speaker-1: Faith Baptist Church in Taylors presents This Week in the Word. Well, welcome back to This Week in the Word at Faith Baptist Church and Taylors, or if you look us up, you'll look us up at This Week in the Word at FBC Taylors. You can really find us anywhere you look for your podcast. I'm glad this morning, or really we're recording this this afternoon, you might be listening to it in the evening. I'm glad to be joined by Pastor Andrew Starr today. So thanks again for joining us.

speaker-0: Yeah, I'm feeling a little uncomfortable.

speaker-1: Yeah, we did switch it up a little bit. I don't know if anybody noticed, and it has a lot to do with what we're gonna talk about today. Yeah. Right. It's actually what we're gonna talk about today are the seven most dangerous words in the church. You ready for them? Here they are. We've never done it that way before. You probably heard that. To

speaker-0: I've heard that.

speaker-1: be honest. You probably said it. You know, a ministry opportunity is presented, a new challenge emerges, a better way of accomplishing a biblical objective is proposed. And before an idea is even evaluated, before scriptures are consulted, merits are discussed, the conversation ends with this, these seven words. We've never done it that way before. Now, before we go any further, let me be very, very crystal clear with our audience. There are things that ought not to change. Can you think of any?

speaker-0: Well, doctrine will be one.

speaker-1: You can't change on your doctrine? Yeah. Actually, before we say the things that ought not change, maybe we should start with things that do not change. Right? Right. So God doesn't change, his word doesn't change. I was just in our conference we just hosted. I preached on the gospel. Right? The the gospel message doesn't change. We have an unchanging savior. Here's my the evaluation question. Can it be possible That some churches are more committed, however, to preserving what is familiar than they are preserving or pursuing what is biblical. That's the question.

speaker-0: I think so. I if you think about just change in general. We're creatures of habit. We like going to our restaurants and when we get to that restaurant, we order the same thing because we couldn't even think of ordering something else because why change it? This is what I've always gotten. Right. So we're we're kind of adverse to change to begin with. We're just creatures of habit.

speaker-1: We are averse to change. I love these. Sometimes satire and memes communicate really better. Here's a children's book that you can buy. It's called Green Eggs and Hymn, right? The Time, the Church Almost Got New Hymns, hymnals. I do not like it when it's new. I do not like it in my pew. I do not like the new hymn. I do not like it. Tim, it's him. Just a call out to Pastor Fisher there for just a second ago. Yeah, we are naturally averse to change. Yeah. There's another one, by the way. There's another children's book you can buy, entitled The Day Someone Suggested New Carpet and Other Tales of Horror. I love the picture. It looks like a Norman Warwell page

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: The Coffee. the coffee. Whatever that is, yeah. on the Bible. Which maybe is another satirical. Hey look, maybe notice anything about this Bible here? It's closed.

speaker-0: Looks untouched.

speaker-1: But we're talking about carpet. By the way, do you know that's a real that's

speaker-0: It's happened.

speaker-1: a real It's happened. It was a church out in Maine. It made it made the news. They literally split over the color of the carpet.

speaker-0: I'm sorry, but that that just goes to show you how shallow probably people are. Right. And their walk with the Lord, if that's what you divide over, mm-hmm is a color of a carpet.

speaker-1: Right. And whether or not a particular idea is good, the question should be settled by a biblical evaluation. Right? If we're t if we're fighting over colors of carpet, I mean, come on, obviously silly. But if there was ever a man who could have said at some point in his ministry, I've arrived, listen to me, I guess it would be Paul, you know? But notice Paul's attitude towards change is exactly the opposite. Here's what Paul says in Philippians 3, verse 12. Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect. But I follow after, if that I may apprehend that which also I am apprehended of Christ. Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended. This one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forth into the things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. Did you catch it? Paul was not satisfied with where he was spiritually. He was not content to coast on yesterday's accomplishments. And that's where I think a lot of times these seven words come into play. We've never done it that way before. What are we talking about?

speaker-0: Well, probably things that really don't matter. Right. and it was even Paul r that said, I am all things to all men. Mm-hmm. Don't you think there are times that Paul would have had to do something or talk about something that this is not really like his conversation? Like that's that's not really my sport, you know, but I'll sit here and I'll and I'll carry on this conversation with you. There there needs to be time we understand that the way we've always done it doesn't mean that That's Bible, right. Right.

