Chase: Hello, everyone, and welcome back to the Point Church Podcast. I'm here with Pastor Sam as we have been diving into revelation signs of the times. And today we're getting into a big one. So before we did, I just wanted to ask Pastor Sam to really kind of share with the viewers your resources on this topic. Yeah. So the the topic that we're gonna be addressing is the third temple. Zionism, modern day Israel, how are we to understand this as, you know, as Christians? And, you know, this is an ancient problem as in like for two thousand years the church has wrestled with the idea of Israel, those who are the chosen people of God but were not maybe believers in Jesus. This has been attention. It's all through the New Testament. So some source materials that I went through is obviously the scriptures for one, multiple verses Versions and commentaries, a gift that was given to us by a rabbi friend who is a believer in Jesus is what should we think about Israel? Very helpful book, broken down by topics, and then reviewed a number of seminary notes for how to understand the way that Jesus talks about in the gospels, the book of Romans, and yeah, just a lot there. Yeah. Yeah. And so let's start off with the big question. I think when everyone where most people read Revelations, a lot of the first questions that people ask is what about Israel today? I mean, a lot of the questions that come up is does Israel, you know, fulfill biblical prophecy like the modern? And if that's true, then do we have to support everything they do? And the big one that comes up that we'll talk about today too is that is a third temple being built. And I I think if we start off with that. So like if someone comes up to you with that, those are your main questions, how would you respond with that? Well, the first thing that I would say is that we need to understand what the Bible says, not what our news source of choice says about it. there was a interesting interview recently with was it Tucker Carlson? And Ted Cruz. Yes. Where Ted Cruz was saying like his favorite Bible verse was those who bless Israel will be blessed, and those who curse Israel will be cursed. But he couldn't say the chapter and verse. Yep. But that's what led to his political decisions, which was just a little interesting. I'm not saying one is better than the other, but it's a little bit like okay, you hear these words, you hear these phrases, even at the top of power in our country, and we don't really have good grounding for it. So I would say the first one is could we agree if someone was coming to ask me this question over coffee or whatever, I think the first thing I would say is let's agree that the main source should be scripture. Yep. And if we can't agree on that, then we're kind of right, yeah. Like it's not gonna go much further. But if we can agree that this is a question that first comes from scripture that we need to wrestle with, we need to use scripture to interpret it. Yeah. So That would be the first thing I would say. The second thing I would say is that Christians have answered this question differently. Some very right, some very wrong, some in the gray. And it's one that we can debate and not try and win the argument. Yeah. But we can do it in a way that's again biblical, respectful, and represents Christ well. Yeah. So that would be like, okay, can we agree to those terms? Yeah. And then we can move forward. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so I there's comes that other question of why does this become such a big discussion in Revelations? I feel like everyone has like a strong opinion on it. though I mean, you know, Christians that really like dive into this, everyone kinda gets a strong opinion. So and we talked about how this is one of the most debated and talked about books in the maybe in the world. I think it's the most debated in the world. Yeah. So like what why do you think that is? Such a big discussion about revelations? the commentary that I was reading that really put it well was Revelation is the final book, the final chapter of the epic story of the world. So my favorite my favorite novel is East of Eden. Mm-hmm. And in the last part of the book of East of Eden, every scene feels like a callback to a different part of the book. If you were to just read the end of East of Eden, you'd be like, cool, cool story. But you completely miss all of the significance of the details and the subtlety and the context. So people read the book of Revelation because they think, this is God's game plan for destroying the world. And if I can basically get my hands on almost the way like a football team would say, if I can get my hands on the other team's playbook, then I can be prepared. Yeah. It's not meant to be that at all. What it is is a call back over and over and over to say these are the stories of scripture telling you. This is how it's coming to an end. Yeah. And the commentary that I was mentioning said almost every sentence calls back to something in the Old Testament and New Testament. But when you don't read it like that, it's up to your interpretation of what you think it means, not what the Bible makes. And then you get into all these big topics. Yeah. People go down rabbit trails and they're like they find