Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to Don't Quote Us On This, the podcast about branding.

Speaker 1: marketing and the BS in between.

Speaker 2: I'm run strategist Nick Mooney and I'm

Speaker 1: strategist Rowena Wilding. And if you're looking for a polished, professional podcast, chock-full of value-add tips and industry insight,

Speaker 2: Well, you probably need to go somewhere else. What you'll get here is two mates getting a bit animated about the things that light us up and hopefully in the process keeping you entertained and imparting some wisdom.

Speaker 1: and the things that piss us off. Thanks for joining us and remember, don't quote this.

Speaker 2: to some.

Rowena Wilding: Hello and welcome to episode 13 of Don't Quote Us On This. Lucky number 13. yes, lucky lucky. This week our topic is why the fuck does it feel so hard right now? And this is, yeah. It does feel hard right now, doesn't it? I feel like a lot of the conversations. with people at the moment are people going what what just it's working anymore. What's the past six months been about? No idea it is it has been really it's just been slowly getting worse and worse and worse. Yeah I think a lot of people came into 2026 going it can't be as bad as 2025 things are going to start to pick up. This is our year. This is our year. And it feels like 2026 took a baseball bat to us. It really did. And it's a slow one though. Just a tap it. Yeah. like it's been Chinese water torture. Drip, drip, drip. Okay. But look, there are some real reasons why this year has felt heavy, why things feel hard and The good news is there are solutions to a lot of them. So I thought we could run three or four of the reasons people are finding it so hard right now. And what they're finding hard. And then maybe we can talk about some of the ways you can fix it. Sounds good to me. So the first one that springs to my mind, we've touched on this before in other episodes. We are bang slap in the middle of a trust recession. are. It is so, so much harder to win clients than it was two years ago because well, it's saturated, isn't it? It is saturated, but to put it bluntly, people have been exploited. Yeah. People have been exploited for too long. There have been too many scam artists. There have been too many get rich quick schemes. There have been too many of these courses that promise the world and deliver absolutely nothing and the result has been people have spent their hard-earned cash hoping for a silver bullet not gotten any kind of results from it and now when it comes to investing in their business they're far more reticent they're far more cautious and so for those of us who do actually deliver decent results. It's really really hard. are having to work four times as hard to convince people to get people to a place where they trust us and they want to buy from us. And if you think about the funnel, no, like, trust, that's what's happening. We're all doing fine at the top of funnel. Yeah, know, we're all doing the things. Yeah, we're doing the work and bringing new people into our audience. Lots of us are doing great work in building relationships and getting people to like us, but when it comes to that trust, when it comes to that, yes, I'm gonna hand over my money, it's taking longer and longer and longer. There is like a massive, like, and you've noticed it as well, there's a huge gap between like you say last year or at beginning of last year, people, you get that people are coming into your world or whatever, you make relationships with them. and then they buy pretty quickly, not, you know, it was like, yeah, I'm in. But now it's like- Sales cycles are long, right? Yeah, and also it's the, yes, I'm gonna think about it, yes, I'm gonna think about it, or yes, I'm gonna go ahead with it, but not right now, or yes, I'm you know, there's constant, well, it's just taking a lot, lot longer. When it comes to trying to help this, there are things we can do. Part of the reason, this has happened, I think, is that lots of marketers started telling people, don't give away your value for free. A lot of the advice over the past two years has been stop giving stuff for free, stop giving people the answer. And I totally understand that. And there have been times where I've said to people, you're giving, too much away for free. But at a time when it's getting harder and harder for people to trust, constantly creating content or constantly using your top and middle of funnel to talk about symptoms and then vaguely say, have the solution without demonstrating credibility or expertise, without giving any value first, that's going to elongate that journey. that's going to make it take longer for people to trust you. I firmly believe that if you want to generate £2,000 worth of revenue, what you need to do is generate £2,000 worth of value. So you have to constantly be dripping that value out there so that when you do launch this thing, that's 2000 pounds worth of value, they believe. They trust you. believe the value. Yeah, it's trust. And I think that a lot of people in their marketing have swung heavily towards sales or heavily towards that kind of relatability, this is me, find out