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The elite lab, trusted by full-arch surgeons, ⁓ prosthodontists, and digital forward practices ⁓ internationally. JB specializes in precision full-arch zirconia, photogrammetry workflows, and fast turnaround times that don't sacrifice quality. ⁓ JB delivers a truly digital workflow powered their... online portal for easy case uploads, real-time tracking, and fast streamlined communication. ⁓ JBDentalLab.com for quality, ⁓ full support. Tell them that the All-In All-Index Pod sent you. If you're looking for a lab that understands immediate load, passive fit, and the demands of modern all-on-x dentistry, then JB Dental Lab is redefining what a full arch parter can be. Learn more at JBDentalLab.com. Jumoke Adedoyin: why we got into dentistry right? Like I didn't even know I was gonna get into dentistry. Like honestly my dad wanted me to be an accountant. ⁓ Adam Hogan, DDS: Yeah. Okay, interesting. Jumoke Adedoyin: I know, he's like, okay. But I just, I like to make people smile. And so when I got into dentistry, that's what I wanted to do. But I realized very early on that I enjoyed surgeries and I did not like, endo was not my favorite class. Like, so I knew for sure I was not going to ever be an endodontist, like never. And then, you know, there was talks about maybe you do ortho, you know, because it's great. I was like, I would be bored. Like I would be so Adam Hogan, DDS: Mm-hmm. Jumoke Adedoyin: so just sitting there. So I knew that was gone. ⁓ And I just kind of had a natural knack for surgeries, right? And so that was it. And then I ended up at like affordable and affordable dentures, which all you do is dentures. So I love removals. I was like, okay, this would work. But then I started seeing these patients that were just always angry with their lower dentures, like in, in almost drove me crazy. And that was around the same time that affordable Adam Hogan, DDS: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Jumoke Adedoyin: to step into implant dentistry. So for me, I was like, okay, I'm gonna try it. I'm gonna see if I love it. And of course I absolutely fell in love with it. Not just because of the technical part, but because I could see the difference in those patients, right? They're always the grouchy ones. And people always like, denture patients are grouchy. I'm like, if you didn't have teeth and you had to like gum everything, wouldn't you be grouchy? Like it's just what happens, right? Yeah. Adam Hogan, DDS: Mm-hmm. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. And you gotta, you gotta give people a little bit of grace. So what comes in people being grouchy comes into my mind when you know, you get a new consultation and sometimes your ⁓ coordinator or your lifestyle, call them lifestyle team members or people call them salespeople too, but they'll come to you and they'll be like, ⁓ I got somebody here and they're really not in good mood and they're grouchy and it's kind of like difficult to talk to them. And you know, they're like, ⁓ you know, and I'm, always go in and I say, hold on a second. Let's let me just kind of go in and You know, you, you gotta understand one, they don't love the dentist. They're have high anxiety. They don't want to be there. They probably have bad stories too. You know, A lot of dentists have probably heard them or they haven't gotten anywhere, you know, so they might go in with those misconceptions. Three, the depression of having bad smell and bad teeth. So I always go in like, okay, is this, is this a miserable person that I'm not going to like? Or is it just somebody who's having a bad day and in a place they don't want to be in? Cause we can change that, you know, we can change their attitude. So I'm very much with you. Jumoke Adedoyin: ⁓ ⁓ 100%. Yeah, like so that for me is a big part of what I like to do in dentistry. know, like the heart patients are like, they're the reasons why I'm there. Like I want to get to the bottom. Like, and a lot of times we go in there and you know, it's also some of the things that I talk about, like even how we present, like we stand over them, like we're talking gibberish to them. We're talking gibberish. They don't understand. We're in their mouths and we're searching through. I mean, everybody is very, you know, we're very Adam Hogan, DDS: Mm-hmm. Jumoke Adedoyin: protective of our personal space. So we're all in their mouth and then we're saying something to the staff and then we come up with a big bill and it doesn't help. Like, let me not go into insurance and how, you know, they think about insurance like medical insurance and they come into the dentist and it's different and they think we're trying to take from them. So it's all, it's so many different layers that makes that Adam Hogan, DDS: Right. Jumoke Adedoyin: interaction harder and so I try to make sure that one I'm my best self when I show up in that I make it a little more human so most times actually when I do my consults I don't ever start out with what's wrong with their mouths like I want to know the person like why did you choose today because I found out also that there's always a reason like the bad toots been bad for 10 years but something made them coming today and my goal is always Adam Hogan, DDS: Mm-hmm. All right. Jumoke Adedoyin: to find out what that one thing is. Because if I can find what the pain point is, then we can move forward in finding a solution. Adam Hogan, DDS: Right. Absolutely. I they show up on the consultation schedule all the time with once one tooth missing one front tooth, right? And, and I always have to caution the people on the phone, you know, not to dismiss, be so dismissive of them because it may be that the one tooth in the front is what got them to call, but they've got a full mouth of bad teeth and you just don't know until you talk to them. And like you said, it's been going on for 10 years. Jumoke Adedoyin: Yes. Adam Hogan, DDS: Yeah, did we go to the same school with same instructors or have the same mama or something like that? ⁓ Jumoke Adedoyin: Maybe maybe the same mama a different daddy Yeah, yeah, so I mean no I know you don't we look very similar I mean, don't you see the resemblance? We have the same kind of eyes the same nose the same hair Yeah, you know that part Adam Hogan, DDS: They have a different daddy. Why? Why do I like to do I like different? ⁓ Same. I mean, we both have two eyes. I've got a nose. You got a nose. Yeah. ⁓ we both have eyebrows. Nice. It must be the same. be the same. Mom, dad, daddy. Obviously, I feel like I've been friends with you for years already. This is great. You've got an infectious personality. Jumoke Adedoyin: Thank you. Yeah, it's it's you know dentistry is hard enough right like We just want to be, we just want to enjoy life. And I think the dentists that do well are the ones that just like you want to help people, but at end of the day, it's not that serious, right? Like it's a way of living and there's life outside of the, of the operatory. That's what I always say. And I just want to make sure that I am feeding both parts of my life. I am feeding, you know, my, my work life and I'm feeding my real, my, my outside of work life, right? Because there is no balance. Like I would tell you, Adam Hogan, DDS: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. Jumoke Adedoyin: that work-life balance thing is a farce. It doesn't exist. It's more of a harmony. Like, so how do I feed both of them so that I'm showing up on both sides, you know? Yeah. Adam Hogan, DDS: Yeah. Yeah, I totally agree with you going back to a comment you just made about dentistry is hard enough and we need to be nice to each other. I think you just said that and why is it and you know, there are very good dentists are very nice to each other. But why is it that we all get that when we're talking to patients, you know, like treat them all kindly and be give them grace. Why is it that dentists look at other dentists with such competition and contempt, you know, and oftentimes like think, ⁓ I could have done better or you know, what, what's wrong? with that dentist over there? Why aren't they trying? Why aren't they any better? ⁓ Do you know what I'm talking about? You see that? People dentists looking over each other's shoulders. Jumoke Adedoyin: I was like, oh my God, yeah. Or like even like throw each other under the bus when a patient comes in and said, oh, that work wasn't done well, right? I've seen it, it's happened to me. And I remember saying, you know, I have a mentor that told me very early on and I'm sure you know who he is. And he told me, he's like, don't, Adam Hogan, DDS: Mm-hmm. Jumoke Adedoyin: That's the last thing you're going to do because if you do it in front of a patient they'll do it You know when the patient comes in and they're like, ⁓ my god That last dentist was horrible and they start telling you all these things about that dentist know if you can't satisfy them that they're gonna say that's at the very next dentist, right and so for me when I started my journey in implant dentistry I was in a small town in Georgia and I was the only general dentist that was crazy enough to like to place implants and so immediately I got a lot of flack from so many other dentists Adam Hogan, DDS: Right. Mm-hmm. Jumoke Adedoyin: and they were very, you know, had me on their microscope, which, you know, at that time felt really bad. But now looking back at it was actually great because I felt like I had to go over everything and make sure I was overly competent because I knew that other dentist was going to throw me under the bus. And then one day his patient comes in and then he, you know, there was something wrong. But one philosophy I've always had is, you know what, like, I don't know what happened when the patient, you know, dentistry is such a, it's a unique, Adam Hogan, DDS: Right. Mm-hmm. Jumoke Adedoyin: Alright. of medicine where the patient's involved in the care. You don't know what happened when the patient went there. mean, we know a lot of times when patients come to us and they don't tell us the whole story. So I don't know the whole story of what happened that day, what kind of day the doctor was having, how the patient presented. So I think it would be too godlike