Steve Zank: Welcome back to the Lutheran Worship Podcast, brought you by the Center for Worship Leadership at Concord University Irvine. My name is Steve Zank, joined by Kip Fox. Everyone. That's Kip.

Kip Fox: Okay.

Steve Zank: Hey, if you're finding us for the first time, welcome. Maybe you're searching the topic of confession absolution and you found us. So glad you did. We

Kip Fox: Whoa.

Steve Zank: are a podcast I know, right? Confession absolution. Is that why you said woo? Like you're

Kip Fox: No, I just yeah, just I can't imagine people out there just searching for that.

Steve Zank: Yeah. Yeah, I mean you gotta you gotta know your culture and the what people are looking for looking for nowadays. And you found us. Anyway, you will go back and find episodes about Lutheran worship and all kinds of different aspects of thinking it through. And I think you'll you'll find if you're not Lutheran there's even things to learn and think about. In the conversations we offer here. and so welcome. I'm glad you're here. Kip, it's good to see you again. today's show we're talking a little bit about confession absolution and especially in the sense that we're talking about it in the Lutheran worship context. And so Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Kip Fox: You know what, Steve, before you get too far into it, I just wanted to say that I'm sorry. And I think you know what this is about, but I I

Steve Zank: Yeah.

Kip Fox: truly I truly am sorry.

Steve Zank: Yeah, your heart felt fully sorry. Is

Kip Fox: Mm-hmm.

Steve Zank: your repentance sincere?

Kip Fox: I think so. How do you t how can you tell?

Steve Zank: Yeah. Kip, as always, I I don't I forgive you, Kip. I I yeah, I can't say no to you. I forgive you, Kip.

Kip Fox: Thanks, buddy. Sorry to interrupt.

Steve Zank: no, no, it's all right. I it you know, I think it's helpful because really what we're doing, we talk about confession absolution is just that. It's a relational experience, right? So when you do something wrong or don't live up to what you're called to in a relationship, you say you're sorry. You you say, you know, I I this is who I am and I'm sorry. And really what In my experience of confession, what happens is you get you just real. There's no pretense, there's no hiding yourself. You allow yourself to be real. And then as a sinner, it's just sort of obvious that that you need forgiveness. And today in our show on confession and absolution, what I'd like to do, Kip, is talk a little bit about some of the different forms you find, specifically in something like this Lutheran service book, which is a a fantastic resource. That's from the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod. And in it you'll find five different settings of Lutheran worship, hymns and creeds and all kinds of great stuff in there to find in the hymnal. But the reason why I bring it up is is Kip, I want to talk about the history of the confessions we find in there. And I think what you'll what you'll find is it's not gonna be exhaustive, but just want to raise a a few points of interest. The first thing I'll say as a point of caveat is I've published two things on this topic. I don't know how I got into the topic of confession absolution, but if you want, you can find I translated a a piece by Timothy Fuch, who's a German scholar who wrote about Luther's general confession prayer, and apt actually misnamed. And so he goes through a history of a of a certain kind of confession they're used to in Germany. That's actually related to our heritage as well in the LCMS. And also I wrote a piece for Lutheran Mission Matters on the same topic on confession absolution. So I wanna share with you some of the things I've learned along the way in my journey, studying it, and raise some issues to talk about. Was that cool, Kip?

Kip Fox: That's great. They say right about what you know.

Steve Zank: And podcasts about that too. My goodness gracious.

Kip Fox: There you go.

Steve Zank: okay, so the first thing w I want to mention is basically there's from my reading, there's two major s strands of confession absolution you'll find in Nellisby. So in the sixteenth century, just a little bit of of historical background now. In the sixteenth century, often if you think about Martin Luther, the Lutheran Reformation. a big part of that experience in in the Roman Catholic Church at the time was private confession and absolution. Private. You'd you'd go say all the things that you've done and the priest would give you, you know what he what you have to do, Kip, remember this word? Penance. You'd have to do penance, right? You I knew you were.

