Angela Kezar: Hello and welcome back to Worthwhile. I'm Angela Kizar and I'm so glad to have you listening. It is a delight to have joining us today, Tilly Dillehay. Tilly is a mother to four, homeschooling pastor's wife. She's written extensively encouraging and very practical articles and books, including Seeing Green, Broken Bread, and one of my very favorites, My Dear Hemlock. That was such a helpful, wonderful conversation. Tilly is just a joy to speak with and such a blessing. I'm so thankful that she took the time to come on the show and share with us. I'm so grateful for her work and I hope that this will serve many women of all ages and, lengths of marriages and situations ⁓ I what I coming back to is just how ⁓ much of our marriages built ⁓ in as well as co-host of the Home Fires podcast and most recently her online course called Wife School, which is what we're here to talk about today. So welcome Tilly, I'm so glad to have you. Thank you for taking the time to join me. the really small, simple, although not easy, but simple little choices that we're making constantly. The lens that we think through, the way that we're speaking, our posture towards our husband, it all adds up over time. We are being shaped every day as we go through these things into women who can be such a blessing to our families. And like I said, none of this is complicated, but it does take intention and practice. It takes

Tilly Dillehay: Thanks so much for having me, Angela.

Angela Kezar: Now, I've read and listened to so much of what you've published and spoken on, but for those who don't know you yet, ⁓ would you us a little bit about yourself ⁓ and your and what brought you to making your wife's school course? How'd you get here?

Tilly Dillehay: Okay, yeah, I do live in a really small town ⁓ and me and husband have four children. So I'm homeschooling them ⁓ with most of time, I would say. And I started writing ⁓ maybe nine or 10 ago. I wrote my first book. I was always a writer, but I think of myself as kind of primarily a writer. And then this past summer, you know, ⁓ had my Dear Him lot out.

Angela Kezar: asking for forgiveness, learning, growing, going to the word and looking to the Lord to grow us as women and as wives to our particular husbands. I also just want to say Tilly is such a wealth of knowledge on this topic. She has spent years thinking, writing and teaching on these things and it really shows in how clear and practical her encouragement is. If you enjoyed this conversation, I would really recommend her wife's school course.

Tilly Dillehay: I guess a little over a year ago, And I had an interview this past summer with Alex Clark that it was just, it was a group of listeners, I think, that are a little bit different from my normal audience. And when I showed up for that interview, I thought it was gonna be just a straightforward, my dear Hemlock interview. But the host of that show had also read a couple of my articles for Desiring God on the contentious wife.

Angela Kezar: I'll have that linked in the show notes so you can easily find it on her website and it is full of wonderful information, really easy to use. It's a great biblical resource for all women, ⁓ young and old. And those of you if this episode was helpful to you, it would mean so much if you shared it with a friend or took a minute to leave a review.

Tilly Dillehay: So that was something I had written on and off about over at Desiring God. she, think, someone had sent them to her and she had had a bad breakup, I think, or just a breakup that was a little bit painful and wanted to, and was sort of applying the contentious wife ideas to her own life and wanted to talk more about them. So the whole interview ended up being about marriage, specifically about how wives can encourage

Angela Kezar: That's how this podcast reaches more women and I'm really grateful when you do that.

Tilly Dillehay: their husbands rather than being little police officers for their husbands basically. ⁓ ⁓ how, not only how scriptural that is, but how actually effective it is to make both ⁓ and wife happier in a marriage. Just how much power a wife has to improve her marriage just by changing the way she ⁓ to her husband mainly.

Angela Kezar: you

Tilly Dillehay: So ⁓ that interview I ended up getting a lot of messages and emails from just strangers asking a bunch of questions ⁓ I'd already been thinking a lot about this material but I ⁓ I would make it kind of the next project and the first thing I did was create this online course which is meant to be used in about six weeks and I have probably over 600 people in the course now but ⁓

Angela Kezar: Thank you much for being here and listening. Blessings on your week. And I will talk to you again soon.

Tilly Dillehay: It is also, it is meant to sort of deliver the material in a different way than how I usually do, which is in a book, you know. But also, I think for me it was meant to be sort of the first trial run where a bunch of people can try the material and sort of give me stories about how it's working for them. And then that can eventually go into a book in the long term, which is, you know, my normal way of putting material out there into the world. So. ⁓

Angela Kezar: Well

Tilly Dillehay: So yeah, I'm in conversations with my husband and just thinking about what the next step might look like. But in the meantime, the course is out there and it seems like people are connecting with it.

