Ollie: Well, hello folks, welcome back. ⁓ It's another interview today and I'm really glad to be joined by Joanne Smith. Joanne contacted us after listening to the MindBody episode. And in talking to it, sounds like she has a really interesting personal story, but also she's a healthcare professional. She's a trained nurse and a health visitor and has subsequently been on her own journey to apply health coaching to the MindBody ⁓ field and delivers her own support now. So, As many of you know, in Health Coaching and Beyond, we mix up conversations between the two of us, churning over hot topics, latest news and emerging ideas, but also bringing you conversations with thought leaders and people we admire in the field of health coaching and beyond. People we hope will help you think well and spark interesting ideas for yourself. This week I interviewed Joanne Lee Smith. She's a coach with a background in nursing and health visiting, but she also has a fascinating story of recovering from persistent pain herself. Sounds like a great person to illustrate following on from that episode. So Joanne, welcome. She's an ultra runner who interestingly could differentiate pain in her body from running long distances from her chronic pain. Initially she used running to block out the pain, but eventually as she discovered new mind-body techniques, she's been able to fully recover from her chronic pain. It's a privilege to be able to share this real life story to back up the theory we talk about in the field of pain and mind-body medicine. Really hope you enjoy it.

Joanne Smith: Thank you for the invite and accepting my offer to come here today. It's a privilege. Yeah, more than happy to share my journey. It's a long one. I'll pre-warn you.

Ollie: That's great. Well, we'll get to that, but it fascinated me that you call yourself now a chronic pain and symptoms recovery nurse coach. So that's a great title.

Joanne Smith: Yeah, yeah, finally, finally I've got some way to describe on what I do because for a lot of years I just couldn't quite articulate it and I was calling myself a, well I was saying I was a coach for trail runners. Yeah, there was all kinds of titles that I put out there but I finally found what works. And the reason why it took me a while to get to this is because when I first started coaching, back in 2018, there was absolutely no way in a million years I could have ever thought about working with people with chronic pain and chronic symptoms to achieve in recovery because there was no way in this world that I believed that was possible for myself. So I actually began coaching people to do what I did to deal with symptoms, to achieve ultra marathons, marathons despite, you know, to do the best they possibly could with. ⁓ having health issues and injuries. So I just didn't know it was possible. So that's why in the beginning I didn't do this. then ⁓ great outcome, but when I realized what was possible and I saw it for myself and achieved recovery from a massive amount of chronic issues, I knew I could do that for others.

Ollie: you've just hit the nail on the head, And it's been definitely discovery for myself and Tim as well. We worked in pain clinics as doctors and for so long, weren't we? We were saying, it's a long-term condition. You have to learn to accept it. ⁓ Still the case to some degree, but it was about ⁓ living with it and ⁓ managing pain and living with pain. And I think you're right. The optimism has shifted, isn't it? We've discovered new techniques that make us much more hopeful about...

Joanne Smith: Mm-hmm.

Ollie: you know, sometimes complete recovery, but certainly partial recovery. So I'm with you on that. ⁓ Brilliant.

Joanne Smith: Yeah, it's brilliant to be in a conversation ⁓ with another, with a doctor who actually understands this stuff ⁓

Ollie: Well, it's spreading. think it is spreading. You know, we're part of a growing group of healthcare professionals, doctors, hospital consultants, GPs, ⁓ know, who are discovering the benefits of this. And it really is a discovery as much as anything, isn't it? And I'd love to ⁓ double back, Joanne, because you've been on your own journey of discovery, haven't you? And I think your story just is interesting because it probably mirrors quite a common sort of...

Joanne Smith: Yeah.

Ollie: that a lot of people have been on. So take us back Joanne, tell us about your pain journey and when it all started.

