Ollie: Hello folks. Well, I am delighted to be joined today by fellow GP, Dr. Hussain Al-Zabadi. Hi, Hussain. In Health Coaching and Beyond, Tim and I aim to mix up conversations between the two of us, churning over hot topics and latest news and emerging ideas, but also bring you conversations with thought leaders and people we admire in the field of health coaching and beyond. People we hope will help you think well and spark interesting ideas for yourself. This week's guest is Dr. Hussain Al-Zabadi. First things first, I want to share that we invited Hussain to attend our four-day tailored health coach training as our guest.

Hussain: Hello, how are you?

Ollie: really good and good to see you in your t-shirt you've got your sort of ⁓ your t-shirt ready for the the fit club for the in the practice this afternoon

Hussain: you 100%, 100%. Everyone knows around Leamington when you see this little royal blue t-shirt, it's the fitness club that we do for the primary care network. So we have activities throughout the week. Our biggest one is on a Monday evening where we have a walk, a power walk and a jog, as well as a swim group that occurs during the evening. So people have got different things for different peeps. And it's not just the patients that are there. We have a number of staff members from the social prescribers, health and wellbeing coach and other GPs that attend and join.

Ollie: So you could imagine there may be some bias in his comments around health coaching. On our part, we actively seek out some of the trailblazer practitioners, those who are leading new approaches like lifestyle medicine, or who we see as true natural ambassadors of person-centered care, or just stand out leaders in the field of healthcare altogether. We're always curious as to how health coaching enhances or not the way they think and practice. We hope to learn together.

Hussain: in.

Ollie: Well, I'm sure we'll get into that, but I always do a little bit of an introduction and it's a bit of a challenge with you Sings. You have so many plays spinning. I really don't know how you have time to even breathe really, but let's have a go. So I'll probably miss some things off, but so you're a GP like myself. You are a lifestyle medicine doctor trained in that. are health partnerships leads at part run. That's a global role. You're a presenter on the Redwell education platform. Hussain is undoubtedly one of those forces of nature. He's a GP frequently chosen to address the nation on BBC ITV Channel 4. You've probably seen him before. And as you'll hear from his list of roles and credentials, he's a true champion of modern, compassionate healthcare. So it was of our listeners will be really familiar with that, probably one of the most prominent education platforms in medicine. You're a TV doctor. I more often see you on the red couch these days than anywhere else. Good morning, Channel 4, BBC, ITV. You're a trustee with Think Tank CSW. You're a run leader with Run Talk Run. What else have I got down here? You're a triathlete, competed for Team GB. And of course, you're a trained health coach and personal trainer as well. a privilege to explore his personal journey and how health coaching has influenced both his personal and professional life. He's a huge advocate of the wider determinants of health and how our community has a huge part to play in our health and wellbeing. I'm sure the insights he shares will get you thinking whatever your role, be it inside or outside the NHS. And of course you're a physical activity champion for the Royal College of GPs. Is there anything else important I've missed there, Hussain?

Hussain: Yes. Nah, not important, not important. We've covered all the important bits, I think.

Ollie: I know you do so much. Yeah, I know you as just an energetic, enthusiastic person. You're such a joy to be around, but well, maybe we could start there, because I know your personal journey is quite interesting. You haven't always been super fit, have you? Do you want to just tell us your journey a little bit?

Hussain: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I guess, you know, now movement is such an important part of my personal and professional life. So it sometimes comes as a bit of surprise that it's relatively late in the day that I discovered it. It would have been like my need to late 20s, so like 26, 27, that I found it. And it was all because a number of things going through kind of university, stresses at home and stresses of junior doctor work, which I'm sure you can remember. that is lots of new things happening.

Ollie: the vague distance way back so a little bit further back than you.

