Intro: Hello and welcome to Nurtural Disasters. This is a podcast for those of us with toxic or emotionally immature parents. We might not have a bunch of credentials next to our names, but we do have PhDs from the Hard Knocks University. Basically, we want this to be a validating space for adult children of parents who had no business having children. ⁓ Lisa: It's crazy. And this poor kid. my god. he talks about the the J Shady podcast about how he was able to get out. His dad actually was able to help him get out. He got a note. Well, he had his friend Ryan in the book. He wrote a note and his friend Ryan hid it. in his underwear and got it to his dad's manager to his and his manager got it to his dad. That's one of the reasons. But in the book he talks about there was another girl that he met at another institution. He went from one institution to another institution. So in the second institution he was in, it was for older people. Like people literally older like people late teens, twenties. So and he's like this like 12, 13-year-old kid going to this kid institution to adult institution, which is so fucking weird. And he was like, people are talking about sex and drugs, and he had no idea being thrust into this world. And where was I going with this? fuck. he meets this girl. And And he goes, we live in the same town? wait. they went to the same schools and she knew his dad's brother, who was a substitute teacher at one of the high schools. She knew him. And he goes, Can you tell him that I can you tell my dad that I'm here? Just just just tell him. That's my dad's when you get out, tell him. So he's like, Okay, I have two different places so my dad knows, because he didn't know if his dad knew. All he knew was like my dad didn't want me to see me, and I'm stuck in these institutions. And we know now from the receipts and the documentation. Karen Karen, I keep calling her Karen. Kate. she said, do not inform the dad about this. And wow. Like he he fought had to MacGyver himself out of that place. Cause I don't think Kate realized that he would be out. She just thought, yeah, gonna institutionalize him and say that he's this and this. And He'll be forgotten about and let them deal with it and then I can just go on with my life, right? I don't think she Ken: The interesting thing the the interesting thing I I I see about that, you always hear about, the old Tommy thing where, some someone living in what, the nineteenth or twentieth century, and they wanna get rid of their wife and they wanna they wanna get divorced, but they don't wanna, you know, lose all their money, so they have their wife committed to a mental institution. It was like, well, wait, if I send her up the river to the mental institution, everybody thinks she's gonna be crazy. All the claims she has against me will like off, right? She probably thought that about her son. Once I had him committed, no one's gonna ever believe anything he says. And she could use that as leverage. Well, at least as it brought her what, a couple years, maybe a decade of just peace of mind. Until Lisa: Yeah. Ken: he got out, right? Until we became an adult. I and it's interesting you bring up the he kept the receipts. I think a lot of it is remember he wanted to be serving in the Marines. He went to academy And the only reason why he didn't progress to the next level to active deployment was because they saw that he had some, mental issues being committed and stuff like that. And he I think he he was hey I hey that's not true. A lot of that stuff I my mom had me committed. So I think that was his journey about s kind of disclaiming all these things. I'm not meant I'm not crazy. I don't have all these mental issues that my mother has said. So I think that's why he started accumulating receipts. Because this was s he tried to get out of that. He tried to have a career. He wanted to be in active deployment. And I think that's why that's where it started. And eventually it just led to this, right? It led to the it led to the memoirs and it led to the claims against the mother. And Lisa: Mm. Ken: who knows if he didn't get mi get committed, maybe he would have just joined the Marines and, you know, active deployment. Had a nice little career. D did what he wanted. And I think His mom pulling this actually affected him what he wanted to do. And I don't wanna say he did it out of spite, but he she kinda took that dream away from him. So Lisa: So Ken: this is like a perfect revenge, right? Lisa: Yeah. I like you were saying, back in the day they would say women were hysterical. Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: Claim hysteria, they institutionalized she did it with Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: but with the modern day it it's funny because he says she claimed ADHD and O C D and all these Ken: And that's such a yeah, and again, what w I I know it wasn't that long ago, but the thing is you know how people diagnose themselves. It it it's believable. It's a believable diagnosis to to throw to a s to to throw them an ins institution. It's believable. It's not like he there it's it's harder to claim other things, right? he's a psychopath or something like that. every kid has ADD or something like that. Right? So it's it's it's He's disobedient, he won't he won't obey. so you know, I could get him committed for that. She would have got away with it too if he if he was in the military right now. Like she would have got away with it. He probably would not have brought this up as like, I'll just let bygones be giggons. I got what I wanted. I'm an adult now. I'm I'm a Marine. I became an officer. I don't know how many awards he would get. Or afterwards he's civilian life, you know, he becomes an engineer or something like that. But no, he didn't get to do that. So because is what his mom falsely accused him of. Lisa: Well y sh that Ken: Of having having him committed. Lisa: was her It those that was her rebuttal to he was interviewed by Vice and he basically said, Yeah, my mom had me commit it. She did this and this and this this to me. Like he basically he spilled a fucking tea. And, you know, of course she had to do damage control. And it's like, well, I had to institutionalize him because he did this and and you know, the all the psychiatrists Child psychiatrists they told me that I needed to do this because he was he had OCD and he had bipolar and he was this and you know all this bullshit. And that's what what her rebuttal to his vice video that w pretty much went viral, I would assume. that's y he talks about in the book. That's when they said, look, you have all these mental health issues, you cannot be in the military. Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: You cannot go on deployment. So that's when he was pulled aside after doing going through boot camp and doing all this work at the very last minute. And he's like, Fuck this, the rug got pulled under me one more time. This bitch fucked me over one more time. And then that's when he was like, I'm gonna get evaluated. And he got evaluated. He like, you know, calling up different doctors and he found this one doctor who's a specialist in actually bipolar disorder. ended it this long rigorous he said it was a very intense assessment to get him through like autism and you know Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: and said no and and he even e and the psychiatrist said so you were living your mom made you live in the basement and you know you don't have to talk about it. He's like, no, I do want to talk about it. Because before he was more reticent to talk about it because it was too painful. But I think his anger sometimes when you're Ken: Yes. Yeah. Lisa: s overrode the shame and the pain to the point where it's like, I'm gonna fucking talk about this because I you know, anger it's a very powerful emotion and basically cleared him of all the bullshit that Kate Kate's bullshit vindicated. He had it on paper. Ken: It's crazy thing is if she didn't pull that out of him and just, just let's he she could literally have him I was like, Well, don't film my son, okay? He doesn't want to be filmed, okay? She could have been that doing that. Totally fine. If you want to film a a what big shot of the family going out to a picnic or something like that, or to, the theme park, yeah, you could film Colin. But as a mother sh What was she thinking? She wasn't thinking at all, was she? She was thinking, we're we're trying to sell a product, we're trying to sell a show. Lisa: Mm-hmm. They're extensions Ken: Y you know Lisa: of see, her kids are extensions of her. She's a narcissist. Ken: Mm-hmm. Well, I don't know. I kinda would I would ask you this, Lisa. If let's say you did do a show like that. Let's say let's say you you they paid you a bunch of money, you had a bunch of kids, and one of the kids like, Mom, I don't really feel like filming. what would you do if the kid did that? If the kid started acting up a little bit, you talk to the kid, it's like, hey, how come you're acting up? You're not into it. It was like I don't really want to do this. I just wanna have fun. Lisa: Yeah, of course. Ken: as a love as a normal well adjusted adult that's not insane. Like Kate. She's a she probably has some insanity in her. But what would you do, Lisa? Lisa: Me f well first of all, I would not do that to like film a children. I would not put children in front of a camera. But if that were the case where it's like it it was dire and they c I could tell the kids were just too camera shy and they were uncomfortable, I'd basically be like, No. No. Just just let them be look, they just wanna go play with their f friends, play with their siblings. Just let them but again, I'm And you're not my meal ticket. I'm not a the narcissistic stage mom, right? Ken: Mm-hmm. And and you know, and even if you were, let's say like it's like a package deal, right? They're gonna be telling you, Well, we wanna see the kids, it's it's Kate plus eight. Lisa: Right, it's like a twenty million dollars or nothing. I was like Ken: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Well, you you you have leverage at thing at that point. You're a star, right? for TLC, you're a star. You have a hit show. If one of the kids doesn't want to do it, you could you could you could chimmy it a little bit. the kid's more important in my opinion. But I don't have the mindset she does. I could just easily be