Shane: Well, we are wrapping up our Crucial Conversation series this weekend. And so we've been looking at crucial conversations. And a crucial conversation is just a conversation that changes something. It might be the direction of a person's life. Maybe it reveals something more important about God or gives us wisdom on how we can lead or live even today. And this past weekend, we looked at one of my favorite stories in the Bible. It's a conversation that takes place between Moses and And his father-in-law Jethro. And it's pretty straightforward exchange, but I think there is a lot about leadership in this story, about listening to honest feedback, sometimes recognizing our limits, sharing responsibility. And one of the toughest things, I think, is trusting other people to lead. And I'm excited because today I get the chance to talk to one of my really good friends, Adam Dean. Adam is the superintendent over at Triopia Schools. ⁓ some of the best conversations I've had with him are about leadership. And so Adam, thanks for joining us today. I'm excited to learn from you. So let's go ahead, let's let's dive in. I just told people you are a superintendent. And as a superintendent, you are making decisions that affect a lot of people. And so I'd like to know what have you learned about the difference between what leadership looks like from the outside and what it actually feels like when you're the one that's having to carry all of that responsibility. Adam Dean: Yeah, ⁓ thanks for having me, Shane. Really excited to to speak today. ⁓ I feel like ⁓ people who may see me in the leadership see see me as a s a very stoic person and someone that carries a lot of confidence, but inside I may be screaming a lot with anxiety and insecurities. ⁓ you question yourself constantly, ⁓ but at some point you just have to make a decision. ⁓ whenever you have a difficult situation going on and stick with it. So in leadership I feel like ⁓ especially as a school leader, every minor complaint or every minor criticism really really weighs on you, whether it's anything from an unhappy parent to something your kids are maybe going through, to a building issue. ⁓ if a sports team's not winning, you know, that's another thing that sometimes unfortunately will kinda will come come to my desk. And ⁓ it's just it's extremely ⁓ humbling job a lot of times to try to lead a district. ⁓ But at the same time, there's nothing that brings me more ⁓ happiness than leading a district that has a good reputation and does the right thing for kids and does the right things for staff. ⁓ I often look back, ⁓ I was a teacher for nine years too, before I was a school administrator. And ⁓ when I'm having a really hard day, I sometimes think, man and not the teaching's easy either, but I look back and think, you know, remember those days where I only had to worry about what took place and within my classroom with my kids. Shane: Mm-hmm. Adam Dean: ⁓ and sometimes I do miss that. Depends on the day. But I've been a district superintendent for seven plus years now and a a principal for six or seven years before that. ⁓ it's just a I'm very grateful for all the opportunities I've had and even though sometimes I may be screaming on the inside, ⁓ it's it's really it's really a fulfilling occupation. Shane: Well, and you just touched on something actually, Adam, that that made me think. So you were talking about you you were a teacher before you stepped into this role. I know that you're also a principal. And ⁓ a lot of times, so right now, when you make a decision, you're having to make the decision that is best for the organization as a whole. And whenever we're a teacher, a lot of times whenever you're in the positions leading up to the position of leadership, a lot of times we want the decision to be made that's best for you personally. Adam Dean: Yep. Yep. Shane: And so how do you deal with you're, I feel like in leadership, you're constantly disappointing people because ⁓ you can make a decision that's best for the district, but you also at the same time, you can be really disappointing somebody that's a teacher or a coach. How do you weigh what the right decision is? Adam Dean: Yeah. Yeah. Well, we always ⁓ my grade school principal and I have been together for my entire time here at Triopia for thirteen years and we always kinda say the same thing, what's best for kids, right? What's best for kids. You really have to do what's ⁓ best for your staff and you really have to do what's best for the community. But when you have a decision that may kind of tinker on the lines of you're gonna make one of those parties upset with you, it just boils down to making the best decision for for kids and what's what's best for your students within your school or an individual student in a situation. ⁓ and sometimes people have a hard time understanding that. ⁓ but that's kind of what I've always when I've had a tough decision to make, I just look at look what's best for kids. Yep. Shane: I love that. And so in the in the sermon that we we had this past weekend, it was all about a guy named Moses. Moses was a great leader and his father in law comes into town to celebrate all the great things that God has been doing for Moses and his family and for the people of Israel. ⁓ it's not been an easy journey by any means, but whenever Jethro arrives on the scene He can see that everything that Moses is doing is not the healthiest because he is spending all day long listening to the people's complaints, taking them before God, telling them what they're supposed to be doing. And the ⁓ there's a there's a key part in this story that is so easy to look. Jethro, he tells Moses, he says, What you're doing, it's not good for you. But then he also says, but it's also wearing the people out too. And so, ⁓ Moses had this blind spot and he didn't even realize that it existed. He didn't realize that what he was doing unhealthy. And I think that all of us in in leadership, we have blind spots. And the higher that you move in leadership, the easier I think it probably becomes for people just to tell you the things that maybe they think that you wanna hear. ⁓ ha Adam Dean: Right. Shane: How have you intentionally built people around you that can still tell you the truth? Do you have people in your corner you said you've been with your principal for thirteen years? Do you have people like that that say, Adam, I think you're missing something here? Adam Dean: Yep. Yeah, and kinda going off all that, ⁓ I d I do feel like I do battle imposter syndrome a little bit, just ⁓ in general as a leader. I think part of that is I started in leadership pretty young, right? So I was a principal at thirty one. And you have teachers who have thirty, you know, thirty years of experience, you know, who are in their fifties and who who's this kid to come in and tell me what I need to do or you know, but I think if always if I came from a good place and said you know, this is what I'm seeing and I I depended on their expertise. It's all on how you present it, right? It's all on how you present it with them. So I've kinda always dealt with that and now you know, last year we hired a teacher ⁓ who's great, but they were born when I was in college. And now it's kinda weird that I'm becoming, you know, more of a veteran person. I'm in my mid forties now, ⁓ in the last third of my career already, which is crazy. But I've always kinda dealt with imposter syndrome and also feeling like Shane: Mm-hmm. Uh-huh. Adam Dean: You know, who am I to tell these per people this? But at the same time, kinda going back to your main question about ⁓ who do I have that I can trust? I I brought up my grade school principal, I have a district secretary that works in my office that I hired when I became superintendent. ⁓ and, you know, if they'll call me out on a situation or think I need to be tougher on a situation, ⁓ after I kind of battle being offended and ⁓ puff my chest up a little bit, ⁓ usually they're almost always right, right? And Shane: Mm-hmm. Adam Dean: One thing that's really good about my team, especially the people that I'm the tightest with, my grade school principal, my junior senior high school principal, my district secretary, and a few others is, you know, we're always lockstep publicly. ⁓ whether we have a disagreement in the office, I mean I can think of a few that we've had where we definitely are not in agreement. But when we finally come to a decision, if I you know, if I have to make the final call as the superintendent, ⁓ they're very supportive of me, ⁓ just because they feel like they can They can let me have it if they don't agree with the decision that I made. ⁓ but like I said, publicly we're always together. So Shane: Yeah, and that unity is so important. And it's nice that obviously they have that ⁓ kind of relationship with you where they can challenge you and know that you're not going to get even or get back at them because they said something or they challenged you. And I think that's really important. I don't want to talk about that a little bit more here in just a minute. But one of the things that you and I have talked about a lot ⁓ in all of our years of friendship is Adam Dean: Yeah. Shane: When you're in leadership, there's always criticism. and you see at the very beginning of our conversation today, you were talking about ⁓ we hear the the critics sometimes louder than we hear the praise. And in your seat, you get criticized a lot, and that's just part of the territory. But how do you know what criticism is something that you need to listen to? And how do you know when it's criticism that you just need to say, Man, That's I d that's no b that's that couldn't be further from the truth. I don't even need to waste my breath entertaining that. Adam Dean: Right. I feel like I've always I think part of part of me becoming a leader at a younger age, I feel like I've always been open to ideas and I don't really feel like I'm a know it all. I'm always and I and one thing I'm very proud of is even during the toughest times, I have never turned down a meeting with anyone. I have never not responded to a phone call that's been critical. Anyone that's called or emailed or wanted to meet, I've always welcomed that. And honestly, if somebody sends a critical email, which is the easiest to want to ignore, honestly, if you don't have the If you don't have the gall to come in and talk to me about it, then it's a little easier for me to just kinda push it to the side. But I always, you know, I've always invited anybody