themselves in ideas that could be not just wrong, but scary, where it's fear mongering or creates the opposite of the fruit of the spirit. So peace, joy. You know what I mean? You're like fear, trembling, hatred, racism, like all these things. Yeah. can you know what I mean? Like fear of whatever. Mm-hmm. And that's not the way that we're to go throughout the world. No. But if you're just reading it as it is based in your mind, that's where you're gonna go. That's where you're gonna go wrong. Yeah. Yeah. And I think outside influences also have yeah. People will totally use this book because they're like, I have cracked it. Because if everyone's trying to crack the code, yeah. Someone comes along and says I cracked the code, this is what it means, and then they can make it say whatever they want. Yeah. And they can use it however they want. Correct. And they can make connections that the bi the author never intended for it to be made. Nope. But they'll do it and then Often to their gain and others' loss. Yeah. All right. So let's let's dive into it. Let's start with the third temple. The third temple. Yeah. Why do I think a question that people have is why do some Christians, and maybe you are one that's listening, believe that a temple must be built. Yeah. And I'll back up even further for some people maybe who aren't as familiar with scripture. Yeah. Talk about the first two temples. Yeah. And what is a temple. So start with what is a temple. Mm-hmm. A temple was the meeting place for the people of God to have an encounter with God. It was where you could be in the presence of God, your sins were forgiven, where he dwelt on the earth in the Holy of Holies. So it was a specific building in on the other side of this massive curtain where one day a year the high priest could go in to the very like center of the presence of God, almost like walking to the center of the sun for one day, God allowed that and they would intercede for the people before the presence of God and often there was a sacrifice, if not always a sacrifice, made to say this sacrificial lamb will represent the punishment for the people's sins. Kill the lamb and then it absorbs God's people of their sin. Mm-hmm. So it was a way to say, please forgive us. Yeah. It was originally an idea that was handed down in Mount Sinai after the s the Exodus from Egypt. So they built a tabernacle. They lived in the desert. So what they had was not stone, but more cloth. Yeah. Then they settled in Jerusalem, built a temple on Mount Moriah, which is the same temple. Where Abraham was asked to sacrifice Isaac, but then he was spared. So again, that theme, it's a holy place. You would set you know put a temple at a high place. Yeah. They built one temple, King Solomon did, not David, but the third king of Israel. The first was Saul, who was a bad king. David replaces him, and then his son is the one who built the temple, Solomon. When Israel continued to rebel against God, his justice came against them, and they were destroyed by the Babylonians, and they destroyed the temple, carried the people off to Babylon, mm-hmm, and then it was Nehemiah was given a vision to rebuild the temple. And the king was favorable and said, Go back to Israel, go back to Jerusalem and rebuild a temple. Mm-hmm. So the temple begins to be rebuilt after their exile. It's then expanded under you know, during the time of Jesus, because we talked about that in season one in the book of Matthew, where my goodness, I'm blanking on the name right now. This is terrible. The Herod, King Herod the Great, expanded the temple. Yes. So it was still in construction during Jesus' day. Mm-hmm. Massive building, outer court, inner court, the holy of holies was also like a marketplace, which Jesus didn't like. Den of Thieves. No, yeah, exactly. He called it a Den of Thieves, but it was this massive structure. That's why all of his disciples were like, Look, master, look at these columns, look at these stones, it's so impressive. This is where we go to meet God. Yeah, that's the second temple. Third temple does not exist right now because you can't go to Jerusalem and see the temple as it was. It was destroyed in seventy AD by the Romans. Israel led like had a rebellion against Rome, and Rome doesn't like rebellions. Nope. So they did exactly what the Babylonians did. They came in and destroyed many of the people and destroyed the temple. They burned it down. we'll get into in a little bit, but Jesus predicted that would happen. Yep. So people believe for the end of the world to happen. There needs to be a third temple built in the same spot the first two were. Which means if we can get the right government in that place with the right contracts. Yep. I'm not even trying to be facetious, I'm just trying to say exactly what it is. Yep. Then we can put stone on top of stone and then once the capstone is placed, at some point, that's when Jesus can come back because the third temple has been built. That's an idea That comes from dispensationalism. Big word. You probably don't know it, but you know what it is. This dispensationalism is where we get the rapture. Yep. The modern view of honestly the end times that is kind of like you'll be sucked up into heaven and there's gonna be all these prophecies that lead up to it. We haven't got there yet, but dispensationalism is what gives us that. So they believe for the world to come to its end, there has to be a physical third temple. And they connect it to Book of Daniel, Jesus words in Matthew twenty-four, second Thessalonians, and of course Revelation. Yeah. So is that kind of the only view on the temple? No, it's not. It's actually a very modern view. Modern. Very like very new. As far as I mean, like if you want to think about like Christian theology is two thousand years old. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like it goes back to Jesus. Like now here's how we understand how Jesus fulfills the old testament. So you could say You know, that's when theology Christian theology started with Jesus. Yeah. so if you took two thousand years of Christian theology, dispensationalism is like a blip. Yeah. It's like a hundred and fifty years old, not even. Yeah. So it's and it's very American. Very very American. We haven't got there yet, but I'm not a strong believer in dispensationalism because it's very American. Yeah. It doesn't have a lot of context in scripture and history. Many Christians, though, throughout history, including those who started the Reformation, see the temple differently. This third temple that's talked about. It's talked about as a third temple. It's talked about, but it's not a physical one. That's not how Christians have understood it. So how so though, with it? Yep. So the New Testament, especially in the Gospels, Jesus talks about the kingdom of God is here. Mm-hmm. He we talked about that all in Matthew. Over and over. He says, The kingdom of God is here. Yeah. He's talking about himself. Mm-hmm. And at one point when he's having a showdown with the Pharisees, he says, One greater than the temple is here. Mm-hmm. Okay, that's interesting. You know what I mean? Like because one greater than the temple is here. Jesus said that. Just as he said, I'm the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father except through me. Yeah. You could Chalk those phrases up as a crazy man. Yeah. If he doesn't come back from the dead. Yeah. If he comes back from the dead, then you gotta listen to what he has to say. Yeah. Because he is who he says he is. Yep. So he says I'm greater than the temple. We could all agree on that, right? Like that's what the Bible teaches. Yeah. Whether you believe it or not, that's what the Bible says. That's what it says. Okay. So if we can all agree on that, Jesus calls himself the true temple in John chapter 2. The church in Book of First Corinthians, chapter three, Paul refers to it as the church is now God's temple. Yes. Remember the context of Paul. Paul he refers to himself as like basically the Jew of Jews, a Pharisee of Pharisees. He is as Jewish as they come, like he is a Pharisee, he is a leader, he was so zealous to protect the Jewish faith that he killed Christians. Yeah. In when he was a leader of the country. Yeah, right. Like they they dropped their cloaks at his feet. Yeah. when they went to do the first first stoning, the first martyr. Yeah. He was the one who oversaw it. So top dog when he has an encounter with Jesus, that's when things begin to change. And a lot of times Christians think that he went and just immediately started writing letters and playing churches. There's three year period we don't hear from Paul. Yeah. Like after his conversion, like when he's with the early church before he starts traveling around. It's him Processing and training and rethinking all of his theology, and it's like now it all clicks. Yeah. And this man, I I cannot emphasize enough a the genius of Paul. yeah. The genius of Paul. Yeah. And Jesus is the missing piece of everything. And this man says, The church is now God's temple. Yeah. And the church is made up of ordinary people. From every tribe, nation, and tongue who come to Jesus and accept him into their life, that when I have an encounter with you, I it's as if I'm having an encounter with God. Being in the presence of another Christian, obviously in the right context and conversation, can be a meeting place to meet God. Yeah. That's what Paul is saying. That's the spirit of God moving in us. Yeah. so that And then he says it again in First Corinthians six, three chapters later, individually we are temples of the Holy Spirit. Yeah. So that presence of God is in us. Is not in a physical building, it's in us. Us. It's in sub Saharan African believers. It's in the underground church in China. It's in Iranian believers. It's in North American Protestant believ i it's in everyone who calls on the name of Jesus. Yeah. That makes them Lord. Yeah. That's where the temple is, is Peter calls it living stones. Together we are building a living temple. Yeah. And so the New Testament seems to expand the idea of the temple. Would you say that? I would totally agree because the focus isn't the physical location. it's a person. Yeah. Which again makes us different from Islam. Yeah. Islam, you go to Mecca, a physical place. Yep. Christians don't have I mean people want to go to Israel. I I'd love to go to Israel. You know what I mean? I'd love to go to Jerusalem, but I don't have to to be in the presence of whatever. I can experience the presence of Jesus Christ in a homeless shelter as much as I can in church, as much as I can in my kitchen, as much as in Jerusalem. Yeah. Like that's what the spirit does because God is everywhere in all of us who call on the name of Jesus. Amen. So it's so it's less focused on a place, more focused on a person. Person. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And this seems like another example of Revelation's building on the old testament instead of replacing it. Yes. Which so yes. So in some ways the first temple wasn't a physical one. What you it it wasn't wasn't the So in Eden, in the Garden of Eden, it says that Adam and Eve walked with God. Yes. Like just this beautiful idea. Like there's nothing that separated. Like God's like, hey, you want to go check out the palm trees over there? Sounds good. You want to go check out the lagoon? I don't know. Like they just walked with God. There was no separation. There was no is God listening? Yes, it was heaven on earth. They were united as one. Yeah. Then the fall happens. So how is God going to be able to be in the presence of people? This is the tabernacle. Yeah. In The desert and then the temple in Jerusalem, the second one being rebuilt, and now God dwells in the hearts of his people, and we go out into the world and expand the kingdom wherever we go. So Jesus is the one who moves it from being a physical place b and he's bringing us back to the new heaven, a new earth, a new Eden. Yeah. Yeah. And I I think with all of this, especially talking about revelations and Looking around the world today, there's a word that gets used a lot. And that one got used recently in a there was a roast of Kevin Hart. Yeah. And Shane Gillis like called Chelsea Handler a Zionist. And I was like That word. That's weird. Like what like what a like this was a roast. Zionism. Yeah. And you're like so it's in pop culture. Like that's what it yeah. Like it's in Hollywood. It's yeah, you mean like all over. I mean people protest with signs with it now too. Melissa and I were in Chicago for vacation. Yeah. Two weeks ago, that's why we didn't have a podcast episode. And one of the places we were just walking around across the street was a protest. No Zionism in America and like free Palestine, you know, all that. And I was like, I guarantee you though, those protesters weren't doing that because they're trying to staunchly defend Orthodox Christianity. Yeah. So let's talk about it. They just use that phrase and attack it. Yeah. Let's so I mean basically what you're saying is they might not understand what that word means. They just know they don't like it. Yeah. So what does it actually mean? Yeah. I want to just find this exact quote in this book that I was reading through again. The book is called What Should We Think About Israel? It has multiple different authors and Rabbi Tuvia who led our Seder Meal Seder Meal is the one who put it in my hands and his chapter was was absolutely brilliant. So Zionism. So it started in the late eighteen hundreds, because of renewed persecution of the Jewish people simply because they were Jewish. So the idea, especially Europe has a very bad, bad history of anti-Semitism. You don't say. Yeah. Just as the way America has a bad, bad history of racism that goes back to, you know, slavery. Europe has this, you know, this in their history. Probably it I mean it it predates the Reformation. Mm-hmm. But one of the worst displays of it was during the Black Plague. That when the Black Death was going through Europe, you know, the bubonic plague, kills one third of you know, people, which is millions of people. Yeah. The first ones who were attacked because they thought it was a curse from God were the Jewish people. Like whole towns were killed, not Because they had the bubonic plague and they're they were like, it's your fault. Like you haven't repented and turned to God, so we're gonna murder you. Like, think about that. Bible believing Christians took up the sword to kill thousands, if not millions, of Jewish people during the Black Death. Because this is how far back it goes. Yeah. Martin Luther is on the scene and he did a lot of great things for the church. Yeah. He did horrible things when he describes the Jewish people. I I had to do some reading of on him in seminary. I'll never forget having to read one of his letters to a a local church that he was kinda helping oversee and he was saying like they should just all be drowned. Tough. You mean tough. Tough stuff. That like he's like they're they're the most unrepentant, evil, just every which way. So much so that Adolf Hitler, when he wrote Mein Kampf in a prison cell, quoted Luther multiple times, trying to justify this as a Christian idea. Again, I love theology, but I love Jesus more. Theologians make mistakes in how they live their lives at times. I like to believe in the perfect one. Yeah, exactly. So you kinda have to sort through And take you can't just be behold into one. You have to take all of them and say, okay, they were very, very strong over here, they're very, very strong over here, and together. But yeah, so like i i it it's bad. Eighteen hundreds though, in Europe there's this idea and it was a Parisian he's from Austria, but he wrote for a newspaper in Paris. His name was Theodore Hersell. He