speaker-0: Faith Baptist Church in Taylor's presents This Week in the Word.

speaker-1: Welcome back to This Week in the Word at FBC Taylors or you can really look it for us anywhere you get your podcast. I'm joined again by Pastor Mark Herbster. Thank you for joining us. And today is part two of a conversation we started last week.

speaker-0: Yeah, it's a and a great day to do it because tomorrow is election day. Tomorrow's election in great US of A.

speaker-1: That's right.

speaker-0: So it's pretty important pretty important that we're t continue to talk about the Christian and politics and how we how we engage

speaker-1: We're sitting here November second and the elections tomorrow. Y some have already done their voting. Early voting is done. last time we were together we talked about the Christian and politics and we introduced conversation fodder, even related to what really matters when it comes to voting.

speaker-0: Yeah, and we were talking last time about the the really the core worldview issues that really stand out with political candidates. Sure. Which typically define some of the platforms between the Republicans and Democrats, and which we were highlighting as the main issues that really determine who we vote for. I mean things like marriage, marriage, and abortion abortion. Gender religious liberties, educational liberties, gender, gender issues, which seems to be so much confusion about these things. Though those are core worldview issues which w which come up all the time in our political conversations.

speaker-1: And the question now becomes so if you had a politician that agreed with you on all of those things that you just listed, or most, and was in character less than ideal, less than Christian perhaps even. Right. But because they're red, we vote for them. Is that how the church is somehow voting? And so people that's an accusation in the form of a question. Why do Christians give politicians a pass? It's an accusation in the form of a question.

speaker-0: Right. And I think that really the question itself kind of assumes that we are giving the pass right to the politicians like we wouldn't give in other areas. And I think that the the answer to that is we're really not. We're really not giving a pass. We're considering all of the information that we have and realizing that elections have consequences. And the consequences you it are hard to revert back. I mean we see that right now with the consequences of Of our previous administration. take just the border issue alone and how President Trump and our new administration is having to reestablish a safe border. You don't have a nation if you don't have a border, and he's taken years to get it back to what happened with the 20 million people that were allowed into our country. So the election of Joe Biden had consequences that we're still trying to recover from. And and that's why I don't think that we we need to think think of it this way. We're not giving a pass because we're really not voting for a Christian leader. We're we're voting for a political leader, a government leader. And and government leaders make decisions about who they put in charge, they make decisions about judicial nominees, they make decisions about laws. They they they are the leader of our government, they're not the leader of our church. We're not giving them a pass. It's a valid question.

speaker-1: But it it's a it is it's a valid question in the sense that I've certainly heard it, you've certainly heard it before. And and it's one that I want I think it's good for us as pastors to speak to because it's a it's a wrestling match because you're saying these are leaders, but their character is not something I would want my kids to have in some cases. Are we somehow lowering the standards for politicians?

speaker-0: Right. And I think that is a valid question. And to be fair, the scripture says, I have a couple verses here. The scripture says that we want righteous, godly leaders. Proverbs twenty-nine, verse two. When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice. But when the wicked bear rule, the people mourn. That's a wonderful reference that helps us to see that we really should be looking for people that match our values as closely as possible, that are promoting righteousness. Proverbs sixteen, verse twelve. It is an abomination to kings to commit wickedness, whatever that wickedness is. Right. And of course we know that there as we as I just mentioned, there are levels of things that are like absolute dogmatic issues that we cannot fudge on. And then there's character issues that everybody has problems in in their character, including all of us. We're sinners saved by grace. But we we do want, I mean, ideally we want leaders that are both. They have Right policies, right worldview, and right character. Because Proverbs 1612 says, For the throne is established by righteousness. So elections have consequences far beyond just the personal conduct of that person. And that's why that's why I know there's this tension. It it feels like maybe we're giving a pass on a leader that doesn't, you know, let's say they use vulgar language, which we have. We have that. Daily proof of okay. Let's you know, w it looks like we're giving them a pass, but we as Christians are not okay with that kind of language.

speaker-1: Well let's use our let's use another example. you're the family pastor at Faith Baptist. We have set what we believe to be a biblical ideal for the family.

speaker-0: Yeah, right.

speaker-1: do the leaders president that we have represent the kind of family biblical ideals that we are trying to postulate from script absolutely.

speaker-0: Absolutely not. Absolutely not. I think there would be very few categories where we would see full agreement on how to run a Christian home with

speaker-1: Yeah.

speaker-0: with frankly any of the presidents in my lifetime, including Ronald Reagan, by the way.

speaker-1: Which which actually leads us to something. And and and something that I'm very help thankful for. And I I might want to encourage our listeners in this way. We like to hear from from people. It really does help us. we record these things and we're wondering, is anybody number one, is anybody listening? Yeah. And number two, if if they are, how can we help better articulate questions that they have? And so when we get an email from someone, it's very, very helpful. Yeah. At times It does. At times we get emails, frankly, that that the individual would just rather not put on the screen here in a moment. But to but this week I actually did get an email from someone. He was kind enough to say, you're welcome to use the wording of my email and respond. We're going to keep his email name anonymous. We can come up with a fun name. Or we did this before with Pastor Fisher on music and had Curious George write an email. so whoever this individual is, first of all, thank you for being willing to write us and wrestle through these issues. And so we're gonna articulate it. And before I go any further, I want our other listeners to know he and I have already engaged in email correspondence and gracious, kind, godly, he's seeking to wrestle through it. We as individuals may not land everywhere, this individual does, and he knows that, we know that. But we love him in the Lord. He loves us in the Lord and and we are trying to seek to wrestle through a political conversation. Which is

speaker-0: Yes. And and this has historically been an issue that that tends to divide Christians, but we should show grace and liberty and humility. And really it truly truly I mean this. When you go to vote, that's your decision. You're accountable to vote and it's your it's your conscience. And and really we should love people and help them and encourage them to vote according their conscience.

