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Adam Hogan, DDS: Well, man, welcome to the show. Thank you. Weissenberg. Yep. Weissenberg. I almost said Weisberg. There's actually debate in the family. Half of the family go by Weisenberg and the other half go by Weisenberg. Weisenberg. That sounds like what is that French Protestant? German Jew. Yeah, I could guess. The funniest part was my grandfather passed like years and years ago. They're going through the documentation. They find out the actual last name is Weisberger. Okay. Weisberger. Like a clamp. And his name wasn't Lester either. It was like Benjamin. And so we asked his sister, where did Lester come from? She's like, ⁓ I was dating someone named Benjamin and we liked the name better. So we started calling little, or no, she was dating a Lester. She's like, yeah, we just liked it better than Ben. So we just started calling him Lester. Change your name. It's like giving yourself a nickname.

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Adam Hogan, DDS: Well welcome in. Thank you. It's good to be here. It's a pleasure to meet you in person and thanks for having me on. Yeah, well to give everyone a little background. I am traveling right now in Salt Lake City, taking care of my wife. Her surgery went great and right now her dad's with her. so I'm out here in Salt Lake City and I was like, who in the local Salt Lake City area would be worthy of talking to for dental implants and reconstructive dentistry? And I threw that out in my WhatsApp group on Full Arch Addicts. And I had a couple of people be like, you need to call Micah. He's doing some amazing, amazing shit out there in Salt Lake. That's just, thank you so much. Like that's a huge validation. Cause like you and I have only interacted

Evan Kinnear: And after the continuum, we have modules in FP1 fixed immediate load and also business, how to 51020.

Adam Hogan, DDS: over social media. Even Bruce and I have only interacted over social media. I've kind of kept my head down as much as possible. Well, you must be making, you must be impressing people. I will say I just had like a 15, 20 minute conversation with you the other day and I was impressed already. I mean, just your view of the world and where you're at in the world and your place in the world and you're at very much peace with yourself, I can tell. You got the family, the kids, everybody, we can talk about all of it.

Evan Kinnear: this is business leadership and operational strategy so that can build surgically what actually in practical business. If you're ready to go into full arch dentistry with intention, structure, accountability, and purpose, you can learn more at theatlanticimplantinstitute.com.

Adam Hogan, DDS: And then your practice, what you're doing for the community. think it's right up there on par with anybody in the world. And I love being out here in this, I'll call it like a grassroots. Yeah, it's a tiny operatory. Look, what do you think this is, like 800,000 square feet? Thousand square feet, yeah. Four ops, real simple. And I love being able to do some of the highest end work without paying the craziest overhead and having to transfer that to the patients. We're gonna have a big business conversation ⁓ because I love what you talked about on the phone about lowering expenses and increasing dentistry value. And you can do a lot in a small space and I think we do too. We're gonna talk about business. Let me introduce you just a little bit. I did a little biography on you. And you could probably do your own biography a little bit better. ⁓ But you're out of Maryland, Bowie, Maryland. Bowie, Maryland. You're like a biomechanical chemical engineer. my undergrads were molecular biology, biochemistry, and bioinformatics. had minors in chemistry and business. That blows my mind. First of all, my mind is going to be blown a lot because I've been at the hospital for three days, and I really haven't slept. So if I seem like I'm a little slow, it's because usually I'm slow, but now I'm extra slow. OK, so what are you doing in dentistry? And wait, and. While you were in dental school, you developed an intraoral scanner, new technology, made a patent. It looked to me like you met with all kinds of lawyers and geniuses about this product. And when I was in dental school, I was just trying to cut a class two prep. dental school was a nightmare for me. Why? So like, I'm a thinker. Like I'm a conceptual guy. Right. But everything at the universe at University of Maryland was just memorization regurgitation. Rogue memorization. Yeah. ⁓ yeah. Just regurgitate what we tell you. Okay. One of the best stories from dental school. Yeah. So oral pathology, was just, it was taught by this fossil of an old man who just you could tell did not want to be there. So University of Maryland had his new building. was nine stories. Five of them were just research. and to do your research, you still had to teach some courses. So it was like pawned off on you. And you could tell. And so we're taking oral pathology and it's just like, here's the condition, here's the histology, here's the symptoms, here's the treatment, next. Wait, from his slides and his slide decks from 1978? Yeah. Keep on, I've been in those classes for sure. And he tells us at the beginning, I only take what the authors of your textbooks say. So any other information is extraneous. And I'm struggling in this class. Like just memorization and just multiple choice. You couldn't be more bored. You can't skip the class, just read the textbook. I did that for a couple of my classes. I would show up on day one in the last day and get an A. So University of Maryland, so they didn't have, they would just tell you you're responsible for whatever is in the PowerPoint. and it would be like 1600 slides. And so like we made study groups and the University of realized like, you know, probably the quality of education is not the best. Rather than sending the teachers to like a teaching thing, Like we're just going to record all of these. You guys can rewatch it. Okay. Cause we have all that time. Yeah. got a lot of time. Sure. Let's watch it twice. Sure. So the way they would do the exams, we'll go back to the oral pathology thing, but the way they do the exams is they would Here's all the things that you're responsible for. You go in, it's on the computer, you have to log in this special software, you take your test, it will tell you what you got wrong, and you could write it down on a piece of paper and submit it to the professor saying, hey, I think this question was miskeied, I actually got it right. ⁓ But they would never release the exams, they would never give you any study materials. know, like test prep because they didn't want to remake the exams. Right. Yeah. Blows my mind. Just funneling people through. It is funneling people through getting them done. You know, we've talked, I've talked a lot about it in the show with other doctors about the education system. And I think we know it's broken, you know? And I mean, for those of you out there in education, let me say, I'm sure you're working your hardest and I'm sure that you love your job. have a passion for and if you're, if you're listening, you are a godsend. There are a handful of them in there that go out and get like an educational degree and come in with a passion. And they love teaching and they love doing their job, but it's just like any profession. And I don't really want to knock on all of education because we definitely had our MVPs up at the University of Michigan for sure. I mean, dozens of them, you know, and I really actually I loved Michigan's education problem when I went through it in 99 through 2003. I'll vouch for it in those four years. Superb, right? I think that it still lacked a lot of, you know, getting people ready for the future of dentistry. I see what they're doing now. Dennis Fassbinder is up there in Michigan and he's got a whole digital laboratory. And he was one of the original people on the ⁓ the impetus behind the whole SEREC project, like SEREC one and two and stuff like that. So they're doing things at Michigan, I know on par, but a lot of dental school is just like, here's your license, now you have a license to go learn. Now you license to go try, right? So like, if after an exam, you and I sat down and with our memory would remember some questions and go through that. We could, we could keep that and then we could pass it to the next year. But we would, and we could also use it for finals to prepare ourselves. So the first year I convinced the class, I'm gonna make a huge Google doc for every exam. Whatever you remember from the test, throw it up there. Okay. We rebuilt 95 % of the exams. Did you? Really? Yeah. The year I went to the faculty and said, you guys need to release the exams and give test material. And they're like, we