kim: Hello, I'm Kimberly Powell and this is Showbiz Mums, a podcast about mums working in theatre and how they juggle the chaos of parenting plus an eight-show week. We'll cover birth stories, pregnancy and postpartum in the theatre industry and discuss how to maintain a career whilst having kids, or at least trying to. We'll also open up the conversation of job sharing and why that can be beneficial. So join me as we speak to some amazing theatre parents and get some advice on this pretty niche subject matter, but something I'm really passionate about. Kim: Thank you so much to Katie. So there you go. If you've just found out you're pregnant and you work in the industry, you know where to turn. Just give Katie Deacon a call. No, no, it's so nice to hear a company being so positive towards a pregnancy. And I love how she gives us the actual details there. It's just really useful, I think. So very grateful for a fun, easy chat with Katie. Thank you so much for listening and we'll see you next week. Today I'm talking to Katie Deacon. Katie trained at Central School of Ballet and has appeared in Swan Lake and The Nutcracker, as well as Katz, Mary Poppins, An American in Paris and On the Town. She's currently swing cover nini in Moulin Rouge after giving birth to her son just one year ago. I've been following her journey going back to work and between having a one year old, working eight shows a week at Moulin Rouge, teaching regularly and studying for a diploma, I'm genuinely wondering where she gets the hours in a day. Katie: you. Kim: So thanks so much for joining me, Katie. How are you today? Katie: I'm alright, thank you for having me. Kim: That's alright. So my question is, when do you sleep? Do you sleep? No, Have you got the show tonight? Katie: ⁓ I don't. I don't. I've not actually, I'm on annual leave for a few days so we've just been to Saltly Hall to visit my husband's family and just came back and I've got a day to myself because he's at nursery so I don't know what to do with myself. Yeah, that's the plan. Kim: Okay. ⁓ great. Well, listen, have a rest. No, great. Okay, so just take us back to how did you feel when you first found out you were pregnant? Were you working you were trying for a baby? Katie: Yes. Yes. So we had been discussing when we were going to start a family for years, to be honest, my husband has been ready for a long time. But obviously, I knew how much it was going to affect my career. So I wasn't sure. There was a point during COVID when we spoke about it. But so much of me was I knew I might have a baby and decide I didn't want to go back to work. And because when I was in Mary Poppins at the time of the COVID shutdown, and because I didn't know I had my last show, I was worried that there would be some part of me that would potentially have a baby and have regrets about not going back or not finishing off things how I wanted. I said, I was like, no, I need to get back on stage before we... decide when that's happening. And then we eventually decided to start trying and I was worried it might take quite a long time might as well get going. Kim: Good for you. Katie: Um, not very long after. we got back from, we were, we were in Cyprus, I think, and I felt a bit funny that week. And then we got back And I remember, I don't know why, I just thought I'd take a pregnancy test. It was probably my, the day of my period was June. Um, and I don't know why I just. Kim: Yeah Katie: did one before I got in the shower and then I got out of the shower and looked at it and there was the tiniest faint line and then I was going, wait, that's not strong enough. That definitely can't be a thing, Googling. False positive on pregnancy test and it's going, there's any indication of a line in there, it's a positive and I was going, oh, okay. Did a couple more, same thing. And then I remember going. Kim: Yeah. Katie: My husband's not going to believe me unless I have one of those ones that says pregnant on it. So I remember going right into the supermarket to get one. then eventually telling him, and then I had to go do a show that night. And that was the most ⁓ feeling in the world, going on stage and ⁓ Kim: Sure. So what show were you in when you found out were pregnant? ⁓ right, okay. Katie: I was in Moulin Rouge at the time, so I was there and then went on maternity leave. And I just remember being on this course in Suspenders. Kim: ⁓ my god. Katie: knowing I was pregnant and also knowing I was about to get chucked around for two and a half hours straight. And yeah, it's funny how psychologically I found that quite difficult actually. Yeah. Kim: Yeah. Absolutely. I think it's funny the moment you find out you're like instantly fragile, even though you're not but it feels like you're like, wait, wait, wait. a fragility there. ⁓ a good though that you say about you know, being aware that your career was still, that's