Angela Kezar: I definitely think so. And I think a book would be just such a good follow up to it, ⁓ which I loved. I actually love that once you explain that in the course, because you know, there's a lot of courses right now, but yours is, think, way more than just a course. Like you've got homework, it's broken down in such an organized way that it's so practical in your pictures that you paint there.

Tilly Dillehay: Mm-hmm.

Angela Kezar: I thought were really insightful and helpful for just to sort of step out of your own way and see objectively what are we doing in a marriage? Like what is the wife's job? What is our role? How can we do that well? And I actually, I'm listening to your videos now and I have been married also for about 14 years ⁓ have learned a lot of these same things through sort of trial and error and.

Tilly Dillehay: Good. Mm. Okay. Right,

Angela Kezar: through God has been very kind in giving me really good resources along the way. And ⁓ although I will say yours is probably one that I will, that will going forward probably be my number one recommend because it is so usable. Like the way you have it structured and the information in it is so applicable really easily. I love that. But even so even as somebody who

Tilly Dillehay: Hmm. Good, good.

Angela Kezar: Like I really love, I love my marriage. It's going really well. We've learned a lot of things. I still felt so encouraged. ⁓ actually reminded me ⁓ so I love to cook and I love to read cookbooks. But sometimes, ⁓ as somebody who does this every day, all day long, I'm cooking for people all the time and have learned a lot over my life of doing that, there's still times that like you get a new cookbook.

Tilly Dillehay: Right? Mm-hmm.

Angela Kezar: and you read it and it's like, ⁓ this is, I know this, but this is new and it's refreshing. And, you know, maybe you've made a hundred quiches, but then you read someone else's way of doing it or a new ingredient or something. And you're like, this is, ⁓ is so great. I can use this going forward and it just makes your tools. ⁓ just have a bigger variety of tools.

Tilly Dillehay: Mm-hmm, yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Well, this is how we learn. know, this is what I'm observing this in homeschooling all the time that like you learn something like three or four different times and then you know it well. Or sometimes you already kind of know something, but it's really great to know why it works. Like why is it that Akish does this thing or this thing, you know, and kind of understanding a little better behind the scenes, I think helps you to apply it in more places maybe. And with the marriage stuff

Angela Kezar: Yes.

Tilly Dillehay: I feel like my frustration sometimes when I read marriage material or listen to marriage material is that there's so many great resources out there that give you a wonderful, biblical foundation for this is what marriage is meant to be. It's Christ in the church. A wife is to submit to her husband. A husband's to love his wife. And you're like, yes, okay, I'm on board, I get this. But then you realize like, everything that you've ever been taught or heard in your all of your instincts have been trained by a feminist culture by maybe a family of origin where the marriage was super unhealthy so the way they even spoke to each other or the way that you know or maybe maybe your parents were great but somehow you didn't intake that or didn't make its way into your instincts I do think a lot of our instincts and how we relate to to the opposite gender and to people you know

Angela Kezar: Mm-hmm.

Tilly Dillehay: A lot of that comes just from osmosis from the family that we grew up in. ⁓ So it's like, yes, I would love to be a respectful wife, but you actually don't even know what a voice would sound like if it was respectful. You don't even know how a wife can graciously be an intelligent, productive, highly competent individual and also

Angela Kezar: Yeah. You

Tilly Dillehay: honor and respect and kind of wait on the lead of her husband. So those are the kinds of things that I thought that I knew really well when I got married. I thought I would be really good at these things. ⁓ I thought my instincts were better than they really were and they just weren't. They weren't as great as I thought and I could tell because I was getting sort of ⁓ just an sometimes from my husband that I, that

Angela Kezar: Haha. Mm-hmm.

Tilly Dillehay: I had no idea where it was coming from. Obviously it's sin, you know, and that's part of it. I just know, like, I felt like I was getting it at the same times and for the same reasons that were mystifying to me. And I didn't understand how much I was contributing to it, you know, until I started to learn some of these things.

Angela Kezar: Mm-hmm. in one of the episodes, you talk about expecting more enjoyment and happiness in your marriage than what we're often expecting. And I think for a lot of people who haven't seen a wonderful marriage, and even for people who have, once you're actually the person in the marriage, there is still just this learning curve. You're figuring out a particular person, two particular people, yourself and your husband. So how do you?

Tilly Dillehay: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah, right.

Angela Kezar: raise your expectations for more joy and happiness and enjoyment?

