Charlie: Today's guest and the first podcast to kick this series off is a true hero of mine with an incredible story showing grit, determination, and the power of the mind. He has been a huge inspiration to many and has been to Helen Back, and I have no doubt so many can learn from his story, his resilience, and his mindset. It's an absolute pleasure to kick this series off and introduce you to Vincent Hockley. Vince, tell our listeners who is Vince Hockley.

Vince Hockley: That was a strong intro and I'm probably going to make it sound boring now. So I guess the place to start is joining the military, joining the First Battalion Irish Guards in December 98, well, starting my basic training in December 98. Had a full career in the Irish Guards, finishing just shy of 24 years in that time, did... Five operational tours, multitude of promotion courses, strongly intertwined in the training role towards the back end. Left the military in December 23 and then I've embarked on various civilian ventures that have taken me kind of all over the world doing various things and keeping me interested and out of trouble.

Charlie: Amazing. and Vince, if we sort of go back to those early years, Vince as a as a young soldier, what was your kind of view of the world in those early years?

Vince Hockley: I would probably say it started with tunnel vision. I was always going to join the army. My grandfather was a guardsman, although he was a Colshane guard. So there was some disappointments when I joined the Irish Guards, but mostly proud. Yeah, it was always something I was going to do. It wasn't something I was prepared to do. And I found that out when I got there. I joined very young at 16. My kind of pre-military life I was, I would say, very looked after. Didn't have to do a lot for myself at home. So a big culture shock stepping into the grown-up world from that. So it wasn't something that I took naturally to either, but something I was always determined to do.

Charlie: Cool. And sixteen is obviously very, very young. what what was your sort of focus like at that stage in life? were you sort of very focused on promotion and things like that, or were you kind of just going with the going with the flow?

Vince Hockley: Very much just going with the flow. Yeah, like I said, I didn't take to basic training straight away. I found lots of elements of that difficult from a culture and being around grown-ups early on. Although skill-wise and actually being able to function as soldiers wasn't anything that I found difficult, but more just settling into the military way of life and doing things. So once I got through the training stage and actually joined the battalion, firstly, it was my first time being abroad and away from home because I went straight to join the battalion in Germany, in Munster. And although, you know, the basics that you get through training set you up, it was a completely different role because we were armoured infantry at the time as well, which isn't something you do touch on. in your basic training. So it was learning that. So it was very much turn up, mouth closed, ears open, soak it up, you know, and just find my place within the unit was the first thing, how early is it? It was never really about promotion. And I think I would say, you know, be bold as to say that's probably the same for a lot of people where promotion isn't. That's something that comes along as a kind of byproduct of just finding your way, mixed with some seniority

Charlie: Mm.

Vince Hockley: and showcasing the skills that you do have, rather than it's something that people strive for.

Charlie: And you know, as I say, you were very young, you gained a lot of operational experience, five operational tours, and some of those were when you were eighteen, I think, was your first operational tour. Can you tell us a little bit about some of those early experiences, operational experiences, prior to the incident which we'll which we'll come on to?

Vince Hockley: Yeah, it was actually a lot further on than that. So my first operational tour was Iraq in 2003 and we crossed the border on my 21st birthday. So there was a huge party and lots of fireworks provided by the Americans. But yeah, so my first operational tour was my 21st birthday. But that was kind of the start of a period of time where they came quick and fast. That was a very alien thing and although you know your training and everything sets you up, lots of overseas exercises building up so you learn to operate in different environments but nothing really prepares you for the first operational tour particularly when it's one of that magnitude than actually just getting there and doing it and that one was very strange because It started with an extended period of time living in the Kuwaiti desert and no one really being sure if it was happening or not happening. And then kind of in a flash it was on and we crossed the border into Iraq. And yeah, that was the first operational tour.

Charlie: What a what a birthday. I suppose

Vince Hockley: Nothing.

Charlie: being a young twenty one year old soldier going going into that environment, what what was your sort of mindset prior to to crossing the border when you were waiting in in QA? What you know, how were you thinking about it? What was your mindset? what were you what were your expectations on what the experience might be like?

Vince Hockley: I think that the answers really come with reflection, but thinking back to the actual time, it was a whole world of unknowns. But I would say very prepared. That's more on reflection. I don't think you think that when you sat there. I don't think you don't feel prepared, but I just think it's not where your mind is focused and your mind is more on the unknowns, not knowing what's going to happen. This was the first operational tour of that magnitude for a very long time. We had seniors and senior officers that had experienced operational tours, but they were peacekeeping, Northern Ireland, things like this. But actual... war fighting operation tours, there wasn't experience around to pull on. So was a lot of unknowns for everyone. And that's when I think you do rely on the training that you do have. More importantly, you rely on the people around you and looking at what they can do and kind of bouncing off each other. You you see someone doing something good thing like, OK, that's how I need to be doing that thing. And you kind of this kind of that group growth together in that sense, rather than pulling on experience because You know, for all the 15 plus year people around you, the experience wasn't here. So yes, there was good leadership around with, you know, that showed the leadership qualities that made you believe in the thing you were going to do and that you were going to be okay doing it. But actually experiencing what that looked like, that was kind of a, we need to feel it together and grow together as we do it. So a lot of unknowns, but definitely felt prepared.

Charlie: And and with all those unknowns, you know, f for for you personally, was there elements of nervousness, or was it you know, what was the dominant kind of thought as a young twenty one year old? Was it excitement or was it nervousness of the unknown? Was it doubt in your ability? what if if you sort of draw back, what what do you think it was?

Vince Hockley: I can actually think of a couple of examples to draw on because, and you'll know this, but you tend to be very busy, a lot busier than people would think when it comes to anything within the military. So actually there wasn't a whole lot of time to sit around and be excited or nervous or scared because there was always lots, you know, the next thing needed to be done. And it's actually in the moments where you've got those small bits of calm is where you would actually have those conversations. But one thing that is very good in the army setting, and you can call it brotherhood or just kind of the group mentality, is that very little is said in your head and it's normally said out loud. And one example of that, we've been fitting equipment to our armored vehicle. without going into too much technical detail. And it had been a busy couple of days doing that. And then somebody appeared with cold water and we'd had kind of, and I'm talking crazy desert, so cold water wasn't everywhere. And then while we kind of had a stop and everyone was, you know, checking back this, it's cold water. Someone said, it's all a bit scary, isn't it? And then everyone kind of just nodded and went, yeah, it is a bit, isn't it? And then. to write drink finish, we need to go and do these other things. So it's just like very small moments where someone says something out loud, there'd be some kind of agreement and then you just carry on.