of me or thinking I'm a god to make a judgment and say, well, they did something wrong. Cause I don't know. So typically what I would do is if I see something that kind of looks out of sorts, I typically would get Adam Hogan, DDS: Mm-hmm. that. Right, down. Jumoke Adedoyin: the doctor's name and then call them. And you know sometimes you'll get the doctor that is like why are you calling me you know I didn't do anything wrong like no I'm just letting you know because I have this patient in my chair but I don't know why dentists do that like I've never really understood it because other arms of medicine I don't necessarily see with my friends that are in other arms of medicine I don't see them saying that happens but I see it a lot in dentistry. Adam Hogan, DDS: Yeah. I mean, there's a case here in Georgia. There's something that just hit Facebook all over Facebook pages in Georgia about a dentist having his practice shut down and losing his license. it appears that a lot of his patients ended up at another doctor's office in town. And this doctor decided to maybe turn this guy in. ⁓ And the board of dentistry seems to have taken his suspended his license even without a hearing, which I mean, there's a Jumoke Adedoyin: Yes. Yes. ⁓ yeah, the Georgia Board of Dentistry is, ⁓ they're very ⁓ different. Yeah. Adam Hogan, DDS: Yeah, I read the complaint and I mean, I'm not going to mention anybody by names, but I've met the guy and was very nice guy. I him at CE courses and he seemed, I've never seen his work, but he seemed to be very conscientious and very nice. ⁓ But you know, you read the complaint that this other doctor looked at his work and said, well, in this case, he, ⁓ had vertical dimension was insufficient, at least a millimeter. And something like vertical dimension of occlusion insufficient, at least a millimeter, it's not an exact science, at least I checked. And it's an awful damning, condemning concept. Anyway, it's just why are doctors scrutinizing and why we have the crosshairs out on each other. when they really don't in other professions of medicine, that's something I'll never understand. Jumoke Adedoyin: Yeah, I mean I think I do see a lot of God complex though in dentistry and that might play into it right everyone thinks I mean because I see other other arms of medicine and they're more collaborative than they are Divided, know, so yeah Can tell you Adam Hogan, DDS: Yeah. Right. Yeah. Well, safe to say that if they, if their patients ended up in our office, we would, we would probably have the olive branch extend. We'd say like, you know, it didn't turn out. I wasn't there. You know, I can, I can do this differently if you want me to, I can do it over. Jumoke Adedoyin: Yeah. Adam Hogan, DDS: Right? Probably the right way to be. Jumoke Adedoyin: Yeah. And you know, I think working in a DSO also helped, like really helped me with that because I would, you know, I was in leadership in a DSO for years. so I had the opportunity to go in to so many practices. We had, you know, 400 practices across the nation. So I had the opportunity to go in and see the works of a lot of doctors. And, you'll see, I'll see an x-ray or CBCT. And, you know, I, in my mind, I, you know, I have to tell my Adam Hogan, DDS: Yeah. Jumoke Adedoyin: not to prejudge based on what I see and then I go back and talk to them and there's most times I mean look they're always gonna be bad eggs right but most times once you get the backstory like you understand and you empathize like does it make wrong right no but like you begin to understand there's there more than two sides to a story right in the the x-ray doesn't tell the whole story Adam Hogan, DDS: Yeah. Right. No, I completely. I mean, there's that whole patient interview and the put with the patient wants and all the dialogue that goes on chair side that can lead you to a certain decision. And oftentimes patients will lead the doctor into doing things that maybe they didn't otherwise recommend primarily. So, you know, I get it. You know, can we talk about the DSO? Are you free to chat a little bit about it? Yeah. So it was with who? It was. Jumoke Adedoyin: Yeah, sure. Yeah. I was with affordable dancers and appliances. Adam Hogan, DDS: Right, was with Affordable Dentures, 400 offices you would clinically oversee, clinical advisor, so to speak. What was your title? Chief Clinical Officer. I was searching for that. couldn't remember. There was an official term. Tell me about that role in dentistry. What did you learn from that? How did that change your perspective on dentistry from what it was previously, five years before that? Jumoke Adedoyin: Yes, chief clinical officer. Yeah. ⁓ yeah, okay, so. ⁓ I mean, there's always good, I mean, when you're in a DSO and you're leading, so first of all, I was a clinician with the DSO for years. So I was on and off with Affordable for 20 years. So I knew the network very well. we also were very focused on specifics, right? It was dentures, implants, extractions, that was all we did. And so moving on into a management role, I went in as a clinician, 100 % clinician, right? wrong is wrong and everything is only clinical. Like you had no other perspective. And I quickly learned that it wasn't just only clinical. When you're talking about a DSO, it's also a business, right? And it's not a not, it's not a not for profit business. It's a for profit business. So understanding the dynamics of the financial implications and just also management, right? Like ⁓ operational management was something that I knew how to Adam Hogan, DDS: Mm-hmm. Jumoke Adedoyin: I was good at in my single practice, but now when you had to multiply it to all these offices and had to have other stakeholders in there, I had to learn to work really nice with other people that may not have clinical insight, right? But had operational insight. And so that was probably where I had my most growth was like looking at dentistry as truly a business because it is in a lot of times because of what we talked about Adam Hogan, DDS: Thank Right. It is. Jumoke Adedoyin: before we went into dentistry just to help people and we look at it as clinical but it's both. Adam Hogan, DDS: Right. Yeah, it's, it's almost a dirty word, right? Business or sales and things, you know, I mean, we are coming to work to earn a living and, ⁓ we're not exactly taught how to be a business leader. How did you come in to affordable with any business background at all, or just from what you learned in private practice? Jumoke Adedoyin: It was just what I learned from private practice, you know, and what I learned from my husband and I ran some businesses together. So like what I'd learned was what I brought in. But I was way ahead of a lot of doctors in the network because I mean, in dental school, we had one dental management class. And I remember it was on a Friday morning in your last year and nobody showed up for that class, right? Now I look back and I was like, that was probably the most important class and none of us showed up for that class. Adam Hogan, DDS: Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Yeah. We were, I thought, mean, 20, it was 20 some years ago, uh, at Michigan, we had a class and it met, it met like once a week for a couple of years. They were kind of on the, they say on the forefront of doing a little business training. I really very much appreciated that. I thought it was exciting. You know, you would do all these models on like, where you choose to open up and how big your office is and do you invest in this or that advertising more operatories and there was a computer program. I thought it was a fun work game. was like modern monopoly. So I thought it was cool. Yeah. Yeah. I thought it was cool. think they need more of that. Jumoke Adedoyin: ⁓ really? Yeah, so we... Yeah, they do, especially with the newer generation coming out of dental school, right? Like things are so different now with the new graduates, right? I know the doctors that went through dental school around COVID got the shorthand of the stick, right? Like they, it was so, it's been so hard for them to like kind of break out because they didn't get a lot of patient interactions in school, definitely no business interaction. Things are harder now, more expensive, definitely. Adam Hogan, DDS: Yeah. Jumoke Adedoyin: the DSOs are taken over and so they have more opportunities there but then there's always this ⁓ push for revenue, right, production and so a lot of times they just don't have a mentor which for me was also one of the biggest things was I was so blessed to have mentors all throughout and that really helped me shaped really who I am today. Adam Hogan, DDS: Right. Yeah. So for the new grad in the DSO world, I mean, it's a, it's different from where I came out 20 some years ago. You know, it's just, DSOs weren't really a big, I don't even think they were a thing really. I mean, there might be some group practices, but I don't think there was anything national. mean, clear choice came out later after I graduated. And then there was the affordables and the other ones and there's hundreds and thousands of them now. But, um, it wasn't an issue for me. It was like, you're going to go out, you're going to go into private practice or you're going to work for the government. mean, it was. Basically it, you you're going to go to military public service or private practice. And now it's, I guess the majority are looking at DSOs at this point in time. Is that right? Probably 50 % or more. Jumoke Adedoyin: Yeah. It is right. Most new grads will probably, think the stats are almost two to one or even more than that, will go to a DSO first. And for so many other reasons, right? The DSOs probably can offer them a base that is more competitive than a private practice. And most of them are coming out with student loans that are crazy. So they're looking for a place to start immediately. And when they go into a private practice, Adam Hogan, DDS: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Jumoke Adedoyin: yours, ⁓ they probably, it's a lot slower for them, right, to get out of the mud. Adam Hogan, DDS: it would also be a lot harder to start off in a private practice like yours or mine, you know, with this kind of advanced surgical and prosthetics. ⁓ You know, what