Tilly Dillehay: Yeah, I think I was trying to speak to that wife who's kind of settled into, I don't really like my husband. We have a lot of just low level irritability with each other. Maybe it's not a huge knock down drag out issue all the time, we're not great companions with each other. like we're not super functional with how we make decisions. There's always a little frustration, a just awkward. push and pull. And ⁓ the same time, so those are on the one hand you can be like, well, that's fine. This is how life is. We kind of tolerate each other. We will grow to a slightly rude middle and old age together. ⁓ a little bit on each other's nerves. ⁓ this is just how life is, because we're sinners living together. ⁓ is, think, sometimes also what you will hear from married couples who have stayed together but kind of tolerated each other for years as you get the same message from them. Or on the other hand, our expectations are also shaped by like this totally bizarre rom-com ⁓ that I also talk about in that same video where I'm like, okay, ⁓ you get married and even after you're married, you've been very shaped by like the leading men that you've watched for years or ⁓ for years. So you're

Angela Kezar: Yeah.

Tilly Dillehay: your Darcy's, your Jim from the Office, ⁓ your Hugh Grant's and your Tom Hanks and whoever those people are that you grew up watching. I think I date myself a lot in that section because I ⁓ about Tom Hanks which ⁓ Hanks was like the leading guy that I watched growing up so he's always like the rom-com leading guy. ⁓ But also Jim from the Office. I've seen memes before about

Angela Kezar: Yeah. Mm-hmm. No. That's so funny.

Tilly Dillehay: about the office and ⁓ I saw a meme once where it was a guy posted, if your girlfriend is watching the office she's not dating you, she's dating Jim. And I thought, ooh, ouch, yeah, I was just like, that is such a painful ⁓ you know, ⁓ a guy would know ⁓ in love with this fictional character who doesn't exist. But the fact is, we have been told

Angela Kezar: ⁓ that's sad.

Tilly Dillehay: for our entire lives that love is gonna look a certain way. We've been fed the myth of like being in love, capital I, capital L, in love, and that being somehow this really defined but undefinable term in all of the movies, in all of the books where at some point someone's gonna ask the girl like, okay, but yes, but are you in love? And the person knows exactly what they're talking about, which to me is like.

Angela Kezar: Mm-hmm.

Tilly Dillehay: what are you talking about exactly? Like how do you define that, this thing that you know may change? It's like there's no definition for it but it's treated like it's a legal term, almost like are you married? And yet there are people on Instagram who are using in love and similar ideas to in love as more binding, more like actionable, and more of a big deal question.

Angela Kezar: Hahaha Right.

Tilly Dillehay: then are you married? know, like have you committed your entire life to this person? Because yeah, you could be married, whatever, but are you in love? ⁓ if you are, then you stay with that person. ⁓

Angela Kezar: that makes sense because people do use that as an out, ⁓ right? they use it like you said more committed than ⁓ actual marriage. Like when you're married, you are married no matter what your feelings are feeling versus versus. Yeah.

Tilly Dillehay: They do. Right. That's right, and marriage is an actual, definable term, ⁓ ⁓ love is not, you know, and it is a changing thing,

Angela Kezar: Do you feel like people just don't understand love? Like in a non-Christian worldview, it is hard to understand because I think they're talking about love, like the affection, the feeling of love versus biblical love, is giving someone what God has called you to give them in that relationship. Do you think ⁓ that that definition missing is one of the main things we're running into with this whole ⁓ struggle?

Tilly Dillehay: Right, yes. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, I think so. And you may understand that on paper and be like, okay, yeah, like, I affirm this, but it's still part of your framing of the world on some level, that you are looking at your marriage and thinking like, okay, if I'm not feeling it, if we have an off week, if he doesn't have the same sense of humor as me, if he is ever... There's also like the character in all the movies where it's like a perfectly normal great boyfriend character, but he's like responsible and goes to work every day and is interested in his job. ⁓ that is a ⁓ that you're supposed to break up with him, you know, in the movie. ⁓ you're just like, this is a person, this is a marrying kind of person. he's, you know, ⁓ there may, yeah, obviously there are other reasons maybe in those movies, but I'm just saying the normal, like the mundane.

Angela Kezar: You

Tilly Dillehay: and ⁓ the ⁓ of non-violent ⁓ that normal everyday with somebody, those are all the things that we've been taught to throw away in a relationship. Those are all the things that we've been taught to totally devalue ⁓ and say that's not, of these things are a sign that you're with the wrong guy. So those kind of two extremes, like having these ⁓ idealistic type expectations for your relationships. But then also just settling into a subpar married life. ⁓ think really our should be, yes the feelings are gonna ebb and flow, yes you're not ⁓ gonna be married to Darcy. but you can actually expect that there is a level of kindness and patience and growing affection and respect in your marriage as the years go by, where you can look back a year from now and say, things are sweeter than they were last year. And you can look back five years ago and think, things are sweeter now than they were five years ago. We know each other better, but also,

Angela Kezar: Mm-hmm.

