Tim Williams: As many of you know in health coaching and beyond, and I aim to mix up conversations between the two of us and interviews with people we admire. Our aim is always to help you think really well. Today's conversation is about the simplest question in healthcare and perhaps one of the most powerful, what matters to you? We spend a lot of time in health and care asking what's wrong, what needs fixing, what the diagnosis is, what the pathway should be. So hello, I'm Lanthi. Iolanthe Fowler: Hi, Tim. How are doing? Tim Williams: Very well, thank you. I'm delighted to have you on the podcast. ⁓ I know we have a bit of a conversation before kind of thinking, ⁓ you've had all these kind of amazing people on and you kind of thinking, and now it's me. Well, it's not you. You're amazing too, Alain Thierry. We've known each other for a long period of time now. But I'd love for those who've not heard of you yet, if you wouldn't mind just introducing yourself in whatever way you would like to to the people listening in. Iolanthe Fowler: Good. It's me. Indeed. Tim Williams: All of that matters of course, but increasingly there's recognition that truly good care starts somewhere slightly different with an understanding what matters most to the person in front of you. And few people have done more to help embed that thinking across ⁓ Sheffield than Dr. Alanthi Fowler. Alanthi has worked across general practice, hospital leadership and integrated care with a particular focus on joining up services in ways that make sense for patients Iolanthe Fowler: I feel like I need to put a silly voice on there. Introduce myself in the style of someone. Okay, so I'm Aunty Bala. Lovely to be here. Thank you so much for the invite. So I am a Sheffield girl. So was born here. ⁓ I escaped for a decade and then I've been back ever since. So yeah, I am a GP. I work at Richmond Medical Center. Tim Williams: families and staff. She brings that rare perspective of seeing both the complexity of systems and the importance of keeping care human within Iolanthe Fowler: do Thursdays there and it's very nice to go back there and kind of get back into the clinical world once a week and the rest of the time I've got a split role now at Sheffield Teaching Hospitals so I am clinical director of integrated community care and I'm aware that probably means nothing to most people but the way that STH is organised they kind of divide their services into directs and then they're Tim Williams: Today we will about her role, what person-centred care looks like in practice inside a busy NHS organisation and why a deceptively simple question can sometimes change the entire direction of a conversation. Iolanthe Fowler: ⁓ bunched together a few directors make up a care group. So I'm clinical director and one of the directors and integrated community care has quite a lot of community services in there. So things like community nursing, community therapy, GP out of hours, podiatry, ⁓ single point of access, ⁓ active recovery, which is that kind of services that sit between hospital and community service, stopping people. ⁓ going into hospital, they really don't need to be there and kind of getting people out quickly. And I'm now desperately hoping I've not forgotten anyone. Front door response team, I think was the last one. And then the second role that I've got at STH is an Associate Medical Director for the interface. So primary community liaison. So just to try and, I suppose, with a foot in both camps, community, primary care and secondary care. help people work better together and smooth out some of the bumps in the road that can sometimes occur, I suppose. Tim Williams: Wow, I mean that's just so much. don't know if it does it feel like a lot, don't think I mean it doesn't feel like there's enough days in the week to do all of that. I don't think how do you how do you manage all of that for yourself? How do you manage? Iolanthe Fowler: Yeah, I'm just gonna go and have a lie down, Tim. No, I've said that. So I've, gosh, I mean, ⁓ there are a lot of people doing really busy jobs, aren't there? And I suppose I am somebody doing a busy job, but ⁓ it is, I suppose I've been doing this long enough to think ⁓ I still want to do it, because I think I've got something to give and I work with amazing people, so I enjoy it. And... we are making little bits of progress all over the place. So there's loads of plates spinning and very occasionally, I think it's okay to say in this safe space, one might slow down, wobble, occasionally even drop, but most of them are spinning at a reasonable speed. We're making progress and I just, yeah, I get out of bed to try and just move things along a little bit and that's okay. Tim Williams: Yeah, and I noticed you said that about the people that you work with and the team. It makes such a difference, doesn't it, in terms of how the week is and the contribution you're able to make as well in terms of your energy and your enthusiasm and all of those things that kind of make a big difference. Iolanthe Fowler: Yeah, absolutely. It's always the people, isn't it? It's always the people, Tim. So, yeah, I think, again, maybe as you kind of progress, you realise that you just need lots of people around you to work in these complicated systems and do good things. And you need people with a whole array of different skill sets and talents. I think one of the amazing things about the NHS is that it does... it brings people together with very kind of disparate skill sets