House of Worship Safety and Defense: Welcome. Thanks for joining me today. Pull up your chair, make yourself comfortable, and let's hear what's been on your mind. Today, I'm joined by security and safety expert Jonathan Cohen. What if one simple decision today could save a life tomorrow? Every house that worship is meant to be a place of peace. Peace doesn't happen by accident. It requires preparation. You need a plan before you ever need to use it. If it's done right, the The head of the safety ministry will have someone walk up to them and say, Are you guys even on the job? I do teach self defense with firearms, but I also teach emergency medical response for trauma for CPR. Jonathan is the founder of Nevish Defense. He shares how churches, synagogues, and other faith communities can remain warm and welcoming while still being prepared for medical emergencies, violence. Another critical incidents. Without turning a place of worship into a fortress. Gotta make it invisible, but you have to make it effective. Yes, as a matter of fact, there you know, there are a dozen of us, you know, throughout the place and we've had everything under control the whole time. If you can make it invisible, that's the best part. The number of people that walked up to me and said, You know, I really feel safe here. That made that made all of the All the effort and all the arguing and all of the the board meetings worth it. You probably listen to this show because you're curious and enjoy learning new things. This episode delivers that and more. Today's conversation goes beyond learning. Could help protect lives. This isn't about living in fear. It's about being prepared, protecting the people we serve, preserving the peace that makes our community strong. What's this? If you're part of a church, synagogue, or faith community, this is an episode you want to share with your leaders and security teams. Jonathan is a knowledgeable, passionate, and honestly a fun and fascinating guy to talk with. I think you're really gonna enjoy this conversation. Let's get started. So we're welcoming our guest today, Jonathan Cohen. Jonathan, welcome to the show. Thank you. Glad to be here. Good to see you again. Glad to have you. It's an honor and privilege. So Jonathan, tell us what's been on your mind and tell us a little about your story. What's been on my mind directly relates to my story. What's been on my mind is the world. The world events that nobody seems to want to understand really are all interconnected. That, you know, the there are people who think that an event in the world is like an in a little box and it happens over in one little place and that it doesn't doesn't have ripple effect around the world. So, you know. Right now my wife and I are scheduled to go on a trip to visit Israel. We want to see you know, our homeland and and and that which we love. But there are a bunch of very angry people who like throwing missiles in the air and that may that may force us to be yeah, that and that may force us to be canceled. And that, you know, how what's on my mind is that until we as as a race, as a human race, understand the interconnectedness we really do share. And that if we don't sort of learn how to live peacefully as good neighbors, this insanity will never ever end and we will never learn. So that's that and my story is about and and how it relates to my story really is that sure what I've chosen to do now. And I'm at the point in my life where, at least in my family, I've finally reached middle age, that I understand I just I just went to I went to go visit my dad and celebrate his one hundredth birthday with him. Wow. Where amazing. Yeah, where to celebrate those genes. Yeah, yeah. I inherited those genes and yes, they are Levite genes. as a that that was a horrible joke. but it I inherited those genes, so I better start taking care of myself, you know, lay off those cigars. and you know, so when middle age, I look back and I realize up to now I have served myself. I have done my best, I have delivered the products that I promised and did the best I could, but I didn't so much work to serve others. Huh. Are you Okay? And by serving others, that means to aid them, to do what I can to help them. and so I started my company, Nefesh Defense. And I teach people how to survive. And and you know, we work off of a few basic principles. And in Hebrew, the first one is Shomer. And Shomer Come is is a specific reference to Ezekiel thirty three, one through six, one through six, where the the prophet says the Lord you know, wants you to select watchmen from among your people, from among the people, to stand guard and to warn of the coming of war. And it is the responsibility of the watchman to, you know, blow the shofar, the the horn, and warn the people of the coming of war, that they can prepare for themselves and defend themselves. So that's that's the first part that we are in. That's that's that's where the name comes. That's Shomer. That is a a a watchman. The name of the company, Nefesh, that is the Hebrew word for the human soul. So it is it is in very much a spiritually oriented and spiritually founded concept that if we can keep the human soul alive, there is greater greater chance for peace. And that's on both a physical and a metaphysical scale. So that I do teach self defense with firearms, but I also teach emergency medical. response for trauma for CPR AED. I have certification as an EMT. There's a whole lot of alphabet soup going on there. And I guess so. But I that's that's part of my career. And I also But you do all that training, but those are all three separate things. You don't do all that training in one it's not all in one class. No, that would that would be a t that would be like a forty eight hour class. That would never it'd a very long class. And personally I'd get bored after a while because I am from the land of short attention span theater. but but yeah, these are all aspects of of what it means to to survive. So it is to be a watchman, it is to survive, to be a survivor, and also to be greater than oneself. To be willing to look out for your neighbor, your fellow human being. yes. And and the the final the final watchword is for peace. And the word in Hebrew shalom doesn't just mean peace, it means completeness. It means a totality of completeness. So that the only way that one can truly achieve completeness is by both being alive. and having spiritual enlightenment. so That is those are the the foundations of what of what I teach. That's the foundation of Nefesh defense. So a lot of these seem to be like biblical terms. Do you teach this in like a biblically based fashion? It is taught in a very contemporary fashion, but everything is introduced as to its biblical source, as to its religious source. And it's not even a real it's it is absolutely a a biblical source. I have had students who were not Jewish who came and truly enjoyed and understood exactly what motivated me to start this. part of what Nefesh Defense does and what I do really is we have started in our area a house of worship safety initiative. And what this is, is the safety. ministries of multiple houses of worship. Not only our s our synagogue, but in I'm in Valparaiso, Indiana, and we have at least a dozen churches that are members of this. And what we do we meet monthly, we share best practices, techniques, and communication and updates on world events that we've So with your temple, you guys meet every month to kind of review this stuff. Absolutely. We meet once a month as as for our personal for our internal procedures. But the House of Worship initiative is the goal is to make our area very unwelcome for people who want to cause problems. Doesn't matter what they are. That's way put that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We're just we're just not well if you're not a good person, you're not welcome. Okay. Okay. If you are but if sure. Right. But if you are a person who is su searching for spiritual enlightenment for community, for guidance. Yes, we want you to come. We want to be here for you as long as you are coming from a good place. All right. So any house of worship, your your goal there is just to protect houses of worship, however that may be. Yes. My your training is based upon how they would do that. Yes. So is more of that preventing a problem or dealing with a problem once it happens? Well there is a phrase by a famous security expert, a man by the name of Ste Steve Tarrani. And if you if you ever go up and look him up, he's done a re he has a phenomenal history of very, very important s safety and security application. And his statement is this if you have to go to your guns, all your plans have failed. And this is this is the watchwell, you know, have plans, have good plans in depth that you have trained and trained and trained. Because, you know, the old phrase is an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. That if you can stop the person from if you can stop the problem from occurring in the first place, that is the best solution. All right. That You know, have plans. How do you advertise to the bad guys out there that you know, hey, we know what we're doing, so leave us alone. But security cameras out there are visible security guards, or what do you do to let them know that? There are multiple avenues. And the ones that I'll talk about first are things that are super obvious. That is having people visible who are watching. Having your watchman. Okay. Whether it is a contracted uniform officer who's providing security for a house of worship. whether it is your volunteers who are greeters or ushers, however you you know, and the way I teach it, those are two different functions. All right. Greeters and ushers are two different things? Yes. That the greeters are there at the front door and They usually are just those are your eyes and ears right up front immediately. They are the people who who will who will look and talk to people. And hope you know, it's funny somebody asks, what's the ideal description of a greeter? I would say somebody who has worked in sales a long time. Somebody who has worked in direct sales for a while, because they know how to read people. And they can get them need to be a a burly. Man doing the greeting to kind of look imposing and say, Don't come in here? No. No. As a matter of fact, we don't want it to be imposing. We want people to feel welcome to the house of worship, sure. Right. If because if you think about it, if you are going to worship with your family and the person who's greeting you is smiling and says, John, it's great to see you. How are the kids? Come on in. How's the wife? it's a wonderful day. Come on in. If you go up front, there's seats over on the left side. You know, okay. If you get a greeting like that, all right, that's awesome. That is how it's in my opinion and the way we teach, that is how we should be doing it. That's that's what should happen. Yeah, yeah. All right. Now, if you are a person who is new, all right, there is there are a number of things to do. Okay, I've never seen you before. I'm gonna say I'm gonna walk