Charlie: Yeah. And it as assuming, you know, a a lot of it is just that collective you're all going through the same thing, so you're sort of relying on each other and as you say, you're so focused on what needs to be done that it's sort of a a distraction, I suppose, from your own emotion.

Vince Hockley: Yeah, I think that one of the things that you do get in the military setting and you can put it under various different titles, but it's definitely the group mentality of everyone experience, all the good things and all the bad things together. And there's a lot of comfort in that, but it it kind of creates an environment where you have to step out of things that would normally be be holding you back because you're like, I'm doing it and everyone's doing it with me, then it's going to be OK. So that kind of group mentality is a bit of a safety net sometimes. Also, humour applied to everything, every situation. Some of the worst experiences of my life have still been met with some of funniest jokes, stories, and quips from different people. But also, one thing you do get from all the training that you do, and this is from basic training all the way through when you're in your unit and you're doing fully functioning overseas exercises, is that you don't get worried about the individual moment because you know that nothing's going to stop there. If that makes sense, you know, you're this might be terrible now, but that thing that we need to do tomorrow is still going to need doing and the thing after that and the thing after that. So it's not like, well, if this is really bad, we'll just stop it. not, it's not a which, which does go some way to kind of getting you through some of the tough moments as well.

Charlie: Yeah. And Vince, we're gonna slightly fast forward now. So you had a number of operational deployments in the I suppose b after that invasion of Iraq and we're gonna fast forward to October two thousand and ten when you were deployed to Afghanistan on Herrick thirteen. Give us a little bit of background about what your role was and I suppose more personally again. where your he head was at prior to to that deployment in the early days. You had now, you know, been exposed to combat in on on numerous operational tours. What where was your head at and and as I say, yeah, what what role were you were you doing there?

Vince Hockley: Well, the that whole journey really started with the fact that I had just finished a long stint as an instructor at the Infantry Training Centre in Catrick. And I was returning from that post two and half years I did there. I was returning from that post joining the battalion during the preparations for that deployment. so it was very much, another example of a very busy, I kind of, had to move house, then get reacquainted with, a new company, a new platoon. my role was as a section commander. so, standard would be leading a team of eight. worked some, a lot of the time in multiples. So my role would then become a multiple two IC. so, yeah, it was, it was a very busy transition from kind of teacher instructor into commander leader operationally. So yeah, the mindset was just to get in and get bedded in quickly and get prepared, get to know both the people I'd be working for and would be working with and for me. So it was a fast turnaround. So that was kind of the mindset was, know, I need to get in and get stuck in quickly because, you know, the weeks were vanishing and we were in the thick of pre-deployment training when I arrived in Windsor.

Charlie: No, it's it seems to be a common thread that too busy to to think about things seems to be yeah reoccurring. so on the seventeenth of November 2010, an incident occurred which I'll Vince let you divulge as little or as much as as you feel comfortable. But before we do that, leading up to that, can you remember the hours prior to that. Did did anything feel different?

Vince Hockley: not specifically for, for that patrol, for that particular action, not necessarily ours leading up to, but it was a very different situation. so, I'll leave names, et cetera. but we were, we were in one location that was held by, an entire company. and then there was a new, patrol base platoon sized. construction effectively. a brand new piece of ground, there was nothing existing there with regards to security forces and UK forces. The patrol base was built and then we were the first ones to go and and occupy it once it had been built. So not so much a different feeling leading up to that particular event. just generally the few days before that when we first arrived, it was just very new. was lot of, you know, soaking up the atmosphere, it's learning what the area was like both geographically, politically, you know, what the key locations with civilians were and just really understanding the ground and both the physical and the human terrain that we were going to be operating in. So it was very much a a learn stage that we were in at that point.

Charlie: Okay. And Vince, as I say, divulge as little or or as much as as as you feel comfortable, but can you tell us a little bit about the incident?

Vince Hockley: Yeah, so I'll give, I'm happy with details and I'll give a full description, but just with the caveat that it's only how I saw it, how I felt. won't mention other people because I think that's their story to tell. But really from my perspective, it was an operation supporting the Afghan National Army. They were doing, effectively doing a search operation and we were supporting it. So we were a satellite in call sign. So we were doing external security, a bit of show of force while they did their thing, bit of distraction as well. And we found ourselves, I would say, 600 to 800 meters from where they were conducting their action. We were meeting and greeting locals. Again, as I say, we were still in that learn phase of the area. but also in a position where we could react and support the Afghans during their action at the same time. So it's kind of a dual-rolled patrol, as most of them often are. And during their arrest up, we had some chat over the radio. So the interpreter carries a radio, listens in on any chat that's picked up on different frequencies, and then relays those conversations to us. And there was a particular bit of information that the interpreter gave that said that, know, that firstly that there was conversation going on between people that sounded like they were armed and maneuvering for want of better terms. And some of that information was to do with a machine gun, a heavy machine gun or what they called the big thing, which we learn was a common term for heavy machine guns. At that point it wasn't clear whether that was them talking about their heavy machine gun, which would have been very worrying, or whether they were talking about our own, and whether they were citing their own position or whether they were talking about the positions we had cited. And then it became more clear that they were definitely talking about our machine gun and our patrol. particularly. Just by nature of the ground, was quite open. There were some small bits of cover, a few outbuildings, a few irrigation ditches. But for the most part, it was flat farmland. So of course, we then needed to start to maneuver into a position where we wouldn't be sat in the middle of one of those fields if that chap turned into action that we were hearing. So various things that I don't really want to go into too much about like the TTPs and how we would react in those situations too deeply. But we found ourselves in some cover as best as we could. And then we started to prepare to extract from the fields into a better piece of ground. You're thinking, well, why weren't you just in that better piece of ground? Obviously, it's to do with supporting the operation and being a show force. You want to be seen. And this was the point where, the scene is one thing, but now we need to be in a position where we can fight from. So we started that maneuver. And it was during this kind of preparatory move that the first shots were fired. The first. Two shots were very quick and were about 50 meters in front of me and I only know that because the dirt sprays up when the rounds impact the ploughed dirt on the farmland and then that was very quickly followed by lots of firing going in both directions. As I said different people have their own versions of the story so I will just cover that bit by saying there were multiple casualties. and we did lose someone as well in that ambush. Sorry, so it turned out to be a three-point ambush. So three enemy firing positions all kind of firing in to our location.

