use.

Adam Hogan: So, Supri, let's follow up on that. ⁓ My team loves it because it never fails. I mean, it's simple to use and it's very fast. So it's in our surgery room every day. ⁓ it's got to be, equipment has to be easy to use, okay? Because you go back to assistants or people. ⁓ If everybody in the office can't easily, readily use it and wants to use it, it's worthless to me. You know, I mean, we've... ⁓ I've had complex technology in the office that I as the dentist thought was great and I brought it in and if I'm not like putting my thumb on people, use it, use it, use it. If I turn it the other way, I find out that it's been sitting in the corner for a week or a month or never get to be brought out ever again. So I call it the lowest common denominator ⁓ theory is that if the weakest person in the office can't use it, it's worthless, right?

Sarah Haezebrouck: Denise.

Adam Hogan: Because if only Sarah can use, if everyone has to be like, hey Sarah, we need to do this, and you're like the only person that can use it, it's not worth anything to me, right?

Sarah Haezebrouck: That's true. I've taught office managers how to use it just in case they ever have to hop in for a scan. It's that easy. Like it's that easy. Put the name in, toggle down, you're using upper, lower arch and how many implants? Take the scan.

Adam Hogan: Yeah. Probably, I think I should change my phrase. It's probably a little insulting to say the lowest common denominator if you're on the assistant side of listening to that. I'll probably have to change it to like the admin, the admin rule. the admin can use it, okay. Now I'm offending admin people everywhere.

Sarah Haezebrouck: Can the admin use it? Okay. We're fine. They're usually IT techie, a lot of the admin people.

Adam Hogan: That's true actually, sometimes when equipment has glitched, they're the people that I call first. Get this up and running, because I need my chair side people chair side. Someone else fix the computer. All right, so I'm changing that. I'm trying not to be so offensive in my old age now. ⁓ How did you get into ⁓ training? You mentioned you had a dental school or assistant school. Is that right? Is that closed now?

Sarah Haezebrouck: Yeah. Yeah, I did. I don't have time for it. Yeah.

Adam Hogan: Yeah. Okay. So how did you get onto that side of assisting from assisting to training and now into corporate ⁓ with SIN? I mean, how did that transition go?

Sarah Haezebrouck: So I was a lead assistant for a private practice and I knew Gus Kalil. ⁓ Everyone knows Gus, but he works with Micromapper, right? So I knew him and he told me he had this great opportunity for me. So he introduced me to Patrick. That's kind of how I got into SIN. I was at first a territory manager for the state of Florida. That was short because the clinical trainer they had, she decided to step aside and I thought like that she had the coolest job to me like going in doing the surgery still being in the patient care but then not having to write chart notes and being able to leave if the doctor wasn't a peach. ⁓ So when she stepped down they asked me if I would be open to that and 100 % I took it like I loved it. I did have a school when I was in private practice I went through the Board of Education did the entire program. The building and the school was actually owned by the doctor I worked for. ⁓ But I've had a lot of assistants that I'm still friends with today that I taught. They're very successful, but I just love teaching it, right? I'm changing lives by giving somebody a skill. And then I still love the surgery, so I'm not completely out of assisting. Like I'm still in that space, ⁓ but able to do a lot more. So it's the perfect blend for me.

Adam Hogan: you Yeah, I love it. I mean, feel like you've made it or is there more? Have you made it or is there more? What are you looking to aspire to do next? Is there a Is there like a sea plan now or what? Where are going?

Sarah Haezebrouck: Nah. No, there's no dental, no dental school in sight for me. I'd have to retake all my courses, redo my bachelor's I've already looked, but ⁓ I love where I'm at.

Adam Hogan: Oh, I wasn't suggesting you become a doctor. I wouldn't, you I don't want to have to like be the one responsible for you going into this kind of misery. I think you're ultimately in the driver's seat right now. I mean, you get to do what you want to do and you travel. Yeah. And you're not tied to a bunch of, you know, patients or employees, you know, you just kind of come into your thing and you get to go home.

Sarah Haezebrouck: That would be the only plan. That would be the only plan. Yeah, I do. I love it. Yeah, and I get to work with amazing doctors all over the country, which is the best part, because I can learn from so many. And even though the space is so big, it's so tiny.

Adam Hogan: Yeah, everybody knows everybody, right? ⁓ So you've seen, you've been on this journey through all these different implants and analog and digital. What are some of the biggest complaints that doctors have about implants or implant companies? What do they worry about? What do see that's a trend?