like, hey, could you just not film Colin? You could film Colin on the side, but if Colin but if Colin doesn't want to do it anymore, please don't tell him to redo it. He's a kid. Lisa: You know what? what's weird? There was at one part, I guess when they went to this one escape room when they were filming and and this is when after John had left and Colin was living in the basement. And He said, it's like living in my room, so I it should be easy. But he said it innocently. He didn't mean it as a like throw his mom under the bus. His mom got so mad. she pulled him to the side, scolded him, whatever. And he says, if you watch that episode, he's not really in it in the escape room. You see his siblings, but maybe you see like a shot of him in the lobby. But then all the other kids trying to figure it out. obviously they filming around him because they fucking did it with that escape room, right? So Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: they could obviously filmed around him if he didn't want to. Ken: Yeah, and i if she requested it that they film around him, maybe just have him on group shots. And again, eight kids, that's a lot of kids. They don't have to focus on not everybody has to get equal time. So And also, Lisa: Mm. Ken: that that's the least of your worries, right? I'm thinking, why did she treat her son this way? She didn't have to. She just did it. She willingly did it. This is vindictiveness. She willingly did it. Like she's a drill sergeant. She's like a manager. She had total control over him. And I think he mentioned that it it's such a crazy thing to be control your a someone like a kid, like your child, who has can't do anything without their parent. They're totally helpless at that age. And you kind of run that kind of lifestyle and kind of that kind of treat your kid that way. it's it's insane in in my opinion. I think he mentioned that was that Lisa: He mentioned that was Ken: I found really interesting was that I think she wrote a you know diary and entr entry and she was religious and she's mentioning how I I need help to not hit my son. He somehow got came across that and I was like, wow. It's really Lisa: It's Ken: interesting that my mom needs help to not hit me. She's asking for help not to hit me. That's kinda like that was like, what kind of crazy person are you dealing with here, right? That's insane. Lisa: Yeah, he talks about in the book towards the end. So there was an author and I guess he found in I don't know if it's in her trash can, but she had written things when Colin was a little kid and I mean very, very little, maybe toddler, maybe earlier. That's like she could not stop hitting him. And he found these journal entries, and published them. So and and he found out later on, you know, when he was investigating about his childhood and like you were saying. interesting. And towards the end of the book, he also talks about Kate and her father. So her father was obviously a narcissist. As we know, if there's a narcissist, invariably they have a narcissistic parent, right? Her fat It's so Ken: Yeah, it passes down to generation. Lisa: intergenerational. Her father was not a nice person. he had singled out Kate, treated her like shit, and the way he treated her was the way she treated Colin. So I wonder if there was a way well, let me phrase it. Mm-hmm I think Colin that she th saw too much of herself in him because he was kind of a stubborn, you know, kid. a strong old kid and she herself is a very stubborn person, so saw too much of herself and And it it's is the same story, right? Because usually with abusive parents, it's like, their own parents abuse them the same way, just in more like prolonged periods of time and this and that, but it's it's the same story over one generation to the next, the next, the next. That's the same thing with Kate's father. And I I guess there's like a recording, one of the episodes when Kate and John, when they get married. Kate's father is his face is blurred out in the actual wedding. that's from what I was seeing in the videos. Interesting, right? Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: Okay, well. Ken: It's it if she saw herself in her son. Let's perpetuate that violence as he tried to make her son into another narcissist? I don't even know. It's it's you probably she probably thinks that doesn't think that far. She just thinks that I'm damage people, hurt people. Lisa: sa Colin says hurt people, heal people, which I love. Ken: Which I hope because yeah, that's that's what he wants to do with the rest of his life, at least in the near future, is kind of you know, create a safe space for people that have these issues with their parents. Because one thing he did bring that was that I really resonated with is when you're young and you get abused by your parents like something like that, it's really hard as a kid to convince other people, adults, that you're being abused. A lot of the times is CPS goes in there and how they write their report, common sense would be like take the kid out of the situation while we investigate them. A lot of the times is in the CPS report, we don't see any kind of critical need to take the kid from the household. And when you have