in to come and talk to me. I've never ran away from any any discussion. as far as what ones to really listen to, ⁓ I was kinda thinking about that. if you're a constant complainer and that's all you have to say, then a lot of times your what you your opinion on a certain situation is kinda goes down the totem pole. ⁓ but if you're someone that you know, we've had a lot of good conversations and you honestly have a criticism that is and I that's not to say that you can't have constant criticisms, but kinda the example I was thinking about is we had a and we had a kid go through here, the parents were critical of every coach they ever had in every sport. And by the time they were a junior or senior, it's like, Hey, this is just the norm, you know, and it's it kinda you know, we kinda just didn't Shane: Mm-hmm. Adam Dean: You know, unless it was like a safety issue, it's like, okay, just so and so complaining about a coach again. ⁓ so I kinda think that I think, you know, whoever I spoke about earlier who I who I have close relationships with, those are if they have a legit criticism then it's easier for me to listen to that. But if if you're just a constant complainer, then what you say may not ha hold as much weight. Shane: Yeah. Yeah, and I think this story with Moses and Jethro, it speaks volumes because I agree with you. If somebody's a constant complainer, I don't put a whole lot of stock into what they're saying. I just think of this is normal behavior. But when it's so out of the ordinary for somebody to come up and say, I have a concern or I have a complaint, I'm always thinking, Okay, I need to I need to listen to this because they don't ever do that. And it made me think that that had to have been the kind of guy that Jethro was. Jethro Adam Dean: Yeah. Shane: was not a complainer because Moses took took his advice seriously. He he listened to what he says. And we know from this past weekend that he even changed the whole way that he was operating. But I think that's really important for even if you're not in a position of leadership, but you want to see realistic change, I think it's really important that to know that our actions leading up to those moments are important too. If you're somebody that's constantly supportive and encouraging, whenever you go with a complaint, Adam Dean: Right. Shane: People are gonna be way more likely to listen than if you're the guy that is always bringing the criticisms. Adam Dean: Right. I had a ⁓ my boss that my superintendent before me always had a quote and he'd say at the beginning of the year and he'd say to the whole staff. He said, ⁓ and something comes up, I'm gonna ask you if it's a problem or it's a complaint And he's like he's basically said, I'm into solving problems, I'm not into listening to complaints. So I think that's another thing too, is if somebody brings a problem to you, is can the problem actually be solved? Is there something that can be done about this or is just some is just something that they're, you know just wanting to get off their chest. ⁓ I also have a really good ⁓ principal friend who's been doing it a lot longer than me. He was a pr he's a principal, he's moving in the superintendent role. He kinda told me that and this is just a number he pulled out. He said nine he feels like ninety percent of the time people just want you to sit there and take a complaint. They just want a vent. They just want a vent. They don't really want a solution. They just want to tell you how they felt like they've been wronged or they don't like something that's going on in the school. And I've kind of Shane: Uh-huh. Yep. Adam Dean: I kinda listen that too. I mean I had a situation in in the spring before school got out where ⁓ me and one of my principals basically just had to sit there and take it because there were parts of the story that we couldn't share with this, which is another discussion item I think we'll talk about. You can't always tell the whole story, especially when it comes to student discipline. And you know, we just allowed them to have their moment, ⁓ let us have it and then go on their way. And sometimes that's hard. You wanna defend yourself. ⁓ and You know, I'll go defend myself behind closed doors to the people I'm close with. But ⁓ and then they're what's difficult about that is they're able to go out and say whatever they want to the community all at the same time. You can't. You can't, you know, there's 'cause if you come out you just look just as bad, you know. So it's just it's ⁓ it's a tough part of leadership, sure. Shane: Absolutely. Yep. Yeah. Well w there's a lot of things that I love about the way that you lead. ⁓ you're extremely humble. But another thing that I I love about your leadership for people who don't know because you don't toot your own horn, but is you I think you model servant leadership and I love that about you. And one of the things that people that probably don't know is when there's a need, you step in and you feel it and you You drive bus routes. You went out and got your CDL so you could help out with the bus whenever there was a need for things like that. I know that you go to a lot of the sporting events and you help out where wherever there's a need. And so, and I'm not saying you do this, so let