Shane: Well, we have been in this series called Crucial Conversations, where we're looking at some different conversations in scripture that changed a person's life. And sometimes those conversations would even change history. And this past weekend we were in Acts 9. And in Acts 9, Saul encountered Jesus and he experienced this radical transformation. But the people who remember what he did, they're not really convinced that Paul's changed. And Ananias is a guy that had to decide whether or not he was going to walk towards somebody that he fears. And then Barnabas in the story, he has to decide whether he's going to risk his own reputation in order to try to help Saul out. And so it's this story about change, forgiveness, trust, courage, and the people who bridge that gap between who somebody was and who somebody was trying to become. And so to help us explore that today, I'm excited because I get the opportunity to talk to my good friend Tim Harlow. And Tim, you've wrote a few books that kind of get to the heart of Acts 9. God tells Ananias he wants him to go and find Saul, a man who's been hunting down and persecuting all these Christians. And maybe, maybe Ananias wasn't hurt directly by Saul, but he definitely had people in his life who were ⁓ who were affected by Saul and his decisions. And so let's go ahead and get started. I'd love to ask you, why do you think it is so hard for people to believe that somebody has genuinely changed, especially whenever that person has either hurt us or maybe they've hurt people that are close to us?

tim harlow: First of all, wearing my One C. Jacksonville lifelong vision shirt.

Shane: Yeah, I love that.

tim harlow: First of all, I ⁓ I think ⁓ that we all are students of human nature to know that there's a high likelihood that somebody that comes to us and says they've changed is going to relapse, is going to go back to their old ways, is kind of back to their self. I mean, honestly, the story of of Paul, Saul Paul, is pretty insane when you think about it, because I mean it was a total conversion. I mean the question for us to answer is what about ⁓ my ex or what about this person know, this ⁓ my alcoholic father who who says he's changed and he's coming to me and and whatever and I wanna I wanna help him find his way to Jesus. I I'm just making up a theoretical situation, know that there that there's a very good likelihood that they relapse.

Shane: Yeah.

tim harlow: I mean Ananias and Barnabas don't know if he's just sneaky, if this is just some covert way of of Paul getting in to what he thought he was called to do or or what. But after a while you kinda realize I mean, Paul completely changed sides. So ⁓ he and he never went back. I mean it's not like he's gonna go back being a Pharisee. I mean th there's all kinds of conflict that he has along the way, but but this is a really cut and dry situation. I think the trick is those of us that know these people, you know, Ananias Barnabas didn't know Saul, so they didn't really know who he was. What about Pete and again, people to your point, he hasn't probably hurt them. He may have hurt people that they knew, he may have arrested and had them killed. But we don't know. But there's none of that backstory for us. The the problem for us is we have the backstory, and we know who these people are. And that is it comes down. to the big effort, the forgiveness word, and what if they do relapse, what if they do hurt me again? Is it worth it to help them find their way to God, even if I I see them in heaven someday and I'm still gonna be mad at ⁓ What is it worth it? You know? That that's the question.

Shane: Right. So you you kind of touched on, but how do we remain open to somebody's transformation without minimizing that, hey, they have caused some harm? You you gave some really great possibilities, really great examples of some ⁓ harm that people maybe have caused ⁓ in our lives or to somebody that we love. So how do we remain open to that transformation without minimizing, hey, you did hurt me or you did hurt my family member or my close friend?

