Jeremy Smith: Hey, what's up, everybody? Welcome back to the Making Disciples podcast. My name is Jeremy Smith, the lead pastor of a church called Crosspoint in Northwest Florida with us. Here we go, Vick You ready for it this time? I don't know if this is sustainable, by the way. I started something.

Making Disciples with Replicate: Hey church leader, I want to take just a moment and tell you about an exciting opportunity for you. Most churches have a passion for multiplication. They just don't know how to do it. Pastors have this disciple making burden, but their vision and strategy for it just aren't working. After 17 years and working with over 4,000 churches, our team has found many ways to help the church better make disciples. We call this our movement ready church.

Vick Green: I'm going for it. I mean, I don't know if it is either. I appreciate it though, but keep going. Go for it. What do we got?

Jeremy Smith: Yeah. I'm trying to come up with something to call Vick every week. If y'all want to send me an email, put it in the comments or something to help me come up with those. ⁓

Making Disciples with Replicate: process. It helps your church create a disciple-making culture, vision, and strategy that fits your unique context. It fits your church size, your community, your leadership style. If you want more information about our movement-ready church process, you can grab the book, Movement Ready Church, at any place that books are sold. Also, you can join us for any of our movement-ready trainings.

Vick Green: That's super dangerous. Hey, like what should we call Vick ? I've been called a lot of things that I don't want in the comments ⁓

Jeremy Smith: The indubitable. had to really work on how to say that the indubitable Vick Green, CEO of replicate. How you doing today?

Vick Green: ⁓ my god. I know what that means, but for our audience, what would that mean?

Jeremy Smith: I don't know. ⁓ I did look up the definition, but I don't have it here in front of me and I don't have it off the top. It just sounds good. And do a little. What it said, you know what it means. You tell us what it means. I thought you said you knew what it ⁓

Making Disciples with Replicate: We host one day trainings all across the country and we have a virtual on-demand course that you can go through as a team. So if you're ready to see multiplication take off at your church, just go ahead and grab the leader notes in this show and you'll see all the links to what I've mentioned and more. Now let's get back to the episode.

Vick Green: Great. There we go. It does. I appreciate that. I have no clue. I don't know. That's why. Like I said, this is not my forte, but I appreciate it. So.

Jeremy Smith: Okay. Next time I'll come with the definition as well. super glad to have your brother. ⁓ and we are talking about ministry miss. We started that in a previous episode, the five ministry miss. If you miss that, go back and check it out. It's super important. ⁓ I think we're all.

Vick Green: Very good. You stomp me on many of those, by the way, those myths last time I like when I went home thinking about multiple of those. It like, I definitely don't glow in the dark. I don't know what Jeremy was talking about.

Jeremy Smith: ⁓ You do. You're the light of Christ. Okay. You're the light of the world. So you stand out, Vick . Don't doubt yourself, but go back, watch that episode. Listen to that episode. ⁓ ministry ⁓ are really important. We all have them. We're all struggling with them. No church is done with Maybe in the future, we won't struggle with these ministry myths, but there'll be different ministry myths probably then.

Vick Green: There we go. I appreciate that.

Jeremy Smith: ⁓ but we want to dive deeper into what they are in that last episode, we talked about the engagement myth a little bit. ⁓ but we want to go deeper into, into what that is. So Vick , if you would share, share with us what the engagement myth and then kind of begin to unpack what we do with that.

Vick Green: Yeah, the engagement myth ⁓ is really the foundational one. It's the one that I most churches struggle with. It's the one that starts to creep. Like if you struggle with this one, every other one is going to kind of have a compounding effect on your culture. And so the engagement myth, shared last time, but just as a reminder, the way we stumbled across this myth was we were trying to figure out in our church who was, who's the most mature, like who's most successful, who's really like leading out in our church. And like when we looked at our engagement metrics, we started to look and what we realized was that the people that we thought would be at the top were not at the top. And we were even more surprised by the person who was at the top. The person who was at the top was Scotty. I shared this, Scotty was the most engaged, active person in our church. Every worship service, every small group, every volunteer team, the doors are open, Scotty is there. The problem was, Scotty introduces himself as, I'm Scotty. I'm an atheist. And it's just like in that moment, we're like, ⁓ my gosh, like how is Scotty there? But meanwhile, like at the same time we looked and we were like, well, where are our elders? Where are our leaders? And like, there were people who were making disciples in the workplace, been like foundational members of the church from day one. And they're like middle of the pack in our engagement scorecard. And we're like, huh. Why is that? And I think that's really what kind of unearthed this engagement myth. So the engagement myth is this, it's the belief that program activity equals personal transformation. Activity equals transformation. And what I think we began to realize, take Scotty and I'll use Big A. Big A was, that's what I call him, his name's Aaron, but Big A, like Big A was middle of the pack, yet he was a leader in our church. Scotty's an atheist, yet he's at the top. Well, big A was making disciples in his workplace and he's busy doing so much ministry out in the community that he's not able to be at the church for every program. And it was just like, we were getting so caught up in getting you active in our programming. think it's Tim Keller who says it this way. If you're not careful, our people can be so busy.