speaker-1: Christians can have hard conversations.

speaker-0: Absolutely. And smile. We can actually smile and enjoy it.

speaker-1: This is a good conversation to think that it's in November, because we're all thinking in terms of the Thanksgiving dinner conversation where everybody's fighting over politics or right? Yeah. So

speaker-0: Yeah. For sure.

speaker-1: this is a great opportunity for us to respond to someone. And so let's just walk through this. And I'm gonna read it and I'm gonna let you to be the first to respond to each of these slides as we come through it. There's no way we're gonna get through all of the email but pertinent things. Yes. You'll see on the screen it says there's twenty-four slides. I doubt we'll get through all of them. But I I've highlighted some things that may be Worthy of it. It begins this way. It says, Hey, Pastor Caleb. I've listened to all of the FBC podcasts as they come up, and up until now I've had any objections to them. First of all, thank you for listening to all of them. This week, however, was a major disappointment from my perspective. Given how estranged I am from the prevailing political views in our circles, I am surprised that it wasn't to my liking, but I felt it merited a response. And I'm

speaker-0: Right. Yeah.

speaker-1: Glad he did that. He starts with this though. He says, I'll start by laying my cards on the table. To this day I consider myself a Reaganite conservative, and I would agree that it would be much better if the biblical views of abortion, gender, and marriage were embraced and promoted in the wider culture and in our laws.

speaker-0: Yeah, and and honestly in this first statement, he's articulating what we what we even articulated last time. Sure. And that these are the main issues. But it's interesting that he calls out Reagan. And we mentioned this just briefly already. Right. Because if we're gonna say we're giving people a pass, then in a sense Reagan got a pass. And I I can speak about this very clearly because my own grandfather, who I believe is now in heaven, he died a number of years ago, he absolutely resisted voting for Ronald Reagan and primarily because of this one reason. Right. He was a divorced man and a remarried man and and actually promoted divorce.

speaker-1: Yeah, as a governor of the state of California, he was the one that really ushered into our country. No fault divorce.

speaker-0: Okay, so if we're gonna talk about giving a pass, even with Reagan, what are we gonna say? We can't support what he stood for. And and we would have these conversations, my grandpa and I, and my my dad and my grandpa as well, because he was refusing to vote the and he would say, you guys are inconsistent because he's a divorced man. Right. And and and what this brings up is a serious conversation about, okay, what what are the issues that would demand that I cannot vote for that candidate?

speaker-1: If I'm not mistaken, the university both of us are graduates of Bob Jones, the president at that time was also posed to to Reagan when he first became

speaker-0: Yeah, maybe that's true. I don't remember that, but that

speaker-1: But

speaker-0: and maybe we wouldn't have voted for him in the primary, but can we all look back and agree that President Reagan was a phenomenal president, I think, across the conservative movement, even as our listener is testifying.

speaker-1: Now he indicates

speaker-0: Amazing president.

speaker-1: and then I want to go to some slides that you've provided me that respond back to it because he indicates and says, in my younger years, granted to many I'm still quite young, I was a Rush Limbaugh fan and could have classified as a talk radio conservative. Yes in twenty sixteen, however, I could not get on the Trump train and began a shift in my approach to politics more generally. And he continues to ticulate in the in this email basically he he couldn't ever vote for Trump for a number of different reasons, and he's not the only Christian I've ever heard say that. Right. You just indicated Reagan had things that Christians in his life were opposed and should be opposed to. Yet God used him to move in a conservative direction in this country. Could we say the same thing for Trump now that he's been president for

speaker-0: I think the verdict will still be out on Trump later, it is, we have the clear evidence on Reagan this day, to this day. Sure. Historically. I think though, even in current events and current, even literally things that are happening right now. one of the examples I I want to use is the is how President Trump, along with all of our presidents, they have to pick leadership. Yep. Okay. There's a slide I gave you about the leadership that he is h he the c some of the cabinet members. And really we could list we could list a whole bunch more. These are just a few examples that I wanted to highlight about some of the cabinet members, remembering that part of the role of the governing president, leader, and really every leader has to appoint staff. They have to they have to hire people. Right. So when they appoint people, it's who they appoint that reveals to us the core of their worldview and what are they trying to accomplish. And you see the kinds of people a couple of these guys, Doug C Doug Collins and Scott Turner, I I believe are actually have have had a ministerial experience in the Baptist church. Right. Now, the religious affiliation is not necessarily the most important thing because we can have religiously affiliated people who stand with us on these worldview priorities. Sure. It's the worldview priorities. And let me just highlight one particular person that I have be h I've followed a lot because my son in law is in the military and that is our

speaker-1: Before we go to that, I want to, because we're gonna go to that slide. I want for our listeners' sake, because not everybody's getting the video feed, and by the way, there is a video feed. So just to read it for our listeners, you got JD Vance here, vice president. His religious background is Roman Catholic. Correct. Public policy, world views, he's going to share, family, social conservative, and national conservative. Right

speaker-0: Mark.

speaker-1: to life. Marco Rubio, also Roman Catholic, and so he's going to share many of the same views as J.D. Vance. religious liberty, anti communism you listed. He's been very vocal about that, national security. Pete Hegstaath, we're gonna get to him in a second. So I'm gonna save him. Yep. Scott Turner, a Baptist, Christian with HUD. Yep. Jug

speaker-0: Strong Christian, probably a a a true evangelical Christian like us.

speaker-1: Sure, Doug Collins, also Bet Baptist Minister, Veterans Affairs and Veteran Services, and Sean Duffy of Transportation, a Roman Catholic as well. Right. Before we move off this slide, I wanna help our listeners understand something about praying. What are we praying for with our leaders?

