Shane Allen: We just started this series called Crucial Conversation, where what we're doing is we're looking at different crucial conversations in the Bible. And a crucial conversation is simply a conversation where we know that the stakes are high, emotions can run strong, and the outcome of that conversation, it matters. And it seems like all the time we're running into these conversations, whether we want to or not. And this past weekend we looked at the story of David and McCall. It's a husband and wife that get into an argument and there's just So many strange things that are happening. We talked about how David is essentially dancing in his underwear. His wife sees what he's doing. She is not happy about it. And she automatically assumes that, ⁓ man, he's trying to show off for all these women that are standing around. And today I'm joined by one of my real good friends, Nate Ross. Nate is a leader of leaders. He was the lead pastor at Northside Christian Church over in New Albany, Indiana, a large church. He's been one of my good ⁓ ministry friends. We went to College together, guy that I've learned a lot from, and he knows all about the importance of crucial conversations. And so, Nate, thanks for for doing this with me today. You best, Shane. Glad to be with you, buddy. Yeah, so this story, it it starts off. She's watching everything happening from a window. She looks down, she sees David, and she automatically assumes that his motives are not pure. Nate. Why is it so easy for us to assume and believe ⁓ things in our mind that might not even meet reality? Well, one of the things I found is ⁓ we're all a byproduct of our environment that we grew up in. And the more you kind of get into the story, you start seeing all the layers, you know, where ⁓ McCall was ⁓ given to David really out of political power. She loved him. He really didn't necessarily it was more of a I love her because of what she can do for me compared to just her. And then, you know, Saul gives ⁓ her away when David flees. And it's just this, it's all of these chaos things coming up in a relationship. And so one of the things I think when we make assumptions, what we don't realize is ⁓ we have an unseen operating system ⁓ that we carry. We may not be able to say it. We may not be able to ⁓ like write it down. And so we are making decisions all of the time and we're not even even aware that some of these things are assumptions. ⁓ I know for me personally, ⁓ I joke, ⁓ I'll be out on a on our riding lawnmower and my wife when I come in, she'll go, Who are you talking to out there? And I'm like, What I'm like, what do you mean? She's like, ⁓ I saw you having that imaginary conversation. What's so funny is I will I'll have like I I don't I won't even realize I'm doing it. I'll be having these imaginary conversations with somebody. And what I found is ⁓ I'm undefeated in every imaginary conversation I've ever had. You always win them? I always win ⁓ I have fifteen reasons why they're wrong. And I'm even making up their rebuttals and then I'm destroying their rebuttals. And what's so funny is like I will. I'll just come in and she's like, Do you know you were talking to somebody other? I'm like, I had no idea. And oftentimes we make assumptions and we don't even realize where they're coming from or the fact that we're even doing it. But it's this unseen operating system that we have in our life. And we just gotta get awareness of it. I mean, this is exactly what's going on where she despised David in her heart, leads to all sorts of stuff. ⁓ and I think we're just not really aware ⁓ that we're we're having all of these assumptions in our life. I love that you say that we're operating out of this we have this operating system that's already in us, and especially in the story that we looked at with David and McCall. So her life is kind of built out of a little bit of chaos. Like you're talking about, she was given to David. She didn't have a choice in that matter. And so everything that she's grown up around is where she's probably fighting for value or fighting for worth. And whenever she sees him. dancing with these women, she just assumes, okay, this is another time where my value is is nothing. And so she's operating just out of the environment. And I don't think like you're talking about, I don't think we we realize that so many of the decisions that we make or how we go into conversations are influenced by how we were raised or what we grew up around. Well and even I think it's second ⁓ Samuel three, when David comes back into power, you know, Saul had given her away to another man when when David fled and that guy loved her, unlike David. And so part of this is David just goes and takes her back. And it's like and I'm not saying every it you know, this is what we we see too in marriage or in c in relationships. We try to put this on one or the other compared to actually acknowledging each of us broken in every marriage. Each of us come with no matter and my parents were so godly And so incredible. Same with my wife. But there's things that we didn't realize that maybe we needed, or there's things that we've gone through that have formed us, or just our own ⁓ propensity to sin. And so it's like when she's having this, there's a lot of things going on in her from her past, from all these other things that are coming out. And the greatest thing that she could do for and the greatest thing that we could do is get awareness of what is actually happening in us. ⁓ kind of the psychological term