Hussain: was all essentially leading to me to lead a lifestyle that was coping with the short term pressures but leading to long term impact. It wasn't until I was diagnosed with something called Masold, which is a metabolically associated steatotic liver disease, essentially where fat infiltrates the liver and it starts causing problems that I really kind of woke up to it because I knew that I wasn't leading a healthy lifestyle and I knew that. you know, I needed to do something. I didn't have attempts of trying to, you know, go on diets and do that kind of stuff because I'd gained a lot of weight over a long period of time. It was like a slow increase and it wasn't till that and it sort of struck a chord because my father has a lot of health issues and probably one of the key ones is that his muscle progressed to starting to cause really significant liver issues and I realised that I was kind of ahead of him in terms of the damage and it really frightened me if I'm being honest. And that kind of got me thinking that I had to re-evaluate things. I had to try to understand what were the drivers behind why I was living the way I was living. And it took a lot of time and I probably didn't see any kind of material progress for about one or two years. A lot of hard work, but nothing really to show for it. I gained even a little bit more weight and my health was pretty much where it was before. But eventually I got to sort of this tipping point where I finally discovered movement that meant something for me. form of parkrun. My colleagues had invited our local parkrun event team into the practice to let them know about the event and to encourage staff to signpost patients to the event because the parkrun practice initiative had been set up and our practice was one of the early adopters. And I remember I hadn't even heard of parkrun before, I didn't even know what it was, but it sounded, sounded alright and for the last year or two my wife had got into running. I didn't, I always thought like, what is she doing? It looks awful. I tried it a few times. I tried it a few times, I'm like, this is awful. It's just the most unpleasant experience I've ever done. And I was like, you know what, let me invite my wife, let's go to the park run. What I can do is I can just sort of cheer on the side. It sounds like something she'd love to do. She hadn't heard of it either, despite being a runner herself. And so once you got there, I don't know how to describe it. Those of you that have been to the park run know, but.

Ollie: Looks like hard work.

Hussain: Like, it was just this community hub and lots of people that I knew were just there, lots of people that didn't know were saying hello and... being really welcoming and lovely and I kind of got dragged to the start line. Like I didn't consciously make a decision that was gonna run but the movement of people like I don't know what the psychology was but I just sort of moved into the start line and before I knew it I was now about to do a run not in any running clothes. I didn't actually own any running clothes and I was just moving and don't get me wrong finishing that 5k was impossibly hard. Like there were multiple moments where I thought that was not possible. I vomited twice, like this is how tough it was. I even had a patient like check on me, ⁓ that knew me, lovely guy. But I managed to get to the end and I don't know why despite it being a horrible physical experience, I had made the decision that I was gonna come back. and that I wanted to do this again and I wanted to get better at it. And that kind of just snowballed from there. It's a very long story beyond that, but that was the kind of defining moment where in my brain I had changed my relationship to exercise ⁓ and I knew I was gonna come back.

Ollie: I've not heard that full story before. It's so powerful, isn't it? And I as a doctor, having lived experience, knowing what it's like to ⁓ not be a natural exercise or not sort of look after yourself. I think it's very easy, isn't it? To think it's just something that everybody should do. Lifestyle medicine, so ⁓ well known now, everybody should just do But having that lived experience of how hard it was before, do think that served you well?

Hussain: 100 % because I think like it made me realize that that over about 10 years my Perspective on so many things have changed from what I used to think was just me, you know I thought that I just wasn't a sporty person. I thought that You know, I just didn't enjoy those things. It just wasn't me. I used to always say oh, that's not for me and the one thing I learned was that you know, don't assume anything is not for you and just explore things and and realize that there may come a time where it is for you potentially and And so I think what mattered most from that experience wasn't that I completed five kilometres. I think what mattered most was that I had ⁓ done ⁓ and had it with other people. I think that was the real ingredient that I missing before. And all the that I'd on ⁓ diets or tried to do counts to 5k myself, et cetera, it was always alone. ⁓ And I think I wanted that because there was the vulnerability of that a young guy, a doctor is struggling to do even the basic stuff, move more, eat better. I wasn't even being able to do that. And I thought that if I just kept it to myself, I could fix it and then expose myself to others. But then as soon as I realised in parkrun and that lovely interaction I had with the patient that was checking on me, I could tell that he wasn't disappointed in me. wasn't disappointed that his doctor was doing awfully at the parkrun. He actually really cared. At the end he said, you know, I'll see you next week, you know, and it'll be great to see you again. And like, I just realised that actually, it doesn't matter what people think of you, whether it's negative or positive, the vast majority of people are always gonna be there to lift you up. You just need to expose yourselves in the right environment so that you allow people to do that. And I think that's what I try to do most with patience is I try to explain that you don't have to do these things on your own, and that actually is really difficult to do. And we can all just try our best to support each other to move in a direction that we wanna do.

Ollie: There's so much in that. I think what really struck me with what you said there is that ⁓ so often healthcare professionals, think we to be the experts, don't we? And we don't like to of expose people to the fact that we might not be as perfect as we think we are. ⁓ So much of ⁓ what we see, don't we, ⁓ is driven by this kind of feeling of whether you're a professional or you're a patient anybody really. ⁓ And I love the way you described that, just discovering that vulnerability was okay. ⁓ That sounds like it was a really transitional moment for you in life, for saying.

