Shane: Well, we are in a series right now that we've been calling Crucial Conversations. And this past weekend was one of my favorites. You know, have have you ever had somebody come to you and they they're frustrated with another person and within just a few minutes you realize, no, I'm being pulled into a conflict that I was never even asked to be a part of. Or maybe you're a person who you go to somebody else and you say, I just need to process something, but if you're being honest, you're not looking for wisdom. What you're looking for is for somebody to tell you that you're right. And this past weekend we looked at the conflict between Miriam, Aaron, and Moses in Numbers chapter twelve. They they had a problem with Moses, but instead of going and talking to him, they went and they talked about him. And I'm really excited for today because I am joined today by Ted Max. Ted is a pastor who has spent years leading churches, developing leaders, helping people navigate the difficult realities of relationships and organizational life. And as a pastor, you you always have these different guys that you're always looking to or you look up to. And Ted is one of those guys for me. And so, Ted, thank you for joining me today. I'm excited to talk about some of these topics, some of these these things that come up, not only in the church, but it happens in the workplace too. And so if it's good with you, I will besides complimenting you on your shirt because it looks like we're wearing the exact same shirt, I'd love to just go ahead and jump into some of these questions. Ted Max: I love it. Yeah, it's great to be here. I'm excited for what God is doing in and at your church and through your leadership, Shane. And so thanks for inviting me into the conversation because I think these are, as you said, crucial conversations when it comes to how we navigate conflict. So yeah, I'm excited. Let's let's do it. Shane: All right. Well, in the story that we talked about this weekend, you had Miriam and Aaron, and they have this problem with Moses, but instead of going and talking to Moses, they just stay with each other and they talk about him. And so through all of your experience, why do you think it is so much easier to discuss someone when they're not in the room than it is to look them in the eye and just have that heart to heart? Ted Max: Yeah. I think the way I would describe it is something that someone else said, and I wish I could quote who it was, because it'd really be brilliant. But it's that last ten percent. I don't know if you ever heard that statement, you know, like we have the ninety percent. People will share contextually with others ninety percent truth. And it's not that we're, you know, devious, it's not that we're trying to not be, you know, good people, it's that that last ten percent could be the most critical in relationships and in leadership and in, you know, workplace environments. But a lot of times that last percent, ten percent, we have a fear of what what what's gonna happen if I say it? Like how will they respond? Will I hurt their feelings? Will I hurt their relationship? And so even though the 10%'s valuable, I think it's easier to talk about someone instead of to someone because it almost give us a gives us a place where we can say the thing we wouldn't say to them and we can see how it lands. And we're afraid to say it to the person 'cause like it would land horribly because it's about them. And at Shane: Mm-hmm. Ted Max: least that's been my experience, because I mean in this story, I've been Moses. And I've been Aaron, Shane: Absolutely. Ted Max: I've been both. And so how do you navigate it is a it's a hard thing 'cause it's like you wanna be honest, but then there's a fear factor. And I think it's just fear. Fear drives a lot of our lives and I think it does in these conversations specifically. Shane: And what I love about all these stories that we've been diving into is it does it yes, it it relates to the church, but I also see how this relates to where we work. It works it relates to our families. And you see the dangers whenever somebody is talking bad about somebody else's back in all of those different areas. Ted Max: Yeah. Yeah. And I think it comes down right at the end of the day, it comes down to relationship. Right. So if you've got a really good relationship, you've got trust, you've got an expectation in your mind that this person's for you, not against you, it that last Shane: Mm-hmm. Ted Max: 10% becomes a lot easier to to navigate with someone. Like I can have an honest conversation when there's trust. The biggest issue is when there's lack of trust. Like I don't trust what the leader will do if I say the thing that I need to say. Shane: Mm-hmm. Ted Max: I don't trust what my daughter will do. If I say the thing that I need to say, I definitely don't trust or do I trust what my wife will say if I say the thing that I need to say. So you're not wrong. It's not just church. I think it's it's life. It's just