and backgrounds and melds it all together. Yeah. Tim Williams: And again, you've got quite a unique kind of insight, both being a GP and then kind of working in secondary care. So I wonder what you've learned over the years in terms of what is it that makes things, systems, people, what is it that makes people work well together, do you think? Iolanthe Fowler: is about treating well the time. You can't achieve anything unless you treat people well. So ⁓ whether that's colleagues ⁓ or patients, you you have to start with ⁓ a kind, civil... ⁓ compassionate approach and in that way you will form the trust and relationships that allow you to go on and do great things. And I see that every single day, working well and working not so well. Tim Williams: And again, think the other kind of places, mean, at parts of Cross, I mean, I think we were on the same coaching course, weren't we, in 2013, I think. But I don't know if you remember this, but I met you a little bit before that. were teaching, do you remember? I think you were teaching. Oh, you do remember, that's nice. So you were teaching the kind of the F2 doctors. I was becoming one of the trainers for those. And I remember you leading, expertly leading a training program. But you remember that as well. Iolanthe Fowler: I do! do remember. Yeah, I do remember and I do know I wonder whether I get a chance to say this today but so you were the person that actually said to me at the end of one of these training sessions, FD training sessions, you should come and do the coaching thing. I'm doing this coaching thing and I think you'd really like it and so you are totally the person who introduced me and got me going with that coaching journey and I'm extremely thankful. Tim Williams: Wow, I didn't even know that. certainly didn't know how strange I've not even heard about that until now. ⁓ Yeah, great. Well, I'm glad because you're going to be a great coach. And I suppose you're able to blend the kind of the coaching that you've learned in the same way that I blended the coaching that I learned in terms of our kind of day jobs as well. So tell me a little bit about that, how you've managed to do. Iolanthe Fowler: Yeah, you did. Yeah, yeah. there's definitely something about coaching conversation, isn't it? The kind of creating the listening space ⁓ for people to do best thinking. And I try and do that ⁓ everywhere. ⁓ Probably ⁓ less so home, you ask my family. Possibly I'm a bit more direct sometimes at home. ⁓ But ⁓ yeah, ⁓ try do because we know. ⁓ that that helps people to do their best thinking and good things come of that. So, so absolutely it's approach. It's a methodology to to to kind of doing the rest of your your work, I suppose, and the way you live your life. ⁓ But then there've been some very deliberate ⁓ bits to that. so I have worked with a colleague, ⁓ Saul. who's our head of podiatry and we set up a coaching program for our care group. So we've been on a bit of a journey with that and I would say it's been properly going for maybe about a year now. But it's taken bits of coaching programs that both Saul and I have experienced ourselves and we've got a really small but very enthusiastic and capable bunch of coaches and we're offering coaching to absolutely everyone in the care group. ⁓ you know, the domestics can access it if they choose to, all the way up to, you know, kind of very senior managers, anyone is welcome to come and experience coaching, either just a one-off conversation or a series of coaching sessions. So that's really exciting. Tim Williams: Right, and what's been the impact of that? That sounds really exciting, I like that, but what's been the impact of that? Iolanthe Fowler: it's always amazing when get ⁓ an email popping to inbox that says, dear Alain, they just wanted to let you know that I've just had some coaching with so and so. They were amazing. It's been ⁓ fantastic. It's, you know, think about one example. It's helped me to apply for, successfully apply for my next role. ⁓ It's helped me make about what I want in my career. ⁓ Lots of emails like ⁓ And then what we're actually trying to do is formalise the evaluation. So we've not got enough people through the programme yet, but I'm hoping we'll be there by Christmas. So by the end of this calendar year, we're hoping to have an evaluation and a paper that we can then use to describe the success of the programme to other parts of STH. there lots of conversations going on in the organisation about coaching generally and I think for us it was about making coaching available to everyone. Tim Williams: So important, isn't it? think. ⁓ again, in terms of the coaching, mean, again, these are people who are kind of they're coaching their peers, aren't they? And I suppose the other thing is the hierarchy is then slightly is different as well, isn't it? Iolanthe Fowler: Mmm. Yeah, I think it's fair to say we were really mindful of that and ⁓ I think this kind of potential conflict of interest or imbalance in the power in the relationship is just something we were really open about and have discussed ⁓ everywhere really. We have a coaching champions regular ⁓ session we get together once a month and it's very much part of the conversation there and we're just continually checking with each other how it's working and it's, I hope, something that would come out in the evaluation as well if it was causing kind of difficulty for anyone. I think we were worried about it for a while and then we just thought, could stop us