for it is you gotta name it to tame it. Like we're having all these feelings. And oftentimes if we don't take the time to name it, it will become way bigger. And and you know, I'm guilty of this, something will happen in my life or whatever, and I'll come home and one of my kids will do something. And my reaction will be so disproportionate. Mm-hmm. And it, you know, and they'll just kind of look at me like, where is this coming from? I'm like, I don't know where that's coming from right now. But there's something that was happening that just comes out when we don't name this and we and we take this seriously. And that's why you know, this is why it's important what you're doing, because a lot of times we're making assumptions about people because there's things that are undealt with in our own heart and our life. And it's playing into our relationships. Yeah. One of the things that our ⁓ it's a short little video that our our team has done here at the church. Is Andy Stanley did this whole segment on trust over suspicion and the difference that that makes when you're operating under trust? Like, ⁓ I think that Nate did this because Nate was out to get me. And if I would have operated under trust instead, ⁓ this isn't like Nate, so I'm gonna automatically assume that there's more to the story. We don't do that, we automatically jump to the assumption part. And so How does assumption, how does that damage relationship before we ever even realize it? Well, and and this is it, you just said it. And and Andy's right, healthy relationships are all built on trust. And it doesn't mean perfection, but when there's an absence of trust, there's an absence of vulnerability. And when there's an absence of vulnerability, there's an absence of confidence. And so, you know, even for us, if you reach down and you're like, hey, let's do this video, and I'm like, And there was already like a level of I don't necessarily trust you. And I'm like, okay, I'll do this video. But even the answers I'm going to give you are going to be very surface level because I'm like, I don't, I don't know what you're going to do with my answers, man. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Vulnerability is going to go way down. ⁓ the level of confession is going to go way down. ⁓ and ultimately healthy relationships are built on vulnerability and trust. ⁓ and and and Really that that's the thing, is it and and this is why we can have twenty five year relationships and they still feel very surface level. Yeah. Right. 'Cause like twenty five years doesn't mean you're gonna have a healthy, robust relationship. But when you walk in in waves of assumptions and you don't actually address why you keep assuming, ⁓ you'll never actually go deep with anybody. You won't experience the life, you know, you guys talked about community. You won't experience community. ⁓ that God has for us in the church. ⁓ and James even says it, confess your sins to one another so that you would be healed. It's not just so ⁓ you can no longer be guilty. There's a healing that happens with this. But if we don't live in that way and we live full of assumptions and mistrust, we never experience the fullness that God has for us in relationships. So why? Why do you think it's easier for us just to believe the assumptions than instead of Going out and having a clarifying conversation because that's gonna be tough to say, hey, this is how I'm reading it. Why don't we do that? Why, why do we just operate it under our assumptions? I'll be honest. ⁓ just for my own self, one, I didn't know how. ⁓ and then two, my default was people pleasing. And it still is true to me. So it's like, I don't want to have this conversation. Because at the end of the conversation is a great chance that we will no longer be the type of friends we were. Yeah. ⁓ and it's like I and then they'll they'll create like a not a clinical anxiety, but they'll be they'll they'll create all this type of fear, all these types of things. So we never step into it. We don't know how to address it. And You know, people will say stuff like this and I've said this to people too. Well you just need to go talk to ⁓ Yeah, that's easier said than done. Sure, yes. And and we just fail to realize there is we are not ⁓ we are not compartmentalized people. ⁓ I don't know if you if you've ever had this happen to you in a conversation where ⁓ in a tough conversation like this, and this is how someone will start. Listen, Shane, it's not personal. Getting ready to get personal. Everything is personal. Like, like That's the that's the problem. I want you to hear this, but don't involve your heart, your life, or your mind. I want you just to hear it, process it, and move on. That's called robots. ⁓ that's not humanity. Now that doesn't mean you can't have these hard conversations. We just have to respect and honor the way that God has made us. I'll be honest, one of the ways too, even as a pastor, when I'd have to give tough feedback to staff, yeah. ⁓ I think it was John Ortberg who said this. He said, Leadership is disappointing people at a rate they can handle. Ooh. Right. It's like we think leadership's just about casting vision and giving great sermons. And it's like, no, part of leadership is disappointing people at a rate they can handle. I I didn't know how to disappoint people well. And I had to go get help for that. I had to go ask people who were much wiser than me. One of the biggest things I learned was I needed to have a line. That could help me get into the hard