Kip Fox: Pennsylvania Penance. Yep.

Steve Zank: And so that was a big deal. And so we in America are so used to confession absolution being something we do at the beginning of a worship service. If you're part of the liturgical tradition in the 20th century in Lutheranism, you're really used to that. So,

Kip Fox: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Especially growing up.

Steve Zank: yeah, but that's not wasn't the case in the 16th century. It was, it was actually something that was introduced into the church in Lutheranism. It was mainly a thing that was done privately between a person who was penitential, who who felt the weight of sin, and a A priest or a pastor. Even in the early Lutheran tradition, that's how it was done. But something happened actually is very interesting is in Saxony, what they found was there was just too many people coming to confess their sins. It was too much. And so actually the it was i run the fifteen eighty in Saxony with the Elector August, and he appreciated Luther's approach and he was actually kind of concerned about what the preachers were telling him. Hey, we we're just like seeing confessions all day long. We can't do anything else. and so he asked, Can we do this in a general way? Instead of all these specific one on one meetings. Is it appropriate in Lutheranism to do confession absolution in a general way? And the court preachers cited this Naumberg liturgy and talked about how Luther had set set a precedent that this is okay for Lutherans to do, which is a general confession absolution. So instead of again, one person sitting with the priest confessing their specific sins, this is more in a the setting of divine service where the congregation is given words to say to confess their sins together. And the pastor absolves them together. And so that was a a big shift then in the sixteenth century for some communities. Not everyone did it this way, but some started to move in that direction. And of the communities

Kip Fox: Some of your some of sixteenth chenth century mega churches, you know, with only one pastor. Something like that.

Steve Zank: Yeah. You know how it is, man. Yeah, it's a lot you know, a lot of prisoners there you gotta gotta work with there. And they're you know, they were they were especially aware of their sin back then, I feel like. You know, now

Kip Fox: Mm-hmm.

Steve Zank: in America there's a little people are a little less less aware of it. But so then really two major confessions that were general survived into the American context. There were many many of them, and there was families of them, but the two that really survived into the American context came f one from Saxony and one from from Mecklenburg. So those are the two German territories that really lent their their formulas for general confession into the American Lutheran context. And they're they were different actually. The early Missourians, led by Walther and others speaking German, They were used to the Saxon one. And then over time, I don't know exactly the history of this, but the English speaking Lutherans, the Lutherans that had been in America for a while, that when the the Saxons came, were already in America, they were using the Mecklenburg confession. They were used to that. Now I don't know because the forums were so varied. I think actually that was the Mecklenburg Confession was actually something that those communities reclaimed in the the mid to late nineteenth century. I don't think it was their tradition, but they got used to it by the time of the common service in the late nineteenth century. All right, Kip. So all that to say, a little history talking about confession, absolutions, and Lutheranism. And really what you find then is it was not always done generally in the service, but when it started being done, it was really convenient. It took root, and generally two different ways of doing it, two different words, formulations made their way into the American context as major formulas for that.

Kip Fox: All right.

Steve Zank: A couple of other things I want to say about the 16th century context, The the first is in the 16th century, if a territory were to use general confession absolution during a service. It was about twice as likely that they would do it after the sermon. So so if you examine three different territories that all had general confession absolution, it was likely that two of them would celebrate that or or you know, enact that after the sermon, and one of them would do it at the outset or beginning of the service. So that's kind of interesting

Kip Fox: Interesting.

Steve Zank: historical detail. So now we get into the American context. We find a couple things interesting that I want to point out. The first thing now, let's hop in. Let's talk about these two different traditions. So the Mecklenburg tradition. This one is from the 1552 Mecklenburg agenda. And this tradition is the one that was picked up and used by the English speaking Lutherans, and then was brought into the Common Service, which has become No, the ubiquitous form of the divine service for American Lutheranism j generally. And so the Meckleberg confession in absolution then is the one that goes like this. Maybe you'll recognize it. beloved in the Lord

Kip Fox: You can do it in English,

Steve Zank: we won't do that in German though, we'll do it in English for So, beloved in the Lord, open your hearts. This is a a translation of the German. This is not drawing from where you find it here. Let us confess our sins to God and ask for forgiveness in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. Repeat after me with heartfelt desire towards God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit. So that's the the the priest or pastor saying that. And now

Kip Fox: Mm-hmm.

