speaker-1: Faith Baptist Church in Taylors presents This Week in the Word.

speaker-0: Well, welcome back to this week in the word at FBC Taylors. And once again we're so thankful that you can join us. Again, you can find us anywhere you get your podcasts. We're also available on YouTube and Facebook. And this morning I'm joined by Pastor Mark Herbster again.

speaker-1: It's always a privilege, Pastor thankful to have these conversations. And we we talk about these things all the time. It's just good to get a little bit on the podcast.

speaker-0: In a sense, what we're doing is we're letting people into the room with us. These are normal conversations that we have amongst ⁓ our pastoral team in the office on a regular basis.

speaker-1: One of the greatest joys of working here at Faith Baptist is the team we have and the the conversations we have and the c the camaraderie, friendship that that we have.

speaker-0: The majority of the topics we've covered in this podcast have come or spun out of some office conversation. Office conversation. Yeah. And ⁓ so we're thankful for and that that is no less true for this mornings. So this morning I wanna talk with you about pastoring in the Bible Belt. You and I are both new to the Bible Belt, though we were schooled in the Bible Belt. Right. Schooled literally. Schooled in a new sense.

speaker-1: So

speaker-0: And there's there are so many churches in the Bible Belt. But before I talk about the numbers, maybe we could define what we'd mean for those listeners to what is the Bible Belt. Right. Well the term Bible Belt was popularized apparently by journalist H. L. Menchkin, and until I googled that I didn't know who that was. But he was the one who you first used the expression Bible Belt in nineteen twenties, and he did so in describing the religious character that he was seeing in the South. And so what is the Bible Belt? Well, it's the broad region of the American South, where evangelical and Protestant Christianity has historically exerted a particularly strong influence on the region's religious life, culture, institutions, and communities.

speaker-1: And really that we should be thankful that we're a part of what some are calling the Bible Belt because that means this historically this area of our country and this area of the South has been greatly influenced by Bible preaching and teaching. That's that's a positive

speaker-0: We positive thing. Revivalists of the past. ⁓

speaker-1: ⁓ of course. Well, one of my of course my personal heroes, George Whitfield, and he spent a lot of time ministering in South Carolina, Georgia, places like that during the during the early colonies. Right. ⁓ time period. Yeah.

speaker-0: And because of that, there are tons of churches in the South. But let me start with some of these statistics. I'm gonna go Southern Baptist, we'll go a little bit bro broader, but just just so you can understand what we're talking about. When we say there's a lot of churches, here's according to 2025 data from the Southern Southern Baptist Church. We're not Southern Baptists, but it gets you an understanding of what we're talking about.

speaker-1: Yes. Right.

speaker-0: They say four thousand two hundred ninety-five churches in North Carolina, three thousand two hundred and fifty-two in Georgia, three thousand plus in Alabama. And you can see all these numbers in the and there's that region of the country that's in red there, which is the Bible Belt.

speaker-1: And remembering that the convention itself is labeled Southern. Because of the Bible Belt. Yeah. Because of what we're talking about.

speaker-0: Yeah. Yes. So well no surprise. It says collectively just in nine states, those nine states I just had on the slide represent fifty two point four percent, or the majority of the Southern Baptist Convention.

speaker-1: Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah, and and really now they're worldwide, but you you still have more churches here in this area than than any and that's just Southern Baptists. I think if we went to the independent Baptist world we would we would see the same thing.

speaker-0: Anywhere. It's all over the place. Yeah, I'm using I'm using SBC a little easier to get the stats than the independent group, as you can only imagine.

speaker-1: Yeah, because we're they're they're a denomination and we're independent. Right. So we don't like to give our staff.

speaker-0: Yeah, that's right. Don't let don't ask me about numbers. So in that that's why don't anybody think we're SBC, but it makes sense to use them. You can find that very easily. Now we're not in Georgia, Alabama, or Tennessee or these other places. We are in South Carolina and of the you meant the mention earlier where the buckle of the Bible belt. Yeah. And that seems to be true. If we're gonna narrow that scope a little bit further, South Carolina ranks among the nation's most religious states With only about sixteen percent, only sixteen percent religiously unaffiliated, which is far below many northern and western states.

speaker-1: Yeah, that's a amazing percentage, sixteen, only sixteen percent in this area. I we I used to joke that you knock on somebody's door here in South Carolina and everybody's a Christian. Everybody. But they don't know where they go to church and they don't know their pastor's name. Sometimes they don't even go to church. But if you ask them, Are you a Christian? ⁓ of course I'm a Christian. Right. Well, what do you believe? Well, I believe whatever my pastor believes. Well, who's your pastor? They don't even know who their pastor is.