speaker-0: Exactly. Yeah, we're praying that first of all they they'd be saved. Right. I mean, arguably these some of these men are not true Christians. We don't know their heart. God is their judge. We don't believe Trump evidences a lot of true Christianity. Right. Even if he claims it. We don't believe his his works back up his profession if that's the case. Clearly not, yeah. We don't we don't claim that President Trump is a born-again believer like we are. We don't know. Only God is his judge. We pray first of all that they would have genuine salvation.

speaker-1: That's the number one.

speaker-0: We we pray that for anybody that we're working with, whether it's a lawyer, whether doctor in my community, whether it's a y somebody sitting on school councils, school board, or or the governor of our state, or the president. We're praying that God would save them. And we're praying that God would give them wisdom.

speaker-1: I just want to bring that up 'cause I know where we're gonna go in the email, whether we get to the exact quote or not. just talking in terms of are we somehow elevating these political leaders to a stance that we want to emulate with our families? And the answer is no. No.

speaker-0: No. I have regularly have these conversations even with my own children as we watch the news and we hear President Trump speak or other leaders speak and and things that come out of their mouth we're like we would never say that and we w and then we try to talk through some of these issues of well, we don't approve of that, but notice the kinds of things that he is accomplishing that we do approve of. So and I think that's a balance. And that's why I'm showing this this this slide and talking about To me, one of the greatest evidences of the heart and the core of a leader is who does he place in leadership. And I think President Trump learned from his first term to do a little bit better job in his second term. Now, arguably he's he's had a few bummers, you know, in the second term too. Some of them are have already resigned and left or whatever. But some of these people we're mentioning are just top shelf conservative in their worldview. And and one

speaker-1: And recent thing just happened and that's I know you want

speaker-0: I I'm really excited about what I saw just this past weekend with Pete Hegseth. Pete Hegseth, I do believe is a genuine born again believer. I got like I say, God is his judge. But one of the things that he just implemented with President Trump's complete approval, and it's all over Facebook, it's all it's being promoted, is this the pathway to military chaplaincy, which I would submit that may not only be the pathway to chaplaincy, but Remembering that some of these guys that end up being chaplains when they retire from the military may end up even being faithful pastors.

speaker-1: Many times.

speaker-0: Now Heg Seth himself is a evangelical Christian, and of course we know the military does allow chaplains in all of the faith all the religions. Okay. But what he did is he just incorporated a a much easier pathway for for someone who is in the military for years. Who gets called of God to be a chaplain in the military, now they can stay in their uniform, their eligible active duty personnel may pursue graduate theological education while they're still in the military. Yes.

speaker-1: Four.

speaker-0: They they can retain their military pay. They can also have the military pay for their master of divinity, which is a requirement to be a chaplain. And then and then they can return to serve as a full-time. Time chaplain without ever being removed from the military. This is a new policy that promotes promotes faith in the military. And I love what Hagseth said. He said chaplains are the moral backbone of the military. Now, again, I not all of these chaplains are going to be in this exact stream of religious teaching that we're in, but I would say this: there will be many of many of them that will, that will. They'll go into the military and they're they're Congregation, if I can say it that way, their ministry will be to be shepherding our young troops in the military. And Hegseth is making faith a priority in the military. And who appointed Hegseth? Donald

speaker-1: Yeah, tough.

speaker-0: Trump. Donald Trump, who has incredibly flawed character. Okay. But this is why the core issues of like who

speaker-1: We're not even saying I don't know Pete Hegeseth. I've never met Pete Seth. All I know of him is what I see on the line. So I'm not saying I know if he's got a good character. Right. I don't know the man. We wouldn't. I'm just saying this is what I know he's done and I'm thankful for that.

speaker-0: To be fair, we're offlawed in our character in some ways. And I'm sure if people were videoing and and recording literally everything that we were saying and doing, there would be things that people would mark out in any of our lives. So same would be said, we're not gonna sit here and say that everything Pete Hagseth has done or said or or been is is perfect in his character, but what we do know is what he's saying and what he's doing.

speaker-1: And we're drawing this from that email because he begins by saying, I'm a Reaganite.

speaker-0: Yes. Great. And we would all agree that Reagan did similar things like this where he appointed people that then they appointed people and then they apol then they established laws and policies and procedures that maybe we're still we're

speaker-1: But with

speaker-0: still enjoying every day.

speaker-1: Reagan had good character across the board, I wouldn't.

speaker-0: Not not necessarily. I think w we wouldn't necessarily emulate some of the things that we even saw in Ronald Reagan. Right.

speaker-1: So there's a lot to go off. Yeah. That's off that one line. he continues. He says a a a voter's media diet will greatly impact his evaluation of Trump and other politicians associated with him. It is my belief that what was known about Trump's character in twenty twenty sixteen should have disqualified him in the eyes of Christian voters even then.

speaker-0: And and to be frank, I think it did.

speaker-1: I agree.

speaker-0: Because for me, I was not a Trump supporter. I was actually voting for in the primary. I was voting for Ted Cruz. So but that th but this is how elections work. The primaries then lead to the general. Okay, so if you don't make it through the primary, then you don't have a I mean I had an I I was either voting for Trump or Hillary, I think it was, right? Right. in the two thousand sixteen

speaker-1: Unless you voted third party. I just introduced a Denver conversation, but I think it bears relevance here. Right. What about a third party write-in?

speaker-0: Well, I I think that we have to be realistic about it. Again, I I want to say clearly, people need to vote their conscience and if they're not comfortable they need to they need to vote third party or write in somebody, then that that's up to them. That's their business and they're accountable to God for that. I think though that logically and realistically, and even historically, we have to understand that the reality is in most cases, if you write in somebody that's actually helping the party that you're not for. So That's just reality, even though you feel like you voted for I I heard somebody say recently, I wrote in Jesus. Yeah. Well, that's never Jesus is not gonna be our president. Right. Jesus is not gonna be our senator. Jesus is not gonna go to the House of Representatives. Right. I mean you can live in a la la land in a dreamland and think that the very person that you want to write in, maybe they'll write in Pastor Phelps or Pastor Herbster.

