speaker-0: Ride, teach, inspire. This is the Dropping Next Podcast brought to you by the Canadian Association of Snowboard Instructors. speaker-1: Okay, cool. Welcome to the Dropping Next Podcast, the Canadian Association of Snowboard Instructor official podcast. I'm Geneviève Pilotto and I'll be your host for today's episode. We have an absolute powerhouse lineup today. Watch out for this. Or as we say in French, an belle brochette d'invité. Hey Luc. Welcome to the show to three of our program managers, Luc Bellanger, Adam Gardner, James Island, and one of our national technical team members. Jamie Forbes. Don't worry, these guys will introduce themselves slowly after I'm done with this intro. With this crew, today we will be pulling back the curtain on a part of the underground scene of our association. We'll be talking about the under the scenes work that we do mostly during the off seasons, but also on an ongoing basis through the winter to consistently research, develop, update all of our education programs and materials. In this episode, ⁓ I thought it would be really interesting to bring on a few of the key people who help Cassie grow, evolve, and whom I work with closely throughout the year to ⁓ constantly improve our and update our curriculum. ⁓ these individuals are not just colleagues and friends, they're also incredible writers, yeah, educators, and highly efficient technical advisors. They're part of the group I like to call or Cassie Tech. Forces. In my role as the Director of Education and Programs, I serve at as the national technical team leader and main coach, and I also work in tight collaboration with all of our staff and program managers year-round to execute our operation, maintain top-tier quality control, and keep our program evolving. A massive chunk of my role is gathering input and feedback from everyday corner of our community. So is part of the role of the program managers and the national technical team. ⁓ Taking the time to make accurate strategic decisions that honors our roots, which is very important to us, and also while ensuring valuable consistent growth. My duties would be impossible without the dedication of those individuals in this episode. This lineup of our team is just a small sample of the passionate people at the forefront of our association. whether they are leading on snow as evaluators and mentors or working behind the scenes. So now let's get to know our guests a little bit more. ⁓ you've probably seen those familiar faces leading some of our ⁓ on snow events during the winter time. So in order to get to know you a little bit more, please each give us a quick overview of your background in Cassie and involvement in the tech forces over your snowboarding professional career. So we'll start with ⁓ each of you introducing yourself and let us know where is your own base for the winter and as we shift in the off season, what is one of the things you do to fill your time when you are thinking where when you are not thinking about snowboarding. ⁓ let's go with James first. speaker-0: All right. So yeah, James Highland. I'm the ⁓ Ontario, Manitoba, Saskatchewan ⁓ program manager. ⁓ been doing it now a couple of seasons. It's been it's been awesome. I'm based in ⁓ Collingwood, Ontario. Spend most of my time in the ⁓ Collingwood area, ⁓ training at Blue Mountain in a couple of different resorts. And so that's kind of my home base, Blue Mountain. ⁓ Blue Mountain. There we go. and what do I do to when I'm not thinking about snowboarding? Well, I'm thinking about golf a lot in the summer. And I just ⁓ picked up skateboarding again for the first time in about 20 years. So ⁓ that's been a really interesting progress. ⁓ but ⁓ yeah, that's me. That's where I'm at. speaker-1: Welcome to the show, James. speaker-0: Cheers. speaker-1: Let's go with ⁓ from up north, ⁓ Jamie Forbes. speaker-3: Hey, I'm Jamie Forbes. I'm a member of the tech team, national technical team. And ⁓ yeah, I've been kicking around the north of BC for a few years now. I'd say my home base is BC, Alberta during the winter season. I seem to be on the road ⁓ a fair bit and helping Adam out wherever he can use me. yeah, with what I do in the summer at the moment. take my mind off snowboarding, I'm trying to create more work for myself. ⁓ just building a a plot of land where I've got some bees on it. I'm looking to get some chickens and some cows for next year. So making sure the fences and everything are up to stop yogi bear to stop ⁓ coming through. speaker-1: That's awesome. Welcome to the show. ⁓ let's go with Luc. Lick Belanger. speaker-0: ⁓ Luc Bellanger, I'm the program manager for the province of Quebec in the Atlantic provinces. I'm on the east side ⁓ of the country here. I am based in Chelsea, Quebec, and ⁓ very close to Ottawa on the Quebec side, ⁓ national capital region. And ⁓ what do I do to fill my time when I'm not thinking about snowboarding? ⁓ well ⁓ my kids are very active in their sports and whatnot. So right now I feel like all my free time I spend driving to and from like a an event. We're ⁓ turning into a big paddling family. So we go back and forth to regatta and coaching the team a little bit and just like you know, just being for them. So that's been filling up the free time. Parenting, basically. ⁓ I mountain bike also, like whenever I get the time and what and whatnot, so love to get out first. speaker-2: some mountain biking, so. speaker-0: Hopefully like later this week actually. So there you go. That's me. speaker-1: ⁓ thanks look. And the cherry on the Sunday, Adam. speaker-0: I've been called worse. Yeah. Hey, Adam Gardner from ⁓ well, I'm sitting in Canmore right now. This is my home base for the time being. ⁓ I'm your Western program manager, so that includes Alberta and BC. I work pretty closely with ⁓ Lisa. So the two of us we we team up on the West here. It's quite a large region, so yeah, two brains are better than one or one and a half brains, however you want it. Fine. The cherry here. ⁓ yeah, so I've been involved for quite a long time with the tech stuff. I actually I tried to get on quite a few times when it was a ⁓ a democracy and there was a vote, but I never got voted in because I think I taught enough courses that I failed a lot of people and nobody voted for me. So ⁓ I worked behind the scenes for a long time and then ⁓ once we went to the ⁓ like tryouts and stuff, I ended up getting on the tech and then kinda helping ⁓ lead the team there a little bit and I worked as a bit of a concierge between the tech team for a while there and and Jen. ⁓ yeah, always just kind of working towards bettering Cassie and and ⁓ putting my hair brain ideas forward. So yeah, that fills a lot of my time. But when I'm not doing that in the summer, this summer I've been riding my mountain bike a lot actually. It's been pretty good most days. Try to get out for a bit. ⁓ doing that for quite a long time actually. It's a bit of a tumultuous relationship with biking, but this is a good year. So we're back, friends on again. So speaker-1: Cool. Thanks, Adam. So we'll ⁓ we'll continue with with you for the first part of the show. ⁓ we will be covering in in this first part ⁓ some of our updates that we're working on as a team during the summer. And one of the projects that's been at the back burner for the last few years is our Big Mountain ⁓ course. And so following last season, Adam or our ⁓ successful pilot in Whistler. ⁓ the Big Mountain Course is officially launching this season with a limited offer. Offering. And ⁓ could you give us a little bit of a quick review of our pilot, how it went, and what we are currently working on together for this program? speaker-0: Yeah, for sure. So last January we ran a