is, what's your advice to them then if they're graduating school? So what do you, they say, Hey, ⁓ Dr. AI, I'm thinking about going into a DSO. I also have a couple of opportunities of private practice. What should I do? Jumoke Adedoyin: Exactly. So that's a trick question. ⁓ First of all, I would say, if you could do a GPR, a post-grad program would be amazing at this point, right? So that you can pick up your speed. And you can know a little bit more because my thought process is that dental school gives you the permission to now. Adam Hogan, DDS: I'm not trying to trick you, I promise. I'm not trying to trick you. Yeah, right. Right. Jumoke Adedoyin: Learn dentistry like they don't it's not a license that you know dentistry because I got out of dental school and I I honestly just felt like they gave me permission to now go truly learn so they're gonna need to learn if you're looking at reps ⁓ You definitely a DSO would be the place for you because you can get more reps there and you're learning on somebody else's dime to be honest You're not going to have that much opportunity in a private practice, you know because the finances are probably tighter and you've got that Adam Hogan, DDS: Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Jumoke Adedoyin: doctor saying, you we got to do things and we got to do it right. So I would still say the DSO space, you just have to really make sure you're aligned in terms of goals with the DSOs because I have doctors, I had doctors then that would come in there and will come into an affordable, but you don't like surgery. Like you're in the wrong place, girl. Like you're in the wrong place. Adam Hogan, DDS: Yeah Right, I fully it wasn't a trick question I fully I kind of agree with you So I actually did a DSO so to speak I joined the Navy. All right, and yeah, so probably the world's biggest DSO Yeah, but people Doc's asked me and I think I have same advice they say Jumoke Adedoyin: You ⁓ yeah. That's the oldest DSO, the military. Yeah. Adam Hogan, DDS: ⁓ should I go work for DSO affordable or whatever? I know it's, you know, they'll be like, it's the evil empire. I'll be like, no, like it's not that bad. ⁓ know, you're going to go out and you're going to get your experience. It's okay. And you know, who knows? You might excel in that, in that framework, but you know, even if you only did it for two years, it's okay because why dental school doesn't prepare you. It doesn't. And so I could have gone private practice, but I went in the Navy. ⁓ why? Because should I go work for DSO affordable or whatever? I know it's, you know, they'll be like, it's the evil empire. I'll be like, no, like it's not that bad. ⁓ know, you're going to go out and you're going to get your experience. It's okay. And you know, who knows? You might excel in that, in that framework, but you know, even if you only did it for two years, it's okay because why dental school doesn't prepare you. It doesn't. And so I could have gone private practice, but I went in the Navy. ⁓ why? Because Well, one, I had been a prior Marine and I I missed the military and I loved it. But two, I thought when I graduate, I don't want to worry about my paycheck. I just I don't want to be hurrying to do more dentistry and make that money. I just want to I'll just take a base pay and just ease into it. And so that's very much I think what you were talking about, that DSO mindset. Right. Well, one, I had been a prior Marine and I I missed the military and I loved it. But two, I thought when I graduate, I don't want to worry about my paycheck. I just I don't want to be hurrying to do more dentistry and make that money. I just want to I'll just take a base pay and just ease into it. And so that's very much I think what you were talking about, that DSO mindset. Right. Jumoke Adedoyin: Yes. Yes. And for me, that's, I mean, so I went into private practice and I did DSO. For me, it was also a different reason. Like I'm a mother, right, of three boys. And so I found out in private practice, I ended up having four babies, like my three and the practice. And it was just taking too much. So it helped me ⁓ focus on learning the skills and not running the business. So everyone has a different reason. For me, I wanted it to be more available for my family, you know? And so the private practice, And for me, that's, I mean, so I went into private practice and I did DSO. For me, it was also a different reason. Like I'm a mother, right, of three boys. And so I found out in private practice, I ended up having four babies, like my three and the practice. And it was just taking too much. So it helped me ⁓ focus on learning the skills and not running the business. So everyone has a different reason. For me, I wanted it to be more available for my family, you know? And so the private practice, Adam Hogan, DDS: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Jumoke Adedoyin: ⁓ Once I got through it, I knew it wasn't going to work for me on the long term, so I sold my practice, went into a DSO. Best decision I made at that moment, for sure. Adam Hogan, DDS: Right at that moment, are you are you free and clear of the DSO now in private practice again? Jumoke Adedoyin: So I'm free and clear. actually, I just left the DSO almost a year ago. I'm doing some locum work right now and I'm doing a lot of teaching, you know, so that's kind of where we met. I'm doing some teaching. I've started an educational program with my friend, Dr. Fenton. And so it's called Full Scope Dental and we're teaching the general dentist how to perform. basic dentistry, basic surgical dentistry with excellence. That's our key. Excellence. Adam Hogan, DDS: Let's talk about that. I met Dr. Fenton as well at the same time I met you. It's called Full Scope Dentistry. Based out of Atlanta there where you are? Do you guys have a clinic or a facility or a classroom? Jumoke Adedoyin: Yes. Full scope, yes, yes. ⁓ Well, he's in Florida, I'm in Atlanta, so we're, We have a couple of facilities that we use. We've got some in Florida. We've got a couple of others. Yeah, we've got one in Arizona as well. So yeah. Adam Hogan, DDS: Okay. Okay. I might know one in Virginia Beach too, Virginia, if you want to talk. We'll have to see. I've got a great Institute, a nice classroom. You'll have to come check it out. By the way, I'll extend the invitation to you. If there's something you see you want to come check out, let me know. Absolutely. So you're teaching general dentists how to do basic surgery. So single implants or over dentures, what are we? Jumoke Adedoyin: ⁓ Thank you. Well, I'll take you up on that Thank you. I would love to. I would love to. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I mean, we're starting from extract and graft, right? Like you'll be shocked how many, you know, when I pull my friends, they refer out all the extractions and you know, could you keep some of those in house? I mean, I love surgery, right? You love surgery. And I found out that, you know, just extracted and graft is setting your patients up for success. And so basic extract and graft, ⁓ know, single tooth implants, overdenture cases, you know, everyone wants to Adam Hogan, DDS: Okay, yeah. Mm-hmm. Right? That's right. Jumoke Adedoyin: the sexy all-in-x but there's so much runway before that and that you can serve your population really well while you're building your skills so you're not running and prematurely going into the all-in-x cases because when you see a lot of these failures and complications in all-in-x cases to be honest what I see a lot is doctors they kind of ran in a little too soon and did not pre-plan or kind of take care of the basic things that needed to happen before they did the cases Adam Hogan, DDS: Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, I agree. You you talk about being able to build your practice with the simple stuff. I mean, when I was, you know, a general dentist doing a lot of implants in the early years, that's how I grew my practice. was you don't just take out a tooth, you graft it with a membrane. And then if you do that every day, then four months from now, every day you have an implant to put in and you're doing another graft. And then the word gets out, you're doing it. And eight months later, you're doing two a day. And four months after that, you have two implants a day to place. And you you just compound this, you know, every four months cycle of extracting graft. You know, it's like, I had a policy, we never extract a tooth without a bone graft. I say, no, I mean, Jumoke Adedoyin: Yeah, yeah, we don't extract teeth, we extract and graft teeth. Like that's what we said, we're like, we don't extract teeth, we extract and graft teeth. Adam Hogan, DDS: Yeah. Yeah. And it's better for the patient too, not just better for the practice. You're not, you know, the patient's getting a, you know, they're getting an option other than nothing or a partial. So, you know, you take something that gives you revenue of $150, $200 and now it's $750, $1,000. Right. And then there's an implant on top of it in four months and you can just see how your practice will grow almost exponentially. You know, every four months it'll, it'll take another bump. Jumoke Adedoyin: ⁓ yeah, and it's you know, you're you're doing that and you know, it's all about also explaining the value to the patients because people tell ⁓ my god, my patients won't pay for the bone graft. I'm like, but did you explain to them like do they understand the value because it's not the graft that they're paying for it's the value it brings with it and that's so you know, my patients don't pay for implants because they just you know, they just love titanium. They're paying for the life that I've been able to express to them what happened after they get it. And so being able to Adam Hogan, DDS: Yeah. Right. Jumoke Adedoyin: explain that is super important to the patient. And when you explain it and they understand the value, they'll pay for it. Adam Hogan, DDS: No, I agree. They're looking, they need you to guide them to what's the best, the best treatment, you know, it's, ⁓ and they should because you're, you're the expert, right? You're the dentist, you're the expert, you know, and for young people out there, I'll tell you, every time I had a