don't want to remake the exams. I'm like, I'm just going to release these then. Mm-hmm. Future generations, let them all get an A. The next year, I was consulting at the teaching program for the faculty. You're like that guy that hacks into the, you know, the the FBI and instead of prosecuting you, they hire you, right? would, yeah, in that scenario. Yeah. And the other one with this oral pathology guy. So I get this, I get like a 69 and like, get this, this is second year where we started in August, it's November. I get this. I go to the professor. I think I got this question wrong on pentagus versus pentagoid. Sure. the the Nicole ski sign or whatever. Yeah, where did that? And like, Doc, I think I think I actually got this right. So I sent him Nicole ski's original dissertation in Russian. Okay, wow. You really went out there for that point. Yeah, yeah, like I needed this to like not have to remediate. Okay, well, Remember, I don't take outside information. Yeah. I'll let you know if you have to remediate in May. So you're the C student in dental school. Yeah. You're the C equals DDS, but you're a genius. you know, what is the book? A students work for C students and B students work for the government. So you're the C student that everybody's working for. Right. Because while they're all doing this rogue, this dogmatic regurgitation of information, you're like patenting a camera. You're creating a new, let's talk about that. Where is that and where's all the money from that? Do you have a big giant house up there in the mountains? No. But I'll just wrap this oral pathology thing up, because now I am listed as one of the editors in the oral pathology book. Wow, nice. I wasn't gonna wait. My anxiety was just too high. So I reach out to the authors of the textbook, who are the heads of oral pathology at UC Berkeley. I say, hey, like, I've looked at your book, it says one should be positive, one should be negative. However, when I'm looking at the primary literature should both be positive. And within 30 minutes, they responded like, ⁓ no, you found a typo. ⁓ no kidding. And I'm like, so I like I type up like, here's the scenario, guys. My professor is not gonna let me pass. They only go by what the authors of this textbook say, yada, yada, yada. And they write back this scathing thing like Nobody in education and medicine should be teaching that way. Everyone should know primary literature gets the highest scrutiny. Textbooks just have editors. And then I sent that out to the Listserv of the school. And how did that get received? Oh, I was up in the dean's office the next day and getting yelled at like, you have to go up to chain of command. It's like, guys. Well, the of command failed me. This isn't the military. You're Comcast in this scenario. You're not paying me. I had to escalate, I'm not gonna sit for like seven months waiting to know, am I gonna have to repay and remediate a year? Right, yeah, I'm with you. So you requested masks, we call them in the military, request masks. When your chain of command is utterly failing you and just completely making the wrong decisions and you've tried to be respectful and address it and they won't hear it and then you can just request, you know what, I wanna talk to your superior. Now, you there could be, you better be correct on that. You know, you're probably gonna get chewed out when you get up there. But then when you get excused, you know, behind closed doors, then hopefully the leader fixes it. You know? So the assistant dean comes and gets me from the class. Right. And I can see she's like, she's real stern and like, I really look up to this woman. And I would go in, tell her, she goes, you're gonna keep your head down. I'm just gonna tell you, I'm really proud of you. Good. Yeah, you did the right thing. You need to hold people accountable. I'm all about accountability. That's team culture comes in. That's where people miss about team culture. Accountability. I'm huge on perseverance, wisdom, strength, intelligence, honor, and courage. Integrity, for sure. All of that. Let's talk about your practice. Well, you said you want to know about the patent. Yeah, let's go there. Because again, I'm in dental school just trying to survive. Yeah. Right. Actually, literally, I mean, I was working a full time job to go in dental school at the same time. But I was just trying to survive and get through dental school. And you are inventing an internal scanner in 2016? It was 2013. 2013. When I wrote the provisional patent. OK. So what did you observe that caused you to do that? What happened? Dentures are arts and crafts from hell. And I hated packing cord. Okay. And so they had this dream lab with all these scanners that you see in the tour, but then they, you're not allowed to go in there as a student. Right. That's where the graduate students. So I took an impression of the key from one of the professors. So I started playing with it. one of professors sees this, he's like, I like that ingenuity. And so he was showing me how these inshore scanners work and Before dental school, I had worked for the Institute of Fluorescence working on novel diagnostics for the military and anthrax. So I was extremely familiar with light spectrums, lasers, spectrometers. were in Frederick, Maryland? No, I was at University of Maryland Biotech Institute. Gotcha. Right in the downtown. So I was like, I was working a mile from the school. Yeah. And oral scanners don't work well in moisture. Like you have your refractive index. So like you put like a pole into a body of water, you know how it looks like it's bent. When we're dealing with microns, that makes a difference. And so I'm observing like they're just blowing air in this constantly to try to get a better scan. Why don't we just hook that up to the scanner head? So I take it. duh, but I didn't think about it. You did. So like I go get like the PBS putty, stick the scanner head into it. Get that higher engineering crew that I worked with before. started making little widgets. All of our chairs had quick connects. And then boom, we had an intro oral scanner that expressed air. So it's 2013. So why haven't I seen it out there? What's going on? Why hasn't it been released? when it's probably largely on me because I just didn't know how to market things. I was just getting out of dental school. Sure. You're the innovator. I approach a lawyer. need a team. Dude, it was it's a ton to go through this. Sure. And so I started reaching out to different ⁓ entoral scanning companies and they would show interest. But I think what was the downside was they were in a large software phase. Think about like a regular camera. You have your raw image and then you have your Photoshop. They were in a large Photoshop phase and they just come out with the OmniCam and I'm showing that with the ⁓ or they just come out with like the prime scan and I'm showing with the OmniCam, I'm getting faster, more accurate scans and I'm getting a deeper focal length. With the older camera. With the older camera. Yeah. And at this point, Dense Supply Serona had like during that time period, they were constantly going through a whole new executive team. Was it just because of your error or did you rewrite software in some way? I did not write rewrite software. Okay, so just because of the error. That's it. It's just a cleaner. Just getting a cleaner image, quicker, cleaner. And that's what in all in all scanners are all about. How fast can they gather the data? Fewer images, you know, faster processing speed, right? Yeah. And like it was just it was cheap. Like. You can three print it yourself, you know, and you can attach it any of them. All of our chairs have a quick connect, so I just you would 3D print the air syringe just to connect over the head of your camera. Well, now you're making it too easy. Now everybody can go and just do it. Hit me up. I'll send you the STLs. Really? Yeah. All right. Right here, guys. DMS will give you the information. Yeah. Just modify it to your scanner head. I'll walk you through with the tubing you need. Are you doing it right now back there? I don't have it on this one. OK. But we'll set it up for the Lumina. OK. Because it has the replaceable heads. I'll slide that on. And then ⁓ I had one introrail scanning company bring me out, and we want to do a meeting. And last minute, they wouldn't sign the NDA. What do you think got in the way there? Their thing was we might already be doing this. After they talk to you, I'm sure they were. And so I just mind. And they're like, what are you doing? And the attorney was like, are you not talking? Cause we didn't sign that. I'm like, the guy's like, out. Yeah. You know, I've known, I've known quite a few innovators. mean, at least several innovators and hearing their stories when they go up the corporate chain, they're like, I'm going to go to