speaker-1: You make it a writing mode. Wow.

speaker-0: Somebody could do that, but we have to live in reality. And reality is our country has this two party system and it's not our job to fix that. That that could be a whole nother discussion. It is historically.

speaker-1: And it is a whole nother conversation. I wasn't just trying to poke at it because I just recognizing that that is it, we joked about the Thanksgiving debates. That's that's a that's a big one because I believe that there are good Christians who really in their conscience believe that this is the only right thing they can do. And my Bible would tell me I'm I'm not going to speak ill of that in that regard. Yes. And I actually think there might be some value to it to that at certain times. Yeah.

speaker-0: There may be in certain times.

speaker-1: It depends on the thing. And and and that if you want to get in a conversation about man, I w I wish our country wasn't a two party system. It should be more than that. It wasn't started that way. I get that. Now we're talking history, we're talking nations. I'm a pastor. I I went to seminary. I didn't go to law school, though I wanted to at one point. I really did. Yeah. I did appreciate this is John Wesley. I showed this right before we 'cause he had some good points. Now, I don't know if I agree with everything that he's saying, but I this is Way back in the day, this is seven a journal from seventeen seventy-four, and Wesley's writings and he's giving election advice. And I just want to give some election advice

speaker-0: Interfaces.

speaker-1: about it. He said, I met those of our society who had votes in the ensuing election and advised them these three things. This is John Wesley. Number one, to vote without fee or reward for the person they judged most worthy.

speaker-0: Yes. Absolutely. Th the question that I would ask to that then is how do you judge who's most worthy? That's a good question. And is it are you talking about only the people that are on the ballot? Or are you talking about anybody that happened to run in the primary or 'cause we're here in South Carolina we have this I voted for Ralph Norman. I did too. For for the primary for Senate. But so but is e is he worthy to be our senator? Absolutely. But the thing is he's not on the ballot. Right. So If I write him in and and I feel like he's most worthy, he's not really a candidate right now because he didn't win the primary. The reality is if I write in Ralph Norman, I'm actually helping Annie Andrews because I'm taking a vote away from a more conservative candidate, even though she's not the one I won.

speaker-1: Yeah and and

speaker-0: The question is how do you judge who's most worthy and is it only the people that are listed on the

speaker-1: And there's the question. And I realize there are people that are gonna disagree with that.

speaker-0: Yeah. And that's fine if somebody I I just don't see the logic in writing in somebody that you pretty much know is not gonna win.

speaker-1: And and there's where people

speaker-0: And allowing somebody who stands for abortion and transgender rights and was working in, you know, to take away was working to take away our guns and w is against religious liberty and the kind of religious liberty that we stand I mean, why would I ever wanna allow somebody like that to be my senator?

speaker-1: Annie Andrews has some w to to be kind.

speaker-0: Radical. She's radical. She by

speaker-1: Radical views.

speaker-0: far would be the most liberal person that South Carolina has ever sent to DC. Absolutely.

speaker-1: Right. And to to be fair, Darlene Graham Not conservative as we'd like and not the strongest person I'd ever consider. No. I was actually at the Newberry debate. Yeah. with Ralph Norman and and

speaker-0: She blew a few questions pretty bad.

speaker-1: and I can tell you, having been in have I was in the room. What you saw on your social media feeds in the clips did not translate the same in the room. In the room when she blew a fuse more than once, it was so gasping shock and awe moment. that you couldn't actually hear the question from the moderator that came next. Right. Now on the on the screens and in your television sets, you pr you could 'cause they're wearing a microphone. In the room it was it was it was

speaker-0: That's amazing.

speaker-1: it was amazing. And I do I I thought at that moment

speaker-0: I thought she wasn't gonna win.

speaker-1: in the room I thought it was over.

speaker-0: Yeah. But she did. Again, going back to this question then, and this is why I think we as Christians should be engaged and informed. And to our listeners' point, the way we get informed is through the media. So we have to consider who we're listening to. And course, even our listener said he was listening for many, many years to Rush Limbaugh, and that's a that's a wonderful media outlet. A lot of people, a lot of conservative in his second

speaker-1: Not exactly a good character guy either.

speaker-0: Exactly. It's not somebody who would emulate. But I think that conservative news outlets, you know, I I'm not into like all these conspiracies that there's going on and all that, but I think that we need to listen to people that hold our values right and and and trust that we gotta trust somewhere in someone to help us understand who is most worthy.

speaker-1: Well, it's interesting in this po mo more recent presidential election, we haven't even gone past one, by the way, and John Leslie. And I understand that. There's been a kind of a change in growth in listening chip listenership. Yeah. Because, you know, there was the Rush Limbaugh and then, you know, Fox had a kind of a stranglehold on the conservative voice. But now with the influx of of podcasting and other things. That is no longer the truth, no longer the case. And this most recent election, really the the the predominant conservative voices came out of the woodwork. Even in 2020, you didn't have a group like Daily Wire to the point that you have it now. And it's been interesting here we sit. Look at where Daily Wire is now compared to where they were even when Trump was elected the second time. Right. They've really kind of the wheels are falling off the wagon. So you you've got And tragically one of the louder voices for the younger crowd was Charlie Kirk, someone that you had actually met many times. So and that void has not been filled.

speaker-0: We don't want to be blind followers of we wanna have discerning minds. We wanna be shaped by the word of God primarily, but we also wanna be shaped by, the the sensibility to understand what's really happening in our culture. We don't wanna follow fads.

speaker-1: Well, we gotta be careful as Christians. Who are you listening to more? are you more versed in politics or the Bible? And I know that seems so simple, but it's not it needs to you need to be very careful. I'm not telling you not to listen

speaker-0: Agree.