speaker-0: But they're religiously affiliated. Yeah. So we're Christian. We're just taking the circle and we're we're we're we're getting it smaller. And now to Greenville County. That's where we are. And I I would say if South Carolina is the buckle of the Bible belt, arguably Greenville County is the center of that center. It is right there. And the numbers alone back that up. Here's Greenville County.

speaker-1: Yeah, right.

speaker-0: Greenville County has 600 congregations serving roughly five hundred and forty people. Five hundred and forty thousand people. That works out to be one church for every nine hundred people. Whoa.

speaker-1: Five hundred and forty thousand. That is amazing. I know. And again, it's there's some positives to that because of the nature of like the influence in this area. And for for those of us that were affiliated with BJU, we went to Bob Jones University, of course Bob Jones University has had a major influence in this area. They they're celebrating their hundredth year.

speaker-0: Go back a generation beyond that, you got Furman that was a Baptist at one point.

speaker-1: Furman was Southern Baptist North Greenville University, which is an evangelical school. I'm not sure their affiliation exactly, but lots of Christian universities and colleges. But I think in our world of conservative Christianity, of course, BJU has has ⁓ had an influence in this area. And even if we're to take churches similar to to our church, sure we'd be talking about probably easily over a hundred and hundred and fifty maybe that's just in this upstate area.

speaker-0: We're just going through history. So we're surrounded by churches. I I drove past several to get here. Do we have revival?

speaker-1: Yes. That's and that's what we want to talk about. That is the and the answer to that is a little bit complicated because of the nature of revival and the definition of revival.

speaker-0: I mean, that's literally what we're gonna call the podcast today. Yeah. Surrounded by churches starved for revival, the Bible Belt Problem. Yeah, we're at.

speaker-1: And I think that when we when we have this conversation, for me as an evangelist for all these years and really even my dissertation project was a around this subject of evangelism and revival and the nature of revival and what do evangelists do. And so I've done a lot of thought and a lot of research about this area of revival. And I think in order to really answer the question, are we seeing revival? Are is the Bible Belt seeing revival? Right. We need to understand like the nature of and the definition is of revival. So I want to Yeah, and so one of the first things I want to say to that is re ⁓ revival, Jonathan Edwards said this about revival. He said revival comes first when you have a fearful and awful awareness of the power and the presence of God. And we all know that as preachers and really church historians, that this subject of revival has been talked about and written about across church history. And even here in our country.

speaker-0: Define revival.

speaker-1: We've experienced what many have called spiritual awakenings, revivals of the church. The first Great Awakening, of course, with people like Edwards that I just quoted, George Whitfield and others. And the second Great Awakening, starting more along the on the lines of ⁓ evangelist Charles Finney, moving all the way through really some of the revivals that even we've experienced in modern era. A lot of a lot of people use the term revival. I like to use the term awakening because I think that gives the right focus. Because a revival is really all about God. It's all about our seeking of God, all about our following of God. Right. Now, in my particular understanding of revival, there's two primary differences of definition. Okay. The first one I want to talk about is what's called the promise response view of revival.

speaker-0: And we got a little definition of that.

speaker-1: That could be I'm I'm sorry to be too simplistic here, but just to summarize, that is is this idea that God has promised certain spiritual blessings in response to certain conditions. When God's people meet those conditions, they may expect God to respond according to his promises. And ⁓ this is this is the view that Charles Finney took, and I want to show you what he said about revival.

speaker-0: Okay. Yeah.

speaker-1: Because Charles Finney took this position of revival that was almost almost ⁓ purposefully built upon the conditions that are created by a minister or by a church. And he said this. He said revival is not a miracle, nor is it dependent on a miracle in any sense. He said it is purely philosophical, a philosophical result of the right use of constituted means. This is where you see the the ⁓ response to certain conditions. He's he goes on to say a revival is as natural, as naturally a result of the use of appropriate means as a crop is of the use of appropriate means. See that metaphor there is whatever the farmer does will produce the fruit. He says, mistaken notions concerning the sovereignty of God have greatly hindered revivals. Right. And you see that, you know, what Finney is saying here is is meted out in his philosophy of revival, which was he had all these new measures. If the church or the pastor or the evangelist will do these particular conditions, will set up the conditions for revival, you will experience revival.

