kim: Hello, I'm Kimberly Powell and this is Showbiz Mums, a podcast about mums working in theatre and how they juggle the chaos of parenting plus an eight-show week. We'll cover birth stories, pregnancy and postpartum in the theatre industry and discuss how to maintain a career whilst having kids, or at least trying to. We'll also open up the conversation of job sharing and why that can be beneficial. So join me as we speak to some amazing theatre parents and get some advice on this pretty niche subject matter, but something I'm really passionate about. Kim: Today I'm speaking Emma Williams. ⁓ Emma is a time Olivier Award nominated actress. She was the original truly scrumptious in Chitty Chitty Bang Bang in the West End. ⁓ And just some credits include The Sound of Music, Half a Sixpence, White Christmas, Annie Get Your Gun, Love Story and Zorro. Emma Williams: Yeah, ⁓ I think acknowledging way this, ⁓ I think that way our lives and our businesses make us ⁓ sort of react parenthood is sort of a big thing. ⁓ I'm away on at minute. But it's like, I feel guilty being away from my kid. The day I left for Glasgow was awful. Like I put her bed and at bedtime she suddenly burst into tears and was like, Kim: ⁓ Just a quick heads up before the episode, there is discussion around weight again, particularly postpartum, and it's a full discussion, so if you're not ready to listen to that, then please come back another time. ⁓ She was also in the original cast of Mrs Henderson Presents, so although we didn't actually work together, I took over from her cast on what I regard an extremely special job. gave birth to her daughter Izzy six years ago, and I can't wait to talk to her about her experience of working and parenting Just a brilliant chat there. What I loved was how we covered so many parts of her career and life ⁓ as as parenting journey. So I'm so grateful to Emma for coming on. ⁓ Thank you so to everyone for listening and I'll see you next week. Also, describes something that was said to her by an audience member and it is an explicit sexual violence reference and I thought about taking it out but it's part of her story and it is what happened so if we can't talk about these things then what's the point in all this? ⁓ please be aware that it is mentioned in the episode. ⁓ it is otherwise a great chat and Emma was extremely generous with her time. ⁓ Particularly when my switched off after chatting for about an hour and I had a mild heart attack but fortunately she stayed on and Emma Williams: Please don't send me to school tomorrow. Six hours is too long. Please don't go to Glasgow. Don't go to Aberdeen. It's too far away. I don't want you to work. I want you to stay here with me. I go to Glasgow. I'm like, following day. She's having the best time. She's loving her life. She's not got a problem at all. And James like, I don't know what that was about. I'm like, okay. So you feel guilty for not being there, but you also feel guilty. I feel guilty that I enjoy the time away. I feel guilty that I'm loving the time on stage. I feel guilty that I am enjoying not having to do bedtime. Kim: at the same time and how she has managed that juggle. So thanks for joining me today. How you doing? You're right. ⁓ Have you been enjoying all this lovely rain at the moment? Emma Williams: Thanks for having me. ⁓ god, I looked really good about an hour and a half ago and then I picked my daughter up from rainbows in the pouring rain and went, well that was worthwhile, wasn't it? Kim: You kept recording and we didn't lose everything thankfully. ⁓ thanks for being here and on with the Emma Williams: or bath time. God, I hate bath time. It's so bloody boring. ⁓ feel the different types of guilt that come with with parenthood. I feel guilty for enjoying the fact that my ⁓ job me away. just see things that I've not seen or I get to spend the night in a hotel and not be woken up by a child at 6.20 in the morning going, ⁓ I have a drink. You know, not having to make endless rounds of air fryer meals or Kim: Yeah. Yeah, sure. So, because you're on tour at the moment, are you, you're back at home this week? Emma Williams: We've got a week off this week, yeah. I only joined the show on Top Hat and I only joined it very, very recently. So I just had sort of Sheffield, Dublin, Glasgow, so know, nice and close to home in Bedfordshire. And then this is a week off and every, literally every day so far that I've been back, my daughter's like, are you going away again tonight? I'm like, no, you've got a week, darling. has a whole map. ⁓ Kim: Yeah. Ugh. Yeah. Emma Williams: ⁓ It's silly, they're silly things ⁓ but it's also important and know knowing that ⁓ so of we do is ⁓ part of our personality, part of who we are. ⁓ It's that my daughter knows I work, it's important that she that I get fulfillment from it, that it keeps me mentally healthier just like taking time out. I reached out to some other mums in the industry and was like, how do I make this easy on her? Because this is, this is very sudden. got like the, was asked to audition around the 17th, I think of December. I got the job on Christmas Eve and I started rehearsals on the 30th. It was insane. And I did my first performance on the 23rd of January. So it was very fast. And Izzy is the sort of kid who needs information. Kim: It is. ⁓ my god. Yeah. Emma Williams: to go for a run and be like, need half an hour to myself right now, because you can't pour from an empty cup. And you can't be selfless unless you are self full. So I think selfish is the