Future Of Figure Skating: Hello and welcome back to the Future of Figure Skating. I'm your host, Anna Kellar and my guest today is Eric Radford. Eric is the 2018 Olympic bronze medalist in pairs and gold medalist in the team event. He's also a two-time world champion. In 2019, Eric was elected as the singles and pairs representative for the ISU's Athletes Commission. In 2022, he was elected chair of the commission and then served for three years on the ISU council. Thanks again to Eric for joining me. You can find the transcript and links to the things we talked about in the show notes and description. You can follow Eric on Instagram at ericradford85, and you can reach me with comments or suggestions email at futurefspodcast at gmail.com or instagram at futurefspodcast. You can also support the podcast by making a one-time or recurring contribution ⁓ ko-fi.com. ⁓ Eric, welcome to the podcast. Thanks so much for coming on to talk a little bit about the athlete's commission.

Eric Radford: Thank you so much for having me.

Future Of Figure Skating: Before we jump into that, I would just love to know a little bit about what you've been doing ⁓ over the last four years. How are you spending your time now that we're not seeing you in competitions as much?

Eric Radford: think that I'm still in one giant sort of transition phase out of competition. ⁓ In some ways, I feel like ⁓ kind of know more than ever what my calling is. And in other ways, I'm still figuring out exactly which direction my life is going ⁓ where I'm going to settle in terms of exactly what I'm going to be doing. But ⁓ been ⁓ ⁓ been ⁓ choreography, I've been composing. ⁓

Future Of Figure Skating: As he finishes his second term on the Athletes Commission, Eric joined me to talk about how skaters can use their voices to impact decision making, as well as the progress made and the long way to go to improving communication and understanding between the ISU and the athletes. Remember to subscribe to the Future of Figure Skating on YouTube and wherever you listen to podcasts, like this episode, and share it with your friends.

Eric Radford: music ⁓ in my positions at the ISU. ⁓ had done the TV show Dancing on Ice in the UK. I did Torvill and Dean's Farewell Tour, which was absolutely incredible. ⁓ I moved to London for a year and then things fell apart and then I moved back to Montreal. So it's really been, it's been a lot in four years now that I, as I'm saying it right now, it's been a lot. But it's been very exciting. And ⁓ in all honesty, ⁓ you know, I'm 41 now and I'm really, I'm really living life. And ⁓ as much as I sometimes feel like I would like to have like sort of landed and put roots in the ground. I'm just enjoying being up in the air at the moment.

Future Of Figure Skating: That's really cool though, that you're allowing yourself explore all of those different ⁓ potential avenues. It always seems like for, you know, some people retire and go immediately into coaching or they have an immediate plan, but it seems much more common that, you know, it takes a little while to make that adjustment out of ⁓ being a high performance athlete.

Eric Radford: Yeah, and I remember giving myself that advice when I got to the end ⁓ competitive career in that last year with Vanessa of, don't rush into something right away. Like, ⁓ first time in my life, I was finally going to have some time to explore. ⁓ I wanted to make sure that I did that. And ⁓ definitely doing that. ⁓

Future Of Figure Skating: That's great. So for the last four years, you've been the pairs representative for the ISU athletes commission, and then representing the athletes commission on the ISU council. And I believe that you were part of this first group with the formation of the athletes commission. So can you talk a little bit about you were interested in this and sort of stepping forward in the first place?

Eric Radford: been ⁓ on ⁓ commission now seven because this is my second term. And the commission actually started three before my first ⁓ And athletes commissions were not ⁓ commonplace in all sports.

Future Of Figure Skating: ⁓ wow, okay.

Eric Radford: that would be 10 years now ⁓ which is a time but not that long of a time if you think about that for so long decisions were being made about the very foundations of our sport and nobody was talking to the athletes. Meanwhile, we're the ones were, you know, working day in and day out and these decisions are affecting us and it seems now a little ludicrous to think that that was the way it was. my first year at the Athletes Commission was ⁓ in 2019, was when got elected onto it. And ⁓ I didn't a whole lot of awareness ⁓ of ⁓ commission what it was doing. ⁓ I had friends who were part of the previous commission. ⁓

Future Of Figure Skating: Mm-hmm.

Eric Radford: And it was my federation who suggested, we think that you might be a good fit for this. Would you consider doing it? And then I, that was the first time I really read about the commission. And I was like, ⁓ you know, I think that I would like this to ⁓ kind of keep my foot. in the world of figure skating as I was sort of transitioning out the first time after retiring for the first time with Meagan after 2018. had our meeting and I got to the other commission members in person ⁓ in Rome ⁓ and were in room. And somebody said, you know, one of the representatives, ISU representatives came in and were like, welcome to the Athletes Commission. We wish you all the best. And they walked out and they closed the door and we all looked at each other and we were like, what are we supposed to do? And so we really started with a very clean slate. We've come a long way in the last seven years in terms of understanding our purpose and our direction.