speaker-1: to what's going on. You do need to be informed. I'm telling you there needs to be a balance. And if you're out of balance, especially with November third, tomorrow election season, it's easy to get out of balance. Be

speaker-0: Right.

speaker-1: careful. Yes. Be very careful that you're not so consuming political media that you're not in the word of God you're

speaker-0: Because ultimately all of this is gonna pass, it's gonna fade, it's all transient. Right. The things that are eternal are the things of the word of God. But remembering that, as we mentioned last time, the word of God mentions the government. Yeah. Romans thirteen. And of course Romans one shows us the downward spiral of a culture that is out of control and anti God and worshiping the creature and all of those things we talked about, right to life, marriage, even gender issues, all of that's found in Romans one and so y It it it's not like it's one or the other, but it's a priority level. Right. Is as you're mentioning.

speaker-1: Well, and that's where he says so so number one, to vote without free or this is again, John Wesley, fear or for the person they judge most worthy. Number two, to speak no evil of the person they voted against. Right. Now let's qualify that.

speaker-0: Yeah, I think that we can speak to the policies that that are against what we believe. Right. I have no issue speaking out against those who are killing babies. Mm-hmm. I think we should. Absolutely. I think the more the more Christians that can stand up speak out against Planned Parenthood and anybody that supports the abortion industry, which you know, most of our liberal Senators and congressmen and and really the Democrat Party is the the party of abortion. That they would say that's what a main issue did that. Well most women

speaker-1: The national DNC had

speaker-0: My right, my body.

speaker-1: well yeah and the more recent DNC had abortion clinics in front of their remember at the more recent presidential one? I that's right.

speaker-0: The and and really all the way up to birth. Right. A type abortion. Not not all of them believe that, but so I don't have any issues speaking out against the the the policy. Remember, we're policy voters, principled voters, not personality voters. And so let's just say for example you have somebody that has that has good Christian character, in other words, they don't speak vulgarly like Trump does, but they but they will vote for every abortion bill. Okay. That this is why I'm saying there are levels of things that are important. Right. Both are important, okay? I don't want vulgar language. Yeah. But what's more important, I would sa I would argue saving the babies is a lot more important than whether they use curse words from their political speeches.

speaker-1: And but he says to speak no evil, what he's saying is you're you're not castigating the need for salvation here. You or the individual soul itself. And I would say I would go a step further on Wesley and say, you know, which by the way, I'm thankful you could I'm quoting older guys 'cause these guys are gone and glory, they're not worried about these things anymore. And they're not they're not I I I trust me, John Wesley is not concerned about the election process. One day you and

speaker-0: No. Praise the Lord.

speaker-1: I won't either. I could actually vote for someone and plan to that I don't actually agree with some of the things that they're doing. Right. Like there's there's a wrestling match. Like Darlene Graham would be an example. Yes. I I was not a supporter of her in the primaries. And to be honest with you, I think she's one of the weakest Senate candidates that South Carolina's ever put forward. It disappoints me that we we are now presenting her because di there is, I believe that your argument is fair. That there is now a diff difficulty that we're facing that it could be that Annie Andrews is taking that seat. And

speaker-0: How

speaker-1: my choice is Annie Andrews and Darlene Graham, and I don't really like either one, to be really frank. Right. So that that's where we're at. And I don't like that. And so I could maybe vote for Darlene Graham and still say, your lack of a presence on the on the on the platform. Your lack of understanding of international affairs and your seeming bent to be a warmonger is is things that that bother me. I can still talk about

speaker-0: The only big silver lining that I see with her particularly is that she's a follower. yeah. And not a leader. But that's what And that's actually better than what was happening with Lindsay because here's the deal. She's already told us that she's voted 100% of the time with Mike Lee, very conservative senator. Ninety-eight percent of the time she's voted already in the few months she's been there with Ted Cruz. Yep. We all know he's a conservative. Yep. Yep. And so she's following She's following people that she knows she can rely on. And as long as we know she's following the right people, the silver lining is she's gonna vote the right policy. Now she was she was leader on the Save America Act, which was really a great law that we passed.

speaker-1: At times we can actually be thankful. I'm gonna get to number three in a second, but we can be because you had a chart on that that's like you can vote for someone and be thankful for the people that they put into judicial roles and be disappointed with

speaker-0: Yes, yes.

speaker-1: the people they put in judicial roles that you thought were going to do something. And you had a chart on that as well.

speaker-0: Because and this again goes back to the fact that a flawed candidate like Donald Trump has been a successful candidate in the sense that he not only appointed wonderful candidates for our for our cabinet positions, but he also has appointed judicial nominations that are pushing religious freedom, that are pushing for states to have tighter laws on abortion, that are pushing Pushing all of the things that we stand for in our in our Christian worldview. So the religious affiliate this is a slide that just shows the 2025 research findings about the judicial nominations of specifically Donald Trump. And it's interesting, I was doing a little bit of a study also between Reagan and Trump, and actually Trump's nominations.

speaker-1: For the juice. Yes, they have been.

speaker-0: And more conservative than even Ronald Reagan. Yeah. Which has led us then to having all across our country, 'cause this are not just Supreme Court. These are these are in the states as well, the appellate courts and all that. But the different the different religious freedoms that we that we have and the different free exercise rulings, it's one of the the the topics on here, Trump appellate judges more often favored Christian plaintiffs, but less often favored the Muslim plaintiffs in than in in the comparison judges. So he is he's putting he's putting people in w when it comes to the the the the gun rights, the NRA affiliations, or the organizational ties with the federal society and the NRA affiliations. So again, I'm what I'm showing by this is that voting for a flawed candidate that we don't support in all of his Christian values. But he stands for the deeper issues that we hold. Right. Can have results that actually that actually sh give us more religious freedom for years to come.