Tilly Dillehay: If you learn to be kind and respectful to your husband, you will get some really good fruit. You'll get really good fruit in your own heart, but you're also most likely, particularly if you're married to a believer, you're going to get some really good fruit out of him that you maybe never thought you would see. And I'm just here to say, things can be a lot sweeter than you ever thought they could be. especially if you've been living in frustration for a lot of years.

Angela Kezar: Yeah. And so women are really good at telling ourselves stories. I think a lot of women, especially women who are at home, I think it's just sort of comes naturally. doing a lot of things where you just have time to think. And we're often known to be ⁓ thinking conversations or playing back scenarios. ⁓ How we use that to our advantage and how does that become an area where we can slip into using it?

Tilly Dillehay: Mmm. ⁓

Angela Kezar: to hurt our marriage, maybe not even intentionally, but how should we be cautious around the stories we're telling ourselves about our husband?

Tilly Dillehay: Yeah, so we are constantly kind of narrating the story of who our husband is, what our marriage is like, and then what our life is like. And I don't know how close a connection I made in the videos. I know that towards the end of Hemlock, there's a chapter talking about just gratitude and how the patient in that book figures out that all of her life is an opportunity to be

Angela Kezar: Mm-hmm.

Tilly Dillehay: overwhelmed with great with gratefulness for every single instance of God's kindness to her and all the evidence there is in her life of his kindness and goodness or every everything in her life can be further evidence to her that she's unloved overlooked and basically deserves so much better than what she's getting you know and I would say if you learn this lesson you should be learning it with both your husband and with God at the same time

Angela Kezar: Mm-hmm.

Tilly Dillehay: because what you're learning to do is to wake up every day and say, am actively, I'm not passively just letting stories come through my mind. I'm waking up today to tell myself the story of what is true about what God has done for me and also to tell myself a story of gratitude for the good things that my husband is doing. Like he is going to work today to support me. I'm able to be here in this home under this roof because he's going to work every day to support me and maybe these kids. He came home to me tonight instead of being ⁓ in the pub or whatever. Like how many women would have been so glad that their husbands would just, if they would just come home at the end of the workday. You know, he maybe He takes us to church. Like how many women are waiting year in and year out for the day that their husband will go to church with them. So just training yourself to watch for and tell yourself a story about how fortunate you are to be married to a man who does what he says he's gonna do in these particular areas. Every husband, every husband that every woman has is failing in some area of life. Like he is not great, he's not a reader, he's not a studier, maybe he's not a guy who likes to work out. you know, maybe he's not the best with numbers or organization or whatever. we all, every woman if you ask her, she knows what her husband is not great at because she's been sitting there watching him for their entire married life. She knows. She knows what those things are and she knew about them within a couple of years, probably a couple months. If ⁓ not then soon after they had kids, that's when she found out about them. ⁓ But thing is like, she knows those things and your eye...

Angela Kezar: Hahaha

Tilly Dillehay: Your flesh naturally wants to know about those things. Like your eye is drawn to the less than perfect, ⁓ just in your husband, but in your kids too. And you have to train your eye to look instead at those things that are good ⁓ lovely and commendable, and then commend them. ⁓ also tell yourself the story ⁓ what those things are throughout the day.

Angela Kezar: Mm-hmm. Yeah, do you think I've heard the phrase, think it's bestows loveliness. And I think does that apply here ⁓ that more ⁓ you the good in your marriage, the more you will reap good, really? Like you're going to get more of what you're feeding. ⁓

Tilly Dillehay: Mm. get more of that. That's right. That's right. That's right. You get more of what you're feeding for sure. when he, when he starts, so there's the, level of just your thoughts because everybody knows what it's like when he walks in the room at the end of the day or just in the, in the, at the, the evening, at some point he walks in the room and you've been telling yourself the story about how ridiculous it is that he still hasn't fixed the toilet. and it's been broken for two weeks. When you've been telling yourself that story, he has no idea what story you've been telling yourself, but he's still gonna get the cold reception based on what story you've been busy weaving for yourself at the kitchen sink. And it's like, why not use that, take that thought captive, and instead prepare your heart to love him well by telling.

Angela Kezar: Mm-hmm.