was the one who first came up with the idea of coming up with a modern area where Jewish people could live and not essentially be bothered or persecuted. Yeah. So this was the eighteen eighties. you fast forward, you have a world war, rise of anti Semitism in Germany to blame them, like, this is the problem, among others. Yep. But big was the Jewish people. People wonder why did Germans flip on the Jewish people so fast? It didn't take much convincing. No. It was already there. It was in the bloodstream. Hitler is just the one who came along and said, We all know who it is and they're Yeah, we kinda do. Yeah. So like if we're calling a spade a spade, that's what it really was. That's what history teaches. It's just ugly. Yeah. now it went to the worst extremes we've ever seen in human history. But that idea of Zionism comes back saying, Do you see what we've been saying? We need a place to live where we can be left alone. Mm-hmm. Modern Israel started in nineteen forty eight after World War Two. Yeah. Which has been a very difficult decision. Yeah. Right, wrong or indifferent. Mm-hmm. I it is the center of world tension and conflict. Yeah. Like would you s would you classify that there's d different types of Zionism of like political or worldly or anything like that? Yeah, I would say like Zionism, this idea gets Becomes a political football after a while. Much like everything. Yeah. Like everything does. Yeah. But there is a way to look at Zionism and say, okay, they can never do anything wrong. Yeah. Because they've endured so much. Yeah. I I personally don't think that's biblical. No. The standard of ethics don't change from one generation to the next because the per former generation was horribly persecuted. I will never take anything away from that. Yeah. But that doesn't mean that their children then rise up and can do whatever they want and God doesn't care. Yeah. That's nowhere to be found in scripture. That's like, okay, you get a hall pass because your parents endured suffering. That that's not a biblical idea. Instead, rather God, as we've talked about, transforms our suffering and we're called to live differently. Yeah. So that would but the political side of Zionism is saying, again, it goes with that dispensationalist I know I'm throwing a lot of phrases out, but just hang with me. idea that if Israel can dominate that area, that land again, then the temple can be built, then Jesus can come back. And I'm oversimplifying this, but just for the sake of time. So that's why people will be Zionists and they will defend Israel no matter what they're doing. Yeah. Others will then push back against that because they see some of the evil happening and they're like, well that's not okay. Why do they get carte blanche? Yeah. So going back to like that Ted Cruz that thing that you said earlier about doing it, but what you're saying here, which I agree with, is being a Christian doesn't automatically mean that you support every political decision made by Israel. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Christians disagree on whether the formation of Israel was a fulfillment of a prophecy. Some say absolutely, some say not at all. I I don't have a strong opinion either way. I I really don't. maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Yep. I I don't know. but I wouldn't go to the mat with someone who's like, it absolutely is. I'd be like, okay. Or someone's like, it absolutely is. Okay. Like I'm very open on this one to saying perhaps. But but the important thing for believers to remember is the New Testament Centers God's promise in Jesus alone. And salvation has always been by faith, not through genealogy and blood. because that's why you see Ruth in the Old Testament. Yeah. Rahab. Yeah. Like there are Gentiles listed in Jesus' genealogy who are considered holy and pure. And then also in Jesus' genealogy, you see horrible kings who are seen as wicked and evil. So that it doesn't automatically give them a pass. It's all about faith. And Jew and Gentile alike are both invited into God's family through Jesus. So, but to answer your question about Christians understanding support for Israel, again, I would say if your first news source is either Fox or CNN to have formed your opinion, it needs to stop. It needs to be the Bible. Yeah. And then you can go back and interpret what the different outlets are saying and say partially, partially, partial. You know what I mean? Like that's the thing is no one has a f full grasp on the right or the left on scripture. Well, I think there's been a problem of people watching CNN or Fox News, either one. Mm-hmm. And they're taking that lens and then they're reading this through that lens. Through that lens. But it should be opposite of you watch that through the lens of the Bible. Yes. Like that's your lens. That's that's not you're not reading this through the lens of that. To be honestly a Christian in America, you should be s pseudo politically homeless. Yeah. Like you shouldn't be too tied to either party, honestly. Like you'd say this one lines more, but like that's where you're trying to vote your conscience to be an educated voter who's educated primarily through a lens of scripture and then looking at the world through the lens of scripture, not