wrong word. Self full makes more sense because sometimes you need to take time to fill yourself up so that then when it comes to being like, now this is your time. She needs to know, she needs to plan, she needs to be able to expect and she hangs a hat on those things. She's not good at sudden changes. ⁓ reached out to some of the stagey mums on ⁓ Facebook Mummy Banter group that we all know and love in this industry. ⁓ ⁓ was like, how do I help this? How do I help this happen? ⁓ I really want to do this job. ⁓ ⁓ of ⁓ mums went, make a map. Kim: Yeah, I like that. Emma Williams: the phone goes on one side, the computer goes on one side, that you go, what program do you want to watch on the television or what board game do you want to play? ⁓ but is important because it's important to you so that you can be in So I have this massive map of the UK and it's got all the locations and all the dates and all the numbers and she's got a little picture of my face and she moves it around. And then when we've finished a week, she gets to rip off the sticker and stick a panda on there because that's obvious, know, ⁓ Her favorite animal at the minute. I think, I do think it helps. It helps us sort of understand that. I think it helps because she's seeing it decrease. She's seeing those weeks go and then she's like, ⁓ you have a week off this week. Kim: Panda, of course. That's brilliant. What a great idea. What a really great idea. Emma Williams: know, in that time period put them as your focus because you have other times to put yourself as your focus and it's just finding the way to balance all of that out. And it's not about keeping parents out of the industry, it's about making the industry work around children and that shouldn't be something we should feel bad about that you want to have children and still be creative because let's be honest the whole point of being a creative is to be a big kid. great because we've got another one we've got four weeks on and then another week off ⁓ and then we'll have three more weeks in the UK and then we go to Paris for three weeks yeah and my husband was like she's not going to cope three weeks without you in France we're going to come to France he's taking her out of school for a couple of days and we're going to Paris and she was like ⁓ ⁓ Disneyland ⁓ ⁓ Kim: Okay. ⁓ wow. great. Yeah, of course. Of course your mum's working in Paris. Of course you are. Take those benefits where you can. ⁓ mean, a great experience for her, yeah, that's tough. That's, ⁓ I imagine it's hard. Emma Williams: And unless we bring more children into this business, how are they ever going to know? ⁓ you know, really we get to be silly and play for a living. So why would we keep that away from children? Kim: Yeah. Emma Williams: Yeah, yeah. think so, particularly because ⁓ husband James is a drummer. He's on the Book of Mormon in London. so doing, know, kind of the regular Monday to Saturday schedule. ⁓ He's doing the at half past four to go to work and that kind of thing. And that's been the way for a very long time. ⁓ The work that done since Izzy was born, sorry, post pandemic, pre pandemic was a bit weird. And where would we keep people who are parents to those children away from it as well? just, there has to be a better way. There just has to be. post-pandemic a lot of it's been filming or ⁓ voiceover work or a couple of days on a workshop. I did Scissorhands last January but it was in London. It's very different going away, particularly when you've been the primary caregiver. a lot to kind of ⁓ in and I think in so much so I'm fortunate that James is a muso because they can dep out. So he never does ⁓ eight shows a week, he often sort of takes one day off anyway so that he can take a swimming or... Kim: Yeah, yeah. ⁓ my God, you're absolutely right. Thank you so much, Emma. That was honestly ⁓ a brilliant chat. ⁓ I really appreciate it. And it's just so relatable and ⁓ tough, but Emma Williams: Thank ⁓ Kim: Hmm. Emma Williams: Yeah. Kim: amazing. It's true. Emma Williams: you know, rest his arms because it's the heavy old show and you know, he teaches and things as well. So we try and try and find the balance that way, but it is hard because we don't have any family that live near us. We're both from Yorkshire and we both live south and everyone's still up there. So it's heavy going and the family have been really amazing at sort of stepping in and go, right, well, we'll come down that week and help out and bring, know, when Salford go and... Kim: Nice. Emma Williams: stay with my parents in Halifax and they'll help out the hair and James's mom's come down and yeah, we're fortunate but it's not as easy as them just being around the corner. Kim: No, of course, of course. So how do you make it work for her when you're away and James goes to the show? Do you have an au pair Emma Williams: We're a bit weird about people being in our house, I don't know why. Kim: ⁓ my god, I know exactly what you mean. No, I honestly, I've started paying my friends to look after the kids. I'm like, do you guys want the work? Because we need some. I don't know what it is. Emma Williams: Yeah, well, I think we've never been great about people being in our house anyway. I don't know whether it's because we're both kind of that sort of extroverted, introverted people who just need their own space and time. And my niece lives with us two days a week generally, because she's in college in London. she's helped out like ⁓ the week I went to Glasgow, once I put Izzy to bed, I was