Joanne Smith: I will, yes. When it really, really started, it takes us way back to 2008. had a one year old child. I'd gone back from maternity leave and I all super excited because I'd gone back to university to become a health visitor. I'm driving to work. I just dropped my son off at nursery and I end up in a car accident where I get shunted from like the van behind me just drove into me at high speed I got taken to hospital ⁓ and I got given everything's fine, all good, given the whiplash leaflet and I was like, I was happy I ⁓ was on my way, I thought yeah accept I'm fine I've come everything's okay ⁓ my ear had popped and I couldn't hear out of this side for quite a while that everything I was like, okay, I. ⁓ ⁓ no, ⁓ just. ⁓

Ollie: So you didn't have a lot of initial pain then to start off.

Joanne Smith: I was fine, like, initially when it first happened, was just, I knew I'd hit my head, but I came around and everything was fine. I was worried about my hearing. but then within ⁓ the day later the soreness kicked in with the neck but what happened after that was just the more that time went on, the pain never left. And I was ⁓ back studying for the full year plus working plus one year old child. And so I did like everything. I did all the physio. I spent three years just like stretching, ⁓ physio, doing all the things until I finally thought this is not working, I'm going back to the doctors. And I can't remember at the exact point when they did refer me to chronic pain service. I think it was after about, I think it was after I'd had my second child when I really realized that I'm just really not improving. And then I was like, well, maybe it's because I'm breastfeeding, maybe it's because I'm constantly, you know, I just always thought of...

Ollie: Something.

Joanne Smith: It's because of this, it's because of that, it's because of my lifestyle. But it was so, so difficult that like, was, you just, it was continuous, it was constant. So I did end up in the chronic pain service for probably way over 10 years, And I believed everything and I worked, I do anything. If they said to me, do 10 of ⁓ or get strong, do this and that, I'll get onto how determined I am with the physical. ⁓ strength and doing things. So I did everything the way that I was advised. I didn't have any obvious fears, but it wasn't just the neck pain that I had. As time went on, I developed lower pain in my lower left back as well, It just happened ⁓ with no explanation. And it became the left leg, like bottom of the leg as well, just constant pain in that leg, ⁓ aching, ⁓ aching, aching. ⁓

Ollie: tell us what happened then. So you were in this ⁓ terribly stuck ⁓ Sounds like you were into sort of that phase of I've got to live with it. And you said you were, you were a runner. Tell us a bit about that. You discovered running didn't you?

Joanne Smith: Yeah. I'd been running already for five years, because I'd found running as a really amazing thing that was my only respite. But the only problem with that is when I found something where I finally thought, oh, I'm not actually in a lot of height and...

Ollie: So it was a respite for pain for you, even though you were living with the pain, it was one of the tools you found that helped settle it a bit, but didn't take it away, right?

Joanne Smith: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It didn't take it away, but it was, it was more manageable when I was running, when I was moving, when I was running, it was more manageable.

Ollie: Yeah, interesting.

Joanne Smith: was at a point where was like, well, this is just how it is. I have to just But on day one of my first ever, it was like a five day intensive coaching training ⁓ in the NHS where I worked. There were a group of psychiatrists, psychologists, some nurses, and we'd all been from different services. to train, to become coaches so that we could kind of like help the team leaders and help leadership. so it was such a great opportunity to do this training. I was really excited about doing it.

Ollie: that was leadership, team leadership and personal growth training.

Joanne Smith: Yeah, it was solution focused coaching training. And on day two of this training, I just had a massive insight during one of the exercises that we were doing. And it was literally a helpful and hindering exercise where we'd just literally split into four areas. And I was, I was working on having constant pain and I asked myself, what are my thoughts about this? And then the first question was, what questions are you asking yourself? Are they helpful or hindering? And what statements are you saying to yourself? Are they helpful or hindering? It seems so simple, but I literally ticked hindering for every box. And in that moment, I was just like, wow, this is so simple. It's just my thinking. I just had this moment of thinking, thinking. my thinking's not helping and it seems really silly but what happened after that is quite incredible because the power of that insight I looked around the room and everyone else just looked a bit like yeah whatever they didn't didn't seem so excited I was just like right and I was just like ⁓

Ollie: I was making my spine tingle this year, I can see you talking about it. it's so often, isn't it, there's a penny drop moment for somebody somewhere and you don't know when it's going to come or what's going to trigger it. And but when it happens, please carry on.