pilot in Whistler after many months of ⁓ putting course material together and and creating a skeleton outline. So yeah, we met in Whistler. It was myself, ⁓ Jan and ⁓ Jeff Chandler. We yeah, we had this pilot in mind. We had a quite a good ⁓ pool of people that were applicants for the course, so they were all kind of hand picked. We had ⁓ Three guys, three girls, and it actually was funny. We had three regulars and three goofies. I don't know how that worked, but good screening there. yes, we kicked off the pilot. It was probably the trickiest conditions I've ever seen anywhere. There's a lot of interesting stuff going on. A lot of the bigger terrain was wasn't even open because they had a huge rain event and everything slid. So there's a ton of debris. ⁓ followed by another rainstorm which caused some big rain ⁓ runnels like the big lines that froze and then followed by some baking sun which made all the high spots have those ⁓ sun cups like golf ball. So yeah, I've never experienced all three of those at once, but it made for actually a pretty awesome pilot because we got to tap into just being ⁓ creative and just making sure that we we were running it in probably the worst scenario that we could, but made the most of it and learned a lot and Got some guidance from our our crew and we kind of took our skeleton and kind of reorganized the bones pretty quickly on the fly there. Hey, it was pretty good. So I was kind of in charge of the pr presentation and Jen and Jeff were kind of babysitting for most of the time and got involved in some of the presentation as well. But ⁓ yeah, went pretty well. We got some good feedback from from the candidates and we took that and kind of restarted jigging our notes and and kind of starting to put together an official program. So kind of where we're at right now is ⁓ we have, you know, our course ⁓ outline, evaluator guide, everything is ⁓ is pretty close to being a final product here. ⁓ not saying that we won't be looking for more feedback on it and things like that, but kind of where we've landed now it's still going to remain a bit of a niche ⁓ product. There's gonna be a little bit of an application process behind The ⁓ behind this project as well, just just because we're not gonna offer a lot to begin with. We have one course again scheduled in Whistler in January and another one ⁓ late February in Lake Louise for this season. So only two. so look out for those if you're interested. Apply. application process. We're basically gonna be looking for candidates that number one can ⁓ can benefit from. From this program with their schools, but also give us some pretty awesome feedback ⁓ on the course and help us to continue to grow and build it. But more importantly, just ⁓ people that have some pretty extensive experience leading people through terrain and and have those class management skills that are that are key for this course. ⁓ leading people through dangerous situations and and terrain with consequence. So kind of the the course in a nutshell. so it kind of fits in the pathway here right now. We were speaking about making sure that people are in that level three ⁓ riding module realm. So making sure that you're you're through the riding module and that you know you maybe had an honest conversation with your course conductor about, hey, this is something that I want to do. And we can at least have a conversation with them as well to make sure that you're a right fit. For this kind of niche program here. So ⁓ yeah, not saying that if you're a little bit of a lower level, you can't apply. If you have some extensive experience teaching these programs, maybe ⁓ at your resort leading people through big mountain terrain, or maybe you're a s aspiring guide or or whatever it is, you can you can still apply. ⁓ so yeah, that's kind of where we're at right now. What else do you want to know? speaker-1: I think you you covered pretty much ⁓ everything there, especially the why our members should take this course. ⁓ this is not a course for everyone, as we say, that's a niche course, so it really depends of what you're looking for in terms of your teaching. But really this is this course focused on the safety of teaching in that type of environment. So if you're thinking of teaching in some of those free riding programs that are offered in different resorts, that's a good course to ⁓ think of attending. And ⁓ also maybe for your personal skill development. We're definitely looking at riders that can safely ride in those type of of environment as well because ⁓ for safety purpose. So that's why we'll be doing an application process and ⁓ some some screening before the course even starts. ⁓ so stay tuned for more details as we're launching this program this season and don't hesitate to reach out to both ⁓ Adam and myself would be your reference point for the for this course for the the this season. Yeah. Cool. Anything you wanted to add, Adam there? speaker-0: Yeah, I've been telling people like don't don't take this course for something to do. Like take this course if it's something you wanna pursue and and keep kind of improving in in this world. Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah, it's a really cool product, really cool program. we had loads of fun, even ⁓ just to reemphases the fact that it was the worst condition we could have hoped for and we still made it work and had a bunch of fun. So it it was an actual real test. So hopefully we'll get ⁓ better conditions for the next couple courses. That's also part of the game though, to deal with those in that environment. So the speaker-0: ⁓ Yeah, we definitely created some pretty awesome memories and and stories and probably some mental scarring for a few people there. But yeah, it was definitely one for the books. speaker-2: And sometimes it's not. speaker-1: And yeah. And got our our bones shaken and our snowboard traversing to some debris there. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, I think the other cool part about this pilot project was I was also part of the first the very first park two pilot that came through. ⁓ Luke was on that one as well, right? So yeah kind of neat to go from being like a you know, a guinea pig on a course to actually being the guinea pig master on the course and and running people through. And I did reflect a lot on that experience from the past. Like I remember when this was like a yeah, it was quite a bit of a show there just trying to figure out what what we're gonna do, what the standard's gonna look like, ⁓ how all this is gonna fit together with, you know, people that might not be at the caliber that is in front of us. But yeah, it was pretty neat to be on the other side of a of a pilot this time. speaker-2: Mm-hmm. speaker-1: Yeah, and it was really cool to get the to work as a team with the candidate as well, to have them apply wanting to be part of this pilot. And they had pretty extensive feedback to to get to us after the course, after the fact. So it it it was ⁓ definitely helpful in this phase of our review. Cool. ⁓ okay, let's ⁓ move to our next ⁓ guest. Luke, you're next. ⁓ we have structural align alignment coming to the level three pathway with ⁓ the return of an instructor standaline standalone instructor training exam day. My God I'll say. You could you elaborate and explain what's the main reason for updating the level three IT module and exam day and what did we learn from last year's ⁓ two to today assessment. speaker-0: ⁓ yeah, I would preface this by saying, like, you know, we don't change things just to like change things. Some people might feel that way sometimes because we made a change not so long ago to the level three process and going to modules and even with