from doing something that would benefit loads of people, so why don't we just get with it, try, see what happens and we can always, ⁓ you know. shift direction or do something different if it's causing difficulties ⁓ but so far so good. Tim Williams: Yeah, it reminds me of one of our associates who talked about kind of working with groups and she said that, know, version one is better than version none. You know, it's always, you've got to make a start and then you can kind of, you know, can, you know, differently depending on what's going on. But you've got to make a start and yeah, don't want people missing out because we want to get absolutely everything kind of crossed off and eyes dotted and things. ⁓ Yeah, sorry, I like that, yeah. Iolanthe Fowler: Yes. Absolutely. Yeah, know, I'm just going to say I think it is a real risk in the environment that we work in, in healthcare actually, that we are so ⁓ committed to getting things right and not making mistakes and with good reason, don't get me wrong, we want to get things right. But with stuff like this, with better conversations, kind of trying to shift the culture a bit, which is ultimately what we're trying to do. Tim Williams: Yes, yes. Iolanthe Fowler: ⁓ I think you're right, think version one is better than version non, I'm going to use that, that's brilliant. Tim Williams: Yeah, nice one. I'd love to kind of think a little bit about what matters to you because I know that's been something that's been really dear to your heart, that kind of what matters to you conversation shifting that from kind of what's the matter with you to what matters to you and again in a kind of a clinical setting with with maybe the patients and people we might support but also with colleagues. So I wonder whether you could speak a little bit to that in terms of your experience of what matters to you conversation. Iolanthe Fowler: think a lot ⁓ people, and ⁓ I certainly ⁓ had feeling that ⁓ you know when it's well in a ⁓ consultation, you know when are working and you're ⁓ earning the trust of and you're kind of helping them to think and decide how they want to manage their ⁓ healthcare condition. or current issue. And I think that as time's gone on, I have been given ⁓ more information that's helped me make sense of why sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. And very simply, I think it rolls back to shared decision making, compassionate interactions and the ability to prioritise the person in front of you's agenda rather than imposing your own. So I think the what matters to you ⁓ phrase really gave me a simple way to describe what I'd learned over a couple of decades was what worked best. And I think that's why I'm so enthusiastic about it. So it's, it's, it is a really simple concept. sort of sitting over a really challenging, complex culture and sort of environment. And I think beneath it sits loads and loads of learning and opportunities to work in this way. But again, just, it just for me, it captures the methodology and the culture really simply. And it's a way that you can then start to talk about it in lots of different areas and people remember it. the peak of a of the coaching staff, the compassionate care, compassionate leadership, some of the work that I had done with service improvement leads and actually. I think where I really learnt about the what matters to you, and I have to say a massive thank you to John Seddon and the Vanguard Method team, because it was another occasion where a friend said to me, ⁓ I'll answer, you'd be interested in this, why don't you come and do this course with me? So coaching was you. And this was a friend called Nick Downham. And he went and did, he was going to do the Vanguard Method People-Centred Services course, which was over a year and involved going and doing some face-to-face learning. And they, I think they introduced the language of what matters to you to me. So yeah, that was where it started really. Tim Williams: Yeah, so how long ago was that then, Ananthi? Iolanthe Fowler: So that was 2016-17. So 10 years. Tim Williams: Yeah, yeah, because I remember, yeah, because I remember us first getting involved in teaching what matters to you. And I think it was just before it was just before Covid, so it must be in 2019, I think we're putting together a programme. then of course, Covid happening and then we had to shift everything online. So in some ways, it was our first ever programme that peak health coaching kind of put together to deliver at scale. And Yeah, it was an exciting time. And also we were just able to realize, actually this stuff works online. We can do it online as well as it's delightful to do it in person. And I've been doing quite a few courses now at STH ⁓ in person, but it also works delightfully online as well. And we designed it for people, suppose, at those ⁓ bands two to four. So people that maybe wouldn't traditionally kind of get this level of training so that I suppose... Iolanthe Fowler: Yes. Tim Williams: That kind of what matters to you starts from the front door, doesn't it? So your first contact with an organization starts with that kind of mindset. Iolanthe Fowler: Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. If you as a patient don't get compassionate, I'm going to keep using that word, but compassionate, kind of what matters to you, orientated, first contact with ⁓ an organisation such as Sheffield Teaching Hospitals or your GP receptionist, it immediately kind of colours the whole experience, doesn't