like, okay, you're in charge. But we have two people at the moment that we use. One of whom is like a teaching assistant at Izzy's school. So she knows her quite well already. And her son is in Izzy's class. She goes to a tiny little village school. It's like 15 in each year. And the other is a friend who is like a childcare professional. A birthing professional who also was in the industry. And so Izzy knows her really well as well. And she understands the hours. Because that's the problem is finding people who get the hours. You you can find child minders, they're like, no, no, no, I finished at six. You're like, nothing's good for me. Yeah, I think that's the tricky thing. But yeah, we've been really fortunate and some friends have helped out here and there with like, you know, take it to parties, but you don't want to take the mic, you? Because it's like, really awkward. And get, I did at one point when there was a potential job for me to tour ⁓ for big company. Kim: Mm-hmm. That's when you need to start. No, Emma Williams: And they originally, were like, yeah, job share. In the audition material, they were like, we want to do a job share. We want to hire two moms and do a job share. And I'm like, this sounds amazing. Incredible job, incredible piece, incredible theater, incredible company. Terrible money. On paper, nice money, but for any mom or parent, you know how much childcare costs. And when it comes down to it and you're away, so you're not getting that kind of, look, I can leave it. Kim: Hey. ⁓ you so much Emma appreciate it thank you ⁓ bye Mm-hmm. Emma Williams: Thank you. Yay. Thanks so much, half plus four when it's the, kind of need someone from school pick up, it adds up. And we worked out on that job that we would have been better off as a household by 75 pounds a week. And I'm like, I can't do it. And they're like, well, what about job sharing? But you're not going to pay me for the weeks off, are you? And they're like, no, but you won't have any childcare. And I'm like, I'm still only 75 pounds better off a week. And then I have to find a childcare person who will only do one week out of every two. Kim: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Emma Williams: And that's tricky as well. that's where a lot ⁓ of the way the industry, I think, is shifting is great, but it's also there's so much of it is not factoring in the reality of it. The reality of the childcare costs, the reality of the implications on people. I love the government's tax free childcare fund. I think it's an amazing thing. However, I'm well aware that so many people don't need that once their kids go to school because they're at work and school covers that time. But for anyone who works an unusual job, so shift work or healthcare, you know, it doesn't help. know, school hours don't a difference. We actually see our kid less and ⁓ it's, there's ⁓ so things try and into that. And I think that's a really tricky part ⁓ of this industry because ⁓ you go into it because want to, you go into it because you have to. It's part of who we are, it's our identity. Kim: Yeah. Yeah. Emma Williams: And so when that kind of, that combination, particularly with matrescence, where it's sort of ripped away, like you lose a part of who you are anyway, and you find a new part, which is amazing, but that kind of erasure of who you were and the inability to necessarily get back to work in the way you want to, I think it's incredibly damaging you're not careful. ⁓ ⁓ speak of that as someone who had postnatal depression, who a pandemic baby. Kim: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Emma Williams: I'm ⁓ very positive it. I think just awareness ⁓ that I think is ⁓ the factor. try and talk about quite openly, particularly with my new mum friends. Because for those of us that did go through in pandemic ⁓ and the lack of ⁓ healthcare support, ⁓ I think that when you find everyone has very similar story of things going very because... ⁓ Nobody could be in the right place at the right time. And that's no one's fault. That's just what happened. But it definitely had an impact on whether we had a second child, which we did not. Kim: Yeah, no, absolutely. So were you working, when you were trying for a baby or when you were pregnant? Emma Williams: Um, we had just finished doing White Christmas for the second time together. We did White Christmas at West Dutch Playhouse, which is now the Leeds Playhouse. And then we did it at Leicester for Nicola Foster again. And we just got married that year. James was on the Shrek tour working Tuesdays to Sundays. I was on the Officer in a Gentleman tour working Mondays to Saturdays. Kim: Lovely. Emma Williams: And we finished White Christmas, we decided we would go on our honeymoon neither of us ⁓ had job to go James was auditioning for things ⁓ and ⁓ so was I. ⁓ And we suddenly went, well, know, let's have a think. ⁓ knew we wanted to try kids. knew ⁓ I a variances, so it wasn't necessarily gonna be an easy option been told. we probably wouldn't get pregnant very easily. They lied. Because we literally went on honeymoon, came back and probably fell pregnant about two weeks after that. ⁓ we had couple chemical pregnancies on the way. ⁓ But genuinely, it was ⁓ super easy for us, but was not working. ⁓ I was on my day I work as an archivist in my day life. ⁓ Kim: ⁓ great! Emma Williams: So like theater historian and paperwork librarian. I love it, the geek in me adores it. ⁓ I was doing that. And James was then on the Book of Mormon tour. So I was following him