the IT module that had ⁓ last year ⁓ an included exam. It's it was an ongoing evaluation over the two days. ⁓ and now we've ⁓ kept the module at two days, but now we are back. speaker-2: Ha ha! speaker-0: with like a one-day exam ⁓ essentially or something similar we had in the past. ⁓ to and the reason for that, like, you know, a couple kind of big reasons, not necessarily in order, but the first one was to let the module breathe like a little bit in a way that to like take off the layer of ⁓ perhaps like stress of the evaluation or whatnot and just really focus on the material in there. Cause we found once again, it's not the first time in the history of or pedagogy or instructor training that it's a bit of a learning curve. Like there's some steps. Like it takes a little bit ⁓ of time to to be ⁓ handy with it, you know, like to understand and use it effectively. So given time more time for people to practice without the stress of the exams ⁓ and just letting them practice at their own pace, like in a way, some people are really ready when they get there. Some people are a little less ready. So people are more willing to jump in and practice than others. And so that was one big reason for ⁓ to take the evaluation out of the module. The other reason to add a one day exam was to be more ⁓ standardized in the way we evaluate everybody. So, you know, we agreed on a on a format, the full kind of three part format of a session, if you're familiar ⁓ with that there, and kind of like sticking to that same format that we're expecting from the candidates structurally. ⁓ you know, same thing for all the candidates for the exams. When you have an ongoing evaluation and you have practice on and off, like you take bits and pieces, and it's a it's a great way to evaluate people. Like there's nothing to take away from that, but it's also to add, like, you know, this layer of consistency where everybody will be subject to the same like test or the same evaluation. ⁓ those were big things, like the two big reasons for those changes there. And it also lines up really well with. The other modules that we have, which are two days of like, you know, training and then one day of exam, ⁓ you know, logistically, like, you know, will be like kind of easier to manage for both the candidates and for us, like on the admin side or whatnot. But ⁓ I would say those are the big kind of takeaways of why we made that change in the IT module. ⁓ but maybe I forgot something else. speaker-1: No, I think I think you you covered everything. I mean, the I think it's worth mentioning the fact that prior to this change of format for the level three, we had a five day course and and then we would have three days of exams. And when we did make the change to go through our modular format, we wanted to also keep the cost low, try to have less ⁓ like si similar n number of days in total for the candidates. And having the instructor training as an ongoing component ⁓ was making sense because people attending to it could come directly from the level two without having done anything else. So they they were used to that format of the ongoing assessment, just like we have under level one and two. And we thought that like the ongoing assessment was a a bit of a lower pressure environment to evolve within that component, to train that component. speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. That's a great point. Then to that to the module too. Like again, like the IT module, the instructor training module or pedagogy, whatever. ⁓ you know, it's it's a great step for someone that's like maybe an experienced level two, good teacher, looking to progress. Maybe they they don't have the skills to go to the writing or the teaching like at that time, but it's a great step to come and grab that information and that makes you a lot of schools have less senior level twos that are staff trainers, you know. So here's another thing they can come to. It's not based on how like, you know, ⁓ their riding skills so much as like their teaching skills. So if they have that come and take that away and then that's a great tool to have to, you know, continue to train the people at your local hill. speaker-2: Mm-hmm. speaker-1: Yeah, and then over that test the last year we found out that we were lacking a little bit of time to achieve everything that we want. And the second they would feel a bit more like an exam day anyway. So it just made sense consulting on all of our teams of ⁓ evaluators leading this course that we switch back to towards an exam day format. ⁓ Luke, could you tell us ⁓ how does this change ⁓ help candidates develop. speaker-0: ⁓ I think it's gonna help them develop their like well more guided practice time, like is a big thing, right? And more time for them in that two days to be more focused on really sort of absorbing the material and take it away and work on it, work at it, ⁓ before putting themselves in that stressful exam situation. What was happening is like they're absorbing and learning at the same time as and at the same time they were being evaluated, you know, which again is a it is not a bad way to do it. It's effective. ⁓ at that level, however, like it's the layers of complexity sort of multiply from one level to the other, especially when you start getting into teaching the teacher, you know, that's going to teach someone. so I think that's the biggest ⁓ advantage. That's what's gonna help them a lot is like come and get the info, you know, in sort of a good, relaxed like setting. ⁓ and then give you an opportunity to turn around, go work on your feedback the same way that we handle the writing and the teaching and the level three. ⁓ 'cause it is the way our courses are designed, right? You come and get the information and you have to take it away and go practice, go work on some things and then come back for the evaluation phase, you know, and for some people it's a shorter process than others. ⁓ but I think that's the biggest thing. speaker-1: Yeah. Cool. Thanks. And and for the folks who took the ⁓ instructor training module last season under the the format that we offered last season, what does this transition mean for them? speaker-0: ⁓ they gotta do it all over again. It's all brand new. ⁓ everything they've done in the past, like no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You got everybody that did that if they did the module last year and perhaps were unsuccessful, you can simply just come for a retest on the one day exam. Those will be scheduled. They'll be on the calendar ⁓ coast to coast there. ⁓ when the calendar gets released, some more will be added through the season. ⁓ and if you haven't started the process, then you come and take the two day module. Like ⁓ I believe it's it's that simple. unless I missed something, but like it's ⁓ it's not that complicated. So you don't lose if you came to do the two day, you still got the material you need to be successful on an exam. You can come back and do the module again if you feel you need an extra two days of more practice and more guided practice. And then after that go do your retest on the exam. So obviously you can do that. ⁓ but ⁓ yeah generally speaking like that's ⁓ that's the only real change like with that change of format. speaker-1: Mm-hmm. Exactly. Or you could like people who have to retest this component could also decide to take this module again. They however they need to to keep in mind that the the information is going to be very similar to what they received the previous ⁓ when they did the module last season. ⁓ that's always good to be exposed to more training. It's probably the perfect setting for those people to just go practice train again with the dedication of