it? And I think this, for it to work, it's got to be seeded at every level throughout organisations. Not that I'm over ambitious, but I know a lot of people share this thinking about compassionate, what matters to you, personalised care approaches. the hope is that little by little we'll shift it so that it's across the entire NHS and social care. That's the ambition, I think, that most people would. describe if they're passionate about these approaches. And why are we passionate about these approaches? Because it's good for patients. So we know that it improves patient experience. But not only that, there's really good evidence that it improves the outcomes as well for people, whatever outcome you're talking about. And then, of course, the Institute for Healthcare Improvement in America, they described this sort of additional bit actually It gives you joy in your work. It's protective against burnout. It just makes you feel good as a member of staff. And all these things together mean that as a system, it works more efficiently and there's less complaints and people kind of bouncing around getting what we call non-value-adding care. And so it saves money. So it's just a complete no-brainer. We just need to do it. Tim Williams: Yeah, it's interesting, isn't it? Because I think often we kind of do this training, we kind of go, yes, it's really good for patients and the people we support to kind of have that what matters to you conversation. ⁓ But actually, it's really good to hear that actually it's good for the person who's having that conversation as well and asking the question of like, what matters to you? It's really good for them ⁓ as well. And certainly, I have to say, experience of working with ⁓ teams within Sheffield Teaching Hospitals. It's always a delightful part of the training where people have a what matters to you conversation with a team member and they just get to in really short time, I think we only give them seven and half minutes each way, a really short time, you can get quite a long way when you are deeply listening to someone about what really matters. Has that been your experience as well? Iolanthe Fowler: Yes, absolutely and one of the things that we very deliberately did when we were trying to introduce what matters to you culture methodology was introduce it into our staff appraisals. So ⁓ all the colleagues ⁓ in ⁓ our care group which is called CCA are offered a what matters to you appraisal and very similar to appraisals from it starts off with the what matters to you question and you know obviously asked in an authentic way so that ⁓ people, ⁓ hopefully they've been on peak health coaching course and they'll have those skills, but if they haven't yet, they still know that actually that first bit of the conversation is going to be, so what's going on for you? What matters to you at the moment? And the thinking was that we would introduce the concept, help colleagues become familiar with that. ⁓ and also get the best from them. And if we're helping each other to be as fulfilled and sort of happy as we can be at work, then there's a much better chance that we're going to pass that on to patients, not only with the what matters to approach, but just, that you can't pour from an empty jug or whatever the saying is. Tim Williams: Yeah. ⁓ again, I think that feels really wise to do that. It's a bit like, because when we teach coaching ⁓ when we teach the What Matters to You, actually, you don't know the benefit of it until you experience it. And you go, ⁓ my goodness, that was the first time someone asked me what mattered. That was the first time someone really deeply listened to me. Because it's not a usual experience, ⁓ suppose, for folks, is it? ⁓ Yeah. So again, so how's that going then? is everyone at SDH having a What Matters You appraisal? Is that what's happening? Iolanthe Fowler: No. No. I wouldn't say everyone at STH yet, but I do ⁓ know that quite a few other directors and care groups are now ⁓ experimenting with the What Matters to Your Appraisal. So I have been asked ⁓ quite recently to share the paperwork and people are interested. So hopefully that is going to be something that wider proportion of services are using. because, and this was from another service, another part of the hospital, we know the results can be amazing. And as you've said, Tim, people come back and we did evaluate, we did a pilot and we evaluated and the kind of comments that people shared then and are continuing to share are, that's the first time that I felt listened to, the first time that I felt that my line manager really wanted to know about me as a person. and the line managers using the approach said, it felt like a different conversation. It felt much more useful, much more personal and allowed us to get into some of the conversation about what will keep you well and happy at work. And we've had for a long time sort of health and wellbeing conversations available for colleagues. But I always think if you can do the sort of preventative upstream work with anyone, they're talking about patients or colleagues, surely that's got to be better than waiting until there's a problem and then going, here's a health and wellbeing conversation you can go and have to sort yourself out. ⁓ So yeah, that's the thinking. Tim Williams: It's interesting, we're talking to organisations, businesses kind of outside the NHS as well as within the NHS to see how we can get health coaching into business and organisations and it's exactly