patient talk me into doing something I didn't want to do, I regretted it and the patient made me pay for it, you know, so you just do what's right. Do what you know is the best treatment. I am in a position as maybe you are, I don't know, but where I'll give them three options, but if it's not the option I want to do, they can go somewhere else. You know? Jumoke Adedoyin: Yeah, I mean, you know, so another so I have a lot of philosophies that I abide by one of them is if you do the right thing the money will come You know, so so that's always a like I will do the right thing by the patient and I agree with you Sometimes I give them an option it is an option But it's not what I want to do or what I think is best for them I can send them somewhere else to get it done, you know, but like when you're And I think sometimes you know when you feel under pressure Adam Hogan, DDS: That's right. That's right. Jumoke Adedoyin: is don't ever feel under pressure. Because when you feel under pressure, you'll do the wrong thing. Or you'll do the thing that you haven't committed to. And a lot of times, it gets you in trouble. And you end up paying way more than what you made from doing that one thing. And ask me how I know. Adam Hogan, DDS: That's That's right. I know. I know how you know. think we had the same painful lesson. We've all had the same paddle, I guess. Yeah, I remember vividly this old man, gentleman, he had, he wanted me to save a tooth. I wanted to pull it and I begged him and pleaded to pull it, pull it. He's like, he told me, I'm the patient, you'll save it. And then what? The crown, it doesn't even last, I don't know, a year, two years. And he came in so mad. Jumoke Adedoyin: Yes. Yes. Adam Hogan, DDS: And he's like, you should have told me. said, I did. told you like 12 times. He said, you should have told me more. You should told me harder. I'm not the dentist you are. And you're doing this implant for free now. And I'm like, OK, stop bending over backwards to do stuff that you know is not ideal. You're the doctor. Make the decision. If the patient doesn't want to do it, they don't have to do it. Right? Yeah. Jumoke Adedoyin: Yep. Yeah, and it's not it's not worth the headache that it gives not just you the patient and your staff as well Right your team right like cuz you're you're training them to always compromise You know, we're not saying don't take care of the patient But you know you're training your team that you're always going to compromise so you've got to put the stake in the ground at some point and decide what quality is and what you can do and what you don't want to do and it helps your team be better support for you on the long run Adam Hogan, DDS: Absolutely. Yeah. I agree. And the team, by the way, if you, like you say, treat people right, and if you do good dentistry, they will, they will support you through thick and thin. They will have your back. Yeah. You never have to worry about what they'll say when you walk out the door. Do you ever get referrals from other offices where a dental assistant in another office sent the patient to you? Yeah. Jumoke Adedoyin: 100%. Yeah. Uh-huh all the time all the time and I remember when I first started implant dentistry too. I actually placed the implants on my team right team members and They've seen me work and that's why it's so important like it's not so much as the cases we put on on social media that gets all the likes it's professional integrity is kind of what I live by like Do that work like if I cannot do dentistry or I cannot do a case the Adam Hogan, DDS: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Jumoke Adedoyin: best way possible then I don't need to do it and my team is they've they figure that out right like so they'll they'll have their friend from the practice down the road send someone over to me to get the work done it's always it's it's the best compliment you know when you know the dental assistants because they they know more than you think they know Adam Hogan, DDS: Oh, for sure. mean, I just had my last full arch case. Well, a couple of goes like Monday. She came to our office because at a local DSO, she didn't have a great vibe with the doctor. And when the doctor left the room, the assistant said, Hey, you know, you got to go see this Hogan guy. So, you know, that's the guy you got to go see. I don't even know anybody in that office that I to my knowledge, but It's wonderful that the word gets out there, but it's assigned to Dennis. Your staff is watching. And if you don't do the right thing and treat people right, you're in a business slipping out the door. And by the way, that team member might slip out the door too very soon. Right. Yeah. Jumoke Adedoyin: they're your biggest cheerleaders. A lot of times when the patients come in and they meet the front desk or someone and they meet you, they automatically think they're paying for your Mercedes. I've had patients tell me that. So I give them a treatment plan, I walk out the room, the patient leans over to the assistant and say, would you do it? What would you do? They trust the assistant more than they do you for some reason. And I'm fine with that. So I take care of my team that much more. Adam Hogan, DDS: Right. Right. Right. Jumoke Adedoyin: I make sure they see that I do quality work, not because they're looking, but because it's who I am. But then I also take care of them, right? So they are advocates. They'll be like, ⁓ my God, she's the best doctor to do the work. they can close a treatment plan better than you can with all your degrees, with all the letters behind your name. Adam Hogan, DDS: Yeah. Right and if you have to be the one closing all your treatment plans, then I think you probably have a systems and a teamwork problem, right? So DsO coming out of DsO systems and teams. I mean, I know you've got a book you could probably you want to write like Where does where does the young where does the new business startup entrepreneur need to start with ⁓ systems? What do they have to do? Jumoke Adedoyin: There's a problem. Correct. I got a couple of books. Yeah. Hire the right person. Yeah, yeah. ⁓ Yeah, mean, hire the right core team would be the first thing, you know? Adam Hogan, DDS: It might be too broad of a question I guess. It's pretty... Yeah. Jumoke Adedoyin: You have to, you have to, you can't do it all by yourself. That's the first thing. And you've got to hire the right people that are going to be your core. And you have to learn not to micromanage. Like that's going to be my, my, my blessing to them. Like whoever's starting to practice, please don't micromanage them. If you hire the right person, you hire them because they have the skills. Stop micromanaging them because on that thing they have the skill on, you probably know nothing. Adam Hogan, DDS: Right. Right. I can barely turn on my computers in this office. So I know what you mean. ⁓ Next week, I do my business seminar. It's a two day how to 51020 seminar on business of all on four and business of, it really is concierge dentistry. I could apply to ortho, but ⁓ how do you get into that? And it's, said the first system you need is a team. My first lecture is on ⁓ team and who's in what's roles and what people you need and what roles. And I think that that... Jumoke Adedoyin: see we're from the same mother I know me too tell her to send my check Adam Hogan, DDS: I know right. How is she by the way? I haven't gotten my allowance lately. She hasn't been called. Right. Yeah. Say hi to her if you see her before I do. But all the doctors always come with how much, what marketing company should I use? How much do you spend per arch? You know, what kind of advertising should I be doing? I'm like, we're going to talk about that tomorrow. Like, yeah, there's things we got to get to way before that. Right. Jumoke Adedoyin: Yeah, and I think we've been programmed also to think marketing is everything. And it's, if you don't have the core, if you don't have a system in place, you don't have the core people, you're just throwing your money away on marketing. Adam Hogan, DDS: Right. Yeah. Jumoke Adedoyin: Like, know, I know marketing has its place, but we put so much on marketing. And that's why you'll see dentists jumping around from one marketing company to the other, because it's also not giving them that immediate satisfaction. Like it takes a lot more than just marketing and putting your name out there and paying this exorbitant amount of money to get them to put people through the door. What happens when the person walks through the door and Jane at the front desk is doesn't even know what's going on. Like you've just wasted that money. Adam Hogan, DDS: Right. Yeah. Yeah, it's, see it all the time. Whenever I get a doctor who's been to one of my business courses or clinical courses and they say, I'm just not getting the, ⁓ business. I'm not getting any full arch. It's full arch is dead. I haven't had an arch in three months. I'm only having one a month. What can I do? And I mean, even before I do a phone call or go to the office, I know that it's the person on their phone that's answering their phone every time, every time. And they have no systems in place and they don't have the right person on that phone call. It's, I've never found that to not be true. It's always the people answering the phone. And so you can put 20, 50, $100,000 a month in it. And if you're not answering that phone correctly and you don't have a system in place, you might as well be spending nothing, right? Jumoke Adedoyin: Yeah, I mean, it's the people than the processes, right? Like if you have the wrong person in the wrong seat, you are not going to get the results. And a lot of times in a lot of these practices, because you've got this turnover rate that is ridiculous now, people just want a warm body. And I said, there's an opportunity cost to just put in a warm body in that chair, because yes, there's a body there, but like you don't have the right people, your processes are not gonna work. So you've got to build the whole system, but you have to start with the people. Adam Hogan, DDS: Oh yeah, absolutely. I was looking at your, I'm gonna see if I can share your website. So I was gonna pull this up. Well, it's got a great looking picture here. Tell me, this where we