like two days being dedicated to that. that component alone. if you have taken that module last season, the ongoing assessment one will be reaching out just to make sure that everybody's aware of their options going on, like to pursue their their level three certification pathway, just to make sure that we ensure a smooth transition. And and meanwhile we do reach out. If you have any questions, just feel free to ⁓ directly reach out to us. Is there anything else anybody want to add about this instructor training module? I think look covered pretty much everything, but maybe you guys have a something else? Good? Sweet. Okay, let's ⁓ talk about our level three writing and teaching modules. James, you have been involved ⁓ a lot this summer in looking at our level three teaching and writing module. ⁓ how are we updating those modules? And what are the specific elements that we're currently looking into refining? speaker-3: Yeah, yeah. speaker-0: So ⁓ I think the big thing here, and I probably could have added that ⁓ when you asked the question just at the end of Luke in your session there. ⁓ what we do is we're always striving to to make sure that the candidate comes away with the best possible outcome, which would be a pass. ⁓ that's what everybody's coming for. ⁓ so with that in mind, the way that we kind of look at things is ⁓ from the experience evaluator standpoint, ⁓ myself being ⁓ one of the senior evaluators on our team, ⁓ I kind of looked at my experience on course and seeing some of the deficiencies or some of the commonalities in all of our candidates coming through ⁓ on the exams and looking at the exams and going, okay, so maybe there's something that they're not getting in the course. That we can sort of update. So we sort of reverse engineer things from that standpoint. We look at, you know, where the chinks in the armor are in the exams, and then we go back to the course. And so ⁓ I've had the privilege of sort of rolling through both of these modules with a bit of a fine-toothed comb, thinking about you know, those deficiencies. And so that's where we started highlighting. So we're looking at making sure that the information that we're putting across. is is succinct, is easy to understand, and is going to hit ⁓ those deficiencies where we're seeing people, you know, struggling with the information. So being ⁓ very clear with how we're utilizing competencies, how do you utilize the skills properly, ⁓ how we're utilizing terrain, those are three of the most common sort of avenues that we've been, you know, running down. this summer. ⁓ and just making in making sure things are clear. There's not huge changes. We've added a little bit ⁓ a little bit more to the evaluator side and and making sure that they know exactly what is the information that we want our candidates to hear. ⁓ what ⁓ what specifically are the the target points. So I guess highlighting those deficiencies and making sure that ⁓ we're Communicating effectively. speaker-2: Mm-hmm. speaker-1: and could you talk to us about how you've been working with the tech team about ⁓ like how we proceed to these updates? Like more of them. speaker-3: Yeah, yeah. speaker-0: ⁓ so like I said, ⁓ I look from my own experience, I look at what I'm seeing, and then ⁓ w we have a document, a shared document with ⁓ with all of us, and I'll make comments and then the NTT ⁓ will make comments and it's a very collaborative sort of back and forth ⁓ venture. We make sure that ⁓ everybody has a chance to put their input in and we see the commonalities and we all come to a consensus. And ⁓ and we make sure that everybody knows this is the way that we'd like to move forward. So it's not just me sitting there going, ⁓ I think I want to change this. ⁓ it's it's very collaborative. So I make sure that ⁓ you know, I'll put a comment, Jen will put a comment, Jamie will put a comment, Luke will put something, Nick will put something, Green will put something, and we're all sort of working ⁓ very back and forth collaboratively to make sure that we're ⁓ we're not just making changes because Mi personally thinks you know the course needs to change. speaker-2: Mm-hmm. speaker-1: Definitely. And like all of those changes, it starts with ⁓ it starts through the season as we we all survey our team of evaluators who lead those programs and also the members. and and we're gathering all of those feedbacks. ⁓ and ⁓ in the spring I I ⁓ duplicate those documents and and keep in mind all of those comments and starts a little bit of the the first review pass and then end it on to the theme and then like Jeff ⁓ ⁓ James said we just collaborate to get to a point where we feel confident that the changes we make or the even if it's micro updates, that they are really reflecting where we want to go with those courses and and help our candidates ultimately. James said it really well there. ⁓ the goal is really to make sure that we're ensuring ⁓ that the training is relevant to the success of the candidate. Is there anything else you guys want to add on the Level threes stuff. Cool. speaker-0: Just that just that I think that the changes that we're making i i is going to greatly enhance ⁓ people's experience. They're small, ⁓ but sometimes these small changes make the biggest differences and I think ⁓ people that sit on the course, whether you're sitting on it for a second time you're taking a module or whether it's the first time, I think ⁓ it's just gonna be an elevated experience. That's all. speaker-2: Mm-hmm. speaker-1: Totally. speaker-0: I think to back up what you said too, Jen, like that's why it's so important for any candidates to fill out that course survey at the end. You know, if you have recommendations and stuff, those do get read usually first in this process of ⁓ yeah, fine tuning things. A lot of that feedback comes from people who are actually experiencing these courses. So fill those out for all the courses. speaker-4: Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah, totally. We take those feedbacks ⁓ very seriously and we read all of them, whether they come through that survey or by email or just a phone call to your program manager. Those ⁓ those feedbacks are really important to to us. And leads they spark discussion. So yeah. Thanks for a good point, Adam. ⁓ cool, Jamie. You're representing our national technical team members today. You're there on behalf of the team. And could you share some insight into the new assessment grids and marking skills that we're currently working on? that integrates the IACRCV model. ⁓ where this is a project that we're currently working on with the tech team. So do you wanna elaborate on that a little bit? speaker-3: Absolutely. ⁓ first and foremost, the standard isn't changing. So as soon as people hear that we're kind of looking at a new assessment grid and marking scales, the first thing that jumps in is, are they going to make it harder? No. ⁓ standards are the same. ⁓ what we're really working on here is designing something that gives a lot more clarity of where you are in relation to the standard. So when you get the result you want, or maybe don't get the result you were looking for. Here's exactly where you sit. So it's not just a ⁓ bend more, you need to be make your turns faster, etc. It actually shows you where you are in accessing that part of the teaching, that part of the instructor training, or that part of the riding assessment. And it gives you something then to build from. With the IACRCV model, it's something we've had in our system for a long time, but we've thought it was kind of speaker-2: Yeah. speaker-3: underutilized in in helping our evaluators maintain consistency throughout. So what we've done is broken it into each