Charlie: turned out to be a three point ambush. So three enemy firing positions all kind of firing in as well.

Vince Hockley: So yeah, we took a lot of casualties and then of course trying to move out of that space and extract. We're talking about people carrying a lot of heavy equipment on their backs. So it's not just a case of you've got to move a casualty, it's the casualty and the equipment. So once you take your third, fourth, fifth casualty of a 16-man patrol, you very quickly start running out of manpower to move people and fight. So it gets a little bit sticky. And it was during the moving extraction. From reports I've read, I think I was fourth to be hit.

Charlie: Red I think I was fourth to be hit. we with multiple injuries. we also had a lot of people that were hit and were fine, various bits of equipment, body arm, helmets, being hit.

Vince Hockley: We had casualties with multiple injuries. We also had a lot of people that were hit and were fine various bits of equipment, body armour, helmets being hit. And yeah, so to my injuries, I received one gunshot wound which entered just below the left buttock. I was dragging somebody else at the time. So you can imagine my posture in that position. So it wasn't kind of a straight into thigh buttock area, but actually then up through the hip and femur joint through the stomach area and then would have come out of my left chest because it traveled through the chest cavity, but was stopped by the underside of my body on my plate. That found me lying face down in the dirt for what seemed like an eternity. pretty sure wouldn't have been. And then the guys actually, they'd managed to move the majority of people and equipment and had fought back and won the firefighter, which then allowed for first aid to be administered under fair safety. Yeah, I received treatment there at that point. And then we had helicopter support and eventually we were... We're extracted from that position altogether with myself and four others heading off to Bastin Hospital.

Charlie: Well, Vince, thank you very much for sharing that. What was going on inside your head? I mean, I assume there are multiple moments in these early stages you don't remember probably drifting in and out of consciousness, I would assume. But what was what was happening inside your in inside your head at this moment?

Vince Hockley: I'd probably break that down into two parts. So face down, which is where I initially fell under the weight of my own kit, damage to the chest area, breathing wasn't going particularly well either. So it was kind of lie down and suck in air. Those moments from kind of a mental place. A couple more rounds hit my equipment. because I felt the the impact in and I could still hear plenty of sort of crack of rams you know overhead so the initial incident was well I know I'm hit I didn't really know where I was hit because the feeling actually was so pain in the hip which obviously wasn't the the entry wound but it was where the majority of bone damage was and everything else was extreme heat Then followed by, I know that's not good. And laying face down under the weight of your kit, unable to move and then hearing lots more shots ringing out around me and feeling my kit and equipment on my back being hit by further rams. It was very much a, I'm probably just going to lie down here and wait for the next one or two to finish me off at some point. Which, you know... I think is a fairly normal response in the situation, especially having seen other people around you be hit badly as well. So yeah, it became a kind of, okay, well, that's that done. And it kind of this mentality came into some of my rehabilitation actually, because it wasn't like some strange acceptance of death or any macho. behind it, was simply I can't do anything, I physically couldn't move, so it was I cannot impact anything at this stage and I could hear the shouts of comrades around me and their weapons firing so it was the case of you know that they're in the worst place because they're still dealing with things all I can do is just lie here so that's pretty much my bit done. So it really wasn't met with any kind of panic or anything because I think panic comes from I can still do something so then the mentality of what are you going to do that's where the panic would have come from and I don't want to say calm because it definitely wasn't calm but it was very much a I can't do anything so I'm just waiting now

Charlie: O on reflection, does your reaction in that immediate aftermath surprise you? Or is that what you would have anticipated to be your reaction? Was there was there anything in your head you know, I I appreciate it's it's not a resignation, it's just y there is nothing more you can do and not calm as you say, but sort of more calm than perhaps one would anticipate, because There's nothing to to try to do. Did did your reaction surprise you?

Vince Hockley: I don't think so because I don't think, I think actually what that mentality led into was, more, disappointment that there wasn't anything else she could do. particularly from, you know, if you think about from a commander perspective, like I should have been up there somewhere on a knee, dictating some things, getting people to do other things. And it just wasn't in that. position. So I would say that it was more, I was surprised at the disappointment that I felt rather than my actual reaction. And once I'd kind of, once the firefight had been won, and it came to the point of the medics getting around and actually looking after people, I was spun over then onto my back and stuff started getting taken off me and stripped down to check for wounds and then initial first aid given. That was a complete shift and I would not be able to put a length of time on that whatsoever. It felt like about 14 months but it was probably a few minutes. But that point where I was turned over I could then see, I couldn't see a whole a great deal it was mostly blue sky. but I could see little bits, I could see people moving around me. And I think that's where I got more anger and frustration because then I could see what was happening. Then you start to piece together what you could be doing in that scenario, how you could be helping the person that's doing X, Y and Z and then you become more frustrated that you can't join in. So then the difference in kind of just being face down and dark and not knowing what's going on lent itself more to a... Okay, well, can't even say anything to anyone because I can't see what they're doing versus now can see it. Now I'm more frustrated. So I got more angry once I was on my back and could see what people were doing. And there was a bit more of a fight to the things that I was saying. But one of my greatest memories of that, kind of that part of the action was seeing a very good friend of mine, Gaz. who walked over, like stepped over me going one way and then stepped over me going back the other way but carrying a machine gun and then he went out of sight to me and then I heard the machine gun going and I was kind of shouting, go on Gaz. So he's just trying to join in with the little bits that I could to, even if it was just a bit of cheerleading from the sideline.