speaker-0: Almost sounds to me as you're describing it as like a health, wealth and prosperity form. Almost. I don't want to accuse him of that, but well gets close to that.

speaker-1: Well, I think you could make an argument that some of the marketing philosophies and even the like you mentioned the ⁓ the theology that you just talked about, like the Joel Osteen type, you know, health, wealth and prosperity. You do this and God will do this. Right. You can make an argument that that is kind of built on this historic philosophy that Finney that Finney brought out. Right. And I am a particularly a little bit hard on Finney because I've read a lot of his works. Yeah. in his autobiography, and I don't believe this is this is a proper definition of revival. Okay. So the second option, okay, which would be what I call the sovereign act, what actually others have called too, I I write about this in my dissertation project as well, but the sovereign act view, and maybe this will resonate more with you and our listeners too. And that is that Christians should repent, pray, seek God, and preach faithfully. Those are like disciplines that all of us should be regularly doing. Right. But revival in the extra extraordinary historical sense is a special sovereign visitation of God that He is not obligated to give simply because Christians have fulfilled certain conditions. And what what this is teaching is that revival is revival is something supernatural, spiritual, and miraculous that God

speaker-0: Finney was saying it isn't

speaker-1: Okay. It's the opposite of what Finney was saying. Finney was saying it's not a miracle. Right. I believe that true revival is a miracle of God. That if we're talking about the historic idea of revival where an unusual spiritual blessing comes upon a body of p people or a country or or ⁓ ethnic people or whatever. And so ⁓ and somebody that I quote on on this is Martin Lloyd Jones. Okay. Because Martin Lloyd Jones is is really kind of Representing this view. There's others that have represented this view. And he said this, and these are his quotes. Revival is a miracle. Notice the direct opposite. It's almost like he's writing against Phineas. And he might have been. Right. Revival is a miracle. It is the hand of the Lord. It is mighty. It is not the church deciding to do something and then doing it. It is something that is done to the church. By God is his point. Something that happens to the church in a sovereign act. He says a revival by definition is the mighty act of God, and it is a sovereign act of God.

speaker-0: When we're talking through this, I'm thinking within culturally our circles. Yeah. You have an evangelist in for a week of meetings, and what do you call Yeah. Yes. Yes. And it's like, well Yeah. Accor according to this quote, you'd say, No, that's not wouldn't that wouldn't be a proper well, it wouldn't be proper to call it that. You can pray that as a result of this meeting, yes, a revival would come, but you wouldn't schedule it.

speaker-1: Right, you call it revival or revival meeting.

speaker-0: Right. I'm gonna put on a church coun calendar. We have now scheduled for a revival. But really it

speaker-1: To be to be very frank, that methodology particularly probably is an outgrowth of Finney's philosophy in the second great awakening. And I think you can go to seed and say th get rid of the methodology because that methodology isn't appropriate.

speaker-0: Take for example invitations.

speaker-1: Correct. Some would say that that that kind of thing when you said and really Finney started with what was called the mourner's bench. I mean that was one of his new measures. One of his new conditions for revival is to put extraordinary pressure on people to come to the altar. And that experience was also a part of his definition of revival. And so what we can do is throw the baby out with a bathwater and say, well, that methodology has to be removed in order for us to get a proper

speaker-0: We're not gonna do invitations anymore because we disagree with Finney.

speaker-1: That's why I always like to say there's a there is kind of a medium position. And actually that's what interesting. That's what Edward's position. I think I have a slide on this minute. Is Edward's position really is kind of a medium position. I would say he primarily leans, if you read his works, there's no doubt he leans toward a sovereign act position and definition of revival. But he does not discount the fact that Christians must be seeking the Lord in this way. He said this.

speaker-0: Okay, no you're

speaker-1: He said revival is an extraordinary work of God's Spirit. I think this is actually not a direct quote, but more of my summary of his quotes. Revival is an extraordinary work of God's Spirit, which believers should earnestly seek through God's appointed means, but cannot manufacture. And I think that is a proper view, a proper definition of what we're calling revival. Notice the emphasis on seeking God. Notice the emphasis on the Spirit of God doing the extraordinary work. And even Edwards himself called it a surprising work. Right. So clearly taking the miracle position, not the anti-miracle position of Finney. Right. And so I think for us to talk about are we having revival in the Bible belt, we need to ask ourselves, are we in our churches in the Bible belt? Are we experiencing this extraordinary work of God's spirit where believers are earnestly seeking God? Right. So that then when God in his sovereign divine will chooses to do something historic, something miraculous amongst a group of people, that we are ready for that. I don't think we manufacture it, but I think we need to be in the mindset and in the condition where God can bless in his miraculous sovereign act. That's why I think this is this is kind of a balance between Finney and the extreme, maybe sovereign act view, which makes us passive. We're not passive.

