kim: Hello, I'm Kimberly Powell and this is Showbiz Mums, a podcast about mums working in theatre and how they juggle the chaos of parenting plus an eight-show week. We'll cover birth stories, pregnancy and postpartum in the theatre industry and discuss how to maintain a career whilst having kids, or at least trying to. We'll also open up the conversation of job sharing and why that can be beneficial. So join me as we speak to some amazing theatre parents and get some advice on this pretty niche subject matter, but something I'm really passionate about. Kim: There is a trigger warning for this episode. We do discuss eating disorders and body image and Steph talks us through some of her own experience with that. So if you're not ready to listen, please come back another time. ⁓ I absolutely love that conversation with Steph and to find her she is on Instagram at Steph Elsdob or you can find the iris clinic at iris clinic UK. And they also have a podcast I've since listened to every episode ⁓ and strongly recommend it. ⁓ actually think I'm a low-key obsessed with Stef and her co-host both have the softest, spoovist, calm voices. ⁓ But also the subject matter course is ⁓ it's something I would wager large percent of people listening ⁓ or those that have been the industry at some point in their lives ⁓ has had some sort of or maybe disconnection with their bodies and how it is perceived Today I'm speaking to Stephanie Elstob. Stephanie trained at the Central School of Ballet and has appeared in the West End in Oliver and The Bodyguard, as well as Wuthering Heights for Wise Children, Whistle Down the Wind at the Watermill, and Edward Scissorhands for New Adventures. by the industry because sometimes it directly impacts whether we get a job at times not always but there might be some relatable crossover for some people so go and check out their website it's irisclinic.co.uk such a good chat thank you again for being here and I will see you next She's appeared in productions of Kiss Me Kate, Mary Widow, Amadeus in Chichester and LabOM at the Royal Albert Hall, as well as lots of film work including Beauty and the Beast and The Avengers. Most recently, she was dance captain in the National Theatre's production of The Ballet Shoes. Stephanie is also the co-founder of Iris Clinic, a clinic specifically for performers and creatives who struggle with their relationship with food or their bodies. I can't wait to get chatting as she's managed to do two international tours with her little one and her husband, who's also a performer. So hi, Esteff, thanks for joining me today. I'm excited to talk to someone whose partner is also in the industry and you're both doing it at the same time. Steph: Yeah. ⁓ Yeah, yeah, it's always ⁓ the juggle struggle, but hey, we survive. I'm still living. He's still living. Kim: interesting. Juggle struggle, all that matters. How old is your son now? Steph: He's four and a half, so he starts school in September, which just is mad to say. Kim: Okay. Yeah, mad. ⁓ And where did you and your partner meet? Steph: We actually met in the Shakespeare pub next to Sadler's Wells. So we were going to go see a mutual friend in Rombe. Didn't know each other at all. He'd been workshopping Swan Lake for MacBourne. I was just going to the pub to meet a friend before the show. And then we were all sat on the same table and I was like, ⁓ he's really handsome. And I didn't really speak for the rest of the evening, really. You know, as you do. But yeah, so it wasn't through work. We have since worked together. Kim: Yeah, of course. Steph: but it wasn't through a... Kim: So he's the dancer, primarily. Steph: Yeah, so he was a musical theatre boy and then he worked for Matt Bourne for a long time on and off. But now he's gone more into creative and production and yeah, still working with Matt. So he's Matt's associate choreographer and Oliver now. Kim: Right, great. Cool. Okay, so ⁓ how did work when you guys ⁓ were trying a baby? ⁓ How were discussions around that? Steph: Yeah. To be honest, I remember saying before we started trying, I feel like I just need to get this dream, like not even a dream job. I need to get a job where I can be in the West End, know I can get maternity and figure it out. Obviously that's like the pipe dream and it didn't quite happen like that. And we were coming out the back end of COVID and I think I was so scared to like interrupt a career that seemed to be on this, like a slight roll. And then COVID kind of did it for us. So it took the decision away. things were just coming out of COVID. I had been teaching quite a lot and we just started trying. We were like, listen, it could take a long time. We knew people who it did take a long time for. We were so lucky. It was very quick. think it was maybe two months in and we were like, oh, okay. And so yeah, I feel like. Kim: Yeah. Steph: I just got to a place where I could