speaker-1: we could use dress for an example. Just for example. Like, you ever been overseas? Mm-hmm. Different mission fields. I re in twenty twenty, around that time, we I went to the Philippines with a friend of mine. We're ministering. I was gonna be doing a lot of preaching and teaching. And my friend told me, Don't pack a suit and tie. When you get there, we will buy you Sunday dress in the Philippines. So my first there or first day there, we go to the Filipino store and they measure me for what's called a barong. Have you seen these? It's a Filipino dress shirt, which I can only liken to a comfortable Hawaiian shirt. And that is they bought me two because I was going to be there for a while preaching a different thing. So I had two barongs that I got to alternate and that is Sunday dress. Like that's almost like not almost. This is literally what they would get married in. Yeah. Right? A a man would wear this. This is this is High dress. Now if I wore a barong on Sunday morning here at Faith and Taylor's, it it wouldn't resonate the

speaker-0: It'd be the topic of conversation.

speaker-1: didn't tuck in your shirt.

speaker-0: Yeah. Or there's not a tile. And you don't have a sport coat with

speaker-1: Or there's not a tie on there. And you don't have a sport coat with it. Now that's a cultural It is. That's a Filipino thing. I was actually very willing to embrace that because they shared a common value on Sunday at a worship setting. They understood that we want to present the best to our Lord. We we want to do our best to the Lord. And for them the best was this barong. Okay? That was new to me. Just wanna let you know, yeah. I've only worn one in the Philippines. Did you

speaker-0: And say, but I've never I've never worn that before. I've never done that before.

speaker-1: Part of me wanted to, especially when it had like the lacy Right you know, like and like a fan a couple of the options were, you know, like gold fancy buttons and shells and I'm like, I don't know. And they're like, No, it's manly. Like, well

speaker-0: If you say so.

speaker-1: I will tell you I only wore it in the Philippines. I've never worn it stateside. Yeah. I think I still have it in my closet. I'm I'm I'd have to double check. I should wear it one Sunday and I get a few looks, I bet. Right. But there's a there's a there's a recognition. You know, again, Paul, let's come back to Philippians three. He wasn't resting on what God had done through him in the past, which I believe is where much of those who are kind of stuck. They're resting on what God had done in the past rather than attaining. And Paul is not saying forgetting those things which are behind, meaning my past failures. Just understanding context. He's talking about forgetting those things that were successful that I'd seen God work in my life through. I'm reaching forward. And I think a lot of times in churches where these seven words are being discussed, we've never done it that way before, they might even look at it say, Well, God blessed in that way. I guess we always have to do it that way.

speaker-0: Yeah, there's a reason that even in your car, your rear view mirror is smaller than your windshield. Because you spend more time looking forward than you do glancing in the rear view. And that's that's really what Paul is saying is there there have been some successful things that have happened in my ministry, but I I can't sit here and dwell on them and feel like I've I've arrived, like I've finished. I'm still here on this earth, which means there's still future, which means I need to I need to be pressing forward.

speaker-1: need to be willing to, in a word,

speaker-0: Change.

speaker-1: change. Here's DL Moody. I think the great trouble with churches is that we are too well satisfied. I think that puts a nail on a head right there. Yeah. Jonathan Edwards, you know, wrote all those resolutions. he started them when he was 18. He did not finish them when he was 18, but they were resolutions related to his pursuit of God. And in his resolutions, Here's one of which he he he it his resolutions are, here's what I'm settled on. This is what I believe. These are unchanging truths of what I'm gonna pursue in my life. And then one of his resolutions. Resolve to be continually endeavoring to find out some new contrivance and invention to promote the aforementioned things.

speaker-0: Sounds like creativity to me.

speaker-1: Yeah, creativity. That's interesting. Yeah.

speaker-0: I think you know the Lord created us in his image. We serve a God that is very creative, obviously. We look all around the world and we see his creation around us daily. And we have been created in the image of God, which means that he has given to us, right, right, created within us a capability of being creative. So is it possible that if I am averse to doing anything different than what I've always done, then that also means that I'm adverse to being creative. I think probably. I think probably 'cause you're always doing what you've always done.