Tilly Dillehay: different story that is also true. That's the other thing is recognizing like you're not lying to yourself about your husband. You're not making up things that are not true about him, but you are taking a lot of things that could be viewed from a negative or a positive perspective and you're choosing to look at them from a grateful perspective. Like the same behavior of his like he took the kids for donuts ⁓ could an opportunity for gratitude. that he cares to go do things like that with your kids, or it could be an opportunity for you to weave that, can't believe he's giving them sugar, you know, narrative. So there are so many things are like that though, where there is, there's a positive spin and a negative spin. And I say that as a former journalist, which is what I say in this part of the chapter is that journalism understands this, that every single journalist is biased and chooses which details to include and which not to include, and then how.

Angela Kezar: Hahaha. ⁓ yeah.

Tilly Dillehay: how to even tell the story. Every woman is a journalist.

Angela Kezar: Yeah, that is, I think, so foundational, so important. It makes a big difference. ⁓ Would you say that there is a big effect on a man to hear that his wife believes in him and trusts him?

Tilly Dillehay: Mm-hmm. Absolutely, I mean I think this is like this is like the food and and water and air of his life in the marriage at least This is ⁓ is so fundamentally important for a man to hear from his wife If you think that he doesn't care what you think ⁓ You were super wrong ⁓ B. It is possible that he's been getting ⁓ ⁓ bits of negative tiny little bits of negative feedback from you on a regular enough basis that he has shut down the part of himself that's receptive to what you think. Where he has said, okay, I cannot handle that rejection, those little tidbits of rejection. I know what she thinks of me and I'm going to have to shut that down in order just for self preservation because their sensitivity to your opinion is much higher than you might think it is. But the fact is, the power that you have to speak energy and life and and motive like his his Engine gets stronger. He's like what can I do? He's looking around what what can I do to hear more? About what she thinks about how you know how grateful she is that I went and did this thing or did that thing You just there's no better way To power up and level up your husband than to praise him as often as you can

Angela Kezar: Mm-hmm. What about the women who hear that and they do that and they're trying it, but they're not really comfortable giving him the reins, so to speak. the analogy I thought of, I actually realized I don't even know if this is how these cars work, those driver's ed cars ⁓ where ⁓ the student's driving but teacher like, a brake on their side still. ⁓ How? ⁓

Tilly Dillehay: and thank him. Mm. Mm-hmm. huh.

Angela Kezar: What do you think, the woman who hears this? but they're still like, ⁓ this is great, he can that, and I will praise him, but also I'm keeping. I'm keeping the brakes on my side. I need to be able to ⁓ control this in the end. Is that more detrimental than think it is if they still feel like I need to just have my hand on the reins so that I can ⁓ manage this if things go

Tilly Dillehay: Mm-hmm. Mm. Absolutely, yeah. So there's another element of this beyond praising ⁓ and thank you where you have to learn as a wife to take your hand off the wheel and see yourself as not needing to control ⁓ him ⁓ also main job is not to prevent mistakes from happening. And I think that's one of the things that is. really difficult, especially for women who are maybe more fear-oriented or more control-oriented or maybe who have ⁓ the boss in like professional situations. I was just talking to a friend today who ⁓ a boss, you know, and then she got married and ⁓ my husband doesn't want me to be his boss. In fact, he finds that very offensive when I try to boss him. But just recognizing you probably cannot prevent mistakes from happening. And even if you could, the cost to your relationship is so high when you try to prevent mistakes from happening by controlling him, by telling him how to do something, by trying to get out ahead and make decisions that really he's the one who needs to be making. by doing a lot of telling him how you would it or... You know, there are a lot of ways we do this. that's a really analogy though, I think I've used cars here and there as an illustration. So the ⁓ driver's car where you've got a brake. ⁓ That's funny. ⁓

Angela Kezar: ⁓ it's funny. Okay, so I've heard someone use this phrase that women can think they're the Holy Spirit's little helper. ⁓ Do think that women can spend this in their head, this idea that they're helping or motivating or something ⁓ to their husband be more righteous or to look better to everyone ⁓ while some serious damage? that being a faithful to the Lord kind of wife?

Tilly Dillehay: Yes, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's true that we are his helper. That part of it is totally true. We were given that role. So the question is just to ask, all right, what does that actually look like on the ground? What is the best way that I can help him? And the other problem is that we were also told, wives submit to your husbands in everything as unto the Lord, which means we need to figure out what that means on the ground. What does that look like? And it could sound to a lot of women like those two verses are ⁓ somehow Negating each other like that. There's a conflict between them because we're like well How can I help him ⁓ if don't tell him? What he needs to do to improve himself how he needs to get closer to the Lord how he needs to lead the family better Like he's not doing these things. He ought to be doing these things and so I've got to help him ⁓ and think we're just majorly misunderstanding what it looks like to help a man in truth. think you letting him know the areas that he's failing is a lot less helpful than you think it is. But there are a lot of ways I think that we can, in a very feminine way, invite him ⁓ the leadership position. And I think we do this more by going ahead and taking the following position in an active way, by doing things like,

Angela Kezar: Mm-hmm.