situations like that, most often than not, the kid's not the one that reported this. It's someone else that saw something. maybe a teacher or someone close to the kid saw something that was wrong, maybe some signs of abuse. Lisa: Maybe some Ken: The kid's not going to be willing, usually participants in doing this. Because if this doesn't work out, even the kid knows at a young age, I'm gonna get punished. So there's n in my mind, no greater kind of evil in abusing and kind of doing this kind of manipulation on like people Or even animals that have no will or even ability to fight back. That's just as a kid, it's it's what could they do? You it they're like they're like your punching bag, for lack of a better term. There's nothing the kid could do. So to enact this kind of will and control over a person and feel no remorse, there's some sort of vindictiveness and some evil in there. Now you could say, Well, is Kate evil? Who knows? But she definitely did a lot of bad things to her son. Lisa: no, she's evil. Ken: Yeah, that's yeah, the d if you've been listening to this podcast, it's like, yeah, we have no s sympathy for that. I'm just trying to say, hey, if you do this to a helpless kid or animal, like if you be that's what you do, you abuse kids and animals. Like there's some sort of evilness in there. There's like psychopaths in there that do that, right? you abuse those that can't defend themselves. There's something warped in someone's mind when they do that. And hopefully Colin does he could bring awareness to this. I think he wants to bring awareness to this. Lisa: He is because, talking okay, going back to what you said about CPS, he didn't call it C P S but it was it's like C O P or whatever. Ken: Mm. It's it's it's it's equivalent. It's like calling child protective services or something to the equivalent, yeah. Lisa: Right. It's a ch it's a child protective services type of situation. What happened was his mom had pulled his ear so hard that it was purple and the teacher noticed it and then the teacher reported it to yeah, obviously 'cause you they're mandated reporters, so they have to report Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: it. And literally by the time the teacher had reported it till the authorities had showed up to his house, it was a month later. Ken: Yeah. Yeah. Lisa: So and within that month, he said, my ear had already Ken: Yeah, yeah. Lisa: healed she brought me back from the basement and they scheduled in a time. So Kate already knew when the social worker was coming. So she knew she's like, okay, I'm gonna bring Colin in from the basement and I'm gonna have all the kids happy and I'm gonna greet the social worker like happy, like, no. It's just thing and it was no no no I mean I right? Ken: Yeah. And and and a lot of it has to do with just there's not you know, there's not the workload of some of these social workers are like it's terrible. Like there's not enough staffing. So Lisa: Yes. Yes. Ken: and even so, I think what they're able to do is much more limited than what we think. It's like, they can't they can't just like, you know we were I remember watching a Simpsons episode where they took the Simpsons a like the Simpsons kids away and yeah, it it's not that easy. Actually, there's certain kids that I probably s seen in my life as like your parents should have been like put in jail and you should have been taken away. But it it doesn't happen that way. yeah, especially yeah, it's like she's a master manipulator, like I've seen this in people that are trying to build a case against their their ex-spouse or upcoming spouse during a divorce and try these kind of things and claim that the husband's like abuser or something like that. This is not much different than that. She's building a case. she's trying to hide her tracks. I just want to know is is this like why he was turned into a homeschool kid? Because his other siblings were all like going to school. He was not after a while. He was homeschooled by her. Lisa: it wasn't by her. Yes, he was homeschooled and that happened after they were contacted by the authorities. So Ken: So yeah, it makes sense, doesn't it? Lisa: Yes, exactly. She did that because it exposed her abuse too much. So but he was homeschooled by I don't know if it's you know, in in the entertainment realm, they have their own teachers and tutors. Yeah, Ken: teachers and stuff like that. Mm-hmm. Lisa: and he said actually when the When the teachers would come, I think he called her Miss Johnson, I don't remember, but he said she showed him a lot of kindness and one on one attention that he did not get. Like she would take him out on outings and they would have ice cream and he said, This was like the first time he saw an adult showing him this level attention and he really appreciated that until well up at to that point he did like it, but then something happened where Kate and her bodyguard whom she might or might not have been having relations with before and after her marriage, allegedly. Allegedly, huh. Ken: I've heard about that rumor. I've heard about that rumor. That was yeah. Lisa: So she and the bodyguard had scheduled To go away together on a vacation. So the teacher was left to