speaker-1: But if you're always doing what you've always done, it is not a law of the same return. Right. You can't be like, well, I've always done it that way. Therefore it's always going to be the same. That's not how we grow. I can't continually again if if I have a strong doctrine, this could be another podcast, of progressive sanctification, and I believe in progressive sanctification, and I believe as Dion Moody was saying and Edwards before him, we shouldn't be stuck in this rut. Or even as A.W. Tojer said, How soon are we going to shake ourselves out of this rut? Well then I've got to be willing to change. Yeah. Is that why churches are seeing a decline? An unwillingness to embrace change?

speaker-0: Yeah. I think one area especially that churches are seeing decline in is the area of the next generation. And we're finding even that the next generation either A walks away from church altogether, which that's very possible. And a lot of times, if if you've read Ken Ham's book, it it will even point out that they were gone before they, you know, graduated. And we're seeing that. We're seeing young people that are graduating high school and they're leaving. Like it's like, how how could you just all of a sudden make a decision to leave the church altogether? There's that group. There's also a group that has grown up in a church that has preached the gospel faithfully, but has not been willing to change creatively in ways in which they can even get the gospel into the community around them or invest into the next generation. So if if you're adverse to change, really. Your eyes are focused on who? On myself.

speaker-1: Yeah.

speaker-0: I'm I'm focused on myself. This is the way I've always done it. This is the way my dad did it. This is the way his dad did it. And so bless God, this is the way we're always gonna do it. Well, what we miss when we have that focus on ourselves is the generation that comes after us. Should we not be looking at, okay, how how will the church be operating when this child in the children's church wing is my age? Am I preparing them even for the work of the ministry, for the evangelism of the lost in our community? How can we help set them up for success here locally in our local church?

speaker-1: You sent me a link from a a post of a guy named James Bell, and I wanna show you that. It kind of speaks to that. It's a bit long. he says, I've pastored long enough to understand why change can be difficult for older Christians. Some have spent forty or fifty years in the same congregation. They remember when the building was constructed, when the classrooms were full, when certain families attended, when church songs sang songs that became inseparable from the psalm, some of their most meaningful memories. They buried spouses, baptized children, celebrated weddings, and formed friendships in these rooms. And when a younger generation begins changing things, it can feel as though something deeply personal is being taken away. I think we as younger pastors underestimate that grief. And I want to pause before any further and say, I agree

speaker-0: I'd agree with that.

speaker-1: up to this point. For sure. But I've also noticed that churches can become trapped when the people who sacrifice Build to build them, begin believing that their sacrifice has given given them permanent ownership over what happens next. The music cannot change because of what it used to mean, the schedule cannot change because of how things have always been done. The leadership cannot develop because younger people have haven't earned the same level of trust. And eventually the congregation becomes more concerned with preserving the experience of previous generations than preparing the church to serve the next one. I I wanna b we're gonna pick apart his own quote here. I I I we're sitting here on a Tuesday. This is October what is today's date even anyway. And the reason it's blending together is because we just hosted a a pastor's conference. So it was Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, full days. We were slammed. But according to tradition, and I'm bringing this up because I know that a lot of our listeners are Faith Baptists and Taylor's people. So you're gonna resonate with this if you are familiar with this. According to tradition Around here at Faith, basically, you could set your calendar and you would know that always the second Monday of the month is a seasoned Saints banquet. Well, we just had that FBF conference and pastors conference, and this yesterday we had a seasoned Saints banquet. And I actually did the devotional. And I was so glad to be with my friends. And everybody at the table, you know what they're talking about?

speaker-0: How tired they were. How tired.

speaker-1: Well, we had s we have scheduled ourselves into oblivion. We we we our tradition hurt us this week. Our tradition at Faith, Baptists, and Taylors hurt us this week. We really should have looked at that and said, that's too many events. And that's what he's saying. The schedule cannot change because of how things well, it should have this time. Yeah. And twenty twenty seven, our pastor I'm just gonna tell you, we will make sure that can do that way.

speaker-0: In fact, we just had that in one of our meetings today where we look ahead and we're saying we see two trains colliding in our schedule. I know we've always done this, but we need to make a slight change. Right. And that's where

speaker-1: Yeah, and it's we're not against season saints banquets or the other thing we talked about in our own staff meeting. He continues and says, eventually the congregation becomes more concerned with preserving the experience of previous generations than preparing the church to serve the next one. That is a difficult thing to acknowledge because the people resisting change may genuinely love the church. But love can become possessive when we begin treating something entrusted to us as something that belongs to us. I hope we raise generations of Christians who understand that their responsibility is not simply to preserve the church they inherited, it is to prepare a church that their children and grandchildren can faithfully lead long after they are gone. And sometimes that requires allowing the next generation to make decisions we would not have made ourselves. And that we might be in the next generation, but one day we won't be. Correct. And so this is not just preaching to someone else out there. Yeah. This is for us.