speaker-0: So it there's a there's a pendulum between we're going to to use the ⁓ ex example of even having an altar call, we're gonna twist someone's arm down the aisle and get them on their knees and that's when they're gonna respond. And the other extreme going, I don't like that, so we're not gonna do an altar call at all. Because it's God working. Only God working, and then a recognition that no, no, I can still give a chance for someone to respond even in an altar call invitation. And yet recognize it's not my job to twist their arm down the aisle. Exactly. There's a there's a middle ground.

speaker-1: Yes, exactly. And actually Jonathan Edwards wrote about this extensively in what was called the distinguishing marks of a work of God. ⁓ And

speaker-0: Love this one because I've I've gone through this before, even when we were ⁓ going through some of the books of Timothy and Titus with our church family on Wednesday.

speaker-1: Because was concerned during the the first Great Awakening that people were getting a false view of revival, which I think a lot of people have a false view today. I mean, we could we could reference even what was recently called the Asbury revival. Right. So there's a false view of revival. He said that re revival is when is truly happening when it raises people's esteem for b for the biblical Jesus. Yep. Number two, when it works against Satan's kingdom. Number three, when it produces a greater regard for the scripture. Number four, when it ⁓ when it operates as the spirit of truth, not one of error. And number five, it pro produces genuine love for God and his people. So we could say this is Christ being exalted? Is sin being opposed? Is scripture honored? Is truth embraced? Is Christian love increased?

speaker-0: And that would be the answers then.

speaker-1: And if the answer to all of those is yes, we could say we are having revival in the Bible belt.

speaker-0: Yes. I mean look at this. I I this chart that we've had on a screens, I I love the use of red here. It almost looks like a weather chart, you know. Here's where it should be hottest. Is that happening? And I would say it doesn't appear to be. Is that not on a on a scale where across the board we're seeing this now on an individual level we rejoice as individuals respond? Yes. And personal revival. Personal revival, but on a on a more broad scale, I'm not even trying to refer to national scale. I'm just trying to refer to a Bible belt scale. Is that happening? And if not, why not?

speaker-1: Yeah, and that my the first answer is is that happening? Mm-hmm. I would say there's probably pockets in the Bible Belt where you can truly see a church that is growing in all those five distinguishing characteristics that we just talked about. But in a general sense, across what we're looking at here as the Bible Belt, I think there there is not much of this spiritual awakening taking place. And and I do think there are some factors as to why that might be happening. And one of the first things I think is in the Bible Belt especially, people have become very comfortable.

speaker-0: Interesting. Here actually speaking of the comfortability, here's Andrew Murray. Andrew Murray from his book The True Vine, the secret spirit of Laodicea, we are rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing, may prevail where it is not suspected.

speaker-1: Right. Yeah. And it shouldn't be suspected in the place where the Bible is preached the most. Right. It shouldn't be expected in the place where hundreds of churches have been planted and and seem to be thriving, is that we would have this spirit that we're we're okay, we're rich and increased with goods. It leads me to the idea of complacency too, and that the just the fact that we are we're really kind of too comfortable to be Seeking God fully in a desperate need. We're very comfortable, so we're not desperate. And and we are actually very complacent. In other words, we're not only ⁓ satisfied or comfortable, but we're we're satisfied with our present spiritual condition. In other words, we think we already have arrived. I I love what Paul says in Philippians chapter three, I count not myself to have apprehended. So I think one of the One of the reasons we don't see revival personally or corporately is because we actually think we're we've got the answers already. We think we've arrived spiritually and we we need to admit that we need to grow and change and and be different. So we're we're complacent and you know, we're we're satisfied with our our present condition. I think th that definitely describes the Bible belt, comfortable and complacent.

speaker-0: Which produces a critical spirit.

speaker-1: And that's interesting because we didn't even talk about all of the things I had just written down about some of these reasons, but that that that is my third Is it is criticism.

speaker-0: I mean, that's a that would make sense. If you're comfortable and you're complacent, you become critical.