for that reason that it is upstream. It's kind of, it's how can you remain well and get even more healthy as well as how can you manage this particular kind of stressful situation you now find yourself in. ⁓ It feels a very proactive, preventative approach as opposed to like you say, their wellbeing conversations when something's already gone wrong or mental health first aid or when something's already gone wrong. Actually, we can, if we just took the time to just maybe even ask that question while what matters to you, but also what are you doing to look after your health at the moment is a simple, straightforward question. And wouldn't that be good if everyone felt able to respond to that honestly and authentically without fear of, you know, something being detrimental to their career or something like that. Iolanthe Fowler: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. One of the things I sometimes get as a pushback is, so I have this phrase that I use, people will ask for the moon on a stick. And generally speaking, they don't anyway, know, that people just don't, they ask for reasonable things. But even if as a line manager or a person having a conversation with a patient or someone under your care, even if people do ask for things that you think are not doable, reasonable, whatever it is, I always say, at least you know where they're coming from. At least you've got a kind of baseline and there's honesty in the conversation. And that goes two ways, doesn't it? So if the honest truth is, you know, quick example so I suppose one of the things people say to me is well what if everybody asked for Friday afternoon off you know how are going to run the services and I say well there's what matters to the individual there's what matters to you as a line manager there's what matters to you as a service there's what matters to you as an organization and you can kind of keep layering it on, can't you? So I think for me, the what matters to you conversation enables an honest conversation and sometimes quite difficult conversations about the fact you can't accommodate everyone or possibly even need at times. But you can either come to a compromise or even, I suppose, agree that actually this particular role for your colleague right now might not be the best fit and maybe there's stuff that you can do to make that better and then that all leads into the health and wellbeing agenda doesn't it? So yeah, think I'm not I'm not at all worried that having these kind of conversations will create disharmony. I think exactly the opposite. Tim Williams: Yeah, because this stuff is going on below the surface anyway. So it gives an opportunity, doesn't it, just to kind of put it on the table and then, like you say, have an honest conversation about it. And I think when we were delivering the training to clinical colleagues, is very much that kind of, haven't really got time to do that job, and now you want us to do this, what matters to you conversation? And I say, no, you haven't got more time, but it feels like a really important investment in the time that you do have. Iolanthe Fowler: Yeah. Yeah. Tim Williams: And I was talking to some physiotherapists and they said, well, I've got an hour maybe for a new patient. Well, actually five minutes out of your hour to have a what matters to you conversation just is an investment in the next 55 minutes in terms of what you might be able to get to in terms of outcome. ⁓ And yeah, think people, yeah, I think people get that when they experience it, they get it, they get it. And actually they can do this alongside and blend it with the work they're doing. It's not like I'm gonna do Iolanthe Fowler: Yeah. Yeah. Tim Williams: do this on top of everything else. I don't know, that your experience as well? Iolanthe Fowler: Yes absolutely I think there's again a sort of strong message that I always try and get through about this is not this is not saying that your knowledge skills and kind of professional competence is any less important than it was yesterday. It's not that at all. It's just that we know that if we just tell people what they should do based on our assessments, that often doesn't work because either it's just not doable in that person's reality or they're not on board with it for whatever reason. And having the what matters to you conversations allows you to make sure that you're going in with something that's best fit that kind of personalized care offer. So it definitely isn't wasting time. And I would say it saves time and it stops us doing the non-value adding bit, which costs ⁓ and causes frustration, annoyance. And then, you you do get people complaining, not giving good feedback to the service and the service then. you know, feels despite all their best efforts, they're not achieving. where next? So there's that. And I think, so I went on Friday, I went to Concord Sports Centre where the musculoskeletal team were doing what we call a community, you're nodding like you know, the community appointment days. had days and I know that a lot of the musculoskeletal team have been through the training team, the What Matters to You health coaching training. So they're using all that knowledge now and they are inviting patients to a community venue, know, hospital and there's loads of pros for not going to hospital for your appointment, aren't there? But they're having a What Matters You conversation right at the beginning. So patients are invited in, they complete some basic work. trying to get them