Jeremy Smith: Right. you

Vick Green: being a part of the ministries of the church that it misses the ministry of the church. You can be so busy in the ministries in the church that you aren't doing the ministry of the church. And I think that's some of those moments we had a wrong scorecard and we were using just activity as this metric for success and we're like, man, this is off. This isn't right.

Jeremy Smith: Yeah, that is like, think that hits most of us. Um, we, when you're, when you're just talking about the scorecard and what we're really looking at and after a weekend or at the end of the year, what are we reporting? What are we celebrating? That sort of stuff. That's, that's one of those conviction moments of like, is it, is what, where's the transformation or, or maybe even on what scale is the transformation? So We can have that conviction. can realize that. But I think where most of us, including myself, where we struggle, it's like, what do we do about that? How do we change this?

Vick Green: Yeah. Good question. Yeah, mean, I think so take this idea. I mean, the answer is you got to change your score scoreboard. Like we've got to get a better scoreboard. And I think we know that in internally, like, huh, I don't really know, like if measuring just program activities, the best scoreboard. But if you look how we measure success, it's usually, I mean, I've heard it a lot of different ways. the ABCs of measuring attendance buildings in cash. And so I think there's like a three B's. I think it's like budgets. Oh man, what a dang it. Okay. Budgets, bucks and butts, you know, like that's like the other one. Like I've heard a few, Robbie has all of these, you know, like this is like Robbie just spits them out. Like, I think those are these old ways of measuring success in the church. But another phrase that I think Robbie or somebody, don't know who says it.

Jeremy Smith: Yeah. ⁓ Okay.

Vick Green: but I'll use it. When God measures the health of his church, he doesn't count the people in on him, he weighs them. And so like, I think everybody knows that that's not the best scoreboard, but they don't really know how to get this other scoreboard. And so I think that's the piece here. Like we have to figure out how do we not just have this activity scoreboard, but how do we get a transformation scoreboard? And the thing is activity and transformation, they work together.

Jeremy Smith: Right.

Vick Green: there's a correlation, but they're not the same. And so the way that we think about it is think about baseball. So it's baseball season now, which like, to be honest, don't really like baseball, but I love LSU baseball. And so that's my like caveat. So love sitting on the back porch, love watching it. In baseball, think about if you changed the game and you measured hits instead of runs, how would that change the game?

Jeremy Smith: Okay.

Vick Green: like how would that change the winner? Like, yes, often the team that gets the most hits gets the most runs, but there's plenty of times where that's not the case. There's plenty of times where actually if you were to make the hits, what determines the winner that a total different winner would be chosen. But then also how different does the game get played? Like if that's why would I ever go for a home run or a double or a triple? Like I would just try to get to first base. I wouldn't try to do anything different.

Jeremy Smith: Right.

Vick Green: And so the idea is like when we're off just a little and activity is the new metric of success, it totally changes the game that our people are playing. And so this first idea here is just like, how do we get a transformation scoreboard? A big idea, your people will play where the scoreboard is the clearest. And so if activity is the only way you measure success, you will always reinforce the engagement myth. Your people will play and measure maturity and think it means to be a good follower Jesus, a good member at your church, if I just attend more programming.

Jeremy Smith: Yeah, they will do that. the baseball analogy is so good. How you said that if like, you know, it would change how we played the game if that's what we really good. But of course, that's not what the game is about. You know, like we all know that and they are correlated. That's why I love that analogy so much. You're right. They'll play in that way, but also they'll get dissatisfied, disillusioned and stop or leave or get stale or stagged. Not all of them.

Vick Green: Yeah. Yeah. Right. That's right.