tim harlow: Well, I i i it's funny because in the life I'm in the book I talk about my micro friend Mike and ⁓ I think he's been a really great example for me. He he was somebody that I really worked hard personally really helped him find his way to Jesus, you know, baptized him. And we ended up baptizing some of his friends together, some rival gang members even. Crazy cool stories. But he had two ex-wives and a a wife that he was with at the time and he was just ⁓ chronically unfaithful and kept screwed things up and and kept getting in trouble with with ⁓ you know getting too close to his ex-wife who had you know an order protection and he did that at church one time and it made me mad but I you know I he he it just it just r I just realized he just kept doing dumb stuff after dumb stuff and and and now he's in some other country because he fled the country because he did something else wrong. I had no contact with him. So in the middle of a relationship with a person, now he didn't hurt me directly, but he directly hurt some of my very close friends. And you know, in the middle of all of that, you still have to go back to is is is it worth it for me to do this, to change his life on earth, and is it worth it for me to change his eternity to be in the middle of this? At the same time though Shane, man, there's there's gotta be boundaries, you know. I mean when he fled the country I I texted with him a few times but kind of just cut it off because I was just like I'm I'm I'm not I'm I'm not gonna keep doing this. And I think you know for for purposes of what you where you're going with this one, I think it's really important that ⁓ people realize ⁓ you know, Henry Cloud wrote a great book on it, boundaries. It it's it's a Forgiveness doesn't mean ⁓ acceptance. Forgiveness doesn't mean I'm gonna let them back into my life and let them have the power to hurt me even if they do relapse. Now for Ann Ice and Arnabus, they're putting their reputations on the line. But at some point if salt turns out to be salt and doesn't ever burn into salt, at some point it's just their reputations and everybody's gonna go, Well, it was good of you to try and you know I I mean it Maybe they're afraid for their lives, maybe they're afraid to get to know them and they and they could die. I think it there's some call of Jesus on us that there's a call to the cross no matter what. I mean, if it's really about if it's really about my safety, I have a reason to put up boundaries. If it's around my family's safety, I have a reason to put up boundaries. But to try to do ministry without any openness to hurt It's basically impossible. And I can tell you that as a guy who was a you know, was a a located pastor for forty plus years. ⁓ big part of the job is about ⁓ you know, Mr. T, w I have one one word for you, pain. That's that's what it is. I mean it it's people you gotta let people in your lives and then they're gonna hurt ya. And then they're gonna leave. You're gonna they're gonna go to some other church or they're gonna say bad things about you on social media or or whatever. I mean that that's that's just how it works. And if you're if you're not open to that, ⁓ y you can't really do any kind of So you can't really rely on vision if you're afraid of being hurt.

Shane: Well, that's a really good segue into the next thing that I got for you because you're talking about living life on mission and your book, Life on Mission, was kind of the playbook that we use as a church to to live our lives on mission. And in your book you you write about Christians recognizing that people around them they matter deeply to God and accepting the assignments that the assignment that we have to help invite them home. And Ananias, he probably didn't know that morning he was ⁓ going to be on a mission field and he was gonna have to go and and reach this man that all the Christians at that time feared. But for him, living on mission meant that he had to walk down the street, he had to enter a house, and he had to have an incredibly uncomfortable conversation with Saul, who would later become Paul. So how does Acts nine, how does that reshape what it means to live life on mission?

tim harlow: Well. Did kind of touch on that already, but you you said uncomfortable. I don't know if you were setting me up exactly, but mission is uncomfortable. That should be a quote out of the book that I did put in there. ⁓ mission is uncomfortable. ⁓ when you think of you know, most of the world thinks of mission, they think of you know going to Africa or whatever. Well, guess what? That was uncomfortable. You think of missionaries who have gone and and lost their lives, you know. the Jim Elliott's and the and the and the great stories of of martyrs who who have been on mission. But being on mission is uncomfortable. I mean in my book I I mentioned the story of, you know, going to work out with with Mike and he had a strip club t shirt on and and he wouldn't change it no matter what how I tried to get him to do it. And I had to I had to realize that, you know, I'm gonna be working out with a you know, this big biker dude and and it was a really inappropriate appropriate not I don't know if there's appropriate strip club t-shirts but it was super had a super bad saying on it you know and a curl on a pole and and I'm just like come on dude every you know people in here go to my church no he wasn't gonna do it ⁓ it and and and at the same time you know you go back and you look at Jesus ⁓ so Jesus goes to he calls Matthew the tax collector which would be the next to the bottom or the bottom category of sin it ⁓ in that in that realm, prostitutes and tax collectors, one way or the other. And and then he he he he goes over, invites himself over to Matthew's house. Everybody's talking about him, right? Everybody everybody's doing that. And and and and Jesus is with the sinners he just with the sinners, he with the tax collectors. Jesus was Always uncomfortable. Let's go hang out in the in the graveyard with the demoniac. Let's go to the woman at the well in Samaria where we're not even supposed to be in the first place. And we're gonna go talk to this woman who's at the well at noon because she's out of us from her own society. And we're gonna go hang out with her and we're gonna tell her very first time ever in human history that we're the Messiah. I mean this is this is if we're gonna be Jesus follow this is who we are. And it's uncomfortable.