conversation. So when I'd have to have a confronting conversation, this was the line that I would use and it because I didn't know how to start it. And what I what I realized was I had to say, Hey, I'm just concerned. It wasn't accusatory. It wasn't attacking. ⁓ I'm not already declaring a verdict ⁓ of them because there's what I realized too as a leader, I don't know everything. I don't know. I I s I have a I have a view. Our problem with our assumptions, we think our view is the only view. Yeah. And so when I would say that, hey, I just I'm I'm concerned. It was expressing my feeling and it kind of let them know where I'm at. But then it allowed them to go, hey, I hear you. did you know this? ⁓ no, I didn't know that. Mm-hmm. And so it it allowed me to get out what I needed to say and it kept me ⁓ in a place that I could receive feedback ⁓ that I needed to get. But I didn't know how to do any of that. And you know, the whole concept of this series came from the book Crucial Conversations. And it's in that book that it taught it kind of piggybacking on what we're talking about right here, it talks about when you go into a crucial conversation. Of course, yeah, the stakes are high, but I need to go into it and instead of saying, Hey, ⁓ David, whenever you were down there dancing with those girls trying to impress them, I need to say instead, hey, when you were out there dancing, it appeared to me that you were trying to impress them. Instead of just stating stuff as fact, instead of ⁓ voicing our assumptions as truth. We need to let them know this is how I felt. But instead ⁓ of assuming that's what it was, won't you tell me what was really taking place? Because in David's heart, he was he was glorifying God. He was celebrating this big win of br returning the the ark. ⁓ but that's not how she saw it. Now you you said something really great with it because feelings are subjective. And I just I just feel really disrespected. Mm-hmm. You can't tell me I've I'm I didn't feel that. Yeah, absolutely. I'm not calling you disrespectful. I'm saying I felt disrespectful. Disrespectful. Yep. And it allows this whole thing to go, your feelings are subjective. I I can't tell you what you feel or what you don't. And the key too, and this, I know we just talked about this. When something like that comes up, it's kind of shocking to us because somebody says that. One of the best things you can do to when someone does that though to us is to go, ⁓ tell me more about that. Like like what else is there? And one of the greatest things is when somebody becomes that vulnerable with you to say that of the feeling to go, there's more in there, and we need to be able to draw that out of people. Yep. I think I think it's Proverbs twenty, verse five, that says the purposes of a person's heart are deep waters, but a person of understanding draws it out. And when so when someone's sharing that, it's coming out of their deep waters. Like this passage. Tons of deep thoughts. She despised him in her heart. Like that's th this is this is stuff way deep in her. And when we just have these shallow responses or we dismiss people compared to going, thank you for actually sharing something deep within you. What else is what else is going on? What else do you need? ⁓ because they need to be given permission to continue to share. Doesn't even mean they're right. Right. That that yeah, keep going. That that takes with what you're talking about, that takes that's one of the keys in these crucial conversations, but it also it's it's humility. You it takes humility on the part of the person who is receiving, which is so tough because if we're using the the David McHell ⁓ as our as our ⁓ as our example, man There was no humility. Instead, they did what I feel like all of us do in a situation like that is they got defensive. No, I'm right, and I'm not even gonna listen to what you say. I'm already waiting to give you my response because my response is all the reasons that I'm right and you're won wrong. So we're we're looking to win the argument than we are to win the relationship. That's it. Yeah. Yeah. Now that that is well put. And and again, we talk about those things that we're unaware of. That is one of the greatest underlying things that we're unaware of. We think we're you nailed it. We think we're trying to win the argument. Right? Do we're fighting in a healthy marriage or in healthy relationships on an executive team, even on a sports team, whatever, it's like the great coaches and players can talk honestly, sometimes harshly to each other, but it can be received 'cause you go, I know at the end of the day, you're for me. Mm-hmm. You're for me. You're not just to win the argument. And you go, man, this is so key, especially in a marriage. I can I can hear you. I can I can accept that, even if it's hard to hear, because at the end of the day, I actually believe you're for me. Yep. So and that's even that's great stuff. And that comes straight from the book Crucial Conversations and starting off a conversation saying, Hey, we want the same goal. And I want this to this series to apply. To more than just the church world. I mean, it applies to our marriages, it applies to ⁓ the workplace. But starting off a conversation where I say, Hey, Nate, you love the church, I love the church. We both want to see the same thing. This is assuming that we're, you know, we're we're co workers, saying, like, I know that you want to see this church grow. I wanna see the church grow. So we we're our hearts in the