take care of the kids. So it was like, wow, we all get to play games with my like be a normal kid. He didn't have to be in the basement. And but what happened was in the middle of like him having dinner with his siblings and stuff, which was he was not allowed to do, and she goes, Colin, now you need to go to bed. And he goes, Why? No one has to go to bed. It's so early. He goes, no, your mom says you need to go to bed. So he He has to go back to the basement and he tells her, he begs her. He's like, please don't lock the door. you can close the door, but don't lock it. Please don't lock it. And she goes, Okay, yeah. So, and he hears the lock. And that's when he loses it. And he's like, he cries and he begs, please don't lock it, please. And he's begging and screaming to her, don't lock the door. It's like that's it's so heartbreaking when he said that. When he said that, like honestly, I teared. Up when I was listening to him when he talked about that because it was my god, my god, I can't even talk about it. So bad! my god. Ken: Well, just it's it's i it's crazy you mentioned that because I remember my cousin, who I'm close with, who grew up with my sister, mentioned that wh whenever they were playing, like my sister and my cousins, they're all about the same age, for some reason my parents would just stop her from playing, it'd be like, You gotta go to sleep and like pull pull her away from the rest of the group. And I remember him telling me, it was odd that your parents did that. It was 8 30. And it wasn't like a lot of times it wasn't the school night when they were playing together. It was over the weekend. whenever I heard that, I've heard that story a couple of times and I always wonder What is up with that? And this kind of reminded me of that. Just re make me recall why did my parents do that to my sister? Like just take her away from, you know, fun with family and like section her off. I can't answer that. But that's that's what I thought of when you mentioned that he he was separated from the rest of the group, rest of the herd. You know, the normal kids. And it makes me think about my sister. That's a thinker. Lisa: Yeah, it's pretty bad. Ken: I'm not sure if that correlates with that. my sister wasn't locked in a room or something like that. But Lisa: Mm-hmm. Ken: that's I could just I could just imagine. 'Cause he's a modern day prisoner, a childhood prisoner or a wicked stepmom, except that's actually his mom. It is it's like it it it seems like fairy tale, doesn't it? Seems like fairy tale that someone like a like evil parent would do that to their kid, lock him in a dungeon. But that's essentially what Kate did. Lisa: Yeah. And Ken: yeah, yeah. Poor poor kid. Lisa: A lot easier. Ken: Yeah. It's it's a sad situation. It's what a poor poor kid. And I wish the best for him, that he has a positive outlook beyond this. Because the kids do need a advocate like this. kids are mostly helpless. they can't say a lot of things and a lot of times when they do stick their nose out and claim something, a lot of people don't believe them. it's quite a c common thing that the you know, parents, adults don't believe the kid. They think the kid's lying. So Yeah, can you imagine being the eleven year old and then having your parents commit you just because you won't listen to them? S supposedly. Imagine even getting locked in your room. This is this is this is major child abuse things that are happening here. Lisa: it's weird because it reminded me of something that happened when I was a kid growing up in Mexico, where so I guess there was one incident like my brother, he had a ring in his finger and it got stuck. And they did everything like we live in the upstairs part of the house and then my grandmother came and they put like olive oil in his hand to just get like all like it was hours, right? And then my mom's partner at the time said, get that witch out of here. And then I don't know what I said, but she had left. And he got so mad at me. He threw me into the the room where the dog was sleeping. And just like that just threw me. And I Ken: Hm. Lisa: landed on the floor. And I was a little kid. And I was supposed to sleep there with a dog. And I just remember being so upset because I don't even know what I said, that was like so bad. And then and the dog came up to me and was consoling me. Like it was so sweet to me. And like my mom was there and she didn't do shit. But her partner just made me sleep there with the dog. And I remember being so scared. Like it was so fucked up. Ken: Yeah, it's it's it's it that sounds horrible. how old were you again? Lisa: I don't know, I'm maybe seven. Ken: Yeah d wha what yeah, what kind of what kind of process do you have do you have in your brain where you put a seven year old in that kind of situation? That's like I've I've heard stories where where parents was like, I'm gonna throw my kids out as like your kids survive. most often than most often than not, it's it's I throw my kid out and then I open the door like a minute later when they're crying. Because that's what really what most parents is try trying to scare the kid a little bit. But two, you know It's a modern day Oliver Twist thing. it it's like how