Ollie: Right, good morning. Well, this is a slightly unusual podcast because we've got all three of us from the of the clinical education director team here.

Tim Williams: It's nice, isn't it? mean, not normally me and you, but it's lovely to have Caroline here. And yeah, we should maybe do more of this. Anyway, well, actually, let's see how it goes first, Ollie, because, you know, if it's challenging, we might just... As many of you know, in Health Coaching and Beyond, we mix up conversations between normally the two of us, cheering over hot topics, latest news and emerging ideas, but also bring you conversations with thought leaders and people we admire in the field of health coaching and beyond. This week, Caroline joins Ollie and I to talk about our fourth annual health coaching conference, which was this week. It was called...

Caroline Hart: See if like it, see if you can persuade me to come back.

Tim Williams: That's true.

Ollie: We have to in our best behaviour because we won't get away with anything, Tim. We've got the brains, we've got the boss with us.

Tim Williams: Exactly. Let's be careful. On our best behavior.

Caroline Hart: Yeah, slush is seen everywhere.

Tim Williams: health coaching for healthy working lives, and we focused on workplace wellbeing. And if you missed it, you'll hear some of what came up, including our all new World Cafe tabletop conversations. And if you were there, it will hopefully be a reminder of a wonderful day that we had together and give some more food for thought. I hope you enjoy this week's episode.

Ollie: Yeah, well, it is lovely to be the three of us, ⁓ only Jennifer missing out of our four director team. So it's great. So you've got myself, Ollie, Tim and Caroline here to reflect on our recent national conference in person centred care. It's the fourth year we've done it guys. ⁓ And how did you feel? I I suppose we should maybe start with why do we put a conference on in the first place? Caroline, why do we put a conference on?

Caroline Hart: Yeah, that's a great question, isn't it? Why do we do it to ourselves year after year? But yeah, no, I think I seem to remember there was some kind of meeting where we were throwing ideas around and just kind of reflecting on how amazing it would be to get people together in the room and try to. build the community, as it were. You we do all this sort of training, people are kind of off wherever they are, but that idea of connection and bringing people together and building a nationwide community, I think has been really important to us. And I have to say, I always find it really energizing getting people, you know, together in person, you know, kind of 3D from around the country, you know, and sharing practice and... joining up the dots really, learning what people are doing in different places and getting bit of camaraderie going.

Ollie: Yeah, do you it's funny, isn't it? I met a number of people who I've only ever met online. And the thing that really struck me was the sparkle you get out of people's eyes. There was a number of people I met, and there's a depth to people's facial features you just don't get online. And it was people's eyes, the sort of like smile lines around the edge and just the sort of like the personality that came across in people that I really enjoyed. I know, Tim, what were your initial reflections about us all getting together?

Tim Williams: Yeah, well again, it's similar to you that actually there's people that I've only kind of met and I've only seen that much of them. It's that kind of seen the head and shoulders and that's it. Yeah, and I've just seen that bit of it. And so actually it's always sometimes a little bit tricky because there's people that of course recognize you from the screen, but you sometimes don't recognize other people. So I find that always a little bit tricky. But what was also lovely is seeing participants also they've only met online and then the participants seeing each other for the first time.

Ollie: You have a little tub.

Tim Williams: So they've been on a course together and sometimes quite an intense course like our supervisor training and they've never met in person before and just to see the joy of that ⁓ is really great. But I feel like it is a lot of hard work and especially for you guys and ⁓ for the support team because there's a lot of work that goes in and it's not something that makes us any money but it feels like it's a kind of a gift to the system really because that opportunity to get people together. ⁓ I think that's, I think for me, I think that's why we do it, I would say.

Ollie: Yeah.

Caroline Hart: Yeah, think so. I just sort of add really that, you know, we do know there are a lot of health coaches out there working really hard and quite often not necessarily alongside other health coaches. So they might have stayed in contact, but they're actually learning set. They may have other colleagues kind of around the country, but it can take quite a lot out of you, you know, doing health coaching work. So you do see that energy building in the room. And I have to say for me, one of the great things was just over lunch, seeing the conversations that were happening. And you can literally see that, you know, the kind of energy going up in the room. So, yeah, we're kind of really sort of satisfied to be part of.