about me, like every day, get to know me. Yeah, the personal, yeah. Yeah, they're not doing that value drop, they're not doing that trust building. And it all goes back to, didn't we just say in our last episode, all these, there's all these people talking about nurture is dead. Marketing is dead, is dead, nurture if you're saying nurture is dead, you're the kind of person who's literally saying you don't need to build trust. Which really says a lot because if they're this kind of people who's saying that then it's exploiting people because they just want that initial, you know, sale and then move on, sale and then move on. They don't really care about building relationships. So this is why we're in a trust recession exactly. That's why we're in a trust recession So we are in a trust recession. There's no point pretending otherwise There's no point pretending that it's going to change anytime soon the answer for me at least is to spend more time on nurture to spend more time delivering value and Demonstrating that you can do what you say you can do. Yeah, I think as well. It's the shocking amount of people doing the same thing and offering the same thing. And you don't know, like people do not know who to choose to work with. And again, it comes back that there's so many people doing the same thing and offering the same thing that, we're seeing, even I hate going on social media because it's just inundated with people offering branding and personal branding, marketing and all these things. And you are, you're kind of like, I don't know who to work with. So again, it comes back to this. Just keep drip feeding your value, your knowledge, your personality as well, that's important, but in a way that you are like... Delivering something. Yeah, it's, you know, and people are gonna be building, yeah. Building their trust. I think that's just, for me, it's something that's massive at the minute. I agree. too many, too much going on. Too many people. is so hard. Well, that's saturation, yeah. Saturation. That's why I... came up with create your own category, the course that I run, for exactly that reason. So basically all of the market is saturated, no matter what you do. So finding a way of creating an entirely new category for what you do, it's a way of, I suppose, it's not quite niching. It's demonstrating what you do in a different way. It's understanding the problem. with a lens that shows your solution is the only solution. And that's kind of how I work with my clients. I help them to create a category that they can own. So they're able to step up and out of that level of competition. Yeah, the sort of standard, yeah, I know what you mean. It's really pinpointing that core problem and turning that into their own category, their own. and our identity as well and all that stuff that comes with it. Which is I guess the flip side of what you do. You create these totally unique brands which again is the visual representation of this is how you stand out, this is how you set yourself you communicate all these things visually so you can talk about it talk about it but you need the visuals to back it up because people aren't. necessarily reading. Your brand looks exactly the same as everybody else's in the feed. If you're going to events and your business card is basically identical to six others, there's sort of no point. No. Okay, why else does it feel so hard right now? Well, political landscape, that's another one. Things happening in the world, that's just... Absolutely. Yeah. Fucking awful. It's awful. It's hard sometimes just to get out of fucking bed in the Yeah, I'm going to be honest. I do not like reading the news. I know you're like very good at this. I just I find it so so depressing. It is, yeah. It's and it's like, oh my God, yeah. I have spent most of June. So obviously this this podcast episode will go out sometime in July. At time of recording, it's the end of June and I have spent days and days worth this month writing letters and appearing on panels and lobbying because the Warwickshire County councillor has banned Pride displays in Warwickshire libraries. It's also happening in Staffordshire. It's also happening in Derbyshire. the Reform Party are trying to roll back all EDI measures, they're trying to defund pride, they are making it extraordinarily difficult for LGBTQ people and my community right now. So when I think about the fact that yes, business feels hard at the moment and then couple that with the amount of time and energy and pain. that I am having to spend on just ensuring that my rights aren't removed from it. and everybody, know, it's yeah everybody and there's like so many people who are experiencing it. I mean know people who work in the council and they're not even allowed to say if gay or whatever it's you know it's absolutely... It's a, it feels really oppressive. It's always like we're moving back 30 years like... I've said a number of times this month, this Pride month, this is probably the first time in my adult life that I've ever felt unsafe in terms of my sexuality. Probably as a teenager, a time when Section 28 was still the case. was 15 when Section 28 was repealed. But yeah. As an adult, this is the