straight up to you, I'm gonna look you in the eye. Now, as I walk up to you, I'm gonna look at your ankles, I'm gonna look at your waist, I'm gonna look at your hands, your shoulders, all right? Because I'm looking for specific things. Bulge. Right. Is there, you know, what is what is he wearing? You know, his type of shoes even will give him a way. Is he wearing a watch? Okay. Is he making eye contact with me? Is he speaking clearly? Do I see is this tall hat and sunglasses? Right. You know, like does he pass that? Right. That the overcoat in July. you know, are it's like just talk to people. The there is a publication available from I think it's Sissa from the government called The Power of Hello. Because right, if you talk to everybody coming in the door And you look them in the eye and the ones that you don't like, you have a way of alerting the next greeter to come and talk to them with you. And so you never work alone. All right. Even if you even if if the first person contacting them is a is a five foot tall, you know, seventy year old woman who just wants to hug everybody. Yeah, yeah. Perfect person because you know what happens when she hugs them? She'll find out if they're packing. She'll find out if they've got a a a gun on a hip or or something like that. And she can quietly signal somebody else to come. Hey, this guy needs to be talked to. All right. And we don't want confrontation. We don't we we don't want there to be a scene. We want things to go quietly. We want there we want people to feel safe at all times. Because what what is really the the The purpose of a house of worship. And it's it to me is my definition is this the house of worship is sanctuary. Huh. It is sanctuary. That the foot to me, the concept that the footprint of the entire building is sanctuary, that when you step inside, there should be peace and protection and an opportunity that nurtures growth. All right. This is Well it's in the name House to Worship, you're there to worship. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the best way to worship is in the in a sanctuary. That's where everybody says, you know, you do most of your praying in the sanctuary. Why can't the entire why can't the entire building be considered the sanctuary? And when from a safety perspective and from a security perspective, that's exactly what I teach because you know you have the children's wing. Fine. It is not in the main chapel, let's say. It is in its own wing. But those are your children. Those are the most valuable thing I mean, the most valuable thing in any parent's life. And you know, why can't they be just as safe and just as protected and have the opportunity to grow and have that peace? It's like that is so the entire footprint of that building, that is your sanctuary. This is this these are the principles I teach. So when you're being welcoming and friendly like that, what if what do you do when there is a that d that didn't seem odd or this guy just didn't kind of feel right or if you have some questions, do you confront the person, you just keep an eye on you bring more people out, or what what's kind of the next if you're Absolutely. I would bring a second person, go, Hey, that's great. We have this area right here for new people that we we just want to get to know you, have you fill out a welcome card and you know, et cetera. And By that that way you've got pulled out of the mainstream, especially if it is a lar larger house of worship with a lot of people showing up. We have some members of our of our group here in in northwest Indiana that do three services a day of five hundred parishioners. Holy cow. Per su per service. So that's a lot of people to talk to. That is a big high target for someone who wants to cause mischief. They see something like that. Like, hey, I right they're a big I can make a bigger impact if I go to them. So wouldn't that make you more of a target? Yes. Because absolutely beyond the shadow of a doubt, terrorists go on body count. They they they pick target by body count. How many how many bodies can I stack here? And understand the So yeah, we can get but we can move on to the but talking about terror should be in a slightly different column. But when talking about, you know, how do you set up for that, it is about you know, it's the same phrase as if you don't want somebody to to burgle your house, you put a big dog in your front yard. So you do yeah, you you present as a as an or as a facility that is prepared. You have your cameras out. You have you have your greeters out. You have, you know, a uniformed security person up front and center who is out in front to and you know not to not asleep on a couch in the back somewhere. I have a story about that. and you know, here is and and you have your safety ministry. in your house of worship. And the safety ministry is a separate safety ministry? Yeah. A safety ministry within a within a house of worship f you know has to understand that what they should train for is what would be most likely to happen first. And what's most likely to happen first is actually a medical emergency. A medical emergency. Absolutely. Absolutely. Medical emergencies are the most likely thing to happen first. The second one would be a weather related emergency. Okay. And down at the bottom of the list, which would be, you know, in the right now three percent, five percent possibility would be a political emergency such as a terrorist attack. That's pretty high for something like that, I would think. It used to be one. but you know, but in in April of twenty twenty one that's a lot. Like you meet a hundred times and that's one time right. When you add too many if you Right. But that is the risk. There are many, many attacks that are not reported in the news. All right. That never get never get onto that that six o'clock news. so is that an attack that turns into an attack or like a maybe a a planned attack that got foiled. So because someone like you was there, they were going to, but then they changed their mind and backed off and changed targets or didn't do it. Yeah, we have no idea how many attacks were have been foiled by just the presence. Right. you know, there's somebody asked me how do I keep from being paranoid? You know, bec I said it's it's that spiritual center that I have to understand that, you know, that is my strength. It is it is said many times in the Psalms and everything else. But we have to live from the position, at least in the Jewish community, we always live from the position of we are always under surveillance. There is always somebody looking for us. There's always going to be that threat. So at no time do we really let down the guard because when you're when you take on the the role of the safety ministry, when you take on the role of the of the the watchman, you accept a true statement and that is that the good guys have to get it right every single day. Every single day we have to get it right. But the bad guys only have to get it right once. Hey I hope you're enjoying this as much as I am and every episode is different. Completely different. Real people Real stories, behind-the-scenes secrets, and fresh perspectives. If you love curiosity and great storytelling, you're in the right place. Hit like and subscribe so you'll never miss what's coming next. And even though we're not live, I'd love to hear from you. Drop us your perspective, your thoughts, your questions in the comments below. Let us know what's been on your mind. Now, let's jump back in. So you said that most often be a medical emergency, but it's not d necessarily medical because of what the terrorists Exactly right. I can give you very separate. Yeah. So our little congregation, we have a grand total of about a hundred and five members, right member families right now. and it's growing. We're one of the few congregations that's growing. And thank God. And next door to us is lit when I say next door, I mean literally. Our two properties have a common boundary. Okay. Is a very large nondenominational church. And when I s you know, and so when I say there are churches that have three three services on a Sunday where they have five hundred people at a service and on a high holiday like Easter, they had five services with four hundred with with, you know, even more people. So yeah, a good size church. Right. And they have a day school with I think they have twenty classrooms and they have a waiting list. So these day schools on Sunday or like throughout the week? They're a constant they have a constant presence on Sun there's no no, they have a a a weekly Sunday. They're Sunday school. Okay. It's just packed. It's just packed. And this is fantastic. This is beautiful to see. And they're fantastic neighbors. And a couple actually just a few weeks ago, there wasn't a a A kind of a scary moment where there was a parishioner, an elderly gentleman, and he collapsed during service. Well, their safety ministry includes a nurse practitioner. So in other words, a physician's assistant who got to the got to the man within a minute, within one minute and was able to assess that he had no pulse, he was not breathing. She performed CP. She she began performing CPR on him. He woke up. He woke up. Good. He woke up. Sat up. Yeah. Yeah. And the paramedics showed up and the guy was walking out, walked out to the ambulance and then refused to transport to the hospital. It's like, dude, you were dead. Go to the hospital. Okay. Wow. but you know, so two things. One, they were prepared. All right. Sure. Being prepared and and they were prepared for the most common event, which is going to be a medical emergency. If your congregation has a has, you know, more than fifty percent of your population is over the age of sixty, the likelihood of you having to face a cardiac emergency just escalates rapidly. Absolutely. By statistics. Okay. And that wasn't the first time they had to do that. They've they've Because you have so many people who show up on a regular basis, which is beautiful. That's fantastic. The likelihood of somebody being sick is very real. And it's it's this isn't, you know, this isn't brain surgery or some magic to it. This is just statistics. And so it's more than once that they have had to call the call the paramedics and take action right there in front of in front of everything going on. And so it was not the first time a life was saved. And you know, they've had you know unfortunate incidents where, you know, here in the middle of winter, there's ice on the ground and somebody slipped. And so the safety ministry came out, they made sure they were they they did the right things, they called the right, right emergency services, and that is the first emergency that a safety ministry is gonna have to face. Okay. Okay. Now The s the second type would be some kind of a weather emergency. Tornado, snowstorm, you know, flooding, you know, something like that. Very classic stuff. Now, it was last winter, not this past winter, I think the one before when we had or maybe it was yeah, it was a year ago. we had just a horrible ice storm came through, knocked out power in our area for like