the country while pregnant. But I had work lined up my diary. I was supposed to be going to do South Pacific with the Toulon Opera. And I sort of messaged them and I'd had it in my diary for like two years. I sort of said, I'm pregnant. And they're like, okay. Kim: But that sounds brilliant. Yeah. Emma Williams: I'm due in November and they're like, okay, we start in February, this is fine. I'm like, I'm okay. Great. then, were some other that came in that they were like, you know, because we had a tricky pregnancy. I was very sick for a long time with it, but also, we had genetic things that we had to deal with. my side of the family are carriers of something called Tay-Sachs, like, Oh, we need to get you to the geneticist and we need to get you there now. And so suddenly we were having blood tests and James was having to have blood tests as well because they realized that it's now finding one in 250 people, but it's recessive. So you've got to have both parents be carriers and then you have a one in four chance of your child being affected by it, but a two in four chance of carrying. If you're a carrier, it's not a problem. And it turns out I am a carrier. Thankfully, James is not because children who are affected with Tay-Sachs don't generally live past the age of seven or eight. And they were like, if we'd had to go through, we were like 16 weeks pregnant at this point when we had to start having the conversation about, okay, we do these blood tests, it will take us about five weeks to get them back. we find out that you're both carriers, we then test the baby. And if the baby is a carrier, our recommendation is termination. And they're like, Kim: Gosh. Emma Williams: and you'll be about 26 weeks pregnant at that point. And you're like, ⁓ my God, it's not something any parent wants to hear or think about. So we didn't really tell many people or acknowledge ⁓ that we were pregnant until we knew that I was a carrier and James was not. And ⁓ that respect, we were safe. And I think I was 22 weeks pregnant at that point. Kim: ⁓ my god. No. God, ⁓ Emma Williams: And was like, it was like finally we're like, yeah, ⁓ having a baby. ⁓ at that point go, okay, you can breathe. And then, yeah, James was ⁓ His UK tour went international just around R2U day. ⁓ he swapped at one venue with the drummer from London. Kim: Yeah. Yeah. Emma Williams: when I was past the point of being able to fly. And every time he was home, it was like, ⁓ baby, come now. ⁓ fully cooked, we're okay. ⁓ And then Kim: Yeah. Emma Williams: and we literally every, we were like, right, everything. had a sweep and I had, like all the teas and things, the food and the stuff and the sex, you know, everything that you can do to get the baby out. And then acupuncture. And it was acupuncture that did it. ⁓ Yeah. And I literally was like, that's the one. ⁓ 12 hours later, my water's Kim: Oh, was it? Emma Williams: and I was hypnobirthing and it yeah didn't go massively according to plan the hypnobirthing was brilliant it was amazing but it wasn't until we were 36 hours into labor that they went that's not a head and they slammed a button and doctors came running and we realized that Izzy was not only breech but she was in splits and so I had an emergency c-section after laboring for a long time they were like ⁓ but you're quite small so she's probably only about six pounds Kim: ⁓ Christ. Emma Williams: She was nearly eight pounds and I'd labored so long that I'd lost all the fluid and they couldn't get her out. So they had to kind of cut a little bit extra and yeah. And then six days later, I ended up back in hospital because I got an infection of some kind that they still don't know what it was. And I lost all feeling down one side of my body. I can laugh about this now, but at the time it was really traumatic. Kim: Ugh. God, I was gonna say, Emma Williams: So ⁓ came out hospital, first time, went back in week later for a whole week, came out. We had like one more week at home as a family. And then James went back to Zurich and came home two and a bit weeks later for Christmas, for one day, literally one day. was signed off at five weeks postpartum to be able to him to the airport on Christmas day and drive back again. Yeah. Nothing so scary as driving for the first time post C-section with your new bomb baby at the back When I think about it now, was bonkers. And then I started working. Like I started recording in the studio. was replacing some Julie Andrews recordings for Concord Theatricals. So I had Izzy in the recording studio with me like... Kim: ⁓ my god. Yeah, but you just do it. Emma Williams: Six weeks, seven weeks. And then did the Zorro ⁓ concert, the 10 year anniversary concert. And then was supposed to go to France. James took a off so he could to Toulon with me and ⁓ be daddy daycare out there ⁓ so that I could do opera, ⁓ opera musicals. Kim: ⁓ I love that. Brilliant. your voice affected, particularly doing that sort style after pregnancy and birth? Emma Williams: Well, it's... it's and Hammerstein, it's sort of my... it's my safe place. Like, canonical soprano roles, that will always be the easier place for everything. ⁓ My breath, ⁓ breath had that was a big thing. ⁓ And I really with breath in the end because... in the end of pregnancy, because of now where I know she was stuck. But... Yeah, we were there two weeks before they shut down, so they shut down a week before us, but I think what was more, awful about the was I was, ⁓ I was body by somebody relatively high up, shall say, at the opera