first time in my life where I no longer feel safe in my community. I no longer feel able to divulge my sexuality around. It's awful. I just can't, you know. And this was always going happen as soon as the flags went up. As soon as the England flags went up on the lampposts. And it's taken such a journey just to get to this point for, you know, that community and everybody. And then now it's... Well, it's fucking depressing. It is, it is because as I say, as soon as the flags went up, that wasn't my community. was the seekers. That was the immigrant community. But as we know they come for one and they don't stop there. And if we don't speak out about it, it will continue. And that's what's happening. It started off with immigration, now it's LGBTQ. It will continue, it will continue into disability, will continue into neurodiversity, every minor thing. Even being a woman in like the reform party. It'll be women's rights. Yeah, everything, it's just we're going fucking backwards. Yeah, and ordinarily you would get a massive rant from me and it would be impassioned. and you would enjoy listening to it but I'll be honest guys I'm really fucking tired I'm tired because it feels like I've been fighting this for a year now it feels like all it's doing is getting worse and people I love and care about support it I know but it makes me wonder do they even know what they're supporting this is what I genuinely do not think they know or understand what they're actually supporting. Or just not important enough. Yeah, or it's not important. Yeah, it's not something that they have to think about. Yeah. So, yes, we're in a trust recession. And then on top of that, the political landscape is a pile of dog shit. Let's not forget, you know, war. That's what I the state and the world itself as well. Genocide going on. not even to mention what's going on in America. So, yeah. it's the political landscape is an absolute dumpster fire then on top of that like we're heading into the summer we're coming up to the end of term exams school moving yeah all the kids stuff yeah so much with the kids so much with like getting things ready for holidays and winding down like your business hoping you know you've got enough to last through the summer. And I do think a lot of people get to this point in June, late June, early July and they go oh fuck there's not gonna be any business around during August like what am I gonna do and they either choose to hibernate and do absolutely nothing which creates the anxiety of am I gonna have enough money. Then come September they're like panic. Or they work super, super, super, super hard and do all of the things and burn themselves out and then get to the end of the summer and go, my God, where did my Yeah, and I wish I'd just spent more time with the kids and done this instead. that is really, both options are not the right option. Both options are very difficult roads to walk. The reality is one of the things that makes it feel so hard is when you are trying to do too many things because you don't know what you're doing. You're trying to do all the things because you hope one of them will work and generate something. And we have given you the answer to this. Yes we have. Week after week after week the answer is have a fucking strategy. The answer is to sit down and understand what does and doesn't work for your business. There is business out there in August, there absolutely is. If you don't panic... And if you get really strategic about your lead gen, you can be absolutely fine during July and August. It doesn't have to be a problem. Most people build it up in their heads and get more anxious than they need But I mean, part of the reason I think we put in demand by design in the middle of July was so that people had this opportunity to put their funnel. in place. Just get clear on everything about the business, their goals, what they do, it's for. Just being, having that clarity. Going out there with confidence. And then going and talking about it in the right way to the right people. And then like you say, know, nurturing those relationships, bringing them in top of funnel. Yeah. Moving them through. Yeah. And absolutely spending that time on your marketing works, but that's not all. The other thing is spending time on your business as a CEO. That's going to hugely help when things feel really hard, when you are finding it hard to win clients, when sales aren't going as well as you want them to. A kind of natural response to that is to retreat and retreat and retreat. And actually what you... what a better thing to do would be is take more time acting like a CEO, taking the personal away from it, not taking it personally that sales are going badly and instead looking at the numbers, getting curious about what clients are doing instead, potentially re-looking at your offers and saying, okay, if this isn't working, what else can I do? And what's worked in the past, what's, you I mean, I think I spent not last summer, so before, because I had no work. Yeah. And I actually spent refining all my processes, getting everything so it was like flowing better. Just stepping back and not panicking about having no money, because I was like, yes, I