Sarah Haezebrouck: to me, it's the support or lack of companies that don't listen to the doctors. That's a lot of things, you know, I told my rep, I needed this for so long. Company didn't listen. So companies not listening to the doctors and the doctors are the ones that are in it every single day. Right. You guys are in the trenches. So having a company that listens to the doctors and actually listens and does something about it, not just, okay, well listen. And then they're still waiting for, you know, what they asked for a long time ago. That's what I truly love about being like with people like Patrick and Chris ⁓ Jeremy they all listen to everything the feedback from the doctors and They take it and we develop it or we change it. The other thing I find is When you have so many parts Right, like so many platforms and so many parts and pieces doctors are having to have so much inventory And then what happens if you never use those eyes and now it's gonna expire

Adam Hogan: Mm-hmm.

Sarah Haezebrouck: not switching out. So having just one platform and kind of a one size fits all, like having your multi-units, your scan bodies, they fit everything from your standard implants to your Zygos, to your Tera. Like everything just fits the same. You're not trying to run around and find, no, I need, you know, a purple 3.5 or whatever it is. Like some of the implants I worked with as assistant, I never understood. I'm like, what? What do mean this doesn't match? Like, why are we getting green with purple? Like, I don't understand.

Adam Hogan: All right. Mm-hmm.

Sarah Haezebrouck: ⁓ so having something that's simple and easy, and then the doctors don't have to have, I was always taught, ⁓ and this was from corporate, always order for what you need for the next two to three weeks. God forbid something happens. What are you doing with all of this stuff? Right? So you get into a formula, you know what you need and you know what you have having that many pieces and parts. It's unnecessary now. I have a system that has everything and one kid or minimal kits, the more pieces, the more things get lost.

Adam Hogan: you Right, yep. All Well, I couldn't agree more. Because I'm as much of a business guy as I'm a clinical guy. I love the business side of dentistry, ⁓ hence our course on how to 51020. ⁓ just inventory management alone is a huge number. And if you're dealing with, if a company has two different implants and each implant has two or three different platforms, I already know you're not a smart businessman or woman. I mean, come on.

Sarah Haezebrouck: Yeah.

Adam Hogan: Can you imagine manufacturing cars that had different size, I don't know, tires, and you gotta carry them all in stock? It would be much better to just have one size tire. So I get it, it's huge. And for those that don't know, you and I have been around long enough to go through the days that we had to order everything a la cart. You ordered an implant, you could never get bulk discount those days. You ordered an implant, had to get a cover screw. healing abutment, permicostal abutment, what do I want? Everything had to be ordered. And we would get $800 into one crown, you know, in just parts. Unbelievable. Now with SIN, we're getting an entire arch in under $800, right? You know, I mean, easily under 800. That's probably 800 with remote Anchorage.

Sarah Haezebrouck: And it's easy to use and it's less parts. The assistants just don't have so many things to order stock. You give them the sizes for the surgeries coming up. They don't have to worry about, okay, it's this platform because we need a wide, we need a narrow, need, it's confusing to have enough on their plates as everyone does. Just make it simple, make it easy and have listened to the doctors. Really. Like that's what it comes down to because doctors get frustrated.

Adam Hogan: Yeah. there for sure. So let's talk about digital dentistry. Why are doctors struggling and hesitant to put digital dentistry into their offices? What are the bottlenecks? are the holdbacks?

Sarah Haezebrouck: I think some of it is assistants that are older that are just set in their ways, to be honest. ⁓ Technology is not taught in a lot of, at least in Florida, it's not taught in assisting schools. ⁓ I had my own internal scanner that I brought in, but besides that, ⁓ schools don't have the money for that if it's like a small school, if it's a big college, yes. But the assistants have to be able to use it and they have to know, or like you said, it's gonna sit in the corner. So if. The doctors bought something and the assistants aren't open to using it or they don't know how they don't feel confident because they haven't been trained. They're not going to use it. And the doctor's not going to see any need to add more technology because he's seen it as a waste of money in the past. Right. ⁓ Scanners now you can get, think a trios three for like $12,000. It's not a trios five, but trios three works great for full arch. You know, you're not doing crowns and stuff. You're just.

Adam Hogan: Right. Yeah. down.

Sarah Haezebrouck: scanning tissue and teeth. ⁓ I don't think it's a money thing anymore. I think there's too many ways and promos and ways you can get scanners for cheap or none. There's labs that give them away. I think more so than not, it's the team. The team is afraid to use it or they don't feel confident because they're not trained.