accept what I did in my career was enough, if that was the end and that was okay. And he was in a place where he had lovely connections and he was able to keep rolling with beautiful work. And then I could figure it out. So I felt kind of a nice, safe and calm moment, I think just sort of appeared. Kim: Yeah. That's amazing, how lovely. And how was your pregnancy on the whole? Steph: I have to say, I loved being pregnant and from someone who, as we'll probably discuss at some point, really struggled with body image and all that stuff coming from ballet school, I loved being pregnant. I'd never said out loud, I'm so proud of my body. it was just doing this magical thing without me having to control it in any way, shape or form. And I just find it mind blowing, looking at the apps and it saying what was happening within my body each week and just being like, God, I've... I didn't need to micromanage this for this whole time. I did love being pregnant and feeling my body just do this magical thing. Kim: Yeah, it's a good point. I don't feel like I've ever been as body confident as when I was pregnant. And I like loved my bump, like really loved my bump. And even like on the beach, not that I'm ever really thinking about it, but when I was pregnant, I was like, yeah, look at my bump. I feel so great. Yeah, it is a good point. And I think it can go one of two ways. I know a lot of people in pregnancy go the absolute polar opposite and I appreciate that too. But yeah, your body's just doing it for you, doing the work. That's amazing. So were you working at the time of pregnancy? Steph: ⁓ You are- Yeah. I was, no actually, I was teaching up until we found out. then, I did little bits of teaching during the pregnancy, but not heaps and heaps. And ⁓ I I don't even know how or why I was able to sort of afford that now thinking about it. ⁓ I had some coaching going on where I could be online and see clients and not say anything. ⁓ I created a couple of workshops because it was coming out of the backend of COVID where, Suddenly everything was filmed, all classes were going online and everything was just a bit in your face in terms of exposure. So I created this workshop called the Safe Space where I got in creatives that I love to teach and there was not a camera in sight, were like affirmations stuck around the room and just, I just wanted people to come and have a space where they could dance again without any fear of like, I have to have my eyeliner, have to have my ladookas, I have to have this, like just come and just, we've all been in this trauma together. Kim: Be. Steph: just come and play. So those kind of ticked me over as well creatively a little bit. Kim: Wow. What an amazing idea. ⁓ Like what a thing to create. yeah, ⁓ well, I get afraid. mean, I've not been to class for, I mean, years, ⁓ but ⁓ I afraid class now because I just think, ⁓ God, everyone's gonna be filming it. ⁓ And like you there are dookers, the hair, the makeup. nice. Brilliant. Yeah. Steph: My thanks. Yeah, totally. a lot. It's a lot to contend with when you just want to go and practice your craft. Like, I have to admit, I haven't been to an open class for a long, long time. It's only really if I find a teacher that I really feel is going to get ⁓ like, ⁓ know, I feel as we get older, I don't want to be in those rooms where I feel the judgment and feel fear. I just don't want that. ⁓ Kim: Yeah, no, totally, I totally agree. Yeah, ⁓ how nice, but in a way then you were able to kind of enjoy the pregnancy, I suppose, great, and how was your birth? Steph: I'm Yeah So relaxed. ⁓ I was listening to an episode with Katie and I think there's a few similarities. Like it was 52 hours from Waters breaking until him coming out via emergency C-section. And I just, I know I have a high pain threshold and I just remember getting to the point of being like, I cannot do this. I was the person who like, I had the, like a mood board on the wall of like all these quotes and all this stuff. And I remember just thinking, Kim: Ew. Yeah. Steph: I can do anything for a minute every time I was in a contraction. And then I basically, I got stuck. I didn't dilate at all. And they put me on this oxytocin drip. And again, me being like a hopeless optimist was like, oxytocin is like the love drug, like great, I'm gonna feel amazing. And it just spiked the contractions. Like it was horrendous. You know, when you see the chart, like they just didn't come down. It was just constant. And I remember Kim: You Steph: going to the toilet before I had the catheter in and just seeing Sam like wheel this thing with loads of wires attached to it just being like, this is awful. I was like, please get the mood board down. That's a load of crap. Like, and I totally am all about that in normal life. I was like, get it down. It's rubbish. And then, yeah, just, just yeah, lived in a pain bubble for a while. had a great anesthetist