Charlie: And Vince, then there was an a a series of events that took place. You were evacuated back to Bastion, back to the UK via Cyprus, I think. and you know if if there's anything you know in over that period that you you you want to draw out then then then please do. You presumably a lot of this you can't remember, you were unco unconscious. Can you tell us a little bit about what that journey looked like and then the point at which you sort of regained consciousness and had an awareness of what had happened, I suppose, back in back in the UK?

Vince Hockley: Yes. So the initial extraction to Camp Bastian Hospital, one of the things, and you're absolutely right, there was various bits of going to sleep, being put to sleep, dropping off the radar and being resuscitated, a lot of medication. the picture isn't 100%. But there are a little... there are snippets that have always stuck in my mind. And I would say from that first extraction and the arrival into Camp Bastion. And I've actually had done talks with some people from the medical service about this and it's absolutely done on purpose and I didn't realize it at the time. But I was taken from the airframe, so landed via C-130. then transplanted into an ambulance, a field ambulance, and then driven to kind of the area they take you into when you're extracted off the ground like that. And everything from the point of the first round being fired to the point of arriving at the actual entrance to the hospital in the ambulance, as in on, you know, wielding on the bed, is all chaos. It's lots of noise. It's lots of different thought processes that you go through. You've got people injured that some are asking for help, et cetera. Again, don't go too into details of other people. But it's chaos. It's noisy. It's busy. that, you know, then you're receiving the first aid yourself, which is also chaos. You've got various medics and surgeons. The AeroMed people on those extraction aircraft, unbelievable, the things that they were just getting on and doing whilst, know, banking hard left on an aircraft was phenomenal. That's, you know, the administering of narcotics happened heavily on there as well. So I don't remember a whole lot of that journey. But the one thing that really stuck out is at the end of all that chaos, you're pushed through. a set of doors into a corridor at the hospital at Camp Bastian and everything goes super quiet, super calm and super chilled in an instant. As soon as those doors open, you notice it straight away. And then you have a corridor that is lined with various experts, doctors, surgeons, kind of, you know, the big players in their field. And they just talk to you very calmly. So as you get to the anaesthetist, He'll lean over the bed and sort of you what's going to happen. Then you'll get to the surgeon, I'm going to do your initial surgery and so on and so forth. And you just, they just meet you with a very calm and it's going from that, that crazy chaotic side to you could have been sat in an A &E ward in any hospital in the UK in an instant. And that was a very grounding thing. I think it shifts the mentality massively at that early stage.

Charlie: Does it does that calmness give you reassurance?

Vince Hockley: Yeah, it gives you reassurance because I think that really you're part of the chaos. Whereas when you get in there, it's kind of your first time where you go, okay, now I'm in everyone else's hands and they're just going to do their thing. So I think it is a very calming thing because it's almost like the fight isn't yours now. It's everyone

Charlie: Mm.

Vince Hockley: else's and it does give you that kind of leveling.

Charlie: Then so you were in Bastion for a period of time you were operated on in Bastion?

Vince Hockley: Yeah, I've had two operations in Bastion. I don't really know all the technical terms. I know I had a laparotomy. I think that's more to do with infection. So take everything out, jet wash it, and put it back in. And the removal of the bullet, clearing the bullet track where the bullet had traveled, I think was the initial thing was to make sure that there wasn't going to be any kind of secondary things from infections and everything else because they don't close you up at that point because I know it could be further operations so you kind of worked on and packed out and I have some lovely gruesome pictures of that that I can send to your child but yeah so initial two initial operations in bastion

Charlie: And then flown back to the UK, back to Birmingham.

Vince Hockley: Yeah. Yeah.

Charlie: And then woke up in a hospital bed in Birmingham.

Vince Hockley: no, there's some more excitement in between those two things. So some of this I didn't know at the time and I learned after when actually in the hospital in Birmingham, but my first resuscitation was in Bastion Hospital. That was very uncomplicated. I was on an operating table anyway. And then, yeah, I was resuscitated and then carried on doing the work and then I went back to the hospital bed and I didn't know that at the stage because I just went under and then came around in the bed in Bastion. Moving from the UK, AeroMed flight back to the UK. This was probably one where I would go more into detail on the resuscitation that happened. So two resuscitations in total. I can't remember for the life of me the numbers, but my blood oxygen level numbers were at a scary stage. So on the AeroMed flights, there's a team of nurses that kind of look after you and give you any sort of treatments and medications that you need during the transit. And it's a team, they rotate around people and just keep monitoring. and looking after everyone. And I ended up with having two just that were kind of permanently sat with me. And it was at some point, and there was another guy that was injured with me, his injury was gunshot wound to the arm. And again, I'll leave names out, but he was kind of sat with me because he was kind of, you know, dressings bandaged up and arm kind of strapped to him and a very bad injury but he could still walk and talk so he was kind of sat with me and chatting and at some point and I've got it clear in my mind but hard to put into words but deteriorating it would be the best word to use I knew I was deteriorating in some way shape or form And it was the one time I can say that, where I truly believe that in certain situations, that it becomes almost a fight of will to keep going. And I felt that I was having that fight. I was like, I've got to get back to the UK. I've got to get back to UK. And I was kind of hanging in there. And I remember turning to this, the lad that sat with me. And I said to him the words, I don't know if I can keep doing this. And then alarms went and nurses rushed over. And then I don't really remember much else of the flight there. But again, I was told that I was resuscitated again at some point during that flight, which resulted in an emergency landing in Turkey as opposed to the planned landing in Cyprus. Then there was some confusion. Again, I found found this out afterwards. I wasn't really with it. I was floating in and out at this stage. I remember that we were on the ground. I remember being told we were in Turkey, but don't remember anything else. But there was some something happened where they couldn't get me off the aircraft. So we then refueled and took off again and then didn't do the planned cyber stop. We went all the way back to the UK. And again, after that kind of initial fighting feeling, I don't remember much else about that trip back to the UK. Landed at Birmingham International Airport where of course there had been an incident that had meant the closure of the planned runway so they had to go circle around again and eventually were given a runway. I was told after the pilot had a lot to do with that and there was lots of choice words to whoever pilots speak to but but they got the aircraft on the ground and then I was in an ambulance, civilian ambulance from the airport to Queen Elizabeth Hospital in Birmingham. And the fun of the day wasn't over at that stage. Now I was fully awake in the ambulance. I remember everything in the ambulance. And the ambulance driver, it was his first day on the job. The usual thing happened, police escort for the ambulance. to make sure it gets through where it needs to go. And there was a red light and the escort went straight through and the ambulance driver stopped. And the RAF nurse that was looking after me completely lost it. There was some choice words with the ambulance driver. And then off we went and we eventually got there.