Adam Hogan: Yeah. I think that that is a major hold back. think about my days. I when I came out of the Navy to private practice, I was in the Sarek. I think it was three. And, we had one Sarek assistant, you know, and only whatever name was, you know, Trish did Sarek and the rest of the team would be like, I'm not getting involved. And then, ⁓ you know, then we had two and it became an issue if somebody was sick or quit or fired, whatever.

Sarah Haezebrouck: Mm-hmm.

Adam Hogan: And then when I opened up the systems and I had internal scanners, I still had some assistants just running back to the impression material. And I would be, it was so hard. I finally had to mandate and say, if you don't pick up the scanner, you don't work here. Like, and then I finally had to stop buying the impression material and be like, you know, so they had no choice, but doctors, you have to sometimes just ⁓ lay down the law and say, this is what the practice is going to be. And if you don't want to do it, then you don't work here. I don't know what else to tell you. mean, they gotta get on board or get out.

Sarah Haezebrouck: Yeah, I agree. I feel like it's just a matter or lack of training. Scanning is easy once you know what the pattern and how to use the scanner.

Adam Hogan: Oh yeah, and we can show you. And I don't even think you have to go as high as a trios. I as high as 12,000, I mean, I think that...

Sarah Haezebrouck: ⁓ yeah. They have a shining L. They have all these scanners now, right?

Adam Hogan: The Shining scanner's really good, the Ally Star's really good. I mean, there's a whole bunch of scanners that can do full arch, and you can get in there for entertainment. And yet, I have doctors, you said they don't think it's cost. It's funny, so many doctors come to our courses, and they do complain about the cost, and they just don't understand business. And they don't understand what it means to be all in. I say, look, you need these five pieces of equipment.

Sarah Haezebrouck: Mm-hmm.

Adam Hogan: and you know, need a CBCT, you need a 3D printer, an internal scanner, you know, you need a, what else am I missing, a photogrammetry unit, and you you probably should have, you know, like XNAV or something like that. And they go, oh my God, you $100,000 or $200,000. They go, well, I'll just buy this one piece now, and when I start making more money, I'll buy two, you know, and then I'll buy three. And it's absurd to me because you can get a,

Sarah Haezebrouck: Mm-hmm.

Adam Hogan: a loan for all this stuff and only owe five grand a month. And then do better dentistry and then you will do more of it. So it's like just get all in, like the name of the podcast. It's ridiculous to say that. Or people say, well, I recommend a CBCT that can go condyle the condyle from nasion to mentalis and just get the right CBCT. And so many doctors go. Well, that one's too expensive. I'll get one that does half. But when I do more of this, I'll upgrade. And like no business savvy whatsoever. You know, you're going to go through double the money and and triple the pain. Just get what you need right now. So easy. Micromapper is what to get all in. Just for example.

Sarah Haezebrouck: Yeah. So if you buy it cash, it's 19,995, $20,000. But the amount you save in appointment times by going digital and not having a lab come in and do it, you're paying for it or not paying $300 $400 per implant. There's ways to find the money. Find the money with your other expenses and there you go. Now you just found it.

Adam Hogan: And Yeah. ⁓ my God. Well, if you're a doctor out there listening who can't afford a $20,000 piece of equipment in one payment or two or three, first of all, you need to come to our business course or you need to get business training somewhere. But second, to think, at the very minimum worst case scenario, you could finance that and pay interest on it for 24 months and a payment on it be $400 a month or something dumb like that. And if you can't find $400 a month ... then should you be in practice for yourself or should you at least get more training? Train yourself or get out. mean, it's ridiculous to say that digital dentistry is expensive to me. Absolutely ridiculous. mean, my analog days, did you ever, I think you alluded to earlier in the talk, have you ever sat through ⁓ somebody taking 12 appointments that were three hours or more to get teeth?

Sarah Haezebrouck: Yeah, I agree.

Adam Hogan: I mean, have you ever done that? Yeah.

Sarah Haezebrouck: ⁓ I've had labs do that and I've seen it. And then you're just waiting there and they're like, can you take another patient? No, I'm still with Mrs. Jones. I can't leave, you know, cause the lab has to have somebody there, but it's just so much wasted chair time.

Adam Hogan: Yeah. Again, I was gonna quit this part of dentistry altogether at one point in time until I got fully into digital. I couldn't imagine doing it without. Could not imagine. you've been in dentistry for a couple of decades, all right? if there was one thing you could change about culture of dentistry, what would it be?

