Tim Williams: Hi, welcome folks. ⁓ I'm delighted to be joined by Paul Houseman today. He has a number of hats. I'm just going to mention two and then he can tell us a few more. But Paul Houseman is a PCN manager at Belgrave and Spinney Hill. That's in Leicester City. He also is a senior work well ⁓ coach as well for the city. those are a couple of titles. But Paul, for those who don't know you, and I know some of you did get to hear you at our As many of you know, in Health Coaching and Beyond, we alternate conversations between the two of us, chewing over hot topics and latest news and emerging ideas, but also bringing you conversations with thought leaders and people we admire in the field of health coaching and beyond. This week I am joined by Paul Houseman, a PCM manager in Leicester City, and also a senior Workwell coach. recent conference but for those who don't know you just give us a little bit of kind of background and then yeah what you currently up to.

Paul Houseman: Yeah, hi Tim. Thanks for inviting me on. It's great to be here. And I think my journey is quite different because I've only been in the NHS in primary care, GP land for what is now probably 13 years. Prior to that, I was in the private sector. I started off in banking, then moved to consultancy, then moved into Rolls-Royce Aerospace based in Derby.

Tim Williams: We discuss how his previous work outside of the NHS ⁓ and his more recently acquired health coaching skills inform his work. In particular, shines a light in the potential ⁓ of health coaching to support staff well-being. This not only had an effect staff sickness rates, but also built trust and an appreciation of what really mattered. To his colleagues. So, if you're wondering how you can do the same in your team, I hope you'll get some inspiration from listening to Paul.

Paul Houseman: and was all the corporate world and did all those sorts of things from originally office junior back in 1987, what 39 years ago now, good grief, and then worked away up doing different courses, supervisory management, IT, and had a great journey and then moved into the healthcare sector. and transferred all the skills. So across the different industries have been able to transfer and keep learning. And the journey over the past 13 years has been a really amazing getting back to connecting with people, real people. And that's been really fun and a lot around compliance, a lot around risk management, trying to help practices, deliver services, improve services. And as part of that journey. I became involved with the CQC and go out doing CQC inspections within primary care. So I've been on the receiving end of many CQC inspections and then going out and helping the audit teams. I always come back learning something and have a huge amount of empathy with anybody that I visit because we're all trying to do the same and it's becoming... I think more and more difficult, not just in the broader context of things. ⁓ Technology has moved on, certainly COVID gave it a spurt, but there's the high demand for everything. We're in an environment where it's expected to be delivered now with higher quality. And I think that puts not just strain on the systems, but on individuals, on people as well. So I've been fortunate to be in supervisory management positions across a number of different sectors, from banking through to consultancy, ⁓ then the aerospace, and then into the healthcare sector. And it always comes down to people.

Tim Williams: and now you find yourself again still in this very people-focused job role. So four years I think you said as a PCM manager and then the WorkWell coach a bit more recently than that but say a bit more about that.