same place, but this is where this is what I'm seeing. Yeah. Well, and that yeah, keep going on that. No, so where I was going with that, I I think you're right. You're you're talking about the trusting that I want the same thing as you, that you know, that we have the same goal. So how can we do that? So you've got leaders, parents, friends, coworkers. How do we build up trust that's gonna reduce all these unnecessary misunderstandings that we have? A couple things. One, we've got to realize relationships are our greatest currency more than anything else is relationships. ⁓ Jesus says this, Mark twelve. What's the greatest summarize Jesus, what's the greatest law? To love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself. The key part. Right? And and and that's why what we're talking about is part of the reason why we can't like you can go through the book, Crucial Conversations. I love it, I have it. ⁓ we read through it as a church ste ⁓ team as well, because They're hard to navigate. At the end of the day, just because you know the technique, that third part of what Jesus said, okay, I'm loving God. Okay, I'm loving my neighbor. And here's a deeper question within all this, and this is oftentimes why we can't do it. How do you view yourself? How how do you actually love yourself? And when there's this, like, yeah, I respect everybody else, but I don't respect myself. Well, guess what? That if you don't respect yourself and receive the love of God, You won't have the courage and the confidence to actually have these conversations. And so sometimes this isn't about ⁓ you just need to love God or you just need to love others. It's like, no, you need to learn how to let God love you. Boundaries is a big thing to go, hey, I'm for you. I'm aligned. I'm not okay with this. Yep. I'm not okay with this. And so these are these. This is this holistic understanding that one relationship is our greatest currency. That it that is the the greatest thing. And this is why we have to be able to do this. I think it's ⁓ Proverbs twenty-seven, six. The wounds of a friend can be trusted. Yep. Wounds from a friend are better than kisses from an enemy. Right? Don't flatter me. Don't lie to me. Don't just tell me what you think I want to hear because I'll see through it. If you're really my friend and you're really for my good, now that's an art. Wound me, don't kill me. Right? You know, like like people will want to be like, right, and here's the I'm just gonna reduce you to amount of nothing, somebody needs to bring that man down. That's not helpful either. But learning how to wound, you think about how Jesus wound people. Even even the rich young ruler that comes to him, one of the best ways he he wounded? Was he asked questions? Yep. All right, you w you want to receive eternal life? Great. ⁓ why do you call me good? He's getting to the heart. The dude's totally unaware. ⁓ and he's diving in and he's having these hard conversations. And one of the best ways is is asking questions of people. ⁓ I know one of the things you asked too within this is to go, hey, what are some ways one of the one of the greatest questions ⁓ I've learned to ask in a moment where I'm about ready to go off the handle with assumptions about why somebody did something. ⁓ and I had a friend way, you know, he's in his sixties, been an executive pastor for a lot l longer, but you know, way wiser than me. I said, dude, help me. You've had to navigate help me. He said, One of the greatest questions I ask people so I don't fall into the assumption trap and the suspicion trap is he said, Hey, help me understand. Hey, this this happened. Help me understand why that happened. And he and he goes, Sometimes it's their moment to go, Yeah, we screwed up. Like like you know, where ⁓ but because he didn't come in accusatory, they were they were able to confess to what went wrong. ⁓ or they had a great reason, and then he's like, Then I can ask the neck next question. Do you think that's what they really needed? Right. And he's like, the more I can say, but that question has been so helpful to me. Hey, just help me help me understand what what happened here. Which takes humility. Right. I most of the time as leaders, we already know the answer. But we've gotta allow people time to engage in this relationship. And so when we believe that relationship is the greatest currency and we're willing to ask questions instead of just immediately go to accusations. Yep. It allows this trust to be a a a much healthier ⁓ situation. That's that's good. And you know, I'm thinking about the end of this story with David and Mikel, and it's it it sadly ends with saying, and she had no kids, which basically is saying the relationship was done. They were they were done with each other, they were never able to recover. And so how how do we recover? When you realize that you they both, in my opinion, a lot of times I feel like David's made out as the the good guy and Mikel is the one that's you know was in the wrong. But no, it was on both parts. He he he acted prideful, he did things that he shouldn't do, and then he doubled down on it, vice versa. So whenever you have completely misread a person or misread a situation, how do you recover from that? Because it can't be that you just go your separate ways. There needs to be a recovery process. How do we do that? Yeah, th I know ⁓ well, the reason why I take deep breath is because I'm thinking about the times where I didn't have the the harder conversation and you'd ask too, go, hey, was