the corporate group and I'm going to, you know, I'm going to be, you know, immortal and I'm going to make all this money. And then the corporation looks at it you kind of, don't you feel a little screwed? Like the, what I was told was, you know, we already invest heavily in within ourselves for R and D. We're not looking to, purchase R and D from outside of it. It makes our spend on our internal R and D look less useful. Well, that's one way to do it. But you know, Microsoft got big going out and finding little tweaks to hardware and software that they could just purchase and bring in. You know, so. It's such like a niche industry though. Right. So like, don't get me wrong, I would love to see it. It makes our lives easier to be able to load the tissue, blow it all up, have cleaner scans, to be able to like open your sulcus for a deep prep and see where the margins are. Cause you know, like when you scan, like you'd get your finger in it, you go back over and it removes it. thing. The tissue flaps, the tooth doesn't. So the software knows where to cut it out, right? So I think we need to look for this. I wish you got rich. I'd like to see you successful, my friend. I'd appreciate that. I hope somebody's going to see this and call you up and strike you Hit me up. Yeah. You're accepting money? You're accepting checks? All the money. It needs to be over seven feet now. Yeah. I know that's not true because I've talked to you about what a simple guy you are, doing amazing dentistry. ⁓ I don't want to turn this into a huge biography, but full arch. Where did you get the interest in full arch dental implants, even singles or full arch? Where does that come from? So I, I graduated when it, I thought I was going to do pediatrics, like gung ho on pediatrics. My mom's a special needs educator. She had fostered a ton of students. was all about laughing because that's where I thought I was going to go to start with. And now I'm like, I have no kids in my practice. Okay, go ahead. So I'm doing this and Gordon Christensen had gotten wind of this air scan device. He's like, you need to come out here. What's the barriers, why aren't you in the market? I'm like, can't get testing. I was still working with the University of Maryland and I just couldn't get access to the testing. He's like, come out here, you can use us. I'm like, damn. And then thinking about like, okay, I'm gonna have switch over to general dentistry. I haven't done a crown prep or endo in three years. And so I come out here and as I'm thinking about like, okay, I want to position myself in a company that's gonna make the best use of this. So Pacific Dental Services was huge on inch oral scanners. So start getting into general dentistry and I want to be able to do everything, which is stupid. No, that's why I didn't go into oral surgery. I want to be able to do everything. Like, yeah, I want to be able to quarterback this stuff and be knowledgeable and treatment plan it. And I couldn't treatment plan things if I didn't really understand it better. And once I get exposed to something, I really, really want to know more about it. And so I did some basic implant courses and then I joined up with Mark Costas down in Arizona. Okay, wow. You're really making the circuit Gordon Christianson and Mark Costas. Good for you. Like I'd already had enough general dentistry experience. like, well, before I do my own practice, I really want to know the metrics of this business. I've been listening to the dental partner podcast for years and then it's like, okay, well, he's looking for an associate. Not married. Do it. So I make the move down there and there it's an older community in Prescott, Arizona and Chino Valley and like implant pathways there and because of Mark's connections, I had gotten certain ends to different courses. I just started eating this up and it's COVID at this point. So like, I'm also living in an area where the average age is 63. So there's not like a lot of social life going on. Okay, COVID, you're a kid. I get it. You're not married. No. Yeah. And so like, I'm just doing every course I can find. What else are gonna do during COVID? Exactly. And for every course I go to, I more questions. And so I go to a full arch course finally. I learned the singles and then I have a patient that needs a full arch, so I want to go learn more. and like you learn their workflow, but then I always had the questions like, what if I did it like this? What I did it like that? And so I would take more and more courses and that's when I got kinda, I was surprised. It wasn't until like the second or third full arch course I actually heard about FP1. Yeah, I mean it's not the first thing you delve into. I wasn't even aware that, like I thought it was overdentures, all on four. Right. And that's the way that that's the way the market makes you think it is, right? Everything is FP3 or it's all from dentures to FP3. But you got in the FP1 world. I did. And what drew you to that? So Wade Pilling showed an FP1 in one of his fast tracks at Pathway. I remember we had just gone over bridges and they're talking about like tissue contouring and bone preservation. And now we're going to the FP3, we're just planning it down. And Wade shows this FP1 type stuff. This is really novel. Like, I really like this. because like the final result, like I couldn't even tell it was, it just looked amazing. You don't even know it's on implants. Exactly. Right. That's what I love about FP1. And so it's like, I need to know more about this. Just wrong. This was not a good ROI decision at that point. They're just like, I want go down this rabbit hole. Well, anything that you have a passion of doing is good ROI. Cause if you love doing it, you're probably going to make money at it. You're probably going to do it well. And then it's, and then I went to a simply implants with James Chaffin. Okay. And he's really big on FP1s and I just saw like, someone's been doing this for like 20 something years. Yeah. And he has 20 years of casework to show for it. Yeah. And so like, I just kind of went down the rabbit hole. And regardless, like it kind of broke me out of the paradigm from overdenture to FP3 to like, what do you need biologically? Like what's going on with your bite? How do we get here? What's your tissue level? Like what's your bone level like? Then ZBLC comes out. And now my mind's just like, not only were the concepts novel to me, but to see Linkovicus go and just be like, I don't know if the studies were done that well. I'm going to redo them. And at that point, was just like, Paul, everything I've been learning in VC, I've just been taken as, like, this is the standard. No, you have to question everything. You have to question everything. That's right. And so it really led me down this, like, because coming from biotech, We have like studies with thousands. Right. You're accustomed to using the scientific method. Yeah. Setting up studies, reading a study and questioning it. It's not gospel. It's not God's word. There's holes in this study. Right. Like I have offered patients discounts if they put me into their will that I get first access to their cadaver. Cause I want to core out the implants and see what that bone looks like. You know, I don't think that I think that you can get them to consent to that. Yeah. Yeah, that's for sure. Do you have anybody any takers right now? Maybe a couple but like That there's so many different little variables and I kind of just started diving into it and eventually kind of went off my own track and then So I was gonna do my own thing I had been working non-stop since dental school, didn't really know the West. I knew Salt Lake and I knew Arizona. And you're gonna make like a 20 year commitment somewhere. Yeah, hopefully. Right? If you're do good work. If you're gonna do good work. Right. And I do like a three day trip to be like, ⁓ this is the place I'm gonna live for the next 20 years. I just, couldn't make the decision. ⁓ okay. So I bought an RV, decided I'm gonna do a six month trip and spend a week at each of these 10 locations. God, it blows me away the freedom to be able to do that. It's amazing. Yeah, I've never been at a point like that in my life. That's my own fault. ⁓ yeah, I was wearing a big old alpaca poncho and jeans and ⁓ I went pretty nomad for a bit there. But it was also great because I'd have friends and I'd just go from airport to airport. A friend would fly into one airport, I'd pick them up, they'd be on that leg of the trip, drop them off at the next airport, another person would fly in. That's. So you're just a vagabond. You're just gypsy. I was just a gypsy. And then as I had licenses, lot of And you don't know where you're going to end up. Nope. You're just driving around. Yeah. California to Washington. Yep. All the way from New Mexico, all the way up to Washington, Oregon. And