could have no money now and I could do all the work, like try and try and get in panic or I put stuff in place and then. It's not if your customers a better experience exactly and it changed everything like literally come September and everything was in place. It was it was so much easier. I had more time to spend on the stuff I enjoy doing rather than the stuff I didn't. Yeah. And it was yeah, it was but I had to take a step back and look at everything and go where where do we bring the most money in? What isn't working? Yeah. You know, and then I did implement it on. Earlier this week I had an amazing strategy day with a client who is a copywriter who basically came to the call and said I know that my business isn't viable going forward I know that copywriting is basically obsolete as a service now because of AI and I don't think necessarily it's going to be obsolete forever But certainly right now, if you're a copywriter, it's a hard... It's a hard You hear that word and it's like, well, I can do my own or Chachi BT can do it or Claude or whatever you use. So we spent the entire session working on her proposition, we completely reworked what she did and we came out the other side with a whole new identity, a whole new category that she's now going to go away and own. So if you were a copywriter, like if you what when you were before you were copywriter, were you would you have been anything else or what would you be doing? I think that like up until about three years ago, if you were a good writer, it it opened doors for you. You could do so many different jobs. I think that now AI is where it is and we have decided to use it the way that we have used it. Copywriting is no longer a career that that it's standalone. It's not a standalone career. And I think there are gonna be a lot of copywriters right now who are struggling, immensely struggling, and I think there are a lot of copywriters who are going to hate me for saying this, but I am saying it with love. If you are a copywriter, you need to be thinking long and hard about how you can pivot your career. Into something that is directly attached to an ROI. So if I were a copywriter today, what I would be doing is pivoting towards internal communications. I would be going to businesses and saying, I know how to make you or save you money in your organization. I know how to increase your employee retention. I know how to increase your MPS score. I know how to increase your client satisfaction alongside your employee satisfaction simply by overhauling your internal communication systems. I can break down silos between your different departments. I can ensure seamless communication from top management to middle management to frontline. I can ensure that employees are happier and better informed. And that will save you money. That if if I were a copywriter, that would be But you are you are to an extent, though, yeah. Yeah, I mean I am a writer. I was a writer first and and and went from writing into bid writing into marketing. I went through that way. what so what other things could you pivot like even niching down and things like that to like being very specific with what Yeah, so I would be if I were a a really excellent long form writer, I would I would just market myself as a ghostwriter. I w I would go to and I would approach, you know, extraordinary founders and say, You need a book. Book. Yeah. And and this is this is how I can create this for you. The last thing any founder wants is to be putting a book out there that's generated by AI. There's nothing that can harm your credibility more than that. So if if they even if you are able to articulate the impact of having a book and it is huge in terms of credibility, you could probably do a really good job of you'd only need one project a year or two projects a year. So yeah, you you could become a ghostwriter for founder books. That would be a way. As I say, internal communications would be a really good one. And the other one that I think again absolutely will be AI resilient is crisis comms. So I would go and and pitch myself as a a crisis comms expert and I would really hone in on here's how to take very, very difficult scenarios and comms them in a way that will protect your brand because again, that is one we've seen examples of it. We've seen examples of it in government, we've seen examples of it in in large corporations where a disaster has has a PR disaster usually, but a disaster has occurred. And the response has been AI generated and it has made it ten times worse. If there is no human being behind it, if there's no empathy behind it, people pick on it, pick up on it immediately. So yeah, if it were me, I 100% would be really niching down into something that you know that as soon as you put AI into it, it damages the credibility. AI cannot come into those scenarios and and not hurt the scenario. those are where humans will always always be needed, or at least for now for for the foreseeable will be needed. so I I would be really targeting into those areas as opposed to calling myself a copywriter. Yeah, I think maybe it's like the the term as well because like as soon as you hear it, you're like, well I'll either