Hussain: ⁓ definitely, definitely. remember just knowing even at the time when I was heading home that like that something had changed, something had shifted. ⁓ And I was kind of wanting to now work out what could I do with this changed kind of mindset and how could I approach other things in my life, whether it be relationships, nutrition, work, all these elements. It led to kind of a cascade of decisions that supported me to create an environment that was now much more conducive to healthier lifestyle rather than trying to force healthy lifestyle behaviors into an environment that just wasn't welcoming of them because they were actually leading to increased stress in the short term and therefore, you know, failing to maintain it. I knew then that I needed to create that same kind of environment I had in park run for physical activity. I needed to do that in other walks of life because it wasn't just being inactive that was my issue. I had lots of other problems. So I just tried to replicate the kind of element that I found there in other elements of life.

Ollie: a real knock on effect for you. Did that sort of underpin, I mean, since I've known you lately, you know, do so many things. You know, you're a lifestyle doctor, which I'd love to come back to, but you know, you do your TV doctor bit. So do you date that sort of, you know, stimulus to sort of think positively about yourself and create that community environment to a lot of the things you've done, or were you doing some of these things already before?

Hussain: Oh no, wasn't doing any of that. And don't get me wrong, I was very hardworking and I was very strong academically. And I think that was one of the parts of the detriments to what I was doing. So I was just forcing myself to succeed in the way and the metric that I was brought up to believe was kind the only measure. And it was having serious impacts on the rest of my life. And what I then realized was actually removing the focus primarily purely on work and career to having a much broader approach actually led to more progress in my career. Like I don't know how to describe it. Moving my focus away from the focus of what I was trying to do finally unlocked other areas because I was starting to do things that I really believed in and actually meant more than trying hard. I was actually doing better at it because the passion was there and people could tell that and they could feel that and it led to a whole cascade of things. know, like the work that we do. with a practice in having physical activity groups and community connections, et cetera, that got noticed by the Royal College of GPs and that's where I got that role. then, know, channel four saw some of the projects that we're doing, some of the patient testimonials, they reached out. And so it led to a lot of kind of progress in my career, not in the direction I was specifically looking for previous to that, you know, I was looking for other stuff, but. it suddenly unlocked a lot more, I don't want to use the word productivity because that sounds very kind of corporate and clinical, but I was just far more effective at what I was doing in a better timeframe now compared to what I was then when I was putting in way more effort but getting way less output.

Ollie: It's really interesting that it sort of surprised you and that it took you. That's a core thing about coaching principles, I guess, isn't it? You can't really tell someone what to do. They have to discover it for themselves. And you've just beautifully described there how discovering something positive, something surprising, just triggered a cascade of positive outcomes for you. It's lovely. And of course, one of the things it led you towards was lifestyle medicine, which has certainly become a key area. You're a real advocate for it, aren't you? Tell us a bit about that and how that then chimed with what you were thinking as a doctor.

Hussain: Yeah, so the experience of my personal journey was that I realised that a lot of the things that I was trying to correct, which at the time was yes, the liver problems and I had high blood pressure as well, like the actual benefits that I got from instigating various other ⁓ sort of lifestyle changes was way beyond it. I realised that actually I was tired all the time before and I was anxious quite a lot of the time and I just had a lot of kind of brain fog that I didn't even realise because it was normal. ⁓ what I was living with for years I just assumed that that's what we all do and I just I just realized that a lot of what the benefits that we gain like Patients, yes, we kind of break it down into the metrics of, what do the blood results show? What does the blood pressure say? Let's get it within those targets. ⁓ Yet we're not really measuring the things that matter more ⁓ because in the end, you know, if I think about the biggest I've got with the changes I've got, it's not that you know, ⁓ inflammation in the liver reduced. ⁓ It wasn't that my milligrams of mercury of blood pressure was now below a certain target. It was that, you know, I was more empathetic. I was more creative. I had more energy. I wanted to get out of bed. Like, you know, it a long time, but I had to drag myself out of bed after like five snoozes on the alarm. Like now, like I want to get out of bed. I'm looking forward to it. And so that personal experience, it translated into my professional work. And that's where I kind of approached lifestyle medicine, knowing that even though I was academically really strong, always top in uni, always trying to get the best marks, ⁓ I was just really ⁓ lacking in knowledge ⁓ in lifestyle medicine, which I found ⁓ shocking and it was timed because I was to build up this kind of ⁓ with ⁓ primary care because even though I knew all the pathways, I knew all the guidelines, I up to date. ⁓ My patients weren't getting better. You know, like I was maybe minimizing complications. I was maybe reducing the risk that they would have a stroke. You know, if I looked across a thousand patients that I supported, but I wasn't making a real material difference to the trajectory of their health. And I felt very ineffective. My friend and colleague, Callan Lease, uses the analogy whack a mole medicine where, you know, we just have a short period of time and all we can do is just whack the mole that we see first, knowing that

Ollie: Yeah, the one that pops up, yeah.