you ultimately, so what happened? You just ran out of money? It came close. So the three on six group, like I was already really big on the FP1 modality. I was really big on the concept of segmenting. And they were doing this and I had reached out and I like, hey, I think I have some techniques that could improve this. And Randy Roberts reaches back out and we start chatting. It was a good fit and they hire me and wind up settling here. So you worked there at that office for a year or two, three? Almost two and a half years. How long has it been since you were there? a little bit like a year and a half. here a year and a half, okay. And became one of the educators there, taught the other docs, go out and mentor the other docs, as well as see my own cases there. It really got me the reps that I needed to really delve in and Solidify my thought process had you taken the what do you call it the three on six class before that before you called Randy? No, I had you had not what did you offer that you can improve their system that he said come on, but what did you tell him so? Really bring in the ZB LC concepts of like the contouring where the placement needs to be ⁓ Going more of the screw retained because they were still doing cement retained and I had just taken a wide number of courses at that point of like we can do more than just implants like the grafting, the bone grafting, the tissue grafting. So it was 2003, 2023 and they still weren't using zero bone loss concept or screw retained arches? So I think they just started switching over. Okay. And it might have been 22. Yeah. But they'd have and whenever you have a business that gets large, changing protocols is painful because you have doctors all over and have been working for them. And I'm not criticizing. Not criticizing. I'm not criticizing. But you know, zero bone loss concept and we can go back a decade now, right? Screw retain, full arches. mean, it was 2011 or 12 when the literature was pretty much unanimous. Like they should all be screwed retained. Right, mean, so it's 2023 and you're just updating their systems and their protocols. Kind of, Basically, like hey, know, what you're doing is working. But there's ways to improve. But there's ways, yeah. Yeah. Right. And then also doing some things with the training in terms of getting the licenses put under our names so that doctors could come out with that, have them do all the licensing, do a live surgery. kind of working with it, going through some more complications, doing model complications. And I'm just really passionate about education and trying to delve in because we only have a handful of days to get you up to an FP1 level. Right. That's pretty complicated task FP1. mean, it's, you know, FP3, it's very complicated. But I mean, if we get you to follow the cookbook, you know, we can get you there. FP1 could take a lot more skill. mean, there's just a lot of new ones and bone scalloping and root banking and socket shielding and everything, you know, just It can take, it can be a lot more for a younger doctor. It is. And like you can see these ads on Instagram or anything and like sign up. And I think we had a really, really strong education program, but it's just a lot to get done in four days. Sure. Do you ever think about just breaking it up into two classes or two, two, you know, or a continuum, two or three? I have. Yeah. You're going to, you're, you, are you looking at education in the future? Yeah. So Right now, mostly what I do is mentorships. And this is just a different perspective of, yeah, it's really nice when can stack a bunch of people into a classroom and charge tens of thousands. That doesn't really happen, by the way, often. yeah, it can. You can have a lucky weekend. Yeah, you're talking like every now and then you can pack that. Yeah. And we've kept them small. It was me and Logan Locke who's also an unbelievable both him and Randy both unbelievably good FP one surgeons Logan I did the trainings and and Randy would teach complications and I think we put together like hell of a good course ⁓ I'm sure they still run a great course now One thing I definitely wanted to kind of change up was people are coming from different experiences and I really liked that one-on-one interaction. And so I started doing more and more mentoring where like, okay, doc, where are you at? What do you want to achieve? Okay, so to do that, we're gonna need to make sure you know how to do socket. We need to make sure that you know how to do bridge augmentation. We need to make sure that you're comfortable with sinus lifts, both vertical and lateral. We're gonna do tissue contouring and we gotta go through some prosthetics. And so we're gonna break this up over the course of the year. We're gonna get you some cases. I'm gonna kinda teach you how to treatment plan them. We're gonna treatment plan them together. And then I'll come out and I'm gonna chair side with you. We're gonna get through these cases. when it's, cause when you go to these CEs, they're phenomenal and I love them. And that's where everyone should start. But when it's your own patient in your own office, it's different. Also, when you're coming to a course, I'm teaching on my equipment with my staff. And now you need to go back home and teach what you just learned to your team. Right. But don't you find out that when you get to that office, they don't have the right instrumentation armamentarium set up. So we go through that ahead of time. Yeah. But this way you get the education and the integration. Right. Because like how many times have we had students fail or really run into issues? because they go to this course, get great confidence, they come home and blows up in their face. And mostly it's a logistics issue. And now they never wanna do the procedure again. And there's nobody there to help them when it blows up. now they're scared. What was that? And like, I love that even when we were doing it with this group, except for one or two docs, every doc. was doing the cases within six months. So the value in the education must have been there. Yeah, like making sure. And probably had mentorship support afterwards. ⁓ heck yeah, like we were planning their cases with them. That was part of the deal. And we always encourage like take the course for the first surgeries, try to get two of them back to back, like one day, two day, and have us come out and we will get you through these first ones. Because if you... I was really big on following these different CEs. And one of the questions I'd always ask is, what percent of your students are doing these procedures within six months? And most don't have that information. And that was one of most important things to me. was like, I wanna make sure you're getting your money's worth. Don't just come for entertainment. ⁓ It's really expensive. But they have to start somewhere. They have to start somewhere. You know, when I have somebody just show up in my office for a one-on-one, and I've never met them before, chances are all of their questions are just so dang basic. They should have come to the two-day course first, and then That's what saying. Start with the basic courses. Get the basic understanding down so we're speaking the same language. And then come back, or I'll go out there. Exactly. also, doing these mentorships one-on-one, like, you build up not just the doctor but the team. And now the entire team sees, wow, this is so great. And they all become advocates. Well, no doctor is going to be able to implement anything that they didn't bring their team to the training for. And this goes with any CE. Even if you're just going to a symposium to listen to a lecture, you can't leave your staff at home, go to the symposium and come back and be like, ⁓ my god, sit down. We've got a 45 minute lunch. I've got 30 pages of notes on how we're going to our practice. And everyone's like, what are you talking about? So yeah, like have to come like I would I would come to the office. Yeah, I have the assistant training part I have the doctor training part. I have the front desk training part of like, okay Here's the post ops. You're gonna be calling about here's the common questions are gonna be having Here's the different prescriptions. I'm usually getting Let's put this in your formulary Assistance what equipment do we need? How big is your operatory do we need to have everything out at once or do we need to have our surgical stuff out? And then at this point, take that away. Now the restorative stuff comes out. Yeah. The workflow, the systems. Yeah. At Full Implant Choice, this sort of tags on with the Atlantic Implant Institute, but we have the Full Implant Experience at Full Implant Choice. And you can just come bring your team and spend three days with our, just watch our office, watch our systems. It's like, you have to take the business class