Sarah Haezebrouck: I think it would be the way we're looked at and the way we're just hated and people hate going. And I think it's because of the lack of education that we have in the US. Like we have so much, yet we don't educate any people on anything until they come through the doors. So they have this fear because they wait till it's so bad. And then it's so expensive.

Adam Hogan: Mm-hmm.

Sarah Haezebrouck: So then they know when they go in, it's going to be a lot, but they don't realize, well, you haven't been in in 10 years. Like had you come in for your routine cleanings, but there's just not an emphasis on that. And to me, I just don't understand why. You know, my dad was a dentist, so I grew up in it. So I never had that. So you really have to listen to people, but why is there such like a ⁓ fear or a bad rap when it comes to dentistry? You know, because I hear parents talk to their kids and I'm like, why are you telling them that? Like make it a good experience because you had a bad one. So let's change that. ⁓ But also, you know, people wait for their insurance and dental insurance is dead. It's like a coupon. Like I feel like so many dentists just need to say, we're not taking it anymore.

Adam Hogan: Right. Yeah. Mm-hmm. figured.

Sarah Haezebrouck: so really just changing the culture of how people see us and how people think it's so bad. that and I feel like referral-based dentistry is gone. At least oral surgery. I feel like the doctors that are still waiting on our referrals and not direct to consumer marketing are getting the stuff no one wants, the really difficult thirds or. patients that may have medical disabilities that they have to be completely sedated. And just insurance. feel like America as a whole, if we just got rid of insurance, somehow like insurance has been the same for 25 years at least, right?

Adam Hogan: 45 probably, yeah.

Sarah Haezebrouck: Yeah, so they ⁓ have to get rid of it. has to be looked at like a coupon, not an insurance plan. It's not medical insurance. So those are my two things about the dental that I would say would change our culture completely.

Adam Hogan: Yeah. I would agree. I've been insurance free for probably 12 years now. I couldn't imagine practicing any other way. ⁓ I just set my fees appropriately and I don't gouge people for nickel and dime stuff on the other side. And I've got side by side comparisons. I can prove that you'll pay the same amount or less here than you will at your insurance based office. And we're all up front with the sticker price. We don't surprise you.

Sarah Haezebrouck: Yeah. And you don't have to chase money. Like you don't have to play the insurance game, chase the insurance. If you want to file it, here's a form, file your insurance. This is what we did. But I feel like too many dentists are afraid to cut the insurance off. But you look at how much these insurance CEOs and stuff make, and they're still giving you a thousand dollars a year, but you're paying $325 a month for your insurance. Like it's to me insane.

Adam Hogan: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's absurd. And we still help people file it. I just tell, you know, I tell patients, know, you know, we're not waiting for Big Brother to tell you it's okay to have what you need to have done. I mean, like if your if your policy gives you $2,000 a year and I just tell them like.

Sarah Haezebrouck: Exactly.

Adam Hogan: Hey, if you have a valid policy and it gives $2,000 a year that you haven't already spent or been reimbursed for, if my team can't get $2,000 out of your insurance policy, we'll just write it off your bill. We're getting that $2,000. Don't worry about it. We don't have to wait for Big Brother. Sometimes I make up analogies like, imagine having a policy that says you can go eat food at a restaurant.

Sarah Haezebrouck: Yeah.

Adam Hogan: at a fine dining restaurant or your favorite restaurant, whatever it is. But when you get there, you find out you don't have coverage for some of the better stuff on the menu. You know, like. Yeah, you can have the soup. You can eat soup and sandwiches, but you can't have entrees. Not yet. You have to wait 12 months.

Sarah Haezebrouck: You can just have a kid's meal. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then you can have an appetizer and we're only paying 50 % of your meal.

Adam Hogan: Yeah, right. And then even though you have coverage for the entree, you have to ask us first. And we'll probably say no because we know that the sandwich will cover your hunger. that's what.

Sarah Haezebrouck: Yeah. And we can deny it at any time. Yeah, isn't that crazy? That's such a good analogy though, because it's true. And people are like, oh no, my insurance is gonna be $2,000. No, they pay 50 % up to 2,000. And when's the last time they looked at your mouth to decide what you need?

Adam Hogan: Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah Haezebrouck: They don't even look at your x-rays. You have to tell them which tooth is which tooth when you send the claim in. So I assure you they have no idea what you need in your mouth.