Paul Houseman: Yep. Yeah, so the PCM manager was really to come back to the practices that I started working with many, many years ago. And I like the practices, I like the outlook, which is focused on trying to do the right things by the patients and the staff. So I think fundamentally it's been a very good environment and a good environment for staff to work in and for the patients. Then the opportunity of Workwell came along as a pilot. were Leicester, Leicester, Shrem and Woodland was a vanguard site last year, one of 15, 16 sites across the country. And that is principally low level interventions, ⁓ trying to get people back into work. So anybody with a health condition that's out of work and they want to get back into work, but they've got a health condition and they're over 16 years of age, then we signpost and help them. ⁓ try and get into work and try and support them with their health needs and also those that are in work but suffering with health conditions, it's about keeping them in work as well. So all of a sudden this programme came along in April 25 that was focused on people but not just solely from a health point of view. It was linking in the benefits of work and the benefits to individuals' lives and their health and wellbeing. So that was really exciting and interesting and I really wanted to get involved in that because it was much broader than manner management within the team. It was actually trying to look at the broader, wider determinants that have an impact on people's lives. And that then is looking at the housing, it's looking at food poverty, fuel poverty, language, CV skills, the whole caboodle that makes up individuals and lots of different barriers that people have to try and do that low-level signposting to the best agency that will be able to support the individual. So that was a refreshing challenge. I was fortunate to be able to get a good team around me that I thought would be able to ⁓ be interested, have the empathy to be able to work with people and the capacity to do that. But what we needed was training because we'd all come from different backgrounds, nobody clinical. So we're not talking any nurses or doctors or AMPs or anything like that. More administrative type of staff that have done care coordinator type of roles in the past. So we started in April and we started to work with our community centre, ⁓ the Wesley Hall, and we knew that we couldn't do this on our own. We looked at the data and thought, can we identify people that might be interested in this? So we did a bit of calling around and nobody wanted to give their national insurance number, which was a prerequisite because they were concerned that the DWP were going to take the benefits away from them if they have benefits. So engaging with the community centre, they had a different level of trust with the community. because they were offering services that were around food poverty, fuel poverty, lots of advice and guidance, lots of support sessions. And to be signed up to that, the individuals had to provide the national insurance number, but it was through the community center. So they trusted us from a health point of view, but not from working with the DWP. So we put the two together and we got a lot of interest. We're talking probably about 300. referrals within the space of eight or nine weeks. So we got the volume. So we knew that there was lots of demand in the local community. We knew that there was lots of issues that people were facing. We didn't realise the actual volume, but it was good to get that volume. But what we still needed was some basic understanding and training so that we're all on the same page and that we could deliver a better service. And that's where, fortunately for us through the ICB and with DWP, the allocated funding for training we all started to speak the same language at the same time. So after the meetings, we were on different sessions. But when we got together, we talked about work well and our operational processes. We started to use the terminology and the language and the techniques that we were beginning to practice through peak health coaching. So for me, that was really, really good because I wasn't just the guy who was talking all management rubbish that nobody understood. We all spoke the same language and we all understood what we were trying to do and why we were trying to do it. So it was really powerful from that point of view. and that was so refreshing. My view ⁓ I think I'm a good manager, I thought I was a good manager ⁓ and then the realization that I haven't listening ⁓ as well as I could have done. And this opportunity to set up the to say this is what the session is about, let me listen to you. what do you want to talk about was really, really good fun and refreshing. So my thinking then was, is there something that I look at as a pilot project to say, ⁓ let's look at Cygnus? and let's look at a standard sickness rate that we've got, which isn't horrendous. But is there something here that I'm missing, rather than just doing the traditional HR managerial contractual elements, the annual appraisals, the return to work interviews, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. Is there something that I can offer and I can learn from that will be beneficial to the team and to the organization? and helped me on my journey of discovery and learning. So it's then looking at applying the ⁓ coaching techniques to the staff, very simplistically. My first barrier was, ⁓ my goodness. How am I going to segregate between my hat as a line manager where I have to adhere and abide to all the rules and regulations, but I want to create a safe environment where I can just listen to staff and listen to their concerns and for them to feel safe and to be able to build up that trust where they feel as though they can talk about whatever they want to talk about. and not be fearful that it's going to impact them primarily on their work or their career, that I'm not going to view them any differently. so that was my concern is how do I segregate the two and how do I create that safe environment without compromising myself or ⁓ actually deconstructing any trust that I've got with the staff or making any words for them. So the contracting element was something that I thought a lot about how I was going to approach that and create that. And the best policy was just being open with the staff and saying, this is what I'm trying to do. This is why I'm trying to do it. You don't have to engage. We're going to do all the standard stuff anyway that you're used to. And have been used to for past 10, 20, 30 years, however long. But this is slightly different. And with consent. those that wanted to give it a go, was then using the techniques that I'd learned through the coaching that you provided, the training sessions, to focus on the staff and not targeting anybody, not looking at those that had high sickness rates or anything like that. It wasn't about that. It was about piloting. What can I learn? I can develop my techniques and see what happens. And the results really did surprise me. It was great to be able to just sit and listen to individuals and give them that space to discuss whatever they wanted to discuss and the realization that we're all human. 99.99 % of us come to work wanting to do a really, really, really good job. But there's other things that impact us. And that's invariably kind of the themes coming out of this were family. What's happening outside of work in terms of their border family or their close family, their own personal health, how they feel about themselves, about their health conditions that they've got. their fears, their worries, concerns. And at times it did feel as though the floodgates had opened, which was good. And then bringing it back to what would you like to focus on? It gave me a completely different view on the people around me. And then that brought me back to not making any judgments, not trying to step in with any ideas. So again, really... trying to just listen and affirmations, trying to understand their journey, where they come from and what they were really wanting to focus on and do.