to get the didactics on the business and understand things, but you also need to come and watch it. Yeah, you have to see in motion. When you see our front desk and our sales team doing this and you bring your sales people and they sit with our sales people and you bring your front desk, you sit with our front desk and all of a sudden you see all the systems that are in play, then the light bulb goes off. It's, seeing that click I think is like the most rewarding thing. Oh yeah. I love doing surgery, but. I think I'm usually more excited for the result of the other doctor than like, of course he's exhausted. Like it's one of those first two. I'm just like, yeah, you're doing it. Yeah. I was sitting in the hospital yesterday. One of my alumni texted me his first two pterygoids and it was like right on like good man. You know, nice. It was great. And like you're empowering, you're empowering other doctors to do a higher level of care beyond what they were currently able to do. And It gives me a huge amount of pride to like... I feel like I'm able to help patients be on my own hands. Of course. I'm able to help these doctors become reinvigorate or even more invested in. I'm like, this is my hobby as well. Like I love this stuff. Right. Well, me too. I love, I love educating. think similarly for me got to a point where, you know, I'm just cranking out a new patient every day. I'm helping out this one patient, this one patient, one patient. And my, ⁓ my, the amount of impact I can make is linear. Exactly. I myself, and then people are like, you should teach this. And then I'm like, well, if I taught 20 people to do this, now it's a little, we're going to curve, right? Or 200 people. Now, you know, because how many people can we realistically treat in a lifetime? Exactly. I mean, a few thousand from start to finish, maybe five. I mean, because that's a big number. ⁓ it's huge. Yeah. I mean, know oral surgeons and friends of mine, they're like, ⁓ I've treated 12,000 patients. Yeah, but you just put in the implants. Yeah, exactly. You know, I'm talking about like start to finish. I mean, I can only impact 5000 lives on this huge. Now, I mean, I don't take it lightly because if you impact one person's life, you know, you've done something on this earth. Right. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, if we can train 5,000 doctors to do this, that's amazing Like you can train 5,000 doctors do this you're helping 50,000 patients, right? He's yeah way more than that and if they can try anything I can count to 32 So you have come a long way in a short time You know, you've got a great sense of wisdom piece about you probably cuz you're an innovator and a thinker. No, he's you're pretty good at business, too Yeah, yeah, let's talk about business you go down. So wait you were with the cost of script Yeah. Right. You were a mentor there. I was not a mentor. Oh, I was an associate. Oh, I was mentoring there. No, no, I wasn't mentoring. I got what you learned. Mark has an amazing way of breaking things down into digestible pieces. Now, they have so much literature out there, and they put together all these different manuals. And I think I wasn't able to wrap my head around just about everything, but the formularies, getting the templates set up, really One of the best things I learned from working with Mark was set up the infrastructure. If you mess up, if you don't get the infrastructure set up, you're always going to be chasing it. Right. 100%. And so when I broke off to do my own thing, before just rushing in and just starting getting patients, it's like, okay, I need to build an infrastructure. Sure, need a manual. Yeah. We have to write down how we're do things. Yeah, exactly. And when you're constantly innovating different things, it's really hard to that manual up to date. Yeah, but having at least something written down is better than nothing. ⁓ yeah, for sure. I have an SOP manual, I've written it myself. And I could have written a page yesterday or six months ago. And if I look back at it, there's something I want to add to it. Yeah. But at least we had a starting point. you met Dr. Burr. Yeah, Adam Burr. He is so structurally focused and organized that he brings systemization to the chaos in my head sometimes. And so Whereas I'll come up with an SOP that's just super complex. He helps break it down into a more realistic, achievable thing. Because you can't write an SOP for every single little thing. No, there's no way. But I do. That's the problem. And then I make the screen videos of like, here's how I want you to process it. And no one's going to watch it. So here's the thing. I will, too. I will write a three page SOP on how to unlock the front door. Yeah. OK, but who's going to read it? So you always have to dumb it down to the one page bullet point workflow, because as great as your staff is, you're going to lose their attention after four bullet points. Yeah, I'll lose my own attention. Yeah, for sure. So you can't get lost in the minutiae. you want to plan it out, obviously, but you want to make sure that they're trained on it and follow it. The lowest common denominator, I have this phrase, the lowest common denominator, I talk about it all the time. Like when I thought about technology, there's great technology out there. Some of it, the software is so complicated or it just takes up so much memory or the computer bogs down or whatever. I've got staff, half the staff can't figure it out. I'm not, can't buy it. If it's, even if it's better technology, because I need my lowest common denominator to be able to use it. I mean, it's definitely like, for instance, the, ⁓ the Yomi. Right. Perfect example. In 10 years, I expect the majority of us will probably have something. Right now the- bolting it in, taking the CBCT, then putting them out. For me, that's not happening. And Yomi knows some of you guys. I know some of you guys that used to be on the board there. ⁓ I was approached to push Yomi, and I'm with you. think something like that in 10 years, we should all have robots. But for that price point, with that kind of workflow, I could not. expect I could not I didn't not want to be responsible for my alumni or my students to have to pick up that price tag item and have to go through that workflow. It was just too much too cumbersome. It is in my opinion in my opinion. Okay, it's not official scientific literature. Don't write. No, I think it's think it's phenomenal technology. I think if you have the right workflow for it, it works great. And and I was Yeah, and I'm saying I'm probably going that route once like we had But like if we all give me like the curve linear motions in it, so I could do like all the scalloping and everything. We might be in a whole different discussion about this. Well, know, X, X, X, X, X, X, X, X, X, X, X, X, X, X, X, X, X, X, X, X, X, X, X, X, X, X, X, X, Do you have to like bolt something in and take a CBCT and then put them down? No, no. I'll tell you what happens. I don't want to have to know you like I hate I hate numbing patients like I want the anesthesiologist to put you down. No, my anesthesiologist puts him to sleep and in the 10 minutes it takes him to induce the patient. I can plan the upper and lower arches and then you know my lab and my team, my systems, everything's already pre-aligned in the software and all I do is go in and I'm looking at the wax up the digital wax up. And so I can plan prosthetics and MUA and everything. And I can do it in 10 minutes. And then throat pack. And I start aligning the points. ⁓ if it's not perfect, I just paint and map. And then ⁓ just brings it all together. And we're done in six minutes, eight minutes, 10 minutes. And it's like that easy. Can you do curved linear scalloping? They can't. Well, I don't use the feature. they, ⁓ mean, because I've been doing this freehand for so long ⁓ I just use it to place the implants and maybe. Here's the best thing about dynamic guided surgery is the MUA position. It's like you can do an FP1 on it, right? So now instead of my FP3, buckling will bridge being 12 millimeters thick to grab the palatal MUA over here. Now everything is just like, bam, like 10, like all the way around, or like eight or 10. We're not reaching out to get that one awkward MUA. And I tell them all the time, you sell it as a surgical tool. but it's a prosthetic tool for me. I can get my implants to stick, but now my MUAs are perfect. So, you know, but it's all about what we got in the subject because the technology has to be, you know, the best bang for the buck and it can't be like extraordinarily complex or super expensive. I'm also trying to like show, and kind of like the model of this office. I don't want people who are watching me and like, I want to do like what he does. Yeah. And just be like, okay, yeah, it's a hundred thousand dollar price tag. to