Shane: Yeah, and yeah, and I think that you're right. You said, you know, that maybe you should have ⁓ included that bit that quote, but we don't do a very good job as a church of letting people know that living on mission i it's not safe, it's not comfortable. ⁓ it's it requires you to go out of your comfort zone. I can't imagine how scary that ⁓ you know, the Ananias situation would have felt. But yeah, every day that we live life on mission, it's gonna put us in uncomfortable spots and We have to choose who we're gonna be more obedient to.

tim harlow: Let's talk to the church for a minute. Can I can I do that? I mean that's that was the big the big thing for us because I I came to ⁓ the Parkview, it was telling Park Christian Church at the time. I came there in nineteen ninety and it was a church that was not cool being uncomfortable. They wanted everything to be their way, you know, this is my pew, not your pew, and you know, I mean and and we're

Shane: ⁓ I'd love that.

tim harlow: To ⁓ other people coming and and being here and being a part of things. They it wasn't completely backwards at that point, but but you know, there it was just a really long journey getting them to the point. Matter of fact, one of my favorite stories, and this guy is this was the sweetest deacon man ever. ⁓ his name was Jay, and one time we're in a we're in a And ⁓ and we still had actual deacons and talking about the facilities and we had a basketball goal up out in the parking lot and kids were playing basketball out there and sometimes they littered. And so he brought up the he literally brought up the idea that we put a fence around our property to keep the neighborhood kids ⁓ off of our property. And I did exactly what you just did, Shane. I I kinda, you know, did a Blink and a inward eye roll and and I I wasn't hard on it because again this is a sweet guy and he's the one that's gonna go out there and clean up the trash. I mean he he was he was the most servant hard person ever but to get his brain on off of this is ours and on to we're supposed to be about them was just a a a massive ⁓ massively hard climb. And then once we got there I did a I did something about about strippers one time, ⁓ and how ⁓ I don't know, maybe we were getting ready to start a ministry for strippers. and I I can't even remember wh why, but I real I found out after I mean I handled it in a good way, but I think we were getting ready to start a ministry, partnered with another church to go for the ladies obviously to go to the to the clubs and minister to the girls there and try to help them. And I found out later that we had five in our services that weekend already that I didn't know about. You know, y y you don't show up y you don't you don't wear a strip club t shirt or you're a little stripper. So nobody know you know knows who these people are. But once I brought it up, it was like, ⁓ well they're they're already here. That made me feel so good. 'Cause they obviously feel welcome here already. So yeah, let's go out and and take cookies to their friends and and offering or w whatever ⁓ what was it we're gonna do at that point. It made it that much easier. But but in in the initial phases of

Shane: Mm-hmm.

tim harlow: you know, having somebody sit next to you that you know, i i i that has a different look, a differ th they're there maybe even a different orientation sexually. They're you know, they're they're they're dressed weird or maybe they're in a Republican hat and you're a Democrat or vice versa or or whatever. I mean those are uncomfortable situations that we have to be in. Because if we're comfortable, we're not on your ship.

Shane: And I tell you, one of my favorite series that we've ever done here at our church ⁓ was based off of your other book, What Made Jesus Mad, and hearing you talk about all this, it what immediately comes to mind is you said you had strippers that were attending your church and you didn't even know that they were there. But one of the things that we've ran into in ministry, and I know that you've ran into this as well, is once we start to know about somebody's past. we start identifying them from their by their past instead of by what maybe God is trying to do in their life. And I remember I had a person tell me one time in our church ⁓ they were really bothered because they noticed that we had a lot of scummy people that have been coming to our church lately. And you you think about that comment, you know, like Yeah yeah, scummy. Uh-huh a lot of scummy people. And so you you think about that.

tim harlow: Really they use that word scummy?