Tim Williams: ⁓ There's so there's so much that you've talked there, Paul, ⁓ about. ⁓ I'm just ⁓ I think there's a there's a few things. One is ⁓ right at the beginning, it's that kind of sense that it's not about ⁓ services or doing things. ⁓ as well as someone else is actually joining in with what's already going well. So joining in with the kind of the community services are already there, rather than we're gonna come in and do something different when there's all of that kind of, I suppose there's organizational kind of wisdom and trust, I suppose is the other thing that you notice is so important, rather than here we are, we're gonna do something new, you're bound to be interested in this, but actually your experience was no, because the trust just wasn't there.

Paul Houseman: Yeah. And I think, again, reflecting back over my career now in the 39th year, the healthcare sector is fantastic, fantastic people, but it's also brutal. And an example I'll give you of that is every other organization that I've left, I've had an exit interview and they've been interested to understand why we're going, et cetera. et cetera. In the healthcare sector, it doesn't happen regularly. And I've seen over the years, doctors, really experienced doctors that have left their practice or left organizations. And they've literally just sent an email and said, I'm leaving. And a few people might just say, ⁓ sorry to see you go. or LinkedIn message or something like that. And then they've gone and you've lost all of that knowledge and all of that experience. And nobody's even asked the question, why are you going? Or can you say, there something else that you'd like to do within the healthcare setting? So if you've got that with your scene, your highly experienced, you know, some partners, GP partners that have been doing 20, 30 years, even longer, that are just... going and the system isn't saying why, what can we learn from you, what do you still want to do? So then you get down to the level of individuals within organisations going through nurses to administrators and you see the variances across primary care how people are managed and some are managed on performance managed in terms of the number of days off sick or the number of episodes. So I think it's the Bradford scoring system. And if you reach a certain threshold, then certain things can happen. And ultimately, you could lead to your dismissal from the organization. And straight away, I see then the individuals, there's that fear factor. And yes, they may have reduced sickness. but then their performance within the organization will be equalized out as they have that kind of mental contract that what's fair and isn't fair working in an organization. So yes, you'll have a return to work interview, you'll be managed from performance point of view, but the organization invariably will lose a lot more than it think it's gaining by reducing. a sickness level by a ⁓ certain percentage because the trust has gone. It's completely gone. And then people are working under pressure. ⁓ They feel as though they can't be off sick, which is no different than in Leicester. You look at a lot of the during COVID, a lot of the pockets of the spread of COVID in Leicester. were in the areas where there lots of garment factories, lower paid, lower skilled jobs, but people didn't dare not turn up for work because they would lose their jobs. But then they were sick and they were well. So there's a lot of, where policies and procedures drive behaviors that actually end up counterproductive to the organization. So it's. There's a lot of theory out there and there's a lot of good managers out there that do some really good things. But I think in the healthcare sector, there's a lot of focus on targets. There's a lot of focus on money driving things. It's ever-changing. It's on shifting sums. And people then burn out. There's a fear factor. And you get less productive as you get people burning out. and you end up not listening to the actual people that you rely on in the organisation. Counterproductive.