Shane: Yes. Ted Max: any interaction we have. Shane: Well, let's say you leave a meeting and you're angry and you call somebody that you trust and you say, I just need to process this. How can you tell whether you're genuinely seeking wisdom or if you're just trying to get somebody on your side? Because I think a lot of times we're just trying to recruit allies and say, Hey, I need you to real quick to tell me all the reasons that I'm right. Ted Max: Yeah. I think my experience has been it's both. I'd love to say it's one or the other. I I don't meet a lot of people that are purists. Like I'm just wanting someone to confirm me and confirm my bias and I don't I don't care about wisdom. I think even if we are looking for someone to join us, I think there is a piece of us that's also looking for wisdom. And so that's why I think the best people to call are the people that know what's happening. Like that there's a maturity on the other side of the phone. Like I'll give an example. I've got a a pastor friend at a huge church in Texas that he's my guy. Like I call when I'm like, hey man, I I gotta find out if I'm crazy. Can I run a scenario by you? but what I know is I know that he knows me enough that he knows that when I'm leaning towards I want someone to stand with me, he'll actually say that, hey Ted, I'm with you. I think you absolutely were right in this situation. But can I now give you some wisdom and Shane: yeah. Ted Max: and maneuver you back to the side of I want you to see where they were coming from from my experience? Here's what they're probably thinking. And so maybe it's not that you're wrong, but maybe it's not that you're right. And and I think there's a balance in there to go. You can't always be a hundred percent right, and you're probably not a hundred percent wrong. But it's kind of like in all the years you've done ministry, Shane, there's probably you've sat with married couples where they have two sides of the story and they're both Shane: Mm-hmm. Ted Max: being a hundred percent honest about what they believe and see in the marriage. But what you and I both know is the truth is where? It's in the middle. Shane: Yeah. Somewhere in the middle. Ted Max: It's in the middle. And I think that's true when we call and look for Wisdom and counsel, but we're also looking for someone to confirm us. And I don't think that's bad. I just think we have to have enough self-evaluation to know that's what we're probably doing. I think that's why we do social media the way we do. That's why algorithms are the way they're written, is because it puts you into an echo chamber where go, I Shane: Mm-hmm. Ted Max: am right about politics. I am right about life, I am. But you gotta have enough wisdom to go, I probably have some things I'm I'm right about, but there's probably room. For wisdom and counsel that needs to be added in to what I believe is true. Shane: I really like what you just said too though about your friend out in Texas who he will tell you that you're right, but he's also the kind of friend that's gonna tell you the different areas that you still need to hear. Because if you just have Ted Max: yeah. Shane: somebody that's gonna be a yes man, that n that isn't necessarily the best thing for us. We need somebody can speak that truth in love. Ted Max: No. Yeah, absolutely. In fact, I think that's the most important thing you get. In fact, if you have someone that only tells you you're right all the time, they're not your person. And I know that's hard to say, but like if you got someone that every time you call them, like, you are a hundred percent right all the time. Like, I love you and I want to hang out with you because you're fun, probably, but you're probably not who I'm calling if I need actual counsel and wisdom. I need someone who can look me in the eyes and go, Hey, I love you, but I think you're absolutely wrong on this. And I'm gonna give you three reasons why. And then let's pray about Shane: Mm-hmm. Ted Max: it. I'm gonna pray that. The Holy Spirit changes your heart and your mind. And I can't tell how many times I've had to get that counsel into my life. Shane: Well, that kind of touches on the next thing that I was gonna ask you. So in our story that we looked at this past weekend in church, Aaron and Miriam, they start off, they start complaining about Moses' wife, but that really wasn't the problem. They were upset about Moses leadership. And so have you ever been in a conversation before where somebody they they say something to you and it strikes a little bit of a nerve? And so you're you're furious, and then later on you kind of Or replaying the conversation in your mind and you think, okay, why is it though that I'm really upset? Because that comment on on its own, it shouldn't have upset me like it did. how can we, as we are into the the middle of these crucial conversations, how can we know when there might be a little bit of validity that I need to look at? You said that you're, you know, you'll you'll have somebody