Chase: Welcome back to the Point Church podcast. I'm here with Pastor Sam as we are still diving in through our series through Revelations. And today we're diving into one of the most debated topics in Christianity. Mm-hmm. The rapture. Yep. Right. And you know, if you grew up in church, you've probably heard. About believers that were kind of like suddenly like disappearing, tribulation, the Antichrist and and kind of that left behind series. It might not even be believers, it might be in pop culture, just good people. Yeah, like in movies and everything. Yeah. But one other question is, where did those ideas come from? And I think a question off of that is, did that early church believe that? And actually what does the Bible really teach about it? So Sam, before we get into all these different views, I w I really want to hear What do Christ Christians actually agree on about this? Yeah, absolutely. Christians have more than we agree on in this topic than disagree on. Of course, now we tend to focus more on what we disagree on, but here's what we all agree on. To be an Orthodox Christian as in a Bible-believing Christian, you need to agree on a few things. One, Jesus is coming back again. Two, he's gonna come back in a physical body. Three, The dead will be raised in Christ. Four, believers will be gathered to him. Five, evil will fully and finally be judged, and finally, God's kingdom will be fully established when Jesus comes back. Yeah. So if we can agree on those six things, no matter what denomination or Bible version you read from, if you can agree on that, you are a Bible believing Christian. Mm-hmm. Yeah. But I want to clear up something right away. Right, that word rapture that we have heard, like we said in movies, we've heard in church, we've heard just other people saying. Right. That word though isn't actually in most English Bibles. So where does it come from? Yeah. So the debate isn't whether Jesus is coming back, the debate is how and when he's coming back and the word rapture, or at least the idea of rap the idea of rapture is in the Bible. Yeah. But the word is not, just as the word Trinity is not in the Bible, but the idea is. So it comes from First Thessalonians four, which fun fact is the first letter that Paul wrote to the early churches. So there could have been a world in which, you know, that would have been the only letter that we had from Paul, and it would still be considered scripture. Yep. But he writes to the Thessalonian church answering this question: What will happen when Jesus comes back? They had the same question then that we do now. So what he does in chapter four is he talks about we will be caught up, seized up, will be snatched away in order to meet him in the clouds. In the fourth century, I believe it was the fourth or the fifth century, there was an early church father named Jerome who translated the Bible into Latin, known as the Vulgate. And he used the word I'm gonna have to try and pronounce this correctly, Rapimur. And so that's where we get the word rapture from. When he translated First Thessalonians 4, that word caught up or sees that we have in the Bible, that's where it translated from. So it's from Latin, from a translation, from Jerome. It's now before everyone's like, it's a translation of a translation. No. We can trace it out. Same idea, but trying to make it readable for the modern audience. So Christians aren't inventing the word. The question is, what does Paul mean when he said that? What did he mean versus what we take it to mean? Yeah. And so did the early church, the earliest Christian, right, believe in a secret pre tribulation rapture. Right. Let's also define the the word tribulation. 'Cause sometimes we hear that word, not as often as rapture, but we're like that feels like a Bible word. yeah, they You know, like it's like when you hear it, so tribulation. Yeah. Think of it as trouble. Yep. Okay. Difficult times. Mm-hmm. So the question that you're asking is Did the early Christians believe that there would be a secret taking away, seizing before bad times start? No, they did not believe that. What the early Christians believed and consistently talked about was that as Jesus ascended into heaven in a public way, like there were hundreds of people that watched this happen, that he will come back. In a public way. That's one of the main differences of Christianity is it's a public faith. It's not a secret faith. It's not like, someone in a cave had these interactions with God and now we have to believe it. It's public. People saw it. There were witnesses. So as he ascended in ways that other people can attest to, he's gonna come back the same way in a physical body, and there will be one resurrection of the dead, and those who are living will be transformed. Paul talks about this as well. And then one final judgment. So it's all gonna be one event. When Jesus comes back, is on judgment day to separate the sheep from the goat, to separate those who are in Christ and those who are not. So when you read the Apostle and the Nicene Creed, which we do now on Communion Sunday at our church, we read and say loud, He will come again to judge the living and the dead. So What did you do with the time you had on earth? And what are you doing with the time you have on earth before he