there a a moment and ⁓ two quick things. I'll I'll share just briefly the story and then and then the framework that's helped me biblically ⁓ bring reconciliation to that relationship. ⁓ We had hosted a a life group for a number of years at our house and ⁓ and you know, ⁓ you know, our town's kinda like your town where a lot of people know each other and ⁓ people may go to church together, but they're like, I ain't gonna join their life group. You know, they're you know, and we're brothers and sisters in Christ. But you know, there's there's relational things and and ⁓ and we had a couple in our life group, unbelievable sweet, sweet people. They moved away about forty minutes and they were gonna try to keep coming to our life group, but we knew it it you know, that was gonna be hard. And we're like, well, if can great if not. Well, there was another couple that really wanted wanted in and they were you know, around our neighborhood and and we knew there was some relational tension between the two couples. And I knew and this was my problem, I was like, Well, you know, our whole mission is connecting, unconnected, let's just add another group. And I I I recognized there's gonna there would be relational tension there, but I didn't deal with it. Mm-hmm. Because it's like, Well, we just want more people to be in groups. Yeah. Right. Wanna get him connected. Want to get him connected. And yet I was living in denial about the relational tension. Well, when that when that new couple joined, the other couple officially left. And I'm like, Yeah, I knew I should have had that conversation before I had right. But we again I justified and rationalized. Well, you know, whatever. ⁓ it wasn't until ⁓ I think ⁓ that that couple ⁓ Ruthie and I had dinner with them who left. ⁓ and it was about a year ago. And we said, Hey, we need to get together. They'd be they said that'd be great, met with them, had a great dinner, and they were honest with this. They said that was deeply hurtful to us, that that was how we found out. Yeah. And it was like you guys knew the relational strife and hurt that we've had experienced. ⁓ And then they talked about it. They just said, you know, we didn't know what you guys thought of us. We didn't know if you just thought we no longer mattered and now they only right. It's like because I didn't erase question marks, people get to fill in the blanks with whatever they then it was like, you know, they just kept sharing the type of hurt and the type that of help they needed to get to process that hurt. And it was like I had had that inkling. I knew I should have had the conversation. I didn't do it. And I deeply hurt these people. And it was that moment of like and I hurt ⁓ out of like, well, we just gotta keep growing. You heard ⁓ out of the mission. The the mission, if it's done well, is always mindful of relationships. Mm-hmm. It doesn't take emotion out. It doesn't take people out and just go, well, we just power through. It's like people are the mission. Yes. P and ⁓ so deeply regretful. So here's just how I had to process that. ⁓ this is what I learned. ⁓ and this is what I get to help as I leave reconciliation. Reconciliation conversations with staff and leaders that I get to work with. ⁓ this comes from my good friend Dave Ryder. He said biblically, the first thing we need to be willing to do is acknowledge what the other people are feeling. Mm-hmm. And you'll know reconciliation is possible if the other people are willing to acknowledge what you're feeling. They may not agree, but they're willing to acknowledge. And if they're not willing to acknowledge, that already lets you know reconciliation isn't on the table. Yep. Mm-hmm. If I if if at that dinner, if my answer to them was, well, you just didn't know, you don't know all the people were trying to reach, and they're like, Okay, you just let me know. ⁓ Yep. Not only did I tell you you hurt me, you're not willing to listen to me. Yep. I I can't trust you then. And it was great. There was tears at dinner. I mean, just all this other stuff, but it's like one, we got to be willing to acknowledge, take ownership for what our part is wrong in this. Yep. David and McCall both have problems. Both have ownership to take in this. Yep. Then apologize. Which is hard. It's hard. Cause that ⁓ no more excuses, no more accolades, no more well don't you know this no and then this is the last part ⁓ that most people struggle with you've got to commit to the cleanup process ⁓ it may have meant it didn't, but it may have meant to this couple that I needed to go and apologize to their kids. Even though it wasn't like even though the kid but if they felt that, if they carried that hurt, it I was gonna need to go and do that. Yeah. And it was it's so helpful for me biblically to have that framework through these hard conversations, be willing to acknowledge, take ownership, apologize. And then commit to whatever the cleanup process is. Yep. This is how relationships get restored. This is how Jesus heals us. And it's a it's how we avoid this whole suspicion trap of of assumptions. Yep. I love that you gave real f framework for how to go about this because I think, like you were talking about earlier, you can you can know what to do, but how do you do it? Yeah. Yeah. This is perfect. I appreciate your time, man. Thank you so much for for diving into this. This is helpful for me. I sure hope that everybody else is going to be able to see how this applies to their role. Nate, thank you so much. You bet. Thanks, Shane.