Charlie: And was there was there a moment when you arrived in hospital and I suppose things kind of slowed down? You had done the hectic transit, you were in a hospital bed, and you sort of had a realisation perhaps of how bad the injuries were, how long the recovery is potentially gonna take. What was the darkest point?

Vince Hockley: I think, initially it was arriving at the hospital because it was straight into, obviously the flight hadn't gone well. and it was right straight into theater. which yeah, it wasn't, it wasn't great timing because if you imagine that whole process of, of you're in the hospital at Baston, you're having operations there, then they moved back and then you're like, okay, well I'm home now. as in I'm back in the UK. But that trip hasn't gone well. And then the next stage of kind of how things went and where I was, I would say it's the first time because the trip and the, you know, then the fighting with things and kind of that, that whole piece was still very much, well, I'm not really controlling anything. It's just, this is just the process. I'm on this journey. And then when you arrive at Queen Elizabeth Hospital, then I was like, OK, well, now it's just a case of I'm just in the hospital and things are going to get fixed. But also it was the first run in with my family and it was it was a very quick he's going straight into emergency procedure and based on how that trip had gone, it wasn't. it wasn't a given that I would be wheeled back out of it again in one piece and it was very much a we'll let the family see you first just in case you don't get to but actually knowing that and hearing that out loud was the first time I was like okay so this isn't this isn't just me like on this journey and actually you know I would say it's the first time I was scared was when it was was that that operation I think everything else was like, it's almost like the, though Bastion Hospital and the aircraft weren't out on the ground, it was all part of the Afghanistan bubble. So it was like, well, this, that's just what that is. Then being home, you don't think you're in that bubble anymore. And then when you told, okay, we're going to let your family come and see you before you go in. And they came into the anaesthetist room before they put me under and I had, you know, all of. 30 seconds and then it was kind of like that sort short period of time before I was put under through the anaesthetic was the first time I was lying there going wowzers this

Charlie: Yeah.

Vince Hockley: might not be okay.

Charlie: Yeah. I suppose i it it sounds like that's kind of that was the transitional point from up until then it was soldier Vince who was just thinking about what the next thing he should have been doing was frustration about not being able to be in the fight, what that process was to get you, you know, back and you're you're in your military mindset, I suppose, relying on your on your training and what you know and then I guess that seeing your family is that bit which tips you into family vents and you know, that it's not just about you as a soldier, there's a whole other component as well.

Vince Hockley: Yeah, exactly that. I think going through all of that and seeing the two sides of it, it did start to shape my mentality again on reflection, looking at how I handled my recovery and everything. Apart from a few things from when I was younger, this was the real building blocks and the tools being put in the toolbox. of how I then approached my recovery. Because there were lot of things that were roaring there that I didn't really have control over. And

Charlie: Mm.

Vince Hockley: yeah, almost no control over whatsoever.

Charlie: And I'm really keen to, yeah, get onto that and and and tap into that sort of process that you went through mentally on that recovery journey. Was it was there a moment you sort of when you first thought maybe I can come back from this injury? and almost a a more positive feeling, you know, as you say when you're wheeled into the Operating theatre it was kind of about survival and that was touch and go. When was your first point at which you thought maybe I can come back from this? And I suppose w was it a conscious effort to refer reframe how you were approaching what lay ahead or or did one day you just think I might be able to might be able to come back from this?

Vince Hockley: I yeah, I think it was more, there was some stubbornness involved, definitely, which kind of, you know, I spoke about earlier about, you know, not really fitting into the Milch culture straight away. But the stubbornness was there. There was no way I was, that wasn't going to be the end of that story. I was stubborn enough that, you know, I'm going to stick it out until I do. And there was a bit of that involved. But actually, I think it was fairly reactionary. And I think I just, had, when it became very clear that I started to separate the things that I was in control of and the things that I wasn't in control of, I think it became more about like doubling down on the things I could control and that every time something else, you know, came into the path or blocked the path, it was literally an approach of, is that something God can do something about? If it isn't. I'm not going to worry about it. It will be what it is. But this thing over here that I can control, I'm going to really focus everything on that, which was a little bit of a coping mechanism for the things that I couldn't control, but also made sure that the things that I could control, I absolutely did control them to the fullest. So yeah, I think that was the mentality. it came from, the first step was I woke up. from the emergency procedures in the Queen Elizabeth Hospital and waking back up was like, great, that is definitely step one in the bag because that was the bit I was worried about when I went to sleep. Then it becomes a little less personal around the hospital then because you see lots of other injured people that visibly definitely had way worse injuries than I had and a lot more. to worry about going forward than I had. So I think that stage kind of you away from, this is so terrible, to what do I now need to do? And I think that is a little bit the mentality that you get from the military. It's a little bit to do with the mentality I had myself, again, that stubbornness. But also the approach of separating things into the things you can control and things you can't actually came from my grandfather who would always say things like that to me. One example that always sticks in my mind was literally about cleaning my school shoes. As simple as that, where I was worried about a particular test that I was going to have in school and was I prepared for it and like studied enough and my grandfather just said to me, know, you need to clean your shoes. And I was kind of everywhere erratic, but I've got the, focusing on this thing and I've got that. And he's like, but you either know that now or you don't know it. You can't control that. You can't control what the questions are going to be, but you can control the fact that you don't have other things to worry about. Like, have you had your breakfast? Have you cleaned your shoes? Have you done this? Have you done that? And that was like, it's a very simple example of it. But was his approach to a lot of things and something that he would always say to me, because as a young lad, I was very erratic, where I would think about a hundred things and they would all be a problem. If you take

Charlie: Mm.