Hussain: there's gonna be other moles just popping up. You we're not underlying the issues underneath that's just below the surface. And that's where my love for lifestyle medicine came in, because I knew that if I could support people to create an environment for them to make changes that they want to make, then that's where we see changes in health trajectory. I wanted them to experience the same things that I had. And definitely for many of the patients that I've known for a long time, my personal journey, they could see me visibly changing in front of them. ⁓ I know that that... was really kind of meaningful for them. now, where am point where I've lived a certain lifestyle for a decent period of time now, I try to really think back to what were the experiences that many of us, including myself, faced early on. And it wasn't until I did the health coaching course at Peak Health Coaching that it finally made me click that it's just about creating the environment for change, not prescribing or instigating the change. That's the subtle shift that we need to be careful in lifestyle medicine. Because I think for many, when they first start off and you build up your knowledge and your experience, you're desperate to give that to someone else. You're desperate to let them know all the, you know, latest in terms of evidence and impact. ⁓ But ⁓ rarely has impact for people if it's not meaningful to them. ⁓ And you can't assume and know that until you get them to start driving ⁓ and thinking that themselves. ⁓ And that was a big shift for me because I found that in terms of my ⁓ consultation skills both one-to-one and in a group setting vastly more effective once I adopted that approach. But it wasn't easy, don't get me wrong, I'm not going to pretend that I suddenly, you know, ⁓ utilized these coaching skills off the bat. It took time, but it's clear that it's more effective.

Ollie: Mmm. Well, you've given me a green light there. I was going to come to the health coaching bit a bit later, but maybe let's get it on the table now because, you I'd love to come back to, you you're involved in educating people around lifestyle medicine, aren't you? Through the British Society of Lifestyle Medicine, through Red Whale. But picking up on what you've said there, that's always been a worry for me as a doctor as well, is that ⁓ there's always a risk that because we've got so much knowledge ⁓ and we're super enthusiastic and desperate to help people, aren't we? Our natural instinct is to want to download that knowledge onto people and to tell them what to do and to sort of like, you know, if only you did what I said, your life could be so much better. You could have more energy like me. You could feel better. But I guess what you've just highlighted there is crucial, isn't it? And maybe part of your own journey that ⁓ you had to discover things for yourself. ⁓ And so having some health coaching skills has shifted how you practice. as a clinician and how you set things up and what you do. So I'd love to dive down onto that a bit more, because that's almost the nub of what drives me as you know, through this podcast and through the work that Tim and I do with peak health coaching, it's seeing that that is so effective and maybe it's been a bit of the missing ingredient. So I want to dive down onto that a bit more with you, if that's all right.

Hussain: Mmm. Yeah, definitely. And what made it even harder for me to actually utilize those skills at first was because patients would ask, they desperately wanted kind of just what my plan would be. They'd go, you you tell me, you know best, just tell me what do, ⁓ I'll do it. ⁓ And, you know, for a time, you know, I would try and I'd say, okay, let's create a plan. This is plan that I would work best. And ⁓ for some, ⁓ small proportion, ⁓ it works and they're able to do that. They're activated enough. They, you know, ⁓ it aligns with their and it But I was realizing for many... Like they had great intentions, they seemed highly motivated, but it just wouldn't work and they know what's best and they listen to a million podcasts. They've read a million books and yet it doesn't tangibly change the outcomes in terms of the behaviors. ⁓ And ⁓ I ⁓ had hired recently a health coach called Dr. Joe Fleming. ⁓ It's probably about four years ago, roughly I'm trying to remember. ⁓ Yeah, brilliant health coach. And ⁓ she shadowed me on some of the group consultations just pick

Ollie: Joe, yes, brilliant health coach, yeah.

Hussain: the tricks and to understand how it works, et cetera. And then I observed her delivering some. And I remember. session that she did, I sitting there going, oh this isn't going well, like this isn't going well, like she's not guiding them through enough of the information, she's not giving them the bits of knowledge that they're looking for around nutrition, physical activity, she just keeps asking them questions and getting them to know discuss things and pull things out. I'm thinking you know what is she doing?