comes back? There's no distinction between a secret coming and a later return that's like, you know, now is the real return. That's not a thing. That's not what the early church expected. That's not what they believed. They expected suffering. Their focus wasn't about escaping suffering and trouble in the world. Their focus was how do we remain faithful through the trouble of this world. Yeah. And so basically you're saying Christians have always believed that Jesus is coming back. Absolutely. So the question isn't if it's is it one climactic event that marks the end of the world as we know it, yeah, judgment day, or is it two separate stages? That's where things have gotten confusing. Early Christians believed it was one time, one event. Yeah. And so if that pre tribulation view wasn't common Right, throughout church history, which you just explained. Where did it come from? Right. Because I believe a lot of people nowadays that's kind of what they hear and know. Yeah. This idea of a rapture pre tribulation, first of all, is a very American belief. It is not popular in other parts of the world. Most of the world does not adhere to this. Even today. So we have to one, acknowledge that. Two it wasn't even it didn't exist until the mid eighteen hundreds. It started in the old west with a he was a he was a brother in the faith. You know, I don't want to disparage him by any means, even if we have disagreements, but his name was John Nelson Darby. And he was an Irish Bible teacher who was I I believe like almost what we would consider the Midwest, not quite, you know, settling the old west, and he was a leader of the Plymouth Brethren movement and he loved scripture. And he wanted to understand biblical prophecy. And as he studied the Bible, he developed a theological system, which is what theologians do, how to interpret the Bible. And his was known as dispensationalism. Which is dispensationalism at its core divides the story of the Bible, the story of history into different dispensations, or maybe think of it as different eras. Now we're in this era. We were in that era, this era, that era. So He he was saying like we're in this time that time. That's how he was trying to describe what was going on. Yeah. And so I think a question off of that is how did one Bible teacher's ideas become so influential? Where we're talking about the United States like how? Like we don't quote John Nelson Darby in the same way that we quote like a C. S. Lewis or a Tolkien. You know what mean? Or Billy Graham. Like so but yet his ideas, his teachings are so prominent. So He had a follower, like someone who attended his congregation or was just under his influence, his teaching, named C.I. Schofield. In 1909, C.I. Schofield, he released a Bible known as the Schofield Reference Bible. Now, he didn't make changes to the Bible, but he added his notes on the side of the scripture that you could say, hey, if you don't understand this confusing passage, Here's what we believe for it to be. So it was like the first study Bible. And that was new. That was revolutionary at the time. Study Bibles didn't exist. You just had the Bible, which you can imagine was amazing that you could one read it. It was in a language you can understand, but also could lead to a lot of interpretations that might be wrong. Yeah. They were trying to use this as a way to help people understand and avoid heresy, but it also push forward this idea of dispensationalism and it led to Bible colleges using this Bible and seminaries, the biggest one being Dallas Theological Seminary. How Lindsay used the Schofield Bible that he had been given in Sunday school. That's the other thing churches bought them for their Sunday school and for classrooms. So they're reading the Schofield Bible with this man's notes all around the world or all around the country. How Lindsay, The Late Great Planet Earth, was one of the most popular books ever written. Actually led to the satanic panic of the eighties because of some of the ideas he pushed forward. Again, I I'm not trying to pass judgment one way or another. No. But a lot of what we see now has its origin roots there. And then later was updated and entitled The Left Behind series. New author but the same ideas repackaged. Yeah. Then those got spread into movies and pop culture and Honestly, that's what has informed people's imagination of the rapture more than scripture is left behind series or different versions of it. But historically, that's not the case of this. That's not how Christians and church history understood the end of the world for two thousand years. Yeah, like this that's th that was an even like I said, even now. It's an American view of the world. And we can get into all that, but in my mind, just in a nutshell, I think it's very appealing because one, it's of American origin, but it appeals to American culture of if there's a way to avoid unnecessary pain and suffering, Jesus is just gonna take me away from all this. That that is appealing to people who are pursuing the good life. Yeah. Whereas if you were trying to tell that to someone in what blanking on the country right now that's been in Nigeria. Nigeria. Yeah. Like where pastors are being killed. Yeah. Hey, are you just waiting 'til Jesus comes back and you can avoid all this? Mm-hmm. They'd