to think about what matters. They then have some time with a physiotherapist talking about what matters. And then there's a range of facilities there. There's rehab, there's the ⁓ consultant level physiotherapist, there's podiatry. ⁓ On Friday, they had Sheffield Talking Therapies, they had Move More, they had More Life. ⁓ So it's kind of, know, weight management services, psychological, sort of mental health services. exercise services ⁓ and back to work, sort of, you know, encouraging people to talk about work difficulties, restrictions and get help with that. So, I mean, what an amazing offer. ⁓ And if patients don't want to choose that, they can choose their usual kind of hospital-based appointment at the moment. So again, sort of a massive, massive service change. ⁓ I think it's fair to say kind of a leap of faith, but not because it's not the right thing to do, but just because it's so different. and there'll be an evaluation and hopefully this will provide more ammunition for other services to do similar things. We have got services doing other things, I could name you a whole host of services that are changing the way that they interact with patients and putting that what matters to you conversation right at the front. So good things are happening. Tim Williams: Yeah, it's good. again, I think this is because they started these last year because I remember doing the training for the group last year and then they come back again for more training again ahead of those groups. And again, it is obviously doing something because then Word has got round and then Doncaster is going, well, we want to do that as well. So again, we went to train their team again to have those kind of what-matters-to-you conversations. And again, it's really delightful when you do these conversations as a team, because again, it's almost like Iolanthe Fowler: Yeah. Tim Williams: It's not meant to be, but it's kind of a team building day because you get to have all of those really great conversations. And again, it's helping people understand that it's not what matters to the person necessarily about their knee or their back or whatever. It's like what matters to them in life. That's the thing. That's the conversation to have. And then it's like, okay, tell me a bit more about what's going on with your knee or your back. it's with then you've already unpacked a whole lot of understanding. You've got that mutual understanding of what's going on. for that person in that person's life. ⁓ Yeah, it feels like, so every time I do that, I kind of go in thinking, ⁓ this feels really basic for these people who are really highly trained. But actually, the more times I do it, go, actually, we could all do with just going back to some of this basic stuff that we, which we know now is so important and so easily slips off the agenda. Because we're gonna do the numbers and be really quick and get people through the room as quickly as possible. But the thing that makes the difference is when people feel Iolanthe Fowler: Yeah. Tim Williams: cared for and looked after and someone's taken an interest. That's the thing, I think. Wonderful. Look, ⁓ we are mindful of time, Alain Fee. we've kind of rushed through. I can't believe we've kind of gone for half an hour. I there's rush through. But is there anything more that you would like to share in terms of your experience of kind of what matters to you or coaching in terms of the context that you find yourself in? Iolanthe Fowler: Yeah. Yeah. Wow. just how invigorating it is ⁓ as a ⁓ to work that way. ⁓ And ⁓ think the moment there's so much talk about sickness rates and burnout and people kind of really struggling with the intensity of the work. ⁓ And it make me think again about ⁓ the... ⁓ what I learned when I did the John Seddon Vanguard Method course. they, so a lot of, think John's thinking is based around ⁓ a philosophy from many decades ago about trusting people. So there two kind of ways of thinking about your workforce, trusting people to know what they need to do and that they will get on with it versus command and control sort of, you've got to watch people and give them explicit instructions and don't let them deviate. And I suppose really, you know, that instruction is coming from people that are removed from the work and don't really understand it at that level. And I think that giving people the autonomy to do what they know is the right thing to do for the person in front of them and for the service ⁓ is the right thing to do. But I think for leaders that can feel very, very uncomfortable and ⁓ risky. And I think the more we can embed this way of working and, you know, reinforce what matters to people, you know, from the patient-clinician conversation all the way up and just trusting people to make changes and do things that facilitate the right things to happen. is not only kind of better in terms of experience and outcomes, but will be better for the system. I think that's so important. ⁓ So, yeah, I just think, you know, the training that Peak Health are providing at the moment is kind of really equipping people to get out there and do this. And in the background, we've got people working on data collection and KPIs to prove that that's the case. and I'm really excited about what this will mean when it all kind of comes together. And in the context of, I've not mentioned this yet, but in the context of Sheffield Teaching Hospitals has a clinical blueprint for the next 10 years, which is called Care 35. And what