Ollie: Yeah, Yeah, you're right. People are often quite isolated, aren't they? There's often a real focus on just churning through appointments and seeing people and demonstrating your worth by the amount of people that you see. And it can be quite isolating, draining. So to make time to have your managers and leaders who allow you to have a day off and to come along and to, you know, what can seem like a luxury, actually, I think it's quite an essential, isn't it? It kind of breaks down that sense of isolation and loneliness. and can really supercharge you again. And that's so important in your workplace to feel charged up and energized what you're doing, I think.

Tim Williams: Yeah, and I say that the lunch, I've just looked at some feedback, because I know we really messed up at the end, Ollie, because we didn't give the of the feedback thing at the end. Well, both of ours, both of our fault, but we didn't do that. So we've only just sent that out. So we've got a few replies, but I have to say the lunch scored very highly, as well as everything else. And I think that was also a lovely thing, because it is about looking after people who are, yes, working sometimes in isolation, but also, like you say, doing

Ollie: Yeah, my fault.

Caroline Hart: Thank

Tim Williams: really challenging work and getting amazing results. But yeah, it's just good to look after people, isn't it? So they didn't get the usual kind of beige sandwich kind of selection. They got, you know, a full on meal, which was really great. It was really good quality, really good quality.

Ollie: Yeah, well there's a serious point there actually isn't it, that like ⁓ you value people ⁓ you get more out of them in a lot of ways you know, so it's a simple thing isn't it, know, ⁓ people to have free tea and coffee in the workplace you know, ⁓ taking them out for a meal that's a nice meal and shows them that they're valued and appreciated. ⁓ things do go a long way don't they, so yeah I'm glad we tuned into that and it was well received.

Tim Williams: So, again.

Ollie: So, well, anyway, the theme was interesting as well, wasn't it? We chose this year, slightly different. In the last three years, we've really focused on health coaching, care coordination, social programming, link working, that personalized drive in the NHS. And this year, we slightly took a different line, didn't we? And thought about health and wellbeing in the workplace and a healthy, thriving workforce. Do you wanna say a bit more about why we chose that theme? don't know, Caroline, do you wanna pick up on that one?

Caroline Hart: Yeah, well suppose, my sociological background. You you sort of start thinking about what are the different... pillars or features of society that contribute to people's health and wellbeing. And whilst not everybody is necessarily in a paid role in a place of work, ⁓ many of us are, or we may be working in a voluntary capacity or whether that's part-time or full-time or whatever. So, workplaces seem really fertile territory to bring on board to support people's health and wellbeing. And actually what we know from lot of the data and reports that have been coming out, particularly recently with the GetBritain Working ⁓ kind of paper from the government etc is we know workplaces can sometimes not necessarily be the most positive place for people's health with know sedative preoccupation sitting behind a laptop or you know stress burnout all of this kind of stuff as well as it being a place that people are you know you're coming into with the rest of your life so you know if you had a very bad night's sleep or you've got kind of things going on outside of work actually that time that you're spending in the workplace is a great opportunity for you to be able to kind of maybe have a bit of space to think, get a bit of support and plan your next steps. So we really wanted to leverage really workplaces and the potential that they have to contribute to individuals well-being. But of course it is a win-win because if you've got a healthy flourishing workforce then your energy is going to go up, your productivity is going to go up and it's going to be good for that employer as well.

Ollie: Yeah, Tim, we obviously, you and I both worked a long time in the as GPs. We've seen the value of good work, haven't we? And also that, I guess it's a sort of feeling at the moment, isn't the NHS, you know, can't do all this by itself, the recruiting employers and workplaces, ⁓ as Caroline says, is a really big lever for health. It feels really important at the moment, doesn't it?

Tim Williams: Yeah, yeah, health coaching, that was the title, health coaching for healthy working lives, that was the title, wasn't it? And I suppose it's understanding the benefit of a health coaching approach, which is that kind of ⁓ proactive preventative approach, as opposed I think I heard Lee Vaughan, who did ⁓ pain ⁓ session, again, talking about kind of pulling people out of river. And actually what we need to do is more upstream. We need to be kind of preventing people from falling in the river in the first place. So I think that's the work that's really important and that's the work we want to be moving towards. And certainly the NHS is moving towards prevention, but I've heard some workplaces as well moving away from the kind of the reactive things that they do, like the employee assistance programmes, more to the prevention side. And so I think, and that's where health coaching naturally fits. So... Yeah, if we can get health coaches into workplaces and we can get workplaces training their own people to think in that more preventative space, I think that's exactly what we want to be doing. that was the focus and the Charlie Mayfield report, of course, was the kind of the stimulus. But again, you presented some data right at the beginning of the day, Ollie, which was which is good, actually.

