speaker-0: My name is Jennifer Smith Parker, Director of Insights at Biospace, and you're listening to Denatured. In this episode, I speak with Christina Take, managing partner at VBio Ventures, and Maria Turusnik, founding partner at Curie Capital. We explore why the Benelux region remains scientifically strong, but investment fragmented, and what it will take to turn it into a more unified biotech investment corridor. Ladies, thank you so much for joining this episode of Did Natured. It's a pleasure. If you can introduce yourselves, Christina, why don't we start with you?

speaker-1: Hi Jennifer, well it's a pleasure to be with you. I'm Christina Tucker, one of the co founders and managing partners of FIBI Ventures, an early stage venture fund. Myself have a background in science, but I left science after my PhD and now I'm in the investment ⁓ ecosystem for the last twenty six years. So happy to be here.

speaker-0: Fuck my dad?

speaker-2: Hi, thanks for ⁓ inviting me for shedding some light on the European ⁓ investment specifics of the individual countries. ⁓ my name is Marietta Rusing. I'm a managing partner at Curry Capital. ⁓ I'm I founded the fund seven and a half years ago. ⁓ before that I was also investment manager at another biotech fund, and ⁓ before that in managerial roles. Mostly on the commercial side in the biotech companies.

speaker-0: Well, thank you so much for the introduction. The Benelux region is often described as scientifically strong, but having various different sources of investment. So with this fragmentation playing out, what does it mean for early stage founders trying to raise their first institutional round?

speaker-2: Having worked at a regional fund in the Netherlands, I can indeed confirm that it has been fragmented in like decentralized. At this time actually they are trying to improve that and and have all the funds work together, ⁓ have it less ⁓ fragmented, but that is not the problem. It's very difficult for founders to raise a seat round and ⁓ not only because of the public funds and the regional funds. ⁓ with their specific territories, but more because there's a lack of of private early stage fund at this time.

speaker-1: I think what you said it's it puts some more well challenges for the founders to really choose their first investor wisely. I think that's that's important that the first investor, although they might have regional preference or their regional objective, well if you look at investors that have this regional focus still within the global reach, that's very important to sort of build that starting point of your company. And something like FIBI will try to do and we're quite well, successful in doing so, although early stage. Syndication from the day one, where we're different to the US, is essential. So building your syndicate with that investors that are able to take the company further, it's important. So more challenge for the founders looking for the right pot of

speaker-0: Yeah, that's interesting. So in the sense of looking for the that right pot of money, is there even there, is there a select pot of money or is there a limited first pot of money that they could have or or not so much?

speaker-1: Well, early stage funding is scarce. I think we all agree. Well they're not that many. So it's important to build that relationship and find that investor who is active in a market, able to invest into your geographic region and having having that regional reach out a regional network. I think once you have that, I think you can as a founder and as an early syndicate, you can pull in other investors as well. So is it limited Yes, that where the challenge is in Europe? Well, it's probably one of the challenges. But I would even dare to go early. I think another challenge is getting academic science out of the academic institutions at this to a stage where the early stage funds can invest. I think they're all willing to invest, but ha looking at the timelines and looking at the years it takes until to in value inflection point, that's a challenge where we all in Europe need to see. what elements do we need to have in the ecosystem in order to keep that chain as a continuum and getting these early stage innovations out of academic. But that's maybe our view looking to Marietta where you can jump in.

speaker-2: Yeah, if you look at we are an early stage investor and in our due diligence process we often talk to the later stage investors to make sure that there is a match with their expectations. Although they you know it would be a soft buy in because clearly they're not in the development stage that they would invest in. But at least if we can de risk those things ⁓ like new animal studies and ⁓ improving the preclinical package, that then we know that this is indeed an area w that they would invest in. But maybe the regional some of the regional funds ⁓ should also be working like this if they have the right network around them. And also speaking to pharma. I mean it's maybe even further, but w this is a closed network. So you can easily check with them, even though it's a soft buy in, but you know their appetite.

speaker-0: You had mentioned just now, Christina, I think a good point of moving the science out of the university. So you both work closely with tech transfer offices. So what's the biggest bottleneck you still see in spin out creation? And is there a blueprint that Benelux universities should adopt to make year one company formation less painful?