important to you and that you knew you wanted to go back, you didn't want COVID to decide it for you. ⁓ Katie: Yes. Yeah, Hmm. Kim: Especially for as a dancer, I know you're obviously musical theatre, but I think you're the first proper ballet, ballet, dancer I've spoken to. ⁓ And think, there can be an element there that you're like, ⁓ I wanna that I've decided it for me, and then wait and see what happens. Katie: Yeah. Hmm. Yeah, for sure. And I think ⁓ know a lot of people that have chosen not to go back. And I was very aware that I might have a baby and that might be my feelings as well. And so was open to that being an option. ⁓ I just didn't want ⁓ end of my performing to be a decision that I hadn't actively made. Whereas I felt like ⁓ I'd had my son and then decided, you know what, actually, I don't want to go back to the show. ⁓ Kim: Mm-hmm. totally. Katie: there wasn't any pressure to do that at this point in my career. Kim: Yeah, great. So how did it work at Moulin Rouge? Did you tell them about the pregnancy? Katie: I had to tell them quite early on because my husband is a physio, which is really brilliant. So he has good connections with a brilliant women's health physio at his company. And I was just so concerned that something I might do at work could affect the pregnancy. so I know multiple people that have gone through pregnancy loss as well. And I was like, Kim: Thanks Katie: I couldn't cope if something I had actively done that I could have avoided meant that the pregnancy ended. So I sort of spoke to this woman's health physio and I was like, there anything I shouldn't be doing? She worked with a lot of, you know, elite athletes and had seen the show, understood what I had to do. And she sort of said there was one lift where it was really quite tight around the stomach. And then Kim: Mm-hmm. Katie: as a swing there is one ensemble track that does a tiny bit of aerial work so obviously that was going to be a no-go and this one lift was going to be a no-go but being a swing I was like well they're quite low on my priorities so I'm just going to wait and see when they crop up. being double show day at the gym, get a text, someone's gone off, I'm on for the evening show. And it was one of the tracks that does this lift. And thankfully, I'm very good friends with, he's now our resident choreographer, but he was our dance captain at the time. I just picked up the phone and I was like, hey, I've got something I need to tell you. And so basically told him and said, I can't. Kim: You Katie: be doing this lift anymore, especially because I'm corseted as well on top of this lift. And he was like, okay. He was like, tonight we're just going to modify that and you won't do that lift and da da da da da. But he was able to make that call because there were no creatives in the building that day. But he sort of said, he was like, when the resident and the associate are back, we need to talk to them because I can't be modifying the show without their permission. So. I had to tell my associate choreographer and the company manager at, I think I was about seven or eight weeks, so really early on. You know, and I, especially knowing how many people can lose pregnancy so early, I was really worried about being vocal about it so early on. But they were brilliant and kept it so quiet and just sort of discreetly took me off of those priorities. Kim: Yeah, really, Ellie. Amazing. Katie: And so no one else in the building really knew except the dance team and the company manager. And they were brilliant for my whole pregnancy. Anything. They were always like, you know, take it day by day. If you feel like you can't come in, just let us know. That's absolutely fine. And, you know, if you're on the show and you feel uncomfortable, you can come off straight away. And they also never, never tried to put any limits on. Kim: it. ⁓ Katie: what I said I was capable of doing. So if I said I was fine to go on and do a track, they wouldn't go, oh, we don't feel comfortable with you doing that, which was very empowering for me. I ended up performing up until I was six months. Kim: Right. Wow. Katie: which now I think is absolutely bonkers that I did that. ⁓ Kim: Especially in that show, that's the thing isn't it? You're... and a swing, you're just being flung around. My goodness, good for you. Katie: Yeah, so yeah, up until that point, it was only those two things I didn't do in the show. I always said that they were brilliant and they were like, we can reduce your tracks as much as possible. You can literally put on a costume and come on at the ends and bow. And in my head, I'm going, why would I do that when I could be at home on my sofa? But Kim: you Katie: I always said for myself, if I wasn't doing 95 % of the show and feeling like I was doing it to the best of my abilities, I'd rather not and I'd rather let someone else do it, especially