who was, he was like King Julian from Madagascar. Like he was this little Indian man and he was so funny. And Sam was like, I do not want to let this man near my wife's back with that needle. ⁓ But luckily I didn't it. I obviously didn't see him. But he ended up being in ⁓ theater with us at head of the bed. And he was like, he was just brilliant. He was comedy gold. And I think ⁓ having someone to distract I was like adrenaline shaking on the table was So brilliant. ⁓ But yeah, listen, everyone's got their story. I feel like I know people who've had similar slightly traumatic situations that have been long. ⁓ And I can say like I came away. Yes, it was horrible. I can't imagine what Sam saw as well. You know, I just, ⁓ maybe we think of it from the man's side so much, but ⁓ like, It's our story. We got this beautiful boy out of it and I'm so lucky and like grateful that we had what we had essentially at the hospital and stuff. Kim: Yeah, ⁓ god, you make a good point though about dancers at a pain threshold. Not only, you're a ballet dancer as well, you it's like you know pain, you can push through a lot. And there is an element of that where you're like, this is, when it comes to birth, like it just, it's like a level playing field, you're like, can't, this is, Steph: Yeah. Kim: ridiculous. ⁓ Steph: Yeah, I remember someone coming in, like we were in there so long that we had midwife after midwife just rotating and I couldn't have told you who was in the room. And at one point she's like, people come back in four hours. And I remember at that point being like, sorry, four hours. I'd be like, no, I can't do another four hours of this. And like you say, like we can get through some stuff, but no, that's what I was like. And I think they said, try and sleep, try and relax. I was like, are you serious? is no relax. about this situation right now. ⁓ Kim: I remember that. Try and get some rest, try and sleep. Cheers hun, will do. Yeah, ridiculous. ⁓ god. Okay, so then recovering from your C-section, how did that go? Steph: ⁓ yeah, I, again, similar to Katie, I think we were in our own room quite quickly. We were very lucky. And that next day, so I had ref at like 6.15 in the morning. A hours later, was like, I can't stay lying on this bed. And I think I got Sam to help me sit up and move to a chair and the nurse coming in and be like, what are you doing? And I said, I just wanted to get up. And she's like, okay, okay. Like, I think they must be like, are you crazy? And you'll like, I can't, because if I don't start trying, I'm just going to end up lying there and just, I don't know what, I don't know what. I think it's just not in our nature to be really still for a long period of time. And then all that stuff about don't go up the stairs, don't like make a den downstairs. like, I was up to our room, like straight away, which in hindsight, maybe I shouldn't have done. But I think taking Raph out for walks attached to me was like the best thing. And you know, like just getting outside. Kim: Totally. Steph: I definitely didn't wait the two weeks to do any of that stuff that I should have done. ⁓ Yeah. Again, it was pain like I'd never experienced, like muscle pain we can deal with, but you sort of forget like how serious an operation it is, how many layers have been put into. And when you can't even sit up, which is something we just take for granted, then having to roll on your side to then sit up is like, it's just a whole new learning curve. yeah. Kim: Yeah. Yeah, it is the physical side of it, but also the mental side of kind of going through that whole experience, the birth trauma, and then coming home and being like, I can't go upstairs. I remember thinking, I wanna go for walks, I wanna go out, like I want to be out in the outside world. But also you kind of, the cocoon thing is a bit like, well, I don't know how sleep was for you. Steph: Yeah. Kim: ⁓ How was it for you? Steph: Yeah, I think just that thing of any single sound, you'd be like, what is it? What can I do? What can I fix? And I think the best thing someone said was, sit in your hands. Like, just sit on your hands. If they need something, they'll keep crying. They'll keep letting you know. Not that I wanted them to scream forever, but you know, it might just be that he's making a noise in his sleep. And that, I mean, it took a few weeks for me to get to that point, but just that being on high alert at all times. And also Sam was in rehearsals for a show at the time. Kim: Yeah. Yeah. Steph: He was in rehearsals for Wuthering Heights, actually, with Emma Wright. ⁓ So he was like getting up and going out. And I just remember crying like I've never cried before. He'd come and say bye. And it just been this like guttural, like hormonal cry. like, ⁓ I don't know. OK, I don't know if I'll survive this day, but I think I'll try. I think and we were lucky and my parents were down for the