Ollie: Yeah, yeah, well, I mean, there certainly is a burning platform. I totally agree with you, Tim. There's a great opportunity here, isn't there, to shift the culture of workplaces and create health, creating environments. But, you know, there is a burning platform here. We know the Mayfield report was sort of quite shocking, wasn't it? know, Charlie Mayfield called it the avoidable crisis. You know, that actually in the last five years, last six years, there's 800,000 more adults out of work due to ill health, physical and mental ill health. typically mental ill health in younger people, and then sort of musculoskeletal and chronic pain and physical things in older people. That takes us up to 2.8 million adults now out of work because of health and wellbeing reasons. And then there was a couple of other things that really impressed us as well that we wanted to put on the table. the Vitality Health Insurer did a really in-depth 10-year study, 2014 to 2024, and they have tracked the changes in health in the workplace. And they put a real light on presenteeism being the major problem. Everybody sort of thinks about absenteeism, you how many days you have off work and yes, that's an issue, but it's absolutely overshadowed by presenteeism, which is when people turn up at work, they feel they have to come to work, but they're really under par because of mental or physical problems. So they just don't perform at work. They don't feel engaged, they don't get stuck in and vitality sort of... have suggested that it's around about 50 days a year per whole time equivalent, which has gone up from around 30, 10 years ago. So it's a really ballooning problem. And then the CIPD, the Chartered Institute of Personal Development, always a really sort of strong player in this space, ⁓ produces a report each year ⁓ and a couple of their latest reports. the last couple of years, they really focus on what's getting in the way of health in the workplace. And what really impressed us is that top of the list is that line managers and leaders in the system feel they don't have the skills to be able to have a good productive conversation on health and wellbeing. They tiptoe around it, they're worried and fearful about the consequences of it for them and for the employee, so they don't do it. And that staff are just not accessing the stuff that's already there. So there's often employee... assistant programs, you but there's a lot of stigma about joining them. People don't see the need necessarily. And I guess that leaves space, doesn't it, for what we consider that kind of, you know, the conversational cultural bit that enables people to feel like they can reach out for help and find the right help that fits for them. And I think that's where we see health coaching really just filling a gap, don't we?

Tim Williams: Yeah, and think it was quite shocking, think. Jeff McDonald, who did a fantastic kind of opening of the the session. I think he said, I think this is right. He said seven percent is the kind of the percentage of people who actually use the EAP. So lots of organizations using, you know, investing a lot in these employee assistance programs and seven percent of people using them. It's just. Yeah, and it's maybe because, well, people aren't aware of them or again, maybe the stigma of actually accessing that support and help. which again I think really makes the case for health coaching, actually having health coaches but also having health coaching expertise in-house I think to support people but also signpost some of these benefits that they could be accessing I suppose.

Ollie: to add any more about the theme Caroline why we chose it what why it felt so important to you

Caroline Hart: Yeah well I mean suppose yeah a long time ago I did I worked for a big corporate company and they did have an employee assistant ⁓ program and as Tim said you know actually for those people who did take it up it was you useful but actually there were many many more who who didn't that perhaps could have made use of it and actually that workforce was a predominantly male older workforce and so again I think there's some stuff you could get into with the demographics in different people's workplace and their propensity to take up support if it's being offered. ⁓ think it's not only about having things in place, so you could have, you know, kind of in-house health and wellbeing coaches in place, but it's also about how you signal that, how you make it available and, yeah, the confidentiality part, but also, you know, like, how does it fit with your, your kind of working pattern and getting to and from work? And you've got other caring responsibilities around work, you know, actually when, when do you make use of that, that service and how does, how does work flex to enable you to be able to access that provision?

Ollie: Yeah, and often there's that feeling, isn't there, of like, if you're not in a trusted environment, you're a bit suspicious of what your bosses have put on for you. And, you know, what does that mean in terms of knock-on effects for you? You know, whether it be reports back into your managers, you know, does it put a black mark on your record? You know, there's that whole sense of not really wanting to open up and be vulnerable, isn't there, if you don't fully trust the system? Yeah, really interesting. Well, Tim, you alluded to the opening sessions, it was real... powerful first session, wasn't it? So Jeff McDonald, who worked for a long time with Union Lever at this real senior leadership level, and Karen Mosley, who again, is chief executive managing director of one of the real key local anchor organizations here. She'd been chair of the Chamber of Commerce or president of the Chamber of Commerce locally, a real leader. So the two of them together, beautiful illustration of the need for workplaces to be involved in looking after people. Jeff told great stories, didn't he? For me, I took away the power of storytelling, how he told his own personal journey story and how impactful that was. The line that stuck with me was that stories create a lifeboat for other people to hang onto. I really took that away.