get into this game. It has to be reasonable. Yeah. And so I also was really interested in getting more and more involved in the Stackable Guide system and seeing what can I really create from that? Right. Great system. You showed me in the back, you were making guides for a doctor in New York City who's doing an FP1. Yup. Your guides look amazing. And so your lab is open to outsource, by the way. Yeah. Yeah. Is that something you do mostly with your old students? Mentors? Mentees? I mean, most of them who now utilize it are mentees. Yeah. but they didn't all come as former students. some are implant residents with the JU program. Some are docs I've met at different symposiums. ⁓ Some are friends of docs that use my system. what I made this, so when I wanted to do this, what we were working with before was a toothpaste guide and get your implants in the right position. All great. However, if any of the teeth are loose or you got to extract teeth and bridges come off and now maybe your guy's not seating. So I kind of wanted to go to a stackable system, but once you were stackable, well now what other type of guides do I want to put on this thing? Do I want to do a 3D scalloping guide? Do I want to do terry guides on it? Do I want to do a bone grafting augmentation guide that gives that pre plans the exact amount that you need and gives you a little shelf to pack it into. And in looking for like, okay, What labs can do? So I'm like looking at Ro, I'm like, I cannot afford $6,000 per case for a guide. Yeah, love you guys over there by the way. That's a lot of money. Love you guys a ton. In Salt Lake, it's extremely price conscious area. Well, I think the country's that way. Everyone says that about their own reach. We're all getting a squeeze. We are. You know, I mean, because there's a lot of competitors out there, even though I believe nobody competes with me but me, but the public sees multiple of me. They don't know that I'm any different. Yeah. And a lot of times it comes down to price. It does. Right. And you've got to figure out ways to cut expenses, which you've done a great job in this office, by the way. How many employees do you have? Two. I actually just rent it from the other doctor. I'm going to quit and work for this guy. So like, my collections are like 68 percent take home. You should be teaching business. That's tremendous. you don't because because like when you start one of these practices, right? Whether you buy a huge facility or not for the first year, if you're not doing the exact same thing that the previous doctor did, which almost no one's doing that, like you're coming in with your own ideas, you're coming in with maybe a new implant system. Maybe you're going photogrammetry, right? You're going to have turnover. you have to crawl for the first year. I did not want to be chasing the overhead. So let me build up the systems. Let me do it with low overhead and let me really refine this into a scalable system. Right. So you were wise to just come in and just kind of come in slow and not start flipping over chairs and switching everything up. I've seen a lot of doctors make that mistake. They take the time to value a practice and work it up and buy it. And as soon as they open the doors, they repaint and they change the policies and everything on day one. I did not do that. No. I set my old office the way it was for about five years. And I've seen docs who are like, they know enough to not change it. But you can see it's just driving. It's just eating them up inside of them. like, if you guys don't perio chart, I swear to God. I will burn this building to the ground. We have the same hygienist. So you've made your own systems, saving money. What's the best way for doctors to cut their overhead? What are their key mistakes? Every person in an organization, you need to know what the mission statement is. You need to know the core value set is. Like, I know that sounds really, really like... I'm with you. And everyone... Like, I'm a really big fan of the book, Traction by Geno Wickman. Great book. Yeah. And so everyone has rocks. Like, if you have an employee that you don't really know what they do, that's an issue. For sure. Yeah. And you may hire someone to do one job and realize quickly that they have a more aptitude to do something else. Yeah. And it's your responsibility to move them. Yeah. And you got to stay flexible to that. And I outsource like a lot. So all of the designers I utilize are other implant surgeons. Right. Out of country. Yep. Yeah. And the head of that lab at Dent Select, props to you guys. Amazing. Like It's run by Dr. Mo Tohoon, who was the clinical director and head of R &D of 360 imaging or imaging 360. And this man can take the stupidest sketches that I do and then boom, they're realized on a computer screen. You would talk about design? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Like if I want to do a Terry guy that has a deep key that like the key actually goes in like 22 millimeters. So I changed my lever point. We'll get it done. And then with with a digital dental fusion in South Korea, now they're a phenomenal lab, but they also full fabrication facility. If I need special types of burrs, they'll get it done. So you save money out overhead with employees and systems in here and just outsourcing it outside, right? And cutting down on an enormous amount of employee. Workload let's just say workload and cost also like when and where's your square footage to put all that anyway exactly right like we We have expensive scanners. We have yeah, like I want to put the money into things that are actually gonna give an ROI to the patient So quality scanners quality equipment quality graphs don't cut corners on your cements like Don't double book make sure you have time for the I only see like two or three patients a day like three or four days a week I thought I was seeing very few patients, but we have a big we have a big full arch, you know, we have systems We're tiny here man. Yeah, we're systems like everyone just has my cell phone if You have an issue give me a ring. Yeah, I think that's huge. We were talking about that before You know, I won't get into it, but you know personal experience, but you you have to be available to your patients Always have to be available your patients My QR code for like my cell phone It's just right on there. Every patient gets it. You just pull out your phone and scan this. Yeah, save it. Yeah. We make it very accessible, but not that accessible, but we definitely they get the number. Yeah. They have to go to get a hold of you. They have to. If you have a complication and you're not answering your phone, I mean, this is where, you know, this is where legal problems start. Yeah. Right. Legal problems start when patients are dissatisfied and that's an emotional feel for them. Like one thing I go through all the consults with. whether it's revision, we're starting through. We'll go through all of our clinical things. You have bone, med history. And one of the things I tell every patient is, this is gonna probably bite me in the butt one day, but. For us to be able to work together, I need you to be comfortable enough that if something feels off to you at 8 p.m. on a Tuesday, you give me a call. It's so much easier for me to address it early than for you to just sit and suffer until it becomes too problematic. yeah, yeah. You need to be accessible. And I've done a lot of work in legal consulting. Yeah. And... there are some key points where every doctor gets into trouble. But one that's almost unanimous or ubiquitous is when they're not available to, for the patient to read some of the things go wrong. And then the patient gets, that's the ticket. They get the receptionist and the receptionist give them the run around for three weeks or three months or a year. And the doctor is unaware or maybe they were aware, but they just didn't make themselves available. And that's where they really get in the hot. This is where they start looking at other opinions, right? So Salt Lake, there's a lot of full art to Salt Lake. You're saying it's a very cosmetic driven market. Hugely cosmetic driven market. The Three on Six did an amazing job bringing FP1 to the patient's awareness and knowledge. so patients will come in and ask for an FP1. And in my work doing segmental FP1s and looking at the literature, Rather than doing... three two implant bridges on MUAs. So with the posteriors, they're end to end like that. And MICP, great. But anything that's off that straight line between the two MUAs, there's no lateral resistance. So running this through an ⁓ elemental analysis software, tripoding it made more sense. So like if you're doing lateral. That was a lot more of a stable thing. And also like when we were doing. This is on MUAs. On MUAs. Okay. And then for the anterior bridge, if I'm