Future Of Figure Skating: so the group includes all of the sports within the ISU. You've got the figure skating, synchro, and short track and speed skating. ⁓ Those sports are so different from each other in so many ways. ⁓ you found that there is ⁓ commonalities between the things that ⁓ athletes care about that athletes need across these sports?

Eric Radford: ⁓ definitely. There's definitely, I think, athletes on a baseline want to be ⁓ the know. They want to understand. ⁓ mean, and this is from my own personal experience as well. And, and, and the other commission members, we've all talked about how when we were athletes, ⁓ would read about rule changes and. ⁓ there was no explanation. It was like, okay, this is what this is worth next year, or this is the change we're making. And we were like, who's coming up with this? Why is this being made? And it leaves... It left me feeling like powerless and out of the loop and frustrated. ⁓ So I know that that's common across all of the sports. ⁓ One small thing I would like to point out is that currently I am the singles and pairs representative, ⁓ the next ⁓ Like as we, because I'm at the very end of my term and in the next commission we'll have, it'll be separated. So there'll be a singles representative and a pairs representative, ⁓ which I think is smart because the two disciplines, while they are similar in some way, they're very different in other ways as well. ⁓ I think ⁓ it's been very interesting to learn about the dynamics of speed skating. they've sort of, guess, ⁓ long-term challenges, ⁓ the as in figure skating. And, you know, they have their own ⁓ version ⁓ and ⁓ of within sport, which we also have in figure skating. ⁓ there's been lot attention to increasing the popularity of figure skating, compared to speed skating, figure skating is starting at like a higher level. And so ⁓ it's always been interesting to see and sort of compare the difference of what's needed in each sport to try the sport, to try and help the sport to grow. ⁓ but yeah, sorry, I'm getting sidetracked from your original question, but,

Future Of Figure Skating: No, no, ⁓ the ISU, I think there's some maybe efforts and maybe have something to say toward this, but of trying to ⁓ connect a little bit more across the sports. at least of a possible sort of. festival competition combining ⁓ the different sports into one place or at least, you know, trying to have more connection across them. And at the same time, there are so little crossover that I've seen in fans. It was really interesting to be at the Olympics and see ⁓ a little bit of the short track and to see what the atmosphere was like in that competition. And there were such passionate fans who were very, very excited. ⁓ And it was very cool to see the way that, ⁓ yeah, it was just a very different environment. And it got me thinking about, ⁓ I wonder how those fans react to figure skating and vice versa.

Eric Radford: Yeah, and it was the same for me. I went to a long track competition and, you know, just the atmosphere, the energy, the crowd and how they would cheer for every athlete. mean, for anybody who maybe saw a video of the competition, it was like a sea of orange, you know, obviously. The sport being so popular in the Netherlands ⁓ and in Holland, ⁓ I think the majority of the fans there were from there. it didn't matter which country, which skater was coming around, they would be cheering them on. And ⁓ the energy was contagious. And ⁓ I think that it's such a different flavor of energy compared to a figure skating competition. I was a part of those discussions about trying to have ⁓ combining a speed and figure event together. And I think it could, it has the potential to be very interesting. ⁓ And the same with a short track, like this, the excitement and the pace is so different than figure skating. And I guess that there's also... ⁓ just that sort of emotional artistic aspect, which isn't in the speed side, but ⁓ yeah, it's a very cool experience to have witnessed at the Olympics and would be very, very, I'd be very interested to see if it would be possible to ⁓ weave them all together somehow.

Future Of Figure Skating: Yeah, the logistics of that seem very complicated. Even trying to think through where you could host it, how you would do it over a period of time, we're already worrying about competitions being too long and too expensive to run in a lot of ways. But at the same time, yeah, the idea of being able to expose to that different side is definitely compelling.

Eric Radford: Yeah, definitely.

Future Of Figure Skating: So with your years on the Athletes Commission, as you're talking about how it has evolved and you've sort of started to figure out what role that it plays and what role you play on it, tell us a little bit more about that process and what have you worked on?

Eric Radford: so just in terms of a structure, we hold meetings usually once a month. ⁓ And it started off just sort of ⁓ brainstorming, what is purpose? ⁓ What do we ⁓ on our experience as athletes, ⁓ do we wanna be better represented? ⁓ in within the ISU. What what knowledge do we want to have? What type of communication do we want to have? So it kind of started there at its foundation. ⁓ You know, as time went on, ⁓ specific ⁓ there would be specific working groups that the council would create. So sometimes based around maybe the popularity of skating, around technology in skating, around sustainability, ⁓ safeguarding athletes, ⁓ medical, like all these different smaller working groups that were put together to brainstorm and workshop on how to... usually better an area within our sports. And they would always want to have an athlete's perspective, so we'd be invited to attend these different working groups. So that was another just part of what we were working on and what we were doing. But I think the main goal and the biggest challenge would be to get the athletes to become a little bit more involved in the community. And for us... our challenge was to foster and create more of a community. And I attended a forum in Lausanne a few years ago, and it was the chair of different athlete commissions from around the world. And we were all in the same boat. It was always about, because when you're an athlete and you're training, your daily training, and you're preparing for competition, your focus is just like a laser. And it is on that one target and I can speak from my own experience like I didn't have any concern or energy to put into anything outside of that Until I would say when I got When I got a little bit further on into my career, and I got a little bit older and I started to ⁓ Just realize how important it was then I started to to see it

Future Of Figure Skating: Mm-hmm.