matters to you is absolutely at the heart of that. So, you know, we've got a commitment from the board to help this happen and make this happen. and we need to continue the training and talking about this so that people are equipped to do it and ⁓ help to do what think most people know is the right thing to do, to make personalised care available to everybody who comes through the door. Tim Williams: Yeah, and they want to do it as well. You know, and they want do it well, they? That's the thing. They definitely want to do it well. And I think, yeah, it's a reminder because we have got a train the trainer program because again, it's delightful to do the training. But actually what needs to happen for it to be sustainable is that, you know, Sheffield Teaching Hospitals has to have his own trainers that can deliver this to their colleagues. Yeah, for that kind of what matters to you conversation to become kind of business as usual. This is kind of how we work in this organization. And won't that be a delightful organization to work in? Iolanthe Fowler: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Tim Williams: where not only are you providing that for the patients and the people using the services, but also you're having those conversations with your colleagues. And that's just normal. That you take a bit of time to understand what's going on for people outside of their work environment. Because there was a difference, and I think you alluded to it, there was a difference, isn't there, asking that question kind of superficially and it becoming kind of a bit of a tick-box kind of thing, and asking it, and then really paying attention. Iolanthe Fowler: Thank Tim Williams: a video we often play on the training and it concludes with you know, ask what matters, listen to what matters, do what matters. And again, just seeing people not just for the condition that they have or the colleague that they are, but the wider picture. Lovely, so I'm going to just check in if there's any more, Alan, in terms of what's happening there. So Care 35, that's exciting, it's embedded. Anything more in terms of appraisals and things for people in terms of what matters you're coaching? Iolanthe Fowler: Yeah. them. Yeah. So the appraisals is just kind of happening and I hope that as the organisation as a whole starts talking and thinking more about what matters to you, helped by Care35, more people will ask for the paperwork, what matters to about paperwork and will think more about what this means for colleagues as well as patients. And the train, the trainer, yeah, absolutely really important. just, I think... never assume that something is kind there to stay, you need to keep kind of lighting that flame don't you, make sure it's still burning etc so there's something about making sure that yeah people still have a place to go to ask questions and and sort of be re-trained and then We've got a conference in June so every year What Matters to You Day is around the 3rd of June so this year it's the first week in June, the first Tuesday in June and we as a care group always celebrate What Matters to You, we do... newsletters and know competitions and all kinds of stuff to celebrate the work that our colleagues are doing on this approach year round. But this year we have a conference so that's very exciting and I know that the peak health is coming along and you're going to do a session for us as one of our breakout sessions for people that might not have heard or experienced it yet. yeah we've got, as say we've got the MSK colleagues who come in to talk about their community assessment days. We've also got Alan Lobo and the gastroenterology team talking about a personalised care programme where IBD and we've got a patient participation group coming along. So colleagues Rachel and Vicky and others are coming to talk about, you know, how it feels as a patient and co-production. ⁓ we have also got one of my colleagues, Mike, coming to talk about personalised care and kind of leadership to embed. So really exciting keynote speaker who is all about looking after yourself ⁓ working in the NHS and we've got the charity involved so it's a real feel-good day I'm really looking forward to it but yeah just let's kind of keep the light shining firmly on what matters to you. Tim Williams: Thank you. mean, it's such a, in some way, it's such a kind of a simple kind of ⁓ concept and it's a simple question to ask, you know, what matters to you. But it's sometimes that I think we find it easy to kind of miss off because we're so busy and actually just taking the time like we've done today, just taking a bit of time, just to kind of really unpack what matters to someone feels really, really important. So I really appreciate you, Alain Theon. And in terms of shining a light, I think there's no brighter light than you to shine on the work that that's going on here. So I will appreciate that, which is it takes a lot of energy to kind of for that light bulb to particularly shine on this work because again, it's not like, it's, it's, you can just do it once. You've got to keep on doing it, keep on doing it, keep on doing it. And I really appreciate the work that you're doing to keep that light shining on this, I think really important topic. So thank you for that. Iolanthe Fowler: Thank you. That means a lot. Thanks, Tim. I've really enjoyed it. Thank you very much. Tim Williams: It's a pleasure, nice to have you on. Okay. See you later. Bye bye. Iolanthe Fowler: All right. Take care.