say, Hey, I got some things that I want you to think about and pray about. How can we get to that point? Because I think a lot of times it is insecurities that are fueling the conflict. Ted Max: Yeah, I think that you're 100% right. It is insecurities because it's it's it's two things, right? So you got the way I see it, at least my perspective is there's a trust gap, right? and the trust gap is sometimes there and it can be a small gap, it can be a big gap, it can be based on your interactions with this specific person. But let's let's play it even further than that. There are some things that affect the trust gap that have nothing to do with that person, right? I'll I I just my experience and my years of counseling now that I've had to go through. there are times that I will snap at something in my head, even if it doesn't come out of my mouth, and in my heart, even if it doesn't come out of my mouth, that has more to do with baggage I'm carrying from years before than it has to do with what's happening in the moment. 'Cause I look for you know, I'm I'm I'm a data pattern person. Like I make a lot of decisions based on data. If the data says it, there's something there, but feelings and facts aren't always the same. And the problem is is that when you're carrying data from things that have gone wrong in the past when you've trusted people or you've trusted they were looking out for your good but they weren't, and then you find out later on they weren't, I can then carry that baggage to a brand new relationship and it has nothing to do with the person. And so I think there's this there's this thing that has to happen inside you, right? Where you've got to recognize, okay, is this the person? Is it what they said or is it baggage that I'm carrying? And I find that majority of the time I can snap to a place and make the trust gap bigger from previous experience more than it has to do with the person. And so then I have to go through a little bit of process in my mind and heart to go, okay, maybe it's not them, maybe it's me. And then how do I bring it back to the person? And then then it becomes, do you share that with them? And I've kind of gotten to this point where now I just do. this just happened recently to me where I told the person, hey, I'm carrying something from something you said. I don't think it was you. I think it was me. And let me tell you what happened to me. And why and so I actually end up sharing a piece of my past. So they can go, my gosh, I didn't know that. Or they'll go, Well, actually is something else I wanted to tell you. And I I didn't have the guts to say it. But now that you've opened up one of your weaknesses to me, now let me open up about my weakness with you. And it's crazy how all of a sudden the thing that I went through becomes the thing that carries forward the conversation for us to actually have a real conversation because they go, you've been hurt. Well, I've been hurt too, and I was hurt by a person in your position, a person that was a pastor, a person whatever it is. And I find out both of us were carrying baggage that created this conflict, and it wasn't actually the two of us. It was stuff from our past that then we bring to the current relationship. Shane: That is really good advice. you know, and it's honestly not something that goes through my mind of sharing because yes, definitely somebody can say something to me or about my leadership and it stings. And you have to think about why did that sting so bad? Well, sometimes it's because it's an insecurity that I'm carrying. Somebody had said, you're not approachable and then you you carry that with you instead of just going to the person and saying, Hey, I've been burned in the past and this is one of the things that really stung I'm pr I'm sure you didn't mean it that way, but can we talk about this? That that brings the the the temperature down. Ted Max: Yeah. Well it builds a bridge. It builds a bridge. Like, hey, I'm I'm I and it's I think it's a problem in church, right? Shane, people look at you when you're on a stage and go, Pastor Shane, he can do no wrong. And it's like, gosh, no, let's open up the curtain. And Shane Shane: Yep. Ted Max: is human. Shane's got insecurities, sh Shane's got sins that he's worked on for years, that bray their heads from time to time. Shane is working on sanctification still, like like it's all the things that I think people can forget that we all carry all this stuff. all the baggage and all of a sudden when you can relate with somebody on a weakness and go, Hey, I've I some things where I've been hurt, then go, man, well I've got some things where I've been hurt. Well great. Can we have a real conversation? Cause we both of us don't want to be hurt and I don't want to hurt you and you don't want to hurt me. And now we're finding common ground versus fighting over things that to be honest have nothing to do with that other person. Shane: Yep. And I I think that you've kind of already answered a question that