Eric Radford: ⁓ one of the that we kind of we started and we kind created like a postseason survey. ⁓ just to finally open up some dialogue with the athletes and to connect their thoughts and their feelings on things to the council. So when the council are making decisions, they have some sort of awareness of what the athlete's voice, what the pulse of the athletes is. ⁓ And just getting the athletes to fill out the survey was always a challenge, except I have to point out in Synchro, where I

Future Of Figure Skating: Okay.

Eric Radford: I think all of the athletes right away, they answered and synchro has such a special energy and it was always just ⁓ lovely to see how engaged they were. But I think that that's a dynamic of the sport itself. They're part of a team, they're part of community. ⁓ you see it in the atmosphere in the competitions as well. yeah, ⁓ the side note, that was very interesting ⁓ and always very lovely ⁓ witness. ⁓ started from bare bones and through the structure of ⁓ being part of working groups and ⁓ kind of we were always trying to engage the athlete's perspective and weave it into the decisions that were being made by the council.

Future Of Figure Skating: obviously you're bringing your own perspective and experience as an athlete and from the people that you know. ⁓ I'm really interested in this question of like, how do you represent ⁓ athletes a whole and engage people? Are you able to directly communicate to athletes? like truly in like the granular sense, I'm just like ⁓ wondering, you know, how you managed to do communication to get surveys to people like. Who is the ⁓ set of athletes that you represent? How far down does that go into ⁓ different levels of the sport? There's a whole bunch of questions there in one, but yeah.

Eric Radford: Yeah. But I think that that's always been the biggest challenge is how do we get that direct contact to athletes and open up a channel of communication? And so the ideal is that they have either maybe within the app or they have an email where they say, hey, I have this question. Can I get it answered? ⁓ and so the survey one aspect of that. ⁓ We started doing athlete ⁓ meetings or presentations, usually at the end of the season. So the speed skaters might do it at one of their ⁓ world cups. ⁓ For ⁓ figure skating, tried to do it at the world championships where we would actually have ⁓ in-person meetings we would... ⁓ give information about what the council was trying to achieve, things about safeguarding, about sustainability, ⁓ then always have an ⁓ ⁓ of like town hall discussion where, ⁓ do you guys want? What do you need? What level of communication are you comfortable with? But there's always been this barrier of how to... ⁓ ⁓ create that sort of access. I think that there's always, you know, with a privacy law ⁓ you know, ⁓ figuring out. ⁓ how to do it has just, it has been a big challenge. So the majority, I'd say, of the communication has come from when I've gone to competitions and I've spoken with athletes. there been ⁓ times I've had athletes reach out ⁓ through media and just say, hey, Eric, do you know what's happening with ⁓ what's on here? What can we expect? So. ⁓ I think that it's something that still needs to be improved and it's something that now and I think that you'll see a big step with the next commission because there's going to be a closer ⁓ work environment with We're going to have ⁓ more ⁓ available us. We're going to have just like a closer working relationship. ⁓ we'll have more support in order to create these types of things. And so I think that there is talk about using the app because a lot of the athletes are already sort of logged into there, ⁓ they would be able to opt in if they choose to receive ⁓ directly from the Athletes Commission. And that will open up ⁓ a line of communication that's going to make things a lot easier ⁓ disseminate ⁓ ⁓ changes to get their feedback a lot faster because right now it's it's very kind of periodic where when we get to touch base with them and actually speak to them one-on-one. ⁓

Future Of Figure Skating: Yeah. And it seems like there's been a lot of variation. if, you know, if a federation is very active in communicating information to their athletes or, you know, a coach is particularly plugged in and active, then some people are, you know, are hearing a lot and other people, if they're, you know, if their federation either isn't as plugged in or isn't as communicative, they might not be, you know, connected into it at all. And so I've heard a ⁓ variation in how aware they are of really any of what's happening within the ISU.