speaker-1: Freedom. For example for For example

speaker-0: For example, the abortion issue. Abortion. Now our listener did make a a legitimate point is that there's actually you even see here on this slide, there's in 2025 we actually have more abortions than we have than we had before Roe v. Wade was overturned. The Dobbs decision. Yep. But there's a there's a few caveats to that. And one of them is that what's happened since the Dobbs decision is the mail, the mailing the pills, the the abortion pill is being mailed. So people are are there maybe still more abortions taking place because that was, you know, now that a lot of the states have banned it, you see on the slide, 13 states since the Dobbs decision have total abortion bans. So what Trump did and what was allowed by the the Supreme Court was to pass the abortion issue back to the states, I have no doubt that if Trump could and and if he felt like it was constitutional, he could he would try to make a abortion ban national. But he made it a state issue, which you know, you could argue that one way or the other. He made it a state issue, and since then thirteen states have total abortion bans. six states Have limited the abortions to six to twelve weeks. So nineteen total states since the Dobbs decision have have either a ban or an early limit on abortion. Now, so why are we still seeing more abortions? I already mentioned one of them is the mail-in, the mail-in, mailing the abortion pill. The other one is a lot of people are leaving the ban states and they're going across state lines. And this is why one of our one of the major issues in the pro-life movement is to remove all federal funding from Planned Parenthood. Because Planned Parenthood is targeting the states that have bans. Right. And it and is telling people to travel to di to their states where the where the Planned Parented Parenthood clinics are. I was reading another statistic. There's literally hundreds of clinics that have been shut down in these states that have bans. Yeah. So No matter how you slice it, we are in a better position in the pro-life community than we were. Right. And look at the leaders that he he promoted, look at the judicial appointees, which leads us to things like Roe v. Wade and the Dobbs decision. Which then leads us to the fact that I don't know if you have that slide that shows what the pro life people are saying about John.

speaker-1: Here's some of those

speaker-0: This is Susan B. Anthony is a is a pro life Huge pro-life organization doing wonderful things. President Trump is this is what they said. President Trump is governing as the most pro-life president in history. The national right to life in 2024. He has demonstrated extraordinary leadership and delivered historic results in the pro-life. And again, flawed candidate, but this one issue, there's no really all the pro-life people are saying. He's historic. Right. Donald Trump has been historic in the pro-life. He's a v vital ally of the pro-life movement. this is the national right to life in April 2025. So again, just trying to show that that we're not giving a pass. No, we're not. But we're having to judge who who's the leader, because leaders have consequence, and they have consequence by the leaders they appoint, by the laws they promote, by the worldview they hold. Those things. are the are the main things that are then gonna play out in the policies. Remember politics is the ordering in the authority and the ordering of our cities and governments. That's what politics is. So when when we elect people that hold the traditional values that we hold, and even when they have other issues that are flawed, we see amazing results. Now remembering that the opposite is the case as well, and w we have seen that through the Obama years and through the Biden years. the the complete difference in their worldview played out in so many ways, the abortion issue, especially you know, and and really other issues as well. So I think that those are those are some really you know logical stats that we can see of the stream of having somebody that holds to the core issues, the core values of

speaker-1: Hold Right. And I we you referenced the email. We didn't directly quote it. And I want to get back to the email itself, because I just wanted to say there's a third election advice you say to take their spirits to take care that her spirits were not sharpened against those that voted on the other side. Which is very, very important. And that's a Christian ideal here. and and because we we can say someone who is carnally fleshly we were just in this in first Corinthians chapter five, actually. Paul makes it very clear. I'm not talking about the ones in the world. I'm talking about the ones that the brothers, lest you be removed from the world. So there are those that we'd say, yeah, they're wicked people. I know we've mentioned in Andy Andrews, because we're here in South Carolina. Yeah. Yeah, her I I'm it I'm sickened by her views, but that doesn't mean that I don't still pray that she'd come to Christ. Correct. Now he says in the email some of the things. He says I'd like to address the voting question from another angle. We touched all around it. and he's those like me who have voted third party or left parts of the ballot blank are some degree helping Democrats win. That's kind of what you're articulating in what he's asking about.

speaker-0: I think that that's just statistically, mathematically, and logically the reality. That is the reality. Now I'm not saying if somebody feels they cannot, absolutely cannot, I'm not gonna tell somebody to go against their values and their conscience, okay? But the reality is that's what's happening.

speaker-1: Right.

speaker-0: You know, there's many examples of that throughout political history where people were on the even people that were a third party on the ballot that everybody knew weren't they weren't gonna win, were stealing votes from the person that we really needed to be the leader.

speaker-1: Well, he says this. He says, I can easily turn that argument around. So let's let him argue against you for a moment. Those who lament the poor quality of GAP candidates in the Trump era, but still dutifully vote for them in the general election are enabling the toxic element toxic elements in the party to hold it hostage. If evangelical voters as a bloc simply withheld their votes from general election candidates who aren't worthy of them, they could turn the GOP in a positive direction very quickly. That's his argument.

speaker-0: I would say that an election like we have tomorrow is not the time or the place to try to rearrange the Republican Party.

speaker-1: But they're what

speaker-0: I would say there is a time and a place to try to help the Republican Party. And that is when the whole process plays out in the early stages when we are putting people in the primaries that we believe will help guide the Republican Party to a more more conservative platform or or more legitimate backing of our worldview or whatever whatever you want to say. Even political policies that we agree with, that's the time. There's a process that plays out. I don't think we want to play around with trying to reorganize the whole Republican Party at the moment where we're dealing with a candidate that is as liberal as Annie Andrews and a candidate that is not as conservative but way more conservative than Annie Andrews. I think that's not the moment. I think the moment there is to get the person in that's gonna stem the tide, get us to the next direction. And then and then we we do the politics like the grassroots change politics to try to get to rearrange in our county, in our state, in our country, rearrange what's happening in the Republican Party. Of course there's problems in the Republican Party. There's there's problems that need to be fixed. But I don't think this is the right way to handle it by coming to a major election that's gonna have major consequences for years to come and saying, Well, I'm not gonna enable somebody that's not, that that's a crony in the in the Republican Party. Right. I

speaker-1: I'm and

speaker-0: don't think that's the moment to do it is my point. I think we should try to do that. We should rearrange the party, but we we don't do it at the moment of the election. I think it's too late right now for us to rearrange the party in this in this midterm election. I mean we cannot afford to have these liberals in there.