Tim Williams: Yeah, I think sometimes, but yeah, can sometimes get hung up, can't we, about actually we've got to kind of, we've got to crunch the numbers. The numbers are the thing that's going to persuade people about investing in, in health coaching. But actually what he's saying is that actually the stories are sometimes the things that count, the things that kind of really make people stop and think about actually we need to do something different here. So yeah, he spoke really powerfully about his own experience. And then he also spoke. ⁓ about a dear friend who had taken their own life, which was really sad, but such an impactful thing ⁓ for people to think, actually, do you know what? If he had had maybe one conversation, he did allude to the fact that there was that grain of salt kind of chance that maybe things would be different. But actually, yeah, those conversations are really, really important. It's just a simple conversation to have. I, yeah, it was really impactful, I think, what he had to say. And I suppose the power of storytelling, as you say, to kind of, well, one, get people kind of really focused, but also really invigorated for the day. So I think he set the scene really, really beautifully, actually. Caroline, what did you think?

Caroline Hart: Yeah, I kind of agree. Yeah. And I think, again, it's just sort of highlights, doesn't it, that people can seem absolutely fine on the surface and that can apply to your, ⁓ you know, most senior leadership team. But unless you actually start to ask the question and ⁓ take that time to understand what's going on for then, you know, we just might not know. ⁓ But again, and I think it's the thing that I I saw on the site on this podcast a little while ago, talking about, you when did you last check on your neighbor? When did you last, you know, ask them how they are? ⁓ I actually think that in addition to getting kind of, you know, trained health and wellbeing coaches into workplaces. Actually, there's a lot of things that colleagues can do for each other. You know, we all have a role to play and that idea of shifting the culture that, yeah, we've got to get a job done. Yeah, there's KPIs, you know, whatever. But actually taking that time just to check in and see how each other, you know, is, is kind of a, that's a really important thing to do and to pay attention to.

Ollie: Yeah, absolutely. And of course then, mean, Karen, real tough act to follow after Jeff, after his sort of energy and impact, as you say, you know, Karen, one of the leaders still at HLM Architects locally here, you know, and clearly just described a beautiful journey she's taken that organization on building that culture of collaboration and caring for each other. You really came across, didn't it? So she really brought it to life. They were a beautiful combination and so much to... admire I guess about companies that do put time and effort into it and realize the benefits. You really got the sense that her organization is a lovely place to work and she's really super proud of it, didn't you?

Tim Williams: Yeah, and lovely to have the, know, suppose the emphasis on actually, you do need to create these structures for these kinds of conversations, but you also need to support people in how to have this, you know, that conversational skill that you do need to invest in building people's confidence to have those conversations. So yes, build the structures that allow those things to happen, but also invest in people in the skills to have those conversations. I don't know, Karen, if was anything else that stood out for you from Karen. Because again, was lovely to have Geoff's personal kind of account and then have the organisational ⁓ implications of that from Karen.

Caroline Hart: Yeah, no, I think I really just appreciated her sort of long lens of, you know, she's had a lot of experience and she's also kind of worked her way up through the system. She's very, very senior now, but you know, actually what's really nice is to see someone in that senior leadership role, but who can actually remember what it was like kind of on the way up. And yeah, just sharing that kind of real empathy and connection for, you know, for employees and really wanted to sort of do her bit and also being a leader in the city. Sheffield as well which is is lovely ⁓ and yeah we need more Karen's!

Ollie: Well, let's hopefully we could keep working with people like Karen to sort of learn together, can't we? This is great adventure we're all on together. And I hope many health coaches out there who may be working in the or are starting to work in, you know, WorkWell pilot supporting people or who are starting to emerge in workplaces. We want to stick together and support each other. So we went on to some workshops, we? We wanted the day to be interactive and to give people a chance to talk and connect and have their voices heard. So four different workshops. Which ones did you go to then Caroline? Which?

Caroline Hart: Well, I went to mental health in the morning and then I went to Paul and Glenn's workplace one in the afternoon.