be like, What are you talking about? Like he said we would have trouble in this world. It's almost like in the West we are so comfortable with the idea of not having pain that the threat of any pain, we're like, Jesus take me away. Yeah. You know, it it really like kind of messes with us. We don't have a healthy understanding of how to endure suffering and pain. So if if the teaching comes around saying, Hey, just just hunker down and Jesus can take you away from all the bad stuff is very appealing. And then you don't go out into the world. You don't go you don't go out into darkness. You stay paralyzed in your little bubble. Yeah. And so I think too this arises with the question of if this if it's newer, does that automatically make it wrong? No. No by no means. No, no, no, no, no. truth isn't determined simply by age. It's not like There weren't heresies in the first century. There were. That's why they had to remove letters that were floating around saying, this is true about Jesus. No, it's not. You made it up. Like they that was going all the way back to, you know, just a few decades after the resurrection. Our authority is always scripture. Yeah. But history helps us look back and say, Have these ideas already been tested? Yeah. Have we already done this? And why do we need to repeat the process if we can just say, they already proved that to be wrong? That was already determined to be a heresy or a lie or a falsehood. So it's not that you can't discover something new that's true, but most likely we've had 2,000 years of buildup to say this is the strongest conclusion we've come to on certain topics. And so we talked about that, but if most Christians didn't believe in a Pre-tribulation rapture. Right, like taking away from the bad stuff. What did they believe then? Right. So there is what's known as we and we won't have to get into all this pre tribulation. Yep. Jesus takes you away before all the bad stuff happens. Post tribulation, Jesus takes you away after all the bad stuff happens. or a version of like Jesus takes you away middle of the way. but what the early Christians believed was what's known as millennialism, which means we are in the millennium that is talked about in Revelation where there is pain, where there is disease, where there is war, and where there is violence happening all around us, like there are earthquakes, like we're experiencing that now. We're in the tribulation. I'm air quoting to say everything that we thought we'd be avoiding is already here. Or already enduring it. The world is broken as it is. Yeah, and I think that's probably unfamiliar to a lot of people. Yeah. So can you explain that view just a little bit more? Yeah. First off, the name is a little confusing, but millennial doesn't mean Christ isn't here and reigning. It means that the thousand years talked about in Revelation chapter twenty are understood symbolically, just as Peter says, remember to God. A thousand years is like a day and a day is like a thousand years. That our timeline is different than his timeline. And he is waiting for everyone to come to repentance. Yes. Just as Jesus didn't start smiting people who rejected him. That they're even his own family didn't accept Jesus during his ministry outside of his mother. Many came to faith after his resurrection because he gave them time to repent. So he's doing the same thing on a global scale. What is happening though is that Christ defeated the evil powers in the wor in the cosmos on the cross. Christus Victor. We talked about that on Sunday. You can go back and listen to that sermon. That he tied up the strong man. And now the gospel, the message of Jesus and the church is able to advance into the world. and Satan's powers have been so limited that he's able to. that the gospel message is able to go into places that would have been unthinkable. Yes, they're still met with resistance, that there's still government officials and policies that are, you know, doing the bidding, if you will, of the serpent. But look at how even the more resistance the church gets, it seems to thrive more in that place. Why is it that in the Middle East the underground church is thriving? Thriving. Why is it that in China, where it's still legal to be a Christian, it's thriving and it's the fastest growing church in the world? Right. Because even though they can resist, they're no match for the power of Jesus happening. So we are living in what's known as the time between the times. The time started at the crucifixion and Jesus' resurrection. That brought in a new time. We don't know how long it's gonna go for. But for as much time as we're given after Easter Sunday, until Jesus comes back, the mission is go to the ends of the earth and make disciples of all nations, baptize them in the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, teaching them to obey everything I've commanded you to do. So according to that understanding, we're already in the millennium. Exactly. Exactly. Then how do our millennial Christians understand the tribulation? They understand the tribulation as Not a surprise. It's to be expected. Jesus said, In this world you will have trouble. In this life you will have trouble, but take heart, I've overcome the world. In the very beginning of Rebu Revelation, chapter