you treat a orphan boy. these people are cartoonish in the way they treat children. Very cartoonish. Lisa: Yeah, I fucking hate narcissists. Ken: No, not narcissists. not just narcissists, but just people that abuse children and animals. It's like what are they thinking? Maybe they're not thinking. They're just that's just how they function. They're just Yeah, Lisa: Yeah, we're not thinking about themselves. Ken: that's how they function, right? It's it's self preservation, it's how I I how you know other people view me, how I feel about myself, how I, you know, my insecurities and stuff like I have to cover it, I have to, you know, put up this facade. The common decency is not there anymore. They they forgot one thing common decency. Just being It's it's being vindictive. Lisa: And then they wonder why. Why don't my kids not talk to me? Why is there a stretchment of it? Ken: Well here's yeah, yeah, but the thing is, the it's it's always a worrisome kind of thing when some one person gets singled out like Holland does, right? the other kids were totally fine. I doubt that they're gonna come up with some expose. Who knows? Maybe, maybe one other one, but it's it's our little life against what he said. It's it's there's more people on this other side that are backing up the mother, probably. Lisa: well Ken: so Lisa: his sister Hannah, she went to move into she moved in with her dad eventually. So I guess like after Colin left, she was I guess it sounds like she was the new scapegoat child. So Ken: It it she I just Kate couldn't help herself maybe. Lisa: They need a new scapegoat. They always need a scapegoat to be their punching bag. So I guess Ken: Well, when things aren't going well, I'm assuming for her that just how she is mentally. she needs someone to blame for certain things. Things not going well, not going the way she plans it. Now there's the kids, you know I I like the British way of how they say like getting someone committed, they call getting sectioned. So I always use they got sectioned. Yeah, so after her son gets sectioned, she has a new target. And I don't know much about Hannah, so maybe in the future she might say something. But it's interesting. Lisa: She said she no, she said she said things like she noticed how Colin would not have dinner with the rest of the kids. How she isolated them. Ken: Yeah, but how how was sh how was she treated? Lisa: I apparently after Colin left she got treated worse to the point where she said, I wanna live with my dad Ken: It comes a certain thing there where if it's like How is John in all of this? Lisa: Well, according to John, he had been looking for Colin for a couple of years. He didn't know that he had been institutionalized. Ken: Well he yeah for for good reason. She she didn't tell him. she kept this close to her chest so the ex husband could not intervene. Lisa: And he did. Ken: It i it is How do you how do you how do you view John during this situation? Willing participant, anything else? Lisa: what what we've we've talked Ken: Found out too late, couldn't do anything. Lisa: we've talked about this before, right? There's Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: a narcissistic. They're either the other parents either narcissistic or they're like the passive enabling parent. I guess he Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: was the passive enabling parent. he enabled a lot of her abuse. So he does not get that pass. I'm not giving him a pass. I mean, I do give him props for getting Colin out because without John Colin would have still up till eight his eighteenth birthday, he would have been institutionalized. And you know, and I do have to commend him, John for fighting for him. But there were other things after Colin got out. And Colin said, I don't want to talk to the press about this. And Colin kept pushing him, his son, to say, Go to the press and tell them what she did to you. You know, because everyone's calling her America's best mom and in the press, and she's talking shit about you. And he's like, you know, I don't want to deal with this right now. And he was right, you know, he had been through a lot of trauma. He didn't want to talk about it. He didn't want he was still processing it. He was dealing with it. It takes years to process trauma, And his dad kept pressuring him, which was completely inappropriate. he violated his boundaries to the point where there was one point where John went to the press and said, Kate did this and this and this. And this is right before Colin was going into high school. And he's like, Great, now everybody knows my business. He's like, I can't just be an anonymous kid, just I'm just trying to fit in wearing the right sneakers and this. Now everyone knows what happened to me and he was so embarrassed and John was not he should not have done that. That was completely inappropriate. so I feel very conflicted about John and in some cases I feel like yes, he saved his son and I commend him for that. In other cases, he violated his boundaries too. So his anger towards Kate superseded His own son's need for privacy and his own son's needs just to heal. you need time to heal. Let him Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: do his own thing on his own time. And there was a lot of pressure. He still had that pressure because even there were other psychologists that he went to. He was into therapy and they were like, What happened then? So what happened in the institution? What happened this? What did your mom? And he's I don't want to talk about it. You know, if your client tells you I don't want to talk about it, don't bring it up. Don't fraud because talk therapy is very it it's re-traumatizing so Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: how do you not fucking know that as a therapist psychologist as a licensed mental health professional do not do that it is re-traumatizing but unfortunately most mental health professionals are not trauma informed So they're like, tell me, give me all of your traumas and the first fucking day that you see them. They don't you're not supposed do that. So they don't get it. You know? He's not ready to talk about it. he's not ready to talk about it. Let him do his thing. When he's ready, he's ready. What the fuck? And it's like I don't have a bunch of degrees and I know that shit. It's again, and this is just a few years ago. This is wasn't this wasn't like two decades ago, three decades ago, whatever. So poor Colin. And you know, that happened where like he was in high school and he got triggered over something that happened because it reminded him of something that happened in the institution where someone had a meltdown and he just ran off of school and the the principal chased him and was like, Colin, call him back. But this principal actually knew Colin's backstory because of what. John had said and was not mean to him. Was like okay, I I understand you need some time. it was very understanding. but at the same time, it's so c it's so complicated and so complex and man, what do you think, Ken? Ken: Well, I I understand why John you know pressured his son. it it i i in a way it's not right. But I think I think his motivations were, you know, too he knew his wife, his ex wife, is kind of a monster. And when you have a witness, someone that proves your point, you kinda want that person to spill the beans. It's kinda like if you had Build a case against someone. Maybe, maybe an old friend you had that, this person is laugh and nobody believes me. And then you finally find someone else that has been going the same thing that you have. been g going with the same bullshit. And and then they tell you about it. It's like you gotta, you gotta back me up on this. And I think that that became like a thing. you kinda want someone to back you up on something you already know. Be kinda be your, sounding board, be your proof that this happened. So I could understand his motivations for that and he probably didn't have the best of relationships with his ex-wife. So he he knew what Colin had on his mom. That if he even let it out there, it would torpedo all the facade that she built up. And that would probably hopefully be the start, and then eventually someone else is gonna say something, and then all this is gonna come out, and it's gonna be the nail in the coffin for that lady. So he Only for him is just out of spite. I think a little bit is he's he's he's he's a dad. He he knows that eventually Colin's gonna have to confront this as just a matter of time. He will never, you know, grow from this if he doesn't confront these kind of demons, this acknowledgement that his mom abused him as a kid. So there's there's just conflicting thoughts. you know, that Would it be better if he waited five, ten more years? Who knows? Well, we got we got something to think about because he kinda p said things about his mom that I kinda figured was true. There's no way this lady is mommy dearest Well, unfortunately she is a mommy dearest and she just beat the crap out of her kids. But she's not like a perfect mom. You could see it there's like there's something off about this and Whenever you see parents, or this family dynamic in reality shows, you always have to see there's gotta be something wrong here, right? No no normal family that's functioning normally wants the cameras to be on them. Especially when it's a spectacle kind of show. When you have a lot of kids. This is not normal. Like family's not supposed to have like this many kids usually and And as soon as I remember remember the Octomom? And I remember that I was like, that's probably comes some issue with that too. so I already was waiting for something to come out about this reality show and this woman. Or maybe I had a feeling. Didn't you have a feeling? I know you didn't watch the show, but I had a feeling. And this is just proves that my feeling was right. no normal person Their family in front of a camera like that for years and isn't vindictive or calculating or messed up in the head to be okay with this. I don't care how much money they give you. Sometimes, like money doesn't matter to some parents. I was like, I don't want to put my kids out there, right? It's our personal privacy. I don't want to me this to be a spectacle. She looked for a spectacle. This is a lady that was looking for opportunity. and when Colin was endangering that her opportunity she she struck. She you know, put