speaker-1: Become critical. And this idea is is really damaging to the the heart of revival because we see everyone else's problems, but we don't even see our own. ⁓ And I think there's danger for all of us to humbly admit that that is something we're tempted to think. We have arrived, which means everybody else needs to come to our level. And yet we all know with revival history. One of the virtues and values that absolutely is foundational is humility. God resists the proud. Who does he give grace to? The heart of

speaker-0: But who's doing? Humility has to include a willingness to talk with brothers and sisters in Christ. I I don't know how you can say, Well, I'm humble and yet at the same time unwilling to talk with my brothers and sisters in Christ.

speaker-1: Humility, humility is what produces good relationships. It's it's what it's what's at the core of how we say, you know what, I want to listen to where I'm wrong. I need to give you the ability to tell me. I want to have a teachable spirit, not a defensive spirit. And and again, these these are virtues that every Christian should have. But I think there's something in the Bible Bell area where that we've had so much theology, so much church work, so many opportunities of ministry. That somehow we do get comfortable and complacent, which leads us to criticizing everybody instead of actually talking to people about our

speaker-0: And then because we're not willing to talk to people about our issues, what we end up doing is we just go somewhere else where we get to start over. Or we think we can start over. And statistics bear that out. I I do believe that's part of the reason. We talked about all these churches just within Greenville County. Is it possible, if not probable, that there are so many churches within Greenville County, many of whom are pretty close to the same. Not all, but we do, even within our small conservative circles, there are churches very similar to us and We we welcome members in, hopefully not here at Faith Baptist, though that I can see as being a temptation, where they go, Well, we came from such and such church, but we never caught pick up the phone, we never called that pastor, and members indicate that's happened. Yeah. Here's Lifeway research. ⁓ Lifeway research state states that fifty fifty-three percent of regular evangelical church goers have attended more than one church as an adult. Now that is nationwide. Right. I kind of suspect that's even more so in the Bible Belt.

speaker-1: ⁓ absolutely for a fact. Right. I mean, it is shocking to me, ⁓ having moved here now about a year and a half or so ago, shocking to me how quickly people leave and they don't even have a conversation with the leadership at all. And and then they go to another church and and sadly sometimes they stay there for a short period and they do the same thing again. And and of course here in the upstate of Green in Greenville, South Carolina area, you could there's many churches that are that are not that much different than us. Right. And so they can find a church that's similar. Where whereas if they were doing that in the Midwest or out in the West, they would struggle to find any church that was even close to what they just left.

speaker-0: Yeah, Lifeway did a study further, you know, just indicating in that same poll of fifty three percent regular evangelical churches going have attended to more than one church as an adult. They indicated forty percent so more greater than forty percent switched because they moved.

speaker-1: Yeah, that's understandable.

speaker-0: Forty percent switch rather than moving. He why would that be? Well, here's the breakdown. Twenty nine percent dissatisfaction with changes, twenty-nine percent unmet needs, twenty-seven percent discouragement with the pastor, twenty-six percent disenchantment with the church, twenty-two percent disagreement with teaching. And what's ch what's really sobering is that the twenty-two percent number is the smallest.

speaker-1: Just the smallest when really the doctrine of the church is the core. But I mean that should be the number one if if I'm going to leave a church, it should be over something that is significant.

speaker-0: I don't believe that someone can be right with their Lord and really have a a heart for revival and walk away from their church family without a conversation. I don't know how that's possible. I just don't see that in the New Testament.

speaker-1: Very significant. I definitely don't think it's right. No, for sure. I don't think that's appropriate. I think brothers and sisters in Christ should be able to converse about things that they disagree about and do so in a loving manner and even part ways with a love and a compassion in their heart for each other. Right. And that should be done it every time somebody is leaving, they should be having that conversation with their pastoral.

speaker-0: Goes to your three have we come so complacent complacent in the Bible belt that transfer growth equals spiritual growth. And that can't be tr that just if we get to that point. After all, this is Pew Research Center now. Forty nine percent of Americans have looked for a new congregation at some point within the last twenty four months. Whoa. And this is evangelical. This is not just like Catholics going to church. We're talking evangelical Americans. That's Pew Research Center. Yeah. Forty nine almost half.