Ollie: And any sort of standout messages for you?

Caroline Hart: Yeah, well the mental health one in the morning, know, quite sort of saving. I think just, you know, we kind of know what the numbers are, we? you know, mental health, everybody has mental health, you know, it's a thing, right? But, you know, it can go up and down. So it's not, we can't just categorise people into these different groups of people who've got, you know, issues with their mental health, as it were, and then kind those that don't. It's like, actually, you know, we're all kind of beings and that kind of did really resonate. But what we did hear was we heard from one, where they were talking about making a health and wellbeing ⁓ coaching service available for the workforce and I think around about 10 % of the workforce were making use of it. after a relatively short period of time. So I think it's this sort of iceberg thing, isn't it? That you might be aware of one or two people who, you you might think, oh, they're having a bit of a tough time. But actually, if you make a health and wellbeing coaching service available, you might be just surprised who uses it. What was interesting was how they were making it available. So people could make appointments, self-referral, and they could have an appointment in the diary. But if they didn't, need it. They could also feel okay about counselling it. So just sometimes having that point in the diary seemed to be helping some people and actually in the end they might not need to have lots and lots of appointments but just knowing that that facility was there seemed to be making a difference and I thought that's really really interesting. It's a bit like they take an umbrella and you kind of won't need it because it's not going to rain type thing so yeah that was really interesting.

Ollie: Yes, and that was Ellie from SEO Works, it? Another really innovative local company that are doing some great stuff. Ellie is the HR lead there and they're being very proactive, aren't they, around mental health first aid and layering health coaching skills on top as well. I think you went to that one as well, Tim, you?

Tim Williams: Yeah, I went in the afternoon. So yes, so ⁓ had Claire Boltby, ⁓ local GP, and Ellie as well ⁓ from the front. yes, it may be slightly different. So I was on a table with some health coaches. And I suppose one of the questions they asked was, you know, what could organizations do? What could employers do to improve people's health and well-being? And I suppose the thing that came out from that table was was providing some space and some time for people. Sometimes we can be really driven quite hard, can't we, by KPI's, expectations of target. I suppose what was a little bit disappointing is sometimes that kind of emphasis on activity as opposed to results. ⁓ Because were clearly doing an amazing work in the health coaching, but actually the focus being on ⁓ how many people you ⁓ So it's almost like we're focusing on the activity and the amount of stuff that you're doing rather than the results of the results of kind of what's happening for people because and I suppose that was that that was just ⁓ it was just interesting to notice that so that emphasis on actually what's the output And also let's look after you in this because it can be really tricky and really difficult and really challenging rather than just how many people have you seen, which feels very kind of medical model. We're measuring activity rather than outcome. So it's like, be really efficient, but more importantly, let's not just be efficient, let's also be effective. And sometimes that means that you need to take a bit more time for yourself ⁓ as an employee. ⁓ but also you need to take a bit longer with the people you're working with, I suppose.

Ollie: Yeah, it reminds me of what Cormac Russell always says, isn't it? Sometimes it feels a bit like you sort of go inch deep, mile wide. You just skin the surface for lots of people. Sometimes you need to go inch wide, mile deep and actually take the time to really get under the skin for someone. And if you can sort someone out, the ripples of that can be huge, can't it? But having enough trust in the system where you do trust people to go really deep with someone when they need it. And I suppose that's a skill of a system and a health coach in themselves, isn't it? When do I? realize this is not going anywhere and I pull back and when do I realize actually it's worth giving people time because they will really benefit in the long run. Yeah, tricky, tricky balance. ⁓ I did. I was brilliant. ⁓ You know me, I've got that little happy voice in my head that tells me I'm doing great, whatever. ⁓ Yeah, no, it was good. We talked about, I guess, how you actually implement health coaching in the workplace.

Tim Williams: So you did a session, Ollie. So yeah, how did your session go?