as a swing because I knew that the rest of my swing team would then be picking up the pieces isn't the phrase, but if I wasn't doing certain numbers, they'd have to jump in and out of things and I go, it's much easier for everyone if one person is doing a track beginning to end. And so that was just on me. No one was making me feel like that. But yeah, I performed up until I was six months and then, yeah, it was cast change. So good time for me to leave. Yeah. Kim: hood for you. How did you? yeah. So physically in your pregnancy, were you, did you feel sick at all? Anything like that affected you? Katie: It was funny because it was only when I got into my second trimester that I looked back and I realised, ⁓ I did feel quite sick a lot of the time. But it sounds silly, but I feel like before the Can Can every night, you feel a bit sick anyway. So I think that I didn't really realise anything was different. Kim: Yeah, sure. yeah fair enough I get it ⁓ great Katie: Yeah, because we do this 15 minute pre-show where you walk around in slow motion for 15 minutes and then you know that the next thing you're doing is running onto the stage and jumping into the splits so you have 15 minutes to psych yourself out of it to be honest. Kim: Yeah. ⁓ geez, yeah, intense. Great, so, okay, so you went up to six months, and then how was your ⁓ birth? Katie: you Yeah. Very difficult, unfortunately. It's all right. I feel like the more I talk about it, the better it is. For a long time, I couldn't talk about it. But I was in labour for five days and then ended up with an emergency C-section. And there are a couple of things I think contributed to that. One thing is pelvic floor tension. which I don't know about you, but I'd only ever heard of your pelvic floor being weak. And so I never knew that you could have an overactive pelvic floor. But the more more research I've done into it, it really affects a lot of dancers, a lot of gymnasts, a lot of elite athletes that specifically need their core a lot. And also Kim: No. Yeah, I can. OK. Katie: when you're wearing quite tight clothing, you might have felt it subconsciously. But sometimes if you're in something tight, you naturally just brace your core or if you're in something form fitting, hold your stomach in a little bit. And I've done quite a lot of research into this for my diploma now, but it can affect your birth so much. And so I think that was a sort of contributing factor for me. And then also the fact that Kim: Wow. Katie: Unfortunately, at the hospital I wasn't listened to when I went in a couple of times for triage because I seemed to be in inverted commas coping with the pain. So and they, you know, they kept going, is it your first birth? Yes. Have you tried having a bath? Yes. So went out to triage two times basically before I was then admitted on the third day. Kim: for God's sake. ⁓ my god, no. Katie: ⁓ And yeah, quite a traumatic C-section for me and for Baby, but we're both here now and both healthy and that still doesn't take away from the fact that it was a difficult birth, but yeah, he's incredible. Kim: No, no, you're absolutely right. ⁓ he's so gorgeous. And that's the thing, it it all worth it. But then you go, okay, but let's look back. those days so hard. Katie: Yeah. Yeah. Kim: But I'm just I'm so sorry that went through that. And then did you have to stay in the hospital for a while? Katie: That's in it. Not really, to be honest. ⁓ We did this 24 hours that you're supposed to after a C-section, but me being me, after about five or six hours, I was like, get this catheter out, I need to be up and about walking and da da da da. Yeah, looking back, I think I probably should have stayed there longer, but I think that was also just a little bit of the trauma and wanting to get out of the hospital environment. But we were, yeah, we were desperate to go. Kim: Yeah, God, especially C-section as well. Holy cow. you just like, get me out of here. Get me out of here. No, I think that's fair enough. and how was the first kind of postpartum period that first like three months? Katie: ⁓ It was a challenge for sure. My mum thankfully came to stay with us for a bit. She had been planning to come and help anyway ⁓ because my husband is self-employed as well so there's basically no such thing as paternity leave for him. So he had about two and half weeks off and so then obviously when I had the C-section and they're going Okay, so, you know, don't pick up anything heavier than your baby. Don't do this. And I'm going, ⁓ how am I going to do that if I'm on my own? Silly things like we didn't think when we bought this house, but I've got stairs out of my front door up to the pavement. And I was going, ⁓ how do I lift the pram up there if I, you know, can't lift anything? So my mum came to stay with us for six weeks, which was very needed because it was Kim: Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ it's all stuff like that. Great. Katie: a really tough time at the beginning. Kim: God, did he sleep much? Katie: first couple of weeks were okay and then we actually ended up having quite a lot of feeding problems. I struggled with breastfeeding, wasn't producing enough and again looking back into birth trauma and stuff, I feel like that affects it so much more than we realise. I didn't have him for skin-skin for a while and then because he'd had to be intubated during birth they then have to do all these... glucose test. So then they were going, okay, you need to feed him now so that then we can fast him for six hours and then do another test. And then they'd be like, oh, have you fed him? And I'm like, well, I think so. He was kind of like sucking on my boob a bit. I don't know. I didn't know what breastfeeding felt like and no one was there with me. And so then it was only sort of day two or three that I was like, oh, this is what it should feel like. Kim: Yeah, I don't know. Katie: And because he put on weight well in the first couple of weeks, the health visitor and everything were like, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's going really, really well. And then from about week three or four, he would scream all day, every day. And it's because he was starving. And when I tell you, I had him on my boobs 24 hours a day. And all the health visitors just kept saying, know, breastfeeding's hard work. You just have to breastfeed on demand. And it was only then when he got to about five or six weeks and he was so tiny that they started going, we need to hospitalise him if we can't get him putting on weight. We want supplement with formula. And suddenly when we started putting a bit of formula in, he was like a new baby and was so happy and started putting on weight and so healthy. Yeah, and so that was a struggle at the beginning. again, it's the lack of support, I think, and all the questions about it. It's never, ⁓ are you feeding? It's always, are you breastfeeding? ⁓ so there's this implication that that's the right way to do it or the better way to do it. And so I persevered probably for a lot longer than I... ⁓ Kim: Great. colors. day. Katie: should have even when we were topping him up with formula I persevered till about 12 weeks and he was getting nothing from me because then I would feed him and then we would have to give him formula afterwards anyway but yeah yeah Kim: but you just feel like you should be doing it. God, Katie, well done. It feels like the whole experience, I think, from birth onwards, that whole bit, it's crazy anyway, but pretty traumatizing. I think it's You've been through a lot. ⁓ Katie: BWAH! I think the more I speak to other people, I realize that wasn't a normal experience. I don't think having a baby is easy for anyone, but the more I speak to other people, go, ⁓ I think I actually had a much harder ride than I maybe... Yeah. Kim: Right, yeah. Yeah, it was a tough go. Yeah, absolutely So ⁓ yeah, okay. I'm glad then he started getting better and ⁓ you kind of settled the whole routine of thing. Well, whatever routine there is, but And when did you start about potentially going back work? Katie: ⁓ I mean basically from the day he was born I was already but that's how much I love what I do and I don't think anyone is surprised at that when I was literally like, right okay so I've had a c-section so when can I start doing this exercise and when can I start doing that and getting back to work and I'd always had in my head that I wanted to go back for the next cast change which was September-October time. Kim: Yeah. Okay. Katie: And so that was when he was around six months. I was going, yeah, six months, like after giving birth, that's going to be fine. ⁓ think now that I look back, that was probably too soon to have gone back to work. Psychologically more than physically. And ⁓ think also because I think I put too much pressure on myself to go back at that time. because I was worried about convenience more than anything. because I was going, ⁓ it's a really good time for everyone else in the company because I can just slot in at Cast Change. I get my rehearsals. No one else has to come in ⁓ rehearse with me. My maternity cover gets ⁓ nice finish point with everyone else. Da, da, da, da, da. ⁓ me, yeah. ⁓ Kim: I say, yeah. ⁓ bless you. Don't want to worry anybody, don't want to inconvenience anyone. ⁓ God, yeah, yeah. But we do that. Katie: Yeah, that's just story of my life. Yeah. And financially, like that was ⁓ a big thing going back. ⁓ We saved a lot to get us through the maternity leave. But and to be fair, Moulin Rouge were brilliant. They paid me in full up until the day I gave birth before putting me on to my mat leave, even though ⁓ I my last show was at six months, which was the beginning of Kim: Yeah. Wow. Katie: September and then I assisted with