speaker-0: Yeah, and I've I've heard it friends growing up in youth group where very much the emphasis a lot of times was what we've always done tradition, this is how it's gonna be. There's no real explanation for it, except for this is how we've always done it. And a lot of those children have now grown up and are completely out of church altogether. I'm not saying that's why, but it did it aid in that. Right. Did we set them up for success? Have we were we planning for them the future?

speaker-1: Were we teaching them our traditions or were we teaching them truth from God's

speaker-0: Correct. And and let me tell you this, because I work with teens. Teens know when there's a valid reason for why we do what we do. And they also know when there is not really any whys behind what we do. They know it. They probably won't talk to you about it. They'll probably just dismiss it and say, Well, that's just that's just how they do it and in their minds are thinking, I won't do it that way when I'm older and I'll look for a church that won't be that way either.

speaker-1: Yeah, and there's we talked about this at lunch. There's two extremes to that kind of response. Like some th maybe three. Some would completely abandon church altogether. Yeah. Some would say they come from a conservative traditional church and they're gonna reject that, go very contemporary. Yeah. There's also the extreme I've seen more recently where they go to a church that's more liturgical in its service order. Right. You say, Well, how come they went from a conservative Baptist church to a more liturgical Anglican church or something like that? Well, because at least that church is explaining why they're doing what they're doing. And you and I may disagree with that, but they're at least willing to have a conversation. Whereas sometimes in conservative independent Baptist churches such as ours, we have our traditions, but we don't even know why we did it right.

speaker-0: It goes back to even when you're parenting. I've I've noticed even with our kids and my parents had the same philosophy as well that our our children can ask why. And we've always told our children, you can always ask why in the right spirit. Don't don't come in a disrespectful spirit and ask why. And you can ask why after you begin to obey what we've asked you to do. And my parents had the same philosophy, and it works when they're two, three, four to say because I said so. But genuinely, when they begin to get older and they enter those teenage years and they begin to question why, there's within that teen a spirit that genuinely wants to know, mom, dad, I just want to know why we've got to that conclusion. I genuinely just want to know what's the why behind it. And if I could see it, I'd probably be all all on board with it. But because there is no why, and it's, well, we've always done it this way, then there tends to be a pushing against it. And a lot of times that next generation will then go to find another church that gives them reasons why they do what they do, or at least go somewhere where it's not, shall I say, pharisaical, where people seem genuine. And a lot of times those those would be it's all fake. Yeah.

speaker-1: We're not a Methodist church. We're Baptist church. I'm literally wearing it on my shirt. Yeah. I'm about to quote a Methodist. yeah, yours is just faith. It doesn't say faith Baptist. I'm gonna quote a Methodist. This is John Wesley. So everybody should know. He he was concerned with this trend of not really teaching the next generation and where that could go. And here's what Wesley said: He said, I am not afraid that the people called Methodists should ever cease to exist in either Europe or America. But I am afraid lest they should only exist as a dead sect, having the form of religion without the power. And this undoubtedly will be the case unless they hold fast both the doctrine, spirit, and discipline with which they first set out. That that I agree with that one thousand percent, not from a Methodist perspective, but from an understanding that when we're talking about change, we're talking we need to start with where we already were. There are certain things that Do not

speaker-0: This is this is the emphasis. Right.

speaker-1: Right there. Doctrine, spirit, and discipline. Doesn't change. Okay. But there are things we are growing in. I am not the same man I was four years ago, five years ago. God forbid that I were. I I want to be growing and growth requires change.

speaker-0: Yeah. Even Paul, when right when he was talking to one of the churches, said, I wish I could speak to you, expound more, but I I need to give you milk. You're not ready for the meat. There there needs to be a change spiritually.

speaker-1: I just wanna help people think about this. We are losing churches in spades. I mean it just continues to happen. This is twenty nineteen, so I know we're in twenty twenty-six, but it gives us some numbers that even really more resonate. Churches club

speaker-0: By the way, this is yeah pre COVID. The

speaker-1: Yeah, it was pretty close.