one, it says, I, John, your brother and companion in the tribulation you're experiencing now, the seven churches in Asia Minor. Yeah. We talked about this. They weren't like, man, when are things gonna get bad? They were actively being persecuted by the Roman things. Things are bad. Yeah, things are bad. We're being tied up and lit on fire. Are you serious? Like w we're waiting for it to get worse. No, they knew they were in the end times. They knew they were in trouble. Yeah. And they were not focused on running away from the darkness and hiding. They were focused on shining their light even if it killed them. Because their goal wasn't to escape the pain. Their goal was to shine the light of Jesus in the darkness. Amen. So pivoting a little bit though, one thing we've noticed throughout this series is that Revelation constantly, constantly, reaches back into the Old Testament. Absolutely. Yep. It's the well, it's the conclusion of all the points that we've been talking about in the story. So think about it like this that God's people have always experienced trouble and pain. Yeah. Always. Like just as everyone has. But God's people are not exempt from it. Israel suffered in Egypt in slavery before the Exodus. They even suffered in the desert afterwards. That one was self-induced, you know, from their own rebellion. Daniel was carried off into Babylon. He didn't do anything wrong, but he was a part of the trouble, the tribulation. the Psalms repeatedly ask, How long, O Lord? I believe it's Psalm seventy three that talks about this. How long, O Lord, will the wicked advance and their scheme seem to work? You know. But the psalmist also responds to himself as if he's God. They will wither and die away. Like do not fret. Let God handle justice. God's people have always lived between promise and fulfillment. Revelation places the church inside that same story. God is here, God is with you, He's entered into the trouble, He's entered into the suffering. But it's not over yet. But he's here with you. And dive in you just said it like it's not over yet in this understanding of it, but how does that understanding of this understanding change the way that we read Revelation? Yeah, it it shifts our focus for sure, because the the way that many people would read Revelation or again, the very it sounds like I'm picking on America. I'm not trying to pick on America. I'm just picking on American pastors who manipulate these scriptures. Yep. That's who I'm furious at. They're not my enemies. But I am angry at them because again, in this research, I've talked about it several times. They take this truth and twist it to benefit themselves. They use fear-mongering of their own people that God's entrusted them to, not to be good shepherds, but to be bad shepherds and to instill fear in their people and profit. They grift off it. You know, like if you if you cling to me as the true Bible teacher, then then I'll get you through the tribulation. Wait, hold on. You're now trying to excuse me, you're trying to put yourself in the place of Jesus. Yeah. Carrying them through. Yeah. Are you kidding me? Like, you know, that's a scary place to be put your place in Jesus and become rich or why doing it. And then what you're doing is you're instilling fear in people when Bible clearly teaches that perfect love drives out all fear and that we have not been given a spirit of fear and cowardice, but one of power and boldness. Yeah. And also where is it listed in the fruit of the spirit? But yet that's what's being instilled in people to be divisive, to be defensive, to be scared of the world, to live in such a way that they're like, I'm ready to fight and I'm ready to shoot whoever comes my way. And you're like, Whoa, hold on, hold on, hold on. This is not The kingdom come, my will be done on earth as it is in heaven. So we have to change our focus instead of constantly asking, so where are we on the prophetic timeline? We have no idea. Yeah. We have no idea. Jesus doesn't even know. No. The YouTube pastor doesn't know. No one knows. Instead, we should be asking and taking all that focus, all that energy, and saying, How can I be faithful today? How can I love my spouse in such a way that we have a God-honoring marriage that people around us who are hurting say, What do you have? How should I treat my children that they walk in such a way that they know who they are in Christ and they are not identifying with this thing in the world or this thing, but their identities are rooted in Jesus. How are we living faithful in a world that is falling apart? You know what gets attention when everyone is shouting at each other? The calm person. Yeah. The calm person, the non-anxious presence. There was a sociologist and a rabbi who did I believe it was Abraham Heschel, did a study on dysfunctional families, and he found that the leader of dysfunctional families, who the leader ended up the true leader was. was the most non-anxious. Even if it was a four year old. Yeah. The one who was the calmest in the storm was the one people looked to the most. Yeah. In the mess. Amen. The world needs calm. Mm-hmm. And they need to know the reason for our hope. Why are you calm when everyone else is freaking out? Why are you not fighting culture wars when everyone else is tearing each other