Shane: And it's true though, we do label people like, ⁓ man, I know what they do, and we kind of lose sight of the fact that we're sinners too. And the church was opened up to us at one point. I mean, we're still still sinners every day, but we are all scummy people. But how can we do a better job of, yeah, saying this person has a past, but they also have a future? What what kind of barriers do you see the church ⁓ unintentionally maybe creating that are keeping people who are on the outside from getting in. You you used that scarecrow ⁓ analogy whenever you preached here a few years ago and that was so good.

tim harlow: Yeah, yeah that Scarecrow thing yet Jesus is up on the cross welcoming everybody and instead we put a scarecrow up with his arms out saying saying stay away. ⁓ well I think first of all, special parking places like signs that say scum people parking only would be perfect. That's a great idea. I just had that. I still I can't get I still can't get past scummy people. ⁓ my god. yeah I I I I I I but seriously ⁓ those ⁓ those things that we do well I'll give you I'll give you a funny illustration. I I moved to the south suburb of Chicago and it's 70% Catholic. Still is. ⁓ everybody grew up Catholic and I don't un I really don't know my way around Catholicism back in that in those days. And I I Mike Glenn became my close friend as his wife passed away from cancer and and just became my best friend and obviously Michael Glenn, he's an Irish Catholic dude. So he started helping me and one day we literally walked into the church building and there was a sign. I hadn't put it up, it had been there already, that said sanctuary this way. You know, some people call the worship center the sanctuary, right? He's like, I I need to tell you, if a Catholic walks in and they see that sign, they're not gonna go that way because for a Catholic a sanctuary where the priest gets dressed. I don't I don't know why that's true, but maybe maybe he was just wrong, but I just reached up and ripped the thing off the wall immediately because those are the kind of things that we do. Anything that we do that costs us ⁓ whether it's from the stage or greeting or the facility or whatever, anything that causes people to feel uncomfortable that they don't know what's going on is wrong. So, you know, for us, ⁓ ⁓ just over explaining communion, over explaining everything that was going on for the new people. I remember I had a I had a a gal come up to me one day after an Easter service set in my mind and I had done this whole Easter sermon early on. ⁓ it was you know, we did we started on Thursday night usually for Easter. So I hopefully it was Thursday night or Friday because sh I kept talking about Friday and Sunday and the difference between this is a Friday problem, but but Sunday is the answer. So I I don't I don't know. It kept I kept using that and I saw this this gal in the lobby, she said, Hey I got a question. What what's Friday and what's Sunday? And I'm like, ⁓ man, I just assumed everybody knew Jesus was crucified on Friday and rose again on Sunday, but everybody doesn't know that, man. And so, I mean, this is to you, this is to you and I, but it's also to to the whole place. I mean, how cool is it that I had people at my Easter service that didn't know Jesus was crucified on Friday and rose again on Sunday? That that's awesome. Those are the people that we want. So ⁓ some of it's a Terminology, signage. a big part of it is the culture of the place, making sure that ⁓ and you have this because I've been there many times, but making sure that the right people are at the right doors at the right time and and that the wrong people aren't, you know what I mean? You know, ⁓ I mean I can't stand going into a a church facility and you know having you know Mr. Sourpass at the front door or him.

Shane: Uh-huh.

tim harlow: me a a bulletin or whatever and you know not shaking my hand or whatever. I mean it's just it's just a a a culture of hey you welcome here. I mean it we we used to have a saying come just as you are we had a billboard that said that for a long time with a genie on it. Come as you are. That's what that's what the the culture has to be. I don't know if I answered your question but