three or four days. And there were Many members of our congregation who are senior citizens. But what we have done at at our facility is we installed a backup generator. And the backup generator kicked on and natural gas didn't shut off. So we had heat and we had light and we had water and we had food and we had a comfortable place for them to come and sit. And so we were the warming center for. The people who who had been displaced by the storm. and again, what is a house of worship? It's a sanctuary. So the world out there is harsh, and the sanctuary should be your protection. And this was a physical manifestation of that. Nice. To, you know, and so that kind of encouragement, that's your second level. Your third level, which is, you know, a very small percent possibility, is some type of violent physical attack. and understand terrorism terrorism is using violence to achieve political gains. That is the definition of terrorism. And so when you look at a horrible attack recently, which was in Bloomfield, Michigan in April of of twenty twenty six, a an assailant drove his That's right outside Detroit. Right outside Detroit. It drove his forward his Ford pickup truck through the back doors of a synagogue that was that had over a hundred children in their school and tried to set the building on fire, actually kinda did, and was involved in a gunfight with the safety team at the security team at the drove his truck through, tried to start a fire and tried to start a gunfight. Yes. This is what it was. You got all three coming at you. Yeah. Because the this is what this is what is known as as a as a combined attack. So they have more than one method of assault. the the fear of you know the lone actor showing up at a house of worship with a pistol has been superseded by something so much more horrific. Okay. And That that horror is what they're going for. So yeah, this is what I've done. To prevent something like that, something as horrific as that is what will you train your people when they hire Nefish Defense to prevent something like that happening? Absolutely. Absolutely. Some of it is physical barriers. there are things called bollards. And we've all seen them. We don't know what they're called until we find out that they're called bollards. So if you've ever been to say a Target department store. The big red balls. The big red balls, the line that that is a direct outgrowth of the Rodney Rodney King riots in Los Angeles. Okay. When then people decided, hey, you know, just because they've got Target's trends, right? They just they would just drive the car right into the store and clean it out. And so Target said, you know, it's cheaper to put these giant concrete red balls in front of the store and stop people from being able to drive into them. yeah. So that that is a form that is a form of a bollard. Or you could it could simply be a steel post. Sure. You know, you know, four inch diameter steel post that's four feet into the ground and three four feet sticking out and full of concrete. That will definitely stop most passenger cars. Yeah. yeah. So you You know, a line of those. And if that doesn't work, like we have a very small facility, but our parking lot is directly in front of the facility. So what we do is we park vehicles in a very strategic manner so that it forms a wall. So you have parking lot attendants out there that kind of direct people where to park? Yep. Yep. It's not just first come, first serve. It's hey, I we want you to guys park here first. It's it's pretty Fundamental. It's like back into Very intentional. So that if someone were to just you know could literally drive across our front lawn and into the building, but there's another car in the way. Okay. The likelihood of them getting through. You purposely park those cars in front to help prevent some other truck blasting through that. Right. And to that creating your own ballards. Absolutely. And you know, if For for for congregations that they can't decide to do it or they you know, every every house of worship there's always a budget issue. And bollards are not cheap when you have to do fifty, sixty, eighty of them to just secure the property. And they have to be done right. And they really have to be done right. So in your experience when when you think or from talking to people and when when you say, Hey, this is what I do. What do you think the average person's perception is of what you do? That I that I walk around wearing body armor, carrying rifles and a helmet, and I'm talking into my sleeve and I never sleep and I live on, you know, MREs and no, I don't I'm not that guy at all. Okay. No. I try to make it as the the goal really is to make it invisible. I want people to be prepared. Yeah, make make the security of the house of worship invisible. All right. If if it's done right, the the head of the safety ministry will have someone walk up to them and say, are you guys even on the job? And they'll go, yes. As a matter of fact, there, you know, there are a dozen of us, you know, throughout the place and we've had everything under control the whole time. You know? huh. It's if you can make it invisible, that's the best part. Right? If you can you know, it there's always a learning curve. And at first with my experience, people were not happy with the idea that they couldn't just randomly walk in and out of any door. That there was only one entrance and one exit and everything else was locked. And There was there was always going to be at least two people, you know, two greeters or two ushers. Ushers are the big bully guys. All right. Then to two ushers at that door to keep an eye on things and that there was always going to be a marked police car out in front. Once they got used to Yeah, once they got used to that, the number of people that walked up to me and said, You know, I really feel safe here. Hmm. That made That made all of the all the effort and all the arguing and all of the the board meetings worth it. gotta gotta do gotta make it invisible, but you have to make it effective. Gotcha. So now you also do the conceal carry training. Do you recommend just some of the people carry or all your security type people do or anyone? What do you in a house of worship, how how do you think you would recommend that type of defense. Wow. Okay. This is loaded because of so many factors. And let's see if I can let's see if I can, you know, sort of group them in a logical manner. The first the first factor I need to discr discuss with it d to a pr to address really is the leadership. And that would be the the pastor, the priest. You know, the rabbi, the whoever is in charge of the you know, the the lead spiritual guide. the the person whose goal it is to get people to to live live on a higher spiritual level. My phone was ringing in my ear, sorry. my that to live on a higher spiritual level, if do they have buy into the program? Okay. And at what level, you know, are they gonna say, absolutely no, no one may be armed on church property. There's no there's no reason to have that around. We don't want any of it. Okay. So some of that's church policy. Some of that will be policy. Right. Whichever one it is. It's it's going to be that the policy as set by the the spiritual leadership. the second part of leadership was going to be the lay leadership, the board of directors. Okay. What is their opinion? They're the people who have to run this day in, day out. They're the the nuts and bolts. How do we make the money? You know, how do we take this much money and cover that? What would you recommend as the quantity or who has that or how would you if they said yes, how would you present that or recommend to that? My recommendation is that first of all, whoever is in charge of the program understands the job, understands what is necessary, and has the skills to assess members of the team. Okay. So, you know, before I took this on, I have roughly I'm I counted it up once. It's about a thousand hours of training. Okay. Yeah. I have been in and that's the house of worship training or a gun train? Training or C PR training or all the above. Okay. All the but well if I add in C PR it's it's even more, but just for on the Yeah, it's way more now. it's it's another add another six months. Dang. So yeah. And for but for f just on the firearm side a thousand, and that's not only you know how to handle, manipulate and and teach how to handle and manipulate a firearm, but also mindset. and discipline and analysis, assessment, avoidance, de-escalation. De escalation is huge. All right. If somebody doesn't understand de-escalation and also assess you know personality assessment. You know, you don't want somebody who's got just a a a bad temper armed with a round around a whole bunch of people who you know it's kind of so there's there has to be a personality assessment. And then there is physical capability assessment. Can this person deliver the job? Can they run toward the the gunfire? But assuming you have those people, how many of those would you recommend? To have at least one or all most of the greeters, or as many as you can, or just it well, here is this again. I mean, it's it's also a gray area. it's as many as can function effectively is by God. As many as can function effectively because There was a shooting I think it's about six years ago in Texas. It was no it was I yeah, it was I think it was just pre COVID. So about five years ago in Texas. A guy a a man who was known to the church as as a problem. Is that right? Was allowed in. He was it was Texas in August. He was wearing a black trench coat, a fake a a wig and a fake beard. Okay. Obviously fake beard. And he was sat down next to a member of the security team. Well, service is going, worship has finished, and the the the pastor is preaching, and the guy stands up, pulls a sawed off twelve gauge from under his jacket, shoots the security guy he was next to, killing him. And he is then taken out by another member of the security team. But what followed thereafter was twenty five people all having their weapons out, pointing at each it's like flagging each other. Wow. It's a well armed sanctuary. it's Texas. It's it's it's Texas. You are not allowed to live in Texas unless you have a gun. Okay? There you go. Austin, mmm. But then the rest of Texas, yeah. and that is a very dangerous situation. You know, the first rule of teaching a security team that is armed is the principle of do not shoot each other. You got crossfire to worry about that many people with their guns out. Right. This is why I say only the number you know, you start at the minimum number that will be effective. Okay. So there's also a maximum number that you're saying. You don't want to have too many? You if you have here is the point is that it's training, training, training, training. That just because a person may know how to stand at a in a gun range, at a fixed plate, in in in a fixed place, at a fixed target, at a fixed distance and be accurate, okay, that's great. When it's going down, that's not how it is in reality though. Can you shoot while you're running? You know, can you can you move and shoot at