speaker-1: Right. And it would be interesting to know if if they can do that survey with just what we're calling the Bible belt. I bet you I can almost guarantee you it is it's less than twenty four months. It might be more like a year that they're you know, people stay at a church and it within the year they're already debating on whether they should go somewhere else. And you know, there's a lot of reasons for that and I know that there's a lot of skewed churches. There's a lot of compromising churches. Right. But I think when you find a church that is lifting up some of these realities of revival, things like Jonathan Edwards was talking about. Right. I mean, love for Jesus, greater esteem for Jesus, love for the scriptures, love for others, a c a commitment to the truth, then you there is no perfect church. Right. So you wanna you wanna find a church that is is doing those things and that the leadership is committed to those things and you wanna commit yourself. Right. Because part of revival is is is that is some sort of a commitment to God through your local church.

speaker-0: Gotta be honest, when you even said leadership of the church, this is something that's rather sobering for us as pastors to think about. We need to be willing to have these conversations. Absolutely pastors don't leadership does not get to stay neutral. So we have to be having these conversations as pastors with potential people that would join our church before they join. We should be asking, and I and we need to be accountable to this. Did you, if you're leaving your church, did you leave right? Did you did you talk to your former pastor? If you didn't, please don't come join us. Make sure that you leave right. Make sure that you talk to your former pastor. That's part of fellowship in the body. And if you have done those things and it's a Paul and Barnabas type of split, we understand that that can happen. We're not, we're not trying to deny that. For sure. But we also want revival. And revival happens when we face the realities of our own sinful heart and have humility to say, I don't want to be complacent about this, I don't want to coast, and I certainly don't want to be have a critical spirit.

speaker-1: Well, and that th for for me the progression goes from that comfortability to complacency to being hypercritical. Right, which leads to contention. ⁓ wow. Then sadly, often the next step is is full blown compromise. Right. And a lot of times I do believe this is the case. People are compromising because of some of this progression. They're compromising because there's resentment in their heart towards something that's happened. in a religious gathering, a religious situation or a church or a family, and they're actually compromising values they used to stand on or or virtues they used to believe and teach. And now they're compromising it. And of course we can't have revival if we're compromising scripture.

speaker-0: Well let's go through because I I wanna I wanna follow the trajection that you just gave. So it starts with comfortable. Comfortable. And then it moves to placent. And then it moves to Nickle Screw. And then it moves to tension. And then it moves to full on compromise. Now here's where maybe our intersection can be. And I didn't prep you for this intersection, 'cause I was just thinking about it when you're coming through. Here you are family pastor. Yeah.

speaker-1: Being like complacent.

speaker-0: When we're talking Bible Belt Christianity and in light of the conversations, so ⁓ again, just to remind you that the guy that came up with this idea of calling it the Bible Bell is H. L. Menchkin, nineteen twenties. He's observing lot of churches in the region that we're now pastoring in the nineteen twenties. So he calls it the Bible Bell. We're in twenty twenty six. We're not, in a sense, pastoring the first generation of Bible Belt Christians. We're pastoring second, third Fourth generation. Is it possible that the complacency, critical spirit, and then compromise was learned at the dinner table and living rooms of their parents?

speaker-1: Correct. No doubt. And I'm really glad you bring that up because I feel like true revival has to begin in our homes. And because if we're having these kinds of ⁓ works of God happening in our homes where we're raising the esteem for Jesus and the scriptures and loving each other more and we're lifting up God's truth, then when we meet together as believers at the local assembly, we don't walk in with

speaker-0: That's

speaker-1: you know, false expectations, a critical spirit. We're we're looking to be blessed. We're looking to seek the Lord with all of our heart. When we seek him, he'll be found of us. And and I think that it does start with how we impact our children. And I thi this is something I was thinking about when I was thinking about what we were talking about today. Right. I believe a lot of times in the Bible belt, what I have seen happen is a lot of children have actually impacted the change of their parents more than the change of their parents has impacted their children. Wow. And I've seen a lot of situations in the Bible Belt region, especially, this could be probably national as well, where even people in ministry have made radical changes in their own personal philosophy or virtues and values or methodologies based on the way their children have been responding to the culture or responding to the world around them. So I feel like in some sense, a lot of what's changed in the Bible Belt area, maybe leading to compromise, right, starts with the fact that maybe parents haven't discipled their children, but actually the children are moving the parents to different positions than they used to have.

speaker-0: Does that make sense? It does. And and we're chasing well all that glitters is not gold. And at times we can chase, ⁓ you know, that's a large ministry. It must be healthy. It must be growing. And then we count the role and we count the budget and we look at the fancy buildings and we say equals revival.

speaker-1: Right. Yeah. No. Right.