the cast change rehearsals. So I was at work doing something and I was technically emergency cover at work should they need someone to put on a costume and walk across the stage. from that cast change, I watched opening night of the new cast and then I said, I don't have to be here anymore. I don't want to be here anymore. And they were always ⁓ adamant that regardless if I was in the building or not, they would continue to pay me, which I know is very different than a lot of other people. They were brilliant and said, if you want to be in the building and work in some capacity, you know, to be here and to be part of it, we will make that work. But we will not make you do that in order to continue your salary. So that was a huge weight off my shoulders, which was, yeah. Kim: Wow. That's absolutely brilliant. That's so great. I love hearing that. Katie: Yeah. think helped was our resident director ⁓ and one of our wardrobe supervisors. We were all due within a few weeks of each other. So I think because in a way they could continue to work for the rest of their pregnancy, it would have been seen as slightly discriminatory if just because I can't jump into the splits. Kim: Right. Katie: why should I have to go on maternity leave even when I would love to continue to work. So I think that probably had something to do with it as well, but I know that that's an exception to quite a few shows and what other people have been through. So yeah. Kim: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's good though, it's really, really good. so then you went back at six months and did your son, not your mum, just. Katie: Yeah. Yeah ⁓ So my mum came back for those six weeks of cast change ⁓ so that she could be there during the day. My mum, I couldn't have done this without her and my husband who is the most unbelievable support, but she came for those first six weeks and then he started nursery two days a week when we went in shows. Kim: Okay. God, she's good your mum, isn't she? ⁓ Yeah. Katie: Something that we also had to plan for was being a swing and being a cover. Once the new cast opens, we have approximately three months of cover rehearsals as well. And I said to the company when we were organizing me coming back, said, I will not be able to do those rehearsals unless I can bring him to work with me because otherwise I will spend six days a week basically not seeing him. And so they were like, okay, how can we make this work? Cause again, for some creatives in the past, they'd been allowed children and cover rehearsals, slightly different because they're sat on the stalls the entire time. I have to be up on stage doing things. Can't quite let a six month old crawl around the stalls by themselves. So they were like, how can we make this work? We're probably going to need a sort of designated chaperone and my wonderful mother again. She flew down from Glasgow on Sunday nights and would stay through to Wednesday evening and would come to the theatre with me and he would be there. And obviously I still had to rehearse and stuff, but then there would be times when we would finish early or I wouldn't be needed for an hour so I could actually spend the time with him. So yeah, it was a lot. My head was in two places all the time, but... Kim: Yeah. Katie: That was a big thing about me going back. I said if I can't do that then I don't see how it's going to work basically. Kim: That is so lovely. What a great idea for you and them as a company to come up with, but also that you put your foot down, or not put your foot down, but that you said, I know I want to see him, I'm going to miss him. It's, ⁓ wow, cool. This is so good. This is so interesting. You know what I mean? Like I love knowing, because I didn't know any of this. That's really cool. and I'm glad that the company were kind of on board. Like, right, let's see what we can do. yeah. Brilliant. Katie: Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah! ⁓ They've been amazing the whole time. Honestly, I feel very lucky with this company. Yeah. Kim: Okay, so I know you said physically it wasn't bad, but what was it like trying to get back up, getting those, I mean, for God's sake, Moulin Rouge is no, you're not in Les Mis, you know? Katie: I think that was what I was most apprehensive about my whole pregnancy is that although, like, I don't think that I'm the first to do this at all, but although I'd seen a lot of other mums go back to work, I'd seen them go back to shows such as Les Mis or, you know, and I'm not saying that that's easy, but in terms of ⁓ the ask is physically, it's very different. ⁓ So that was a huge concern for me. ⁓ Kim: different. Katie: going back. been talking to Equity a lot about this because I think there needs to be more guidance ⁓ the return to work, not just in ⁓ things in place once we're back at work, but the support ⁓ ⁓ people ready to go back to