Joanne Smith: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, so what happened was just so, it was just an incredible day because I literally drove home from that training with a really, I just felt like I was smiling. I was like, I'm aware that my thinking and I just, this is really strange. I don't know how it happened, but I just knew that it didn't matter whether I was in pain or not. didn't matter because it's my thinking. It means I can do anything that I want to do. this was in Easter 2018. And ⁓ in the September, ⁓ yeah, that's when I did my first ⁓ marathon that year. ⁓ yeah, yeah. Yeah, so I had, continue to have.

Ollie: But still with all your pains, your neck pain, your leg pain, your face pain, your ear pain, yeah.

Joanne Smith: all of that, all of those symptoms and issues, all those chronic symptoms and things, like I was already hooked on coaching I already knew like the power of how amazing that like it could help you feel and help you to achieve so much more than you believe were possible, deep down ⁓ I was chasing a recovery. Deep down, I was just like, maybe this is how I'm gonna recover. I'm just gonna run ultra marathons and then eventually I'll better. ⁓ But then I thought, well, if that doesn't happen, at least I'm gonna inspire other people ⁓ who have been told that you've got like... ⁓ chronic issues and that you've got this forever. And I was like, well, if I can do it with these and I knew how difficult living with those symptoms are, then I can inspire other people to at least do things. And so I signed up for what they call the Endure 24, which made sense because it's local, it's in Leeds, you can do five mile laps. And if you do every hour, you do a hundred miles. But here's the, so this is when this one happened, 2023. That's when I did my first 100 miles. And I got the third place trophy for that one, which was a surprise to me because...

Ollie: Amazing. can't imagine there was that many people managing to do 100 miles, but that's unbelievable. So you're still living with chronic pain. You're still, and after you've done that, did it flare up your symptoms? How did you manage your symptoms?

Joanne Smith: Yeah, that's good. Yeah. Well, this is how it all came about, like me thinking, well, it doesn't make sense. The symptoms were worse. When I wasn't doing that, I actually found it easier to go and do. This is the crazy part. Give me the pain from running a hundred mile ultra marathon any day because that pain, it's gonna go. It's not chronic. Yeah, it's so different.

Ollie: and you can understand it, almost expect it,

Joanne Smith: Like I can cope with that, but then I can't even just sit and watch a film with my husband and children. Or I can't just go to sleep at night and relax and chill out. The pain was so much more harder. The chronic pain is so much higher level than pushing myself. So I'm like, well, it

Ollie: Mmm. So if I got this right, John, you were having, you were doing a hundred mile event, you were getting the sort of muscular pains, the aches and pains you'd expect from that, but then you also had your chronic pains in your neck and your leg and your back that sort of like were there in the background and almost sort of flared up when you'd not, when you weren't running and when you'd got over the kind of the exertional pain. They never left, amazing.

Joanne Smith: Yeah. Yeah. They never left. So like the normal, normal muscle fatigue that you get from, you know, increasing activity, doing long distance running, ⁓ it's, I just knew that it's different. There's something like that, that comes and goes and yeah, it's uncomfortable at the time. And yet it kind of does hurt pushing your body to that extent, but it's not harmful. It's not chronic. And then that would come and go, but I couldn't get rid of the other. So I thought this doesn't make sense. Something doesn't make sense. So I finally gave up really and went back to the doctors 2023, I did get a diagnosis for fibromyalgia. So when I got that diagnosis, there was still something inside of me that was like, I'm not sure. Like must be a cure. So I went back to the doctors and I was like, right, they've diagnosed me with fibro in my algebra. This is after I'd found out about Dr. Sarno and TMS. Yeah, ⁓ Tension, it tested me now. ⁓ Tension myositis syndrome or tension myoneural syndrome. ⁓

Ollie: And remind us what TMS is as well from Dr. Sanu. Yes, and we might come back to Dotsana because he's one of the original, I guess, catalysts of thinking a bit differently, isn't he? much, much as, but he was one of the original sort of thinkers in this space, wasn't he?