Ollie: She was getting them talking, getting them thinking for themselves,

Hussain: Totally, totally, and look now, obviously know that that was the right thing to do.

Ollie: What a waste of time! What a waste of time! We could have been telling them what to do!

Hussain: And actually some of the patients found it quite difficult at first. You know, like she had to really work quite hard And then I realised by about like the third session, she had them, do you know what mean? Like they were far more engaged, they were starting to come up their own plans, they were really bringing it out for themselves and And that's where I eventually, with the help of yourselves and doing your course, that I started to realise what it was that she was doing. And actually it took completing the course to fully get it. to suddenly realize that actually we do need to give them the space to have those discussions and those thoughts themselves. Suddenly we see now that actually far less information being given, but far more discussion and decision and empowerment the individuals. ⁓ And leads to better results over the long term. You just have to be patient. And ⁓ I think that's ⁓ something that I've with experience of observing her ⁓ and learning the skills in order to apply it. ⁓

Ollie: That's great to hear, thank you. And I suppose there's something about trusting the process there, isn't there? But as a GP, I mean, I know what it's like as well. You get 10 minutes, 15 minutes in a consultation. You've often got lots of other obligations crowding around you, making sure you've covered off the blood test, told them to stop smoking, tick this, tick that. And also not miss the things that might worry you in the back of your mind. Am I missing a cancer diagnosis here? Or is there something I ought to do as a referrer?

Hussain: Yeah, done, quaff, gone through the box, yeah.

Ollie: So how have you brought that into your practice then? Is it just through the group work or do you bring it into your everyday consultations as well?

Hussain: So like yeah to do it purely for your consultations, it's extremely challenging but there are definitely things you can do over a very short space of time to just plant those seeds and I think what you first need to realise is that try to avoid just giving lifestyle advice in a consultation because when time is precious it's probably one of the least effective things you can do because let's say you start talking about yeah movements gonna improve this or you know eating better is gonna improve that your patient nearly always already knows that. It's very rare that I meet people that this is a huge surprise and a turning moment. Instead, what we want to try and shift is get them to consider for themselves what are the kind Actually, in your Stop It model, I used the first three letters, STNO. I think about what are the signs that they feel that they want to do something? What are people telling them in terms of this particular change they want to do? What's the outcome they're looking for?

Ollie: Yeah.

Hussain: focus on the first three things and that takes me about three, four minutes and I find that that is enough to just get them thinking and get them considering and then that's where we have these group consultations where if that... creates a response that the patient's positive with and starts thinking and considering, then we go, do you know what? We run groups where we do this over a much longer format, one hour sessions, where you can discuss these things with other patients with similar conditions to yourself. And that's the key cell. Rather than trying to clean everything off in one consultation, just try to get them to consider attending a group consultation like that. And we deliver that through the PCN. So all the practices in our PCN can signpost into it. And that's a more effective way because if you're trying to do all this work... in the few minutes at the end of a 10 minute consultation or a 15 minute consultation, it's really difficult So ⁓ like ⁓ I really do advocate that groups are just an effective way ⁓ for to engage more people in a shorter space of time ⁓ and you get all added of support ⁓ plus you know the kind of ⁓ the community builds up as well outside of those groups as they ⁓ naturally connect with each other. The patients there ⁓ they nearly always form bonds that go beyond the group sessions where they become sort of advocate buddies or whatever you want to call it where they can work together on this shared goal. ⁓

Ollie: Yeah, there's so much to about groups, isn't there? So ⁓ I think what I've heard you said, and I just quickly say that the stop it model is Dr. Tim Williams' model. ⁓ We use it very much centrally what we teach peak health coaching. It's not the only model out there, but it's a great way of getting people going, isn't it? It's lovely to hear that you use it tangibly. ⁓ What it sounds to me is though, it's almost ⁓ you're planting a seed as a GP with a short period of time. ⁓ You're highly respected and also you're using your professional to, ⁓ I guess, decide that this is a useful ⁓ place to focus. Considering everything else you could do, you could prescribe a medicine, you could refer someone to a specialist, actually choosing to, ⁓ if you like, sell a health coaching approach and to try and get people thinking better for themselves is an active choice as a professional, right? So people respect that, I know, and I know that as a GP. ⁓ But I'd also appreciate what you're saying is you haven't got time then to do everything in that consultation. So having the backup of either a health coach working with you or PCN led group sort of setting enhances what you do. I mean, what would you do if you didn't have that? Do you think that's kind of an essential?