Ollie: some of the practicalities of it, you know, and there was definitely a sort of tension there about, is this just another thing we have to layer on? You know, is it more pressure on employers and leaders and managers when they're already also stressed and burnt out? So we talked about how it can just be little tiny changes, know, just just little questions you put in there, know, ways you do your appraisal, just just it doesn't have to be huge things. It's just, you know, demonstrating that you're prepared to, like I say, give people a little bit of space and time. give them, ⁓ ask them slightly different questions. ⁓ And ⁓ within that, there was a of that came up for me. was a thought about the power dynamics. think that's, I always, I'm really fascinated by that. ⁓ We know health coaching conversations happen best there's an even power dynamic. ⁓ And of course, ⁓ that's underpinned by central belief of coaching that people are resourceful for themselves. ⁓ So, as a leader and a manager, don't necessarily need to tell everybody what to do. You can try and. enable people to think for themselves because you trust that there's good stuff there. So in order to do that, how do you create that even power dynamic? And recognizing that it's often not even, you you've got line managers who might be performance managing people, you know, where it is always going to be skewed. But so people talked about ways that you can even up that dynamic, even when you are in a senior junior position, but then also considered, you know, what does it look like when it's peer to peer conversations, when there's a more even power dynamic straight away? or even juniors offering sort of coaching style conversations to seniors where almost by definition, the power dynamic will be reversed. And, you know, I just thought that was really interesting. And then the other thing was thinking about, you know, for leaders, managers and workers, what's in it for them in health coaching. And, you know, there's a different sort of, I guess, sense of, you know, return, but also threat from this. So for leaders, you know, they might be more... worried about the whole system culture and the overall productivity, but then concerned about sort of loss of control they might have and the time and cost that this gives, does it return for them? Do they have that kind of, you know, that leap of faith? And then managers in the middle, we know we're a artificial thinking about these three layers, but you know, the middle managers where perhaps they're much more sensitive the team dynamics and the relationships and the cohesion. ⁓ And they ⁓ tune into is their team happy? Are they working well together as a group? but again, also worried about that loss of their control, you know, being prepared to share that power and that, you know, the difficulties that come with that perhaps for them. And then from a worker level, you know, that real sense that health coaching helps people to feel valued and feel heard and that they have, creates a sense of belonging in a business. But it's a sort of two way thing, you know, that if you, you you want people to also identify and be, you know, loyal and committed to their workplace, to feel that sense of pride, but also give. give into it. But people also highlighted the risk of that vulnerability, what we talked about before about when people really do open up and engage with things, whether it's a conversation or going along to an EAP sort of facilities, does that put them at risk? Are they frightened about the consequences? And so do they really trust that the workplace is buying into this wholeheartedly? And I think those were some of the sort of things that came out.

Tim Williams: Yeah, sounds fascinating. Sounds fascinating. Caroline, went to a different one in the afternoon then. you went to poor houseman and Glenn Halliday, didn't you? So do want to share a little bit about that?

Caroline Hart: dynamic duo man, mean that was it was crazy and I have to say you know we could have had there not been a closing scenery after it you know we could have kind of carried on for a lot longer but yeah I mean the pair of them doing so much around work well. Paul Houseman, sort of senior sort of work well manager and Glenn really sort of nationally visionary really in terms of kind of thinking about work well and sort of the pilot and kind of how that's kind of, you know, being rolled out, et cetera. But Paul in particular was speaking about how they'd been listening to, you know, kind of the workforce, working in a healthcare setting and not being able to get access to the healthcare themselves. And so, of there was very much a ground-up initiative where you know the workforce was saying well you know how about we kind of make use of some of the services that are like kind of right here in our practice and started doing just simple little things like blood pressure checks and you know kind of there was a women's clinic that they were giving people access to at the weekend and things like that and Paul's actually been collecting data on just what difference that had made to absenteeism and the cost and really had some quite dramatic results. ⁓ relatively short period of time, you'd need to roll it out over a longer period of time. But really, really encouraging results to see not only people ⁓ anecdotally feeling better and that energy level, but actually in the hard bottom line numbers of the cost of absenteeism absolutely plummeting. yeah, you could really just, I sat at the back of the room, but looking around you could just really see absolutely was holding people's attention. and yeah it's really good fiction.

Ollie: The WorkWell pilots have been fascinating, they? Just to sort of elaborate on that, that's the sort of last 18 months the DWP's been experimenting with what happens when you put sort of coaching facilities into proactively supporting people when they're just on teaching on the edge of being out of work or just being out of work and trying to get them to have a smooth path to go back into work. And we've been very involved, haven't we, in teaching or training, sort of health coaching skills in that cohort. with Glenn in Leicestershire and across the country. And there was a number of people at the conference, weren't there, from these Workwell pilots? Lisa Proctor from the Midlands there, our very own South Yorkshire Housing Association, who very generously supported us, but they've been brilliant in South Yorkshire leading the Workwell pilot. And we very much feel like we're learning together on that one, don't we? But it's an interesting dynamic, isn't it? Thinking about being more proactive and preventative in...