me just preface it with that. But in our story with with Moses, he was doing he was doing a lot. And Jethro looked at it and he said, Man, this isn't good. And so you do a lot. Has there ever been a time where you thought, man, I might actually be Adam Dean: Yeah. Shane: be becoming a bottleneck here. And it's tough to give people responsibility. If if you're wired like me, I want things done a certain way. And sometimes if I hand off a responsibility, they might not do it the way that I do it. How do you how do you balance that between wanting to help out, be a servant leader, but then also not doing so much that you're creating a bottleneck? How do you Hand off responsibility in a healthy way that empowers people, but also sets you and your organization up for success. Adam Dean: Yeah, I yeah, to I I do try to be humble, but just to kinda go off this discussion, I I do get my C DL, I do drive. Sometimes I'll go out and I do a lot of ⁓ so our school's on one property. It's it's ⁓ it's pre K through twelve throughout the whole building and I'll go out. I live just across the road and I like for the property to look good, right? So you know, I'll weed eat and I'll spray and do little things like that, or I do supervise a lot of ball games, I announce at ball games, I I do all sorts of different things. ⁓ Shane: You're also an incredible DJ at the basketball games. I've seen that. Adam Dean: And yeah, yeah. But I've always I think it kinda first thing it goes back to is I saw this. I mean Steve Eisenhower was the boss before me here, did a lot of those things. So I saw him do it and I learned from him. But also kinda goes back to ⁓ imposter syndrome in a way that I've always thought that people may be unhappy with decisions I make, but nobody's gonna call me lazy or nobody's not gonna say that I don't do what what needs to be done for the district. Now I have gotten criticism sometimes where if I'm out and I don't I don't know so I don't want to call it criticism, but I kinda take it as a criticism on my leadership. Is somebody will say, you know, if I'm out weeding, somebody'll just make a comment. They don't mean anything by it. Are the gent are the custodians busy today? Are they too busy today? And, you know, sometimes I'll do it over the summer 'cause I'll have some spare time, say go out and do some landscaping or something. I kinda like it too. It's just some it's kinda gets me out of the office for a sec and kinda gives me s a different kind of work to do. Shane: Mm-hmm. Adam Dean: But ⁓ I see what my custodians are doing. They're trying to get all the floors waxed over the summer and I don't mind doing that. And it it's not that it's not that big a deal. as far as, you know, I know this may lead into delegating a little bit. I did when I was a principal, I did this program. It was it was through our regional office of education, it was a lead program, and I can't remember the exact name of it. It's been a decade or so, but basically this grant program hired a person when I was a principal to follow me around for a week. They couldn't speak to me. Everywhere I went, they had a little notepad, and every five minutes they checked this little box to see what I was doing. And then they gave me this report at the end. And the whole point in this study was that in this group that does this feels like schools succeed the most when a principal's main focus is on instructional leadership. And anything else they do, basically needs to be delegated or ⁓ You know, so you can focus on instructional leadership and kids growing within the classroom. So you're in observing teachers, helping them getting better teaching instead of doing paperwork. Or you have somebody take care of discipline when a student's in trouble so you can be helping a teacher grow. Or you don't do anything with lunch duty because, you know, you should be in the classroom helping teachers grow. Now, I understand where that program's coming from, but at the same time my view as a leader has always been some of those jobs are the worst part of the job and I don't want to delegate to some I feel like that's poor leadership. I feel like me asking, you know, I think I was trying to come up with people that could do certain jobs like the paperwork, putting more of that on the secretary, or discipline, putting more of that on my athletic director, or lunch duty, making the teachers do that. Those are parts of the job that they have some good things. Don't be wrong, I like being in a lunchroom and communicating with kids more, but at the same time it's also a little bit of work 'cause it's crazy in a lunch room right at the cafeteria is nuts. And Shane: Mm-hmm. Adam Dean: So I've always had a hard time delegating for that because I don't want to give people the worst parts of my job. And then the other thing too, as far as delegate I'm I'm okay. I I r for the most part I don't have a hard time delegating certain other things. But ⁓ if there's a mistake made, I've always had a I it's always if somebody I delegate something, I can think of a few times where I've delegated something, right? And those people have done it and they haven't done it up to my up to my level of that I want it. Well then I'll just it's easier for me just to take that job back over. instead