Joanne Smith: Yeah, yeah, ⁓ I somehow ⁓ ended up doing these three principles. coaching, practitioner training, which I love. It's a beautiful understanding in psychology about thought, consciousness and mind. They're the three principles. And it made me realize what happened in 2018 when I had this big moment about thought and thinking. Anyway, I've ended up following this journey to be coming to learning about the three principles because it was helping me just in general with feeling really empowered and seeing. seeing experience comes from the inside out and not the outside world in. So like other people, environments, jobs, like it's a really lovely understanding that helped me to just be like, I felt really good because I'm the one that creates my experience. It's all my thinking. It's quite an extreme approach because it really is based around the one principle of thought. But I really liked it. I there was something about it that kept Luring me back in I decided that I was gonna get the other book, the other Dr. Sarno book and that I was ⁓ gonna really go for it and just listen I did what he said in the book, because I didn't really know any different. And he said about, ⁓ like really like writing down, doing the journaling thing. And I thought, okay, what's to lose? So I just decided that. Each time when the pain was building up and up and up, instead of going and grabbing some pain relief, I was just going to scribble about all the things that I might be annoyed at, angry at, whatever came up. within even like the first few days ⁓ I saw the evidence pretty quickly that it was possible for pain to move down it didn't disappear instantly but I could physically experience the difference just doing scribbling ⁓ and ⁓

Ollie: And the scribbling, so I've got it right, the scribbling was effectively tuning yourself into your emotions. And you say you realized something from looking at that. What was it that happened?

Joanne Smith: Yeah, must have been. Well, I realised that I felt a reduction in back pain. Like, during the process of after I'd finished doing the writing for like 10, 15 minutes, I felt it come down.

Ollie: Okay, so just by doing the journaling, it had an effect.

Joanne Smith: Yeah, and I was absolutely amazed and it's quite incredible really by the end of that week, no ⁓ more medication. after all those years, it were incredible the amount of times that I tried to come off pain relief and never achieved it.

Ollie: you'd got new hope, you were curious, ⁓ you'd seen a reduction in pain just by the journaling. Did you do anything else as well or did you just keep going with the journaling? Is that all you did?

Joanne Smith: And so I put everything away out of Anything that looked like, ⁓ my God, this girl's got back pain, this girl's got fibromyalgia, anything that, any reminder that I got rid of my special, like I had a certain foot stool and a chair and I just got rid of everything ⁓ like drew attention. And I made the decision that I wasn't going to talk about it with anyone ever again. I wasn't going to mention it. I wasn't going to complain about being in pain. I literally made the decision. It was quite extreme approach because I think Dr. Sanna wasn't quite extreme and me being me anyway, it kind of suited me. My daughter... My daughter actually, probably about a month later, she goes, mum, I've just noticed what happened to you. You've not mentioned your bath.

Ollie: Yes, I'm getting that feeling, Joanne, that when you do things, you don't do it by halves.

Joanne Smith: for a long time and I went, ⁓ thanks for noticing, It's been really hard. Like it was really hard because I did mention it. I did talk about it with people that were willing to listen. I was really ⁓

Ollie: So you're, what you, I've heard you've seen you written before. It's almost like you transferred your focus away from your body and all the tools and all the things, the paraphernalia you're using to address body pain and you moved it to mind techniques instead. ⁓ And being the person you are, you went full on with that. ⁓ You all in then. ⁓