apart? Yeah. And then you're given an opportunity to present the gospel. Revelation becomes a lot less about speculating what's going on in the Middle East, what's going on with politics, what's going on with cryptocurrency, what's going on with barcode tattoos or whatever. And a lot more about, you know what? How can I endure cancer? Yeah. How can I endure looking for a job? How can I endure loving my neighbor even when they're very, very difficult? to love. And it's less about escaping this world. This is the thing that Christians miss. We're not escaping this world. We're trying to remake this world. Jesus didn't escape us. He remakes us. Yeah. And we're called to do the same. Yeah. New life in him. Mm-hmm. So let's return to one of the key passages. I think you hit on it earlier. First Thessalonians 4. Yep. What is Paul here actually describing? What Paul is describing is That there will be a trumpet sound. Yeah. And we will be seized up, caught up into the clouds. Jesus talks about this same idea. There will be two women working, one will be on the rooftop, one will be down low, and one will be taken away. Okay. So he's talking about the same thing. So the idea is not wrong. No. The idea of being seized up, taken away is in the scripture. Yeah. But it's not like Now we're up here hanging up above the sky and everyone else is down low experiencing terrible things. What it is is the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised, which we see at the crucifixion, that many came out of their tombs and people saw them. Yep. So that's again a precursor to what will happen on a global scale. For all Jesus followers will be raised. Yep. Believers living in the dead will be caught up to the clouds. Mm-hmm. And this will be public. Like everyone will see this happening. Yeah. And then nothing will be a secret. And we go up to the clouds to greet our king as he enters into the world. We don't know the timing. It might be 20 seconds, it might be 20 minutes, might be 20 hours. We don't know. But we know it's not for like years and decades or thousands of years. It it's pretty quick. Like that you're entering because the goal isn't to hang out above what you've conquered. It's to enter into your new home, is what the king's doing. And we'll talk about that more in a second. Can I have one illustration that really helps here? Yep. So in the Roman world, when a victorious king approached a city that they had conquered, you know, on the battlefield, and then they're marching to their city, the citizens went out to meet him. Those who were loyal to that king went out to meet him. They escorted him back into the city into celebration. Again, we've re referenced the chosen before. Yeah. But they show a scene like this, not just on Palm Sunday, but when King David conquers Jerusalem and he is ushered in as the king. So this is a common practice, even before the Romans. Paul is using the same language. He's saying the image isn't believers disappearing from this world and just I'm out. See you later. I'm out of this mess finally. It's that believers are welcoming in the returning king and saying, just like Palm Sunday, I'll I'll wave palms, I'll lay down my cloak on the road, we'll start, you know, banging the drums, we'll start singing, we'll start cheering, we'll start dancing, we'll start a parade because the king has come into his own. Mm-hmm. And so we're talking about Jesus' return. We're talking about all this. Yep. How does Jesus himself describe his return? Yep. So he talks about it in Matthew twenty four, Mark thirteen, Luke twenty-one. What he says is there will be cosmic signs. Yep. Which I mean, yeah, like if the clouds are parting and everyone's noticing this event, that seems like a pretty good sign. Right. Trumpets are going off. The angels will be gathering the people. Yeah. So this is what his words are. This isn't speculation or pop culture. This is Jesus. One glorious appearing in the body, not a spirit. Mm-hmm. You'll be able to see him. Yeah. Jesus never clearly describes two separate comings, a secret one and a public one. It's only one. At the beginning of Acts, well, at the end of Matthew twenty eight, which is really like the last scene before Jesus ascends, he says, Go out into the ends of the earth, baptize, you know, teach as what we just said. Acts begins with Jesus ascending into heaven. Mm-hmm. Not like disappearing like Marty McFly in Back to the Future and he's just kind of gone. He you're watching him go into the clouds. And the angels, they're like everyone's like rubbernecking it, looking up at the clouds. And the angels like, Hey, what are you doing? He's not coming back yet. Like he said he's gonna come back the same way he left, in a physical body. Yep. He the clouds will part the same way, but in the meantime, he gave you a job to do. So go do the job. It's not that confusing. No. It's not that hard. It's very simple. And yet people tend to spend more time and energy focusing on like, well, when is he coming back? And you're like, actually he didn't give us that information because clearly he didn't want us to have that information. He didn't even have that information. No. What he wanted us to do was feed hungry people. Yeah. What he wanted us to do was make sure people had water that was clean and homes that