the same time while telling, while talking? All right. Okay. So you've got it you've got to be able to chew gum while patting your head, rubbing your stomach and doing and playing hopscotch. So, what's been on your mind? Let us know in the comments. I really do want to hear from you. That's what this show is all about. Curious people asking questions, discovering new ideas, and sharing interesting stories. Join the conversation, let me know. Every episode is different, completely different. Every show brings a new perspective. So don't just watch, share your thoughts. Leave a comment, share your perspective, and tell us what stood out to you. You probably have something to add, or even something to correct, or clarify. I genuinely would love to hear from you. After all, that's what this show is about. What's been on your mind? Stay curious. Alright, let's jump back into the show. Well, even the incidents at the that Trump correspondence dinner or whatnot with the security guards, they fired what, five, six times? And even so s even the Secret Service people couldn't hit the guy. They finally ended up tackling him. But even those types of trained people who would be the ultimately trained, couldn't hit the guy in a stressful situation. And the one guy he shot was like point blank right into his bulletproof vest. So of course he wouldn't miss. But he didn't get any other shots off and Secret Service missed him. So it it just backs up your point there. People well well trained still missed. Absolutely. They missed a moving target in a crowded situation. Okay. It is hard to do. It is it, you know don't believe the movies for an instant. And boom, boom, and it's no problem. Right. It's like, I'll just you know, I don't know if you remember the old the Dragnet series, but They had a they had a a rule on that show that you could only fire one bullet. There would only ever be one gunshot in an episode. And you know, you see, you know, Joe Friday take out his detective special with a with a two inch barrel and make a fifty yard shot with it. With a two inch barrel. Or Lone Ranger, he only needed one. He could, you know, hit a rope from a horse at fifty yards. Right. While while in mid gallop, okay. So Yeah, that doesn't happen. Okay. That just doesn't happen. because the majority, you know, the truth is that the majority of police officers do not get the amount of practice that actually a larger percentage of civilians do. How's that? Yes. Because like at any time, if I want to, I can go to the gun range and go test out stuff. and if I'm a member of the appropriate club, I can be on a type of range where I can move and shoot and practice and train on different methods of doing things. The thing is that most departments have cut way back on their training budgets. And, you know, in a perfect world if I could wave a magic wand, it would be no, cops get a lot more opportunity and they get paid to go and train and train and train. You know, at least monthly they go and train. So in real life training then like that, 'cause you standing at the range like we had mentioned is is one thing when it's actually happening. Do they fire do they practice with like lasers or pellet guns or how would they how do they practice and train for a real life stressful situation? All of the above, yes. Okay. Okay. You know, here is where here is where, you know, budget really comes into play. it for the security teams that I work with, I stress that they practice, they train together. There's a difference between practice and training. Practice you can do on your own, but you may develop bad habits. Training is something you do with a professional who can observe you and correct those bad habits and get you to a a better place than you were before. All right. So it's the difference between, you know, just running, you know, if you're football, just running, you know, touch and go drills or actually having a coach watch you guys scrimmage and give you analysis. All right. So Or for any sport or any musician, you know, somebody's still learning the piano. Yeah, they can practice, but when they sit down with the teacher, that guides them to a higher level. Okay. So with a house of worship, if they have if their policy by their leaders and elders is, hey, we want some people armed, you can do that training. If their policy is we don't want that, they've got that no gun sticker on their door or something like that, there's still things that you can train then so any of those situations, you are the guy to talk to. Yeah. You know, when you'd have so we have one church that was absolutely and and Excuse me. Was absolutely dead set against there may be no weapons of any kind, not not Pepper spray, not a not a not pepper spray. An air pistol that shoots pepper balls. Nothing. No weapons whatsoever. They didn't even want him to have a broom handle. Okay. Nothing. All right. What do you do to protect that congregation? How do you do that? And it it really is about the what Steve Tarrani said. You need more plans. You need to have plans. More plans. And yes. And so you have several things. the next phrase I learned from a retired FBI agent who is in char who is the regional director for the Secure Community Network program here in Indiana, who said access control is threat control. Okay. That if the if the threat does not have access to the innocent people, you did your job. All right. So it is about access control. And access control includes a lot of different layers. I teach. Access you then if someone is questionable or or looks new, you just kind of with people kind of push them up, not push, but guide them off to the side, hey, you know, like you were saying, this is where our new people kind of stay. You just kind of like that? Yeah. Yeah. When in doubt, keep them out. in doubt, keep them out. Okay. Basic phrase. And do all of your interviewing outside. Do not, you know, there are I teach what is r what I call perimeters in depth. All right. Your first perimeter is where the property line of the house of worship meets the public. Meets the public right of way. Okay. So it The it's the end of your driveway. Okay? It's the end of your driveway, it's where the lawn meets the sidewalk, whatever you call it, it's the property line. That's your that's your first perimeter. That is probably the most porous perimeter. All right. Yeah, but jump a fence, but you have a gate open for people to drive into your parking lot. To come to service. Yes. Sure. You yeah. You you don't want to be standing there with with you know rifles, you know, looking like an armed camp with a couple of gatling guns and guys with hats with big feathered plumes up there, you know, spiting them in. You know, it's don't do it. So worst case scenario then. Say this person's a good actor. They come in, they don't look suspicious, they look well, you know, they're checking out this church. This looks pretty nice. They get all the way to the sanctuary, they sit down, but they are up to no good and then they do pull their firearm or or whatever I can give you if they would choose and then if that church is is the well we don't do pep we don't do pepper spray would they is it run and hide you say swarm the guy or then worst case scenario someone gets inside your policy is no guns what do they do? Okay. There I can give you two examples, one of which is a nonviolent event and that is where A group of eight or ten protesters came to a very large house of worship and they entered through different doors and they were multiple people even involved. Multiple people. Yes. It was this was an organized event. And then in the middle of prayer service, they all stood up and started chanting. You know. Chanting. Yeah, like down with the man, you know, that kind of that kind of political chant. You know. Not like they were not like But it was it was slogan they were slogan early man. We're not not the man. They were like, you know Hell no, we won't go. Well if you keep doing that, you will, okay? So it's so what do you do there? Well, if you have sufficient number of people and you have tr and you have educated and hopefully trained with as number of your parishioners, yeah, you mob them and you push them out. They don't belong there. All right. Now, here is the issue is that could that be considered assault? Well, yeah. And we live in a litigious environment. so there's That's not self-defense? If he's inside your sanctuary and threatens the people you can throw yeah, you can throw people in. Yeah, but it's it's not really self defense because were they threatening anyone? Technically no, but they were disruptive. And A house of worship has certain rights. Now I'm not a lawyer, so I'm not gonna quote stuff to you, but there are certain things you can do. Can you in in a more serious situation, somebody stands up in the middle of your of your service and they have a firearm and they start yelling, you know, whatever slogan you wish to hear or not hear. the the one slogan you don't want to hear. And what do I tell people? Well, if you are holding, you know. In the Jewish tradition we have a prayer book and the prayer book's about that thick. Okay. Yeah. That's a lot of prayers. That's great. That's a lot of prayers. And something and you then you do what the judge does. You throw the book at him. because there you go. You literally turn it into a weapon. Sure. Use what's Turn it into a weapon. Right. Right. I promise you. Right, and I'm right. Now the other thing is if he stands up in the middle of the service, there are people around him three hundred and sixty degrees. He's gonna have stuff flying at him from every direction. He's gonna duck. At that point, what do you do? You jump him. Then you jump him because ducking take advantage of that and keep him going down. If you are but only if you only if, only if. You are trained and capable of grappling a you know, an opponent. Okay? Okay. If you are not if you are not, you get the heck out of there. All right? And that five foot three greeter you mentioned earlier, you're not expecting Well get out of there. Just get out of there. Just just get out the way. She can do the duck and cover. She can throw that book, I'll promise you. The woman I'm thinking of place Yeah, yeah, she can throw the book just fine because the woman I'm thinking of at at our congregation plays tennis and she beats all the men. So wow. Okay. So she's got a heck of an arm. yeah. She's got that good forearm. And she's from Brooklyn. So you know she's got that attitude. Yeah. And so she will bounce that thing right off the guy's head. And if you know, if your chairs are not locked, if your chairs are not bolted down, like if you don't have pews, but you have individual chairs and you can pick the thing up, throw that at You know? Throw the chair. Sure, sure, sure. Yeah. The human body the human brain works this way. When something is flying at my head, I will duck. I will duck, yeah. That's just instinct. Yeah. Natural. Yeah, for sure. So now that you've been doing this for a while, what kind of surprised you but what you expected when you started getting into Training