work. Because ⁓ had ⁓ source so much myself. Kim: Great. Katie: Like I saw Pelvic Health Physio to make sure my core was healing properly, pelvic floor was healing properly. I pay for my own PT. I found an amazing Pilates studio in Greenwich, which does ⁓ pre and postpartum. And you can bring your babies to classes. And that was a huge support for me there. But I had to spend a lot of money getting myself ready to go back to work. And Kim: Amazing. Katie: they're lucky in a way that I just, I took that upon myself to do because I could have just said, I'm coming back on this date and I probably would have attempted to do the show once and injured myself. And I just think we need more support from producers on that part in the helping us return to work, especially if we're going to be on statutory maternity pay for most of our maternity leave. So that was Kim: Mm-hmm. Great point. Katie: hard to work around looking after baby and getting myself back to work because my husband was working full time to support us. And then I went back for cast change and being a swing and we had a brand new heels ensemble. We call our female ensemble heels ensemble in the show. And so there were no spots to fill in rehearsal, if that makes sense. I was kind of up the bat doing my thing. I know, doing bits full out. And then got to tech the theatre. We got to the final dress rehearsal and unfortunately someone injured themselves in the first minute of the dress rehearsal. ⁓ And unfortunately it happens way too often in our show. That's another entirely. ⁓ But then came up over the god mic, like, Katie, how do you feel? Kim: Yeah. ⁓ you're joking. ⁓ Mmm. Katie: And I said, you know what, like they're not gonna put me in a costume now and stop this dress rehearsal, but it means I can get up and have a feel on the stage, see how it all feels. Great. Went out, did that, really, really proud of myself. And then they spoke to me afterwards and they were like, if she's not back on Monday, how do you feel about opening night? And I sort of said, I'm not sure about that one. because that would include a dress rehearsal during the day plus opening night plus being in brand new costumes because brilliantly they made me an entire new costume set because my body has changed naturally during pregnancy. My rib cage is two centimeters wider so of course I need a new corset. And I was like I'm nervous about the costume and they were like okay why don't we do the dress rehearsal and then Kim: Mm-hmm, yeah, of course. Totally. Yeah. Katie: If you feel during the dress rehearsal that you don't want to do the show that night, you don't have to do it. We'll put someone else on. Okay, I can manage that. Did it. Felt great. Okay, let's do opening night. So my first day back in the show, did the show. ⁓ I then ended up on for 10 weeks straight because of this injury. Yeah. Plus cover rehearsal. Yeah. Kim: ⁓ nice to ease your way back in. There you go. Nice and easy. gee. Katie: I don't know part of me ⁓ was part of me I think it was an ego thing I felt like I had to in a way if I was saying that I was ready to go back to work that's my job as a swing I've never been one as a swing to complain if I'm asked to go on that's literally my job I'm not going to complain about it if someone's off for a few weeks it's my job to go on for them. So Kim: I get that. Katie: I think there was a sense of ego and a of pride there and a sense of having to prove myself that I was ready to go back. I just think there could have been care for a bit longer in terms of remembering that I had just come back from maternity leave. The first couple of weeks there was a lot of checking in, how are you feeling? ⁓ we think she's going to be back in a few days. We think she's going to be back next week. Okay, I can manage like... few more days and then it just kind of stopped because I think the the injury was going on longer than they anticipated and yeah the checking in just kind of stopped and there was just an assumption that I would get on with it basically and I did have to remind them a couple of times and I went you've got an awful lot of other swings sat here in the dressing room during holiday embargo so you know they're sat there not doing very much, can we occasionally put them on for show? And occasionally, we managed that. But it didn't come without conversations of going, well, if you don't feel like you can do it, then you can take your sick days. And I was saying, ⁓ it's not a question of me not being able to do it. I'm saying in terms of preservation and in terms of remembering what I've just come back from, maybe we could consider. Kim: Yeah. Hmm. Katie: looking after me a bit more. so that was, it was hard though because then I felt like I was again asking for favors. Kim: Surely, yeah. God, good for you for saying it. Also, if there's other people sitting in the dressing room, if