they could live in and and to preach the word faithfully and to baptize them and make disciples. Make disciples, right? Like meet their physical needs, Matthew 25, and then go into the ends of the earth and say, I'm gonna care for your spiritual needs as well. Yeah. That you're transformed into a Jesus follower in every sense of the word. That's what we should be spending our time and energy and money on. Yeah. Not sending it to people. people who are trying to predict when he's gonna come back. And here's the thing, they've never been right. No. No they've never been right. There's never been one person right. No. So yeah. No, and I I think I think sometimes in our culture that we f I feel like people they're like, God the Father's in heaven, Jesus at his right hand. Mm-hmm. And so we're here waiting. We're just duping it out. Yeah. But th they forget that little part in Acts where it says the Holy Spirit entered. And like you were preaching. The little part of Pentecost. Yeah, the little part. And it's like the same spirit that raised Jesus, like you said on Sunday, now lives in you. So like you're not going out there trying to do this all by your own will. You have the spirit of the Holy the Holy Spirit inside of you. I read something crazy the other day, but I think I mean it's biblical that you are more qualified to go to God mm than Moses was. Yeah. Well that's You are more qualified to go to God than David was because you have his spirit in you. They did not in the same way that we do. I think it was Cliff. He said Cliff Neckley. Yeah, I think it it might have been, it could be wrong, could be someone else, but someone else preached on it of they said, when you get to heaven, we always think about like who we're gonna talk to. And like talk to Moses, like, how was it? Noah, like how was it? Blah blah and they're gonna go look at you and be like, How was it with the spirit? Yeah, you had God inside of you. We didn't have that. What do you do with it? Yeah. Like how was it? You tell us. Yeah. Like even an average person is like, You t you had more than us. Yeah. So like that's where I think a lot of people kind of forget that we have this power from the spirit inside of us that when we go and do these things, that if we keep relying on our own strength, we'll fail every time. But if you rely on the spirit's strength inside of you that's already there. Or if you go out and expect No pushback and no tribulation and then you experience it and you're confused. Yeah. So then you go and hunker down. Well, yeah, Jesus never said that. Like, look at the disciples. None of them ended in great deaths, except maybe John. Kind of. Kind of. Like I mean, it's not like he had an easy life. But it's also not saying that you're going to be mutilated and crucified if you go invite a coworker to Bible study. Yeah. No. And yet some of us are so scared to even do that. Because we don't we forget, we don't realize what we have, who we have dwelling in us. And in fact, Jesus in the Last Supper says, It's good that I go away because there's one greater than I who is coming, an advocate. Yeah. And all these disciples who abandoned him, who betrayed him, are hiding in the upper room until the spirit shows up. Yep. Yeah. They've not been forgotten. Like we have the same thing happening in us, but some of us are still wanting to be the disciples in the upper room waiting like as if it's not enough. But the spirit, like come Lord Jesus, come Holy Spirit, needs to embolden us to go out and preach the word faithfully and do the work we're called to do. And be amazed at what will happen. Yeah. So where does Revelation? Back on track. Where does Revelation place Christ return? Yeah. So Jesus at the beginning of Revelation is intro you know, is showing John I'm with these churches. Like I'm enduring the pain with them. So like my spirit's here. But when it's all gonna come to its conclusion and curtains gonna drop is in Revelation nineteen. Yeah. One appearance, one defeated enemy, one resurrection. One final judgment. The emphasis is always on Jesus, not on us. No. It's only on us insofar as how are you being faithful to him. That's the emphasis on us, you know. But it's not about constructing complicated timelines or if you Do this numerology over here and this that it's not about that. Sunsets here. Yeah, exactly. Like and the the eclipse. Yeah, the eclipse is gonna go you're it's not no, like sure. Some of that's kinda fun, I'm not gonna lie. Like you're kinda like, interesting. Yeah. It's wrong, but that's interesting. Like and but yeah, that's not but it's not what it's about. Yeah, no. No. but I think a question that arises is, you know, we said it at the beginning and you made a big point of it. It is, you know, a lot of churches skip over Revelation. Unless they're one side or the other, right? yeah. So why spend time talking about all of this? Well, there was a we we listen to a lot of podcasts as we've mentioned, and there was Bryce Crawford was on the Sean Ryan podcast, and Sean Ryan asked the question Is it all supposed to be this complicated? Mm-hmm. And as far as complicated go, this is the book that feels like the most complicated. And what we're really trying to do is make it simple. Very simple. Very simple. Fix your eyes on Jesus. He's the one who's