Jeremy Smith: Cause, cause we got some of them that actually do take personal responsibility and figure it out and do it. That's what we found is like, we had disciple makers in our church almost in spite of ourselves. Because he was the scoreboard was, ⁓ all those programs. and I, there was an epiphany moment for me in, one of those years where we're growing like crazy and the next like.

Vick Green: Mm, that's right. Yeah.

Jeremy Smith: January or February or something. We're reporting on that in the worship services. And I was so excited. We grew by 500 people or whatever it was. It was something like that, you know, grew by this many people. And I was so excited to report it. And I remember afterwards, people, people were like, that kind of felt like we were like bragging, like people didn't like it. They weren't excited. Like I was about how much we grew because they're

Vick Green: Bye. Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Smith: they're looking for like, are you going to help me in my relationship with God, in my family, and reach the people around me? That's the shift there in changing the scoreboard, that personal transformation, not just like, I know this is part of another myth, not just collectively, what are we doing? They didn't love it. So we just like stopped reporting that stuff because

Vick Green: Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Smith: It wasn't what they wanted. And then when we actually began to do some of the stuff that we're talking about, they're like, finally.

Vick Green: Yeah, that's right. Well, I would I'd say that activity scoreboard, I think at best case, it's uninspiring. At worst case, I think it promotes a work based theology. Like, I think it nothing else. What you tell people is like, hey, I want you to go do this, this and this like to be to grow in Jesus. I want you to go attend worship. I want you to get in a small group. I want you to volunteer in a team. And like, I mean, we talked about this like that is not an inspiring invitation.

Jeremy Smith: That's good.

Vick Green: Hey, go and do this one thing, do the second thing, do this third thing. People don't join your church for a busier calendar. They join it to be a better people. So stop telling them what you want them to do and stop telling them who you want them to become.

Jeremy Smith: Yeah.

Vick Green: And that activity scoreboard, all it does is it just tells people what you want them to do. And hey, how well are you doing this thing? And are you active in the programming and are you busy? But that doesn't actually mean you're being transformed. And so we have to like, again, it's uninspiring at best. At worst, I think it's a work based theology that says what you do leads to maturity, opposed to man, who is God shaping me to become? And that's the shift we got to get beyond just activity into transformation.

Jeremy Smith: And that work-based theology, that's the mild version of it because what it really leads to is people getting burned out on the faith and leaving their faith. And that's one of the things that helps spark why we ultimately implemented, we call multiply groups, but D groups, discipleship groups, is that two guys who are plateaued in their faith,

Vick Green: That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Smith: And they kept coming to me and I kept plugging them into programs and nothing was working. They're like, we're still there. We're still stuck. And I'm like, what do I do? You know, about, we, you know, if you're not working our programs, I don't know how to help you in your relationship with God. And it wasn't that simple, but that's kind of what it broke down to. it lead, most people don't keep coming back. They just leave or get disillusioned. That's that,

Vick Green: Sorry. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Smith: What is it? The reveal study from Willow Creek all those years ago that found that the most dissatisfied people in their church were the people who've been there the longest.

Vick Green: Right. Yeah, absolutely. And so like you can only run that for so long and people just eventually like say burn out. And so like, think, you know, I think that idea of just activity, what's funny about it is I think pastors know it's not the right scoreboard. Like there's a, mean, and I'm sure you can share this too. Like there's, you know, it's not what's best, but it is what's easiest to measure.

Jeremy Smith: Mm-hmm.

Vick Green: And I think we settle for what's easiest. think it's actually, I have it up here, Lifeway just did a survey and 71 % of pastors believe that there are ways to measure discipleship. Hey, you can measure the heart, you can measure transformation, you can measure growth. Like they believe there's some version of that out there. Only 30 % say they have any method at all. Only 5 % of them say that they actually like their methods, strongly believe they're working. And I think that's this huge divide. know there's something, I think what we've, we settle for measuring what's easiest opposed to what's best. I think with things like budgets and buildings and people like you can measure those perfectly. I can know the exact dollar and cent. I can know the exact building and the exact budget. I can't know the heart, only the Lord knows the heart. And I think because we can't measure it perfectly, we give up on trying to measure it precisely. Like, yeah, you can't know it perfect. Yeah, there's always going to be margin there. But we can get a lot closer to measuring success in ministry than how we're currently settling for just activity.

Jeremy Smith: You know, thinking about that number, what'd you say, 70 % believe that there's a way to measure?

Vick Green: 71 believe that there's ways to measure discipleship in the congregation.