Tilly Dillehay: How would you like, or what book would you like me to use for spiritual formation for the kids, like in home school or whatever, What would you like me to do about X with this discipline situation with the kids? How do you want me to handle ⁓ blah? Or even just asking for his help. Like, ⁓ having a problem with these two children. Could you intervene? ⁓ I kind of a worksheet on this, just ways of, ⁓ I call this,

Angela Kezar: ⁓ huh.

Tilly Dillehay: proactive submission where we basically invite him into the leadership role, not by saying you really ought to lead, but by saying, by actually giving him specific opportunities to lead, by saying what would you like to make decisions to, and that just by basically asking for his input, asking for his decision, asking for his help maybe, and then going with, without,

Angela Kezar: Mm-hmm.

Tilly Dillehay: any pushback or friction you know going with the thing that he that he suggests or the thing like any leadership that he does take you go with it you go with it you know hard because that's another signal to him of ⁓ she's actually leadable like when i suggest something she's not going to counter suggest something she's going to just say great and go with it you know so there are a lot of ways that we can ⁓

Angela Kezar: Mm-hmm. Right.

Tilly Dillehay: show a sort of feminine invitation to leadership without constantly being like, we really need to do family devotions. You really need to be doing this. We really need to be doing this. Yeah.

Angela Kezar: Yeah, that just quickly turns into nagging. Even if it started out with a good intention.

Tilly Dillehay: It does, right?

Angela Kezar: Okay. So when the Bible ⁓ for a woman to win her husband without a word, ⁓ does a wife win her husband without a word? And this is one I've talked to many, many women ⁓ the years with this one. I love that verse. ⁓ think that it takes a placing your faith in the Lord. ⁓ moves your faith to actually the Lord is doing things here ⁓ and cares about me. And he cares about me within this marriage.

Tilly Dillehay: Yes. Yeah.

Angela Kezar: do you ⁓ what something where ⁓ or it something that we can trust the Lord when he commands it obey what he says and then he brings the fruit is that essentially what you would say that ⁓ that is talking about

Tilly Dillehay: Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, think that verse is so encouraging, not just to wives with not unbelieving husbands, but also to wives with believing husbands, because I think it's a great example as a wife with a believing husband to look at that say, wow, if the Lord is asking that, even of a wife whose husband doesn't believe, and also it's so clear from the passage, like, your hope isn't in the husband in this case. So even if you're married to a Christian man, your hope is not in your Christian man. just like it wouldn't be in your non-Christian husband. So the Lord is still saying, no, you're doing this as unto me, and you're doing it because it's lovely, because it adorns the gospel, and as a little side note, it's also more effective in actually winning your husband's heart. But aside even from that, like, do it because it does. It's a lovely way to adorn the gospel and that's the way that passage presents it. It's like this is your adornment as a meek and a quiet spirit. That's lovely. So how much more as the wife of a Christian husband who does have some clue of what's important and what's good can we trust the Lord ⁓ ⁓ for the fruit and you don't know what that fruit is going to look like. The fruit could be your children or your husband is always an unbeliever and your children ⁓ that that lovely fruit in your life. and are one to the gospel because of watching you, you know. never know what the fruit will be.

Angela Kezar: Yeah, but it's always better and sweeter than we hoped for. Okay, so I to sort of to some practices that can strengthen or damage ⁓ a marriage because a of these things seem like ⁓ they're very closely, like a pivot point. So we can either do this or we can do this. We can strengthen or we can damage. ⁓ So how are wives fueling

Tilly Dillehay: But that's right, that's right.

Angela Kezar: trouble in their marriage, what would you say just in your experience and with the women the course and through conversations, ⁓ seems to be ⁓ biggest mistake that women find that they're making

Tilly Dillehay: Yeah, I think the biggest thing is just the very, simple, which is what I've kind of condensed it to on a lot of the social media that I've been trying to do, is just the fuel tank check engine light. That very simple change I think is the most powerful and I won't say it's easy exactly, because depending on the habits, like it may not be easy exactly, but it's simple even if it's not easy. And that's just the flipping your understanding to say, okay, I'm not.