Joanne Smith: Yeah, yeah, yeah, but I mean, it was a bit, a little bit to my detriment. So I have like softened with that, like as the time's gone on, because I realised like with the back, it wasn't gonna be a good approach. Like there are occasions when you do need to do some self-compassion and you do need to move, but with a mixture of like exposure to the things that I were avoiding. which I'd never saw as fear. just thought it was smart, like not sitting down because why would you sit down when you know you're going to be in a load of trouble? So it was like a mixture of lots of different pieces of information and from watching other people's success stories and like spending a lot of time like learning, like using the curable app, being a client in Dan Buglio's coaching group. There's a massive mixture of other things that came on the back of it. But in the beginning I had this like amazing like wow there's something in this so I was really driven to continue with the approach I didn't have like an instantaneous recovery it's really gradual

Ollie: But that's so interesting. And I'm fascinated by the fact, perhaps, as you say, the person you are, that when you discovered something new, when you started to get some evidence this was working in a way that not much else had. You went all in, but actually what you've realised is that there's a sort of happy medium. that if you, you know, doing a bit of body work, doing some mind work, it's, now your practise is a mixture of

Joanne Smith: Yeah.

Ollie: both. Would I be right in saying that?

Joanne Smith: And you mean like for me personally what I do to...

Ollie: Well, I suppose you have moved on to being a support for other people, haven't you? So how do you see that mind-body balance then?

Joanne Smith: Yes, I think for me it's more about the intention behind the movement. for me, I realised that I needed to move less weirdly, which is good news because it's ⁓ nice to be able to actually enjoy sitting down. and watching a family movie or doing things with my family again. And I wasn't doing any of that at all. But it was more about the intention behind it all and the expectations and the knowing that I don't need to be moving. because I'd done that for so long that... there was a lot of like expectations without realizing like they call it the predictive coding like expectation that if I sit down this is gonna happen and I've had to do a lot of like like kind of imagining myself sitting down without that happening and then doing that just for like even a couple of minutes to begin with and then bit by bit sitting down for longer and longer. But yeah, your question about the approaches and like movement and the balance between medications and all the other stuff is that yeah, I have realized that the approach of like, maybe the energy that I was going at it with of there is no way that I can ⁓ massage my body if it feels the need in that moment to. It's okay to do that, like, it's not gonna mess with the recovery because I think that what really delayed the re- like my progress for quite a long while was that I was then the fear-based attached to the worry that if I do take some paracetamol, I'm gonna reverse all of that, you know, what's happened is again prolonging the symptom and the brain that's perceiving that as dangerous. There's so many elements, there's not just- one element to it.

Ollie: So that, and you called that learning yourself compassion bit. I really want to dial down on that. So what was it that led you to that discovery? It sounds to me like you're someone that's discovered things sort of by trial and error. And like you say, you reflect back sometimes you went over the top in one direction or the other. What was it that led you to the importance of self-compassion?

Joanne Smith: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, when I realised how hard I am on myself, how critical I am, how no matter what I've achieved, it's not enough, it's not good enough. Just like little bit by bit when I've started to watch a lot of the other success stories, how there's this common theme of self-kindness, self-compassion, gentle approach, because ⁓ I realised that my approach has just been like not... It's been the complete opposite.

Ollie: where do you start then if you're working with someone, so now you are working as a mind, body, what you called yourself a chronic pain and symptom recovery nurse coach. So ⁓ you're faced with someone who's had a long of long standing pain or unusual symptoms. Where do you start with people?

Joanne Smith: Yeah. I follow Dr. Schubiner's approach and I'm part of ⁓ the work with Symptomatic Me and Dr. Clark. And I'm in the, ⁓ the groups with them, ⁓ the clinical groups where we get like, it's really get extra supervision and can take cases and discuss them in the meetings. But for me, I start with the screening. ⁓ rule out the physical once the physical's been ruled out and we know that medically everything's been checked we're then ruling in ⁓ ruling in mind body as a explanation and helping the client going through each individual symptoms to help them to see it like for themselves to help them to make that decision because that is a big part of the process is like knowing for yourself that like is this what's happening for me? Because if I'd not done that, I'd still be where I used to be. Like if I'd not made that big decision that yes, I'm all in here, that I'm going to go with this approach and I'd have kept going back to the doctor, then I'm not sure I would have had the results that I got. Because it was kind of part of how it all happened. So I help people to make it, well, help them to make a decision. If they don't have 100 % belief, that's fine. because we also have sometimes there are occasions where symptoms are a legitimate physical. But all the work that I've done along with Cureable as well has really helped me to help people with a mixture of the two as well. ⁓