first two weeks of Ref's life. But yeah, they like... Kim: Okay. Wow. Yeah. How lovely. Steph: I just remember seeing my mum come into my room and like taking washing out of my laundry basket and just thinking, I love you so much. I'm so grateful. Yeah, just a blurry cloud, isn't it? ⁓ Kim: ⁓ completely, it is. It's a blurry clap. Especially with him, with Sam going out to work as well. I think that's the bit when you, and your parents gone back, the first bit when you're by yourself and you're like, okay, we're doing this then. Like, yeah. Steph: ⁓ my God, Yeah, my parents actually left the day the health visitor came for the two week check or the 10 day check or something. And I was just crying and she said, are you okay? And I was so scared. She was going to think that I had something wrong or that I had postnatal depression or not that there's anything wrong with that, but I was so nervous she was going to put a label on me. That wasn't true. I was just scared of my parents leaving, honestly. And I feel like you think that Kim: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Steph: The world should have shifted in some way when you step outside with this brand new thing that you're protecting with your life. And it's just the same and it feels like everything's different shade and everything's... I don't know, it feels like the air's different but nothing else has changed. Kim: Totally. That is the perfect description. No one's ever said it like that. That's exactly how me and husband, we both felt it. It was like everything had shifted. but ⁓ it's like the world has kept turning and everyone's going about their day, like, but we've got a We've got a fresh new, and yeah, ⁓ everything in that moment. You're like, I remember my parents coming over and my mum, they bought champagne and mum went, Jordan, top up. did this, top up. ⁓ Steph: Yeah. Kim: And he was literally like such a space cadet at the time. He was like, yeah, okay. Because they were just like, we're here for champagne, wet the baby's head. Whereas we were like, everything is different now. Like, sounds ridiculous, but yeah. Steph: Yeah, we're in survival mode. It's not champagne time! Kim: Yeah, I mean, I was like, I'm here for the celebration, but like I've had maybe half an hour sleep. Well, in the beginning, we didn't anyway, because we had to just hold her and all that stuff. yeah, it's the vulnerability, isn't it? And the hormones, I remember Jordan bought me a mug that said like best mummy ever. It'd like four days of being a mum. And I smashed it by accident. And I just remember like sobbing. And I don't feel like I'm much of a cryer. Steph: Yeah. Yeah. Kim: Okay, that's... must be the... what is it, Baby What do they call it? The thing on like day four when your milk comes in, you know, and they're like, it's really... the emotions are high, ⁓ anyway, ⁓ mad. ⁓ he's how was he ⁓ doing that job for? Steph: Yeah. quite a while. So he actually went on tour with it. he went to Bristol with it quite soon after rehearsals. Like that was their first venue after rehearsals. ⁓ ⁓ and Raph went to Bristol when Raph was like nine weeks just to be with Blipstab. And now again, I'm like, are you mad? Like he was so tiny. ⁓ I think ⁓ is no rule book. You just don't know. You just try and hope, right? ⁓ Kim: Yeah, ⁓ god. No! Steph: Yeah, madness. Kim: I love that. again, they're a bit more portable at that age anyway, because it's hard for you. I think it's toughest on you or the primary caregiver, but ultimately the baby, you're like, well, I'll take you with a bit like Lauren Hall. She's like, you know, in the first year, you can kind of do anything, ⁓ within reason. ⁓ yeah, ⁓ don't know. So how was it? Steph: Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So we literally just went to Bristol in that tour and then we challenged that portableness by, I joined the company of Wuthering Heights. ⁓ Essentially because Sam was on it and they wanted him so badly, they wanted to figure out how to make it work. Like, I think this is why I wanted to speak to you essentially because I wanted to share a really good story about a company that have gone like above and beyond when it comes to parents. ⁓ So Wuthering Heights is going to America in five months. Kim: Okay. Steph: And Sam was like, I cannot leave them for five months. Like cannot. And they were like, well, we'll pay for like two sets of flights for them both. And he was like, ⁓ I still don't think I can do it. So then they started talking potentially about a job share with another company member who was pregnant at the time and would give birth something like two months before rehearsals would start. And so I knew immediately, I was like, well, that's not going to be an option. Even though she might be saying yes now, that's not going to happen. but amazing that they were talking about it. And then I ended up going as offstage