Steve Zank: the rest of the in this 50-52 one, he says, repeat after me. but all the words are said by the pastor or another minister or the choir. So there is no nothing marked congregation. but maybe it's assumed someone who can go who can read more deeply into this can find out if repeat after me means that they were saying it, you know, behind him or not. So he says this. Now this is gonna be in the first person, but if you put it in third person, you don't think you recognize it. I, a poor sinful man, confess to you, O Almighty God, my creator and redeemer. That I have sinned, not only in my thoughts, words, and works, but also in deeds, but also that I am by nature sinful and unclean, conceived and born in sin. But I have taken refuge in your endless mercy. I seek and desire grace for the sake of the Lord Jesus Christ. Have mercy on me, a poor sinner. So that's the Mecklenburg style. you'll trace it then into the common service at the beginning of the service. And it enters the LCMS tradition through the Evangelical Lutheran hymn book of 1912. I think that's the right date, 1912. And then that continues on into good old TLH, page five. Kip, remember that one?

Kip Fox: Absolutely.

Steve Zank: The red hymnal, right? and

Kip Fox: Bright red.

Steve Zank: it basically, yeah, not the LSB Maroon, but the bright red. And it basically follows the common service tradition, basically verbatim into TLH. Page five. And then it enters LW Divine Service Setting 1, the Mecklenburg Confession. In LW, Lutheran Worship, is this 1982, The blue one? Kip,

Kip Fox: This one right here. Mm-hmm.

Steve Zank: dude, you're doing you're doing some visual aids. I love this.

Kip Fox: Here.

Steve Zank: Okay, okay. So get the blue one. This one, they make a couple of changes to the language. So TLH says beseeching him. They change beseeching to imploring. Some of those things are just some language updates. And the big thing for LW was the change of the the language, the updated language. So instead of thou, you have you. Instead of wherefore, you have therefore. Instead of thine infinite, you have your boundless. believeth becomes beliefs, right? But generally the Mecklenburg confession then actually is received through the Lutheran worship tradition intact. So then finally you'll find that same Mecklenburg confession, almost exactly the same as was done in Mecklenburg in 5052. You'll find it in LSB setting three in in the most modern hymnal. that's one of the traditions that we have the Mecklenburg confession traced all the way through into LSB. All right, and so the Mecklenburg Confession, you see very clear things. You know, we have the idea of a poor sinner, we have the idea of by nature a sinful and unclean, sin against you in thought, word, and deed, and fleeing to God for it to his boundless mercy. Those are all very common things you see and they come from the Mecklenburg Confession. Kip, any thoughts about that? Questions or comments or Snyder Marks?

Kip Fox: Well, I don't you know, this is a bit off of maybe where we're headed, but it was i interesting to hear the German translation,

Steve Zank: this is a really interesting part of the conversation, is we we've done a great job maintaining this language from our past. And it's a heritage, and that's it's a good thing about that. But it's a translation. And sometimes some of the modern translation of these confessions texts don't quite capture all of the nuance in the original text. Let me give you one other example of that. the Saxon confession is the one that you may recognize that has this idea like this. It's sort of Almighty, gracious God, merciful Father, I a poor, miserable sinner, confess to you all my sins and transgressions. By which I have ever provoked you to anger and deserved your punishment, both temporal and eternal. that's that's more of a a translation of the original Dresden, fifteen seventy eight. but you that's that's that one that we say the Saxon confession in our tradition now we find in L S B I think three and five. Is that right?

Kip Fox: Okay. I'm looking.