speaker-1: And I appreciate you you stipulating that. this is this is what you believe to be your opinion on the matter. Right. And you're recognizing as you say that there are other believers even that disagree on that. Correct. And that doesn't mean I can't converse. Right. It doesn't mean I can't talk through this. Right. But I it does mean I you, as a believer and hopefully another believer who's talking, this is not where our priorities level. Let's let's understand something very clearly. We are Christians first.

speaker-0: Yes.

speaker-1: And and Spurgeon actually spoke to this, you know, of course not American, but Spurgeon nonetheless had political stuff in England and he wrote to live for a political party is unworthy of a man who professes to be a Christian. Right. And I agree with that.

speaker-0: Absolutely. We're living for things above. And our listener even pointed out, and and and really I feel bad that we didn't talk about it more in the last. Sure. He pointed out that we we need to talk about the glory of God. The

speaker-1: Absolutely.

speaker-0: glory of God is the reality that is the highest goal. Right. It is the reason we're here. And that is really what we're committed to. Now, I would I would submit scripturally that anytime we are growing in our wisdom, discernment, Decision making, sanctification, whatever you want to call it. The any time we're growing in that, we are bringing glory to the Lord. And of course, our elections are a time of Christian discernment. So So you're growing this is the challenge that we have. Yes.

speaker-1: Is an is a representation of the glory of God. He did say that 'cause he he said, I I I hear the counter argument. We can't let Democrats win. I'll admit there isn't much about the democratic agenda besides holding d Trump accountable. Of course they would do that about any president just by the way. Right. Anyway, exactly. that I always find it funny. The state of the union or state of the state, state of the unions when the two different parties s stand, you know, it's all that. It's always been that way. But the idea that the country will be done for if the other side takes control is a scare tactic, not an honest assessment. He continues and says, it may be may well be one of the most poisonous lies deployed by both parties. We have survived democratic control under Clinton, Obama, and Biden before and we can survive it again. And as much as we all don't want to see the more extreme elements of the left implement their agenda, I don't think that the Lord is necessarily as concerned about things like about that as we are.

speaker-0: So his last statement is is most definitely true. Right. God is the God of all history, all empires, all nations throughout all time. So America is not like the first thing he God's thinking about. But is God thinking about America? Is is God wanting to use our country? Is God wanting us to just lay our hands down and step back and go, Whatever happens, happens. I don't think that that's appropriate either. So I do agree with him that it's not necessarily what God is most concerned about. But this whole idea of incremental down incremental approach to politics, I think, is a dangerous thing to decry because the the bottom line is everybody on the left realizes it takes time to turn the ship of the United States of America. And what is happening i over time is progressively we are allowing more and more Liberal policies that are against our Constitution that are destroying the freedoms that we that we enjoy. So I I would say that yes, ultimately God is my king and and I'm living for things above and I'm living for his glory. But while I'm in this country, I want a country that is living out the intentions of the founding fathers and the constitution. And I don't want to see this incremental growth towards socialism. Which is exactly what's been happening. Now we have the entire Democratic Party that is almost embracing this socialist agenda that is anti-America. Right. When you have candidates running for Senate who are saying that America might be more dangerous than Iran. Right. these are people that are running for our Senate. Right. They may be in the Senate. that we're we're talking about an incremental historic. downgrade that we want to stop.

speaker-1: Let me stop pause for a second and reframe it, 'cause I I I I I want our listeners to understand I'm not a I'm not a politician. Right. Me not. I didn't I didn't go to law school. I went to seminary, right? And and there are elements, however, in this conversation when what what you were just going to that I think do matter to this conversation, theologically.

speaker-0: Yeah, for sure.

speaker-1: Let me help our listeners that are particularly unique to faith in Taylor's. So in October, that was our missions month or September, excuse me, was our missions month. And one of the things we sought to do was reframe a missions conversation because I've I believe a lot of our missions conversation has defined missions America first and then anything that leaves our national borders is missions. And I say, no, no, no, that's not missions. Right? Right. And and when it comes to these kind of conversations, it's easy for people listening to go, well you're Framing everything as if America is the, we gotta save America. Right. And we're saying, no, we're not trying to save America. We're trying to save we're once he sees souls saved. Right. It it's the same, maybe different, but same conversation. And there are different for years been different competing views on this. Yeah. This is there are two different sides. This is Charles Finney on one side, and I want to read D. Al Moody. And they they crossed in timeline a little bit. Finney is saying politics, this is his side, are part of religion in such a country. By the way, I don't like that it gave us red and blue. We're not trying to describe it that way, but but politics are part of religion in such a country as this, and Christians must do their duty to the country as part of their duty to God. It seems sometimes as if the foundation of the nation are becoming rotten and Christians seems to act as if they think God does not see what they do in politics. But I tell you he does see it and he and he will bless or curse this nation according to the course that they take. Right. That's a lot. There's some things I

speaker-0: There's some truth in that and there's some false false things in that. And I think that kinda plays to Finney's whole view is that God re reacts and God responds to the choices that we make. Right. And yet here's the thing, we know that God already has a sovereign will and plan for every election that happens in the United States. Right. Now, again, not shirking our I do agree with him, it is our responsibility to vote. But I d I I I would just say that God is not bound by the choices we make at all. Right. God will do as he will in heaven and in earth. Heaven is his throne, the earth is his footstool. Right. So he's on to some truth because we do need to take responsibility for the choices we make, but then trusting God that he's gonna set up the king, the kings and leaders, the king's heart is in the hand of the Lord. He turns it whithersoever he willeth. So that's what the scripture says. Yes, yes, absolutely. For sure. And I and I would say that, D. L. Moody's statement here is probably more scriptural, more biblical in really what our main focus should be is believers.