Eric Radford: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and that was, you know, when I first started, that was the that we wanted to address was ⁓ athletes, ⁓ decisions are directly affecting them. ⁓ We essentially are ⁓ formed base of our sports. You know, it's ⁓ blood, sweat, tears, hopes and dreams form the of these sports. ⁓ And there's this magical person up here that's making these decisions and we're just like, why? my experience over the last years when I've spoken with athletes and they'll be like, why is this happening? And, know, they're kind of angry. And I say, well, this is why it's not just about how comfortable you are about on your your your six minute warmup. I used to feel like this, too, when you have a large portion of the ISU's income coming in through TV rights and then you have a TV executive saying, can we do this, there's got to be wiggle room and that could affect the athletes. But for me, if I were to understand, let's say for example, they want to shorten the warmup time. You I loved my six minute warmup. I used the entire time and the thought of losing a minute or two minutes would throw me into a panic. But if it was for

Future Of Figure Skating: Mm-hmm.

Eric Radford: the as a whole going to help our sport gain TV rights, gain ⁓ broadcasting because I know that that's been a thing. A lot of people say, well, skating's not on TV anymore. Like ⁓ of these things, all play off of one another and there's gotta be ⁓ and take. I think that if we understand that as an athlete, we'll be more open ⁓ making these types of changes. ⁓ ⁓ think that... ⁓ giving the athletes that bigger picture, you know, and I've seen it. They're like, ⁓ yeah, you know, that makes sense. They're just not aware of what's going on on all these other like levels that you know, the ISU has to oversee. We're in our own little sphere, in our own little bubble. so it makes sense, you know, when you hear something, you're like, what, why? But then once you understand it, you know, usually it's been well received.

Future Of Figure Skating: I've sat in on some coaches meetings, which I think have a similar dynamic. Maybe the coaches are even pushier towards the technical committees than athletes might be. ⁓ But I think it was very interesting to hear. So for example, the idea of having the shorter free skates and shorter programs ⁓ in the season after next. that, I would say of the coaches that were there and vocal, it was unanimously opposed.

Eric Radford: Yeah.

Future Of Figure Skating: There was some explanation as to why, not probably not any detail, maybe, know, whether there was the right person in the room to explain whys that you're getting into. There's certainly the idea, this is what advertisers and the TV broadcasters want, but no more detail than that, you know, that was going. But what I thought was interesting about that was that the technical committees were saying, you know, well, we've reached the end of our ability to push back. Now your job is to talk to your federate. If you oppose this, your job is to talk to your federations and to give them. you know, that the ability to make their comments and push back or do that, you know, that's, that's your only pathway forward. So it got me thinking about like, you know, where, where are their voices? Where is their power? And it got me thinking again about whether the athletes and the athlete commission, you know, has a role in making these proposals and then at what stages of the process ⁓ that you ⁓ feel like you ⁓ that ability to either play a role in making the proposals in the first place or in helping to communicate athlete feedback to the proposals and sort of balancing those things.

Eric Radford: I will say that in my time as the athlete rep on the council, anytime that we gave our opinion on something or we said that something was important, I always felt like we were listened to.

Future Of Figure Skating: Mm-hmm.

Eric Radford: I never felt any sort of, ⁓ well, what do they know? Which is how I felt near the beginning, like as we were getting like placed. It always felt like, it felt like the athlete's voice wasn't really being taken into consideration. And I feel like that has really shifted. And I do feel that would be like, you know, raising the minimum age ⁓ that took place back in 2022, like. ⁓

Future Of Figure Skating: Mm-hmm.

Eric Radford: you know, we had very serious concerns and we talked to lot of athletes based on our, we pooled all of our experience together and you know, it was really paid attention to and listened to in the end. And I feel like it's like that, it has remained that way.

Future Of Figure Skating: and that's, think, a great example of of a rule you know, was ⁓ made with the long-term of athletes in mind, even though it might impact some individual athletes negatively in the short term. ⁓ And of a rule that has been ⁓ adapted, ⁓ as we've seen how it's worked out that the changes that were made for pairs and dance.

Eric Radford: Yes.

Future Of Figure Skating: ⁓ at least perception of that is that that came as a result of people in ⁓ the sport saying look, but here's why this practically needs to work for our, you know, for our sport. get what you're going ⁓ for, but can tweak it and seeing the changes? So I definitely see that in that case.

Eric Radford: Mm-hmm. Yes. Yeah. That's going to be another benefit of splitting the singles and the pairs, because right now when these rules are presented, a lot of time kind ⁓ encapsulate more ⁓ like, you do this to one, then it affects this one. ⁓ But both have their different dynamics. so ⁓ sometimes leaves your hands tied, because you're like, well, ⁓

Future Of Figure Skating: Mm-hmm.

Eric Radford: if we really want to pass this but in order to pass this we're gonna have to do this and I think now that should be like that problem should be dealt with by splitting pairs and singles and least I hope so.

Future Of Figure Skating: Yeah, yeah, I think that's great. I've definitely also seen the argument that people have made for splitting the technical committees, but I think logistically it's complicated, but ⁓ it does feel like sometimes pairs is the afterthought. So it's nice to have its own representative for sure. I'm sure it's never the afterthought with you, but just structurally. ⁓

Eric Radford: Yeah.