Vince Hockley: five of those things and sort them out, they're not a problem. And then all you're left with is the things that you can't control. And that was kind of where some of that thinking came from. And yeah, that mixed in with kind of looking around and seeing like there are a lot of people in that hospital. that have way more on the can't do anything about it list that are going to have to deal with that than I do. And I have a lot more on the you can probably do some stuff yourself here, which is then kind of my mentality going forward from that point.

Charlie: So i that's really interesting. It sounds like there's there's kind of two learnings which which I take away from that. And I think a lot of people have heard the control the controllables piece before, but to actually do it and live it particularly when you're going through something as traumatic as you've just been through, where the negative thoughts, the emotional side of it must at times have been very strong, must be really challenging to just focus on that. But I suppose maybe that, you know, when you were when you were young, your your grandfather instilling that in you and it's kind of building these small habits so that when something catastrophic like that happens later in life and yes, maybe it was as simple as cleaning your shoes, but do you think building those small habits, those small, you know, in much much more benign environments thinking like that, training yourself to think that, you know, maybe subconsciously, then had an impact on such a huge the way you approach such a huge catastrophic event.

Vince Hockley: Yeah, absolutely. And it's something both on reflection of my particular experiences, but also conversations around mental resilience with other people from all different walks of life. And a common theme is absolutely about, you know, having those tools in the toolbox and not necessarily lived experiences, but just taking the time sometimes to think what would I do in that situation? A lot of content that I consume is around that. listen to people's experiences. There are a lot of people that do kind of, you know, do talks about how they've, they've coped with different things in their life. And I would say there's more benefiting in consuming that content and thinking in those examples, if I was in that same situation, how do I think I would have reacted?

Charlie: Hm.

Vince Hockley: And then, and then building a mindset around that rather than thinking, I should react exactly how that person reacted, if that makes sense. And definitely I think tools in the toolbox is a phrase that I throw around quite a lot. And it definitely is, even through some of my experiences and things that I, how I approached them and how that benefited me, but also how

Charlie: Mm.

Vince Hockley: I approached some things and it didn't and it slowed me down or I had bad days because of how I'd reacted to something, just having that reflection going. in that very worst of circumstances, how would I want myself to react and what does that physically look like?

Charlie: And y that sort of brings me on nicely in that I assume, you know, people going through these journeys and in in your experience going through such a traumatic journey, the journey's not linear. You don't get better and better and feel increasingly positive every single day, I would assume. you don't have your first positive thought about I can get better, and then it just gradually gets better and better. I assume you had lots of setbacks which, you know, made thinking as rationally as you've described challenging at times. Are there any which you can think of and I suppose how did you overcome those? You talk about tools in a tool set. So one thing might work But you have to be able to adapt because there's no one that can teach just this is the mindset hack from Vince being what he's gone through. You learn this and you'll get through anything. How did you adapt? What what did those setbacks look like? yeah.

Vince Hockley: So the setbacks themselves through that particular journey was a lot around probably around two things. So there were the physical things. There were more emergency procedures, a lot around infection, around wounds not healing how they should heal, nerve damage coming to the surface, literally. And sort of, yeah, physical setbacks that had me back in the hospital a few times, six operations total across that whole time. There was the fact that some of those things impacted other things I was doing. So I learned to walk properly again. I don't want that to sound more dramatic than it is. It's simply a case of if you've been off your legs for a long time and that being with joint damage, which I had, then walking habits are different. So it wasn't like you won't walk again. It was more of a, you're going to walk ridiculously if you don't train yourself to walk properly again. So there was a lot of physio around that. There was a lot of muscle wastage from being, yeah, so I kind of went hospital bed to wheelchair to walking stick. And at each of those stages, there was a lot of physio that was required just because of different muscles you're not using. But then I would have the physical setbacks with wounds. There would be days where the nerve damage was almost like having electric shocks where I just couldn't do anything else other than kind of sit and cope with that, which set a lot of the physio back. So yeah, lots of challenges that came up. Then there were the other challenges of just being a functioning human in those circumstances. Yeah, being in a wheelchair and a thamplucky style, that was a short stint, know, and somebody will have to cope with that for life. But it was, you know, it was a new thing. I was in a house that wasn't, didn't lend itself to that, which came with some... complications and just, you know, learn how to manage things at home through the recovery period as well. And then there was the mental side of it. Initially, my unit was still out there, was still receiving casualties, severe casualties, some killed in action while I was sat at home and kind of, you know, that bringing everything back to the forefront. And again, you know, at times feeling helpless because you should be there, you should be participating and things like that. But just kind of taking all those things and again thinking, OK, well, there's only certain things that I can do in this scenario at home. Got to get on with it, find new ways, asked for help, got help. Physically, that was out of my hands. Turned up to appointments and whatever they did, they did. And then kind of just making sure that, you know, I reset when it came to the physio and the setback didn't diminish my approach to it. And I still threw myself into it and got as much out of it as I possibly could.

Charlie: Vince, now the thing I really wanna dig into here is what your sort of journey back to normal, I suppose normal life looked like. So you didn't just return to kind of regular service, which at times in itself was in question, I suppose, whether you ever would soldier again. You seemed to grab the bull by its horns and and start to I suppose challenge yourself in so many areas of your life. Why why do you think this was?