I I'd love to get your opinion on because this is something it doesn't matter what church that I've worked for worked at. I've worked in the secular world as well. But you know, a lot of times you can say, Hey, my door is always open. If you ever have a problem, let's let's talk about it. You can always be honest with me, but yet still somebody doesn't feel like it's safe to come to you. You can you can communicate that a lot. And you just talked about building a bridge, but what other steps? Because I'm in a position leadership. You're in a position leadership. You see lots of people who are in our churches that are in leadership. And I think that's probably one of the biggest things when it comes to culture is you say we've got an open door policy, but yet people still don't feel like they can come to you. How can we how can we develop it? We're working on that as a a team right now. Ted Max: This opens up such a bigger conversation. gosh, and it touches on a bunch of stuff in my past because I I came from an environment just recently where that was the issue where like they they we signed employee handbooks that say, Hey, here's how we do conflict resolution. We have the Bible that tells us here's how you do conflict resolution. But how does that conflict resolution work in a leadership structure where the person that you want to go and talk to and complain against or to has the power to hire, fire remove you from Shane: Yeah. Ted Max: leadership. And so now there's a fear of, hey, if I'm honest with you, you say I can talk to you about anything. But if I share what it is that I want to share, will there be retaliation? Will there be right? So Matthew 18 says go to the person. Well, does that work when the person's in leadership? You know, and I bet if you asked Moses, Moses would be like, yes, it does. You should have come to me. But I so what I started doing with staff, and and this is something I've done for years, is, you know, I love Matthew 18. We put it in our handbooks. But I always tell people, hey, listen, We love the heart of Matthew 18. And if you don't know what that is, if you're watching this podcast, Matthew 18 is a biblical standard for unpacking conflict. It starts with going to the person. If the person doesn't hear you, receive it. Then you get another person, a brother or sister in Christ to come with you. Now two of you come, you address the conflict. If it's still not resolved, then it elevates. It kind of goes up the chain of command at the church to eventually where elders get involved and leadership gets involved, and then they go to the person. But I always told people, we can skip step one. If you are nervous about authority or leadership, skip step one, but don't skip step two. Don't go to step, you know, 4B, which is your version of it. Go talk about me or talk about the situation with the staff and then pool a bunch of resources and get people riled up and then then deal with it. Grab Shane: Yeah. Ted Max: one person that you trust so there's accountability in the room. And you can come to me with my door open, but instead of it just being you, I promise that if you bring a second person with you, I will receive what it is that you need to say. But now there's accountability. There's a a second person in the room that can say, I was there, I saw the conversation, I heard what was said, Shane: Mm-hmm. Ted Max: my emotion wasn't in it because it wasn't mine, but I was able to be there to support both people. And I think there's something that's great that happens when you do that because it forces the person who might be in authority who doesn't like what they're hearing to recognize there's another person in the room that now is watching it. And so now that's like, okay, there's a there's an accountability layer, but then they can't misconstrue what was said because there's a third party there. And so I have found that that is an effective way in culture and work when you're dealing with conflict is to invite somebody else into it. And it just needs to be a trusted person when you're in leadership. is it perfect? No. But is it at least God honoring and it's biblical? Yes. And so how do you balance those? I think is what you try to figure out in a work environment, work world. Shane: That is really good stuff. I I love that option skipping step one. do you think that there's so I I think that that's great to bring somebody along with you. Who you bring along with you, do you think that that so let's talk about, okay, you and I are in a position of leadership for the but for the person that's coming to the leader, what should that second person look like? Ted Max: So I'll give you what I like and I'll give you what usually happens. Shane: Okay. Ted Max: what usually happens is it ends up being someone that's their friend, someone that's their trusted confidant, which makes sense. They want to grab someone that's their person, kind of like we talked about in the first question. Like they find the person that's like, I'm