just doing seven to 10, I have you in class one inclusion, that's always gonna be a rotational force. And we have no AP spread on that. So you are among the philosophy of the philosophy that ⁓ you're using MUA's for unilateral restorations, just for segments. I was under the impression you were going implant level on the 3 on 6. I think they've now gone to TRI. Right. So I guess that is implant level because it's a buttonless system. Yeah. I love MUA's. Right. Well, they're easy to restore. They're easy to restore and also like In terms of what we're doing now, and we call it FPX. FP1, 2, and 3. So with the literature that's come out, with the deep conical connection implants, we're seeing ourselves placing these deeper and deeper and deeper. And then using an MUA to bring it up to the tissue level. What I've started doing more and for my FP1s is rather than placing a millimeter two below the bone line, I'm trying to think ahead. What happens if this patient goes through chemo in 10 years? What happens if they have some failures and get some recession? If I use the shortest MUA. now we're gonna have threads exposed. So we're placing, for these FP1s, we're placing more in a FP2, FP3 position of the implant and then bringing it up to the FP1 position with the MUA. And because we have these deep conical connection implants with the most minimal micro motion, I mean, you see this with SIN and Neodent. Right. Yeah. So you're going to sub-crestal 2, 3, 4 millimeters, bringing it up with a taller MUA, 3, 5, 4, 5, something like that. Yeah. Planning for almost planning for failure and then you can drop. I'm planning for life. Yeah. Right? Like is it successful to do it short? Yeah. But what happens if, and I've dealt with these, patient has cancer, patient goes through some type of medical complication. Right. Now we have threads exposed. Revising those cases on a medically compromised patient is a nightmare. Their healing's already worse off. So if I built this backup and now I can just take the prosthetic out. Swap out the abutments for shorter ones make a new prosthetic and you're on your way. Yeah Time will tell you know if that if that scenario will be available It's always hard working on somebody who's gotten older or gotten medically compromised or whatnot ⁓ for sure in any type of treatment modality, but if you can avoid yeah having to work on them Yeah I think there's very definitely a biologic width over the top of the implant to the MUA You know top the input from the adplot to the MUA platform So we're talking about the crestal connective tissue and you need the 1.5 millimeters. know going with shorter MUA, to your point of not using short MUAs. Yes. You I don't want to use a short MUA and compress close to the bone. You don't want it, you need to be a millimeter and a half off the bone. Always. Yeah I'm gonna agree with you on that. Do you think though that the MUA has been, you know original usage of the MUA was for cross-arch. Yes. Restorations for full cross-arch restorations. And all the early studies and indications were for cross-arch indications. Do you feel ever nervous about just doing a unilateral segment or a front segment on a couple of multi-unit abutments? I've been doing them for a while and they've worked. However, we always try to optimize and improve. Are you familiar with the new AXA abutments by Megagen? I've not personally worked with them, but I've seen them. I've started playing with these and I mean for years I've been looking for a MUA style for a single implant with anti-rotational that screw retained. So like when they came out with this so that nub on the MUA is 2.2 millimeters tall, this is four. Now I have feral. Now I've moved that lever arm off of the screw into the abutment screw. So have Farrell for it to not rotate, not have any micro motion, not dislodge. Yeah, like if I'm doing a bridge, I'm not gonna use the anti-rotational aspect to it. But it's essentially like using more of a custom abutment or tall tie base in that sense. Let's go to the three on six for a second. This is a patented process, is that right? Not patented, it's a trademarked process. trademark process. ⁓ So they have the term three on six and I believe they also have four on eight. Okay. Also trademarked. And these are when you do it initially it's going to be a full arch. You're placing generally a first molar K9 lateral lateral K9 first molar. Full arch temp. Then the second temps are segmental 3D printed. kind of a prototype of the file and we take them to finals. So any problem with you advertising that coming from the three on six camp or? I don't think I'm allowed to actually say I do three on sixes. I don't advertise I do three on sixes. But I mean, it's full mouth implant bridge. Like it's a catchy term. Yeah. And could like. They do a solid job of marketing. It's a great marketing. Hey, no, you guys do a great job. Randy, I've never met you. We talked on Facebook a few times here and there. Yeah, solid guy. In the business thought process between him and his brother, was solid and they have a catchy term. And their marketing has really brought awareness to FP1. I'm not sure if we got it off the top with Randy. I invited him to come on the pod. haven't heard from him really much. He's busy guy. I don't know where one of us just dropped the ball. But I think there was a Facebook post a couple of years ago and he said, we invented this protocol, you know, and I'm like, I was like, I think I commented. said, partner, my mentor, we, I remember seeing that post. were doing stuff like this in 2000, whatever. And I didn't take any pictures, you know, but yeah, doing a bridge here, bridge here, bridge here, you know, I won't put kudos to you though. The marketing is great, you know? It's a, sort of, you know, not to disrespect, but I sort of like the company that says we have the trademark and patent on a custom patient specific implant. And I'm like, what was 1952? I think they've been around since then. I like I can show it to you in, ⁓ what's the guy's name? 1985 or at the book gave FB one, two and three Carl Mish Carl. Yeah. Like it's in there. It's in there. It's in there. Yeah. And then like a vacation. I didn't mean to disrespect you in any way, but it's like there's elders who have come before us who have done this stuff in the past. They didn't put a name to it. The marketing is great. I've had people in Virginia, a few, and they're like, I don't know if I'm going to go with you or go with this three on six guy out in Utah. And I'm like, we're in Virginia and you're hearing about it. That's great. It's good education. It's like, know, patients, if we can preserve bone. And the thing is like The FP3 was developed for denture-based patients that didn't have bone. This is fairly atrophic. And then for whatever reason in the industry, that just became the standard. And if I'm of the belief that you do what that patient needs. And I think that's where we're kind of going in dentistry is over the next 10 years. we're going to see a lot more customizable things for that patient. Patient specific. getting a broad range of training, think that's what it comes down to. know, anybody who says, I've never met a patient that I couldn't do a three on six on, right? Or I've never met a patient that I couldn't do that. I've never met a patient that I couldn't do mini implants. Right? I mean, cause I know a doctor who said that once and he was a national educator. I've never met a patient who couldn't get many implants. Like what did you treat three people? You know, like they were all the right indication. I mean dogmatically against dogmas. Yeah, me too. For sure. In my practice, I mean, if you had five patients walk through the door, you know, one's gonna need an FP one and one's gonna need an FP three and one's gonna need a remote anchorage and one of them is gonna save all their teeth and one is gonna have to be an overdenture. Yeah. You know, fix isn't gonna work. Right. Like I do over dentures. I do FP three. I do FP one. Like it's It's what the patient requires. Now what I'm seeing a lot more of, and this is also like a selection bias because most of my work that's been put out there has been FP1 work. patients looking for that are kind of coming in. Are you like back in 2000? Between 2000 and 2015, we saw an 8x increase in implant utilization. We don't have an NIH study showing where we're at now, but 20 years ago, implants were still thought of as like your last ditch option. You're still getting your endo, you're still going apico, now we're doing implants. Now, the patient's awareness of implants is much higher. They also, I find a lot of patients have, I guess, I don't know, who termed it dental fatigue. ⁓ think like, okay, well, I got these fillings, I got these crowns, I got my endos. Every year I go in, it's another crown, it's another