can find you? Is this your main, yeah? You look fabulous. Absolutely fabulous there. Jumoke Adedoyin: I'll Yes, that's me. Yeah, that's her. Thank you. Adam Hogan, DDS: I love that. That's great font, good warm colors here. Where was I at here? I gotta scroll. So, ⁓ great, bright pink, I love it. Jumoke Adedoyin: there. There, I'm getting all the points, huh? Adam Hogan, DDS: Yeah, yeah, you know, it's very, it makes me kind of wonder I want to keep on looking, you know, so you get, ⁓ you get seconds to keep someone's attention online. I think you've done it here. You've got our attention. Tell me what I can find if I read on what are we what are we going for here? What can they find here? Consulting mentorship. Jumoke Adedoyin: Yes. Awesome. Yes, they're going to find the consulting, they're going to find the mentorship, ⁓ and mentorship in so many different directions, right? So dentistry is one of the lanes I'm in, but just mentorship for women. I've been able to successfully run practices and thrive both in my clinical life and in my home life. And so that's a challenge a lot of high achieving women have. And so I love to help women like kind of navigate that, especially when you're changing seasons and you're transitioning from, you know, one thing to the other, from, you know, being just a wife to being a mother to from being just a general dentist to wanting more skills. Like, how do I balance it? I don't like to use the word balance, but how do I do it and thrive in all of it? And a lot of it is building systems for yourself. So a lot of what I see in practices is actually a reflection of what I do in my own life, too. You know, how do I build those Adam Hogan, DDS: Mm-hmm. Jumoke Adedoyin: systems ⁓ to make me thrive. How do I not micromanage the things that I don't like to do, for example, and focus on the things that bring me joy? Adam Hogan, DDS: That's perfect. You know, people need mentorship for sure. mean, I would be nowhere if it wasn't for my mentors. I'm sure you have a few, right? Yeah. Not just in dentistry, but coaches in life. Jumoke Adedoyin: ⁓ yes, I have a lot, yes. Yes, I mean, you know, and that's the thing you have to find, you know, we all haven't arrived in every area of our life. So I look at each area of my life and I say, you know, in this area, who's doing better or who can I glean from? And then they become your mentors. So in every area of your life, you should have a mentor. You know, you should have someone that you're looking up to, but you should also mentor someone else. It's kind of what I talk about. I talk about a growth circle and every human should have like these three groups of people. around them. A mentor that can pull them up. Someone they're doing life with that can challenge you on the journey and a mentee someone you're pouring into Because think about it if you put a glass of water and you never pour the water out the water gets stale So if you're not pouring into someone how are you able to get from other people? it really does help you and it you know They always say like if you're teaching something you'll know it much better, right? Like so there's no better way to To know what you know than to teach somebody else, right? So I always try to surround myself with a mentor mentor, mentee, and people I do life with that kind of keep me engaged and challenge me all the way. Adam Hogan, DDS: Do you find that with this generation of people who are just kind of stuck on their devices and stuck on the internet and stuck on YouTube learning that they're struggling a little bit to gain personal relationships and mentors? Jumoke Adedoyin: They are, they are. Because they think they can find everything on YouTube and YouTube is amazing. Like you can find some really cool stuff on YouTube. But there's a part of mentorship that is the human element that you will not find on YouTube. You know, that human part that I can call a friend, that call a friend button doesn't exist on YouTube. Adam Hogan, DDS: Right. Yeah. Phone a friend. Like it was a game show back in the day. Anyway, ⁓ I had a, I had an associate here a couple of years ago and he had a friend from dental school and my associate said, you got to go to Dr. Hogan's classes for all on four. He said, I don't need to go. I'll just, I'm learning on YouTube. YouTube is amazing. Jumoke Adedoyin: ⁓ yeah. Adam Hogan, DDS: about six months later, he contacted my associate and was asking if I would help him with legal representation out of case he got in trouble with. And ⁓ it was a case probably never should have been embarked on in the first place. And this, you know, one thing YouTube can't teach you is life experience from older doctors, doctors that are mentors. You just can't, you just can't learn everything online, which, you know, it sounds like a plug for courses. I'm not just plugging my own course. You know, I actually plug everybody's course because I don't think you can learn all on four in two days from you probably can't learn it from one person. It's a little more of like an evolution of a decade probably to learn. Yeah, I agree. You are. ⁓ Jumoke Adedoyin: Or even more, even more, right? ⁓ Yeah, even more, for sure. Adam Hogan, DDS: Quickly you have because you are a leader in dentistry. What do you mean? I was about to say you're becoming a leader in dentistry I mean you're but you're new to me, but you you've got a you've got a big You're pretty popular when I talked about having you on the pod people know you and you know, is it do we just attribute that to? Affordable or what is what does that come from? Jumoke Adedoyin: I think affordable is part of the story. ⁓ But I think also my story, you know, I've never been one to sit back and kind of not do things. I've even within affordable, I've always been a pioneer of change. And but I but I think what's even more important is not just the dentistry, it's just the whole life thing. Like I'm an advocate for, you know, female dentists to not just sit back. I remember the first time I got the opportunity to speak. I was in a course and the doctor was talking about all these implants he was placing and all these surgeries he was doing. And I remember sitting at the back of the class saying, well, you you're guy, your wife's probably home and you know, look, I'm telling the whole story. So whoever is offended. And I was like, man, you know, you're probably, in, you you're, you're at work till six o'clock, probably your wife is home with the kids. And, you know, I was making all these excuses and I remember, can't remember, Adam Hogan, DDS: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Jumoke Adedoyin: who said well if you're making all those excuses why don't you get up there and I was like ⁓ okay you know and so I think I've become this picture or yeah this picture of what is possible you know how how can you do it and do it elegantly and do it well right ⁓ and I think that's part of the message I carry do it well Adam Hogan, DDS: Yeah. Right. Well, you're certainly doing it with elegance, looking at that website. If I want to know who does your wardrobe. Yeah. Jumoke Adedoyin: Yeah, I mean, you implant dentistry is also very male dominated. So I think just because there's not as many females in that field has allowed me to probably be have a louder voice. Adam Hogan, DDS: Yeah, well definitely male ⁓ dominated I I would agree with that, you know and the reasons to why I mean You know we can get into the numbers and who who chooses what after dental school and whatnot ⁓ But I mean I fully applaud women like yourself are jumping up and taking the stage and taking the lead and helping other doctors and I mean 400 Chief clinical officer for 400 offices is not a small task. I mean did you were you ever home? ⁓ Jumoke Adedoyin: I was gone a lot, let's say that. So I was gone a lot. And so again, that's definitely giving credit to my husband because he held it down at home really well. And again, speaking about life, I talk about dentistry, but I'm gonna talk about life. Having a partner that really trusts and believes in you and allows you to go after your dream is so important. Because I would not have done it if he wasn't here. Adam Hogan, DDS: you ⁓ yeah. And I think boy or girl, know, husband or wife or spouse, whatever that's. Jumoke Adedoyin: Yeah, partner. Adam Hogan, DDS: always true. My wife, Allie is fully supportive of my career and she's my number one cheerleader and you know, she's like, go, go, go do this, do this, do this, you know. ⁓ now that being said, we try to get a balance and you know, spend a lot of time together and really check in when we're home, be home, you know, and we're home, not be at work. You know, Athena was on here a month or so ago and she said the same thing, her husband, if she says she's going to go to Guatemala or Virginia beach, you know, he just like, okay, honey, have a safe trip. Jumoke Adedoyin: Yes. Yes. Adam Hogan, DDS: What can I do to help? know, so that goes. Jumoke Adedoyin: Yeah, yeah. So I think part of success is also the relationships around you. And we don't talk about that a lot in dentistry, but you would find the doctors or people that are doing well, they have a community around them that allows them to show up as their best self. Be a spouse or family member, but there is someone there that is kind of cheering you on in helping you ⁓ lighten the load of what you have to do. Adam Hogan, DDS: Yeah, so you got listeners out there young listeners out there You know make sure you have a good strong foundation at that at home if you want to be successful in your career, correct? That's what we're that's what we're saying here Going back into dentistry, and that's a very important message by the way, but going back into dentistry, do you feel that overdentures get talked about enough in this full fixed immediate load, full arch world? Is the public getting served on overdentures? Jumoke Adedoyin: Now this is my lane. No, I don't think it's getting talked about enough and I think it sometimes it's presented as the lesser option and it's not the lesser option actually when you start thinking about the dentureless population in the US or in the world and Just the comorbidities that happen like the patients like all of that I don't know why we're not