speaker-1: ⁓ well, often people say it's the negotiation, it's the IP, which I don't think per se it is. What we see, at least in on the Belgian side, is that the universities, including the VIB, they now have decades of experience. And sometimes you might agree or you might disagree, but at least there is this notion what does it take and how much worth is the innovation that when we talk to the TTOs, most of them are really realistic. I think what the bottleneck is is that They need to do everything at the same time, meaning they need to get the spin out, get the management team, get the funding, everything at the same time. And that means they don't have the means and the financial opportunity to de risk early on in order to make them ready to have all these conversations. So that's maybe what we see if we had more other environments where these projects can be matured, not in the academic setting, but also not yet in a fund. That can help the the ecosystem in our view. So it's the sequence of events you need to de risk first the project and the biology before you'd be able to attract the the larger funds.

speaker-0: Yeah, that does make sense. ⁓ I'm curious too, and we're talking about that the risking aspect. I'm wondering how that's also parlays into the cluster effect that you may have within particular countries, like Belgium's cluster effect, where you Gent, Leuven, you mentioned VIV as an example. And that seems like a great model for collaboration that you can have. So what are the specific ingredients that make that cluster work? And can the Netherlands or Luxembourg realistically replicate?

speaker-1: Well, Belgium cluster has it has the role models. So the the the examples that you can generate companies out of academic science, some of them more successful than others. Well, when you look at the past, well, you're Apple's Genix, but also looking broader, you have the Unicure and you have other companies. So showing that it can be done is one part. But also these companies create industry educated people. that then when the company grows can flow back into the ecosystem and maybe take up the helmet of a of of another small biotech company. So that's one of the aspects where clusters become very important. It's not only the science, it's not only capital, it's the entirety of where human capital can evolve. And I think looking at Argenics at least, we see people that leave the company of Argenics because company is getting big, but they have this eagerness to start new things and We as a fund can make use of them, getting them in our early stage matter. So one of the aspects of a cluster, we're at least looking at Luxembourg, it might be very difficult.

speaker-2: Actually Jennifer the VIB model has been implemented or it's it's indeed popular in the Netherlands and was used as the blueprint for Oncode Institute and now also Biotech Booster.

speaker-0: I think you make a good point about the cycle of talent, ⁓ how important that is within a cluster, because I heard that very much in my last episode on the Nordics and how that really stimulates or fuels that environment. And I mean, having that, let's say in Belgium, so is there is it not as much in the Netherlands or in Luxembourg of of having kind of that cycle of talent?

speaker-1: For Luxembourg I can be quite straightforward because as there isn't that science base and there isn't yet the biotech companies, the role models, sort of the the beaconheads, there is no recycling of talent. I think regions should focus on where they're good at where they have the added value in the entire ecosystem. And if it's not the science or the diversity of research that brings that companies, you need to look for something else where you can accelerate or complement the ecosystem. Because building up that relationship takes decades in order to have designs, companies, growing companies being big enough to spill over human talent. So that's nothing you can make that policies.

speaker-2: Yeah. And I think probably successful entrepreneurs would take on opportunities within the whole of Europe. They don't necessarily stay in their own country, big or small.

speaker-0: Yeah, that's that's a really good point. Gravitating to other areas too. So V Bio and Curie Capital both operate early in the pipeline, but with different fund sizes and mandates. So how do you decide which scientific ideas fit a venture model and which ones simply can't be financed through traditional VC?

speaker-1: I don't I don't but do I get to jump in. So for us it's it's probably less a matter of different funds, different with the news, but it's really more like does a project can show a value inflection point within the time frame you need, within the twelve, eighteen months from the start, in order to well get to the next stage, you need to de risk and you need to have a path to de risking. And some projects lean itself because if you look at it, you know that within well It always takes longer and takes more money, but within a certain period of time you will have the next step. We also see platform companies, we see very interesting opportunities, but just that don't have that measurable de-risking step in the meantime. And that's something for us, although it might be interesting, it doesn't fit the mentor model. So it's more depending on can you define a plan that re-risk along the line, which at the end you have a market that pays for that de-risking.

speaker-2: Yeah. And a seasoned team behind it. I mean they don't n necessarily all need to be seasoned, but at least a few key positions. So we invest in the broader scope of life sciences, so also medical devices and then for those products it's eminent to be able to sell it and show ⁓ the first revenues ⁓ before it's could be of interest to a strategic. So if there's no people with sales background, ⁓ behind it then ⁓ that's also ⁓ if it's purely academic then it's also very difficult.