speaker-1: He says I f I f Moody says I have felt like working three times as hard ever since I came to understand that my Lord was coming back again. I look on this world as a wrecked vessel. God has given me a lifeboat and said to me, Moody, save all you can.

speaker-0: That's a wonderful statement. And when I read that, thinking about our conversation today, my question is, does that include my representatives and senators? It sure does. Which is why I want to engage with them, why I want to have rep a r a relationship with them, whether they're Democrat or Republican, I try to meet them all because I want them to know the Lord. I want them to know Jesus Christ. And as a pastor, they're part of the people I want to reach. They're they're ones that I want in the lifeboat with me. So I want to pray with them and support them and help them and lead them. And if that means then it it provides a country that is more reasonable to my Christian faith, then that's a benefit of having the right leaders in there as well.

speaker-1: So again, getting back to our primary question, which is an accusation, why do Christians give politicians a pass? Are

speaker-0: Right. And

speaker-1: we?

speaker-0: no, not really at all. Not any more than I would give my lawyer a pass or my doctor a pass. I'm not looking for a lawyer or a doctor that has perfect character. I'm looking for one that does the main things really, really well. Right. Now ideally if I could find a perfect lawyer and a perfect doctor that had all their morals. We're not giving the p the politicians any more of a pass than any other area of life where we're not looking we're not hiring our pastor or a deacon. Right. And their qualification for those. But I understand the question and this is the tension we face in And especially the political world for sure. The tension is how do we, and we talked about that last time, how do we hold biblical truth without compromise? Is there a difference between b biblical compromise and political compromise? And the reality is we stand with God on every issue. We are on God's side. We're not on a Republican side or Democrat side. We're on God's side. We want to stand with God on every issue. And the issues that really are very important are issues of life. Issues of gender, marriage, religious liberty, freedom of choice, parental rights, or the not choice not with life, but freedom of choice with education and educational rights. All of these things are core issues of freedoms, which by the way the founders put into the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence. And I I appreciate the fact that we're in a country that was built upon those core values.

speaker-1: And I want to tell you, I know we're coming to an end here. We went long again. This is a big conversation. And I want to say again, I'm very, very, very thankful for the individual who sent this email. We did not get through everything. And I don't imagine that we and he agree on everything. So but that's okay. And I'm I'm I want our listeners to understand we need to be willing to have these conversations, think through them biblically. Come back to him again and and be willing to change if corrected. Yes. And and they're there that is part of Christian growth. That's part of edifying. That's part of iron sharpening iron. And politics has a tendency, unfortunately, to become very vitriolic and angry and less than edifying. Right. And that is, let's just call that what it is. That that is sin, and that should that is no place in and amongst God's children. That's not appropriate. And the devil has honestly used politics to create all kinds of tensions and all kinds of problems in and around the church. Yes. And that is not godly. We can just call that what it is.

speaker-0: I totally agree. And I think that again that brings us back to the reality that we follow God first. Sure. We don't follow America or our president or any political party. Right. But we want to stand for the things that that matter to God.

speaker-1: And I think sometimes in churches that's why pastors and congregants have basically y I'm gonna give you one last chart that 'cause I wanna get to you 'cause you gave me some good slides here. Wh when biblical truth and politics have consequences, you know

speaker-0: Yeah, and this was from a family research council, one of my friends, Tony Perkins, which he's a he's a great guy who who really who is speaking out even in this o election. He would he would agree with our assessment of of how we should vote. And and and he says our calling is neither to become the mouthpiece of a party nor to retreat into silence. Notice that balance. Sure. And that that's really important. Sixty six percent of Americans say houses of worship should stay out of political matters. Yeah.

speaker-1: Sixty six percent. Yeah.

speaker-0: But the question is, are political matters biblical issues? If they're biblical issues, and he shows this biblical precedent, if they're biblical issues, then then we should be speaking into those leaders and into those issues. Moses confronted Pharaoh, Esther approached the king, Daniel spoke to rulers, John the Baptist confronted Herod Herod. So pastors and and Christians should be involved by speaking out the truth in these in these these places. Scripture provides a critical distinction. Scripture provides moral truths, not a party platform or an answer to every legislative detail. And this is again the difference between partisanship and voting policy. And I wholeheartedly agree with Family Research Council. Tony Perkins is doing a wonderful job, wonderful work. And by the way, Ken Hamm, I I expressed a video. You can look up his video on voting. Yeah. And our listeners can do that, and it's wonderful. He's saying the same thing. He's basically saying Elections have consequences and what we choose to do now plays out in so many areas that we've even touched on today.

speaker-1: Well again, thank you, our listener that sent this email.

speaker-0: Thanks for listening.

speaker-1: Thanks for listening this long podcast, right? And others, please. and and and you may send an email that may not be at all related to what we're talking about today. It may be something that's been on your heart you wish we would have talked about. And we'd love to we'd love to hear from you and appreciate you taking the time. And behind the camera, I wanna say thank you to Craig Stouffer giving up the time to help us get these podcasts out. We we have honestly had quite a lot of listenership over the several past several podcasts and We know in conversation it's been a help to our people. So we we want to continue to be a help and if we can be any further of a help, please let us know

speaker-0: And make sure you get out and vote. Yeah. I if you listen to this and you don't vote, I'm I I feel like

speaker-1: Sorry for Yeah, there's something off. But again, thank you very much for taking the time to be with us.

speaker-0: Thank you for joining us today. For more information about Faith Baptist Church, visit us at www.fbcttailors.org.