screaming it from the rooftop and saying look we need to get this patience the moment we take the teeth out we need to get the in an implant appliance, whatever it is, because it's a better quality of life overall. Adam Hogan, DDS: Right. Yeah. No, I mean, there's definitely, I agree. There's definitely a service for it. I don't know why everybody is completely overlooking it, you know, but it's like, if they don't come in with a $50,000, they don't get a seat. Right. It is now. Jumoke Adedoyin: 100 % but I think it's also the glamorization if that's a word of the all-in-x cases, right? Yeah, it is now I think it's that and people just don't understand it and because look I think when I speak a lot when I say hey, know how many people love to make dentures No hands go up how many people want to do all in X all hands go up But what people are missing is that it all starts with a good fitting denture. I'm not I don't care if it's a denture you're making it's the same Adam Hogan, DDS: Mm-hmm. Jumoke Adedoyin: principles that you're using and a lot of people run away from over dentures just because of the denture part of it. So maybe we need to rename over dentures to something more fun. Adam Hogan, DDS: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Do you have any proposals on that? I'm all ears. Jumoke Adedoyin: I mean, I'm just thinking, I don't know. just, need to come up with it. Brother and sister, we need to come up with a new name that sounds equally as fancy as like the All-in-X and maybe people will do it. And, and you know, in terms of like doctors that are newer in their journey, it's almost impo- well, I wouldn't say almost impossible. It's very hard to screw up an overdenture. Adam Hogan, DDS: Yeah. Well, yeah, I mean you can't I've seen Okay Right, I would say maybe what you're going for is that you know, if you don't do it Well, it's a lot more forgiving. Okay, because it's floating and you could take it out and get relief if there's pain or whatever. Yeah Is that is Yeah Well, let me Jumoke Adedoyin: Let me finish that sentence. Compare it to an auto-mix case. Yes. Yeah, but if you have an all the next case and the distal implant fails You're having a bad day. Okay a bad day Adam Hogan, DDS: Yeah. mean, ⁓ let me show you something. It's funny you said that because this is a consultation I just had and we're going to be Evan. This is one you got to look at this. You got to look at the screen because when you edit this, ⁓ yeah, we've got a case here. All right. And, ⁓ let me, let me go back so I can manipulate this case for us, but, ⁓ here we are. You can see this, this case comes in and the upper, it's a lower all on four. upper all on three at the moment. Okay. And as I look at this, I'm just going this never, I mean, if you're not doing remote Anchorage, this shouldn't have even been an option. You know, this kind of case. Jumoke Adedoyin: I was gonna say, like there's nothing. There's no like posterior support. Adam Hogan, DDS: Yeah, and these implants I mean I took a look at it by the way, let me show you something else these implants out front are probably at a 75 80 degree angle to the occlusal plane ⁓ So we've got that let me go back to my screen I want to show you and then we've got these x-rays Where are they? Jumoke Adedoyin: And how long, how old is the patient? Adam Hogan, DDS: About 50. Yeah And so here here we go ⁓ You got these are can you see these implants? So we got these short little active implants they're like eight ten millimeters they're failing and you know the the request is Can you can you put in a couple more implants and then finish the arch? Just just add an implant. Can you add one implant somewhere? Jumoke Adedoyin: so they know. Mm-hmm. Now, we need to start over in remote Anchorage probably. Probably Quadzygos. Adam Hogan, DDS: Yeah. And you know, yeah, exactly. It's pterygoid, quad zygos, maybe a couple of zygos, maybe an anterior palate to save a quad zygos. But it's definitely a complete remake, redo. And no, we can't just add two pterygoids. I see this all the time. And for that doctor that's under that pressure to make everything an all on four, it's, did you consider just a denture or did you consider referral to my practice to do quad zygos? You know, why are we using eight millimeter aggressively tapered implants with very deep, severe coarse threads, 10 millimeters even? Why are we doing that? Jumoke Adedoyin: I see those all the time. I see those all the time. And one of the things I try to teach or try to explain to doctors a lot of times is there are two things. One, ⁓ no treatment is a valid option and a lot of us don't use it. And two, stop saying, if this was my mother, this is what I would do for her because this is not your mother. And a lot of times that clouds our judgment because we think the more extensive Adam Hogan, DDS: Right. Jumoke Adedoyin: treatment the better but it has to be the best treatment for that patient at that time which means the best treatment could change but in that moment that's the best thing for them you know and sometimes it means a denture or mean turning the patient away even though they have a bag of money in front of you and I know it's hard but sometimes it means turning them away it means no treatment is the best option and sometimes it's an overdenture Adam Hogan, DDS: Right. Jumoke Adedoyin: on too because that's all that you can successfully and predictably do for them. Adam Hogan, DDS: Yeah. Yeah. Do you think doctors are feeling more pressure to do this kind of advanced surgical and complex prosthetic work because they're driven by the fame and notoriety or by the pressure to produce, especially if they're working in a group practice or a DSO where they're watching the numbers? What is it? Jumoke Adedoyin: It's both. It's both. mean you see it on social media. Like there's that pressure, you know, I have a few younger dentists that I watch on social media and one will post the case, ⁓ you know, would post a case that's pretty impressive and then you'll see the other one post and you'll see them just, you know, they're getting like likes on these cases and if they post an over day or a denture case, nobody pays attention to it. So like we're creating this animal, right? Like so it's become this thing in the, you know, They're they're also marketing their business on social media So they want to post more of those cases and I think also on the other side is the financial aspect if you're working for a doctor or you're working for an organization that has Set goals for you financial goals each month and they're pushing you right like you don't have autonomy in terms of what you do You don't have full autonomy like they're pushing for you to do more cases and you're like man if I do $150,000 case then I've made my goal, you know and We see a lot of that. We see a lot of those pressures. But with the second group, you also see a lot of... ⁓ complications. I worked in a DSO, so I dealt with a lot of those complications where you're like, what in the world made you think this was an ideal case? And the world is so fast right now. Nobody wants to take steps. Nobody wants to crawl and walk before they run. I remember when I started placing implants, it took years before I did my first all the next case. And even that one case I planned and over planned and over planned and it took months, but now they're out of dental school and in a year they're doing all and X cases. like, what in the world is going on? Right? So. ⁓ Adam Hogan, DDS: Yeah, so not so fast my friend, right? Slow down a little. I say every time I say not so fast or slow down a little bit, know, somebody says accuses me of being a gatekeeper and keeping them down and Right protect them protect the public and Jumoke Adedoyin: it's not that we're actually trying to protect them from themselves you know and then protect the patient Adam Hogan, DDS: I do say this all the time though. I'm like, I am the furthest thing from a gatekeeper. am teaching this kind of dentistry and I'm really not getting compensated. Those of you guys think we're all getting rich out here in education. I think there's three people on this planet that might be making a living at it. You know, the rest of it is just, I feel like it's just taking time away from our families, but we want to get, I want to give back and I want to give the profession. So I'm not the gatekeeper. I'll tell you that. Jumoke Adedoyin: Yes. Yeah, not gatekeeping. ⁓ But teaching just fulfills a part of me also, just being able to give back. There's just something it does for you. Like you can't quantify it in dollars, you know. Adam Hogan, DDS: Yes. It's like you're giving life. I've never been able to birth a human and give life to a human, but you're giving somebody life in their career. To me, it's like that male equivalent. the only, I've said this before, but I'm not sure if I ever heard it somewhere, but I'm. Jumoke Adedoyin: It is. Adam Hogan, DDS: I probably never had an original thought. So I probably plagiarizing this from somebody, but I can't remember where I heard it. But I've always believed that the only immortality you have on this planet is the way that you, what you transfer to the next generation, the way you make other people feel. Everything else will be gone. It's your legacy. Yeah. That's the only way that we live forever is with through knowledge and emotion, just helping other people. So I think it's, I've basically done the same thing as childbirth. Jumoke Adedoyin: Yep, I agree. similar, similar, Adam Hogan, DDS: Similar, very similar. So I've got one woman to agree with me at least. She's nodding her head in public. Right. Yeah. Where was I anyway with that? All right, listen, green light cases. I heard you talk about green light or knowing when a case is a good case. I think you mean more, you're talking more about the physical. Jumoke Adedoyin: Yeah, yeah, not in public so Evan cut that off. Adam Hogan, DDS: on that, aren't you? Jumoke Adedoyin: Yes, like, you know, so everyone's like, I, Teach or I always say like I bucket my cases into like what's a green light case. That's a good to go Like I I know I can do this case I I know if there are complications I can handle them Those should be the first cases you do in your journey