him in a dungeon, zip tied him, got him institutionalized, made everybody think that he was crazy. I can't control him because he's crazy. I expected this and I don't know if it's just less like a self fulfilling prophecy, but yeah, I expected this. I knew she was probably hiding something and this was it. Back to you. Lisa: Yeah, I just wanna say that we've actually have come a long way because we can look back at reality T V and see like, this is a toxic behavior. I I've noticed that in all these old you know, these older reality TV shows, we watch it and it think it's entertaining, but now we see it and we go, That's so toxic. Why It did not o even occur to us at that time. And I remember watching like clips of like the Jessica Simpson show, was it? The Newlyweds, right? So Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: they're clips of like Nick being so rude to her and he's and it's so toxic. And then we we see it now and we're like, that's that's really rude. Like why why is he just talking like that to her? But in hindsight, we like, she's she doesn't know the difference between chicken and tuna, how funny. But now we go the way he talks to her is so condescending and Ken: But there's but there's also that aspect of if this is a reality show and we kinda knew that in reality shows it's not really as real as we think. We we know they refilm things and we know they try to reframe things and do takes on so it's not really real, is it? Maybe in the beginning on the first take it's real, but when they redo things and as we I I meant I mentioned Gordon Ramsay in the British shows, he doesn't cuss as much as they do. But you know what sells in American television. This is what sells. So I could just see Lisa: Yes, but one thing you can't retake is people's reaction and people's facial expressions because Ken: Mm-hmm. Unless they're a really good actor. Lisa: when you see Kate emasculating, John stop breathing and the way you see the look on his face and you see the the look on the kids, especially little Colin's face and how sad he is and how miserable he is. We see it now. So I'm just letting you know. Certain things are true, certain things are not. But we can call out toxicity. Ken: Mm-hmm. Lisa: We have the language for it now. And that's why we're able to just put it on blast. That's all I have to say. Ken: sure this is not the last time we talk about this topic. Lisa: Right. Ken: Or at least about Kate even. So I think this is just the start of, things unraveling, things coming up to the surface. I'm pretty sure she might do damage control much more so. I know she's she's gives some some responses, but eventually I think she's gonna be out there and, try to do damage control much more so. That's gonna give us more material. Lisa: Yeah, pretty much. I think that's a wrap for this episode. So it'll be a two episodes, obviously. Ken: Mm-hmm. So anything new happen, Lisa? Lisa: Yeah, actually, you know what? I wanna end this with a warning to abusive parents. So I know you don't think children will grow up and you don't think that they'll hold you accountable for all the shit that you put them through. But guess what? Kids they grow up and they will tell their stories. And I am fucking here for it and I have the fucking popcorn ready. So be warned, okay? And no I don't think abusive parents are listening to this but I just wanted to put that out there. If this is a day of reckoning, the chickens are coming home to roost, as they say, and we have the language for it. we know the psychology now. And whatever you did, you will be held accountable. And that's all I want to say. And I just cannot wait. Ken: That's a that's quite a threat, Lisa. Lisa: Is not a threat. Is it a threat? Ken: No, it's a promise. Yeah. Yeah, so Lisa: Okay, it's a promise. I promise you. I promise you. what's done in the dark will always come to light, right? Isn't that what the Bible says? Ken: unfortunately people that po sometimes pound the Bible doesn't read it with enough clarity sometimes. It's like people are just not self aware, are they? 'cause n bring this up. apparently Kate was religious. You know, you know, she has sin for beating her son Lisa: Yeah, Ken: and putting him in a frickin' dungeon. Lisa: yeah, yeah. She's loving her enemies and turning the other cheek. Uh-huh. Ken: Apparently sh that that that allows her to sleep at night. So, What a piece of work. Well, also what they one of our listeners reached out to us, said that she really liked one of the episodes that really allowed her to, be more cognizant of something. Like sh she mentioned our birthday episode and it really applied to her situ her and situation. So she knows who she is and shout out to her. I hope you get it all worked out. I'm glad that what we talked about really resonated with someone. So I thought I just put that in there. Lisa: Yep. Yep. So we'll just call it a wrap for tonight. And thank you guys for listening to all this. And hope this helps you out. Ken: And if you have your story to tell, don't feel afraid to tell it, especially if you're an adult. Lisa: yeah. Ken: That being yeah, that being said, well see you next time, everyone. Lisa: see you next time. Bye. Ken: Hit the music.