with you, right? I think the best person isn't that person. I think the best person is someone who is either equal to or above the person that you're going to. So I'll give you the best example Shane: Mm-hmm. Ted Max: of that. Is I had a staffer one time that needed to say something to me. They were nervous to say it to me. And so what they did was is they called someone on my leadership team. And so someone that in a sense was my boss or a part of collection. And they Shane: My yes, exactly. Mm-hmm. Ted Max: said, Would you go with me to Ted and be in the room? Now the great news is because I had a good relationship with that board, he was like, Absolutely. And so he shows up to the meeting and they told me in f beforehand, it wasn't like, I've walked into your office and here's one of the elders with me. It was more like, hey, I'm coming in and I'm bringing so and so with me. Can I set up this meeting? I was like, Yeah, sure. So He comes in, and of course, his first thought as the elder is one, he loves me. He loves our church, he loves our mission, he loves our vision, and he loves our staff. And so he's in a position where one, I have to recognize he's got some authority. He could take it to the team that makes decisions about me. But I know his heart is right for the church and for the staff. And so he wants resolution. And so it created this really beautiful moment where he said what he needed to say. I went, I received that. And then my my elder was able to go, Are you good? Are you good? Hey, can we close this thing out in prayer? And then, hey, if there's anything in the future you need, man, you can always come to me. And Ted, are you cool with that? And I'm like, I'm cool with it. And then now we've built a bridge between a staffer and a board member that wasn't Shane: Mm-hmm. Ted Max: there. And then now the board member at least was in the conversation to go, okay, I was there, so I know that this was going on. If this becomes systemic, then maybe it is Ted. It created a safe space for everybody. so I think that was a good choice to bring someone in leadership, not just a friend. I think it gives more opportunity for resolution to truly happen. Shane: Yeah, because then it's not a two against one. That's where I was Yep. Somebody Ted Max: Right. Yep. Shane: that's got the ability and so that can look like a lot of things. in if you're having a problem with your supervisor, you just go and you get somebody that's on the same level or above and bring them along and yep, absolutely. Ted Max: Above. Yeah. And if you don't feel safe, I think as a leader, you also have to reserve the right that if you don't feel safe to go, hey, you're bringing somebody with you that's my my my boss or same level, great. Do you mind if I have another person in the room as well? Just 'cause it'd be great to have. That way we're just sure that that we've got good 'cause I'd hate for it to be two on one, like you said, and then I'm sitting here going, Well, here's what was said in the meeting, and then the two go, Nope, that's not what was said. It's like, Well, wait a minute, I was there. And so there's something to be said about that. Like having a if you don't feel safe as a leader, I think it's also okay to ask, Hey, is it cool if I bring somebody with me just to be in the room to make sure that everything that's said is clear. Shane: That's a lot of wisdom there. You know, I've I'm far from perfect and I've gotten better at receiving feedback as I've as I've gotten older, got more years of leadership under my belt. but there's times where people will bring this can be people in the church, it can be people on staff. It just you know, this r applies to all different areas. But there's times when somebody will bring a complaint to you and you're listening to it and you know that ninety percent of what they're saying is This is couldn't be further from the truth, but sometimes there is 10% that they're telling you that's accurate. And sometimes that 10% is exactly what we need to hear. But used to, when I was going into that, I hear that 90% and I just immediately start to shut down and my defenses go up of no, that's not how this happened. Let me, let me tell you. how can we how can we keep the 90% from us hearing the 10% that we really need to focus on? Ted Max: Yeah. can I say I don't know? Can I is that Shane: Yeah, absolutely. Ted Max: a viable answer? I think I think that is so hard because there's so much more than that going on in that moment, right? So it comes down to who's bringing the the ninety percent. That changes the dynamic, or the ten percent, right? And then can you navigate and that's just it's maturity, right? All right. So you said it, you're getting your aging, you're getting older, there's maturity that's setting in. I think you get better at hearing the ten percent. when you get, I guess, more wisdom, more grounded, more, I don't know what the word is, but as you develop, sure you can get the 10. But the question becomes, does that