swing and like, bless them. They just took the biggest punt. They came to see me and whistled down the wind, which was my first show back from, like, I'm going to say mat leave. There was no mat leave, but that was my first show back. They came to see me and then, yeah, I got offered offstage swing. And it was just crazy. were going to like, New York was our first venue with him. Kim: Yeah. Steph: and we were just figured it out. were like, right, we'll... He was 13 months when we went. ⁓ Yeah, so he went for a little holiday with Grandma and Grandad while we were in rehearsals. And I mean, as you probably know from all the hyper and the film currently, Wuthering Heights is just an epic. I was meant to read it for A-level. I didn't necessarily read the whole thing. ⁓ But ⁓ it's like a three hour show. Kim: How old was rough at the time? Okay. it's Steph: chronological order of who is who and who meets who and who dies when. I don't think after our rehearsal they even had my head around, let alone being able to swing the show. And yeah, they were just brilliant. They were like, right, we will pay for all of Raph's visas, all of his flights, all of your accommodation obviously will be separate from the company. You'll have your own apartments everywhere. And then if Steph is on, we'll pay for childcare. And I was like, this is amazing. Like truly, they were so brilliant. Kim: Wow. Steph: with that is that we are... Yeah, so it's now Emma Rice Company, but it was Wise Children when we worked for them. ⁓ They were just from the off, honestly. Couldn't have done more for us to make it work. Kim: So who is the company? it WISE Children? Right. Yeah. Steph: ⁓ But halfway through the tour, lots of stuff happened and I ended up being on every single show. And we a nanny in Chicago who ended up coming with us for the rest of the tour. Cause she was so phenomenal. She just became family. And again, like we just felt so lucky. So, so, so lucky. Yeah. And then we just thought we'd repeat the test really, like ⁓ a couple of years later. ⁓ Kim: ⁓ ⁓ wow. Lastly. Hahaha! Steph: and did the same show in Australia and Asia last year. And at that point we said, I don't think we can make it work because nannies, obviously like a language barrier and stuff is a very different thing. In America, they all speak mostly our language. So slightly easier. And we're like, I'm not sure how that's going to go in like Taiwan and China. I don't know how that's going to be. Kim: Yeah. Steph: And they were like, right, we won't offer you nannies. We will jigsaw. We will pay for a family member to come with you. We'll pay for all their accommodation. And so we were able to jigsaw various family members throughout the tour to come and be in Sydney and Australia or Shanghai or Hong Kong. Like it was unreal. again, so lucky. And yeah, and they actually said to us in an email at some point, cause we were really back and forward about it and whether it could work. And also like it's a big ask. Kim: Incredible. Steph: I know it sounds lovely to be like, do you want to come to Sydney with us? But it's a big ask to say to someone, do you want to come to Australia for like a month and a half? Do you want to just step out of your own life and just come and be with us? And we were so lucky that our family did step up to that and were like so grateful. But the company at one point did say like, you're just too valuable for us not to try. And I don't think I've ever, ever heard that phrase in my career ever, let alone around this subject. And yeah. Kim: You Yeah. Steph: We are just beyond grateful to them and so lucky. And there were other parents on the tour too, which is amazing. Kim: This is the best story That is so amazing. That's the best story ever. ⁓ Like that's what like aiming for and ⁓ it shows that can do it. They can do it and you're valuable ⁓ and it shouldn't up on you for any other reason. It's like, yeah, okay, let's do it. Let's make it work. ⁓ God, that's amazing. Also, what an incredible experience to do ⁓ America and Australia Asia ⁓ just to be on a full on international tour. Baby's coming with. What an experience. Steph: Yeah, it is like truly. Yeah. Yeah. like unreal and his little passport is just insane and he's only four and a half and like that needs to be framed because the visas you have in there ⁓ are like off the scale it's amazing and I'm sure he won't remember much of it but we've taken so many photos and videos we've made them into the little photo book so he'll have them forever and yeah and I remember my parents at one point being like are you sure China with a child and I was like I mean I think so I think so Kim: Yeah. Yeah. amazing. Steph: And we obviously had thought about it, but actually it's amazing. There's shopping centers over there. There's a whole floor that is for kids and there's like indoor playgrounds and like, it is amazing. The setup over