write it myself because people want to hear the real you or AI or write it or help me and I don't need to invest in that. And that's the problem, isn't it? It's again it comes down to bit like branding. Yes. I'm gonna do it myself in Galaxy. We all know that AI content is not as good as human content. We know that. But we also know that the reality of the the situation we're living in right now is that people have less money, businesses have less money And writing is the is the one thing or i the first thing that you can say I don't actually need to Or marketing. Yeah. Sorry, writing and marketing and yeah, that g it goes. Yeah, it's the first thing to go. Yeah. So so being able to kind of find resilience in that area is is about really niching down and saying, Okay, but AI can't do these things. Yeah. It's always like the human resources, like a writer for human resources and something like that, maybe or Exactly. If you're in if you're in the HR world, it has to be you can't be human resources and using AI for your for your writing. So it it's really about getting in there and identifying the areas that that have to be human driven. And so if I were a copywriter today, that's what I'd be doing. Yeah. You can't be a generalized You can't just be a copywriter now. That's not a thing. so it feels hard, but there are things you can do. We haven't done this section of the podcast so that you feel depressed. No, we haven't done. We're not trying to make you feel shit, honestly. We have done this section of the podcast because we want you to know that it's not you. It's not you, everybody is feeling it. It's hard right now, it is hard right now, and they're... things you can do that will make it feel easier. And just not try and go for the quick fix. Like, my god, don't think there's a quick fix. Like you need to be out, need to get on stages and talk or I need to do, you know, I need to do this coaching session or whatever. There is no silver bullet, guys. There isn't. There is holding your nerve and consistently going back to this is my audience, this is what they're going through, this is what they need right now. this is what I can offer them. It is constantly going back to who am I speaking to? What do they need? Yeah. And again, like just coming back to the, not panicking and spending money all over the place because you think you need something else. We all do need those things that we do invest in eventually, but I think if you are in this position, it's like stop spending money. Yes, so that brings us neatly to question section of the podcast and the question today came from one of my containers and it was how do I speak to my ideal client? Now I think you've probably got some thoughts on this Nick from a brand perspective. Yes, I mean I It depends what you mean by your ideal client because I don't think well, we have, we have clients who we want to work with, but when we say ideal client, it doesn't really exist, does it? No, I think that the mistake people make is they think about who their audience is and they imagine, for example, self-employed women in one person businesses in, maybe in the wellness field aged between 30 and 50 and suddenly your ideal client is 20,000 people. Yes. And you cannot possibly speak to 20,000 people even in that, which many people would call a niche insanely. Even in that, if you think about people who are 30 women in the wellness area who are 30. those women, some of them might have recently had a newborn baby. You've got so many different people in that. If women in their 50s, those women, their kids are probably already left home. When you are thinking about what hurts them, what keeps them awake at night, you're thinking about that problems are completely different and also there's just so many different personalities and people and needs within that. target market it's not a yeah that's that's it doesn't exist it doesn't it doesn't it's like she drives a Range Rover she earns this much money a year or it's using a fictional character for your ideal client is the first stumbling yeah mistake and I the advice I always always always give is when you are thinking about your ideal client, you are thinking about who you want to speak to or who you're trying to talk to with your visual identity, think of a real fucking human I always think of someone I've worked with who I love working with. I always think of the person I want to work with. Who is a top of my list, absolute dream client right now. What are they going through? What do they need from What do you see then, like their struggle, like what do you notice in there? that they're not doing in their marketing or something. You notice it and if it's a real person, it's so much easier. Exactly, it is so, so, so much easier. And I do generally go, if I've had like a one awesome client who I've loved working with, it's like, and they come to me and I ask them what their problems were, what, you know, I'll get that information from them. And then I'm like, that's what I help them with. That's what I try and... That's who I speak to when I do my marketing or my brand, you know, when I'm going on social media or events or whatever. It's that, that's the person