and what it's actually like. What have you kind of thought that that you found is different from what you expected when you went into this? there are two reactions to do that that I had no idea would occur. One was I can't do this, I'm leaving. What do you mean? You explain that. Meaning that they cannot accept that part of being a an active member of a House of Worship safety ministry is to read the news. And read news you don't want to read. And be aware of statistics that are disturbing and be aware of tactics and skills that you have to master that, you know, are are not fair. You know, there's no f the there's no such thing as a fair fight. Okay. Yeah, there's only there's only two positions in a fair fight the person who won and the person who lost. And Yeah, there's a phrase I saw on the internet that came out of the military that says, If you find yourself in a fair fight, you have you are not doing it right. so the that's the first thing is that there were people who could not accept the fact that I'm gonna say it in a in a manner that I borrowed from the head of a church security ministry here at Valpo, who said, People who want to carry on my team, I asked them one question. He said, Do you feel do you feel you could actually shoot to kill someone? Do you think you could actually kill somebody? And if they say, No, I don't think I could, well, then they don't carry a gun. Makes sense. It's it's not gonna help. You're not gonna do it. It's like if you don't if you are unwilling to take a life to protect the innocent, okay. I can use you in a hundred other ways, but I can't you can't have a gun. Just don't do it. so there was the the people who don't accept that we are dealing truly with life and death. That we are we are that last line. Whether it is a medical emergency or if it is, you know, a terrible blizzard and there are people who are cold, but we can get them to to our house of worship to thaw out, that's still saving a life. And There is there's two points about that that I I look to biblically. And one is in the Ten Commandments and the literal translation there have been multiple translations that were wrong. That when you read the original Hebrew, the commandment says, Thou shalt not murder. Murder. It's not thou should not kill, which you hear a lot. Right. Yeah. It does not say that. It says thou shalt not protect murder. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thou shalt not murder. And the the second concept, which is based on biblical principles, is in Hebrew pikuach nefesh, and that is the preservation of life, the preservation of the soul. That to keep someone alive, to keep to protect life, everything may be set aside. So I will stand, you know, I this was personal, but that I have decided that yes, I know I am violating X number of rules and laws by doing what I do to protect my congregation, but I do so because I am pr I'm there to protect life. That's why I do it. So it sounds like initially you talk you want to keep people out. Pr prevent the thing from happening. Screen the people as they come in. Let them know they've got eyes on them, that you're watching them. And then if something were to go down, you're properly prepared to how to handle that and and minimize that and and things like that. Yeah. And then of course, if something does go down, remember Remember the rest of the iceberg. Okay, so everybody thinks that the event This horrible tragic on the top. Yeah, yeah. That's just the top. Because the rest of the iceberg down below it is all of the legal aspects of it, but also the personal, psychological, and emotional aspect of it. And that is the long-term effects. Okay. of, you know, in theory, I a civilian with a certain amount of training am now faced with facing an attack from a a violent offender and I have had to apply deadly force. You it is now no, in theory. This is in theory. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I, as the defender, would have to apply dead have to apply deadly force. what happens 24 hours later, legally, emotionally, psychologically, physically? Okay. Okay. what happens seventy two hours later? What happens a week later? What's gonna happen a month later? How much sleep will be lost? How many, you know, sleepless nights of the person, you know, their their eyes saucer wide, you know. Makes sense. A bit a bit upset. How you know, how many arguments is that person gonna have with loved ones because he just needs space or because he needed to talk about it but they were sick of it? you know, what kind of support is there? afterwards for that security member team member who had to do that. So this is also, you know, part of the discussion. This is part of the training. This is part of the the structure that the people who are there on the front line, they need support. They need emotional support, psychological support, they need spiritual support. I'm gonna take a quick break here to talk to you about something that really matters, especially on a show about stories and family. How about your family stories? Are they safely preserved? Those old 8mm home movies that your parents took, your degrading VHS tapes, maybe a box of memories you inherited, you don't even know what's on them. Family Film Transfer can rescue all those old formats. They'll digitize everything, back it up to the cloud, or they can deliver you a secure, physical USB drive. company that actually lives their family values. They even put family in their name, Family Film Transfer. To find out more, go to familyfilm transfer dot com. All right, let's jump back into the show. there was a an Israeli general who said, you know, it's always best to just be a little bit paranoid. I can see that. Sure, definitely. You know, that when you read all the public situations nowadays for sure. Yes. I'm this is you know, here we are in mid May and over the weekend in in Italy. I just can't remember the exact city right. Modena, in Modena, Italy, a man of well I I'm not gonna get into ethnicity, but a man in a vehicle drove at a hundred kilometers per hour into a crowded res crowded pedestrian shopping area. Ouch struck struck thirty two people, one woman was so badly injured she had to have both her legs amputated. Then when the car came to a stop, he got out and began knife people. Holy cow. And ultimately was subdued by four bystanders who held him until he was taken away by police. Okay. Wow. Okay. So yeah, it's it's happening. It's it's here now. Indeed. It's not it's not a matter of if it's when. Yeah, there you go. That's a good way to put it. Right. And so how do how do you live at peace with that? You have to have the support around it that keeps you from ending up in a situation where in the the Spielberg film Munich, the Mossad officer who was chasing the the terrorists that planned and executed that that event mostly was warned that you will become so So afraid that when you sleep, you'll be sitting up in a closet holding your gun holding your pistol underneath while sitting underneath a mattress. And one of the later scenes when he goes to sleep, he's in a closet underneath a mattress holding his gun. And that's how he sleeps. Right. So how do you keep from getting there? That's that's the support. So if one of our viewers is watching this and they belong to a house of worship I in in whatever context it would be. prioritizing that, think, wow, we don't really have this. If they were to call you or come to you, would your first suggestion be to do the the health training? Did you say that was most common? Would it be the the the the defense? Because that could be the most damage or the how gen generically speaking, what did you think your first party would be if they came to you and said, we can only afford this, what would you how would you suggest to them? I would begin with medical training. Absolutely. On the shadow of a doubt. Because that is going to be your first most likely emergency. All right. You're gonna have you're gonna have a heart attack or a stroke. You're gonna have somebody injured in the kitchen. You're gonna have somebody slip and fall. there is so you need emergency first aid, CPR, make sure you're you're you're facility is properly equipped with fundamental first aid supplies and tools. That's what I would teach first. Also, I would heavily recommend a mental health first aid class that people are able to recognize early on somebody who's in trouble. Somebody because so many of the domestic terrorists were originally the dis di is are are were disenfranchised people who wanted to just hurt those he f they felt disenfranchised them. And so when you if like how to spot when someone is isolating and it's and the the the warning spotting a suspicious person, not spotting the signs of heart am I having a stroke or a heart attack? All of the above. I'm talking about all of those. Okay. Right. These are all different things reading people and people watching and just keeping your eyes open and being alert to what's happening regardless of what that is. Right. And knowing what you're seeing. I mean, somebody who is untrained can see somebody who is actually having a stroke and think they're drunk. Yeah. Okay. But how do you assess them for that? How do you assess all this stuff and you know There's you know, how do you assess for each one of these different things and being aware of it? And this can all be achieved through three separate trainings that are no more than three hours apiece because after three hours people just get saturated. And so that's your recommended regiment. It's like, hey, do these three classes over three separate times and that'll give your congregation a good base and then kind of go from there. Let's see what they feel like they need. help with. Let's see what their what your leadership team decides is their priorities. And then whatever that is, you can help them further with their training based upon now that they've had your initial three classes, how what else they want to focus on to better protect their and then at that point and depending on the support of the leadership, both the the spiritual leadership and the lay leadership. How far into the security preparations they're gonna get into? You know, are they will they first at least follow the concept of single point entry and exit? Are they, you know, is the facility set up to do that, you know, or is it a facility such as some of the much larger churches where they have to, because of the volume of people, they have four they have four, you know, their primary entry and exit is four separate doors. Yeah, you have to the biggest sure. Right. And then how do you how do you manage that? and how do you So you have a team at each entrance. At each major entrance, you've got a team of people there all trained at to different levels. You've got the five foot three old ladies and you've got the the curly management. Yeah, and you've got the six four, three hundred pound guy who just stands there, you know? Yeah and you find out that actually she's tougher than he is. Okay. She has to be. He could just knock you over by sneezing. She's really gotta