Future Of Figure Skating: What surprised you the most as you were sort able to see the inside of how the ISU works? That may, you things that maybe you weren't ⁓ of as an athlete.

Eric Radford: I have ⁓ visualization of this as the ISU being a giant ship. as athlete, ⁓ you like you're at the center of this big world you're going your competitive career. Getting working as part of the ISU allowed me to sort of zoom out and see, ⁓ wow, there is just there's so much other work that needs to be done because it's not just about like the competitive like laneway is just one small thread of like a huge tapestry, you know, there's developing skating in countries around the world. There's ⁓ exposing the sport to people around the world that may have never seen the sport before. There's ⁓ athlete safeguarding, there's governance, ⁓ sure everything's done in a right way ⁓ ⁓ There's a sustainability which has become a much more important part of the way that ⁓ companies and organizations function, which has really emerged in the last few years. just so much and there's, ⁓ think, a that I did not see and that I was not aware of. So that was a huge... ⁓ eye-opening part of my experience, but I really loved it. I really loved seeing everything that was going in, like everything that it took to run the ISU. Finances, that's another part, like it's a huge part. But I think that's something that that I came to realize and I let the athletes know is that there's a lot of very smart, passionate people who really are doing their best to try and do what's best for the sport. And I think that...

Future Of Figure Skating: with it.

Eric Radford: before because as an athlete I felt like such an afterthought and sometimes these rules wouldn't make any sense and and you know, it's not every rule change is always for the best and but I can sincerely and genuinely say that there are people at the top who are really trying to do what's best for the sport and a lot of Really brilliant work has been done. Especially I think with the the new council and with the new and I think that that was ⁓ a nice ⁓ realization to when I kind of moved over to the other side into ⁓ the side of things. ⁓

Future Of Figure Skating: I mean, that's the thing with these big institutions is one thing to say, you know, the ISU wants, the ISU does, and it's like, well, actually, but that is so many different people with different roles and projects and agendas or whatever, you know, within any big institution like that, it's always so much more complicated than it might look from the outside for sure.

Eric Radford: Mm-hmm.

Future Of Figure Skating: you mentioned safeguarding and that's definitely an area that I've been seeing, you know, certainly both more, ⁓ conversation coming from the ISU about the importance of it. And then also, I've following recent case, ⁓ one coach who is now being up in front of the disciplinary commission for safeguarding violations and that. I believe is the first time that that has happened. so seeing some of that commitment turning into action as well, which has been really fascinating to follow. ⁓ When I talk to people in that space, one of the things that comes up over and over again is the importance of having represented within ⁓ the conversations safeguarding, having survivors voices represented in those spaces and in policy making. So. ⁓ If there's anything you can share more about what that work has been like to sort of grow the ISU's role in ⁓ ⁓

Eric Radford: I think safeguarding and safe sport has sort of emerged as its own ⁓ giant movement ⁓ in lot of sports. And I think we've seen it come up soccer, hockey, ⁓ tennis. It's something that to happen. It was, think, a ⁓ bubble that was ready to burst, and it has. ⁓ I think that that has been such an amazing thing. And as I've watched wave spread, you see almost like a shift in, I guess, like a shift in culture. And I think a lot of it starts with education. A lot of it starts tolerance policies. for a time, I was ⁓ also on the board of Skate Canada, so I kind of got to see how it was taking shape in that sphere. And then when I moved over to the ISU, it was a little bit ⁓ than Skate Canada, but I also saw it starting to sort of blossom over here. And it comes with its own challenges, because when we're talking about trying to change culture around the entire world, ⁓ you ⁓ see obviously how challenging that is because in North America culture is one way and then in Europe cultures are very different and in Africa culture is very different and ⁓ each ⁓ is like its own little bubble with its own challenges ⁓ ⁓ know the things that we may take very seriously in one country ⁓ know I ⁓ had conversations where may an eye from ⁓ somebody in a different country because they just don't see it as important or they don't even think they have that problem over here. First of all, that awareness has been raised greatly, just in general, I think through steps of ⁓ sort of global awareness, ⁓ better education. think the younger generation takes those things more seriously, just in general. And when it comes to like what the work of the ISU is, establishing a working group around safeguarding, opening up ⁓ athlete hotlines so that there is an avenue for them to, or somebody for them to talk to. when they may feel that they can't. education and training ⁓ for and coaches. And in a structural point, there's going to be a kind of like a head of athlete wellness. ⁓ And so somebody whose ⁓ focus to these types of things and... So I've seen a lot of really good work and development on the side of the ISU and I think it's one of those things that will just always require attention and enforcement and more education until, you know, hopefully just becomes more ⁓ less ⁓ a prominent issue.