speaker-0: the reason for the closing is not the pandemic.

speaker-1: That's exactly right. And that's why I wanted to start in 2019 because actually the numbers are worst since. Yeah. This is lifeway research of Protestant church openings and closures. Churches closed in 2019, 4,500. Churches started in 2019, 3,000. Net loss, 1,500 churches. This is a real, real problem. Why is that happening? Well Even amongst practicing Christians, it's been cut since 2000. This is now to 2025. In the year 2000, Barnard reported that about 2000 or 46% of people were practicing Christians. That's 2000. Today it's 2025. We're in 2026, 2025, 24%.

speaker-0: cut in half in five years.

speaker-1: That's

speaker-0: That's alarming.

speaker-1: yeah, this is from their study on faith shrinking influence. I mean, this is tremendously problematic. Why where is this coming from? Why are churches closing? Well, it really comes down to a resistance to change. In fact, one of those that was doing the studying was a man by the name of Scott McConnell. He does life weight research study. And they asked him, why are churches, like Abdeen, evaluating all these churches, Why are they closing? What is going on? Here was his answer. The idealization of the past as the preferred future. That was his reason. Really troubling considerations. Yeah. Right? Tom Raynor, understanding resistance to change in churches in his book, puts in general, the more a church is declining, the more fiercely its mainstream membership will resist change. Which of course is why it's in decline. I mean, this is a lot of guys have talking about talked about this. I I've got Corey Newhoff here. he says, there is no way I know to engineer significant change and keep everyone you've currently got. He continues and says, when you consider the ten or a hundred who might leave your church if you change, just pause to remember the almost ten thousand who aren't coming because so far you have failed to change. When you focus on complaints, you lose sight of the plant.

speaker-0: I think we've seen that already here as the emphasis really on the family has been a a a a change really from our philosophy here at faith. And we've added some really solid families that are like, That's where I'm at. That that's that's what I want in my home.

speaker-1: We've had people move across the country because of the family focus. Yeah. To use that as an example, we have had people locally leave because of that same family focus. It's a it's a unique dichotomy.

speaker-0: And that that's not just that. That's I think that's what Carrie Newhoff is mentioning, that whenever you have change, there's undoubtedly somebody that's gonna say, I'm out because change. Right. Not because I don't agree with what you're saying, not because I don't see the the the the good out of it. It just it's change. So I'm out.

speaker-1: Right. According to off, I like this next quote he puts in that same article. People talk about folks who are against change, but when you give those folks responsibility in the change, their attitude changes dr drastically. And that's what we want for our people. If you're listening to this, we want you to know we want you to be part of good, godly, focused on the word. And that may require change.

speaker-0: Complaining normally happens on the sideline.

speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well that's it in the same article. Will you focus on the people you want to reach or the people you want to keep? The more inward the church, the more resistant that church will be to change.

speaker-0: It'd be interesting to even for those of you listening that may be at other churches, just look around next time you're at at church, maybe at the beginning of a service or at the end, and just look around and and look for that next generation. Look for the teens, look for the kids. That this this is the future. I'm not saying that that is the church because the church is current right now, right? We're not gonna say that the the church is right there. It will be. That's the that's the future generation. Right. So what are we doing to help instill in them a reason behind why we believe what we believe, not reasons for, well, we've always done it this way. And then look around and see how many of the next generation are actually in your church. It might be alarming if you look around and you realize that everybody's the same age and you're all older. Well, do the math.

speaker-1: If your first response to any change in your home, your life, or your church is we've always done it that way, you're already wrong. Your first response has to be, what does the word of God have to say? Right. Now there are many chapters to this conversation. Perhaps I could turn the page for a second. We also know not only our churches closing, we've talked about that. We're we've lost another generation, we've talked about that. We also know statistically We A are not training up future pastors. And B, the pastors that are coming up are quitting pretty quickly. Well, why is that? And there's all kinds of studies in that indication too. Here's a study done by Lifeway Research. Why are more pastors thinking about quitting? It was done in twenty twenty four, so relatively recently. Forty one percent, according to their study. Of pastors who often considered leaving ministry said their congregation was unwilling to change to meet new challenges. Whereas 10% of pastors, according to this study, who never considered leaving ministry reported the same problem.