gonna come down and make it public. You know what I mean? Like we're trying to make it simple. We're trying to get people to understand that instead of getting tripped up on theological questions that take up unnecessary amount of time and energy and then create fear and stress and worry. Darkness. Exactly. Like, okay, let's release people of that burden. Mm-hmm. Just as Jesus releases us from that burden with his good teaching, so that we can then walk in freedom out into the world. So because we want to know Jesus, because we want to see the world through his eyes, because we want to know where where he's taking us and where he's taking the world, we need to study the parts of scripture that at first may seem confusing. But again, we have been given the gift of God's word with the Spirit's guidance. We've been given the gift of 2,000 years of faithful guidance of other people to rely on. And we've been given the gift of logic in our own minds. I think sometimes that's gets checked at the door when it comes to church. it does. Yeah, you can use your logic. You know what I mean? Like it's okay. Faith and logic go together. They are not competitors. Like they go together. so. We want to interpret scripture the way that Jesus wants us to understand it as the author, not as me as a reader. I want to know what he says as the author. Now, good Christians can disagree on some of these things. There are people in our church who are probably pre-millennialist and believe in the secret rapture. I'm not kicking them out at ever. No, I'm not doing that. I'm not kicking anyone out who disagrees on this because this is secondary, third level issues that we can sit over a cup of coffee and debate. Yeah. And and be friends and hug and pray for each other. We're not denying resurrection. We're not denying any of the main tenets of the faith. We're just like, well, what about this interpretation? So I think sometimes we fall into the pattern of the world, like if you disagree with me on one thing, then you're out. Yeah. Then you're done on the top of it. I'm trying to explain as best as I can. What I have come to understand from the last two thousand years of church history and what makes the most sense in light of the scriptures teaching. But if people disagree, that's okay. That is okay. Hold your conviction with truth that's backed up with scripture and with humility. Yep. Be open to learn. Yeah. Be open to grow. Yeah. We all should be. We all want to become more like God, not more like what we used to be. Yeah. So hitting on that a little bit. After all this discussion, mm-hmm. What do you hope that people will truly remember from it? Yeah. I would say that the main focus isn't on escaping the world. The main focus is that the world will be remade, just as we have been remade and are being remade by Jesus. That our hope is in King Jesus returning to renew the world, not us just escaping the world and leaving it to the enemy. I don't want to hand over one person to the enemy because I was like, nah, they're too far gone. Yeah. Because that could have been me. Could have been any of us. Could have been any of us. But Jesus refused. So I refuse to draw that line for other people and say, they're too far gone. They're too much of a drug act. They're too tattooed up. They're too much of an at like whatever. Are you scar like they're too sinful, prideful, jealous, greedy. Jesus changes everything. Yep. So we are not drawing the line on what's too dark. Nope. what's too scary. Nope. We're going with Jesus because we know he's greater than anything going in the world right now. So I'd say that'd be the focus is don't be so scared. Don't be so scared. It's okay. Like we're gonna expect trouble. We're not in heaven. No. We're in a broken world. We're in tribulation. There's trouble. But there are people in far worse trouble than we are because they don't have Jesus at this very second. This very second. There are people down the street who are thinking of ending it. There are people in our city who are like, you know, why does it matter if I take the pill one more time or the drug or the drink? Or there are people who are like, Why don't I just steal from the company? You know, just doing whatever destructive thing they're doing. Let's go. Go with the light of Jesus and watch him do what he does. He will remake the world. Yeah. So one thing I think that you're trying to say is Revelation isn't trying to create prophecy experts. Is that correct? No, it is not. It is not. Here's what it is trying to create faithful disciples. Amen. Faithful disciples. Whether Jesus returns today, God willing. Jesus returns in our lifetime, God willing. Jesus returns in a thousand years. Wonderful. Hopefully my great, great, great, great grandchildren are still walking with Jesus because it was normalized in our family. Maybe we don't know when, but the calling is the same from every generation in any nation, in any tribe or tongue is stay awake, stay faithful, keep pointing people to Jesus. That's what we're called to do. Amen. Amen. And with that we're gonna wrap up today's episode. So I thank you for wherever you're tuning in from. We're so grateful that we get to do this and get a talk on some microphones every week. So we'll catch you next time. Thank you again for tuning in.