component, initiation, acquisition, etc. And we're actually writing a really clear speaker-1: Sorry I interrupt you, but could you remind us exactly what this acronym stands for? You just started, but I think it's worth it. speaker-3: Yeah, no. No worries. It's a test. Damn it. ⁓ initiation, acquisition, consolidation. Okay. Refinement and then b the ability to create variation. speaker-1: Ten on ten. Got it. speaker-3: Yes, I passed. I get to keep my pin. so so with this, what's really cool about it in terms of a marking system is that we can then highlight and really be very clear about what each section, each component means. Are you achieving it or are you just at that initiation level? So you really don't have a good grasp of it. That kind of tells you where you are in relation to a particular task or skill set. On the flip side to that, if you're able to create variation, you're pretty comfortable and got almost a mastery of it and can adapt it whenever you want. And that shows you where you are on your spectrum as well. You know, are you moving towards definitely being able to own this skill that you're trying to present or teach or show? Or do you still need work? And I think moving from this is really gonna give people a clearer picture of where they are in relation to the standard. speaker-2: Mm-hmm. speaker-1: And ⁓ do you want to talk a little bit about how our evaluator team will be testing out this this winter? Because really that's a tool that we're developing in the first place to help evaluate or assess the standard. we already have tools, but we're constantly looking into a way to enhance those tools. So what what should the members ⁓ know about how this impacts the actual course criteria? You say that's not affecting the standard, but how does that impact the evaluation? speaker-3: I think there's less subjectivity that's gonna come from this because everything is defined. What we'll be doing on snow this year is there actually is a level three evaluator camps happening. So we're gonna roll out some of this information to everybody and we're gonna limit it to start with to specific courses with a few people testing on other ones. So not a huge change overall. ⁓ from the candidate's point of view. As far as the evaluators go, we're really gonna hit on these are the key things you're looking for. This is the marking scale itself, and really try to aid our evaluator team in making the right decisions and having a very clear view of where the candidate is, rather than trying to add a point five or extra little marks here and there, which basically means it's down to their own personal viewpoint rather than just an objective task. speaker-2: Mm-hmm. speaker-1: ⁓ and usually like just to reassure our members that are listening to the Cipizel, we're we're working like in our all of our Cassius survey we're always trying to be the less subjective as possible when we're teaching our courses. But as we grow, we also grow our pool of evaluators, which means the numbers of evaluators as well. So in our leaders role ⁓ a at this epizil today we one of our main goal is to ensure consistency, right? That which is a big part of the quality control. So this this means that as we grow, we we're exploring some more tools to to make sure that this level of objectivity stays the same across all of evaluators. ⁓ speaker-3: Exactly. you know, that you get more experienced evaluators, you get less experienced evaluators and this framework is gonna help people stay on the same page. You know, so it doesn't speaker-4: from their rookie. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-3: So from your rookie right through to ⁓ becoming a level four evaluator, east coast to west coast, this framework should give people the tools to just maintain consistency wherever you are, whenever you're taking a course or exam. speaker-1: Yeah. Cool. And we've been ⁓ i is there anything you wanna add about this this topic of the marking seal project or and maybe the PMs can touch on how they perceive it and what what's their thought. speaker-0: just have a question that might help define some of this stuff too, because ⁓ like when we talk about the scale and we talk about the the final piece of it, the creating variation, and then you talk about something that's standardized, I think a lot of people get confused by the outcome there. And it's like, am I trying to create something new and revolutionary with something that's already kind of been standardized and established? And it might be an interesting conversation to have where Where this kind of fits the puzzle, because I've seen a lot of this happen, especially with people who are trying to jump straight to that realm of understanding. And it usually starts with, Hey, I got this new awesome idea. I'm like, okay, here we go. So yeah, maybe talk a little bit about how this fits into the mold of of our existing programs. Like, are we asking people to create new things or what does that look like? speaker-3: Yeah. So, you know, with with the creative variation, it's just showing that you can take the the skill set that we have and adapt it subtly. It's it's not really a reinventing the wheel. It's the wheel works, use it, but maybe take it off road a little bit more or see how it can be applied in a different area. That's where the creative variation will come in. ⁓ and The ability to to use what we do in areas that you wouldn't normally use and show how it works, I think, is a really cool, cool way to demonstrate that. speaker-2: ⁓ huh. speaker-0: Yeah, I think if I can add to that the creative variation, it's ⁓ it's a demonstration of your understanding and the mastery of like the various frameworks that we offer. It's like take the skills concept, which is often from the beginning, it's a pyramid or it's a concentric Venn diagram or all those things, right? Can someone like understand all of this so well that they could put it in the blender, right? And then come out with like something else that's gonna be our material, but perhaps it's arranged differently, or perhaps they approach it from a different angle, or perhaps they have their own definition of it that can help people understand it more. As Jamie's point, it's like don't don't go and grab stuff from the New Zealand system and come and bring it to me. It's not that necessarily. You can be aspired by that, right? But stick to our material and just, you know, shuffle it in a different order, you know, explain it differently, like things like that. That's how I think I've created variation. speaker-1: I think it would be worth it to ⁓ talk about what ⁓ the standard look like at the level one, for example, ⁓ in in terms of consolidation. How would you define consolidation? Jamie? How do we define not how would you but speaker-3: We consolidation is, you know, and let's let's break it right down. Let's say that they're generally centered and mobile. Now, as a level one as an evaluator, these these people are pretty new coming into it. They might have been snowboarding a long time, but maybe not utilizing the the skill set that we're showing them. So, you know, are they generally doing it? If you look at the terminology we use, it's they're doing it more than they're not. You know, so if we look at consolidation, it's it's kind of moving up there to, you know, sixty to seventy percent of the time it's dead. It's it's happening more than than not in their riding. So it's in their riding rather than they're not striving to achieve it. speaker-1: Hm. Good good description. Cool. Adam, it seems like you have something to say. speaker-0: gonna say and then when you move into refinement, you can do it when terrain changes or conditions changes or speed changes. You stay consistent with with those ⁓ movement patterns, right? speaker-3: Yeah, they don't get thrown out the window. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah, things don't s substantially change just because the environment has speaker-1: Yeah. And some of those ⁓ well those words that we're using in the ARCRCV model are it's it's a hard one to stay fast. ⁓ they're in our course guides. So all of the candidates' course guides, the vocabulary is there laid out when people are reading the criteria, they can see what we're looking at exactly. So consolidation at level one looks like. Refinement at level three looks like ⁓ refinement of the core competency at level two, for example. So all of those things those those you should be looking at if you're ⁓ going into the course. They're really well described in in the course guides. ⁓ okay, Jamie, I have ⁓ a bit of a different topic I want to touch on with you as a tech member. We're ⁓ we're going to enter ski next season. And we are ⁓ currently working, some of our teams members are working in pairs ⁓ to prepare some of our sessions that we'll be ⁓ submitting to present at EnterSKey. Those will showcase our methodology on the international stage. So do you want to talk to us about ⁓ what's the what's being done to prepare for that? speaker-3: Yeah, so as Jen just said, we basically we've been assigned a session to plan and we've been paired up and so what we're doing is is in those teams, really looking at things that we think is important within our system, using our methodology, things that work or in other cases things that we do differently to others that we believe is really good. And essentially writing out a a two hour session plan and Jugging some ideas. ⁓ then we we put it to the team and we'll get everyone else's input. So it's really collaborative. It's not just kind of what James was saying earlier in his stuff. It's not just one or two people's approach. It's this is our nucleus and this is how we build upon this using input from other people. ⁓ we're still working on them at twenty eighth of August is the kind of deadline to submit everything to to Jen. ⁓ but realistically it's it's about creating a product that we can take, present to people that are either instructors or wanna be instructors or varying different levels of understanding and ability and really highlight what we believe Cassie stands for and shows when we teach and ride ⁓ all our levels. speaker-2: Mm-hmm. speaker-1: It's important to mention that those sessions are presented to a variety of instructor levels ⁓ from the world really. anybody that decide to attend InterSki and want to be a guest on those sessions. so do you wanna touch on like what's the the because you've been to Interski before, what's the general sense, the public that we can get and how do we take it into account in our preparation? speaker-3: Yeah, well so I I won't lie, the first time going I thought all I was gonna do is present to demo teams and it's really quite different from that. So we're with assuming it with it being in Vale and there's a lot of people that can access coming to your sessions, you have to build it in so that what we're coming up with isn't the the highest of the high end concepts. It's those f fundamental foundations that we use on a daily basis. That can be adapted depending on your group. So it's just the same as a a a group presentation. It's not really a lesson, more just presenting our material in a way that everyone can take away and understand, and then they can do with it what they will. So we're not there to necessarily gain huge amounts of rider improvement. It's just to show them our methodology, really. speaker-1: Yeah. And be really ready and equipped to answer all of the questions that people may have about our system as well. Cause really those sessions become ⁓ exchange on the like those are really nice exchanges with different people from from around the world. Cool. Thanks, Jamie. Okay. I know everybody is really excited because as you know already, because you've been on this show, I think but yeah, everyone been on the show before. Our tradition in this show is that we like to do a palette cleanser mid-episode. So we reset with those three quick, lighthearted and non-technical questions to break up the more in-depth discussion. So the guests haven't heard about those questions before. They might be destabilized. Who knows? ⁓ so here we go with the first question. In this order, Jamie James look Adam. What's on the grill most often this summer? You know, like barbecue wise. James? speaker-0: Look, ⁓ me, I'm gonna say sausages. Adam. Burgs. Burger guy here too. speaker-3: Now I feel like a high roller saying that. speaker-0: You obviously get paid more than me. speaker-2: Yeah, stay defensive these days. speaker-3: not if not if ⁓ you know someone that can get it for you. Sandy but me Rob K speaker-1: I go with I go with tuna steak. That's been my lately it's been the most often on my girls. Yeah. if you could only ride one minute remaneuver from all of our courses for the rest of your snowboarding life, which one are you picking? speaker-3: Can we take the mandatory maneuver from like the big mountain module? speaker-0: Well yeah, there you go. You're alive. speaker-3: So yeah. speaker-1: You're gonna say Narlin, like Hi Travers Garland. speaker-3: Probably not. speaker-0: mandatory maneuver for the rest of my life. I want to ride for a long time. So they all pick medium turns. I could probably do this like well into my seventies. So ⁓ let's go ollies. Just gonna ollie all day. Legs of steel speaker-1: Good. Good job. I think I'll go carving or moguls. ⁓ okay. ⁓ what is a bit of a different topic. ⁓ what is the artist or one song that comes to your mind fueling your summer, whether it's ⁓ road tripping or barbecue cooking? You don't need to sing it, just mention. speaker-0: Holiday Road. Road holiday road. That's our family ⁓ startup when we go on vacation. speaker-1: That's awesome. speaker-3: Yeah, I I I can't say mine, it's a bit aggressive. I be be some some kind of ⁓ angry hip hop. speaker-1: Angry here, but well. I'm surprised. speaker-2: Yeah. speaker-0: ⁓ lately. Yeah. Lately what's been on the rotation? ⁓ Tom Petty Essentials. So a lot of Tom Petty, you know, like cruising down the road. It's good driving music. I've been digging just some instrumentals this summer. ⁓ one of my favorite beat makers, Mr. Green. Yeah. Sometimes it's nice to have the beat without the noise of lyrics. speaker-2: Yeah, totally. speaker-1: Hmm, that's good. Well, I have some ⁓ ecstatic music and afro beat playing lately. That's been kind of my go-to in the morning to wake me up. So yeah. Cool. Okay. Thanks. So we'll now transition into our second block, which focuses on the core philosophy bef behind how we function as a collaborative team. It's gonna be quite short because we touch on that ⁓ a little bit, but please feel free to jump in. Anytime the the goal really is to ⁓ give an idea to our members that are listening to this podcast of again how we work and what are some of the things that we're taken into consideration when we're reviewing all of our materials. So we always prioritize taking our time before implementing changes. I think we said that, but it's important to really re-emphasis this. And when we are right in the midst of designing and modification, we often choose to take extra time to test it out on snow. So we might think of an idea, develop it, think about it, and then the next season we'll pilot it. We really like pilot. ⁓ pilot on snow and before finalizing anything. So look why it is so vital, vital for our tech forces. to look at changes from all angles