Caroline Hart: you

Ollie: the workplace support in the statutory workplace support, perhaps sort of playing on the back of how fit notes are managed ⁓ more proactively in GP practices as well. Interesting.

Tim Williams: Yeah, and it's been really encouraging, isn't it, to kind of get some of the feedback from the Work Well coaches. And I think you've mentioned this before, that it's been quite transformative to me in terms of the way that they've been working with people. So it's good to see those health coaching skills being used in that way and having such good results. So yeah, that's good to see. I went to the pain one in the afternoon. our very own ⁓ Lee Vaughan, ⁓ our kind of trainer with lived experience of pain. And again, I knew it would be

Caroline Hart: Thanks.

Ollie: Mmm.

Tim Williams: I knew it would be good ⁓ just because he's great again at telling stories. ⁓ again, just hearing how he really was not supported well at all at his workplace. ⁓ And ⁓ yeah, initially, and had to really battle hard, I suppose, ⁓ to get what he needed from them. ⁓ yeah, and I suppose ⁓ that is an experience that will experienced. ⁓ time and again by people. yeah, really again, to be able to kind of hear his story and how kind of positive he is and how much energy he has ⁓ and his own journey in terms of managing his own pain symptoms. So that was really good to hear his personal story. And then there was Adam Davis from Pure Unity Health talking about the really fantastic results they've had from a health coaching approach in pain management. know, people ⁓ with their self-efficacy increasing there, not relying on medications so much and also not going to the GP so much. So if you want a reason to involve health coaching in chronic pain, I'll say that's definitely, they've got some fantastic data there, which is really good to see as well.

Ollie: Yeah, that's brilliant, isn't it? And Finn Robinson, we know well, who set up Pure Physiotherapy, now Pure Unity. He's always been really focused on demonstrating value, isn't he? Real stickler for capturing data and using that to leverage change in the system. He's so dynamic and Adam and Vicky and of course, Lee also now works for Pure Unity. They've got a whole team of health coaches, haven't they? Alongside their physiotherapists, they've got a whole team of... There are around 30 health coaches now and they're starting to see the value of ⁓ providing really good quality health coaching in the NHS, but also now in the workplace setting as well. It's just so exciting to see the dynamic companies like that actually getting into this and providing a solution that is now demonstrating impact.

Tim Williams: Great. So where else to go? I'm conscious of time now, but what else?

Ollie: Well, there was Caroline's new innovation for this year, the World Cafe, wasn't there? Caroline, talk us through the World Cafe.

Tim Williams: ⁓ yes!

Caroline Hart: Yeah, so that was a bit of a gem after lunch. So yeah, didn't want anyone slumping in their chairs and sitting back. So very participatory. And actually, what an experience. It was so lovely to be in the moon. So we had seven sort of tabletop discussions going on and people kind of moving about to kind of join those different conversations from thinking about menopause to working in groups, trauma-informed support, AI. and coaching, GLP-1 injections, workplace productivity, all kinds of different topics to kind of chew over. But what was actually really lovely was kind of listening to the way in which people were speaking with each other in a very sort of health coaching way, giving people time in turn and paying good attention. And you could kind of really see people listening and kind of leaning in. you know, people captured various different notes, which we've kind of got and we're kind of chewing over. I think we did definitely hit a few really key topics that are top of mind for people and it'll be great to take some of those conversations forward. So yeah, people were really up for the participatory element which was lovely to see.

Ollie: Yeah, that was good that. I mean, it was a new thing, wasn't it? So we moved away from a sort of a session previously we've had after lunch where we had a discussion, you know, quite lively, but it was very much people watching and hearing other people's sort of expert views, if you like, really. having a context where people have more opportunities to talk to each other and share their views, I think it really worked. Certainly the table I was on, I was on around measurement and, you know, thinking about how you measure productivity in the workplace and how this, you know, issue of presenteeism

Tim Williams: Here we go.

Ollie: it was so difficult and challenging to get your teeth stuck into. And again, I heard some fantastic examples of people using staff engagement measures, which are a really good surrogate marker of presenteeism and ⁓ how connected and sort of inspired people feel in the workplace. Something like things like the employee net promoter score I was really interested in. And in fact, we talked a bit about that in my workshop as well. And again, know, using things, borrowing things from the NHS like activation scores. that single activation question that has worked so well in the NHS, bringing that into workplaces. You know, one single question, you know, how good are you looking after your health? Turns out people are actually quite good at judging that. And you can use that again to tailor support, but then also monitor if what you're doing is bringing people along. So yeah, some really good discussion.