the other way around. Yeah. Like the the church should be critical of our leaders. So not you know the other way around where like, Well, I defend them even though they don't do what the Bible says. Like no, no. Scripture holds our leaders to accountability. Yeah. Every king was held to that standard, including David. Yeah. And yeah. Yeah. So and so with that, like when we're talking about lenses and stuff. Yep. How should Christians view modern day Israel? Yeah. Yeah. So the person to turn to, of course, is Jesus. And Jesus had a lot to say on the subject where the one that comes to mind is during his last days on earth, I think it's after Palm Sunday, if I'm not mistaken, he goes up onto the Mount of Olives, overlooks Jerusalem, and says he weeps. Yeah. He says, Jerusalem, Jerusalem, how I've longed to gather you like a mother hen and like but you who kill the prophets. His heart breaks for them. Mm-hmm. just as we talked about season one, the the people he seems to get the angriest with almost to get their attention are the religious leaders. Mm-hmm. but it's not from hate or indifference. It's out of love and compassion to say, Please come to me and Stop trusting in your genealogy or your bloodline because that's what he says. He's like God could raise those stones to become sons of Abraham if he wants them to. So quit trusting in those other attributes. Paul picks up that train of thought, and for those of you maybe still reading through the scriptures, when the church comes through after Jesus Resurrection, he's ascended to heaven, the Holy Spirit comes and it fills 120 believers in the upper room, and they go out and they start preaching. And Peter gives an amazing message. And many people in Israel do repent and turn to Jesus, Savior and Lord. Then there comes a turn where God tells the disciples, specifically Peter through a vision, this is for all people. Yeah. And so they have these internal conversations and prayers. And Peter really focuses on the Jewish people. Mm-hmm. And you know, Paul, even though he was a Pharisee, is sent to the Gentiles. But they're working together. Yeah. Like they have their disagreements at times, but they're working together for the same mission. Yeah. So Paul picks it up as describing hey, as someone who was born Jewish ethnically. And religiously, but now I'm telling you the gospel of Jesus. Here's how we can understand this. It's the first tension inside the church. First tension outside the church was Christians in Rome. Yeah. How how do we in other, you know, you know, how do we understand this? Yeah. Tension within the church was between the Jewish people and the Gentiles. You see that all throughout the New Testament, specifically in the letters of Paul. Yeah. Romans though is considered to be like if you can understand Romans, which is a big ask, th it's like understanding this the spine of the New Testament. Like everything's contained in there. So chapters nine, ten, and eleven really talk about this a lot. Very central. Specifically chapter eleven, where Paul describes, you know, hey, Gentiles, some of you are getting arrogant because you think That God has replaced Israel with you. Like you're getting a little arrogant over here. And he says, if God didn't spare, he uses a metaphor, the natural limbs of a tree to graft you on, what makes you think he can't remove you as well? It's always about faith in Jesus alone. Now you might be coming from a a Jewish background, you might be coming from a Gentile background. But Jesus is able to use all of this, and that's why they have to come up with a code of morality and ethics to say we all submit to the standard, these beliefs. This is what ties Christians together. Whether they're because now we don't so much fight over Jewish or Gentile, we fight over I shouldn't even say fight. Our disagreements tend to say what culture you come from, language you speak, socioeconomic class. Yeah. I think it was Martin Luther King says the most divided time in America is Sunday morning. Yeah. You go to black church, white church, Latino church, eight ye a whatever. Yeah. And the gospel is meant for all of us to see each other as equal brothers and sisters, even though we have different culture and context and language. So what Paul is saying, to kind of summarize it, is the gospel remains is I'm quoting him to the Jew first and then to the Gentiles. The faith that we have is a faith that started with the Jewish people. Yeah. Point blank. End of story. Yeah. Like you it star they are our spiritual parents in many, many ways. It started through Abraham, and now here we are. Mm-hmm. So to completely just turn and say, I pray to Jesus, but I hate the Jewish people would be like, you know he was Jewish, right? Mm-hmm. He is the Messiah prophesied in Jewish scriptures. Mm-hmm. Jesus would not welcome that attitude at all. So all anti Semitism must be ridd completely out of the church. We must reject both anti Semitism and the idea that ethnicity alone saves us. It's Jesus alone. Yeah. Jesus alone. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And it seems like people often become fascinated with Israel and kind of miss the point. Revelations. Would you agree with that? I would agree. A hundred percent. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. It's it it's it's because it's such a okay, like I was ten when nine eleven happened. Yeah. And You're old. I yeah, I know. I but I can remember as a ten year old Like everyone has that where were you moment in their life. My dad says his was JFK getting shot, our mine was 9-11. But I can remember as a ten year old asking my dad, like every time he came home from work, did they get them yet? Yeah. Like did they get the people? Because I knew there was a war, but my ten-year-old brain, I don't know what that means. So I I just like every day it probably just annoyed the crap out of him, but it felt like for months, I like, did they get him? Did they get him? Did they get him? Did they get him? And and finally he was like, It's been a mess for a while. Yeah. Like kind of the way you try and describe it to a ten year old. Yeah. So revelation comes along or the that interpretation of revelation we're like, it's such chaos in that part of the world. Can we just call it what it is? It just seems overwhelming, especially as Americans separated by an ocean and it's a cultural language we don't understand. And it's a it's another religion, it's a theocracy in many places that we we want to assign meaning. To this pain and suffering and confusion and questions. And so I think it becomes comforting. I get it, is I don't think it's a sin, but it becomes comforting to be like, it's okay because this means we're closer to that end time. Because it's specifically talked about this in chapter verse. When really that's not what Revelation's saying. No. What Revelation is saying is Jesus is in control. Mm-hmm. The world is a mess. Chaos. There's chaos. The world has rebelled against God and his ways, including you and including me. And now we have been saved by Jesus. We need to be faithful to Jesus no matter what we're enduring. It's different from the first century as it is from the twenty first century. Jesus is at the center, not an earthly nation. No. Jesus says, I don't even know. when the time is going to be. Yeah. I can he can give all these details, but he's like, I yeah, I don't have that one. Yeah. So when we begin to think, if only this, that's what makes me really like that logical leap is what prevents me from thinking of physical temple is what's required. Because then that means we know. Yeah. And Jesus says no one knows. No one knows. Like it, but if we're like we have a building project and we can put a permit on it, then all of a sudden we've taken that timeline out of God's hands and placed it into a building committee. Kinda. Like you know what I mean? Like and you're like, Yeah, w wait, we're not in charge. Yeah. That's not our job. No. Like I can build a building but not be faithful to Jesus. Yeah. I don't think that's the goal. Yeah. Think the goal is to be faithful to Jesus, recognizing that I'm building a kingdom that looks different than the world's kingdom. And I don't know when it's gonna happen, but I'm gonna be ready either way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think just a word that's been we see littered throughout here is throughout the Bible is that word Zion. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep. What is Zion? Zion originally referred to Jerusalem. Yeah. it becomes a symbol. It it's again one of those that comes off with many different meanings. Like there's a psalm where David is running from his son who rebels against him and he's like I I look to Zion, I turn my hope to Zion. Well, it's not that he's turning his hope to being like, if I can just get on top of that building that or my that mountain, then God will spare me. It's yeah what it represents, which is God's faithfulness, where God's dwelling is. Hebrew twelve says believers have already come to Mount Zion. We step boldly into the presence of God. Because Jesus is our high priest and our intercessor. So like Revelation pictures the redeemed standing on Mount Zion with the lamb. But it's a g it it maybe it's a literal Mount Zion. Maybe maybe that's what'll happen after everything is burned up that that's where we'll go. Perhaps. Perhaps. Again, I'm not going to the mat either way on that. Yeah. But what I am going to the mat on is saying we shouldn't focus so much on the geographic as we should focus on the person of Jesus. That's that's the difference. It ultimately points beyond geography and creation towards what God is doing in the world and how Jesus has come into the broken mess of my life, your life, the world, and is putting it back together. Mm-hmm. So yeah. Amen. Alright, and so in closing here, I think the big one. Mm-hmm. If someone asked asked you, mm-hmm, should Christians be watching for a third temple? Kind of bringing it all the way back, what would you say to that? I would say Yes, but not in the way you think. Mm-hmm. I would say our hope isn't in a future building. I think our hope is being built in us. Yeah. In those who call upon the name of the Lord. Yeah. because the difference is if I need to get into the presence of God because I'm going through a divorce or I lost my job or whatever. No pastor Hopefully would say, You need to buy a plane ticket to Jerusalem. They would say, You need to be in prayer. You need to get alone with