Hussain: I think it's great. What there are often is community groups and other, let's say, council or voluntary sector services that often go unnoticed by primary care where they don't fully understand what's on offer, how patients can access it. Because time and time again, I've been invited to attend and take part in lots of these kind of initiatives. And they're brilliant. They're amazing. And the people that run them, they really care about the work they do. And when I ask them, what are the key They go, well, GPs don't refer to us. know what mean? Like, the surgeries just, we barely get any referrals. And I'm just thinking, God, you know, there's so many clinicians that would love to sign poster activities like this, they don't know about... And it still is, it seems shocking that in 2026 we've still got the issue where these services are crying out for patients and primary care is crying out for these services and yet we can't seem to mix them together and really connect them in a meaningful way.

Ollie: Yeah, no, I can see that. can see that. You are such an enthusiast, the same, but I think what you're saying is that there's stuff out there already. You don't have to set something up yourself. And it's interesting, isn't it? You've been, you you are one of those people that when you see something, you tend to just go for it, don't you? I can see that. And you're a big leader of education then through the Red Whale platform. And so I'm curious really how the health coaching kind of culture and mindset that you've described here, has that kind of...

Hussain: ⁓ yeah.

Ollie: informed or changed the way you deliver education through the Red Whale approach or your work with the British Society of Lifestyle Medicine. I know you're very active with them as well, a great organisation.

Hussain: You know... Yeah, yeah, yeah, it definitely has. It has affected pretty much every aspect of my professional work, whether it be in sort of media or education. And it's also actually, I know this is gonna, I don't know whether this is right or not, but it's affected even my personal relationships. Like I'm so much better. Yeah, oh my God, like I'm so much better at navigating conversations. Oh yeah, it's definitely better. It's definitely better. And, and.

Ollie: ⁓ no, it hasn't done that has it? I hope it's better. ⁓ it's better, it's better. Okay, good, good. Phew! I thought you were about to tell me I'm a much better doctor when I'm getting divorced, you know?

Hussain: Not yet, not yet. ⁓

Ollie: It's better, go on, tell us.

Hussain: ⁓ totally. It's better. Like, and my wife, she would even like comment on, let's say the way I navigate discussions with her and the way I navigate discussions with other family members. Like it's just trying to essentially, I assume less. I think that's the right way. I assume a lot less and I ask a lot more ⁓ and I listen a lot better. I those are the kind of key things that I've on board ⁓ with the coaching. And I ⁓ try not to tell what to anymore. ⁓ And it's it's liberating once you finally do it because I was the kind of person that a lot of people used to ask me for advice for lots of things. And I'd try to be helpful and I'd always give my advice.

Ollie: Yes, and you give it, yeah.

Hussain: And then I thought, okay, if I'm switching to this more coaching mentality, maybe people will get frustrated that I'm not giving them my thoughts and advice. But actually, if you do it well, and you're skilled at it, people don't even realise. And the amount of time people say, ⁓ do you yeah, absolutely, it's been great discussing it. Now I've kind of worked out what I should be doing or what I should do. And most of time, the ideas that they come up with are not ideas that I would have come up with myself, like, and that they think it's me that's come up with them. But I've literally done nothing apart from reflect it back and get them to think about it. And yeah, it's transformed so many aspects.

Ollie: That's such an interesting thing to say and hearing you saying that, I know that myself as well, but it's actually quite hard, isn't it, as a healthcare professional to do that, because always, as you said there, you almost feel like you're not doing your job properly, but also it is, you're unlearning that kind of natural helper instinct to tell people what to do, aren't you? So any tips on that? You've discovered the benefits of it. How has that journey gone for you then of really embedding it in?

Hussain: Yeah, I'd say the hardest place to do it is in the consultation room because often what I found when I was trying to deploy these techniques, they would go, ⁓ I don't know, you tell me. I've come here, you're the doctor, just tell me what to do. And what I found there is just speaking to the patient and being honest about why I'm using this approach. I'll be very clear. I'll say, do you know what? What I'm trying to do here is that you know a lot more. about the ins and outs, about your preferences, about the reality of implementing the changes that you wanna do, then I do. I have no idea what work's like for you. I have no idea what your relationships are like. I don't even know what your house looks like. So what I want to try and do is get you to use your expertise and then me to use my expertise to therefore come up with something that's gonna work for you. And so I'm gonna need your support and help in doing that. And when they hear that, I very, very rarely ever had a patient that turns around and goes, ⁓ no, that doesn't sound like a

Ollie: Yeah. Yes.