before they end up in the the official course materials. speaker-0: Well, the short answer is to make a good decision, really. something might and I've experienced this like many times from the decade plus I've been involved with this tech stuff. It's yeah, it might feel like good to you or important or a great idea, but it's always good to get the idea bouncing around the room and just getting different perspective on it. Right. Like my experience as a course conductor and how I lead things, my experience with it might lead me to believe that like this change here would line up well with how things go for me. You know, yes, we're all teaching the same material, but they're we're all very different people. ⁓ so I think that looking from all angles just ensures that we make ⁓ an informed decision, right? That that we've thought about it. And that's what to your point of the pilots like, good, run a pilot, right? Like an F ⁓ Doesn't work. Let's adjust. Or it really doesn't work. Let's maybe abandon that idea and move on to something else. Like these things happen, right? Like so I think it's a it's it's an important part of not rushing the changes and also not be too ⁓ pressed by like the the vocal feedback of some members sometimes. Some people are like very vocal, very insistent or whatnot. And It triggers us to react in a certain way when it's like, okay, I take your feedback, but let's just let's just look at this for a little bit longer and get more people to look at it. You just end up with like a better product and a more well thought out ⁓ change in the material or addition to the material you're gonna that you're gonna put in. speaker-2: Mm-hmm. speaker-0: And it's I think it directly reflects what we're we we ask ⁓ our instructors to do too. I mean, i it it it's kind of just aligns with our teaching methodology, like go experiment with some things and change it and you have to tweak it and you have to put it into play. Proof of concept has to be proofed. So I think it it just works well because this is the way that we all do things on snow. So when we come and we try to make changes, it should follow the same path, you know what I mean? speaker-2: Mm-hmm. speaker-1: Yeah, definitely. And sometimes like we're so like in between us, we have a a really good idea and then we we think it's a really good idea. And sometimes we get a bit tunnel vision with those. So it's important to leave it enough time, enough step back to and seek outside inputs as well from not necessarily an organization, like consult different people that are in other ⁓ organizations or or like read some books or listen to some podcasts, for example, do some researches that will help us to see things differently and really make sure that we we ⁓ consolidate that idea and make sure that we can take it to a a concrete action. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. I think one of the benefits too of us having a hybrid role here with like managing programs and talking to snow schools and then also meddling in ⁓ technical material is, you know, those conversations with the resorts and directors. ⁓ no, we had quite a few at this big mountain program as well, where it's like, How would this benefit your instructors? Like this is a product we're trying to offer you guys. So, ⁓ taking that feedback as well, it's not always about ⁓ you know, just looking at it from our perspective or candidates, like how does it serve the whole industry? I think that's what puts us in a pretty unique situation here sometimes where we can have those conversations, ⁓ maybe with directors that don't snowboard or, you know, don't know much about what we do. speaker-1: Yeah, b and and being ends on on the terrain with the project delivering and ⁓ programming, o offering like scheduling all of this prog this those programs ⁓ allows you for that ongoing conversation. What are some of the can you, Adam, touch a little bit on like the program management duties of that that are enforcing that collaboration through the year round? 'Cause there's also some off season stuff that we're doing. speaker-0: Yeah, for sure. So well a lot of it is comes down to when things are happening. Like a lot of the 'cause I've been working on this big mountain project quite a bit, it's just those conversations with the resorts saying like, Well, we wanna run this and hopefully you're gonna let us run it, but you know, when is it gonna work best for you? And maybe that opens some opportunities for them to put some of their staff on it as well. Like A lot of these people have ⁓ staff in mind that would be a good fit for this program to help them grow and and also use up some of those RSP ⁓ opportunities that we give to those resorts as well. So I know that was a big conversation with ⁓ Lake Louise was like, Well, here's some dates we could put this course. Well, can we maybe move them to some different dates? 'Cause I have almost the full style of staff that could be interested in in joining up here. So A lot of the timing definitely comes into play and and then also, I know back when we were talking, you know, years of talking about park standards and stuff, it just comes down to like, hey, what would you want a trained instructor that went through one of our programs to be able to come out the end with? ⁓ what could we offer that maybe your in house training wouldn't offer? Yeah, those are some of the conversations that usually come up. speaker-1: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and we have those through the year, through the winter when we roll out, but also we we do attend different ⁓ industry meetings through the through the the off season mostly as well, like spring spring, summer and fall, where are the most of those industry meetings. And ⁓ this is also a good opportunity for us to connect with snow school management teams and resorts operation. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. And also our other associations, right? It's nice to have a conversation to see where their mindset is at with some of the ideas that we're usually spearheading anyways and they're just trying to keep up, you know? speaker-2: Mm-hmm. speaker-1: Yeah, like Canada Snowboard would be a good example. We we have been running ⁓ a week of events and ⁓ collaboration at the same time as a Canada, a big Canada Snowboard event in in the spring there in Sunshine, which is called the Gathering. You've probably heard about that. and the collaboration with the coaches being present and some of the key ⁓ staff members of Canada Snowboard is has been really appreciated from both organization, I believe. ⁓ it's really cool to be able to exchange while we are ⁓ running events at the same place. So once once a change is built to stay, it has to be adapted and clearly communicated so all members achieve consistency when when we use our material, obviously. And James, ⁓ how do our program managers and and the national technical team work together to ensure that our field evaluated from coast to coast? enterpret and deliver those ⁓ updates identically. speaker-0: Yeah, I th I mean the the biggest one is gonna be our evaluator training event that we we do every year. We have mandatory training for all of our evaluators. ⁓ they need to come and get the updates. those updates will be delivered by ⁓ sometimes ⁓ the people on this call, the NTT, high level evaluators, senior evaluators. and there are other opportunities throughout the season. We do ⁓ Zoom calls. For specific updates. We do mentoring on snow with senior evaluators, ⁓ sort of shadowing and helping out mentor ⁓ evaluators. There's a constant communication. I know all of the program managers are the same with their staff. So my my email, my phone