work at it. Yes. Right. But you know, and he may just be there for looks. You know? Yeah. He may not be there for Right. You know, yeah. He's just he's just this real sweet guy. He's just enormous. Yeah. And there's you know, or you could be like a member of our congregation. He's In his early thirties in college he was a competitive wrestler and now he's a bodybuilder, so he's what six two, about three hundred pounds. Yeah. Yeah. That's a pr pretty big tough guy. Pretty big tough guy. Yeah, for sure. Right. And and the thing is though, what he's absolutely fantastic at is smiling at someone and having that very pleasant expression that is disarming. And that's why he's on the greeting team. Right. Because his facade is that he's a gentle giant. Yeah. But don't fall for it. Okay? Don't fall for it. he's quite he's quite capable. Hm so that would be like an ideal kind of guy because he is so pleasant. Yeah. You know? He is just so pleasant and that is ideal. you want to be welcoming to new people coming into your absolute worship. There yeah, there is a phenomenally great resource that's online and growing and positive and it's called Christian Warrior Training. Christian Warrior Training. Okay. Absolutely. He has that the website Christian Christian Warrior Training dot com. Dot com. Yep. And they he has just he has a statement that says that the church must be open and welcoming and safe. Okay. All right. So it's how do you and he has hunt just right now I know he has dozens of training videos for free that if you want to start there, start there. But when it comes down to the You know, the hands on medical stuff and the hands, you know, how do you handle a fire you can't get that online. That's right. You're trying to learn a hand skill online. You can't do it. You can't do that. Yeah. You need to do it. You need to carry it out, slide and have that muscle memory. So I know my gun jammed, I gotta you know, rack and you know boom. You gotta know what to do. I'm gonna be picky here. You were racking like this, never rack like that. Always rack like this. Okay. That's that's your that's your gun plan that's your gun lesson for today. I'm helping you out there. You did. You did awesome. Thank you. Perfect. So speaking of websites, how would people get a hold of you? They're watching and say, hey, this is great. I want to participate in this. How does someone get a hold of you? Nefeshdefense.com. So it's just like the mug. Yeah. Just like the mug dot com. Okay. And that's where I'm at. It's actually a small Shopify website, and you can It'll link you to my USCCA page to schedule for classes and See what else is going. Yeah, that's does the Nefesh Defense dot com is the webpage. and if it's if you don't see a class you want, give me a call because there's a there you go. There's so much that can be flexible and everything I do is tailored specifically to the client, is tailored specifically to the people that are there. I remember when in one of my trainings I was down in Florida, I spent a week with Israeli tactical school learning o learning executive protection. And you know, there are things that are done in that in that area of protection that apply to very immediately to basically everybody. Okay as far as House of Worship security. And then there are some that only apply in specific applications in specific environments. So everything there there is no one size fits all. I was asked the other day, so if somebody wants to begin carrying, he needs a concealed carry pistol, what do you recommend? And I said, you know, what do you mean? He goes, Well, just an average guy. Well, if fifty percent of the people are above average and fifty percent of the people are below average, there is no average guy. There is no average guy. Right. So it's like well, first of all, how tall are they? What do they weigh? What are they, you know, what is their physical dexter what is their physical dexterity like? You know, are they you know are do they recommend weapon, you're saying there are probably no less than ten top the top ten choices in general in the marketplace are outstanding competitors. Okay. Okay. and that's just by manufacturer. So if I were to take I don't know, four or five different manufacturers, yeah, you know, Smith and Wesson, Glock, FN, Ruger, you know, SIG, yeah, there are five right there that they all they all have Absolutely reliable, affordable pistols that all compete immediately with each other. Yeah. But how you know, what feels right in your hand? Okay. I'm sort of this oddball outlier. I I carry a an IWI Masada, which is which is a hog leg of a gun for a guy my size. and it's in Israel Israeli weapons industries. So it's like, yeah, I I I I'm that guy. you're that I'm that guy. but it fits me and I'm effective with it. Yeah. And you know, I've on a good day I've I've got down to a a one and a half second draw. So in one and a half seconds I can go f I can draw the weapon from concealment and hit a target at fifty feet. Effectively. And do you would you recommend like a Hollow point so it spreads out and doesn't keep going through the walls, or is there a certain type of ammunition you would recommend for that type of house of worship situation? There are several things. The first, my the primary concern, and you know, I I kind of want to you know there are sp there's standards that are understood in defensive firearms that there is a problem called over penetration. Yeah. And And that is an enormous risk in House of Worship Security because you may end up trying to pick one guy out of a crowd, which means that whatever's there's that what's behind him matters. There are four fundamental safety rules of firearms. You know, treat all firearms as if they're loaded. never point the firearm at anything you're unwilling to destroy. Do not touch the trigger until your sights are aligned and you're ready to fire. And the fourth one is know what is behind, know know your target and what is behind it. Okay. That fourth that fourth principle of safety and with with a firearm is paramount when you get into that. Absolutely. Sure. One of the trainings that I do with House of Worship security teams, I refer to as you're gonna hate this title, but it's church lobby dodgeball. my god. Okay. Yeah. All right. Move through move through a crowd of no shoot targets that all are pictures of human beings to find the one guy with the gun, but there are also targets, you know, off to his sides and behind him, and you have to you have to place that shot on that target that it doesn't hit any of the innocent ones. And the unexpected person coming out of who knows where, even if you don't see them in the background, boom, all of a sudden, situation like that. Anything could be happening from anywhere. Right. There's movement always. And there are I mean it's like there are a lot of people who go into that and they they come out the other end and they go, I had no idea. Yeah I had no idea. So, I have wor it was it was interesting. I was working with with one gentleman. He is a top competitive target shooter. I mean we're talking yeah, we're talking about being able to put ten rounds into a space that would be half the size of a three by five inches. In a controlled situation at a gun range. completely. Right. He is standing perfectly still with, you know, a specific one hand grip. The guy's got a grip that would crush you not walnut not not walnuts but lug nuts and but okay now I need you to in between shots move off the X. When the phrase move off the X is don't stand in one place because when you're on quote unquote the X, that is the target the bad guy has found you on. You are now in the middle of the target. You want to get off of that because then the the bad guy has to reorient his point of of aim. So you get off the target, he has to turn and look. You are now you have now gotten ahead of him and can do what you can to stop the threat. and he had it was like, wow, what do I do? it's it suddenly this guy who, you know, not a young man, but was thrown off. It completely threw off everything he was doing. He's like, I I yeah what how do I do that? It's like, yes. Now you've got to put the two and two together. Would you recommend because we've all seen those no gun signs you know a door coming into a place. If your house of worship has them, would you recommend publicizing that, warning you're entering a place that has this or we we defend ourselves or just being quiet about that or just not putting a sticker up or what are your thoughts on that? My thoughts on that go back to my love of film. in in the in the Clint Eastwood classic High Plains Drifter, he says there's a line that the bad guy that that Clint Eastwood's character says, the man with no name says is what's what people it is what people know about themselves that makes them afraid. I would just take down all the signs. Take down all the signs. Don't tell anyone anything. Because if you put a sign up there that says yes, we will defend ourselves, that's a challenge. And if you put up a sign if you yeah, and if you put a sign up that says this is a gun free zone, that's an invitation. That's an i yeah, yeah, yeah, I could see that. Right. So, you know, in any one of those I think a I would think a sign that says, Hey, we defend ourselves could scare some people away, like, I don't want to go into that place. I'm gonna go to a safe church. These guys are nutballs or however they might look at it. If you have two, you know, two or three people out greeting pe out gr out as greeters and the two people in front are greeting and the third guy is in the back, you know, maybe up two stairs and he's got his head on a swivel, they will see that. They'll see that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Understand that you don't need this sign. Just given that your your presence and your cadence is gonna kinda just elude Hey, we're about safety and we've got eyes on you and we're we're careful and we're protective and we we love our body. Yeah, don't put up a sign, be the sign. All right. Be that which's good way to put it. Yeah. You know, it's like you got cameras up, make sure that they're visible. I don't see a need to to try to camouflage a camera. You want that camera visible. You want your the there's certain aspects of the of the the hardening, the target hardening that you want visible. Sure. Okay. Okay. So that people note like, hey, wait a minute, every twenty minutes or so somebody comes out and walks around the outside of the building. huh. You know, out here in the middle of the parking lot and they're checking all the cars. All right. If nothing else that keeps you know, on the for the for the large houses of worship that have big parking lots and have big populations, you need that because People want steal stuff out of cars. I mean that is the We'll move on to an easier target. Because exactly that. Every attack always has pre attack surveillance. Every? I would as my assumption is that every attack has pre attack surveillance. That is actually a smaller percentage. That's a small thing. Okay. That is a much smaller percentage