Angela Kezar: Yeah

Tilly Dillehay: the check engine light in this relationship. That's not my primary role, is to be checking for what's wrong and making sure that he knows about what is going wrong in him or in the marriage. My primary main job to focus on at least is I'm a fuel tank. Like I bring fuel of rest ⁓ and ⁓ and ⁓ and... and I can make the engine go so much better and faster that way than by beeping constantly. there several other little pivot points like you're describing, but I think that's probably the biggest and simplest. ⁓

Angela Kezar: I love that and I love your, ⁓ the words that you use, the fuel tank wife or the check engine light, because it's easy to remember and to apply quickly in those times where you do have to decide what am I going to do right now? Which direction am I going to go? I loved those little handholds. What about a wife who feels like she's doing it? She feels like she's giving a lot of good feedback and respect ⁓ doing the motions.

Tilly Dillehay: Mm-hmm.

Angela Kezar: but he knows and she knows that it's not genuine or that this is through gritted teeth kind of a thing. ⁓ do we as wives cultivate a true, ⁓ ⁓ ⁓ ⁓ Like a real ⁓ not just a surface level ⁓ of respect.

Tilly Dillehay: Mm. Well, gotta give it a little bit of time, I think, first of all. But also I would say, while you're focusing on this sort fuel-take thing and on the submission rather than control thing, on the other side from this, I would say at the same time, you also need to be cultivating this just, I need to learn to enjoy life independently of what my husband is doing today. Yes, I do. It does affect me a lot like what he's doing or not doing whether he brings flowers or speaks kindly or whatever Yes, but but I have a spiritual life that needs to be separate from him I have things that I enjoy doing like taking a walk or Taking a nap, you know or reading a book ⁓ Like there are things you could call this self-care if you want to call it that but there are things we do that are not dependent on him, but are us just saying, am a person before God and he is not responsible to make me happy. I have to know how to be happy without requiring that he make me happy. Does that make sense? So some of this is just like learning to smile. When you've been in this...

Angela Kezar: Mm-hmm, totally.

Tilly Dillehay: mood or state for months and months and months, know, maybe hormones are part of it, you know, there's all, or you're like, you've been tired with little children for six months and you suddenly come up for air and realize I have a little fussy face on all the time. Like I'm always frowning all day long and just realizing like no one can make me smile. I'm going to have to decide, I'm going to just artificially smile more and

Angela Kezar: Mm-hmm.

Tilly Dillehay: hormones come in to support that. Like a lot of things change when you decide, okay, I'm gonna have to smile. So I do think like the words that you're saying to your husband, saying these things with a smile, maybe it feels forced, maybe it feels a little weird, but ⁓ can just say your ⁓ emotions behavior, just like behavior follows your emotions. So a lot of the way that you feel can change depending on how you're acting. ⁓ So, this is again, this is against everything we've been taught since we were little, that like you have to

Angela Kezar: Mm-hmm.

Tilly Dillehay: act how you feel, you have to express your emotions or else they're gonna be, you're gonna be ruined in some way. Like that just hasn't been my experience in life, so.

Angela Kezar: No, no, the emotions usually don't lead us to bright and cheery places all the time on their own.

Tilly Dillehay: Right, right. It's just nice to know like, okay, I don't have to act how I feel. This is something I tell my little, girls. You don't have to act the way you feel. You can smile. And it does tend to help the way you feel. So.

Angela Kezar: Right. Mm-hmm. Right, and it actually is not, a false. Like it's not a lie ⁓ to just It's choosing, especially because as Christian women, by ⁓ doing that, the unspoken part of that ⁓ is what talked about at the beginning. You're actually choosing, ⁓ yes, ⁓ choosing be joyful about ⁓ whatever's in of us. ⁓ And then like you said, as soon as you do that, truly, once you're aligned with the Lord,

Tilly Dillehay: It's not a lie. Yes, you're affirming something that's true about what God did for you. Mm-hmm. Yes.

Angela Kezar: on that he gave me this, I'll be thankful for it, then yeah, the emotions, the feelings follow right away. And at least in my experience, there's nothing in the world that a husband loves more than a fun wife. Like he's married to...

Tilly Dillehay: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, it's true. they just they're gonna look forward to coming home to a person who is smiling at them, you know, when they come in the door like happy, happy to see them. I just I don't know any person who I'm sure he can he can muscle through it like he can he can rise above he can come and serve when he gets home and help you out especially you know, it's been a hard day. But if that's not what he's used to seeing he's used to seeing a cheerful woman when he comes home. He has so much more of a ⁓ this isn't normal. I need to do something to help with this or to change this than if every day when he comes home what he's met with is a terrible day again, like could you please just do something about, you know, just that greeting, like if that's what he's used to, then there's no, like you begin to think there's nothing I can really do to change this person's basic base level temperament. This person is generally just kind of unhappy and difficult to be around,

Angela Kezar: ⁓ huh, the grumpy. Our pastor often says that we should treat our spouse, in our case, our husband, ⁓ more than a friend, but never less than a friend. ⁓ I think that applies directly to this. Like, would you ⁓ your friend that way with ⁓ ⁓ ⁓ you be that? Yeah, would you be that kind of a friend to a friend? It's ⁓ such a funny thing that we can get.