Shane: Yeah, that's yeah, absolutely. And I think that I I don't think that we realize how big of a role that we play in making people feel comfortable, especially the people that this is their church home, like the little things. ⁓ you see somebody and saying, Hey, we're glad that you're here or ⁓ you need help finding anything 'cause you can usually tell if somebody's newer to the church or not by how they are walking around and carrying themselves in the lobby. And the little things go a long way. Don't say this is my seat. I've always sat here. Say

tim harlow: ⁓ yeah, yeah. I'll punch you in the net. ⁓ I it we had Denise and I went and visited a church that we'd never been to ⁓ a couple of weeks ago down in Alabama and it was a fantastic experience. Almost over the top. I mean and and you know what really impressed me was how many ⁓ older ⁓ ladies came up and said hi to us. Because I'm old and my wife is an old daddy a and we just don't see ourselves that way anymore. But but it was it was it was, you know, I mean that like when a young person says something or whatever, the pastor's wife says something, you're like, Okay, great. But but the you know, these these older ladies came up and introduced themselves and asked about us and you know, we it was a smaller place. It was kind of obvious that we hadn't been there before. it's just that kind of a thing. It's just like hey go go look around a little bit. Don't put your phone in Your car and leave it there and just talk to people. You know, go back to some civility. Talk to people. Go meet somebody that you don't know. Look around. See who's kind of edgy and and looking around. ⁓ see who's scummy. Find the scummy people and go talk to them. I'm not gonna let it go. Excuse me, you look you can look kind of scummy. It's your first time.

Shane: That's right. Find those scummy people. ⁓ Yep. That that's the that's how we actually determine if somebody's ⁓ first time is ⁓ by how if how scummy they look. Hey, one of the things that we're really trying to drive home is I feel like we underestimate the the difference that small steps of obedience can make. And so we've been trying to capture the stories, doing a better job of capturing the stories. We just had a young man that ⁓ went to CIY for the first time and ⁓ we had a family in the church that wanted to pay for him to be able to go to CIY. And then he was on his way home from Florida. And on his way home from Florida, ⁓ he was with some friends, their vehicle broke down and he was stuck in your state of Tennessee. And it looked like he wasn't gonna make it back and be able to get to the bus. And some guys in our church stepped in and they paid for an Uber for him to be able to go from Tennessee to Richmond, Kentucky for a trip. And while he was at our trip, he gave his life to Christ. And last Sunday he was baptized. But it's all these little small steps of obedience that that led to that that transformation. And in our story.

tim harlow: I mean I'd have driven up there, but tank is the best, man.

Shane: Yeah, it's I I just don't I think we underestimate what the little steps of obedience do. But you know, same thing. I don't believe for a second that Ananias and Barnabas knew that this encounter with Saul was going to change the course of Christianity, that Saul was going to become this incredible ⁓ evangelist and write all these books in the Bible. So with that said, yes, absolutely. So

tim harlow: Testing.

Shane: Give our people, everybody that's listening this, what is one thing that you wish every follower of Jesus understood about living on mission and giving people room to become who God is calling them to be? Like w what is it that our church needs to leave this message with?

tim harlow: Think I think the Holy Spirit just gave me this, but i i i in this case, because of the story, I think it's you have to let go of the results. You have to let go of results. The person that you're investing in, the person that you're ⁓ feeling uneasy about welcoming in, the person that you're spending money on so that they can get an Uber to Kentucky for CIY, they may give their life to Jesus, they may become the next Billy Graham or or Mother Teresa or whoever whoever you want to go, or You might spend a ton of time and energy on that, and they may get in trouble with the law, leave the country, and may never talk to them again. You've got to let go of the results. God is the one that's in charge of it. It's not, it's not up to us. It's up to us to do the next right thing. It's up to us to do the next step of obedience. And God will help us figure that out. But I think the big deal is letting go of the results. Maybe the person is going to realize. Maybe they're gonna hurt you again. Jesus did the bread in the wine with Judas. Okay, just remember, as we follow Jesus as our Lord and Savior, he put the bread in the wine with Judas, full well what was going to happen. He let go of the results, and he still look he still washed his feet. I mean That's who we serve. That's how it's supposed to look.

Shane: good. Man, I appreciate your time today. Everybody here at our church loves you, loves hearing from you, learning from you. ⁓ I appreciate you ⁓ helping us dive into Acts nine a little bit deeper.

tim harlow: Jacksonville man, it's good that it's good talking to you, buddy. It's been too long.

Shane: Well thanks. Thanks, Tim. See you later.

tim harlow: But