Jeremy Smith: I don't even think I would have been in that 71 % before. Yeah. Cause I think I fell into like the, um, how can you measure someone's heart? why, why even try? Like we can't even know it. So why even try it? So here's the only things we can measure, but you're right. You know, that's like, that's not the end goal. It feels like shallow.

Vick Green: Really? Really? Yeah. Yeah, okay, let's go there. I would love to go there. like, because in my mind, like when I hear people do that, to me, this is like maybe being a little more into it. I'm like, it feels like a smoke screen a little bit. Like, it feels like a way of being able to like, well, we can't know so we don't have to and a little bit of being off the hook.

Jeremy Smith: That's what it is. Yeah. Yeah. That's what, like when the guy asked me what kind of disciples you're making and I'm like, I don't know. And so here's what I do know. And like, you can't know that, you know, like, what are you even talking about? Here's what I do know. How many people are in worship services, life groups, serving, giving. And so that was my answer back to them.

Vick Green: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, well you can't know so I'm okay, you know. Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Smith: But ⁓ it felt hollow at the time, but I'm like, you can't measure that. How can you know? What is it? We're going to give them a Bible test or ⁓ something like that. And we actually did talk about in that conversation, like, do they know the gospel? Have they ever made another disciple? But even that isn't the who we're becoming fully. It's still some more sort of what are they doing, competency sort of things.

Vick Green: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's it just feels so much of a like, and I can I think there's good intent of like, man, I can't know the heart like that's got like, I don't want to make it legalistic. I don't want to make it rules based. I think there's there's good intentions that can be behind that. But I think sometimes because we can't do that perfectly, we just settle for like, well, what can we measure? And I'm like, yeah, but how's that working out for you? Like, how's that working out in determining like Are we a healthy church? Are people a healthy people? The other thing too, we just said about the uninspiring invitation. If all you talk about is their attendance in your church, all it is is, hey, this is what we want from you. Come and be a part of it. And it's never the opportunity to say, you know, here's the life change this is going to have in your life. Here's what I want to see different about you as a dad, as a husband, as a friend, as a coworker. And it's just like settling in the engagement myth for what's the easiest to measure.

Jeremy Smith: Yeah.

Vick Green: Like we're so, like we're not even hitting the target, at least with a transformation scoreboard. Maybe we don't know the heart, like we're at least on the target somewhere.

Jeremy Smith: That right there is the biggest thing that I tell pastors when we're talking about this. And it was one of the biggest revelations to me. It's like, we always talk about holiness and holiness in terms of, you know, I think there's a tradition of like holiness is what you do and, you know, and don't do that sort of the legalistic way of viewing it. ⁓

Vick Green: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Jeremy Smith: But we always talk about holiness in the Wesleyan world in terms of who you're becoming in the image of Christ. And that was one of the things I loved about the Wesleyan world that I'm in is that was kind of the way it got talked about. But ⁓ never had sort of a measure for that. And that whole we don't want something from you. We want something for you. Talking to our church as we rolled out a brand new mission and vision and work through some of this and define the kind of disciples we're trying to make, which I think is the scoreboard we're talking about here. That personal spiritual transformation, are you actually becoming more like the disciple Jesus has created you to be or called us to make in our church and defining that? ⁓ What we're now able to tell people in our mission and our what we call dream disciple with replicate and reawakening what we, the kind of disciples we're trying to create and even with our vision now.

Vick Green: That's right.

Jeremy Smith: I'm able to say with all of that is none of it is about growing the kingdom of cross point because that's what we were getting accused of all the time. Y'all just trying to grow a bigger church. Y'all just trying to get more people following you or you know, whatever. ⁓ none of that was ever our intent. But looking back, I'm like, I see how they came to that. Right. Yeah. So, but now what we're truly able to say is like none of our goals, ultimately, none of our motivation.

Vick Green: Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah, yeah, you can see that. Yeah.

Jeremy Smith: None of what we're the why of why we're trying to do all of this is about the kingdom of cross point or anything that benefits Jeremy Smith or whoever else. It's what we want for you and who you're becoming in the image of Christ and for others as they know getting to know Jesus and who they're becoming and naming their unique role and helping other churches with that. So it's been transformational to be able to say that and actually have like a way of of helping people do that.

Vick Green: scale.