now. At one time, yes, that was a larger percentage. Now it is very focused because of the very heavy effort put into recruiting and radicalizing as many people, as many as many poor folks as possible. You know? The So now it's more of a planned terrorist attack type of a situation. So just by being aware And giving that presence is the best defense is to say, hey, we're prepared. Don't even try it. We're on top of this and we got you covered. Yes. And the you know, it's like the old phrase, what are the three letters a a what are the three letters a bad guy never wants to hear? I see you. I see you. Yeah. Right. It's like that's that's where it'll end up. but you know, you don't they don't want to be seen, all right, until the last minute. even the Bloomfield, Michigan attack. the assailant did pre attack surveillance for a couple of months. Trying to find out what day was good. So even in the parking lot then, that sounds like that's something you could do with if your stranger's approaching the parking lot. If they didn't even make it inside, if you're you're a it's that that five three old woman again coming out of the parking lot, would you just advise her to keep her heads up and like, Hey, I'm gonna eyeball you and she sees a stranger instead of like staying away, it's like, Hey, I'm gonna you know, I'm looking at you, pal. I'm noticing you Hey, I hope you're enjoying the episode and pulling some good valuable stuff from it. That's why we do this. We're still a new podcast, we're getting our footing, so your support means a lot. If you're getting something out of this, would you please take a quick moment to like and subscribe or rate and view or whatever your thing allows? It's free and it helps me to help others find us. So thank you so much. Truly glad you're here with us. Now, not everybody has the personality to want to go do that. For those people who don't have the personality to go and say, Hey buddy, how you doing? Welcome to our house of worship. Where are you from? How'd you hear of us? If but they see something, it's it's what the government's been telling us for years. See something, say something. That if they see somebody who's suspicious, they're gonna walk up to a greeter or to an usher and go, Hey You know, three rows over, there's a guy in a blue, you know, pinto who just has been sitting there talking to himself. He's not on a phone. It's like he just looks like he's talking to himself. It's like, all right, well, we'll go talk. You know, maybe at that point the and this is very important that teams have radios, they radio the officer and the officer, the the law enforcement officer will go and interview this person. And they may get there and find out, no, the guy's on the phone, you know. Yeah he goes, Yeah, yeah, I'm on the phone and I I'll be going in here in about five minutes. I know the service is about to start. No what I was asking you to say there's a there's a single woman on her way back out to the car after the service and she notices someone in the parking lot. She would say stop. Would you recommend going back into the church then or the house of worship and finding a security to to escort you out? Would you recommend she just goes to her car quickly or they make eye contact? No, I would recommend I would recommend getting assistance, getting an escort. Get that escort if she feels like someone's suspicious, stop, go back inside and Absolutely. Absolutely. Have someone walk you to your car. And there's that is enormous to to do that. at at our synagogue, once it gets dark, we walk everybody to the car. I don't care. Okay. Yeah. I it's like You know, I walked people half my age to the car. It's it's that doesn't matter. Why? Because the deaf one person's right. Thank you. That's that will I'm sure get you an extra slice of raisin pie. Twenty year olds, God. I guess that filter I put on is working. okay, so the yeah, because the person going out to their car, what are they thinking about? What are they looking at? They've got their you know, if it's maybe it's a woman who's looking through her purse to get her keys. And it's a guy who's got his hand in his pocket to get his keys out and and he's maybe he's, you know, wrangling his children. They've got their head in that and in that world. My head is I'm I'm looking out I'm looking out that and that's probably another tip. If you're in that situation where you're walking back out to your car, don't be distracted with someone out there. Have your headphones on, have your head have your head down on your phone or something. Keep your eye up and look around. Look for those warning signs to know if, hey, I should head back in and get an escort and to see, hey, who's out there. Don't make yourself an easy target by not even being aware of your surroundings. That is absolutely true. And that is that is referred to as situational awareness. And that is that is an aspect that we teach in all of our concealed carry classes and especially in the House of Worship safety team classes. It's a little different focus in the House of Worship safety team clo classes as it is in the personal, you know, concealed carry handgun classes and you know, home safety classes. Because for personal safety, we teach things like, okay, when you go to the to the gas station, one, put your phone in your pocket, two, have your credit card out of your wallet before you get out of the car. And while you're getting that credit things. Right. And while you've got their your but while before you get out of the car, have you done a three sixty check? You've got mirrors on that car. Okay. Did you you know is there anybody leaning loitering or walking towards your car that looks suspicious to you? If you have any gut feeling that's wrong, drive. Just get out of there. Period. Just go. and two, when you, you know Pay your you you pay for your when you get out of the car, lock your car. You have your keys in your hand, lock your car when you get out. There has been a the many, many surveillance videos of gas stations where somebody gets out of their car on the passenger side, right? Sure. And they go to the back of the vehicle and they're putting gas in and they're just watching and then they stand and they stare at the pump. People do that. They will just stand there and watch the numbers change. And somebody then then the the bad guy sneaks into their car through the passenger side door, gets over the It's not just about personal protecting yourself, you're protecting your car as well. All of the above. And it's and when it ha and so many times when young parents will have they've got a minivan, they pull up to the to the pump, they get out, whatever, the kids were distracting them, they get out, they're pumping gas. It's maybe they're two minutes in the day when they're peaceful. Okay, when they're not hearing their kids yelling their name. And you know, they're watching the pump and somebody sneaks into their car and drives off, not only with their car, but with their children. Their baby in the back, yeah, yeah. Right. That is that's happened so many horrible times. And so yeah, it's about self defense. There have also been times where that has happened where instead of stealing the car. The person sneaks in, hides in the back seat, and waits for the person to drive away from the gas station and then assaults them. Okay. So just be aware. It sounds like that's one of the key key takeaways here. Just be aware at all times. Right. And it you it's not about being, you know There's yeah, we've been on the high we've all been on the highway where we see those signs that say, Be alert. Okay. I was and I was and after seeing hundreds of them, 'cause my wife and I do road trips all the time, and after after seeing like like twenty or thirty of these signs, I said, Can you tell me what is a alert? L E R T. What is the what is the species known as alert? Yeah, is that does it look like one of those like alert? Right. One of those tiny monkeys with eyeballs that look like softballs. It's like big ears, big eyeballs, and just like constantly wound up. It's like, yeah, it's you don't need to do that. there is you can you can maintain a level of situational awareness and not be panicked. Okay. Because I know there's a phrase that's out there panic kills. right. When you panic, you have shut down your higher Brain functions. Okay. Okay. You are running on emotion and not on logic. And that's what kills. Yeah. Okay. So it sounds like being alert is a key thing in in every one of these situations. Be alert, aware of your surroundings, and no basic healthcare medical techniques in those types of situations. And just be prepared for that too, for safety things, for medical situations. And just be prepared, be trained. And be prepared, be trained, and be and alert. Be alert and be be calm. Calm. Calm. That is right. Yeah, that's a good one. Okay. If you if the people who are constantly on edge, people who are just like okay, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Okay. Yeah. you want you wanna have the the personality nervous and unsure you're making yourself a target. Right. It's not just that. You wanna have the presentation of you know how they're frequently you will find that big dogs are kind of slow going, kinda happy. You know, we've we have bred human beings have bred, you know, big dogs to be, you know, very pleasant. Yeah. And you wanna be that dogs that are nervous and yippy. Right. Don't be don't be a panicked poodle, you know, it's like you want calm. Gotcha. All right. you've given us some great tips and some good foundations in that, but I I like to ask people also if you have an unrelated passion or something else that kinda is is all about you that you really care about that we haven't had a chance to touch on yet. Is there a you have an unrelated passion you'd like to share with Absolutely. Absolutely. And that is I there's it's it's sort of a convoluted process, but it goes this way. I love nature. I I I grew up in Southern California and I had access to the deserts and the ocean and the mountains and I was in the Boy Scouts and we would do week long backpacking trips in the high Sierra. And I fell in love with the sense of of freedom and of calm, of that serenity of being in and with nature. And the way I described it is that after a couple of days I could sit on the side of the mountain, I could feel the rhythm of the earth. And that was yeah. That I could have that oneness. I experienced something that was absolutely you know, I point to the most singularly powerful spiritual spiritual experience of my life. Now I d I'm not a parent, so I've never seen the birth of a child. So I would assume that that would be much more powerful. But I was at the Grand Canyon. And it was watching the dawn, the winter sun rise into the Grand Canyon. And you know, as as a as a recovering visual artist, for me, it was it was it was immense. It was like I was to the point where the the colors and the light and you have to understand that I I don't have a lot of fear. I don't have a fear of heights. I have a fear of ladders. I have a fear but I don't