there ⁓ on the second day of rehearsals. ⁓ Which was a bit of like, you know, you are in a bikini in two weeks time. And I was like, mm-hmm. Kim: ⁓ wow. Emma Williams: and I'm like, I'm 13 weeks postpartum. I had an emergency C-section that did not go according to plan. I've just been signed off on a mummy MOT for my pelvic floor and everything. I'm now allowed to exercise and I've just been for a run this morning and it's like, It's just, it's a different way of thinking. And I think particularly in France, they have a slightly different attitude towards, towards motherhood. Kim: Mm-hmm. Emma Williams: But the body shaming was quite bad and I remember I sort of phoned the amazing Larry Blank who was conducting and you know and the conductor runs the whole thing in terms of the shows there in the opera house and he just, I told him what happened he's like give me a minute and I got a full apology and but he was just like he was furious on my behalf because I'd phoned him when I was praying and went look Is this going to happen? Can I do this? the irony being that, ⁓ think Gina had already played the same role. Gina Becker played the same role in South Pacific, fully pregnant, you know, ⁓ like, ⁓ okay. Kim: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wait a Just this is where the industry is a funny one isn't it though because you know like you 13 weeks postpartum and a c-section and you're in rehearsals and you're about to you know even that mentally physically being there and doing it ⁓ that ⁓ I can't imagine the feeling of somebody coming over anything. Emma Williams: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it was very badly timed and not thought about properly about what the impact would be. Particularly because I've been waiting for ⁓ role for two years. It's like one of my dream roles and I still haven't played just very much a kind of a sign of the times, I think. Kim: Ew. ⁓ Emma Williams: And also just makes you go, do you want to stand for this? You know, a lot of us have spent our lives at this end just being told we're not thin enough, you know, not attractive enough or whatever. and sitting there going, I I'm bigger than I was. I don't need you to tell that. ⁓ I know. I see it in mirror every single day. I see my scar. ⁓ I try and teach myself that scar is something to be loved and to be proud of because it birthed my child ⁓ when rest of my body couldn't. like, I don't need you to point that out to ⁓ I a feeling that at the time I did my, ⁓ a strong woman and I shall rail at you in my own politely way. And was like, well, you didn't look at a photograph of me before you cast me. And I did send you my pregnancy measurements. So, you know, this isn't my fault. I'm just like, oh my God. look, my body is a size 14. It's not. Kim: Yeah, but I mean, well, I think we're looking back at Mrs. Henderson, like you've been on stage naked, like full naked. when I talk to people about that job, ⁓ sure, yeah, done it before. ⁓ Emma Williams: several times. So, Mrs. Zorro, a model girl. Kim: ⁓ right. Emma Williams: ⁓ topless in an officer and a gentleman. Almost completely naked in Batboy. It was in just a thong. I'm like the Helen Mirren of the theatre world. And I was naked in a film that I made as well when just before we shot it they decided that the beautiful underwear that we picked wasn't right and they were like, now we think she should be naked. Kim: Bloody hell. Are you Right. so know, so you're comfortable, you know, being naked or being on stage or you've come, I'm sure you've come, have you come to a point where you're, okay, okay, good. Cause I want to talk about this because, because having done it, I feel like people are like, ⁓ great. So you're like a body person. I'm like, I don't even really walk around my house naked. ⁓ Emma Williams: ⁓ No! No! Not in the slightest! I do walk around my house, I would absolutely walk around my house naked. But found... ⁓ always been, ⁓ think in the days, it just like, it's a job and you must take the job and you need to do the job and ⁓ it's just a body it's okay. And it was about trying to give myself. ⁓ Kim: Mm. Emma Williams: belief and confidence in myself. And I think sometimes people view you as more confident because you're prepared to do that kind of thing. And it was like going, well, if they think I'm more confident, then I'll become more confident. It's just a persona, it's a mask. I'm not one of those people who became an actor because I was like, hey, I want everyone to look at me. I was the person who became an actor because I wanted to hide me away behind a character. So whilst it's technically me that's naked on the stage, it's not me, it's the character. If you asked me to just kind of... Kim: Yeah, it's self-fulfilling. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Emma Williams: take my clothes off in front of a load of strangers, was like, no, no, no. ⁓ that was really strange because in Mrs. Henderson, I don't know if they did this in your rehearsal process, but ⁓ had the day where like, right, today, very early on, we need to all take our clothes off and just kind of just be like, it's a body, ⁓ over it. And it's like, okay, well, I'm leading the group of young women that are in this show, essentially, and I need to, I need to step up to the mark and do it, frankly. Kim: No, no, no, no. Emma Williams: And so it was like, I will do this and I will do this without being shy and I will just get this done and it will be fine. And it did help. I did that through quite a lot of the rehearsals, even when we had the invited run through in the rehearsal room. ⁓ no lights to hide behind or anything like that, no dresses waiting in the robe. ⁓ did it even then because I was like, I just need to get, this will be the worst it ever is. And that was amazing. And I did find it really inspiring because the amount of people. Kim: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Emma Williams: that would come up to me at the end of the show and we were actually in production and be like, it really empowered me and I feel so good. you know, whilst I was a lot smaller in those days, I've always been curvy. I've never been like super skinny. That's just not, it's just not my body type. cause remember talking to Terry about it, I'm like, are you gonna want me to like lose loads of weight or something? Cause I said, it's not gonna happen. you know, there was one moment in tech in London where... He was doing a thing. He's like, we just need a little bit more toning on the leg. I'm standing there stark while I'm naked a plinth ⁓ my arms up while they light a scene. ⁓ just went, we need a, ⁓ just, can we just us a bit more toning on the leg? And I went ⁓ very, very loud. He's you need a different actress than Terry. And I think he realized what he'd said. He's like, sorry. And Ben went, Ben Omeroth, who was like in design, could fix that and just change the lighting. was like, boom, that's all we need. Cause I'm also really pale, ⁓ which doesn't help. Kim: You Yet. Yet. yeah, yeah, sure. No, we did have that same experience in rehearsals though. And I remember, I remember it, cause it was so early on, you've kind of made a couple of friends, but it was such early days and yeah, our leading lady went and did it first. And I remember, still remember the moment she took off her top and then as she pulled her pants down, I remember being like, oh, we're doing this. We're going in now. She's done it. We've all got to do it. But it really did work because then we did the scene. Emma Williams: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Kim: straight after that we did the rehearsal where they come off and they're so exhilarated and the adrenaline is mad and that is exactly what we were all like and then you know and we all went to the pub that night and I mean it was in what's that one in Fulham brought it Dance Attic and it's like the cock is the pub next door I was like oh the irony but yeah but it was great and again in that piece it will make sense but it there is a moment we're like what the hell is happening Emma Williams: Yep. Yeah. Mm. Hey. Yeah. mean, ⁓ but for every lovely that I had, for every 10 lovely people that said something nice after the show, there'd be one comment, generally on Twitter as it was in those days. And it was what got me verified. ⁓ I think had ⁓ three horrific ⁓ if ⁓ want hear that, but the worst one was you deserve to be raped with a knife, ⁓ which was like ⁓ for a body. for a perfectly natural bare body, standing on a stage and walking forward. That's literally it. And it's the most horrific thing that I was like, is it my body that can offend you in that way? Is it the concept of being okay with nudity? I'm like, I'm not like woohoo, okay with it. I'm just embracing the fact I have a body and it's okay. And I'm just doing a job. But it was also just like. Kim: ⁓ my. I'm just doing a job. Emma Williams: I was fascinated that someone could feel that level of vitriol but at the same time they probably didn't they were probably just sat behind a keyboard going what can I say that's not very nice and it's... ⁓ yeah keyboard warriors and yeah and I Kim: Yeah, well it's funny because now we know that but I think back in the early days when it was Twitter in particular, ⁓ god, the keyboard warriors thing, know, the trolls. Emma Williams: and I find it very interesting now as a parent of a girl to be going like, here's our boundaries. Here's what a boundary is and you can say. So there'll be days when she's like, know, I say, I ⁓ walk around house naked, that's fine. But there'll be days when she's sort of feeling a bit body shy herself and she'll be like, ⁓ no, mommy, not in my room with no clothes on. I'm like, okay, fine. That's your boundary. That's your, you know, that's your line. Or ⁓ she'd be I want to do my bath all by myself today. And you're like, okay, just make sure you wash properly. ⁓ and trying to respect when she needs the space. Because it's important that she knows it's her body and it's place to have consent and ⁓ she uses that consent. you know, it's, which is also particularly hard, I think, when you're doing a job or you're ⁓ over your child to someone who you have to know and trust ⁓ things like bath time and bedtime and ⁓ hard. That's really hard. ⁓ Kim: Mm-hmm. Emma Williams: for any parent, think. because of the day and age we live in. It's like things have changed, it's just that we're more aware. ⁓ I Kim: Yeah. No, it's like... Yeah. Yeah. absolutely. ⁓ So in terms of postpartum, were then go back, but you ended up not the Emma Williams: Mm. Yeah, so I did a couple of, I did those couple of jobs and then, and then COVID happened and everything that was in my diary. Cause I got all my 10 kit days planned out. Cause like in France, in the opera world, you only get paid for your show days. You don't get paid for rehearsals. So although it was a five week contract, it technically was only three days work. Although we had to fight to get paid even a percentage of the money because obviously we didn't do