there's other swings, it kind of ⁓ sense, no? You know, or just, cause ⁓ they might be chomping, ⁓ in a way, if I was a swing there, you might be chomping at the bit to be like, well, Katie's been on for 10 weeks, you know, give me, give me a go. ⁓ you know, ⁓ never been a swing, so who the hell am I to even say that? ⁓ okay. No, I can see that's, that's tricky. And well, It's coming back from a lot. ⁓ And so how was your first NeNe show? Katie: You would think. Yeah. Yeah. Mm. That was fine. It's so funny because even when I was getting the later stages of my pregnancy and ⁓ they great. I had maternity meetings every single week ⁓ just in on everything and they would always be like, how do we feel about Nene? And I was like, you do know that's easier than the ensemble. And they couldn't fathom that because it's a principal role, it could possibly be easier than. Kim: Yeah. That's a good point. Katie: an ensemble track and I had to explain to him, was like, she does a lot, yes, but it's very intense for very short amounts of times. These ensemble girls do not stop the entire show and you are changing costume and you're up and down stairs and you're changing wigs and you're down to the floor and up again. And so it's funny because it was the same then when I came back from that leave and everyone was like, ⁓ Kim: Mm-hmm. Katie: Oh my God, it's your first Nene tonight. And I was like, you know, I've been doing the can can for like four weeks, right? Yeah. And I've done it so much that it, yeah, that one felt like quite chilled to me. Yeah. Yeah. Kim: Yeah, you're you're like, needies are walking the park, mate. It's a good point. I feel or anybody, that's amazing to hear. No, it's a good point. I feel like the ensemble across the West End is harder than most of the principals. and it's not to say being a principal isn't as well, because of course, but yeah, the actual track, like you say, the backstage and the running around and the costumes and holding set half the time, yeah, it's, Katie: Yeah! Yeah. Hmm. Yeah. Kim: And so how's it all going now? How are you feeling? Katie: ⁓ I actually feel like the last or so ⁓ been really hard actually, which is funnily enough coincided with me being off stage for the most amount of time since I've got back. ⁓ I actually think it's all just caught up on me a lot in terms of the fact that I just kept going because ⁓ didn't have to, but I felt like I... you know, was on the treadmill, turn up, do the show, you know, do rehearsals, whatever, and just get on with it. And then, out of the Christmas period where, you know, sickness, injury, I was on a lot as well. And then I think after that, when things started to chill out and I actually had a few days in the dressing room, I was like, oh, I'm really tired, I'm really burnt out. And we're still struggling with the sleep at night. ⁓ He may be one, but he's still up every couple of hours. Don't tell me that. ⁓ Kim: No, mine's 18 months and it's, and this is the thing, it's that you, but the thing is, you can never get, you can never get comfortable, you can never be smug. Like my daughter was a dreadful sleeper, I mean, you know, God lover, but dreadful, and then he was brilliant, my youngest, ⁓ and then switch, and you're like, ⁓ so when you think one's got it down, then the other one's, so yeah, it's always up and down, up and down, so yeah, so what's he doing at the moment? What's it look like? Katie: Yeah. Yeah. every couple of hours, or just will for a period between about ⁓ and two, ⁓ sort of go down for like half an hour and then be up again and then want to feed and then go down again. And thankfully, my husband is unbelievable. And especially the last ⁓ or so has been taking a much larger percentage during the night than me. And because I just wasn't coping with lack of sleep, especially when I'm on and I come home and by the time I shower and eat and get into bed, that's often when he wakes up for the first time. And then if I'm up with him, like the other night, I didn't end up getting into bed until three o'clock in the morning. And then I have to be up at seven when my husband leaves for work. So that's been a huge challenge for us to try and balance in some capacity. Yeah. ⁓ Kim: Yeah, no, it's that. I think it's with the shows, You're not in bed before midnight and, ⁓ God, that is hard. It's just a phase. ⁓ used to wind me up when people said it's just a phase, but then I find some solace in it and then I think now the older mind get the more I realize that it's true and I'm like, actually, you know what? And I do love it. I'm not wishing any of it away. I'm really not wishing a second away. ⁓ Katie: Yeah. Just. Yeah. you Kim: But with the hard bits, I just need to know it's not gonna last forever I mean, I've got no advice. I'm a couple of months ahead of you, so who knows? ⁓ so do you have many other, mum in the industry? Are there