of teaching them how to do it correctly. This is kind of a bad example, but ⁓ this was something I just did this week. So we have spreadsheets every year, so we we have, you know, negotiations and teachers get certain raises based on the on the year, on the contract agreement. Well I have a spreadsheet that I have every year and I add a new column every year based on the raise they get, right? And then I you do a mail I do a mail merge off that spreadsheet for contract letters to staff. Well there's a few little minor errors in there that when I do the mail merge I have to go in and click. I haven't fixed the original document since like since I formed it in 2020. It would take me probably fifteen minutes to fix the document, but every year I don't do it because I only do it once a year. And then and then so instead I have to go back in and do I have to go in and touch up every document a little bit. It's just a couple formatting errors, you know, it takes me it may take me thirty to forty five minutes to do that when it just takes me fifteen to the document. So I know that's kind of a weird example, but when I delegate something to somebody and they mess up, I a lot of times I'll just add time to my own plate to do it because I you know, instead of just teaching them what they should do. ⁓ but like I said, I I don't necessarily have a issue delegating. It's just if something's done incorrectly, you know, I have a harder time teaching somebody to do it instead of saying, Okay, I'll just do it. Yeah, right, right. So you know. Shane: Just I'll take it on myself. Yep. And I also think I think there's a lot of wisdom in what you were just talking about when it comes to being a leader and doing extra stuff. Now if you were to spend ninety percent of your time during the week, during the the spring through fall seasons weed eating, that's not a good use of your that's not a good use of your time. you need to be spending the majority of time doing the things that only you can do. Adam Dean: Right. Right. Shane: But on the other hand, when there's times when our s our our teams are overwhelmed in different areas, you being willing to step up and help out, it shows that service isn't beneath you. And I think that is really important in leadership to show the people that you're working alongside that, hey, I'm a part of this team too, and I'll do whatever it takes to help us as a team ⁓ be successful. Adam Dean: Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah, I mean that's kind of where it comes from is I mean, are there little things like I like the building to look nice? Yeah, I mean that's part of it. I I I'm proud of how this building looks, I'm proud of our grounds. But at the same time, you know, it's another way to build a team and show everybody that I'm willing to do any I mean it with my bus drivers if it's pretty easy for me to say if there's a new addition to their route and they have to drive down a certain road that we don't usually drive down and I'm willing to drive down it 'cause I drive a bus and I have experience driving bus well Shane: Absolutely. Adam Dean: Or, you know, if we have inclement weather, right, and I go out in the morning and I drive around and I decide we're gonna have school even though it's a little snowy on the ground, it coming from me as somebody who drives a bus, you know, it's not just me from the superintendent's high post saying, ⁓ we're gonna have school today, get out there bus drivers, you know, I think I feel like it's it goes a long way in that I do that job as well. I think kinda going back though, I one thing I do wanna touch on as a as a digital leader, even though I want, you know, the school grounds to look good. Shane: Mm-hmm. Adam Dean: I have to keep that in perspective with what's the main purpose of the district. And you know, we're here to educate kids and help kids grow and to take care of our kids, right? So those things while I'm proud to go out and help do that every once in a while are not the main purpose while we're here. Right. If there's a if the weeds are a little taller or we have some grass growing in a sidewalk crack or whatever, ⁓ I need to make sure that I focus on what teachers are doing in here every day. take care of kids. And ⁓ that's another thing I gotta balance if I if I drive by, I live like I said, I live right by s by the school if I drive by and see some weeds, but at the same time we have, you know, three meetings for student growth. You know, those things are more important, right? And I need to keep that in focus as well. So while I like for the building to look good and I like doing all those extra jobs as a leader at the same time, that's not my main purpose. Main purpose is you know student growth. ⁓ Shane: For sure. Adam Dean: being good stewards of taxpayer dollars and having basically a place that the community can be proud of. So Shane: Yep. Well, I wanna leave with I I've got a two part question for the end. ⁓ I think it's easy for people to look and s see you as a superintendent, but they don't realize all the years that it took to get up into that role. And so you've been in both chairs. Sometimes you were Moses ⁓ and you needed somebody that maybe comes to you and tells you a difficult truth, but at other times