Tim Williams: Yeah, I think there's a lot that you're saying that is going to resonate with a lot of people listening in, to be honest, Paul. And again, you'll be maybe familiar with Patrick Lencioni's five dysfunctions for the team, but one of the dysfunctions, the base of the triangle is a lack of trust. And then the thing that sits above that is a kind of a fear of conflict. Because of course, if people don't trust each other, they don't want to say the things that feel uncomfortable to say. So they tread around on eggshells, not wanting to upset anyone. then they don't get to speak to their mind. then above that is a kind of a lack of commitment. And then above that is a lack of accountability. And then it's inattention to results. And people will sometimes say, oh, these people, they're just not committed. Do you know mean? Or, I can't hold them accountable. But of course not, because there's no trust. Therefore, they didn't say what they meant to say. Therefore, of course they're not committed. And it strikes me that what you've noticed in the kind of... with the Workwell pilot is actually aligning yourself with places where there already is trust. And also in the work that you're doing internally in the organization, actually trust was a really important part of that because actually people aren't gonna say what really matters, which is their family. If you don't create an environment where they kind of feel it's okay to say that, what do you think?

Paul Houseman: That's my learning, that's my realisation, there's a whole range of people that are looking after relatives. Their parents might be elderly, they're looking after them, their parents have got health conditions. in an environment where you have to work Monday to Friday at nine till five, a traditional type of view. But then you've got to be there to support somebody in effect as a carer and you've got to go to appointments invariably during the day, not in the evenings or weekends. You've got to take time off work, but you don't take time off work. You're going to be stressed. You're going to be tired. You're going to be burnt out even before you get to work. And if you're fearful that you can't have that open conversation without it reflecting on you and it limiting then your ⁓ career progression moving forward, you're trapped. And it's almost a downward spiral. So that is so, so common. ⁓ I was asked a question when I did the presentation recently, think was May, wasn't it, in Sheffield. at your event, how do you know if somebody is pulling the wool over your eyes? just using this as an opportunity to be work trying and get away with doing less. You know, as a manager with experience, you know who is genuine and who isn't. Before as a manager, I was just... an administrator within organizations. I was a member of the team. I wasn't viewed as a supervisor manager. And I know what we used to do. I know what we used to get away with and I know why we did it. And it was invariably to get that balance between we've delivered so much and we don't feel as though we've got much back. Again, it's not about the money, but you kind of even out that subliminal contract over time. So. ⁓ Yeah, it's been absolutely fascinating. Even the more difficult ones, where it's individuals own health conditions. we had an episode within the team and you'll remember our colleague who sadly passed away last September. And that individual... ⁓ came to me 12 months prior to that, just little over 12 months prior. And nobody really wanted to employ the individual because of all their health issues. And this is way before any of the coaching and the work well, but this individual had a really tough time, not just with their health, but other things that were going on. And I'd like that, I like their attitude. I liked how they wanted to work. They knew that they couldn't do certain hours. They needed flexibility, so we created that environment. And then one day I them come in looking very nervous that they wanted some time off, four weeks, to go home for the first time in many, years. And I said, well, if you don't do it now, when are you going to do it? Operationally, you're new into the organisation, we can do this, that's not a problem. And when you come back, I've got some great ideas on what we can develop you with. And they went off and they had that wonderful time. They came back, got them involved in work well, because of their attitude, their enthusiasm. It wasn't about, you know, their sickness record, it wasn't about... health conditions, it was about their attitude and about their empathy with dealing with other people. They'd had this experience that they could use as a huge force of positive to help other people. And then, yeah, that was working really, really well. And then unfortunately, turn of events and they suddenly passed away, which again, for all of us in the team was another learning for us that why are we here? And if we can't enjoy... the work that we do and where we're working and who we're working with and who we're working for, then do something else. Life is too short.

Tim Williams: Yeah, the power of that lived experience as well. Again, you've got people who maybe can't maybe do the roles like everyone else, but they have so much to offer from their lived experience, don't they? And again, it's a shame, as you were noticing, that lots of people who might leave their roles in the NHS, maybe for health reasons, would have so much to offer from lived experience, but aren't valued in that way.