speaker-1: Yeah. And Marietta, isn't it also a question when to get these expertise on board? Because when we look at things that are super early, I think the predominant ⁓ aspect is de-risking science, getting it further. And the question is when do you need the people to take it further? And I'm totally with you at some point in time you need to get out of your ivory ivory tower and to to show the world what your what your invention is and what it can can change. It's something this sticking an egg where

speaker-2: You are I mean that would not be ⁓ something to decline on ⁓ right away, but it it's all about having objectives to to come to this value inflection and for those type of companies that is ⁓ obviously ⁓ a critical amount of revenue. And ⁓ yeah, if you have only academics that will be very difficult. So we s we would invest from ⁓ let's say C E mark FDA approval type of ⁓ product.

speaker-1: Yeah. And and that's fast in the therapeutic area much more earlier. So we are really investing into targets that have been identified in in in the academic setting which need to be validated more. And that's why I'm talking the validation. Maybe that's something for a yeah. Incubator, where then once you have you are in the phase of testing the hypothesis, not developing the hypothesis. I think then it makes sense to to look for the more expensive measurement.

speaker-0: When we had spoken before, I learned quite a bit, and I thought it was quite interesting about hearing that the cross-border collaboration at Benelux is strong scientifically, but there's still hindrance by language, even regional funding rules, government-driven capital flow. I think maybe if we could just dig into that a bit more, because as someone not in the region, if I find it really interesting. So regional funding rules, let's let us language I kind of understand a little bit, but the the regional funding rules, what is that about? Is it more that one region can't basically invest in another region and is simple as that.

speaker-2: Yeah. Well I I've been working for a regional investor, so they have more or less an interest to increase the employment of the region and to strengthen the economic interest areas like biotech ⁓ in the region. So that is of interest to them. But I guess more and more they become more overarching thinking on a national level. So I I think and the language, I don't know if you mean literally language like French and and Flemish or Dutch. But I it'll or do you mean biotech language and commercial language? But I think

speaker-0: Yeah, I mean actual language. I mean that's the point. I think one of the interesting discussions I had with you I maybe

speaker-2: ⁓ well. I was in France ⁓ past two weeks, try to use the French that I have and everyone spoke English to me because, you know, they hear you have a difficulty with your French or ⁓ so I I don't think that is a difficulty anymore.

speaker-1: with you. I think the real language, all documentation will be in English. I think that's for sure. And if there is well, at least in Belgium we have some obligations to do a few corporate documents in language or it does. But there's always a translation in English. So I think the basic language is English. So that I wouldn't see that as a as a challenge. What I hear you say and what what you're referring to is probably some investment obligations that the governmental funds say, well we you only can invest into headquarters located in my area. That you still have. I think then and it it probably won't go away 'cause it's it's taxpayers' money. So I think we all wish it would be more global and it would be more, well, region based, taking the banner looks as one region or just broadening I think it won't go away, but we need to find ways to deal with it to make sure that the companies are located in the areas that fits them best. So we had companies They were to develop ⁓ antibodies. We said, look, you can sit somewhere else where there's no expertise that come together because there's the ecosystem, there's the cluster, and then you'll find I think the the capital that goes along with it. So it should be company and project centric. And also hopefully going forward the regional investment authority, they also think along with it, make it happen, because they won't be able to stop a sale in or a nice exit from a company into a US company because of their regional needs. But it needs to be some I think negotiation and massaging.

speaker-2: And luckily in Netherlands ⁓ now also Ne Investanel has also committed to the nationwide agenda to further strengthen the biotech ⁓ ecosystem. So and also with this biotech booster program, I think they are adhering to the policy of the government to to strengthen this. And so it's more similar to other European countries like ⁓ Germany with a high tech grunderfund and ⁓ British Business Bank in the UK and the BPI in France investing now so much in biotech. So in that sense I think the it's also adhering to the EU biotech act, of course. And I think the countries are there following up on this policy. So that's a clear movement.

speaker-0: So in the sense of the practical steps for that integration, it sounds with what you're saying, Christina, to to sum that up, we could have going to or moving to the clusters here. And it also sounds from what you're saying, Marietta, that you having more openness now towards maybe more of a pan, more of a pan European or maybe pan, maybe it could be in this case Benelux.

speaker-2: viewpoints. The n the nations are following the EU strategy. So I guess also in Netherlands it will be more like from coming from InvestorN than from also from the regional funds, but in collaboration. So it will be less of a hurdle or less ⁓ fragmentated as you say. Okay.

speaker-0: Okay. Well on that note, thank you so much, Christina Marietta, for joining this episode of Denatured. It's been a pleasure discussing Benelux. And if you'd like to listen to more episodes of Denatured, please turn to biospace dot com and feel free to send me a pitch at jennifer.smith hyphenparker at biospace dot com. Thank you very much.