Tim Williams: Yeah, well, I got some great immediate kind of feedback from that World Cafe session. People, again, sometimes there can be that kind of slump after lunch, can't there? So actually getting people involved. And actually I remember, you one of the people that got a facilitator at the table said, I said, did that, you know, did that really well. It's just, what's the first time I've ever done something like that? And yeah, it's one thing I've ticked off my list. I'm thinking how great we're already kind of, you know, people are feeling empowered to kind of step up and be much more involved. ⁓ And again, know, know, Caroline, you work hard to kind of set people up with some kind of questions to get people talking, but yeah, just great to kind of get people involved. ⁓ And again, you know, one of the things that in terms of feedback we've had from other other times we've run the conference is that people wanted to go to more things. Well, this gave people the opportunity to go at least to two more things. And then there was an invitation, wasn't there, for during the coffee break, go to a different table and maybe meet up with some other people and make some connections. And again, I think that was one of the other kind of opportunities that we've really went for this year was that opportunities for people to network with each other. And there was plenty of that, which was really great as well.

Ollie: I think it was, I mean, we're sort of, you know, blowing smoke up our own arses, aren't we? But actually what I think it demonstrates is the value of a coaching style approach to a conference, isn't it? Where you're doing less telling people and talking to people and giving them opportunity to develop their own thinking and articulate their own ideas. The collective volume of knowledge in the audience far outweighs any speakers you could put up on a stage, isn't it? And I think it bore fruit, didn't it?

Tim Williams: I'm just thinking back to Caroline's point actually about how well behaved everyone was. was just sitting out of the other section looking on and I think it was your daughter, ⁓ Martha said, aren't they being well behaved? ⁓ Because everyone was losing their indoor voices because the tables were quite close together. But everyone was leaning in as you were saying, Caroline, and taking it in turns to speak and not speaking over each other and not interrupting using that Nancy Klein's component of attention was used really, really well. and taking it in turns and I said yeah they're doing really well she said well they are adults I said that's no guarantee of good behavior you should go to some other meetings ⁓ but yeah it was really really good to see really good to see

Ollie: Well, I'm just looking at the time, blimey, we've been talking for a while. I think we maybe ought to wrap it up. Any sort of final thoughts, any final reflections, Caroline?

Caroline Hart: ⁓ Well, I know this is a bit of self-inward thing, but I just love working with our Peak team. I think they were phenomenal in the run-up and on the day. And yeah, just kind of, yeah, I being part of the Peak team.

Tim Williams: There were orange t-shirts, weren't there, everywhere. They were by the lifts, were by the stairs, there were kind of absolutely... There was no opportunity, I don't think, for people to not know where they were meant to be going next. And it was a little bit complicated because the lift systems get funny, isn't it? You have to put on this screen the floor you want to get to and then it tells you which lift to get into. It's like a different way of doing things. Yeah, and it just doesn't happen, it? Without all of that pre-work, but also the work on the day that those events, and I know people who run events will know that. But yeah, and we had lots of volunteers as well. And of course our associates who were there, you know, giving their time generously as well. So yeah, it's good. It made me feel good about our team as well, Caroline. Ollie, what about you?

Ollie: Well, I just think it is the ⁓ effort that people make to make time for this. It's another thing to squeeze in, isn't it? But actually, I think it returns in spades that the ability to have a bit of reflective time, a of thinking time, expand your network. as Caroline said at the start, we're building a community, trying to do something that's not easy. We are trying to genuinely transform cultures and mindsets to actually be... you know, delivering proactive, productive, sorry, preventative types of support and care, which, you know, despite all the rhetoric, isn't really happening in most places. So just big up people that can make time to do this. And I think ⁓ the value of connecting in person and building networks is so strong. I hope the ripples will flow out. We certainly lots of people there who we could potentially bring on the podcast. really hope we'll some of the names you mentioned today be fantastic to expand some of their. thinking on this podcast. So watch out guys, we'll coming for you and inviting you on.

Tim Williams: been good to have Caroline along, it? I mean, think we should have more Caroline. That's what I think, Ollie.

Ollie: Well, we always say that, don't we? Thanks Caroline, thanks Tim.