with implant dentistry, right? So that number 19 has been missing for a while, but it has abundant bone, right? Like it's got 14 millimeters above the eye eye. N that's a green light case. A premolar is a green light case A central is not a green light case Adam Hogan, DDS: Right. Right. Jumoke Adedoyin: You know like don't that's an aesthetic case of all the next case don't do it ⁓ a Case that requires rich split all of these things like because the more Complex it is all those layers would increase your chances chances of having a complication So so when when I that's that's how I started, you know, I started slow And they kind of slowly worked my way But as I see doctors also just teaching doctors for a while I found out that if you have failures so much earlier in your journey, you're so afraid or it traumatizes you and you don't grow as fast. So why don't you just start with things that are slam dunks and the more wings you have under your belt, the more confident you get and the faster you can grow. Adam Hogan, DDS: Right. Yeah, amen. And I lived that. I tracked my own success way back early in my career. I don't remember how many years or months, whatever I practiced, probably years, but I wondered about my own success and I should have published this, but I never did. But I looked at my first 637 implants I placed. And we all wanted to say we have this 99 % success rate, which I was boasting at the time. And I was surprised to find a 94 % success rate at that time. However, I jumped into that and I delved into that and I said, okay, let's look at all the failures. And I realized that if I kind of threw out like my first 60 implants where I had a bulk of failures, and then if I threw out the cases that I never should have done in the first place. Jumoke Adedoyin: Pretty good. Pretty good. Adam Hogan, DDS: like the hard, you know, splitting cases or the cases we found that was 2005, six, seven, eight. We weren't testing everybody for diabetes and we found a lot of failures with diabetics. Um, but if I threw out like my first 50 or so implants and I threw out diabetics that weren't tested and known, and if I threw out those super hard ridge splitting cases, I had a 99.6 % success. And so big, I should have published that. It's a big lesson for people. Jumoke Adedoyin: Yeah. See? You should have published that because that is so like you're speaking to what I'm saying Like if you can just stay in that lane, I always say your lane, right and your lane changes the the more mature you are in In what you're doing the more you can move to the right or to the left whatever it is But you want to have a lot of successes at the front end, right? Because it boosts your confidence It also allows your team to have more confidence in you and then you can also treatment plan more like Adam Hogan, DDS: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Jumoke Adedoyin: I saw it like my once I was having cases and they were coming back and these patients were telling everyone in the little town in Cardiff's feel like you should go to her right like she she like I feel great I can eat I can chew I was getting a lot of referrals from other patients too because it was good so like if I had a lot of failures I didn't want anyone in little town in Cardiff'sville saying ⁓ she put an implant in there and you know I've had problems all this while like it's not a good brand builder Adam Hogan, DDS: Mm-hmm. ⁓ No, I it's not. I often say you can fool the public for about three years, but after that, I mean the reputation is out. Yeah, yeah. Three to five years and you're done if you don't take care of your work and you don't take care of people. So you can either do the right thing or you can move every five years. It's up to you. Yeah, I couldn't imagine starting over. I mean, Jumoke Adedoyin: It'll come back, because it's going to come back. Yeah, you're going to see it for sure. Yeah, I agree. Yeah. And moving gets expensive, right? Adam Hogan, DDS: today I had two consultations from doctors I've never even met that I've never thought I didn't know that they knew I existed, you know, and that's 20 almost five years in one place. I suppose that's you don't get that in five years. It's just, it's very hard to get in five years, I would say. So there's a lot of, ⁓ benefits to staying in one spot. So as somebody who's been through the DSO model, and I mean, that's the ultimate scale, right? The billion dollar dental business. All right. Jumoke Adedoyin: Great. No, you don't. I agree. I agree. Adam Hogan, DDS: I don't know how many billions it is, ⁓ but so let me ask you this, and this may be a trick question. I'm gonna set this up, okay. Aliouf, all right, you decide what to do with the ball. Can you scale implant dentistry without losing quality? Jumoke Adedoyin: Okay, all right. Yes, you can. The question is, the question becomes, can you afford it? Because you have to put systems in place, right? And you have to, right before, ⁓ yeah, so with affordable, I did some work on quality, you know, like quality assessment. that in itself is such a heavy lift, because you have to be able to do that and you have to have the resources to go out and do that on one end. And on the back end of that, you have to have education available to upscale. Adam Hogan, DDS: How do we do that? Jumoke Adedoyin: you know, and it becomes a big financial burden. So it can be done theoretically, but can it realistically be done? It's a hard thing because it's such a fine. It's such a big financial burden. Adam Hogan, DDS: I agree. Yeah, it takes, it's going to take a lot more effort, you know, and a lot more collaboration between like-minded good doctors and teams. Right. I think, you know, that weakest link is kind of that weakest. You're as strong as your weakest link is very true in a large organization. Right. So you can't do, you can't be a great office if you're a prosthetist is suffering or your dentist can't do the process, but, or if your surgeon is suffering, but you have a great problem, you know, et cetera. So that's always an issue. Jumoke Adedoyin: Yes. Adam Hogan, DDS: ⁓ to the credit, I'll tell you, you might be proud to hear this coming from, still get referrals from inside the big boxes. You know, they, they, it's great. I get them from here. They, they know that it's a little bit outside their scope and I say to their credit, they're sending cases over that are a little more challenging. So it's, it's good to, it's good to know that they're not just, you know, keeping them for the sake of profit. Jumoke Adedoyin: That's great. And you know what I also, so one of the things I tell doctors is don't have this mentality that you're gonna keep all the cases for yourself, right? Because that's when you get into trouble. I found out that the more cases I did and referred out, the better, it was almost like I was able to like sift through and keep the cases for myself that were slam dunks and then send out the cases typically to a surgeon. an oral surgeon then and you'll you know when I was not very good at lateral windows like he'll do those and then he'll send the patient back so you're not really losing out like in the grand scheme of things you're not losing out especially if you put the patient's need at the middle one way or the other you're getting the patient's needs met but you're also building your team like internal and external your referral team and you're building your community that would help you along the journey just long term Adam Hogan, DDS: Yeah, amen. You just answered my next question. I was going to ask how young dentists fastest way for them to learn, know, build confidence without hurting people. You you just said it, you know, you got to refer them for further things you don't know until you've watched enough, learned enough and you're more comfortable getting in there probably with a mentor. Jumoke Adedoyin: you Yeah. And then you have to be invested when you refer them. Sometimes take the day and go over there and watch that dentist do the work. Don't just refer them and be like, okay, that's it. Go there. So there's a lot that goes into the building phase. Once you kind of know, it's not easier. It's just you have different other challenges. But at that beginning, be a... Education should be important to you and it doesn't have to be in a classroom. You've got to glean from every source that you have around you. So going down the street to the oral surgeon on the day you're off for like an hour to watch the case or a surgeon to watch the case, you learn so much there, you know, and, know, if you have, if you have a doctor in your, in your practice that has skills that you want to learn, like honestly, like use those opportunities. They're huge. Adam Hogan, DDS: Right. Yeah. And you know, the, and this of the, ⁓ of the whole learning experience can sometimes ring true. remember in my younger days, early days, I'm still young by the way, but in my early dentistry days, I am always 13. If I asked my wife, she knows, but when I would go to watch oral surgeons, you know, at first it was, ⁓ I'd go and watch and I see the way they do things. And then if I was, Jumoke Adedoyin: I'm always 21 always 21 Adam Hogan, DDS: go to, I'd go back and I go back and I go see others. And then eventually I learned, okay, I, what I'm seeing, I wouldn't do anything any different. And it was a validation that I was, okay, now I know because I'm, I would do exactly the way that they're doing it now. So it sort of reaffirmed my own confidence to go out and try it now. So it was also this validation, you know, so even if you go there and you don't learn anything, you still learn something. Yeah. That you got some, you, you, can do this work. You can move. Jumoke Adedoyin: Yes. You still learned something. Adam Hogan, DDS: So after you've been through private practice, ⁓ DSO, back into private practice, family, kids, a beautiful family, by the way, I didn't comment on your website, but I saw your beautiful family, and you've got all this success, what excites you in the morning about dentistry when you go into work? What do you wanna see? What really gets you amped up? Jumoke Adedoyin: Thank you. So in dentistry, what really tickles me right now, I'm always going to be tickled when I'm able to