Steve Zank: Look that I'll look that up later. but what's interesting is that that Saxon confession then clearly has this idea of I confessing my sins and transgressions, and these sins and transgressions have provoked you to anger, and by them I deserve your punishment. It's like a It's like one big sentiment, right?

Kip Fox: Mm-hmm.

Steve Zank: I'm a poor miserable sinner. I've sinned. and by those sins, I provoked you to anger, and I and by those sins, I deserve your punishment, both temporal and internal. And in in the German, it's one set, it's a long sentence, which German does a lot of. and so but what's funny is as you trace the the Saxon confession then into LSP and LW, something interesting happens and you get you begin getting like different sediments being put So like LW setting two has This to say Most Merciful God we confess to you that we are by nature sinful and unclean. that sounds like by nature a sinful unf unclean sounds like Mecklenburg to me. We have sinned against you in thought, word, and deed by what we have done and by what we have left undone, period. We have not loved you with our whole heart. We have not loved our neighbors as ourselves, period. We justly deserve your present and eternal punishment, period. And so The idea that we justly deserve your present and eternal punishment in the Saxon confession is not a sentence by itself. It's connected to all these

Kip Fox: Yeah. Yeah.

Steve Zank: other things. So you say, I'm a sinner, I've sinned against you. I confess to you all my sins and transgressions, and by these sins and transgressions I provoke you to anger, and by these sins and transgressions, you know, I deserve your punishment, both temporal and eternal. But do you see how the that way of saying it does not say, you know, I deserve your punishment? The different sense b

Kip Fox: Right, right. Mm-hmm.

Steve Zank: when you say by these acts, I deserve your punishment. But when you stand in confession at absolution, like you said, You said the the part refuge spoke to you, like I s I flee for refuge. There's a there's a posture. There's a posture you can take in confession that's that's it's

Kip Fox: Yeah, the refuge I I take refuge in your boundless mercy. Yeah. Right. Right.

Steve Zank: like, yeah, by my sins I deserve your punishment, but I'm in Christ and I confess to you my sins in Christ. And I

Kip Fox: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Steve Zank: it's it's a fine difference. But I I think

Kip Fox: Yeah.

Steve Zank: that there's some of those things happening in the English that may not totally capture the sense of the German as it draws the tradition forward into English.

Kip Fox: Would it be fair to say as well that, you know, in the decades or the years that these hymnals are are crafted, that co the cultural really the the way of speaking, the the sort of the just the cultural I even the zeitgeist of the time in America dictates how some of this is broken up or the posture or it's you know, some of these nuances you're talking about. I think about, you know,

Steve Zank: Totally.

Kip Fox: the fifties or the seventies or the nineties or today, like the how how people see themselves, how they see their interaction with the world and and with God and it's just interesting.

Steve Zank: It is. And I I think one great case study is the old nineteen sixty nine worship supplement, which is produced

Kip Fox: Mm-hmm.

Steve Zank: by a larger body of Lutherans, and in it you have a bunch of experimental services for the divine service. And one of them tries to take these confessions that they're drawing from the past, but give it very contemporary language. Like here's one, for example, from worship supplement sixty nine. Almighty God, Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Maker of all things, Judge of all people, we admit and confess our sinfulness. We have turned away from each other in our thinking, speaking, and doing. We have done the evil you forbid and have not done the good you demand. We do repent and are truly sorry for these sins. You see, you can kind of feel the the relation it has to older confessional forms, but the the new language. Have

Kip Fox: Mm-hmm.

Steve Zank: mercy on us, kind Father, because the obedience of our brother. Jesus Christ. What interesting emphasis, right? Our brother.

Kip Fox: Yeah, yeah.

Steve Zank: Forgive us all that is passed with the power of the Holy Spirit. Move us to serve you faithfully. Set our feet upon the new path of life and build your kingdom here through Jesus Christ our Lord. That's example of a confession then from that supplement.