Future Of Figure Skating: Yeah, I mean, this has been the fascinating thing for me as I followed this case, in Latvia and understanding some of the approaches and ⁓ people who trained under ⁓ Soviet coaching about what is or is not abuse, it's been very interesting. But at the same time, it also has really brought to light how important having the external, ⁓ you know, the The ISU may not be independent of the sport, certainly, but may be independent of the particular conflicts of interest or problems within a federation, or simply that a country doesn't have any of the resources or capacities to do investigation themselves. It's really brought to light for me how important ⁓ the role is in this regard, and that it can't just be left each federation to deal with problems within their own federation, ⁓ which I think has been ⁓ way that it has defaulted to for a long time. ⁓ ⁓ I'm definitely glad that the ISU is getting involved with both from that education and from the disciplinary side, because I think ⁓ those teeth, ⁓ it's harder. ⁓ that's what it takes for people to kind of wake up to how serious it is.

Eric Radford: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Future Of Figure Skating: know, one of the things that I've heard talking to, um, athletes in other sports, know, there's a big difference between the Olympic sports and how they treat athlete involvement versus, you know, professional sports where they have players associations and unions. And I mean, I think part of the difference is what they're being revenue to bargain over. there's really big difference in terms of the idea of whether the goal is to integrate the athlete representatives or to keep them sort of independent of federation structures. And so obviously you're part of an athlete. commission that is getting more and more integrated. But I'm curious if you've had conversations with people from the other side of that, from the players association kind of side and seeing, do you think there's ⁓ pieces of that model that would be useful for figure skating as well?

Eric Radford: That's a great question. I haven't had many conversations with any professional athletes, so I can't speak to that very much. From my own experience, ⁓ have been times in frustration where I have ⁓ about ⁓ of those skaters ⁓ and... ⁓ and going on strike, if you will, and saying, we're not going to do this anymore if we don't get this. And of course, the hopes of that ever happening was pretty slim. I think that ⁓ each one probably has its pros and cons. ⁓ I can't speak to ⁓ structure of ⁓ player's union or anything like that, but... ⁓

Future Of Figure Skating: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Eric Radford: we could only control what's in our, within our power. So I think that for having the Athletes Commission and for it to continue to grow and guess develop and evolve is good for now.

Future Of Figure Skating: How much contact do you have with the athlete representatives in the technical committees? ⁓ you part of the same working groups? Are you kind of in your own separate bubbles? ⁓

Eric Radford: I think all ⁓ of our ⁓ representatives some point the other will join in on a technical committee's meeting. Some are more involved than others and ⁓ attend higher percentage of meetings the year. ⁓ And... our expertise and ⁓ perspective is kind of brought into the decision making. ⁓ you I have worked with the Technical Committee and heard their thinking and offered my ⁓ advice. I also think that that's something that has been little bit more like a... not structured as in, okay, we will attend this many meetings and the way some other things are within commission. It's kind of been, well, because I'm friends them and I see them at meetings and we of have a unofficial conversation and it's like, ⁓ yeah, you should come So it's not very official or structured.

Future Of Figure Skating: Mm-hmm.

Eric Radford: I think with a better framework could lead to necessarily better outcomes, but could lead to just more open communication between us and them as they're making decisions.

Future Of Figure Skating: there any projects that, ⁓ you feel like you are, ⁓ didn't get to where you wanted to, or that you're leaving undone that you hope the next, ⁓ representatives will pick up?

Eric Radford: I mean, it would sound funny to say like all of them in a way because so many within ⁓ sustainability we're at the very beginning of the development of different and where they may lead like. having input into ⁓ when a new arena is being built, like ⁓ that should be ⁓ woven ⁓ that ⁓ That's that I think, you know, maybe down the line eventually, I know that the ISU had also teamed up with the International Hockey ⁓ Federation to work together on that type of work. I think just creating more opportunities for athletes and especially more tools and support as they transition out of sport. think that has started to sort of, ⁓ least in Canada, it's some more exposure of everything that athletes sacrifice for their sport and what they're left with when they exit the sport and how little they actually get in order to pursue it. ⁓

Future Of Figure Skating: Mm-hmm.

Eric Radford: we were always talking about that within Athletes Commission and up with ideas and ⁓ I'm seeing it ⁓ starting to be paid attention. But I it's kind of like that. So there's all these little seeds that have been planted and we've sort of ⁓ nurtured them and watched them grow. And now ⁓ hand that garden over to ⁓ the next I'll watch from afar and hopefully everything continues in a good direction.

Future Of Figure Skating: Yeah, I mean, one of the things I remember when I talked a little bit about this with Evan Bates a few years ago, and one of the things that he had mentioned at the time that was a frequent concern from athletes and something you're trying to work on was about prize money. Speaking of how little athletes are left with about that, ⁓ is that something that we should expect any changes on in terms of how the prize money is structured for the big events?