the shows. And ⁓ job. Kim: Yeah. Okay, ⁓ that's interesting. Emma Williams: had gone sideways because I was freelance. And so that was all gone. So there's no, you know, I wasn't on a contract with them. I was just kind of working week to week. it became, so strange. ⁓ I didn't voiceovers in days. There was none of that. I still auditioning for adverts, all those advert auditions and ⁓ invest in a tripod. ⁓ I hate self tapes. I'm very grateful for them. Thank you so much, but also. ⁓ Kim: Yeah. Emma Williams: I really hate self-tapes. And trying to do self-tapes around a baby is hilarious because you're like, shh, just shh, just 30 seconds of shh, no? Okay, we're crying right now. So I was sort of auditioning for bits and pieces like that. My husband was... Kim: Yeah. Emma Williams: building COVID mortuaries and COVID testing sites and delivering kebabs. Like he took any work he could to keep us going. ⁓ Because the one thing we hadn't ever thought would happen would be there'd be no work. ⁓ You know, and so far away. She was tiny. She was three months old when we went into it. ⁓ And didn't sleep. So Izzy didn't sleep through until she was two and a quarter, two and a half. And by not sleep through, I mean at the worst. Kim: ⁓ wow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and she was still really little. wow. Emma Williams: at the height of it all when we had the sleep consultants the healthcare professionals and the dietitian and everything. We were waking up ⁓ times a night between ⁓ and 5am. That's every 20 minutes. It was ⁓ Really I was diagnosed late onset postnatal depression at 13 months postpartum. Kim: ⁓ my god. Emma Williams: they have no idea when it started because couldn't see anyone, couldn't talk to anyone. ⁓ Kim: But also the accumulation, even your story of going through all of that in pregnancy, ⁓ then a birth, ⁓ then also being by yourself quite early on, and then COVID, I feel like can, you can see it all kind of ⁓ comes together. Gosh, that must have been so difficult. Emma Williams: Mm. Yeah. Yeah, and yet at the time you just sort of go, well, this is what it is, isn't it? I think we are so often taught to kind of suck it up and get on with it, and particularly in our business, Kim: Mm. Mm-hmm. Mm. Emma Williams: But yeah, it feels sort of very dreamlike now. Like it just, none of it quite feels real. But I think the combination of that, we also, you know, we had issues with Izzy with vomiting. ⁓ So she, you know, she did well. I only managed to breastfeed for like six, seven weeks and then got mastitis and so did she. ⁓ And ⁓ could not get her on milk bottle or from breast once it was fixed. So that was like, ⁓ no. Kim: Nope. Emma Williams: So she was bottle fed from that point on. And then six months started weaning amazingly. And then suddenly started vomiting a lot. She'd been vomiting a bit before, projectile, but then it got really bad. Every five or six days, 10 minutes after bedtime, like clockwork, you'd hear the certain cough and the hairs in the back of my neck would go. And I learned after a couple of months to strip off as I ran up the stairs, because she ruined so much of my wardrobe and I didn't have much that fit. Kim: ⁓ great. But yeah. Yeah. Emma Williams: I learned to buy sort of cheap rugs ⁓ to cover the floor with so that they were easier to throw away. You know, have towels permanently down. And it took us a long time to get to the bottom of it. She was dairy and soy free for like six months and then did the dairy ladder, which obviously got in the way of ⁓ the weaning process. So she became a bit phobic. She still is a little bit. Kim: Mm-hmm. Emma Williams: And when you start to talk about these stories with people, they're like, ⁓ yeah, my kid's like that. like, what did you guys find out? And they're like, we don't know. We don't know if they said at one point, it's probably her stomach flap hadn't informed fully and probably would get there eventually. And wood, ⁓ we've had vomiting like that for several years. ⁓ But the worst of it, you're in the thick of the whole thing of vomiting and no sleep. And you're just like, when does it stop? Kim: Great. That's it. When you... Yeah, when you're living yeah, when you're living it, the sleep thing ⁓ is, ⁓ I mean, I remember thinking it was like hyperbolic people would say and she was, up every half an hour. Emma Williams: Mm-hmm. Kim: was like, this is completely unsustainable. But for her as well, she's not getting any quality sleep. I just don't know how, like I thought everyone was joking, like when parents say they're tired, I thought they like had five hours sleep. But I was like, what I would give for five hours straight sleep, you know? Emma Williams: Mm-hmm. Mm! No. The thing I found really strange was, my husband definitely needs like eight hours sleep minimum. And obviously he was getting up sometimes at 6am and going out and building these Covid sites all day for like 12-14 hours and then coming home. So he was exhausted, he was doing physical work. So you go, well that's you doing that and I'm gonna do this. So I did a lot of the night stuff anyway. And particularly because I've been an insomniac since I was 16. So I'm used to working on four to six hours sleep maximum a night. Kim: ⁓ wow. Emma Williams: And then maybe once every six months I'll crash out for 24 hours. When I did Chitty I crashed out once I think on a Saturday night after the show and I didn't wake up until five o'clock on the Monday when my dad phoned me to go, we haven't heard from you, are