I have in my mind. That's who I'm speaking to when I write my content. So when you're creating someone's visual brand for them, their identity, how do you get from them who is they're trying to talk to? And then how do you... use that information to ensure that their brand is actually targeted to that person. my God. So with my, obviously my brand questionnaire, I have lots of different ways of asking questions. So it's not like who is your target market. It's like who, if you had any previous clients, who do you, who would you love to work with? Who, you know, what, what light swap is like, what would be the perfect work a day? Who would you be working with if it was like, you know, an exciting, like there's those sort of questions. And then how that's translated then is obviously a lot of my work is, is built around the person themselves. But also keeping in mind who their audience is. For instance, a lot of my clients are female founders, so their audience are also female founders generally. So I have a lot of, you know, scope in that I can be quite creative and it's going to be attractive to that audience. But then when you're branding someone whose audience is like more corporate, you know you have to create something that's know, really quite different. Yeah absolutely and like because I've had the experience of working with lots and lots of different audience like I've got with corporate, global finance agencies, I've branded restaurants, I know I understand the difference when I'm creating it. And that's, I think that's something that comes from experience of actually doing it rather than guessing. And I think I'm, so I'm asking because I think we are the cult of the personal brand, which we're going to come onto in a minute. It's huge, right. And I think it's almost swung too far in the direction of it's all about you and your personal brand. Um, and, and because of that, we have forgotten about the nuance of what the audience needs. Absolutely. I think people misunderstand what personal branding is. think so too. It's lost its meaning. Yeah. And now it's like, I'm just going to show you my day and what I have for breakfast and my, I'm here with my, you know, it's very personal. Yeah. It's very personal, which I don't think that's what your personal brand is. I mean, it's part of it. It's getting that insight because we are people. We like that, we like to be nosy, we're curious. But a lot of your personal brand is how your brand reflects your personality as well. And how that speaks to the specific people you are trying to bring. attract, which comes down to how you're speaking, your tone of voice, what you're saying. Your values. Yeah, your values, which are one of the most, the biggest things that come across. But again, that comes down to what you're talking about with your brand. alongside it, so are you, know, if you've got really strong values, like you have about pride and things like that, and it's very, very important to you. I know it's like one of your pillars. And so, that's again, it's discovering what that is and incorporating that into your identity, into your brand. It's not necessarily having a brand that... No, I don't have a fucking rainbow in No, exactly. I don't need it. You don't have a rainbow in your brand. That's exactly right. But you talk about it and you're passionate about it and it gives you purpose. And that's how, like, when you're talking to your ideal client, your ideal client, like, that's another way to connect with somebody. And all of these pieces fit together. Absolutely. Which is why, Don't quote us on this, but the people who are selling you personal brand they're fucking having Not packages, personal branding as like, I can help you uncover your your personality. And it it's been sold up as personal brand strategy, personal branding, and I think it's just, it is basically just telling you who you are. Yeah. And discovering like everything's about you. And then they're like, now talk about this and incorporate it. some really cool photos. That show who you are. Yeah. But it's, it's, people think they really need it and they do, but it's like, there's nothing at the end of it. Like, can't. It's like, when, when we talk about personal branding and when we talk about random marketing, there are all of these things that fit together. Yeah. And we. between us, we do all of them. All of them, literally all of Yeah, it's like everything that you need. like these personal branders, they're taking the easiest part out of the discovery part. Yeah, they're taking the discovery Discovery. They're helping you do the thinking around who you are and what you want to talk about. How do you want to show up? And they're charging premium prices. for that piece of information, which you could sit down with a fucking marker pen and a notebook and work out for yourself. And those of us who do this kind of work, we just do that bit for free. We do it because we need to know it to do the next bit of our work. I need to know this stuff so I can then translate it and communicate it through their visual identity. I need to know this Through their photography, through the... everything like their clothing, the way