Eric Radford: Yes, it's been a goal. I know that it's part of the ISU Vision 2030 you know, the ISU to kind of make more money, have more exposure, ⁓ increase the of figure skating, and then funnel some of that back into the athletes. ⁓ And I think that ⁓ it's like positive feedback loop because ⁓ like when you watch a tennis tournament or a golf tournament and you know that millions of dollars are on the line, it ⁓ engagement a specific It makes it more exciting ⁓ and ⁓ it change lives, you know? ⁓ If we could leave the sport and ⁓ leave it in financially stable position rather than... ⁓ feeling like, ⁓ I all of this into the sport and now I'm so far behind in ⁓ real ⁓ Yeah, it would be so beneficial for the athletes. They deserve it. ⁓

Future Of Figure Skating: I don't think that fans realize precarious it is even for people at the very top level to figure out how to, you know, how to fund it, how to keep going and then how to, yeah, have any kind of money set aside for life. Yeah. a little bit off the topic of the athletes commission, but it's something that I was curious about because you have this role as you're both your composer ⁓ you're, an athlete and a choreographer. And so we've had so much controversy about music rights And I know this is something that the ISU is trying to solve. And yet we're kind of in a really awkward in between place. ⁓ So I'm just curious about your thoughts. And if you feel you've had any ability to bring some insight to this, given that you. ⁓ are on kind of both sides of ⁓ that divide.

Eric Radford: of like ⁓ an annoying thing it's a give and take of two different industries ⁓ and I think saw examples play out over the with. ⁓ I believe it was Amber's, one of her programs, I saw on Twitter, the artist was like, okay, like I just found out that this skater is using my art and I'm not getting anything for it and they're using it on the stage. I get it, I understand. And you know, of course he was getting backlash, like, ⁓ you should be grateful that you're getting this exposure. But as an artist, like...

Future Of Figure Skating: Hmm.

Eric Radford: so many artists are struggling in the world and so it's important that we on any we can because ⁓ that income we ⁓ only goes back us making more art you know it's not like ⁓ at least ⁓ hope that's it is i don't think that it's for fame and fortune we're doing it because it's something that we ⁓ we feel we want to express

Future Of Figure Skating: right.

Eric Radford: but on the other side, mean, to have ⁓ like a handful of music is played at the Olympics and it's one of the biggest stages and it can change the trajectory an you know, it can ⁓ let millions of ears hear your music, may otherwise not. you may not have that opportunity. And that's one of the most difficult parts of being an artist is you can write incredibly beautiful music, but getting people to listen to it and getting that exposure is always one of the biggest barriers. So there's a give and take there. And it would be ideal to just have a structure set up where, know, ⁓ matter what, ⁓ receive some sort of compensation. which is what I know that they're trying to do with the music rights and stuff. then what happens is that it's impossible for one company to get the rights of all the music in the world. So when you're a choreographer, one of the most important part from a choreographer's perspective and from the skater's is that the piece of music you use resonates. And so if all of a sudden you are given a list and you don't find something that resonates with you, well then that decreases not only your experience, you're going to be skating to this music every day, but also for the audience because you're not receiving an authentic expression of that piece of music anymore because you've been forced to choose something you don't necessarily want to have. And that goes in a vicious cycle.

Future Of Figure Skating: .

Eric Radford: you know, like there's no ideal, there's no ⁓ fix ⁓ no definitive answer It's something I think constantly being looked at and ⁓ reassessed. ⁓ And hopefully at some point in future, ⁓ a solution that appeases ⁓ all sides of ⁓

Future Of Figure Skating: Yeah, well, and it's been clear all along that neither the musicians themselves or the athletes themselves or coaches or choreographers understood any of how what was happening in the middle of the business in between. I wrote a story about this about a year and a half ago and even trying to get any kind of clear answers about what does happen was really hard. And I talked to copyright lawyers and I talked to, you know, I talked to all these people and it was like Yeah, this is messy. There's no clear answer to it. It does seem like for the Olympics anyway, I wonder what role the broadcasters ⁓ should playing in it, I think it makes sense from the artist's perspective to think, well, my music's being played to this audience of millions and millions of people around the world. ⁓ Surely somebody should be paying me for that. The skater is not the one who's making any money off of it being shown to millions of people around the world. So you think, if I think about where, you know, where there is revenue, it comes in, should be where the cost is born. But, but I know it gets complicated because of course you're performing in many different spaces around, around the world in different countries and different roles and all over the rest of it.

Eric Radford: It's one of the most convoluted problems where there's so little structure and where one thing that applies here, you can't apply here, but then you need something that applies everywhere. Yeah, it's not an easy fix.

Future Of Figure Skating: Mm-hmm. In wrapping up, I'd love to know ⁓ what advice that have for the incoming representatives. I think we don't know at least publicly yet who the pairs representative will be. The singles representative is ⁓ Adam Hagara, which I kind of ⁓ love that we, very unusual that we have someone who's sort of young and in the start of his career playing this kind of a role. for him versus for, I mean, for either whether it's Wenjing or it's... Deanna, they're very different part of a career than Adam is. But yeah, I'm curious what advice that you would have for them coming into this role at this point.