mean you don't defend against the 90? Right? So and I think that's where the cause what it can look like is in your heart you go, I I receive there's something in there for me. But this 90 is so far off that I I need to defend, right? And so I I wish I could say that I have a good answer because my my inclination still is I'm I'm such a truth guy. I want the truth more than anything. And so when I find out there's not truth. Shane: Uh-huh. Ted Max: Everything in me is like, no, no, no. This has got to be done right. I want everyone to know what actually happened. So much Shane: Yep. Ted Max: so that I I'm the guy that like I'm now, and this might sound bad, maybe this is bad advice. You might to cut this from our video. But I keep a camera now in my office and I've gotten to the point where now I use AI to record meetings. I let people know what's happening now. and I just say, hey, I'm gonna record this and it's it's here for me to have notes from the meeting. But what I'm really doing is I'm saying I want another option on the table that I know that if this ever comes back that they said she said they did, dah dah dah, that I can go, well, let's let's check the recording. and some people don't love that because the truth is I think sometimes people like the fact that they can go, well, I heard what I heard versus, well, let's all listen to it together and see what we heard. And it's sad that we've come into a space where that's the reality. But I mean, my last two jobs, I had a camera in my office and I would tell people if they came to meet with me, there's a camera up there. It's watching and listening to everything that's being said. And I actually think it probably detoured some people who had I'm gonna say malintent. because they're like, wait, well, who has access to it? I said, anyone on my board, if I want to, I can share Shane: Yep. Ted Max: the video with them. So I just want you be aware. And it's sad that we're in a space like that now in culture and the world, but like you and I both know people can say anything they want. And then the consequences roll. Yeah. And even Shane: Like an accusation and it takes you down. Yep. Ted Max: if ten percent's true, the ninety percent that isn't. The people that are listening to it, so let's play out scenario, Shane. Someone comes to you and says, blah, blah, blah, about Shane's leadership and as a pastor, and and you go, well, 10% of that's true, 90% of it's wrong. Well, the issue is is when they share that with someone else, that other person has to go, how much do I trust Shane? Is it really 10%? And then which is the 10%? It doesn't matter. The damage has been done. So unless there's another thing going on, all right, I can verify that 90% was wrong, it's done damage to you as a leader, to the church, to the relationship, to the you name it. It's just, and the devil loves it. He's just like, this is Yeah, sure there's only ten percent, but he loves watching the church do this over something because all it takes is a little bit of truth, tied it with a bunch of untruth, and then it leaves ambiguity for all the people to go, Well, well, how much of the truth is truth and how much of the untruth is untrue? So Shane: Mm-hmm. Yep. Ted Max: I don't know. Shane: Would say the one of the things that's been really good for me is we went through the book Crucial Conversations. That's where the whole idea for this sermon series came from. But it was talking about stating the the the mutual goal. So you and I we both want to see the church grow. So stating that at the very beginning. And so I'm willing to listen to somebody, even if 90% of what they're saying is from a skewed lens. If if I know, if I truly believe that they have the same goal as me, if they came and said, Hey, Shane, you want to see the church grow. I want to see the church grow. I want to reach people. If I know that that's true, I'm willing to listen and say, okay, that's a skewed view. That's a skewed view. But their heart really is. They want to see the church grow. I'm listening and okay, I need to take that into consideration because I really do believe that you want what's best for me and you want what's best for the church. And so there is validity. to that. Now that's not always easy because I do think at least for me, my first reaction is to get defensive of, no, no, no. Let me not l let me explain this. Let me tell Ted Max: Yeah. for sure. Let me correct you. Shane: let me tell you why you're wrong. Yeah. Ted Max: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, same. Shane: Yep. So yeah, that's that's something that I've been working on. I don't have it mastered by any means at all. But yeah, that's that's that's at least Ted Max: Yeah, that's a hard one. Shane: how I'm going with the 10%. Ted Max: I love it. I think it's great. I it's I think it's an exercise you work on through your whole life. And I once again I do believe it has to do with who the person is and do you trust their intent. And you you nailed it there. I