other? Katie: ⁓ ⁓ I do have a few. I had two lovely ladies that actually we were all due within about a couple of weeks of each other. a lot of people put us in touch when they found out that we were all pregnant. ⁓ And then also ⁓ because I've been, ⁓ you've probably seen, I've been quite open on my social media about having a baby and returning to work and everything. ⁓ Kim: But yeah, ⁓ great. Mm-hmm. Katie: Again, it's because I feel like I've not seen many people in a similar position to me in terms of being primarily a dancer, how they manage it. And because I've been so open about it, I've had a lot of people get in touch with me who are in very early stages of pregnancy or, and keeping it all very quiet at the moment, but just being able to talk to people about that and. Kim: Wow. Katie: you know, everything that my company did for me, I'm really pro-union and work a lot with equity and they were so brilliant about every little scrap that I was entitled to. I, you know, I made work. And so just reminding people what they are actually entitled to and are eligible for. So that's really exciting to me to be able to know all these people that are doing this thing because I feel like Kim: That's amazing! Yeah. ⁓ God. Katie: A few years ago, didn't really know anyone that did it. I saw people doing it, but no one that I knew in my immediate circle. Maybe it's just the age I am now as well. But I think a lot of people are just not putting it off maybe as long as they might have in the past. ⁓ And sort of just going, well, I'm going to do it now and I'll either make it work or I won't And I think the more that we just go, let's try and make it work and let's tell the companies what we need. ⁓ Kim: Yeah. care. Mm-hmm. Katie: then they'll be more open to it. Otherwise they're going to lose a lot of brilliant people. Kim: Absolutely. Right? Totally. That's so lovely that you've become like almost like a beacon or that people were like, I want to go to her. I'll ask her some questions. That's brilliant though. and kind of does show you though that there isn't much ⁓ inequity elsewhere that people could be like, well, I don't really know who else I can ask. ⁓ You God, amazing. Katie: Yeah. Yeah. And then when I, ⁓ I tell people what like they should be asking for and what they're entitled to, they're baffled. And I'm, yeah, and I'm lucky that a lot of people at Moulin Rouge were very on top of it. So they, they introduced me to a lot of things. My company manager was brilliant about stuff. But yeah, it's funny that ⁓ have to dig for these things instead of just being given it. Yeah. ⁓ Kim: Yeah, no one's got a clue. Yeah, I remember thinking I was just gonna get fired because way back in the day that's almost what happened. So was like, I think I'm just gonna lose my job. My agent was like, you're not gonna lose your job. You're not gonna lose it. The moment they find out it doesn't work like that anymore. And I was like, ⁓ okay, I don't know. So yeah, mental. Right, and I was just gonna ask, do you have a career highlight? Is there any one moment, it doesn't have to be an entire job, but just one moment where you're like, God, that was pretty peak, that felt amazing. Katie: Yes. Yeah. Bye! I would say probably, probably actually opening night in Moulin Rouge ⁓ because that was my first theatre show. I've done like a little one-off gig at the national, but that was my first proper back to a West End contract after COVID. And that took me a long time. I was very ⁓ ⁓ said to Mary Poppins, didn't want to go back after. Kim: Yeah. Katie: Covid. Because I feel like I'd got everything that I could out of that show already. I didn't want to sign on for, we were close to the end of our contract and then they wanted us to sign on for a whole other year. But that was scary because then I was auditioning and when I tell you for six months I was in finals for every West End show under the sun and not booking anything. And so then when I got Moulin Rouge that was huge for me and that was Kim: Yeah. Katie: the one I wanted all along anyway. So yeah, opening night of that was pretty cool. Yeah, and I still love it. It's bonkers. I love this show so much. Yeah. Kim: Perfect. Amazing. That's brilliant though. That's the thing. It's such an amazing show. Like, oh, No, good for you. Glad to know that you're there and you went back and you did it and you're smashing it and Yeah, keep going. Well, thank you so much. that's, it's been so brilliant. Thank you for sharing and thank you for, I mean, telling, I know your birth trauma is... Katie: Yeah. Hmm. Yeah. Kim: a really difficult one there, but I think you're absolutely right and the more we speak about it and share the stories and people what the hell they can do in terms of this industry, yeah, better. So thank you so much, mate. I appreciate that. All right, bye. Katie: Hmm. Yeah. Thank you. Bye.