Eric Radford: Well, part of what we've been doing in our commission is preparing a little bit of like a guide ⁓ if you want to call it that, like ⁓ just to let them know, ⁓ structure and some insight some goals, which we did not have at the beginning. imagine a lot of will be to continue develop the community, ⁓ to continue to develop communication between ⁓ the council, ⁓ the ⁓ and the skaters, increase the ⁓ of communication. One of the biggest ones will be to don't shy away from sharing your perspective and sharing your voice. my first meetings on the council, could be very intimidating. ⁓ ⁓ listened a lot, even though I had a lot of thoughts or perspectives, ⁓ I was unsure of myself ⁓ I didn't want to, you know, I was... ⁓ I to make sure that I had the right bearings on things and I think that ⁓ it's for the athletes who are on the committee to remain quiet when their instinct is telling them ⁓ that they should up. ⁓

Future Of Figure Skating: That seems like such a hard transition in some ways for, athletes who ⁓ I figure skating does not encourage ⁓ sharing opinions. A lot of the time you're scared that, you know, you say something, the judge is going to react poorly or your federation or, know, there's ⁓ all those other people that have such an important power over ⁓ decisions impact skaters. So yeah, that, that transition to ⁓ being an advocate is a big, big psychological change, would think, for lot of athletes.

Eric Radford: Yeah, yeah, can take some, it took me time. I could definitely just take time, but I do feel that the environment is becoming safer and safer and more and more kind of conducive to that open communication where there's bad ⁓ ideas you can ⁓ feel more open, free comfortable ⁓ to share thoughts and to know that they will be taken seriously. ⁓

Future Of Figure Skating: On that note, there has been at least a ⁓ rumor that there is a proposal that would make criticizing judges an offense that could take you to the disciplinary commission. Do you know anything about that and how does that fit in with the openness? ⁓

Eric Radford: I only read about that myself. ⁓ I have not been in any sort of official talk about that. All I can say is personally, I think that it's a very bad idea. ⁓ I think that there's no need ⁓ it. I think that... ⁓ ⁓ When an athlete, not only when an athlete speaks up, like does it, is it a way to bring about change, which we've seen. Like athlete needs to, like it's a subjective sport. Like we need to be able to express ourselves even if it goes against the grain. And if anything, it brings more eyes on the sport. Like if everything's just perfect all the time and everybody fits into their little box, like it's going to lose its soul. You need to have that space in order for, for an athlete to say, I disagree. And does it change the result? Maybe not.

Future Of Figure Skating: Mm-hmm.

Eric Radford: But that space has always been there, even though there's been pressure against it. But I think that more than ever with it's, it's not only what we need in the sport, it's kind of what we need in the world. Why just ⁓ embrace it?

Future Of Figure Skating: I was happy to see, you know, athletes speaking up more this year. I was at the Finlandia trophy and, I think it comes from a place of, ⁓ frustration and, know, like if we don't understand, how can we be motivated? If we don't understand what, how we're being judged, how can we be motivated to keep working to improve? And I think it's really important that the, you know, the judges and the ISU and everybody, you know, hears that not as a

Eric Radford: Absolutely.

Future Of Figure Skating: we think you judges are bad at your jobs and we're going to, you know, attack you. But as a like genuine, concern, ⁓ if athletes are feeling, you know, demoralized by, judging that's a concern that would need to be taken seriously rather than squashed.

Eric Radford: Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

Future Of Figure Skating: Thank you so much, Eric. I always like to wrap up the podcast with this sort of broad question of what you hope for from the future of figure skating. And I know that's an incredibly broad question, but it's an opportunity if there's anything that we haven't talked about that you want to touch on or ⁓ go back to reiterate.

Eric Radford: I think that ⁓ ⁓ would love to see ⁓ ⁓ think that the world ⁓ noticed, especially the skating world, ⁓ noticed that you can reach the very top level in a totally different way. ⁓ And Alyssa just ⁓ was shining example of that. ⁓ If could have gone through my career, ⁓ with that attitude, it would have saved me a lot of deep personal work that I had to do when I exited the sport. And if we could see that mindset off ⁓ the athletes around the world, I not only think that... ⁓ We'll see better performances. We'll see more skating from the heart. like a higher level of consistency ⁓ it'll just ⁓ the sort of spirit of the whole sport. ⁓ ⁓ would be amazing if that attitude mindset ⁓ ⁓ on and ⁓ even more. ⁓

Future Of Figure Skating: I love that. Yeah, it's been really wonderful to see and to see how even people outside of skating connect so much with what she's shared.

Eric Radford: Mm-hmm.

Future Of Figure Skating: Thank you so much, Eric. It's been great to talk with you.

Eric Radford: Yeah, thank you so much.