retreat. And they're just done. And I do a great informed consent. When I do my consult, I list all the teeth that are bombed out, all the pathologies. what teeth are potentially salvageable. So those are teeth with minimal restorations, no active perio, good prosthetic position. And I list out which teeth are these. And then I go through, okay, if we were going to preserve these teeth, how would that change the treatment plan? How many more appointments would that require? The difference in the cost and the difference in the discomfort. And I present both of these to the patient. I want you to keep your teeth. I actually will not charge more for the restorative preservation one, because I do not want to encourage you to pull your teeth just on the financial thing. Okay, not very Nobel. And Like a lot of patients are just done. And there are patients where I've said, I've said like, yeah, you you're missing one tooth, dude. There's no way we're doing a full arch. Right. Yeah. But like, I have this one guy right now, who got jumped. And he was carjacked, they busted out his back teeth and kicked him the mouth. And he's been going through victims advocates for two years. Or a little bit more than that. And everything has super erupted or grossly decayed out. Yeah. Now it needs to be pulled. ⁓ yeah, I've learned a couple of good things about you, right? For being a young doctor, you know, still, ⁓ the message that I want to make sure that people hear is one, how you, you treat people well walked in here. There was a book up there. ⁓ and it was, we treat, ⁓ people, not patients. I had to look in there because I trademarked the phrase in 2007, we treat people not teeth. And I went, um, and several variations of that. And I was like, that title looks a lot like my trademark, but I don't care. I'm not going after the guy. Um, it's probably a very good book, but that's something that a principle of yours. We treat people, not teeth. We treat people, not patients. You treat people to be treated like people with dignity and respect. Um, two, you have a big open mind. Like you're, you're willing to, Absorb information dissect it think how can we do this better, know realize that You know, it's not always your way of the highway that there's multiple ways to to skin the cat as they say absolutely and three What I heard from you is that when you got started you were willing to move and seek mentorship before fame and money. ⁓ yeah Yeah, that's incredible to me. I get that infrastructure. I feel like I Hear more and more, you know people just get out of school. They want to make money They want to be Instagram famous. They want to do implants, you know, to do more implants. And you're like, man, I got in a van and I went to Salt Lake City because some guy named Christiansen who, you know, said, come on out. No, I'm kidding. But, then you're down there. off though. No, but for real, you know, you're willing to like have faith in God, go out. We didn't even talk about God, but I assume, you know, you're just going to go out and, you know, just trust. Just trust the universe, trust the system, listen and Also, you make it work. Once you commit to a plan, you execute. So when you commit to going out, you go out there, you're gonna rock and roll. And that's one of the reasons that I'm so big on these guides is it allows me to do, just in the process of doing like, the flap guide, the seating guide, the bone reduction guide, the osteotomy guide, the scalloping guides, the pre-made temps that are positioned with the CEJ already going through that process. I don't wanna like, I don't wanna say like too highly. I doubt other people think this much about these cases. There's a tremendous benefit to going into guides. ⁓ Just the mental exercise of going through it. know because I'm about ready to publish some stuff based on my mental exercises from the last 23 years of planning my own cases, doing my own guides, printing my own guides, learning from my mistakes. I've got some... I've got some math involved in the face and the teeth in my head that I'm getting ready to publish. it's painting by the numbers. can paint a picture right now. But I remember when I was a kid, my mom gave me paintings and it was like, the red goes in all the threes. The blue goes in all the twos. And eventually you don't need the numbers. The problem is my mom did the same as when we found out was color blind. ⁓ That's a whole other problem. Maybe we should work on a solution to that. But the guides are like painting by the numbers. You know, when you're young and when you're going on your way, you have this roadmap of how to get there. For those that you don't know, a map is something that was on paper. No, just kidding. But you have this way of learning how to get there so that, you know, one day you can just put the map aside and just drive. You know, I don't expect anybody to come in the Institute and just be able to freehand a full arch like I could. But I learned how to paint by the numbers with guides. Exactly. But like even at like the more advanced level, right, like let's say the patient has significant crowning on the upper, right? Right. And the midline is off by two and half millimeters and it's slightly at a can, occlusal plane is also canted. Once you pull all that, exactly where does your lateral need to be to come up with an exact right merges position? Like, can you put a pin in the nasal palatine and measure? Sure. But just like we were just talking about, When I'm planning, I'm in this open, curious mind. Let's move this over here, let's move this over. ⁓ how will that look? How will that change the wax up? Having the guide and everything and going through this, when I go into surgery, I'm not curious anymore. We need to get this done, we're gonna move efficiently. You've already done the procedure in your mind digitally. You either plan to fail or you've had a plan. Yeah, exactly. People can get in touch with you? Yeah. Let me, over an hour, why don't we tell people how to get in touch with you and utilize your lab services, if there's any mentorship and things you want to do. Yep, we offer mentorship. How do they get in touch with you? The lab is at fpxsmiles.com. My practice is yourwisedental.com. I'm Wise Dental Solutions. Wise. Weissenberg. Yeah, but I didn't spell it W E I S. I didn't have the ego for that one. I was gonna say nobody's gonna find it. Yeah, no one will fly that like you ISE. Yeah. Okay. And yeah, like if you're looking as a patient for a place that's going to take care of you, be honest, transparent and give you the best bang for your buck for the most long term thought through process. Let me know. And if you're looking to do this type of work, please reach out to the lab. Now we get the mentorship. but you'll also get a tangible product. Like I was just showing you the other day, I do immediate implant with immediate load in 45 minutes. don't, rather than like, you know, can place the implant, scan it, design, wait for the print. No, I just make a wing temp that sits on the other two teeth and you just do a rapid pickup. Yeah, very nice. I think that if you put this on your website, I'm gonna say I've met this guy a couple of times and I think he's genuine and I think you will take good care of patients So I think you should probably use this for marketing and advertising. I appreciate that I want to thank you for letting me see inside your operation Give me a little bit of hospitality here in Salt Lake. I a lot from you Yeah, and when you first reached out, I even know what this was about like why you guys just come stay with me Yeah, yeah. Well, she's got a little bit more going on. I had no idea what this area like just if you're ever in town Give me a call. We have guest rooms. I will say this about Salt Lake. Since I've been here, my first time at Salt Lake, everybody has been very nice in Salt Lake. This is a great community. We've really enjoyed our time here this last week and I'm looking forward to the next three weeks. mean, one of the best hospitals I've been to up there at St. Mark's. The U, St. Mark's, like this area, we're actually not allowed to talk about how good Salt Lake is because we're not. Too many people already. You don't want people to come here. Yeah. Yeah. Don't change it. I mean, I'm from Baltimore. I came out here and realized this is what life's like without humidity. I'm never leaving. Amen. Yeah. Well, I'll be heading back that way soon. Thank you so much for having me on, buddy. Thank you for being here. Good luck to you. I'm glad I had a chance to spend the afternoon with you. Hey, rest of you guys, keep your head straight, OK? You got to go all in with All On X if you're going to go all in, because there's a lot to learn. So can't your toe in it. need anything, DM us and we'll give you some advice. But thanks for watching.