there. Kim: Amazing. Brilliant. Like you say, Gave it a go and it worked. What was it like on the day-to-day life of it, of actually doing the show and then having him? How did you manage that? Steph: I feel like that part was maybe tougher terms of we were both on the same schedule, so there was no relief, right? So there wasn't like, can hand over to the other person at any point because we were both on the same thing. ⁓ ⁓ think ⁓ really hard to say, isn't it? You just get used to going to bed at midnight or not falling asleep till one and then waking up with him at six and that being normal, and it has to be normal. ⁓ Kim: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Steph: I think we really tried to just prioritize us. So like we missed out on all the socials. There was no social really apart from things that were happening in the hotel once Ref was asleep. Do you know what I mean? Like the end of tour quiz was amazing because it was just downstairs and we could come and have a drink and then go back up. But everything else, you see bonds forming and you're not part of it. And that's sometimes quite hard. then the flip side is... Kim: Yeah. Steph: how lucky are we to have each other and this experience as a family? So yeah, it was exhausting. I think there were points where we were like a three hour show after a very minimal sleep and just almost no transition time from parent to work. Do you know what I mean? Whereas if you're at home, you need to a train journey to do that little reset and change your mindset slightly, which I've just had. But when you're just like from hotel to theater, it's just across the road. You're like. Kim: Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Steph: ⁓ right, we're here, we're in, we're doing it. I just think we managed. If you want something, you figure it out, right? There's something that I say to clients a lot, like, if it's a priority, you make it work, and if it's not, it's an excuse. So we made it work. And there were tears, of course, there was tired, but unreal experiences. Kim: Yeah. That's incredible. It's so good to hear it. That's so amazing. So then coming back home and then starting to work at The National and was your partner away as well? Steph: Yeah. No, so he's been at home. So this is the first time that I've been in a performing job and he's been holding down the thought. He's been doing more producing, again, for New Adventures, the Matt Bournes company. So he's been at home a bit more doing drop-offs and pickups than I got to go and do the beautiful creative thing, which was really strange. And the mum guilt was real, like really real at the beginning, you know. Kim: the thing is they're all temporary aren't they? such ⁓ sometimes short things you're like let's do that see how it goes then ⁓ look towards the next thing and like you say he'll be starting this year and and then that'll be a whole new kettle of fish ⁓ like it's all in Steph: Yeah, yeah exactly. Then there will have to be a shift I'm sure like once he's at school and his routine is paramount then then there will be a shift that has to happen. while it's not there I think we're gonna try and make the most of it. ⁓ Kim: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think you have. I think you've been nailing it. ⁓ it's brilliant. So when you talk about your clients, can you tell us a bit about, I'm just really interested to know about your company, the Iris Clinic. How did that come about? Steph: ⁓ Yeah. Yeah, of course. Yeah. So, ⁓ I sort of touched on earlier, I have my own lived experience with an eating disorder from coming through the ballet sort of pathway and ballet school. ⁓ just before COVID hit, I was working with a brilliant company called Prep Your Rep run by Kayleigh O'Connor. And I was sort of touching on maybe creating a course that involved that world. Kim: Yeah. Steph: And Kayleigh put me in touch with Nadia, who's now the co-founder of the clinic. The course never happened. We were sort of in development, but it never came to anything. And we sort of left it on a shelf for a while. And then we came back to it in 2023, 2024. And we're like, I think this needs to be a thing. we didn't have any help or support that was really tailored to performers or the industry when we were struggling. I still think it's such a taboo subject. People still don't want to talk about it. Schools are still sort of in denial that it's a problem and it is. And there's so many contributing factors. We need to like take one challenge at a time as the clinic of what we can fix. yeah, we both went and trained with the national sense of reading disorders so we could get an actual qualification to coach in recovery. ⁓ yeah, we just... Kim: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Steph: had a baby of a company in Iris Clinic and we've got some amazing clients who have been so brave sharing their stories and