is is always on the go and and open to having chats and making sure that ⁓ If there are any significant questions, if there's a change and perhaps somebody wasn't able to make an evaluator training, ⁓ they can come to me and say I can't make it. So we'll reschedule some on snow time where I can come out and ⁓ and update them there. ⁓ we can do telephone calls. ⁓ basically it's just ⁓ it's open communication, ⁓ starting at the evaluator training events ⁓ and making sure that throughout the season the same messages received and And we all collaborate to make sure we know what the message is, as you can see, ⁓ based on this ⁓ this little podcast we got going on. And then we just make sure that ⁓ throughout the season, lines of communication are open. And if there are any ⁓ essential updates, we also have ⁓ groups group chats for each individual level, level one, two, three, and four, park, ⁓ big mountain. All of these have their individual chats. So each individual evaluator that is at that level is a part of that chat and updates can go through those chats as well. speaker-2: Mm-hmm. speaker-1: And it's worth mentioning about our online evaluator training that is also a mandatory part of our ⁓ evaluator training. Like evaluators have to go through this mandatory every year. And there's always some resources that are ⁓ we're trying to vary the the the info that we bring up every year to touch on different topics. For example, one of our ⁓ chapter, not chapter, one of our the part of our evaluator training online is the how we deliver feedback. We have been building this one collaboratively over the past few years and it's ⁓ to help evaluators to do their job better. And there's one on hempity with the candidates, for example. That's another good one. And there's also those ones that are more directly related to the course content, the course schedule, any updates that the evaluators should know that if they are ⁓ reading this, because sometimes we have it we all have a bit of a disconnection. ⁓ during the summer, not for those evaluators who are currently teaching ⁓ in the southern hemisphere or in the domes, snow domes in ⁓ Asia. ⁓ so those people would be less disconnected. But for some of us taking a break of a two or three months off, it's it's you need to get back into it. So that's part of the regular routine of professional evaluators to just go and and and review all of those. So we've been putting a a bit more emphasis on those online updates since a few years now. speaker-0: think an another really important point is that we as the program managers and and the directors have a a very big emphasis on professional development. So making sure that ⁓ like our staff is actually in interested and involved in in getting better, ⁓ because we're interested and involved in getting better. ⁓ so making sure that we're we're creating that culture where it it's just easier to get the information out if you're interested in what is gonna make your job better and easier. speaker-1: Okay, ⁓ so we're boots on the ground doing lots of this ⁓ heavy lifting behind the scene. Jamie, what is your ⁓ personal favorite part about being a member of these ⁓ tech forces and c collaborating so closely? speaker-3: I think you hit the nail on the head there, Jen, with the word collaboration. ⁓ what's really cool about being part of this and a member of the the tech team is the ability to work with previous tech team members, program managers, instructors out there in the field working on stuff and really even listening to ski schools and the public and building something that is is really designed to keep people learning the snowboard, keep people taking lessons, improving. and coming back to do what we do. speaker-1: Nice. Love it. ⁓ our industry moves fast. We all know this. Our winters are also becoming increasingly unpredictable. Luke, how do you perceive the overall grout of our association? speaker-0: How do I perceive it? You mean in the future? How do I see it go in the future? Or how do I yeah? ⁓ yeah, this ⁓ climate change thing's really real. It throws a wrench into our plans as we really saw with BC last year. Lots of rain, early season, lots of cancellations and stuff. So I I mean, that's the cost of doing business in the outdoor industry, and especially the winter one there. Like you have to deal with the weather. I think that. ⁓ we're starting to see it like I mean it's pretty steady in terms of numbers. Like we're seeing growth, like not tremendous growth or anything like that. Like I see our material continuing to evolve into like with ⁓ an eye on quality, right? Like not necessarily over quantity. ⁓ but not resting on our laurels either in terms of like, you know, we have some competition like here and there, a little bit in Quebec, for example, which drives us to like look at different perhaps technical initiatives or courses. But honestly, I think our product is really strong, our brand is really strong ⁓ worldwide. ⁓ so I can only see like, you know, more opportunities presenting to suffer the association to like spread our product perhaps further worldwide a little bit and continue to improve the quality and ⁓ thus making the brand even stronger domestically. So speaker-2: Mm-hmm. Totally. speaker-0: I think the bedrock of our association is adaptability in our writing and our teaching. And I think that's just gonna play really strongly towards the future. ⁓ whether the environment changes, we can always, you know, adapt and pivot. And I think our association does a really good job at adapting to anything that comes along. Yeah, we're not specialists, right? We're all rounders. That's well said. We say that on the snow, like ⁓ you know, Jeff, our executive director has said it again last year is like, you know, we're all rounders. There's all these carving stuff you see a lot on YouTube that they just do that. Like we do that plus we do this, this, this, this and the other thing, right? Like so I think ⁓ well said, James. Like I think j we're set up for if there is a changes, we can pivot and adapt and that's the way we rule. speaker-1: Cool. Adam, did you wanted to add anything there? No. speaker-2: Okay. speaker-1: All right. With that comment, ⁓ we reached the end of this behind the scene episode. So thank you very much, guys. Thanks, ⁓ a huge thanks to you, Adam, Luke, James, and Jamie for joining us today and for the time and dedication you put in every year since a long time, ⁓ to make sure our curriculum is top tier and our program runs smoothly as well. Your dedication and the rest of the teen's dedication, to name only a few Lisa PMs and program managent BC, all of our tech team members and all of the staff and our board of directors, members of course, our instructor mentorship program leaders, our diversity and inclusivity advisory group, CASI evaluators and members in general is what keeps our association always evolving and our snowboarding community growing. So Members, you should stay tuned throughout the late summer and fall as we are approaching the launch of our official course calendars, including courses and events, special events. ⁓ Our Cassie website, newsletter, blog, social media platform will all keep you informed. Thank you so much for tuning in today. If you found value in today's episode, please make sure to leave us a review and hit that subscribe button if you haven't done that yet. Drop us a line at podcast at cassie-acms.com with any educational or technical questions or topics you'd like our tech forces to tackle next. And until the next time, enjoy the rest of your summer. Keep your knees mobile. And we'll see you on the next drop. speaker-0: What an outro. Nice work. Yeah. Keep your knees mobile.