Adam Hogan: Yeah. None, no clue, nor do they care because they're just looking at their margins each quarter, which is why you have more denials at the end of the quarter. It's not a secret. Yeah, it's not a secret at all. All right, let's do a little lightning round. Okay, you ready? All right, who's the best surgeon you ever worked with and why?

Sarah Haezebrouck: That's right. That's true. Oh, so work work, vishy. Why? Because he is truly a mentor and a teacher. 100 % hands down. He is always teaching and I love

Adam Hogan: love it. What's the most overrated skill?

Sarah Haezebrouck: ⁓ overrated surgically or overall in dentistry.

Adam Hogan: overall in dentistry.

Sarah Haezebrouck: Placing class two fillings as an EFDA.

Adam Hogan: Okay, most underrated skill.

Sarah Haezebrouck: Hmm, most underrated. think anything digital. Honestly, if you have the digital skills, you got going on.

Adam Hogan: Nice. Biggest misconception about assistance.

Sarah Haezebrouck: Really that they don't, like I feel like so many people think assistance just sucks a bit. Like they just stand to your side and really assistance, I feel like are the heartbeat of the team. Hygienists go to them, doctors go to them. I feel like they do so much. And when you look at like how other people look at them, they're like, oh, they just like a retract and use the suction. And that's so not true.

Adam Hogan: What's one thing that every dentist should know tomorrow?

Sarah Haezebrouck: Hmmmm What's one thing every dentist should know tomorrow that your team is capable? You just have to empower them.

Adam Hogan: I love that. That's beautiful. Yes, you can teach a person on my business class. Let's do it. And so what's one thing that assistants can do to be better tomorrow?

Sarah Haezebrouck: Oops. Yeah. Open your mind and stop being content. I was an assistant. I raised my kids being an assistant. I never stopped learning and I always kept grinding. Like literally people ask me all the time and I'm like, I went to every course that I could. I made, I asked every dentist, can I please do this? This is what I can do for you if I do this. So 100%, that's how.

Adam Hogan: Love that too. Step in, take initiative, let people know where you can be helpful and where you want to learn and grow. Right? Don't be complacent.

Sarah Haezebrouck: No, ever. In life, we shouldn't be content or complacent. Always want more. Always want better. Always strive to be the best person you can be every single day.

Adam Hogan: Mm-hmm. I love it. You are ⁓ definitely an asset in this business, in this whole world, in this culture that we have called dentistry. I truly value you being here on the show and I value your friendship and your your mentorship as well at our classes at the Institute. So thank you very much, Sarah, for being here. This has been Absolute Treat This Hour.

Sarah Haezebrouck: Yeah, thanks for having me. I appreciate it.

Adam Hogan: You're very welcome. Hopefully I'll see you soon. I don't know. Do have any plans? Do you know your travel schedule?

Sarah Haezebrouck: I'll be in Alabama next week and then I'll be in Raleigh, but that's it. Nothing really for the summer.

Adam Hogan: Are you gonna be, think SIN's doing a CE event with the race car in Texas, I think, in November by any chance? I think I was asked to go to that one, I'm not sure if you're going.

Sarah Haezebrouck: I don't know because I'm sure JB will be there. Caitlin, JB and Ashley are all there. ⁓ There's also one coming up in ⁓ Philly area. That's this summer. So maybe I'll be able to go to that one. We'll see. I'm jealous.

Adam Hogan: Okay. ⁓ yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, so for those, I'm sure you can get there, just call Patrick. ⁓ Yeah, so you've got the, for those who don't know, SIN has the race car, is it a Formula One car, a stock car, Formula One?

Sarah Haezebrouck: Right. So it is, you guys are gonna pick any car that you want and it's actually on the F1 track. The week after that race, you guys are gonna be on that same track and it is going to be phenomenal.

Adam Hogan: Yeah, I can't wait. All right. So if you want, you can come hear me do a little bit of implant CE or just say that you signed up for the course, but you really came for the race car. That's fine too. I'm not, my feelings are not hurt. I can't wait to be there and do that.

Sarah Haezebrouck: Go to the dinner, on the track. It's gonna be phenomenal. You're gonna have an awesome time.

Adam Hogan: Yeah, I can't wait. Well, Sarah, thank you. am better for knowing you and I'm better for having you during this conversation for you listeners out there. If you enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe on Spotify, on YouTube and on the pod app. Appreciate your support and all your love. Sarah, appreciate your support and love, too. OK, thank you very much. All right. Have a great night.

Sarah Haezebrouck: Thank you. See you soon. All right, bye.