Paul Houseman: And those are the types of things that are coming out of these conversations that I'm experiencing now with the staff. ⁓ Not naming names or giving away too much information, but somebody else within the team, really difficult personal circumstances ⁓ affected them from a mental health point of view. ⁓ And ⁓ they ⁓ wanted to be involved in of our clinics ⁓ and ⁓ we won. I manage a women's health hub within our PCM. So it's run by a specialty doctor. The clinics are actually on a Sunday, so the patients absolutely love it. And this individual within the team wanted to be involved, they wanted to move forward with the issues that they were facing and they thought it might be good experience. So... The shop were going trained, they got all the checks from an HR point of view, ticking all the boxes, etc. So we opened up the opportunity and they over the past few months now are a completely different person. So they're still doing the work that they were doing, but now they actually want to go into work on a Sunday. they enjoy it, they get up, they're enthused and they've got so many ideas, so much creativity that's going on to develop that service. The fact that they've got direct access to a doctor is a benefit for them because they're learning and they can ask questions and they can see what other patients are experiencing that are, you know, some really difficult circumstances that they're... they're involved with and they're seeing and they're having that experience. But it's been helping them to order and see what they're going through as well. it's really interesting some of the ideas that the staff have had that they've come up with that they want to try. And just by listening and if we pilot it, if it doesn't work, we do something different. And I think that was another thing for me is learning to accept that things fail. And and really the staff are picking up on that as well, which is really, really good. So lots of innovation is coming from this. Again, it's not about money, it's about people that are saying, well, actually, I'd like this opportunity. I think it would be good experience for these reasons. Can we try this? And if it doesn't work, we're all comfortable. things might fail. That's absolutely fine. Last weekend, there was the download music festival at Donington. It's the Rock Festival. So we got involved in distributing condoms for free from a sexual house point of view to staff, to administrators that work within the PCN. only been in the UK for a limited period of time, for about three years, never listened to any rock music, never had any interest before, wanted to get involved in sexual health, learning about it, distributing condoms, etc. And then they experienced over the course of the weekend listening to live music. And on the following Monday, they were completely buzzing, a completely different experience that they'd had. So it started off an idea they wanted to get involved with to develop their understanding. And they came away with a much richer experience. ⁓ Being in a field with 80, 90,000 other people ⁓ listening to Guns N' Roses was an education and really good fun. And it removed all the barriers. So, you know.

Tim Williams: Thank Yeah.

Paul Houseman: over that period of time, it wasn't this person's a doctor or this person's a manager. They really got into that we're all just one team and we're all humans and individuals and that's helped back in the workplace setting now. that trust is key, removing the barriers and trying things that build that trust environment. It takes time, but it's well worth it. I think I wish I'd done this years and years ago. And I know that in certain organizations you can't. You just cannot. You're in a hierarchy. You really are constrained by policies and protocols. So there's only limited things that you can do. But don't, if you treat others as you wish to be treated yourself, eventually you will find a way of dealing with that. And if you can't get on a... a coaching course with peak health paid by your employer, it's worth investing in yourself to get that experience because it will set you on a journey that you will not regret.

Tim Williams: ⁓ thanks for that. ⁓ Yeah, thanks for that. Thanks for the recommendation, Paul. Yeah, I mean, there's so, again, there's so much there. And I suppose what I, what's resonating is, because I know from the, Charlie Mayfield report about getting Britain working, it was about re-humanizing the workplace. And all the things you've talked about, the of the Bradford scale, the Connor, the policies, the procedures, and all of those kind of, some of the tick boxy kind of stuff that we get stuck in. It's almost like this is the antidote to that, is actually building the trust and understanding of your team and your workforce is probably the most important thing.