speaker-0: It's over half.

speaker-1: And 97% of those pastors who considered leaving ministry mentioned their church's unwillingness to make needed changes in their written comments. Either it was number one or two or three. It was in the top five of the reasons why they were quitting. was because their church was completely resistant to any kind of change. I'm just telling you, this is the issue. I'm I think we've kind of maybe touched a nerve on what the problems are now.

speaker-0: I think so. Yeah. Next generation is looking to you. It's looking to us for their future. I I want my kids when I come into church and I have my four kids there with me and my wife and I look down the pew, I see, I see an eleven-year-old and a nine-year-old and a six-year-old and a three-year-old that are going to be in my position one day as an adult with a family. And my heart is that they would be in church, that they would love the Lord. and would serve him. It is not my desire that they look the part. It's my desire that they have that type of heart. Right.

speaker-1: I mean let's just even think of it unique it uniquely in the children's side. Because I think sometimes to explain it for the adult side you can start with the kids. Okay. On a children's church level, you just met with our children's church leaders. What's our goal? Well start with that. Yeah. It's gotta we gotta start there. What is our goal? Yeah. If we're gonna sit down with a bunch of kids and have a time for children's church, what's the goal? That's fun.

speaker-0: That you bring that up because that was the question that was asked of me in that meeting. Yep. Across the board, even our teachers were like, What's our goal? So I'm helping them with that. Our

speaker-1: Right. Yeah.

speaker-0: our goal is that we want our children not to be babysat during the the church time, but that in that time they are being presented with God's word, the truths of God's word, and it is a resounding board, hopefully, of what they're hearing at home. Right. Mom and dad are the Primary disciplers and then you have some additions, some enhancers. And I would say that that children's church time is one of those. Yep. And we were just talking about this today that we wanted our children in more of the service time. Instead of singing a song and dismissing them, we want right up until the message and then they dismiss and they go have their challenge. Right. And it's not to fill in the time and space of of activities and and and quiz and trivia and it's it's we want these truths to be instilled in their little hearts so that when they're teenagers, right? Now I'm dealing with them at the teenage years, that's that foundation has already been

speaker-1: You never gave this answer. You never said, and I'm glad you didn't. You never said children's church exists to prepare them to sit in the adult service. You know why? That's not a good goal? Why is that not a good goal? Anybody.

speaker-0: sit and learn to sit still and be quiet, but not be godly.

speaker-1: Anybody can put on a costume. Right. Like I can get kids to put on a costume. Yeah. That's not our goal. So I'm not gonna teach them this is how we pass an offering plate. Yeah. I mean, I'm just let's bring up some some real life scenarios. Right. In children's church, I'm not all that interested in teaching them how to pass an offering plate. Now, do we pass an offering plate in our services? Sure. But is that important enough for me to communicate to teach to the kids? Not really.

speaker-0: may be a time and your child may be one of them that when they are your age are in a church where they no longer pass an offering plate.

speaker-1: It probably will happen.

speaker-0: It probably will happen. In fact it there was a time this doesn't always happen, right? They didn't do this in the temple, did they?

speaker-1: Well, there were churches in New England that used to pass the offering plate with a big long pole that went right in front of you from the front.

speaker-0: I'm so glad they got rid of that thing.

speaker-1: Are you ready? You giving it? Come on, come on. But that's not all that that's not a consequential now what is if we're talking about giving, I do want to teach them ha from God's word the principles of giving and tithing. Exactly.

speaker-0: And that happens at home. When my children earn money, the first thing that we talk about is, okay, let's let's sit down and let's talk about how we're going to handle this money. Well, there there needs to be some given back to the Lord. That that happens at home. It doesn't it shouldn't be manufactured in a children's church where we pass an offering plate and say, Okay, this is how you do it. Right. It should be from a heart that cheerfully says, I gotta give back to the Lord what he's given to me.

speaker-1: I'm not all that interested in children's church for that same reason in teaching them how to hold a hymnal, especially those that don't know how to read yet. Right. You know, let's give a four-year-old a hymnal. Why am I not interested in that? Because that's not really the motivation of why I even have a hymnal in my adult service. Although we have hymnals in our adult service.

speaker-0: It's so crazy to think, and maybe I'm gonna hit a nerve here. but when a lot of churches have gone to screens now where the music is on the screens, and I'm so thankful for that.