Ollie: That's a really interesting thing actually, isn't it? Because, you know, I found that it's important, isn't it? That people accept that there's a possible sort of, you know, emotional or mind orientated cause their symptoms as opposed to sort of tissue damage or physical damage. And it's great, as you say, to have some evidence and to make people curious. I mean, for you, like you say, you noticed a week of writing things down, you know, writing your emotions down. actually made a difference to your pain. So that's starting to make you curious and interested. But then there's also a worry, isn't it, that we're going to write off everything that's in your mind. And so how do you yourself or how do you and others help people judge whether their symptoms are more driven by their thought process and emotions or whether they're things they need to look out for in their body?

Joanne Smith: a big part of it is having the conversation with them and getting them to be more curious. Because just from having that conversation and maybe just the way that we'll ask a question about how do we explain that. ⁓ I'll give an example. So one of ⁓ the guys had the knee issue, he could barely walk without limping. But then there was this one occasion where he jumped out of his bath. He had an ice bath, you know, those bit of a trendy in the garden things. And he had his big moment when he jumped out of that and ran inside and ran upstairs. And he had his big moment of how did I do that? I can barely walk without limping.

Ollie: And what caused him to do that? Was he rushing for something?

Joanne Smith: And ⁓ he was just rushing to go inside and get dry. And he realized that his knee in that moment was not an issue. ⁓ And...

Ollie: So something happens that gives you evidence that it can't all just be down to the body. Yeah.

Joanne Smith: Yeah, yeah, so you got that bit of curiosity. So I think really it's just about helping people to, ⁓ like, just maybe be more curious and observant about what's happening. Because if they just have that little bit of evidence, like for me, it would have been so simple if someone would have said, well, ⁓ maybe a simple question like... towards the like figuring out like I thought there was something structurally wrong with my neck or that was causing the pain, but yet how is your body able to run that far without pain, but yet you can't just rest.

Ollie: had well over 10 years of living with these chronic symptoms, even longer. Yeah, you were to a 2008, you said, didn't you? 17 years. And does it make you cross when you look back now and think, you maybe, like you say, you work with people in the first six, 12 months of chronic symptoms and you know, can, you know, tune them into a different way of understanding it and it's really effective. Well, how do you look back on it now?

Joanne Smith: Even longer, Like 17 years, yeah. Yeah, would have loved to know about this stuff at the beginning. And we've not even had a chance to explore, like, when I look back at the obvious reasons why I developed it in the first place. So, for example, when I look back, I lost two very close family members, my nana and my grandad, in that same year running up to having the car crash. So there was other things in life. ⁓ when you learn about this stuff that put me in the ideal situation to develop chronic pain that were nothing to do with the accident and I look back at childhood and symptoms that I had throughout my upbringing and childhood that also when I do the timeline looking back I think yeah it all makes sense now ⁓

Ollie: So some people would say, we all have stressful things happening all the time. And that, you can look back and go, well, it must have been related to that, must have been related to that. How do you tie significant events to your pain? What makes you tie them together?

Joanne Smith: Mm-hmm. the time when I had the car crash, I think that I developed the chronic pain to protect me from all the other stuff that had happened. I ⁓ wasn't the kind of person that did feel emotions. ⁓ I genuinely, when I think back about it, I probably did have a lot of emotions that I just buried and ignored, like from things happening and just like carried on. I struggled to put a label on an emotion in the beginning. And that was the piece I think that was missing for me as the time went on when I started to realize, why am I not fully recovered? I'm still not there with the self-compassion and maybe my brain didn't see feeling emotion as safe because I've never really done that before. I'd like ignored it. I didn't cry. I was the kind of person that got married, gave birth to children, saw them in the first nativities, did all these amazing things and all the other mums are there with the tissues and the tears flowing. And I was like, I know feeling that. So that were a big part too.