you're Jethro and you need to speak the truth to somebody else. And so my final question for you is what have you learned about having the courage to say what needs to be said? And also having the humility to hear maybe what you don't want to necessarily hear. And then the second part of that is a in a position of leadership, we talked about how people come and they bring their concerns or the complaints to you. What is it that you wish that people would know about that process that would help both parties out? Because obviously you can't always do what people want you to do, you have to keep the big picture in mind. So those two things. How how do you have the humility to listen to what people say? How should we approach people in leadership? And then what do you wish everybody understood about those conversations? Adam Dean: Yeah, I think it's kind of a heavy question there. I think if i I think in leadership and being a superintendent, probably the the hardest thing. So I a system set in place now to where I mean people probably don't realize how much work I do on a computer for, you know, state reporting and all that. Superintendent is just there's just it's never ending. but probably the hardest job, part of part of the job is difficult conversations, right? That's I'm Shane: It Adam Dean: Like I said earlier, I've never ran away from one, but I can tell you that when I they're coming I dread them. You know, they're they're hard. What it's the hardest, you know, a lot of times if a parent if I have to have a tough conversation with a parent, I usually don't have to see them every day. Those, I mean, they still are no fun, but they're a little easier. The hardest time is when you have to have difficult conversations with people you work with. it's it can be pretty hard. I feel like I've never ran away from those. Shane: Yeah. Adam Dean: I took some P D when I was first a principal probably, you know, twelve years ago, where he said and I this really stuck with me, I used to hang it on my bulletin board in my principal's office. I don't have it up in my superintendent's office now, but it was the inability to have difficult conversations is the inability to lead. So I just always remembered, you know, Adam, this is why, you know, people always joke, that's why you're paid the big bucks, you know. You're paid the big bucks to have the tough conversations when they need to happen. And ⁓ Shane: Ooh. Yeah. Adam Dean: Like I said, even though I dread I've never ran away from one. I do feel like they're almost never as bad as you really, really expect them to be. And another quote that's kind of stuck with me is ⁓ Colin Powell always said, leadership solving problems. And the time that people stop bringing problems to you is this time that you stop leading. And you know, and we kind of always joke around here that, you know, being a school administrator is like Shane: Ooh, that's really good too. Adam Dean: And this is any leadership positions, being a firefighter, right? You're always you're always trying to f put the problems out, you know. ⁓ hopefully before they come a bigger problem. as far as people approaching me, it's kind of interesting that you say that. My union leadership came to me a couple years ago and said, How can we bring ⁓ things to you what's so it doesn't seem like we're just complaining to you all the time? I feel like I'm pretty visible and I try to make an effort to be Shane: Mm-hmm. Adam Dean: I mean it's it is nice at a smaller district, so if you're a superintendent in a district of multiple buildings this would be tougher. But I I'm out and about all day. I mean anybody can grab me at any time, but I just think if it's a legit I guess I'd go back to the beginning, how I said, do you have a problem or do you have a complaint? You know, if you if you truly have a problem that we can solve and is the it's it's for the best for kids, then let's see what we can do. I Shane: Uh-huh. Adam Dean: I feel like I like a challenge. That's something that I I appreciate it. I don't I don't like coming in. I mean honestly it gets kinda boring if it's just quiet. Even though you definitely like a quiet day every now and then, right? But I I do enjoy a challenge in trying to you know, improve this place. So how can we make this place better? That's what I I'm passionate about. This district had a great reputation before I came here. It'll have a great reputation after I leave, but What can we do to make this place better? Whether it's a building, whether it's our, you know, our students learning, whether it's staff, you know, contentment, what can we do to make this place better? But I d I guess for me is just to bring it to me, instead of complaining behind closed doors, let's just have a real conversation about what we can do to make it better. So Shane: Yeah, how how can we be a part of the solution and not just add to the problem? Yep. Well. Hey, I appreciate your time. This is a good conversation. I love talking leadership with you. I think you're a great leader and I'm so thankful for what you are doing for the people in our communities. Adam Dean: Correct. Yep. So Yeah, I appreciate it. This has been good. Thank you very much. Yep. See ya. Yep. Shane: Alright, thanks buddy. Talk to you soon. Bye.