speaker-1: Yeah.

speaker-0: A lot of songs, and there's such a difference in somebody looking up and singing out than being stuck in their hymnal. Like the sound

speaker-1: Alone is better.

speaker-0: is better, but there was a battle that was being fought when screens came out.

speaker-1: I you remember that? I know.

speaker-0: There were people that were saying, I will I will never be in a church where screens are there. I want my hymnal.

speaker-1: Okay. I I know you're talking about this, but think about all the modern trappings. We've had to live through some of this. Some of you guys that are listening have lived through more of this. But do you remember the battles from wearing a lapel mic on your tie to wearing one around your ear? That was a big no no.

speaker-0: No no. And now it's like it's not a big deal. Like my children wouldn't sit in a in a service and say, Whoa, he's got one around his ear. That's

speaker-1: He got one on his ear.

speaker-0: not good.

speaker-1: You know what's funny? I actually have one on my ear and I d I don't like it particularly. It picks up better. It does, yeah. But I'll tell you know how I got it is I can blame my kids. So I was wearing when I first came to Faith and Taylor's actually, I always wore one on on my tie. And Hudson was little and I'd pick him up and he was would he three times in a row, is it's very fascinating to see the little foam you know thing. Yeah. pulled the top off of my lapel mic. Whole thing came off. Whole thing. Ripped the whole thing off. And Eli, our tech guy, finally said, 'cause he'd had to get me three microphones, he finally that fourth time bought me one from over the ear and said, I'm not buying you one of those things again.

speaker-0: Which is interesting 'cause that's the reason that you went to a near one. There may be somebody out there that says, Wow, he did that because he's doing and a lot of times we read into someone's decision worst case scenario.

speaker-1: I bet there are people that just now listening to this thought I was contemporary because I wore I y

speaker-0: Unfortunately, maybe.

speaker-1: I've learned more about myself from what people tell me I believe than what I actually believe. Which is part of the problem with this, we've never done it that way before, kind of thinking. We're we're not thinking biblical. We're thinking I don't even th there's many different ways. It's an arrogancy though, what it comes down to.

speaker-0: It is. It's a it's a pride issue. This is this is what I've always done. This is this there is no other way. That in and of itself is a very prideful comment.

speaker-1: That guy, James Bell, really good comment, really good post. Someone commented on this post, and and I I like you you pointed out. So we're going to grab a screenshot here. This shows the heart behind it. I'm not reading the lady's comment. You can go online and yourself, if you're listening, you can read it. so it's a publicly available comment. But he puts down here at the bottom: a church is at its best when every generation is treasured and given room to serve according to their gifts. Wow.

speaker-0: There have been times, and because I work with with teens, I've heard some of these comments that I want my heart's desire for our teens is the exact same heart that I have for my children. And that is that they would love the Lord with all their heart, soul, and strength, and that they would serve him, give everything to him. And I have had to much shame that teens that have wanted to serve and jump in, and there have been teens that haven't had the upbringing as as others have and and d quite frankly didn't come to church in a suit and tie and came in jeans and a polo. And which is the best that they had. And they were told by an adult that in order to serve they had to change their attire.

speaker-1: And they didn't own that. Yeah.

speaker-0: I if if that does not scream shutting down the next generation, I don't know what does. The comment that should have been made is, I am so thankful that you have a heart that wants to serve the Lord. Right. And if we had more older people that would make those comments to the younger generation, I wonder how much more we would see a fire lit in our teenagers.

speaker-1: And we're not saying in sequence that there aren't growth patterns that reflect differently at different times. You're I don't want you forever to be in the same way you are. Right. So I might see someone doing something, wearing something even that you go, you know, in context that wasn't the most appropriate thing. but that might be a discipleship conversation. It's certainly not an opening door conversation.