Jeremy Smith: ⁓

Vick Green: ⁓ let's go there. Cause like getting it getting real concrete. Let's use y'all. Y'all had just an activity scoreboard. ⁓ and again, if I remember it was like, what was like come as you are, forgive me. Come in growth curve. Yeah. Here's how you know, if you have an activity scoreboard, it's four verbs. Hey, do this, do this, do this, do this. Like that's how you know that. And so like,

Jeremy Smith: Come, meet, grow, serve. Come as you are, meet Christ, grow in your faith, find a place to serve. You

Vick Green: The activity scoreboard goes from verb based to noun based because nouns speak to transformation. And so, and you guys went from, do these things in our church to be this type of person. So share what your new transformation scoreboard, we call this your dream disciple. It's the biggest way you get people to think from, to bust the engagement myth. So what is that for you guys?

Jeremy Smith: We want to help people become a faithful follower, helpful neighbor, deployed disciple. We live in a military community, so deployed really plays there. Deployed disciple and kingdom builder. Faithful follower. Yeah. Faithful followers. We have a little Crosspoint Joe, Crosspoint Jill, you know, it's a little stick figure that we make. Faithful follower is the heart. If we don't have our heart right. All four of them we talk about are important, but you start with faithful. We don't have the heart right.

Vick Green: Yeah. Love it. Tell us more about it. Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Smith: all the other activity after this and who are, it doesn't matter. So faithful followers, the heart, helpful neighbors, the hands, you know, just do we know the people around us and are we meeting their needs? That's two of the questions we ask. Like, do you know the names and needs of those around you and what are you going to do this week to help meet them? Deployed disciples, the feet, are you living into, walking into your unique role, your unique calling in the mission of God, actually being deployed in the unique way God has called you to do that, which our military people pick up on right away.

Vick Green: Good. Yeah. Yeah.

Jeremy Smith: Everybody's got a unique role in their mission, in that mission. And then Kingdom Builder is the glasses. now we have Kingdom lenses on that affects everything else that we see, how we live, how we think about the resources he's blessed us with and leave in a legacy. And so we're able to talk about that over and over. We name series, Faithful Follower, Helpful Neighbor. Every stewardship series we do now is called Kingdom Builder. And we're just reinforcing that.

Vick Green: Mm.

Jeremy Smith: And we got our kids ministry. OK. They've picked up on it more than anybody else. Actually, I will tell you this, trying to implement in kids and students all of this is one of the slowest and hardest parts of implementing a disciple making culture. But our kids ministry, I don't know if you can see this fully, has this little magnet that they use. It's called the disciples prayer. There you go.

Vick Green: ⁓ this is my favorite. ⁓ so good. Go for it. Go. Yeah, it's tricky.

Jeremy Smith: And it just says, Dear God, and they do it in their services as we go throughout our week, please give us the heart of a faithful follower, the hands of a helpful neighbor, the feet of a deployed disciple, and the eyes of a kingdom builder. In Jesus name we pray, amen. It's actually a part of the infant baptisms that we do. If you're doing child dedications, whatever, this is the prayer we pray. We actually even have a song, like a VBS kids song that talks about these roles. so just early on trying to get that in their minds.

Vick Green: I think too, the cool thing, I remember right, too, y'all go even beyond just the programming. That's that blessing card for the parent as well, is just like ⁓ how they go like at night, like at least that's what I do too with my daughter, Lena. We have a blessing and like the idea, okay, let's look, what is like the idea of, give my daughter a heart of a faithful follower, the hands of a helpful neighbor, the feet of a deployed disciple and the eyes of a kingdom builder. In Jesus name, amen. Like, man, the power, if you could get your entire congregation doing that with their kids over bedtime, like the power of just what that communicates to the kid, what the responsibility that that feels for parents, like, man, what a massive shift.

Jeremy Smith: Yeah, yeah, it is. It's again, it goes to here's who we want you to. This was the big thing for me. How do you know if you're making a disciple? If you don't even have a definition of a disciple and it's not just what they do. That's where we first went and we kind of stalled out in that. was like a disciple loves and grows and obeys and you know, that sort of thing. So.

Vick Green: Hmm. Hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I would even take it another step further. Like one, if you don't have a definition of a disciple, I mean, let's get a definition of a disciple, which that's like such a, every time I say it, people are like, oh yeah, that makes total sense. What I think maybe people don't, I think a definition of a disciple is a good starting line, but it's a poor finish line. Because a definite, the reason people don't, the reason that people...