Paul Houseman: And you look over the years all the different initiatives that come through from a HR point of view around staff recognition schemes. you know, recognizing employee of the month or maybe a voucher scheme or recognizing birthdays, maybe half a day or a day off for shopping at Christmas or maybe a tea meal every 12 months or six months or whatever it is. So there's lots of things that are done for the right reasons for the team and to recognise people. But when you operate those there's some really, really good schemes and ⁓ settings where that is really, really beneficial. But there are some downsides to that as well. From a cost point of view, when there's cost pressures, that goes immediately. The team nights are stopped paid for, or they might pay for the food, not the drinks, et cetera, et cetera. That will go immediately. The staff recognition can create competition in a bad way within the team and can upset the apple cart. And others can feel left out as well. So you're not really getting to the nuts and bolts of the... the individual and their journey ⁓ and their individual needs. So we talk a about ⁓ tailoring healthcare to the ⁓ and ⁓ packaging that for each individual is

Tim Williams: So in terms of your journey, you've seen a benefit for your team in terms of what has been quite dramatic. was a drastic change was in their sickness absence, but it sounds like it was much more than that. wasn't just that. There was a whole lot of other things. So just speak to that just briefly in terms of what else was good for your team. And also what's your hopes for the future, for the work well and I suppose for your team as well.

Paul Houseman: Yeah, I think the broader benefits for the team is bringing their ideas and the richness of their ideas into the workplace. that's examples around, you know, we all do the display screen equipment check on an annual basis, is the chair, the screen at the right height, et cetera, et cetera. But this was actually about giving personal budgets to individuals to say, Right, OK, it isn't just a tick box exercise. This is their idea, it's my idea, it's their idea. From a compliance point of view, you tick the box, you've done the activity, you've reviewed it, assessed it, etc. So this led to then adjustable desks. A couple of the staff got adjustable desks and so they stand up and it's helping them with their posture. It's easing certain grumbles and pains that they've got. And the view is, well, if it works, we'll try it, we'll pilot it. If it doesn't, then somebody will benefit from these. So it's not going to be wasted or it's going to be lost. The second example would be when menopause. How many conversations over the years in healthcare as a manager have I had that have been sorted by staff around menopause? None. How many have I had in the past six months? Lots. And we've got a menopause clinic. We've got a women's health hub. So if we can't offer the service to our own staff, as well as our patients, and offer that support and service. so their ideas are, I want to talk about menopause. I want to talk about the impact that it's having. And is there any possibility that I can go and speak to the doctors leading on this service? Well, yeah. Fantastic. So they get supported. They've got that continuity and it builds again, it's that other layer of trust that's building within the team. So there's some really good examples of how it's affecting positively broader on the team, which is then. Helping them with the conversations with the patients and the clients. So they're leading to richer conversations. It's leading to better signposting and understanding of what can be done. So if they're doing it and they're overcoming these barriers, they're then enthused using these techniques to support the patients from a work well point of view. So moving forwards, this is a beginning of the journey. We've got... one staff member who you remember from the training. They've just, they're on the way out to Switzerland. So they're going to ⁓ one of the conferences in Switzerland on health and wellbeing. So there was one in London and one in Switzerland and we've sent them out to Switzerland. So they're going to be out there for a few days at a European conference on health and wellbeing. And they want to do a presentation when they come back. It's the first time they've traveled. It's the first time they've had any opportunity like this. And it was an idea they had and happy to support them and develop them. They'll come back with a completely different view on... what are issues and concerns and what they need to focus on, having spoken to lots of people that are attending in Switzerland. And we want to know what they saw, what they visited, what they ate, and what they did in the downtime as well. So if we give people the opportunity and keep pushing with that, then I think it will move past. any sickness rates, it's going to be about innovation and creativity. It's going to be, ⁓ you know, what can they do for the patients because they've got a broader experience and richer experience in life. They've not just sat in the health centre in Valgrove and Spinney Hill for five years. They've actually been trained. They've got a practitioner level one certificate. They're using it. And off the back of that, they've got out to a conference in Switzerland to have those discussions and conversations. with people that are outside of their normal peer group and contact. And the fact that they don't like flying, they said, don't like flying, really nervous about it, but if this is the first of many, then I'm sure I'll get over flying. So they even took that as a positive. So really excited for them. So that's one of the team has the opportunity and they're actually out in Switzerland now, which... ⁓ If you'd asked them 12 months ago, would they be trained having this opportunity, going on a conference, utilizing that opportunity and those skills, never in a million years? So it just shows what you could do. And the future is really then exciting, isn't it?