speaker-0: So often we play, we try to play the role of the Holy Spirit and changing the person in front of us and we forget, hello, the Holy Spirit's inside of them and he does the best at

speaker-1: That. Right. And that's why it's important to have this generational chapter that we've already gone through, because I can, you can, and any parent could teach their child to wear the conservative Christian costume. And they might even, and and as I'm saying this, friends, think about it in your own lives. I'm sure all of us have examples of this. Of young teenagers who grew up in churches like ours who sang in the children's choir, sang in the teen choir, maybe. adopted into the Dalt choir. Talented. Did a lot of wonder thing things for the Lord. And, you know, people on the sidelines were, you know, clapping for them. That that not clapping maybe spirit physically 'cause that we had the different conversations. But like, you know, wow, look at the talent that this young man or young woman has for the Lord and and encouraging him in that way. And then not long after they graduate from high school, they they're off the beaten path. They're not even attending church. If they are at the church, you wouldn't want them in. And you go, where did that come from? You know where it came from? You taught them a costume. You didn't teach them the word of God. Exactly.

speaker-0: Exactly. And the only reason maybe you're still in the church is because you you appreciated that and you wanted to hold on to it.

speaker-1: You wanted the cost.

speaker-0: You wanted the costume. And but there are others that said, you know what, forget that. It's all fake. I'm I'm going somewhere else. And that somewhere else can be detrimental.

speaker-1: Right. And this this is just on a leadership level. I I wanted to get to this chart here. I've been saving, you know, talking about churches closing, generations being lost, pastors quitting, right? There there should be a camaraderie. That's kind of why I wanted to have this podcast. Is I want our people to have the camaraderie with us to pursue right holy living, which would include proper evaluation and holiness through change. Here's one chart it says pastors who who have considered quitting. Are much more likely to describe their churches as resistant to change. And you can see kind of the exact this is from 2022, 510 Protestant pastors surveyed by Barna Group. Pastors who considered quitting, 31% said the congregation was somewhat willing to change. Pastors who did not consider quitting said 17%. And congregations are very willing to change, 10%, they're not gonna quit. 10%, they're not gonna quit. But once the congregation and the pastors work together, you see God's rewards. But when they're when they're both fighting two different battles

speaker-0: And we're we're not so naive to say this either, that the the pathway that is being laid down right now with us or with any other church and pastoral staff is not the end all either. I realize that even what we are doing in youth group may look very different in ten years. What if my son is a youth pastor? And what if I look to him and say, Hey, you you need to do it the way I did it? Right. That would be adverse to change. He's gonna have to deal with a very different culture. that I'm having to deal with right now. What are some creative ways in which we can help these young people grow up to love the Lord and to serve them with his whole with their whole heart?

speaker-1: Yeah, let's be very clear with what the goal in this mind is Hudson Taylor said. The church is not looking for better methods, God is looking for better men. Let's be very clear. Yes. That is our goal. I agree with Hudson Taylor with that one thousand percent. But better men are produced through being stretched and changed and pushed to be more like Christ. People don't resist change, they resist loss. That's different. Yeah. And that's where we really need to think about this conversation. Again, the seven most dangerous words in the church. We've never done it that way before. It shuts down any biblical conversation, it shuts down any conviction that we can have from the Holy Spirit, and it just marries ourselves to the past. And those who are married to the past in the present are destined to die in the near future. And that's where many of our churches are at. Yeah. Sad to say. Well, I'm glad we had this conversation.

speaker-0: I'll give you your seat back for the next podcast.

speaker-1: I don't know, I'm getting more comfortable. Now that wouldn't that be a change if we

speaker-0: Yeah, it would. Yeah. I don't know that I can do that.

speaker-1: We need a different table. We need to tell Craig to buy a darker table. Table.

speaker-0: We've always used this tape.

speaker-1: Always. This is now Sacrasaint. It'd be like akin to change in the carpet. Can't do that. Can't do that. Can't do that. Well, I'm glad that you can listen to this. I hope you've been benefited from this conversation. If you've been listening or watching, we do enjoy listening and hearing from our listeners. we've told you before, but it's been a couple podcasts since I reminded you. You can email us at info at faith. FBC info at fbctailors.org. Again, info at fbctailors.org. Those emails will get to us. We'd love to answer your questions if you have any. If you come to this church, you don't even have to email us. You can just literally, I don't know, talk to us. That's a blessing. That'd be a change. But change. Don't want to be doing that. and we can end with this joke. We're a Baptist church. You how many Baptists it takes to change a light bulb? Change. Change. Thank you again for listening. I hope that I'm encouraging to you. You're certainly free to ask and ask us some questions that we can answer in a future podcast. Thank you again. Thank you for joining us today. For more information about Faith Baptist Church, visit us at www.fbctailors.org.