speaker-0: The ⁓ you quoted it Mart Lloyd Jones before. Here's Mart D. Martin Lloyd Jones not on revival particularly, but on the church. He says the great concern of the New Testament is not about the size of the church, it is about the purity of the church. Which can't happen if you just hop from one to next. Part of p being passionate about the purity of a church is staying there long enough to see its warts and be part of the solution.

speaker-1: Right. Yes, and I think there's been such an emphasis in the Bible Belt region on production, performance, programs of the church. Those things are happening and look really awesome. Mm-hmm. That wow, God's doing a work. But but remember that revival is an inward working in God's people that may not always evidence with big and bombastic results. I think that We we I think of Psalm sixty three all the time when I think of this, O God, thou art my God, early will I seek thee. We need a a church that's seeking God. We need a church that is diligently following after his ways. And and like you said, it starts in our homes, but but it's really not about the popularity or the pragmatic success that we see. It's about the deep foundations of our heart and our lives that are built upon the truths of the Word of God. And again, this is why that that those views of revival are so important because let's just be honest, Finney's view was very kind of ⁓ external focused. Right. Whereas Lloyd Jones or Edwards' view, the balanced view, I believe, is inwardly focused with the hopeful expectation that wonderful external things could happen when God wants to do it. Right. And when he does, we know it's all him. We didn't manufacture it.

speaker-0: Right. Again, you're getting back to that pendulum example, which I think is a good principle that we need to really be thinking about. I tried to draw that out in a recent Sunday morning message, ⁓ utilizing Rick Warren as one extreme that we want to avoid not becoming more like. ⁓ Rick Warren, if you don't know, was founding pastor of Saddleback Church in California. He wrote a book that became I think I see it in Google in Goodwill every time I go there. There's a copy it's there somewhere in it. ⁓

speaker-1: What do we usually purchase it?

speaker-0: Yeah, no well purchased it just so no one else has to. Right, right. But he he did the purpose driven church. Right. And he even says he starts his book out by saying, I spent twelve weeks going door to door in Saddleback Valley, asking people who didn't go to church why they didn't attend. Then I asked him if you were looking for a church, what kind of things would you look for? What advice can you give me about what you would like to see in a church? And then he crafted his church after the results of that polling, according to his own testimony. And we all look at that, I hope, and say, bad. Don't do that. You should be crafting it according to the word of God. But so we don't want to be what do potential customers want in my church. However, when we become complacent and critical, it's easy for us to begin to ask, well, what can I do that will keep the complacent, critical people Happy. And that's not different than Rick Warren.

speaker-1: No, it's not because then we are we can we are making concessions to our own doctrine and our own scriptural stand in order to keep people happy or fulfilled in the church. And if we it this is why we must have that proper view of what is a genuine work of God. A genuine work of God has to be evidenced by some of those things Edwards was talking about. if we're focused on anything else and all we're doing is creating more immature believers. We're creating even possibly f flat out carnal believers. Right. You know, if that's even possible. I know it's debated in in some of those passages. But somebody that is somebody that is living in common is regularly in their lives

speaker-0: Currently a layout type Christian.

speaker-1: Right. So and and and out of all people that should be committed to this proper view of spiritual awakening, it should be those of us in leadership and we're the ones that have to make the decisions on what we do in the in the church. What are the methodologies that lead us to these results?

speaker-0: So do you believe revival's possible in the Bible book?

speaker-1: Absolutely. Ac actually I believe this this is probably the place where it should be happening all the time. Right. Because of the the amount of churches and there are many that are accurately teaching the Bible. There's many that aren't as well. But there this should be the place where it where it is happening. But we have to admit that we're comfortable. We have to admit that we're lukewarm. We gotta admit that sometimes we're just f we're frankly carnal and worldly and compromised. Right. So we gotta get back to, you know the the right view and the right teaching, which leads us to, I would love to see another spiritual awakening. Genuine awakening.

speaker-0: Right. It it it comes down to we almost called this podcast Why Did You Choose Your Church the Bible Belt Program the problem because it that's that is what it comes down to. I realize that there are many churches that you can choose from. Yeah. But I don't care most this is mostly for our listeners here at Faith Baptist Church, but I understand there may be others that are listening. It's still a relevant question. Why are you going to church at all?

speaker-1: Well, yeah, let's just take Edward's first principle that w that we should have a greater esteem for Jesus. Well, is your church lifting up Jesus every Sunday? Yep. He he also said the greater love for the scriptures, this is a burden that I have. A lot of the Southern style churches, the preaching ministry has been turned into an exercise and entertainment.