Hussain: plan, it often finally lands and goes, okay, I understand. It's not just the behavior itself. It's about trying to make sure it fits in with what I'm going to do. Like there's no point me advising them to do a certain form of exercise if one, they can't do it maybe, or two, they don't have access to the place to do it, or they don't have the equipment, or whatever. Like, so it has to be built around the knowledge. And so as soon as you sort of utilize that, that overcomes that barrier. But it doesn't mean that you don't get that difficult kind of repost. where people sort of throw it back at you and go, ⁓ no, you're the doctor, you tell me what to do. And sometimes they'll say it in a relatively rude way on occasion because they're frustrated and they're upset and sometimes worried. So you just have to make sure that you understand where that's coming from and try and get them to understand where you're coming from.

Ollie: Yes, of course. Absolutely. there's sometimes where it's more than appropriate, isn't it, to rescue someone they're in a hold of, they're in a crisis and actually they need that, don't they? They just need someone just to tell them what to do for bit, take that pressure off them, the psychological safety of that. But I mean, I don't know about you, what I've found is that often if you start to adopt this approach with a gentle, sensitive approach, explaining it, I love the way you've explained that there, they learn that with you and they come to expect it and enjoy it in the same way it sounds like you've come to learn the value of it for yourself.

Hussain: Thanks.

Ollie: don't want to put those words in your mouth, has it changed how you work? Has it changed things about being a doctor for you?

Hussain: Yeah. No, 100%. No, 100%. Yeah, no, definitely, definitely it's changing. And I think it's not about trying to diminish what expertise brings and what building knowledge brings because they are very useful and it's about applying them in the right way. Okay, rather than just, you know, just pushing your knowledge forward, it's about actually selecting the right bits of knowledge and support based on what you're getting back from the patient and where they want to take it. So it's not kind of you either build a coaching skill set or you build a lifestyle medicine knowledge you need both in order to apply the other and I remember first started showing some behavior change and some health coaching CPD that yourself and Tim had created for us at Red Whale. It was clear that people watching, it was a big shift in the kind of understanding and everyone really liked it. It gets really, really good feedback. And the key thing that people often say is that, like, it seems so obvious, but I just find it really hard to do at the time. But then having a structure and a kind of a way of identifying how to go through it really helps. And the thing that people actually enjoy the most is the toy analogy with T, O and Y with their ideas, other people ideas, your ideas. They find that really helpful just to have that as a kind of safety mechanism that you know, yes, you can explore with the individual first, if you struggle there, you think about others and then you've got your ideas as kind of a backup based on experience and knowledge. And I think that once you start to appreciate you're then better able to identify where you can apply your skills.

Ollie: Yeah, thank you. And the purpose of bringing you on here was not to be an advert for our course. I mean, I'm always intrigued as to what lands and it strikes me, you're a very generous person, Sen. You're generous in terms of you're open to new learning and to sort of making yourself vulnerable to learn new stuff. You're a very well down the line clinician with huge capabilities and skills. And the fact that you're able to take on new things is lovely. And I suppose if I was gonna push you one more thing, wonder, how you came on the learning, you came on a four day program. you need to do those full four days for it to land or did you start to use things early on? How was that for you?

Hussain: Yeah, personally think for me, it obviously will differ from person to person what the other experiences and skill sets, but I definitely needed the four days and I needed having Jo in terms of kind of a mentor on the ground working it through. And she would often help me in terms of, say I've done a group and I've applied as much of the kind of coaching skills that had at the time. And she would just point me in the right direction in terms of, know, maybe consider asking this or doing that or, you know, trying out this.

Ollie: Mm. Yeah.

Hussain: And that's been really helpful because I think what's really important is you do some qualifications to build up the skill set But then you also think about how you apply and that comes with experience I think we all remember that you know we learn consultation skills, but then until you actually practice it on a real patience It doesn't matter how much role play you do you don't have the real skills to apply it in the real world

Ollie: love that as well. And here, there's you. You're on the red couch advising the nation about healthcare as a doctor, a really respected doctor. And yet you've got Joe as a health coach supervising you and you're open to kind of feedback and learning. think that's just, that's wonderful. It just really illustrates that kind of learning mentality that we can all take, don't we? And I can see the benefits is God feels was brilliant. I mean, we're coming to the end of our time, but.