serve a patient and change their lives. That would always be the ultimate. When I see a patient on the day they come in for their consult and when they come back later, I don't recognize them because their hair is done, their makeup is done. They have a whole new lease on life. would never, that would always be the number one. what... Adam Hogan, DDS: Right. Jumoke Adedoyin: tickles me now also is helping other doctors achieve success. And so for me, that that's probably the biggest thing. You know, when I get that text message from a doctor that I probably went into their practice to mentor and they send me an X-ray, you know, or they, know, they do something that shows that man, they took something, even if it's one thing from what we talked about and they implemented it and you could, you could hear it in their voice, you know, people are excited to Adam Hogan, DDS: Yeah. Jumoke Adedoyin: better. That's the one thing I've realized. People want to be better. Sometimes they just don't know how to navigate that. You know, that's where you and I are there. Like, we want to share the knowledge. Like, please call me. Like, please reach out. And a lot of people are like, well, you're so busy and you're such a... I'm like, actually, most people who are mentors at heart, they want to be bothered. Adam Hogan, DDS: Right. Jumoke Adedoyin: They actually, we thrive from it. So one of my mentors in implant dentistry for a long time, Dr. Justin Moody, right? And I remember one time I called him early, he's on the West Coast, and it's early and he picks up the phone. I'm like, I'm so sorry, I was gonna leave a message. He's like, no. This is what I love to do. I want to be available to help you. So if there's a message for younger dentists, it's most of the more skilled dentists that we want to help. So don't be shy. Don't not come. Come and bother us. Please do. Adam Hogan, DDS: Right. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. mean, ⁓ I got into education for probably 10 reasons, but, know, one of them was just to watch other people grow and blossom and, and, know, see that my favorite class that I do is my fundamentals class with the people that come in and they're just kind of like a fresh slate and just watching these light bulbs turn on and all the great questions you get. That's my favorite. ⁓ it's much, much easier, much more satisfying than the, you know, one of the classes I'll run next on remote Anchorage is when people come in for that advanced skill and they all act like they're artists. know it all. Don't tell me I already know it all. I'm not saying they're all going to be like that. But it's definitely, you've got that people that are, what do they say, wet behind the ears or they're a little green. And there's a lot of fun in seeing that and seeing the light bulbs go on for sure. Jumoke Adedoyin: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes. Yeah, because they're like a sponge, right? Like you don't it's like a blank canvas. You don't have to most times when you have those classes, there's very little to unlearn. Right. It's kind of like when you hire a dental assistant, there's work for this great surgeon and then, you know, they want to tell you what the surgeon did anyway. You know what I'm talking about. But like when you have a new one, you can really mold them to like what you want. And it's so it's so it's so nice. It's really nice. Adam Hogan, DDS: Right, right, right. The over-qualified technician. Do you just want the 15 blade? Do you want me take a break? Jumoke Adedoyin: Yes, that one, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just do it yourself. Just do it. Adam Hogan, DDS: Yeah. And they're like, really? Can I get out of my way? No, not going to do that. Well, have is there anything that we haven't discussed that's near and dear to your heart that I mean, I think you've covered a lot of great cons. mean, a lot of good life skills, a lot of positivity here. Jumoke Adedoyin: Yeah, like no. Yeah, no, I Yeah, no, that's it, you know a lot of people like why I I think I'm always happy people like you're always happy. I'm like Yeah, you know ⁓ You owe yourself that to be always happy and you need to always like look at your life and look at what's going on and filter out the things that don't make you happy because we all have this one life to live and I'm not going to live a less than life and a lot of that comes from my faith, you know, everything I do is built on a foundation of this faith that I have in this also this knowing that I was created for a reason for this time. And so I, I decide that when I do die, like in 150 years that I want to die empty. Adam Hogan, DDS: Spent. Having given it, given it all to everybody else. Yeah. Perfect. I love it. And a saying that I have that was given to me by grace of God through a patient. And she said to me, Jumoke Adedoyin: that I want to do everything that I need to do and I want to die empty. Yes, giving it everything, yes. Adam Hogan, DDS: you're not doing dentistry, you're doing ministry. And that really hit me because it was true. Although I didn't have the words, but giving somebody hope and faith and love sounds a lot like ministry. Jumoke Adedoyin: It is ministry, yes. Adam Hogan, DDS: Yes, and so that's, I mean, I think that's what you're saying well, you know, that you can touch people in a very divine, faithful way. Yeah. ⁓ Jumoke Adedoyin: Yeah, that's what I'm Yes, yes, so yeah. So that's why I'm always happy. I guess I'm always happy, I guess. Yeah. I'm always I try to be positive. You know, it's you know, we all have our ups and downs, but overall, generally try to be positive. Adam Hogan, DDS: I can see it. I feel it. So where can we find you in the free? saw your website. Um, where can we find you? Where are we going to see you speaking in the future? Jumoke Adedoyin: ⁓ okay. So I actually have a few speaking. So I've been speaking a lot lately at DSO conferences and overdenture is truly like a passion of mine because if there's one thing I want to do in dentistry is to bring awareness of the fact that it's not a lesser treatment option. It's actually a valid treatment option. You can find me on Instagram most of the time at at dr jim okay on all platforms so on instagram facebook i just started tiktok so we'll see how that goes are you on tiktok Adam Hogan, DDS: I'm told I'm on TikTok, but I don't run it. I am on TikTok, but that kid over there in the other corner and a couple of other people are running my TikTok. Jumoke Adedoyin: Yeah, so I just I just started tiktok. you know, so we'll see how that goes but i'm typically on instagram That's kind of like my stomping ground and then i'm on linkedin a little bit lately i've been i've been playing around with a little bit more social meet ⁓ there I am. See look at you. You're you have fast fingers Adam Hogan, DDS: Yeah, right I found you you were saying on my Instagram. I found you beautiful great pictures Love it. ⁓ I like this Jumoke Adedoyin: Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. Yes. Adam Hogan, DDS: Yeah, very nice, you don't you don't you're definitely into your faith and I think that that's pretty that's we need that we need more of that Gorgeous. I just need to know who's your stylist like This is what is Okay, I mean Jumoke Adedoyin: Yes, and that's the foundation for sure. So this was my birthday last year I turned 50 big five ⁓ Yes But we had like an amazing party ⁓ For our friends and family. Yeah, it was a big deal Adam Hogan, DDS: You have to do a lot of arches for that dress. ⁓ That's crazy. Jumoke Adedoyin: So I do enjoy fashion, so I have to say that. I enjoy fashion. Adam Hogan, DDS: I can tell. It looks like a lesson in fashion in there for sure. You should be in fashion, that teeth, although I'm sure your teeth and the implants are amazing. Jumoke Adedoyin: Thank you. Yes. ⁓ Yeah. If I weren't a dentist, I don't know what I would be doing, but it'll be something with fashion or something. Something aesthetics. Adam Hogan, DDS: Yeah, well for anybody out there watching this on YouTube in the fashion world you just found your next supermodel right there So go take a look. Okay. All right, save you from this dental dental world. All right Save me Well, that was great. ⁓ dr. Jim. Okay, Jimmy key. Did I say that right? Jimmy K Dr. Jimmy K ⁓ Jumoke Adedoyin: There you go. ⁓ yeah, please save me, save me. Jimma K. Jimma K. Atedoyan, you said it right. Adam Hogan, DDS: If there's one thing that I took from this conversation with you, it's that this isn't really about implant dentistry. It's not about speed or ego or volume. It's more about judgment, living a good, meaningful life, knowing when to treat, how to treat, build systems in good teams if you want to have success at your office. ⁓ What else? mean, think that, does that about summarize? Jumoke Adedoyin: Yeah, find yourself a mentor. Like, find one today. It's really important. Adam Hogan, DDS: Yeah. Find a, find yourself a mentor. Well, Dr. Jim, Jim, Jim McKay, this, this was a master class in thinking and life skills for sure. And I want to thank you for joining me. I want to thank everybody for listening on the web, on YouTube, on your pod app. Please subscribe if you enjoyed this conversation and a fire away with questions. Jumoke Adedoyin: Jimma K. Atadoyan. Adam Hogan, DDS: and also on Dr. Jimicae's Instagram page. Probably be happy to answer questions. Jumoke Adedoyin: Yes, thank you so much for having me. This has been amazing. Like, this has been really good. I actually enjoyed the conversation. And now I know I have a brother from another father. huh. Adam Hogan, DDS: That's right. That's right. We will see each other on Father's Day this year. Okay. All right. If I see the invitation, I'll let you know. All right. Have a wonderful rest of your weekend, okay? Take care. Bye. Jumoke Adedoyin: Yeah, there you go. Yeah, for sure. All right. Okay, then. All right. All right, you two take care. Adam Hogan, DDS: Today's guest isn't just placing implants. She's thinking about them differently. From building an implant-focused practice to developing true clinical judgment, she's focused on something most dentists miss. Not just how to do the implants, but how to decide when and the why. Dr. Jimache, welcome to the show.