God. Well, how is that possible? Because other religions, you have to go to the holy place. But pastors everywhere would say the holy place is the person. Go to the person. Go go into the presence of God. Go to Jesus. So our hope isn't a future building. Our hope is in the risen Christ. That He's making all things new. Whether discussing Israel or prophecy or end times. The question Revelation continues to ask is are we faithful following the Lamb of God? Yeah. So that that would be my idea is instead of being hyper focused on a third building or if it's an end time prophecy, we're already in the end times. Yeah. We are. We have been for two thousand years. Yeah. Since that first Easter morning. We've been in the end times. I thought the secret out. Yeah. But like the thing is being in the end times in the first century. Mm-hmm. especially after some believers start dying, because Paul had to write a letter about that in First Thessalonians. when when Christians started dying, Jesus hadn't come back yet in the first century. But nowhere does Paul say, All right, because we're in the end times, start stockpiling food. Yeah. Nowhere does he say in the end times, now now be vigilant, buy a bunch of guns, and don't trust your neighbor. Now that we're in the end times, make sure you Devote yourself to that political movement or this political movement because that's gonna No. He says, We're in the end times. And these are people who just saw Jesus. I mean, like they saw him with their physical eyes. They're pumped up. Yeah. Yeah. Their movement was because we're in the end times, we're gonna tell people about Jesus. We're going to go to work, we're gonna raise our families to know Jesus, we're gonna love our enemies, we're gonna sacrifice for our neighbors. And we're gonna be faithful in our practice of gathering for worship and prayer and scripture reading. That's how they approach the end times. Mm-hmm. Almost like what they were doing is preparing themselves for eternity. Yeah. What we'll be doing in eternity. Yeah. Not so I'll just say like paranoid driven and fear driven. Yeah. The end times are not a bad thing. No. Yes, childbirth hurts. But you go through childbirth because you get a child. It seems like again, Revelation gets twisted to say, let's obsess over the pain of childbirth. and at some point a baby comes. It's the opposite. Yeah. You focus on the baby, like when the baby's being like you paint the nursery, you have diaper parties, you have baby showers, you you you pray for that child. You come feel the kick. Like there's so much more time and energy focused on w on who's coming. Then like when Melissa was pregnant, never would I be like, gosh, are you just freaking out about this painful birth? Never. I was like, How are you feeling? Did you feel a kick? Yeah. What's God doing in your heart? And if we, you know, how is Hannah today? Yeah. We talked about her. We didn't talk about the pain, or we talked about Austin. We didn't talk about the pain. No. But it seems like Christians flip it. They talk only about the pain and Jesus comes at some point. Yeah. It's the opposite. It's the opposite. It's joy. It's peace. It's goodness. We should hope for it. We know it's going to be painful, but that's not the focus. The focus is we're getting closer. we're getting close. Like, yes, of course we're getting closer. But we're excited to get closer. Yeah. A lot of times when people talk about the end times, they're fearful. Even Christians. No, like No, no, no. It's the opposite. Yep. Like if if someone is again, 'cause it ends with a wedding scene. If someone in was engaged, you know, we do a lot of weddings around here. You know, we're both at that age where people ask us to their weddings. Yep. But if someone's like, my gosh, the wedding's getting closer and they're dreading it, you'd be like, You shouldn't be getting married. Let's talk a little more. What are you talking about? Like you shouldn't be getting married. But that's how Christians think about it. When really we should be like, We're closer to the wedding day of the lamb. Are you kidding me? That's amazing. That should spark joy in us. That, it yeah, it's it's painful now. Like I'm enduring, but I'm going to a wedding. I'm going to a new birth. man, what can cancer do when I have hope like that? Yeah. You know what I mean? Like that's where Christians need to flip it. We've just been so indoctrinated with fear and paranoia. And I'm like, that's not the spirit. No, that's the opposite. Leave it to Satan to take something good and beautiful and twist it. Twist it. To make it scary. Yeah. So he's done a good job at that. He has. And like that's thing like we don't want to water it down. No. We have to preach it. Yes. The reality is without Christ it is scary. Yeah. Very, very scary. Very scary. But with Christ, there's nothing to be afraid of. Yeah. Nothing. Nothing at all in this world. so with that, we're gonna be closing out today. do you have any last thing you want to trust Jesus. There it is. Trust Jesus in in the Father's timing. Yeah. Lean on the Spirit. Yeah. That's how you endure. Amen to that. So We thank you for tuning in wherever you're coming from. we are so grateful to get to do this and can't wait to see you next week. So be back then.