Ollie: Mm. So how are you with that now then Joanna? Would you say you experience emotions differently now that you've sort of, tell me how it's changed for you then.

Joanne Smith: Yeah. So I actually take note of it now. So say for example, like I'm having a load of back pain. I'll actually just stop and be like, how am I feeling right now? And I actually do some the ⁓ somatic tracking. I kind of do own version of it where I'll close my eyes and then I'll imagine. a part of me that feels good and then I'll imagine the pain and then I'll get curious and I'll like zoom on in there and explore it and then think what is it telling me? What am I actually feeling? Like what is this wanting to share? And then I might be like I'm actually really feeling quite disappointed today. I'm really feeling quite disappointed because I believe that I should have achieved this at the minute and it didn't work out that way. And then I'll go back to the good bit and I'll just say to my brain, ⁓ well, there you go. You've gone in there. You've like felt that. Well done you, nothing bad happened. And I've been training myself that it's safe to feel anger, rage, guilt. You're not a bad human being. And I've been doing a lot on that. And I've been even having it. experience in the moment where I'm like, wow, that changed that back pain shifted during that visualization or somatic tracking, or it could be a somatic movement session. struggling. ⁓

Ollie: and you're now teaching people and supporting other people in that context. And ⁓ do you find it always works, Joanne? Do find, I mean, you you mentioned to me that having those injections in your neck, you look back now and you think, well, maybe it was just placebo. How do you look at this, ⁓ you know, alongside that? Do you think this just be a really big placebo ⁓ or is there something about this you think's

Joanne Smith: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. ⁓ yeah, I definitely never had that concern about this being a placebo. This has just felt so real and so amazing, all along it's really difficult, it's tough. if my other, if my remaining back pain could shift the way that those other symptoms did, that's amazing. But I know it's possible now because if they can, then this can too. It's just about not caring when, but but yeah like when you said about does it does it always work not one person that has not benefited ⁓ in one way shape or form from knowing about this stuff that i've been involved with ⁓ even whether that's on even just understanding about thinking ⁓ it's ⁓ something I want to be involved with forever and ever and ever now. ⁓

Ollie: Well, it's wonderful to hear your passion for it, John. And, you know, I suppose we, I'm very interested in this as well as a doctor. And I've had my own personal experience, I think that most of us have to some degree, but I'm particularly interested to see that transition from, you know, us thinking people just had to live with symptoms, you know, whether it was pain or fatigue, or like you say, unusual things like watering eyes and all sorts of things. And, you know, I am cautious as a doctor that we're not just writing things off as...

Joanne Smith: Mm.

Ollie: all in your mind or you know I'm cautious to look out for illnesses and diseases and medical problems but I am really curious as to the additional value this adds and that we've suddenly got a whole lot of it's like we've expanded our toolkit and and we've got both sides of the coin you know we had the physical side we had the medical side and now we've got much more intelligence around how you do think about the influence of emotions and mood and mind

Joanne Smith: You have to.

Ollie: Beyond just mental health and mental illness and the therapies we had, this is around how you apply this to a holistic approach to your body. It's definitely given us a lot more. It's fascinating, isn't it, that we've suddenly got a whole load more things we can do that we didn't have before.

Joanne Smith: Yeah, it's amazing. It really is. And I've only covered a snapshot of. Yeah. ⁓

Ollie: We might have to get you back Joanne to talk a bit more and see if that back pain has just ebbed away. Like you say, you've got less skin in the game for it.

Joanne Smith: Yeah, it will, because I have times now where I'm able to sip him free and I never had that before. I never had that in a lot of years. And so even those occasions where that's happening is enough evidence to know that if that's possible for those moments, then it's possible every time.

Ollie: Yes. so if you were, let's finish this with one question, Joanne. If you were to go back now to yourself in 2008, let's say you're six months down the line of having had this neck pain, you're taking a lot of medication, you're not sure what's going on.