speaker-0: If they have it anymore. ⁓

speaker-1: If they're preaching the Bible at all. And if they do, it's all about like keeping the crowd entertained. Well, where's the expositional verse by verse teaching with practical application, sending people away saying, Look how the Bible guides our life? You can't expect to have revival and love the scriptures more if you don't have preachers at your churches that are preaching the word accurately.

speaker-0: This is not the point of our podcast today, but we you and I've had this conversation many times before. ⁓ so I know where we're gonna go on the conversation if I bring it up, but like every church has a has the choice to fill a calendar, ours included. Right. What you fill it with matters. Yes. And if you fill it with activities and events that aren't word driven, then you are the reason we're not having revival. Right. Because revival is a word driven

speaker-1: Yes. ⁓

speaker-0: What how many churches could we say are doing things, lots of things? I ⁓ the audacity of and I I the the teaching is it needs to be had because you and I have had conversations with people who genuinely in the deep recesses of their heart believed that what they needed from their church was more connection with each other. Yeah. And I gotta tell you, that is not what you need.

speaker-1: Lots of things. Almost like a social club.

speaker-0: What you need is more connection with your God. Yes. True of your marriage. If you want a good relationship with your wife, grow with your relationship with God. If you want to have a good relationship with people, have a good relationship with God. Don't come and say, well, I wasn't really connected to the people in the church, so I needed to go to a different church so I could get more connected to them. That's not your heart problem. It's never been your heart problem. You need to be connected to God.

speaker-1: Right. Right.

speaker-0: And then get yourself in a place with other people who similarly are trying to be connected to God. And that should be why you're together. If that's not why you're together, then we will organize our churches according to whatever social grouping we want to invent. And most of the time that ends up being age divisions, or you have kids and I don't have kids, or my kids are in college, my kids are in high school, my kids are in whatever it may be, common interests, political interests. That is not what we see. happening in a truly revived church.

speaker-1: Yeah, and I think that what what will band the generations together, I mean, you were mentioned the different generations and stuff, like the older folks all the way down to the children, is the fact that they know their church is all about the Bible. They're all about the word. The word is presented everywhere. Every activity, everything we do is focused on drawing people to God through his his truth and his word. And we don't want to become an activity center, you know, community club. social village or social club where just everybody's just friends. But the what what bands us together and what will unite us around this idea of spiritual awakening is a greater love for the the word and a which leads us to just a desperateness that we realize we need God every day.

speaker-0: That's why Spurgeon put it this way If Christ is not all to you, he is nothing to you. He will never go into partnership as a part savior of men. If he be something, he must be everything, and if he be not everything, he is nothing.

speaker-1: Do Yeah.

speaker-0: We could do we could do well to remind ourselves anywhere you are, why don't we have revival? I think it comes down to what we love.

speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah, one of my favorite texts is Colossians three, set your affection on things above, not on things of the earth. And we are very earthly and not very heavenly. And I think that when we seek the Lord and we seek him through his word and we worship him in the way and in beauty of holiness, in those kinds of ways at a local church, together with other believers, I think God can really spark in us this reality. that the things above are the things that matter. And that's to me, that's at the very heart of what revival really is, is it's living in this earth with eyes toward heaven, living in those spiritual realities every day.

speaker-0: Guess we need to end this podcast with a song if we did. Seems like just do you really want the Bible? It's like how Yeah, definitely. I mean, it's it's a powerful thing. I I hope, if anything, that this conversation you and I are having, which we have had many times before, we just for the first time recorded it, ⁓ will be a hope and a help to people. I don't want people to walk away discouraged and say, ⁓ Bible Belt, there's no hope there. No. No, there is hope.

speaker-1: What an invitation.

speaker-0: Yeah. You know why there's hope? Because the word of God still is alive and active and powerful. And we need just need to get back to that.

speaker-1: Amen. So many places here in the Bible belt where God's word is being lifted up. Yeah. And probably revival is occurring. We just want more. We'd love to see the whole Bible Belt revive.

speaker-0: Amen. And it and and that is our prayer. Amen. And I hope that's your prayer as well as you're listening to this. And I hope that you would join us in that pursuit. Thank you again for listening to this week in the word.

speaker-1: Joining us today. For more information about Faith Baptist Church, visit us at www.fbctailors.org.