Hussain: 100 % ⁓ and just a tip for people ⁓ listening, never also, assuming things and assumptions, they honestly get in the way of the right outcomes so often. And I know why we assume things. It's a trait to help us make decisions quickly because there's so many decisions to do. But where it matters, really just stop and think, even if you feel super confident on something, never allow yourself to build up a wall to new information and new knowledges. bias sits, and you'll have all this unconscious bias, but you have no idea what's going on unless you make sure in that kind of world of knowledge, you have lots of doors ready to accept new information and things that will challenge that.

Ollie: That's lovely advice. know, I'm struck, was it Plato, wasn't it? Who, you know, despite all his kind of wisdom, or was it Socrates? I think it was Socrates, wasn't it? As he got towards the end of his life, he realized actually it was so much he didn't know and he became more of a listener and less of a teller. So, yeah, I mean, I can't let go without just, mean, you you do such a, ⁓ you're proactive in all your roles as a GP, but in all those roles with part run and the Royal College of GPs and ⁓ around sort of preventative approaches.

Hussain: Yes, 100%.

Ollie: You know, and it's time now we got the government saying we want to move from a sickness model to a preventative model. But it does seem really difficult. We tried to do this many times in NHS before, haven't we? What's your thoughts about that now? Are you feeling optimistic about it? Have you got any thoughts you just want to share around how we might achieve it or where we're going with it?

Hussain: Hmm. Yeah. Okay, so honestly, am I optimistic? No, I'm not optimistic. And the main reasons being is that...

Ollie: You

Hussain: in the key three areas that we would need to see a shift, we're not seeing it. So when it comes to kind of knowledge amongst healthcare professionals, still medical schools don't even include much of any lifestyle medicine in them, let alone preventative care, population health management. When it comes to confidence among clinicians, again, lacking because they don't have the skillset. Let's be honest, you know, like, I didn't have the skills to have these kinds of conversations with patients and it was an area I was passionate about, And when it comes to ⁓ understanding health, ⁓ health is made ⁓ outside of the consultation room. ⁓ So it's made in this room. ⁓ made outside of that. ⁓ And we're creating neighborhood health service the neighborhood health model. ⁓ ⁓ where I'm seeing it being done, It's trying to achieve something that we are many steps away from. It's trying to get essentially the healthcare to do this long jump and jump through a number of stages and steps to get to something that's actually really hard to do, but on paper looks brilliant and I'm 100 % supportive and behind, but I don't think there's an understanding of the reality on the ground that actually we need to train the staff better, we need to structure it better, the IT and infrastructure and the governance needs to be better. There's so many things that's stopping the reality of prevention happening and we can't just wish it into reality. We have to actually look about how can we naturally allow the health service to transform into that rather than just become it because we've said so ⁓

Ollie: Yeah, no, absolutely. a few episodes back, had professors of Chris Hammond, who's been very involved in policy. And actually, you know, in the wisdom of where he is in his career and influence, he sort of said to me, look, Ollie, you can wait for policy to happen. And like you say, people often aren't patient enough to let policy play out. But actually, you have to act at the individual level, at the clinician level, at the kind of patient. one-to-one relationship level. if I was gonna push you in the last thing, I'd be tempted to say if you were prime minister for a day, what would you do? But actually I'm more interested in saying, as a skilled practitioner with health coaching skills and with good knowledge, what would you have the everyday practitioner? Be they doctors, nurses, health coaches, what would you have those everyday frontline NHS staff do next?

Hussain: would get them to communicate with each of the different roles within the organization better as a first and foremost, forget about partnering with other sectors and partners that's down the line and that will be excellent. Often in many institutions, the health coaches, the social prescriber, the GP, the chronic disease nurse, they don't even communicate with each other, let alone this kind of complex inter-race of ⁓ neighborhood health. So how can we start to galvanize as a primary care, let's say this is the sector that I'm in, how can we start to work better together with more awareness of what each of us are doing, more awareness of our expertise, because there's so much out there. And time and time again I hear from these roles that the kind of left out on the sideline, no one knows what they're doing, they don't get much supervision, they're not being utilised and it's just such a shame because there's so much potential there that could be supported if people started communicating with each other.

Ollie: Yeah, that's sound advice. I mean, thank you for everything you do, Hussein. You're an enthusiast, you've got tons of energy. But what I really respect about you is that you're consistent and you're realistic. You you're tuning in, you're not doing this by saying everyone's got to work harder or just be energetic and full of it. It's actually being realistic and systematically doing the things over time that make a difference. And you really champion that. And I really enjoy having you as a friend and knowing you and just... Keep going with what you do. Thanks so much.

Hussain: No thank you, Ollie, it's likewise.