Joanne Smith: Yeah.

Ollie: What would you say to yourself and how would you start off a different sort of pathway?

Joanne Smith: to somebody about how you feel, I guess. Don't stop pushing yourself so harshly. Stop not believing you're good enough, like you are good enough and you don't need to be an internal sergeant major to get well. Feel your emotions, if only someone would have told me that one. ⁓

Ollie: How interesting isn't it to just to think that that actually that could be having an effect and that, you know, for sure, after a neck injury from a car crash, you might expect a couple of weeks of stiffness and soreness, but you wouldn't expect it to go on for three, four, five, six months, 17 years, let's say, you know, and that when it starts to get there, maybe we should be curious about what else is going on. And it's so interesting that you start to tune into the how you.

Joanne Smith: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Ollie: to yourself how compassionate you are that inner Sergeant Major you said that's so impactful Joanne.

Joanne Smith: Yeah, yeah. the big thing ⁓ is that the symptoms, the pain real and that it's not imaginary. And that ⁓ be a really big thing that I would have loved to have been. had somebody to share that with But knowing that ⁓ the brain is capable of creating a pain or a symptom higher ⁓ than many things that the physical reason could actually create would have been so good to know. Like, because I'd ⁓ many painful... ⁓ occasions, childbirth, dental pain, all kinds of genuine legitimate things and I'm like but how can this not be something happening but yeah that would have been of such a good understanding to know that it's possible to recover.

Ollie: That's such an important thing, isn't it? And not to think of it as a mental that you need psychotherapy for because you're ill or because you're mentally unwell. ⁓ And ⁓ to know that people believe you, believe the pain you're experiencing is equally, exactly the same sensations if you've broken your leg or if you were going through childbirth, it's exactly the same pain. ⁓ It's just the root cause is different.

Joanne Smith: you know. Yeah. from my experience, it's not even exactly the same pain, it feels higher. Like the volume of it, the volume of it is way higher, I would have rather had a broken leg.

Ollie: Yeah, let's more. That's so interesting, isn't it? So in actual fact, your experiences, emotional pain or pain driven by your mind is actually higher volume, higher intensity than a lot of the physical pains you've experienced in your life.

Joanne Smith: I can think across the mic. Yeah, massively. From my personal perspective, I've always been the kind of person that when I understand what the cause is, I can cope with it, but that pain is different.

Ollie: Yeah, yeah.

Joanne Smith: So yeah, ⁓ good point to leave it on, I guess.

Ollie: So knowing that, that's such a good point to leave on, I think it's a transition for healthcare actually, which is a very exciting because it's gonna open up a whole new set of treatment strategies that I know are gonna be really effective. But at the center of it is this core understanding, isn't it? That minds can drive symptoms that are equal, if not more intense ⁓ than any of sort of physical damage to the body. And exactly as you said, ⁓

Joanne Smith: Mm-hmm.

Ollie: Dr. Sarno's work, Dr. Shudman's work is all around making sure we're vigilant to the physical symptoms, that there's not active inflammation or cancer or tissue damage going on, but then also knowing how to diagnose when the mind is driving it instead, accept it as equally real, equally valid, and know the type of treatments we can offer for that type of pain or those type of symptoms without belittling people, making them feel stupid or mentally unwell. Wouldn't that be a lovely place to get to?

Joanne Smith: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it sounds like a dream, doesn't it? It sounds amazing. But we can't.

Ollie: Well, Joanne, I think you're part of a movement that is driving that now. And like you say, now you know it, you're not going to not going to let go of it.

Joanne Smith: No, definitely not. ⁓ thank you so much. You summarise it.

Ollie: Well, thanks, John. It's been a pleasure speaking to you. And this is going to be great for people to hear. ⁓ thank you for all you do, people like you, just helping this to become more normal and to become ⁓ the way we view the world without putting people down. Thanks so much, John, for sharing your story.

Joanne Smith: Yeah. Thank you too. Anytime.