Kip Fox: yeah, just nineteen sixty nine you think of the the great folk movement and we're all brothers and sisters and so Jesus

Steve Zank: Yes.

Kip Fox: as brother, while while true is emphasized there and it's it's interesting.

Steve Zank: Yes. And so what in this podcast, this short podcast, what we can do, I think, is to serve to broaden your imagination and way of thinking about confession absolution in the Lutheran context. The first thing we're kind of looking at is the fact that a general confession absolution, that is the whole church doing it together, has not always been done that way. It was something that was added to private. And even then, like Mecklenburg, we mentioned that the fifty fifty two Mecklenburg confession absolution. I think it was the sixteen hundred agenda. They went back to private. So that territory. So we've done the Mecklenburg Confession, I believe, the form longer than it was done in Mecklenburg, at least between fifteen fifty-two and sixteen hundred. And so the first thing to note is the way that we've gotten used to doing it in American Lutheranism feels very like concrete and and tied to tradition. And it is, but the tradition is much more varied than we maybe realize in the past. A couple of things we mentioned about that. You know, one is the form can change different forms, different ways of emphasizing confession. We also mentioned the location. So we mentioned that it in some instances at be beginning of the service, but most it was after the sermon. And actually here is a good point. If you have an LSB, you can go to LSB Divine Service Setting Four. And what you'll find there is actually something that's very interesting. And I'd I'd be really excited for a scholar to chime in on the YouTube comments. Or to step in and talk to us about what they think about this. But in divine service setting four, you have this formula that says this since we are gathered to hear God's word, call upon him in prayer and praise, and receive the body and blood of our Lord Jesus Christ in the fellowship of this altar, let us first consider our unworthiness and confess before God and one another that we have sinned. That sentiment, since we are gathered to hear God's word, when is the hearing gonna happen in this sentiment? In the future, right? We're gathered to hear God's word, to call upon him and receive his body and blood. So let us first consider our unworthiness and confess before we hear God's word, before you see how that's functioning here.

Kip Fox: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Steve Zank: Now what I find interesting is this comes from the Saxon tradition. and it was done in Walther's service, which he was drawing from Dresden and and from the Saxon tradition. And the way that they did it after the sermon was this way, beloved

Kip Fox: Yeah. Yeah.

Steve Zank: in Christ, since we are here, since we are gathered here in the name of Almighty God, and have heard his holy saving word.

Kip Fox: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Steve Zank: We will now humble ourselves before his exalted divine majesty and from the heart confess and acknowledge all our sins before him. So it's interesting as is from my reading, we're drawing

Kip Fox: Mm-hmm.

Steve Zank: from the Saxon tradition and the language of you know, we're gathered to hear God's word. But the way it functioned for the Saxons was you you already heard God's word, and the

Kip Fox: Right.

Steve Zank: confession itself was a response to it. But now when you put it in LSB four. What you have here is a looking forward to God's word and suggesting that before you hear God's word and the other things that they mention, let us first consider our unworthiness, which is interesting because it's a big change. And it could give the impression that it's a it's most appropriate before one hears God's word to confess your sins. And that's the second point I want to draw out for this conversation, Kip, which is the idea that. Be careful. Confession absolution does not have to begin your service. It may be in good order. I mean theologically doesn't have to. It may be a good choice for the sake of good order. It may be a good negotiated uniformity, potentially. that's something to you can work out and talk about amongst your different clergy and different people whose job is to talk about uniformity to work that out. But here Talking about theologically, it's not necessary to begin a service with confession absolution. You don't have to do that before you hear the word. In fact, like I said before, when it was practiced, general confession absolution in the 16th century by Lutherans, it was twice as likely to be after the sermon. And so if you were to go to the 16th century, the rarest form of confession would be to begin with it at the outset of the service. And so that's just an interesting thing to think about. I'm not here to say anything negative about the form of the LSP, just talking about as a historian, it's worth thinking about and asking questions like this. Keep this more of this conversation as you can guess, but I think it's a good maybe primer and starter. What do you think?