have a fear of heights. And so I would always panic my poor wife, who will never get closer than a body length and a step to a to an edge of anything. She will never get closer than a body length and a step because she thinks that if you trip and fall, you're still not gonna go over the side. Okay. So you know there is logic to that. I got that. Yeah. Okay. For sure. I don't really I don't really care. As long as I'm, you know, my toes aren't hanging over the edge, I'm fine, you know. and so I I knew I could I had my little flashlight and I could see where the edge of the Grand Canyon was. Okay. From here, you know, and from one step further out is two thousand feet straight down. Okay, I'm not going any closer than that. Not doing that, yeah. Nope. And I and there was a big rock there and I kind of parked myself on it and I just watched as this dawn rose into the canyon. Wow. And there was this moment where the visuals were so powerful and the energy of the environment was so powerful, I could hear the symphony of the universe playing at once. Wow. And so something you just have to experience. You gotta be there. You have to be in it. You have to be in it. It wasn't just the color. It wasn't just the the way it changed. It wasn't the power of it. of realizing the the immense force that the sun has on the planet. Gotcha. It wasn't just the gravity of the of the space. It wasn't it was it was that before me there had been a black abyss of dang. Just total this black abyss and then suddenly it bl it just ex it just glowed and exploded with light. Okay. And and took me to a place that I have yet to find again, but I will always remember I have that. I have that That's what keeps me going. And it's it's have you always kind of been an outdoorsy guy or was just after that, you know, epiphany if you that epiphany occurred in you know twenty years ago. But when I st I I was it was natural for me from the time I was ten. It's like that's where I wanted to be. I wanted to be outdoors. I wanted to be away from civilization, out in the sticks. And it was funny because I grew up in a very academic family, you know. Education and live in cities and do jobs for corporations and it's like, nah. No. Not for you. No. No. I'm not not interested. I'm a terrible employee. I I'm I'm gonna go do my own thing. and so you do a lot of camping then too, to be outside or you just want to get out and I di I have in the past. but you know, you know, I the woman I'm the beautiful, amazing, glorious woman that somehow I convinced to marry me. was at one time a first class girl scout. So it's not that she hasn't she loves the outdoors too. But we're both but she determined that she's at the age and at the position in life now where it's like, no, I want a hot shower and I want a comfortable bed and I want to be able to I like my air conditioning. You know? Indoor plumbing's kind of kind of that's sort of right. That the indoor plumbing was paramount. Yeah, but she she tolerates a lot of my silliness, you know, and so I get my outdoor time doing things like splitting my own firewood and cutting down trees and things like that. So you know, I get that. But this love of of the natural world, you know, intersects with the fact that you know, and this is all part of that that other passion, and that is that we have so distorted the food we eat. that I I then and I am the canary in the coal mine for this because I have so many food I have so many food sensitivities that I could I could starve to death in a grocery store. Now I Okay. My genetics my genetics were the same as the day I was born, but the food changed. See when I was a child, I could eat chicken, I could eat wheat, I could eat all anything that came because it wasn't so modified and poisoned. So, you know, this and one of the key I mean they're like I could just point to one chemical that is in use that is horrible. Absolutely horrible. And that is glyphosate. Okay. And you know, glyphosate. It's the active ingredient in Roundup. And yeah. Right. And they st give you an idea of the insidious nature of what we've done to ourselves. This is what we've done to ourselves. That wheat farmers now will spray glyphosate on their wheat three weeks before harvest so that it dies standing there. Now there's a problem with that. Now it's great for the great for the farmer. Yeah. So that's great for the farmer because then they have three weeks of it drying in the sun. so that when they harvest it, it has a much lower moisture content, less mold. Right. More of it gets to market, et cetera, et cetera. There's only one problem. Glyphosphates are systemic. They stay in the wheat. that if you were to get a loaf of bread made with this wheat and were to do a full chemical analysis of it, it would have a percentage of glyphosate in it. it is also because it is systemic and it gets into water supplies, things like California wines now have glyphos now have glyphosate in it. no. Okay. And there are people, people I know who up until a few years ago were able to to drink, you know, this kind of wine or have that kind of wine, you know, a glass of wine with dinner, and then they realized that they would have a glass of wine, they get a splitting headache. But imported wine. So it's not so much that they changed, but the the food or the wine and the floor. Food changed. Yeah. Food changed. Okay. Yeah, because the glyphosate was getting into the water that was being used on on the on the vineyards for the wine and it's systemic so it got into the plant. Now it now you can't get it out. And when you look into like the the lower Mississippi and the lower Arkansas River, because it flows through farmland, guess what they're finding in the fish? Glyphosate. And they're finding it in the ocean. Right. Wow. And so you have this really horrible chemical. It's like, yeah. And you know If if the if we could stop doing just one thing, that would be a really good thing to stop. So it it's a destruction of our natural environment that is is if we find is is affecting us health-wise in our foods, in our homes, in in in our schools, everywhere we go. We are we're poisoning ourselves. And between that and man wants to remake the earth in his image or in some strange way as opposed to that God didn't have it right when he built it. You know, the the old the joke from the movie God when when when George Burns Yeah with George Burns and George Burns says, Yeah, I kind of screwed up the avocado. I made the pit too big. You know it's like No, it's like I don't believe that. Okay. Yeah, there are avocados that have some pretty big pits, but there are some that don't. I don't care. But the point is, like, so here in Indiana, there there was at one time the Kankakee wetlands, and they were the largest wetlands in all of the continental United States. And it was, you know, all the way until the beginning of the twentieth century. And, you know, hunters like Theodore Roosevelt would come out here to hunt deer. And ducks and and and trap wild game and it was just wow teeming. It was massive. There were huge lakes full of fish. You know, you the crappie were enormous. It was like great. And so then somebody decided that, hey, you know, this is all swampland. Why don't we just, you know, hire a bunch of people who know how to drain swampland and turn it into farmland and we'll sell it cheap. and they did. And they destroyed the largest wetlands in the country. And now it's covered with soybeans and so it's all it's all monocropping. Okay. It's just massive now in the Midwest here. Corn and soybeans, yeah. Okay. And it's I I find it really yeah. It sounds like really saying even with food, it's getting back to that be aware. So the the safety to a church, safety in your food, be aware of what's going on, what's happening, and just know keep yourself being aware, keep stay educated, keep your eyes open. Know what's going in your body, knowing what's happening in your surroundings, and just be aware and stay safe. Yeah, there's it's basically three consecutive three concentric circles. Know what's going on in the world. All right. You can't change it. You can't change it, but if you know what is going on at least you know what's going on in the world, you can be prepared to roll with it. Know what's going on, you know, the next step is your community, which may be your city, your state, your county. All right. Know what's going on around in that area because that's what's going to affect you immediately. And then and then know what's going on in your closest circle, yourself, your family. Okay. Be aware and stay in communication. the every family has its own dynamics. All right. Some families people get along pretty well and other families Not so much. Not so much. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, you know, and in families with a lot of kids, I'll bet you at some point you've looked at your children and go, How did I f you know, parent that? You know? It's like kids. You know. Yeah, it's like, no, not yours. Not ever. You know, but I'm sure at some point I'm I'm assuming that as it happened in my house, at some point one parent will turn to the other parent referring to me and go, Do you know what your son did today? What your son did. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's like, I I I don't I don't own this one. This is yours. Yeah. Yeah. All right. In situations like that, find, I I I implore you, find a method of communicating. Just even if it's basic, know know they're alive, know they're well, you know, be aware that, okay, you have like I said, have a plan. Have a communications plan to stay in touch. So that if God forbid something happens, you know where everybody is, how everybody is, you know, and how to how to get in touch with each other. So yeah, it is about awareness. It's all awareness. That's great. That sounds like the perfect place to wrap up then, Jonathan. Thank you so much. Really appreciate you spending your time with us and your your wealth of knowledge and your thousands of hours of training. And thank you so much. We really appreciate that. John, thank you much for the opportunity. Bless you, bless the family. And may we all have peace in this world, and if we just behaved like good neighbors, we might get there. Amen to that. Sounds real good. Thank you. Appreciate it again. Take care. Be safe. Bye bye. Genuine security isn't about fear, it's about awareness, being prepared, taking simple precautions, and taking care of people you see walking through those doors every week. A safe community is a stronger community. Sometimes the smallest changes can make the biggest difference. If you found value in today's conversation, I encourage you to share this episode with your church, your synagogue, or any faith community. If you found value in today's conversation, I encourage you to share this episode with your church, your synagogue, or any community security team. Really anyone who cares about protecting their community. Much of this is really easy and free. Thanks again for watching. Until next time, stay prepared. Stay curious and tell a friend. What's been on y'all?