think if you trust their intent is for good, it becomes easier to find the ten percent. if you don't trust their intent is good, it's real hard to find the ten percent, I think. Shane: Well, this has probably been the fastest twenty-five minutes that I've done on a podcast because this has just been flowing and I'm haven't coming up with so many questions just as we go. But since we're running running low on time, I feel like there's no doubt, especially after the sermon this weekend, after listening to the podcast podcast, there's probably a really good chance that somebody's name came to mind whenever we were talking. So for the listener, they they know who they're supposed to have a conversation with. And if they've been avoiding a conversation, what would you tell them, Ted, that they need to examine them in their own heart? And then what would you say in like, here's what you need to do, here's the game plan, sixty seconds, what what is it? Ted Max: All right. I would start with that whatever conversation you're dreading is not gonna be as bad as you've imagined in your head it's gonna be. And I think that's just a true statement for like ninety-nine percent of hard c crucial conversations is we catastrophize in our head so much, like, it's gonna be the worst thing ever. It's gonna blow up, it's gonna destroy this, destroy that. Like we just come in like it's the worst. But for the most part, if we're really honest, if we go back to those conversations, they're never that bad. So number one, start with the reality that in your head. It's worse in your head than it probably is going to be in the conversation. So number one. Number two is come up with a plan. based on the on the scenario, who the person is, their relationship, all these things matter. Who needs to go with you, who needs to be praying for you. and then if those answers are just me, great. Get some people praying for you as you go into it. A spouse, a friend, Shane: Yeah. Ted Max: a pastor, whatever, whoever. and then schedule it. Like just do it. Like send the text. Like right now, as I'm talking, Shane: Mm-hmm. Ted Max: you're like, all right, I what you need to do. I'm gonna just send say, hey, can we chat? Can we connect? Shane: What yep. Ted Max: And when you finish the podcast, Have the convo and it doesn't have to perfect. In fact, go in with the idea that it's not perfect. In fact, open with that, hey, this is gonna be perfect, and just be honest. I've been struggling having this convo you. And there's a lot of grace when people say that to me, like, I've been worried about this, I've been fretting about it, I've been because then it makes me go, I must scare you. Okay, well, what what did I so it puts me in Shane: Yeah. Ted Max: almost a vulnerable space? So I would say don't wait, don't catastrophize and come up with a plan and then just execute. And I think that's that's advice for life, right? stop avoiding stuff. Make a plan and go do it. And that could be with your health. That could be with your life. But man, when it comes to conversations and relationships, just get into it because you'll be happy when it's done. The other side is better, I promise, than being on the front side of it. Shane: Yeah, growing up as a kid, my dad always told us, if you gotta swallow a frog, don't look at it too long. And there's so much wisdom in that. And Ted Max: Yeah. Shane: the longer that you put it off, all you're doing is you're letting hard feelings grow, you're letting resentment grow. And so it just makes it so much tougher when you finally have the conversation. And I love in your advice because I am so guilty of this. You just said get people to pray, pray about it. What I'm guilty of, and I just was writing a a message on this earlier today, is I worry. And I worry way more than I should and I create these problems. And so then what I do is I go and I'll talk to somebody like you, like, okay, Ted, I'm facing this. give me some advice and I'll do research and I do all these things and then almost at the end I go to God and I say, Hey God, I got my fifty two point plan and this is what I'm gonna do. Instead of going to him first and saying, I'm about to enter a tough conversation, I Ted Max: Yeah. Shane: wanna start with you. Ted Max: Yeah. That's pretty normal. We we put together the plan before we go to the person that has the the power to change everything. Which is wild that we're that dumb. Like like Shane: Yeah. Yep. Ted Max: prayer is like the last resort when it should be our first response about everything. Shane: Everything. Yep. Well hey, I've really enjoyed this conversation. Thank you so much for taking the time to visit with me and do this today. Ted Max: Absolutely, Shane. Thanks for having me. I'm excited for your church as you guys continue to have crucial conversations. I hope it brings a lot of fruit, a lot of healing, and a lot of connection for your people. So thanks for doing it. Thanks for stepping out and leading that way, bro. Shane: Thanks, Ted.