deciding to put themselves first and not other people's of ideals. So yeah. Kim: Yeah. incredible. ⁓ so, I mean, know, starting a company, ⁓ a dance captain and having your son ⁓ being there for people. amazing. ⁓ It's interesting that you say about your body in pregnancy then. Yeah, that you did feel. ⁓ fine, or good, ⁓ Steph: Yeah, I really wish I could bottle that feeling up and give it to everyone who has any qualm about their body. I really do because you do get to see it, just do magic without you controlling or micromanaging. It just does its thing. It just takes care of it. And actually I feel the same ⁓ dance in a way. Like ⁓ I push and push and push and I'm desperate for a job or I'm desperate to impress someone, it never really works. If I take my foot off, and let my body do its thing, feel some connection and some joy to what I'm trying to achieve, the results are always going to be better, right? So if I, but, I also don't know if that comes from being a mummy, that perspective shift of, actually my boundaries are in place now. If I can take care of this human, I can negate other stuff. Like other things just become less important, right? Kim: Yeah, yeah, ⁓ absolutely. Steph: Yeah, and I do wish I could bottle that to people who are in the middle of the fight and really in the thick of it and just be like, it's okay. You are allowed to breathe and trust yourself and you as a product, it's totally okay. Like, yeah. Kim: Yeah. Yeah, This industry is... ⁓ there's a lot of it and it doesn't get spoken about properly or like you say in the colleges. we'll link your website at the bottom of this, but just for anyone that wants to know that. Thank you. Thanks for ⁓ coming on telling me about it. Like it's, ⁓ it's all big important things though, isn't it? ⁓ You know, think a bit like Marianne was talking about vocal health, like it's so, ⁓ there's so things in the industry. It's so great. And we love it so much, ⁓ but like a lot of shit ⁓ and like a lot of hard stuff and there's not a great deal of support. Steph: team. Okay. What? Kim: So we kind of have to do it ourselves. think anyone that started something else, it's nice to be able to look to things. new companies that are ⁓ being created. I it, love to see it. Steph: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think particularly like when we're in the world of social media as well, like it's so hard. We had a business coach at the beginning of starting the business. Cause I mean, we knew we wanted to do it. love what we do, but the business side, mean, like we were talking about being a technophobe earlier, like I am not business minded. I do it from my heart. And then I'm like, ⁓ I've lost thousands of pounds because I want to care so much. Like that's not good business. ⁓ but she wanted us to be really on social media and putting ourselves on there and. Kim: No. Yeah. Steph: and transformations and all this stuff. And we're like, it just doesn't feel right. It doesn't feel like that's what we want to be doing as a clinic. And so we're in competition with these PTs who can put, I'm going to fix you in 12 weeks and I'm going to do this with you in this amount of time. And you're going to spend a grand, but you're going to feel great. And then actually they never do because it's the brain that's the issue, not the body always. you know, and yeah, we're sort of battling that at the minute of trying to be Kim: Yeah. Yeah, well, yeah, totally. Steph: seen and found, but without going against what we feel moralistically good about, you know. Kim: Yeah, okay. Totally. Yeah, even, like Instagram, I like the podcast, I like talking and having the conversations. I don't really know how else to get it out there, but I'm not good at Instagram. I hate making the reels. I don't want to be around the kids, I'm on my phone trying to fucking cut a thing, you know what I mean? And so then I'm like, oh God, but I don't really know what else to do. But yeah, it's all that side of things that I'm like, oh no, Steph: Greening. 9. Kim: have the chats with other mums because that's the bit that I'm enjoying but the rest of it I yeah do me a favour but no you're right trying to just be found and get the get the eyes on it sounds great do you oh do you ever got a career highlight is there a moment in your career that you're like oh that was amazing Steph: Yeah. Do I? Do I do I? I think that, can I give you two? Is that alright? I know, show off. So I think the first one was when I did Bodyguard, Kim: Yeah, of course. Yeah. Steph: we opened Bodyguard in Shanghai. and doing the of that show, ⁓ prior to getting that job, I'd been working front of house the Dominion on Bodyguard. So I'd watched it ⁓ so many times, ⁓ so many times. ⁓ like front of was a definite to ⁓ survive London, should we say, instead of thrive. And I just remember watching Kim: ⁓ I love it. Yeah. Yeah, I did Steph: with the best