Tilly Dillehay: Hmm, yeah, that's good. Right, yeah, like if your friend walked in the door. Yeah. Yeah, right.

Angela Kezar: we know that, we would just intuitively know it in a friendship, but then we forget in a marriage that a marriage is never less than a friendship. It's always ⁓ be more. ⁓

Tilly Dillehay: Yeah. And like this is in many ways this is a measure of what kind of person you are. Like have you learned to love the people who you actually live with? And how much more that says about you than whether you're a good friend to other women. I you could be both but I'm just saying you know if you haven't learned.

Angela Kezar: Mm-hmm. Well, in one, like, yeah, if you're practicing that in your marriage, it probably makes you a better friend everywhere.

Tilly Dillehay: better friend too. Yep.

Angela Kezar: okay, I'd to just as ⁓ as we wrap this up, This one is for the women who I know are listening who are newly married. ⁓ And that's such a fun time, a huge time of learning. And I remember ⁓ many things and I needed your ⁓ But ⁓ to those young married women, are the top things they can do? ⁓ today to set their marriage up for a huge success. Like how can they really lay the groundwork, you know, get the soil right in the garden now if they have the opportunity.

Tilly Dillehay: Mm-hmm. Yeah, I think this is such a great time for you to start setting these habits in place of how you speak and also how you, particularly in those first couple years, how you refrain from going in and saving him from mistakes. So this is the time to be like, okay, socially, he's gonna say things that embarrass you. You don't need to go back and lay the groundwork about what he said wrong at the party. Like this is the perfect time to not do that. And just as you are learning, he will learn things. And you don't have to be the one to teach those things to him. And things like ⁓ management or work-related things or whatever, ⁓ fixing car. There are all kinds of things that you can step back and let him learn or do ⁓ and try to manage. And early in the marriage is when the habits are getting set. for both of you of like him being like, okay, no, she's not gonna let me do that by myself or she's gonna come in and plan all the dates, ⁓ know, so that I'd never get a chance to plan them. When you have kids, the stakes go way up where suddenly both of you realize, ⁓ this really matters now. Like these decisions can actually hurt people, you know, or change the way that our home culture is. Like these things matter. And that's when you're gonna be tested on a much ⁓ a next level way, but you can still be practicing those things really early on and then do a refresher on the things when the first children come because that's when you're going to really be tested and when it's going to really matter that your husband see himself as a leader in thehome

Angela Kezar: Great. Okay, one final question, ⁓ If a wife really takes these things seriously, cultivating respect, gratitude, believing in her husband, what kind of marriage do you think can hope to have? And obviously the fruit will vary, but say 20, 30 years down the road, what is she aiming for?

Tilly Dillehay: So I just had a couple over for brunch on Saturday who've been married for I think more than 35 years. I actually didn't ask them how many years it's been, but I've known them for a long time. They've been married for a long time. And they are the kind of couple who they hold hands when they're sitting on the couch near each other. They speak so respectfully and kindly to each other. They go for walks together. They... love to travel together. Like they're in the time where the hardest season of what they went through together is over. Like their children are mostly grown, but they've been really tested during those years. And on the other side is sweetness and mutual trust, you know, and respect. He knows that even when the stakes are really high, she's going to trust the Lord enough to trust him to make decisions. She knows that he is motivated to protect her. to provide the money for the household, ⁓ to ⁓ there. The fruit in their children's lives, now their grandchildren's lives, this is a multi-generational thing that you're building when you learn to speak respectfully to your husband. ⁓ even if you are married to an unbeliever and you have a different kind of legacy, just recognize, If you don't leave anything else in this world, leaving a history of being a respectful and kind wife is probably the most powerful thing that you can do. And I just, can't overestimate enough what a big deal this is.

Angela Kezar: Well, thank you. I love that and I look forward to that and hope that this blesses so many families and really creates this culture of women who are serving and loving their families well. And I think that you and everything that you're teaching is a huge push in that direction. So thank you for all that you're doing. I appreciate your work and I know other people will. So thank you for your time today and I look forward to the book and to other things to come. ⁓ a great day, Tilly.

Tilly Dillehay: Thanks so much. Okay,