Jeremy Smith: you

Vick Green: don't go and make, it's not cause it's like intellect, it's not an intellectual barrier, but often a definition aims at the head. But really what we're trying to do is to capture the heart. And how do you commune, what I let you said that deployed disciple. I remember, so truth be told of the four, me personally, from somebody who's not a military community, that's the one that I'm like, meh, okay. Like, but the team likes it. you go and reveal that to your people, that was the number one that they liked back. And that's the one they resonated with. They're like, okay, yeah, let's go. And I'm like, Jeremy knew his people. And so there's, you know, and I think there's a way in which we can communicate it that captures the hearts of our people and changes the paradigms of our people to change and them say, ⁓ okay, that's the life you want me to live.

Jeremy Smith: you Mm.

Vick Green: And I think being able to say it in a way that resonates and capture our people's hearts and motivates them to move forward, that's a huge piece of it that I feel like you guys have done well.

Jeremy Smith: It is still hard, will say, and we do have ways to do this, but I'd love to hear your perspective on it too, of measuring that. That is still a little bit of a tension.

Vick Green: Sure, yeah, and I do think, I think let's name, it's not gonna be the same as how you measure activity. Like it's not, like because we don't know the heart, because there isn't, it is a little more abstract. But again, it's, okay, maybe we're not gonna be able to measure it perfectly, but we can still measure it precisely. Like we can still get a gauge of it. And so ⁓ every church, like we teach them three different assessments. We teach them how to do a group's assessment or a congregational assessment. So like you could do that in sermon series. Like I'm sure you guys have done, like I know some, ⁓ man, New Beginnings does this really well. the beginning of the year, they preach it and then they say, hey, which of these roles are you doing best in and need to most grow in? And whichever one you say in the upcoming year you need to most grow in, if you click that role, they have a personalized drip campaign that it's in place. ready to give them resources and connect them with next steps around that role. But now that feels totally different than, it's the start of the year, we need volunteers. It's like, said, hey, you said you want to become this type of person. Here's some opportunities we'd love to help. So like groups assessments like that, you have ⁓ self assessments that we build a lot of times with people of like, how do you help an individual assess their own life? How do you give them questions of reflection?

Jeremy Smith: Ha ha.

Vick Green: How do you give individuals where like if I'm meeting one-on-one with somebody, if I'm starting a D group, how could I do this? And so think more and more building those tools of assessments and survey. I know there's a church we have, want to see, talk about changing the scoreboard. They have like, I forget the total number, let's say it's 400 steps a year, 400 faith steps each year. Well, their dream disciple is a faith acrostic. And so it's all around not steps in programming, but steps in transformation. any other final things before we close around just how you guys are using the dream cycle, changing your scoreboard.

Jeremy Smith: Gotcha. Hmm. We use it in our multiply groups, take an assessment at the beginning, middle and end, little bullseye scoreboard that they do based on the questions and statements that we have for each one of those dream disciple, faithful follower, helpful neighbor, deployed disciple, kingdom builder, just like you said, which one you wanna grow in and how can we hold you accountable in that. We have done them from the stage as well and helping people kind of identify that. I love what New Beginnings is doing, that's amazing. And then. Part of what we also measure is not just the dream disciple, it's the 2035 dream. It's the vision. You know, that's all about disciple making and helping people become as well and plug into this. So that's another, I think, disciple making measure that changes the scoreboard to how other people are moving forward in their faith and other churches as well. So yeah, again, start somewhere, just start somewhere.

Vick Green: Yeah. Let's go. Bye bye. That's right. And that would be my encouragement. Do you have a transformation scorecard? Like, do you have a score that is focused on personal transformation? And, so if not, I'd encourage you'll see in the show notes, we have our dream disciple resource. It's a free resource. You'll see Jeremy, you'll see others, you'll see some of those assessments that we just talked about. Download it free resource. Let that be a start in place for you. Also, we, come in, we do dream disciple accelerators all the time. One day. come in, let's get a clear scoreboard. It's usually the foundational piece needed for the disciple making movement. If we can't change, our people will play where the scoreboard's the clearest. So until we change that scoreboard, we're not gonna be able to know, are we winning or are we not? What game are we playing? So as always, get all that in the show notes and more, and then subscribe and share if it's been helpful. We'll pick up in a couple of more weeks with the next one, the Expertise Myth. But next episode, We're back with you and a good friend of ours, Mr. Jagger Eastman to tell the Crosspoint story. So excited to share that and we'll be with you next week.

Jeremy Smith: That's right.