Vince Hockley: So the first step back and kind of joining back up with the Irish Guards, we did a return to work program. So you're throwing back in and do full days, full weeks and partying, everything. You kind of go back to finding your feet. And I guess the first thing I would say is if you're on a journey where you are trying to get back to something and getting back to that thing is super challenging. then you just got to think about how much you want it and if you actually do want it, because there were plenty of other people in situations similar that didn't, were very much like that is that is the end of that, that chapter of my life. And absolutely understandably, it never was for me. And it was more about like getting back to where I want to be. biggest part of that is getting back to that job. Again, joined at 16, hadn't known anything else, had never had an inkling at all that I would ever want to do anything else. It was like, this is what I'm doing until I'm too old or too slow and someone tells me I can't anymore. So there wasn't another option in my mind. So that is obviously going to be a huge driving factor. you know, there was was nothing else on my plate. A lot of time where I was, I would say I was medically now capable and working on the getting physically capable. But alongside that, there was a lot of concerns about employability. So lots of roles that I knew once I was medically capable, I could get to do. But there weren't the things I wanted to do. there weren't the things I wanted to do because For me, my soldiering career had always been, I'm doing this bit and I want to do that bit next. Whereas I felt and absolutely could have got it wrong. But at that moment in time, it was very much a case of, if I go into the roles I know I'm medically capable, but perhaps not physically capable to do. That's what that career looks like then. I stay within that lane, which isn't how I saw. you know, a future in the military and I generally thought if it's that then maybe I am done or I'm done within a unit like that. I had other things that I potentially would have explored and that's the thing as well Charlie. I very much like to deep dive into things so as soon as it came to a point where I may not return to a fully functioning section commander in an infantry unit. I was already researching what things do interest me that I would put myself into that may still be open to me. And I explored a lot of those avenues, it was never, well, if I can't do this, I'll settle for that. It was an exploration of would I be interested in it? And if I wouldn't be interested, I wouldn't have settled. I would have just left. So it was very much an approach of a cabal. I'll look at those things. So I have all the information in front of me and then I can make real decisions. But really it was all about getting back to the Osh guards, back to my original unit, preferably in the role that I left it in. And that's where the focus

Charlie: Mm.

Vince Hockley: was. So all these setbacks and kind of how am I going to react and approach things from that moment on were Well, how do I get to that bit that that, you know, I had a finish line in mind, so it wasn't the case. I'm just on the journey and it's going to go where it needs to go. I had a path carved out myself.

Charlie: Yeah, so a clear goal, a plan to get you there, and I suppose so much purpose, you know, it's all you knew soldiering was su i such a well was such a big part of your life and there's so much purpose behind it. Do you think there are notable ways your your mindset and sort of resilience had changed compared to pre incident Vince?

Vince Hockley: Yeah, well, I actually surprised myself with some of the approach and this, you know, and keep circling back to, know, there are things out of your control and things in your control. So double down on things in your control. So not necessarily surprised myself within the military context, but actually it was more of a realization of how much you can actually achieve with that mindset. And then realizing that you can apply it in lots of other ways. I got heavily into physical fitness, but that wasn't straight away. So that happened in 2010. I think it was approaching two years before I was back and kind of physically fit. And then 12 months after that, I was back in Helmand province in Afghanistan, albeit not on the ground in a war fighting sense. I had other roles, but they were still within a unit that was doing that in a job that I could add lots of value to what they were doing. So I felt that it was worthwhile. But at that stage, I'd kind of fitness was a different thing. So fitness leading up to injury was army fit is all that mattered. I could pass all the tests and could pass them comfortably and I always could. So that's where injury got to. Or fitness up to the point of injury. Then post injury was, well, I need to be fit enough to just about pass those tests because my body's not great now. There's lots of things wrong with it. But if I don't pass those tests, then I'll... you know, then there is no more future in the army for me. So I got to that point with lots of help and again I'm purposely not speaking of individuals but there were commanders that were in and around me at that part of my life rejoining the battalion that really helped me set those conditions where I could keep pushing myself and some of the blockers that might have been in the way were helped. to be removed and always forever grateful for the people that helped me with that. Then I get to 2013. And yeah, this is different then because what I want to do at this stage is not be just about army fit. I want to see if I can go beyond where the fitness I was at before. That might seem strange, but actually it comes from the rehabilitation work that I've done because instead of putting a pair of trainers on and plodding or putting weight on my back and doing the standard military fitness, I was doing lots of things around balance, proprioception, core fitness and lots of different aspects of fitness that I hadn't really explored. Now the military has shifted and actually focuses a lot more on these things now. But when I was a, you know, a very young soldier in training. There was no focus on these things. So I kind of got a bit of a bug for, OK, what are the aspects of fitness having been involved in? And whilst my return to Afghanistan post injury, I was actually bumped up with a guy who was heavily into this and helped me a lot there because we had conversations and it very much was It started off and builds perfectly into the story we're creating. it was, you know, he had the body and the fitness to go with it. And I was a lot chubbier than I had been pre-injury, a lot slower, things hurt. Retrieving items from the floor was a task. Various of the differences that we had, me and him. And, you know, a very flippant comment of, I wish I could do those things and look like you. And then it was like, why don't you then? I was like, hmm, interested. These are things I can control then. And then when you realize that actually you can control the things you put into your body, the things you expect your body to be able to do, how you can push past things when they're difficult to do with your physical fitness. And then, you know, it's just another example of actually that mindset works in other aspects of your life. And it absolutely did. to the point where I went from that chubby guy returning to Afghanistan to stepping onto a stage and doing men's physique competitions. And that was literally because you can control every single part of that. A bit of genetics thrown in, which I didn't have, so I didn't win anything. But actually, to get yourself to something you can be proud of, it's all within your control.

Charlie: Yeah, I mean I suppose in the time I knew knew you you demonstrated unbelievable discipline and it it was as almost as if you were seeking out to do hard things and challenge yourself. do you think it gives you a sense of purpose? I mean, we are more and more increasingly living in a world of convenience, companies sell convenience, people seek comfort more and more. what what i in your view, the approach of setting yourself hard challenges which are not comfortable, what do you think that gives you?

Vince Hockley: Yeah, there is a drive you get. think I can only speak personally really, but there is a lot for me around self-affirmation as well. think it's where you have, it differs a lot from the military life because predominantly the military life is... It's all cookie cutter. Like if you get a group of people around the same age from an infant unit, they will have the exact same experiences, they've done the exact same courses, been on the exact same deployments, you will get a very similar thing. Some obviously counts differences, but if you just looked kind of on paper that you're going to see almost the same person. And I think having achieved and I do call it an achievement, but the things I did post injury and how I got myself back to how I did and then how I then pushed on past that and achieved other things. Especially in the time frame that I did it was actually the first time where I was like, this is actually all me. I could, because I was owning what I was doing to make the improvements, to make the adjustments, to get where I wanted to be. I was doing a lot of that by myself. I was very supportive and I'm grateful to the support I got. But the day to day achieving of it was very much a solo task. So was the affirmation. That was all mine. So when I was told, you're probably not going to be able to weight bear again and then fast forward a year and I'm picking up 200 kilogram deadlifts. weighing only 85 kilograms, then I'm like, that's because I did all those things leading up to this point and now I've achieved the thing. So I took the affirmation myself and I think that can be addictive. So I think I think it is a drive to see what else you can do. Absolutely. But for me personally, it's also like, what can I do that I can say to myself, you've achieved another thing? And I think if you get older, that some of those things come around less often. So you have to go seeking yourself because you've achieved everything you need from an educational perspective. You've had lots of job experiences where you've achieved different milestones. Those things have kind of been and they've gone and they're coming around less often. So yeah, I think the want to seek out those things where you can give yourself a good pat on the back. is good for your mental well-being as well.