love and the best heart, but my God, was it tough. ⁓ And yeah, I remember opening that and just being like, ⁓ I'm doing the thing that I've watched loads and loads of times. So that was for sure like, ⁓ okay, I'm achieving this moment. And then I think the second would be Wuthering Heights in New York. I ended up through illness ⁓ of someone else going on for the first show. Kim: Yeah, yeah. Steph: in New York and opening Wuthering Heights at St Anne's Warehouse in Brooklyn and just being like, this is nuts. And like I said, still not fully knowing the chronological order of the show and just being like, and that's like my biggest thing is a swing. I love to be like in the skin of the show and really know it. And if I don't, I'm like, who knows? But yeah, like getting to open that in America with Sam, knowing that ref was safe in an apartment with someone like. Kim: Hahahaha ⁓ Steph: was amazing. Kim: That honestly gave me chills. That's incredible. What an amazing career anyway, but yeah, fuck, that's a really good one. ⁓ And do you have- ⁓ I've not given you any time to think about it. Do have a parenting highlight? Like, is there a moment where you're like, ⁓ he did this and it just was amazing? Steph: Yeah. Thanks. ⁓ such an amazing question. ⁓ Such an question. ⁓ There's so, like, obviously I'm biased, but he's amazing. So I'm like running through bit of a Rolodex. I'm like, he's brilliant. And he melts my heart all the time. This is not it, but I came back from judging a competition this weekend ⁓ and him and came to pick me up from the airport. And he's always been super good with words and like, Kim: Yeah. Steph: his vocab is unreal. And he just said to me in the airport, he just went, mommy, family's not a family without you. And I just like, right, well, that's me crying. That's me done. Good, good, good. ⁓ I think maybe a parent in highlight was my first job after having him been at the water mill. And I was associate choreographer to Tom Jackson-Grieves, who again, really went out of his way. Kim: You Yeah. Steph: It's not a big institution, right? It's very people led, heart led and Tom is that as well. ⁓ I think having Raph in our accommodation and him being accepted by the cast and the creatives and like seeing him come to work with mommy and just sitting and looking at all the lights and we were doing a cleaning rehearsal of something and him just sat watching everything. was like, I think I've done a good thing. ⁓ Do you know when you just like, it fits, just, ⁓ it's it's working? I think that might be it. Kim: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. so lovely. That's perfect. Yeah. I I think I've done good. Oh, that's so great. Steph: I I'm alright. Thanks, Kieran. mean, yeah, he's amazing. came to the National actually, and it's the first time he sat through the whole show. So at the National they have a director's box at the back of the stalls, which is really cool. And he sat in there. ⁓ He just, I don't know what it is. I think it's because I've taken him and he's been around creatives. I don't know how you feel about your... Kim: ⁓ well. Steph: little ones being like this but he's so confident around people and like will just chat and he'll hug everyone and he just... he came to watch the show and sat in the director's box. I don't know, I ⁓ like a ⁓ time on Bella Shoes being dance captain. I think it's different when you're working for an institution rather than a people-led smaller company, potentially. But that's probably another conversation for different podcasts on another day. Kim: Yeah. Steph: I found it quite tough and I felt like I almost wanted to parent lots of the company, but it's not my job to, and that was hard. So actually bringing Ref to the theater and seeing him experience this world that I'd been really, really intensely like stuck into was amazing. And he's just hyper confident when he wants to speak to people, he wants to go and tell people what he thought and he wants to have hugs with everyone and... Again, like just seeing him bring joy to other people when that's our job is the best. I don't know how you feel about your little ones if they're similar being around creatives and stuff, but that he's just amazing. And I'm so nervous about like school numbing that out of him in some way. And I really hope it doesn't. I hope they celebrate and allow him to stay curious and ask questions and stuff. ⁓ But yeah, just seeing that now and it's like, Kim: Yeah. Yeah. Totally. Steph: most naive, beautiful form is just amazing. Kim: that's so gorgeous. how lovely. ⁓ great. ⁓ Thank you much. Thanks so much for coming on and sharing your story ⁓ and everything the business as well. really like good luck with it all. ⁓ And I'll be following along and seeing where you will pop to next. ⁓ But and luck with school. Thank you so much. Steph: Yeah. You're so welcome. You're welcome. Thank you. ⁓ Likewise.