Tim Williams: Yeah, ⁓ my goodness, I've learned so much and it's been really good to listen to you. mean, one of the, well, so much I've learned. So certainly about the kind of the importance of trust has been re-emphasized for me and listening being a really important part of that. And I suppose that building of the team and realizing their potential. And I suppose the other thing is that the importance of actually looking after your team as being a priority. Because lots of people don't quite get that right. It's always like all about the patients, not about the team. ⁓ you know, or there may be kind of maybe it's all about the team and nothing about the patient. But actually, if we don't make it about both, then we're missing a trick, as you kind of emphasise there with your colleague who are having new experiences. But then inevitably going to be able to kind of share that back with the people they're working with. ⁓

Paul Houseman: absolutely. what ideas can people come up with? How can they develop? What opportunities can they get? Not just... you know, day off for shopping at Christmas, but about longer term stability, sustainability for their careers and their future. Where do they want to be in 12 months, 18 months, two years, five years time? We can start now. And, you know, for those that other people that will have been on the course where they didn't think that they could possibly do anything like this, they've done it and they're flying. And it's the beginning of the journey for them. ⁓ And they ⁓ The team of people then are very, very careful who comes into the team. It's almost self-regulating. So it's not just a manager saying, I've interviewed and this is the sort of person that's coming in new into the team. The last person that we recruited, they did the recruitment. The team did the recruitment. I said, well, this is all the legalese HR stuff, but who do you want to work with? Who do you want to sit next to? What sort of person? Do you want them the same as you or different? And they pick somebody that is complimenting them in a different way with different skills. So even in terms of recruitment, so from a managerial point of view, ticked all the boxes, we've gone through it. They've chosen them. They've done the interviewing. They've brought them in and they're working with them. So there's that commitment, inbuilt commitment within the team to self-regulate. And another benefit is holidays is not an issue. There's no argument over holidays. They sort it out amongst themselves. Freeze me up from having to do holiday, Rotas. When the team take that accountability and responsibility, well, they take the responsibility. Ultimately, they are of the accountability. So if we had operational gaps, there's nobody around. Then yeah, it would be bored. Why haven't we got covered? but the team do it themselves.

Tim Williams: It's inspirational. I'm sure there'll be people listening and thinking, hang on, that's the worst part of my year is sorting out holidays. But actually, actually, if you do things in a different way and you involve people and they feel empowered to kind of speak up, share ideas, they're valued, it makes such a difference, doesn't it? And of course, it's obvious it will make a difference, but it's so good to hear the tangible stories there, Paul, that you've shared. I'm conscious that we've been speaking now for a while. I said, you know, half an hour, but. I couldn't kind of cut you off anymore because it was so useful to hear what you had to say.

Paul Houseman: Once I get going, yeah, sorry, I've got this tendency to over-wrap up, but no, thank you for the opportunity. It was good.

Tim Williams: No, it's great. It's great. Probably have to get you back for another one, Paul, because I'd love to hear. So obviously the Workwell pilots, mean, they're kind of they're being rolled out now. So there'll be more to say about that, won't there? So maybe we can we can book a time, you know, six, 12 months down the line, just to kind of see where you're up to, because I'm sure a whole lot would have happened in the Workwell space, but I'm sure a lot will have happened in your team space as well as part of the PCN. So thank you.

Paul Houseman: Hopefully so.

Tim Williams: Thank you for spending the time and maybe next time we'll have a banjo intro. I don't know, maybe. Let's see. Let's see how you go.

Paul Houseman: I can always mute as practice, so any practice is welcome. And you can always put it on mute.

Tim Williams: Right. Exactly. Or, or edit it out, altogether. We could do that.

Paul Houseman: Absolutely, even better, even better. Save everybody. Brilliant. Thank you ever so much, Tim.

Tim Williams: Yeah, nice to to you. Cheers, ⁓ Bye.