Charlie: Vince, to to say it was an achievement I think is probably the understatement of the century. I mean it's absolutely extraordinary and I hope we can get a a photo of you on stage somehow on this on this podcast, because it's absolutely phenomenal, it really, really is. If you could talk to eighteen year old Vince now, what advice do you think you would give him? knowing what he was about to to go through.

Vince Hockley: I would probably say, I would probably start that journey earlier of just learning those things about yourself. think self-awareness is a huge commodity and I think it's something particularly in the business world that I've seen as well. We're just, yeah, just having that. that self-awareness of what you could achieve and what's holding you back and just that ability to step back and think about that rather than just living in the moment and just kind of rolling with the punches and it will be what it will be approach. Because I think through the journeys that I've had, particularly, you know, with injury and post-injury rehabilitation, a lot of those things I think were in me. I that I had those tools and it just sometimes takes something to make you start picking the tools up and using them and actually just the awareness of what I could have achieved a bit earlier. Could have seen me take some different paths. That isn't to say there's any regrets about the paths that I took. I've lived a great life and loved every bit of it up to this point. But yeah, just having that awareness of, know, you could probably push yourself a bit harder at times and achieve things a bit quicker and a bit fuller.

Charlie: I suppose a a a lot of people kind of have preconceived limits of of what they think they're what they th where they think the ceiling is. Is that is that what you're so it's kind of exploration of of your own mind, self awareness, then maybe that's not actually a limit and maybe you could reframe it to, you know, you shouldn't be constraining yourself. And we do that by exploring the mind, being aware of our thoughts, and I suppose challenging some of those thoughts and assumptions. Is that

Vince Hockley: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, I think like if you, if you'd look at, know, I try and think of a good example for you, but if you, if you, if you are running a business and then you have a request from a customer, you know, to provide a particular service or product, then you will have some kind of data for that, wouldn't you? You would be like, is it within the scope of the company?

Charlie: Mm. Mm.

Vince Hockley: Is it within the resources of the company? You know, what is the manning costs? Can we do it? You'll use lots of data to do it. We very rarely do that with ourselves. It's almost just an on the spot decision of, yeah, I probably won't be able to do that. But actually go and do it, get some data, go and try it.

Charlie: Mm.

Vince Hockley: I will never run the distances you run because I don't like driving them. I have experienced running to know that.

Charlie: Yeah.

Vince Hockley: If you've never ran, then maybe go for a run and then decide if you can run a marathon rather than thinking you just can't.

Charlie: Yeah. So the lesson is start doing hard things to challenge yourself. Build up that bank of evidence which tells you you can. And then when you know you can do that first bit, there's evidence to suggest you could do the next bit.

Vince Hockley: Yeah, exactly. And if you get to a ceiling, then you're OK. Well, that's as far as I can go with that. But at least I know that now. I haven't guessed that by not achieving any of these goals on the way. And then you just feel good for achieving the small steps. Maybe never get to the big goal.

Charlie: And Vince, finally, what advice would you give someone who feels like life has completely knocked them down and they can't necessarily see a way forward? And that could be in any aspect of life, but particularly drawing on your experiences where perhaps there were stages when you did feel like that.

Vince Hockley: I think the first thing I'll be thinking about is what stage of life people are at as well. For me, those injuries and the experiences that I had from them, at the time, they feel like they're smack bang in the middle of your career. But then I carried on and then built another... career or started to produce another career after. you know, everyone has plenty of time to go and achieve the things. It's not a race and actually it's more about achieving the goal than it is about being where you need to be right now. Also, think thinking back, there are a lot of similarities to how I approached my recovery, to how I approached difficulty with you know, joining the military in the first place. So, but that was a goal. You know, it's almost like although,

Charlie: Mm.

Vince Hockley: yes, it's, you know, there are huge differences. But if you take it back to its simplest form, I wasn't in a position to be a soldier, then I got myself in a position and became one. And I was doing that again, yes, with different circumstances. but actually just go back to the rawest form. I was doing those same things. I was doing the extra, you know, physical training that I could do. I was ensuring that I was spending my spare time looking at things that would help me, you know, instead of researching the marksuit principles like I did as a basic soldier, it was more, I was researching how muscles worked and how to stretch at home and things, but it's still the same mentality of let's just step back and go, okay, what do I need to know? What do need to know and be able to do next? And just go back to that point where you had a goal and you were striving to achieve it and you were taking those steps and get back to that place. Do that same thing again. Set yourself some goals. Think about what you need to do to achieve them. And then, you know, one slice of the cake at a time.

Charlie: Hm. And Vince is it sounds like that ties very neatly to control the controllables again. And that's the overarching

Vince Hockley: Yeah, exactly.

Charlie: overarching message.

Vince Hockley: Yeah, absolutely. Triple down on that. And I'll tell you why it's a great stress reducer as well. When it's a accountant coming knocking time, and that's what you do for a living or whether it's, you know, I've got that men's physique competition or, you know, I've got this operational tool, whatever it is, there's a whole load of things you should and could be doing and a whole load of things that will be what they are. and absolutely triple down on the ones that you can control.

Charlie: Vince, I'm sure many can see the parallels of how some of your mindset strategies that you used can be used in I suppose more regular daily life scenarios as as well as obviously incredibly challenging scenarios as well. it's been an absolute pleasure to have you on. You are a remarkable man, an incredibly inspiring. So a genuine, heartfelt thank you for coming on and sharing your story.

Vince Hockley: Just toilet