they dress is that like is that communicating who they want to be through their visual identity it's like but these people take a tiny bit of that like you said and turn it into and it's a big it's like it's a premium muffler I'm gonna be your you know I'm gonna help you discover who you are and the crazy thing is the people offering it have absolutely no background in brand or marketing. No. They've literally had their own. They've done it themselves. They've literally created their own personal brand and because they've done it for themselves or even they've had it done for them, they now sell it to other people. thousands In fact, sometimes I'm thinking, my God, people are paying them thousands of pounds and I don't even charge that to do that. To do all of it. a visual identity. And that takes me like weeks and I'm like, my God, I know it's something that's lost all meaning now. And especially now, again, coming back to this trust recession and especially coming back to this, like we're going into this era of we're craving like the personality, connection. It's becoming even bigger. People are buying into it more and more of this like, I need to invest in a personal brand before I do. XYZ, I need to invest in this before I do, you know. But a good brander or a good marketer will do that bit for They have to, they can't do their job. I cannot give you a marketing strategy if I don't understand your personal value first, if I don't know your values, your personality, what makes you tick, how you speak. they've gone through this process of doing that with somebody, like say my questionnaire and then me, how I try to get what I get from that. And then they probably pop it into chat GBT and say, go back and then there you go. This is who you are. This is what you need to be doing and how you need to show up. Have photos that look like this. And this is what I do. But I do it as part of this is your, what you should be. I then also got a brand at the end of I got the Pinterest board, great. But then I also got a fucking brand. You actually had an identity created and it was like given to you. Not then you have to go out and. get someone else to do it It's like a... separate thing and it's become bigger than the actual brand itself and but you but when you actually study it which I have you're like this is just what you do yeah before you get to this point like every designer worth their salt is it's my discovery call I have with people before I create their marketing strategy it's just I just feel like that but then there's these big gurus and people who are really well known that people are just drawn, that they have to invest their money in them because they're so big yeah, don't quote us on this. Personal brand is not what you think it is. It's not. It really isn't. anyway. think. There's a few mic drops in We got a bit spicy then didn't we? Oh my god. We the strong feelings about people spending money on that's it. We care because we don't want to see incredible business owners fleeced out of money. we've done absolutely everything we can. A, to keep our prices at a place where Our audience can... our audience can afford it. But then also... We've even come up with offers that enable people who can't afford to work with us to work with us. Like we're so passionate about It's like we know, like we're all doing this stuff ourself. We're navigating everything. We're building businesses. We haven't got loads and loads of money, but I see so many people like I've invested 10 grand here and you're like, my God. don't need to do that much of it is so unnecessary. what is it? What is it called? Hot air, smoke and Lewis? I don't know. Yeah, both of It's just. We care about. It really pisses me Your business, we care about what growth looks like for you and this isn't us saying spend your money with us. No. Not with them. This is us saying. Do it properly. actually look at what you're getting when you spend money, actually look at the output, actually look at who you're going to be afterwards, make sure that this transformation is worth it, make sure that it aligns with your business goals and if you don't know what your business goals are you shouldn't be spending any money. it's upsetting as well because it's like when people they you know people haven't got the money no exactly and and we've said it before we'll say it again we have both turned away clients who we know aren't ready to work yes because we've got the integrity to help protect people yeah we when we know they haven't got the money and they're not ready no and they might be like they're in that that fear thing of like i need to work with you because i need this and it's like You're not actually ready for that yet. don't want people to work with us for FOMO. No. We want people to work with us because they are ready to elevate their they see the value in what, you know, some people have come to me, if I gave them all their branding and stuff, wouldn't use it. Yeah, they wouldn't use it. And I know that. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So that's it for today. Don't quote us on this. We are going to be back. in two weeks time. I hope you join us. Yes, come and listen.