Kip Fox: I think it's great. I think it it falls in line once again with our our tension that we try to draw between, as you said, negotiated uniformity and freedom. And again, just bringing awareness to this through historical context. It's it's really fun. I think if you didn't feel like this was a enough of a Lutheran worship podcast before this one, this is gonna this I think we hit it right on the head here. This is w this is Lutheran worship.

Steve Zank: Yeah. So here's some things that I think is right based upon some preliminary research. The phrase We justly deserve your present and eternal punishment. Even though they weren't a standalone phrase, but connected to a larger phrase about like by virtue of these sinful behaviors. That comes from the Saxon confession. We justly deserve present eternal punishment. Comes from the Saxon. Mecklenburg, it seems like when we say we confess to you that we are by nature sinful and unclean, that's from the Mecklenburg. And other families, obviously, right? There's other families of c that are drawing from each other in the sixteenth century. And the idea of for the sake of your son Jesus Christ, have mercy on us. Then there's the the emphasis on thought, word, and deed, by what we have done and what we have left undone. I think those phrases are much older from what I could tell. I think they they're drawing those from the Roman Catholic Mass, and I think that those are very old phrases. Again This are preliminary research, so anyone w in the in the comments can mention what they think. Then there's these other phrases that come in, like for example, if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. That's obviously from the the scriptures. But it's interesting is that came in the tradition through LBW, Lucian Book of Worship, and and just a year after, I think, it was the Book of Common Prayer Edition that added that same phrase as a as a sentiment. and that again that continues, right? But if we confess our sins, God is faithful and just. And then you have this idea, so so that we may delight in your will and walk in your ways to the glory of your holy name. Those phrases can be found in the sixteen sixty two Book of Column Prayer from the Anglican tradition. They may have drawn that from Lutheran sources. I don't know. There was some back and forth going on between those traditions. and finally the words renew us and lead us seem to be new with LBW. So all those to say the form of confession absolution, there's editors who are in charge of working through liturgical material for hymnals, and they're doing their very best to figure out how to honor the tradition we've received, but also give it to the people today. To confess their sins to God. Because No matter what form of confession and absolution you use, it's true, always true. When you gather and you hear God's word, God's law is going to kill. It is going to bring

Kip Fox: Mm-hmm.

Steve Zank: to death the old sinful flesh. And it's appropriate that as we gather for worship to receive God's word. A very appropriate response is to confess our sin. And my teacher, Mike Mintendorf who always says the Greek homela geo is good here, hamilagoh is to basically repeat back. So I I learn I'm a sinner and I say, God, I'm a sinner, you know. And so his law does its work and I profess the truth that I am a sinner. And what good is a confession without an absolution? Amen. So then

Kip Fox: Mm-hmm.

Steve Zank: the the Pastor or priest would give the absolution, and this is one of the a critical aspects of the the Christian life, of the life of faith. And for us Lutherans today, it's become a part of the actual gathering of the service, even though it wasn't always that way. But I think it's just worth noting that for a lot of American Lutherans today, they think of confession and absolution as a very important part of the divine service, even though it's strictly not technically a required. To go through a divine service based upon our history. Kip, does that make sense?

Kip Fox: Makes a ton of sense. This has been fun.

Steve Zank: I

Kip Fox: Thanks for taking us on this journey, Steve. next week we are gonna dive into the first of several of our new songs from the Songwriter Initiative. We have an album called Always.

Steve Zank: That's exciting.

Kip Fox: Yeah, album called Always coming out here on August 28th.

Steve Zank: By the way, August twenty eighth, if you're watching when this drops, that's two days from now.

Kip Fox: Yeah, I was trying to getting confused. Yeah. So what day is it?

Steve Zank: I mean this is this is awesome. So check it out.

Kip Fox: N so next and then next Wednesday we'll start we'll go song by song and talk about the theology behind the song and why it was written and how it was written and it'll be a ton of fun. So we'll see you next week.