you okay? And I'm like, I need to be at work. My brain just doesn't stop. It circles constantly and probably is a sign of something neuro-spicy but I've been diagnosed so you know. Kim: No way. Emma Williams: ⁓ And I remember thinking, and I'm struggling, despite the fact I'm so used to this to a certain degree. And then I'm like, I'm now on tour and last weekend, I don't need to set alarms. ⁓ For the first in six years, I don't need to set an alarm. Kim: ⁓ Emma Williams: This is so weird. I'm used to a tiny person waking me up, you know, and she's a pretty good sleeper now, give her a due. She really is. She's very much a creature of habit. She's like bedtime seven to seven, It's one of the rules we give to the babysitters, like you must put her in bed. Kim: Yeah, you could just wake up. ⁓ great. Emma Williams: you know surprising. like, it's a form of torture. That sleep deprivation is a form of torture. And I think who has a kid that is like that, a first child, is likely to have a second child. Because you go, ⁓ how do ⁓ we this again? nearly killed me the time. ⁓ How do we do this And we've had that chat so many times. Kim: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Emma Williams: to James and I was only after we bought this house to move to, which has enough bedrooms to have an extra child. And as we were packing things up at the old house, we're like, are we ever gonna do it? Are we? And we put the cut on Marketplace and it was like, we're drawing the line. Because there was too much of the fear and the decision that you should be grateful for what you have. Kim: Yeah, yeah. Emma Williams: And to not kind of risk that was, was, up the risks versus the benefits was just like, this is too much for us. ⁓ Kim: Yeah. Yeah, it's such a big conversation to have and it's such a hard thing to know the right choice to make in that regard. Emma Williams: Totally. I think so, and particularly because the onus would be on me in terms of childcare, because the onus would be on James to be working and to be paying the bills, as it has been for six years. Because with all the best will in the world, you can want to work, but if the work doesn't want you, you can't get enough of the work. I was like a couple of years ago, I had this amazing week where I was suddenly filming both Emmerdale and EastEnders at the same time. Kim: Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, totally. ⁓ wow. Emma Williams: literally the same week. I'm like, this never happens, this is incredible. And then you go, and that didn't even pay enough to cover the mortgage for a month, of course. And now you can't go back to those soaps for a while. Kim: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. God damn. Do you find, do you prefer doing those shorter stints, do you prefer doing TV or shorter stints of theatre than a 12 month contract or is there a preference? Emma Williams: You know. I haven't had the opportunity to do a 12 month contract whilst I've had Izzy. I've got to finals for things and then just not got them. I haven't not been auditioning for them. I mean, there's been an insane amount of auditions and I've been very fortunate in that respect because I know it's been very, very quiet. But I mean, that is a broad spectrum across workshops, plays, TV, musicals, film, radio dramas, adverts, you know, it's a voiceover. It's been a very you know, throw it and see if something sticks. ⁓ Which I'm very grateful and I have the most incredible agent, Brooke Kinsella, who is amazing. She's about the same age. We both have kids around the same age. understands what it's like to be an actress and Ross is her assistant. ⁓ incredible. ⁓ ⁓ I'm with Soho Voices as well and they've been, they're really fluid and flexible and that's really helpful. ⁓ I think I can't fully comment on that until I've... ⁓ Kim: ⁓ yeah. Emma Williams: the opportunity to see what a 12-month contract would be. I think if I was offered a 12-month contract in the West End, my first thought these days would probably be like, I'd like a job share. I don't think it's outside the realms of acceptable to want that, to want to acknowledge the fact that we work anti-social hours and that a job share would benefit two people, particularly if you could get two mums to work a job that they love but with hours that are more suitable. Kim: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, completely. Yeah. Emma Williams: Shall we say, you know, if two people can co-parent a child, then show can co-host two It just ⁓ feels ⁓ and beneficial everybody in terms of mental health, as well as work-life balance. I think that is something that needs to be more and more prevalent. Kim: Yeah. You know, totally. Emma Williams: It's interesting now sort of being on the tour because Top Hat's like a show of two halves. It's very much a dance musical in the first half and then it becomes like this sort of farcical comedy in the second half and playing Madge I only appear in the second half. It is the first time in my career I turn up at the time that I'm called as opposed to an hour before to do makeup and hair prep. You know that hour that... Kim: Wow, yeah, yeah. Of course, you're just sitting in the theatre. Yeah, yeah. Emma Williams: most people having to do makeup and hair prep do for free because we know that if we don't do it then we won't have time to do it later it only takes ⁓ we need to just re-block this because so and so's off or we've had a bit of a ⁓ leak you're gonna have to hold off on warm up for five minutes ⁓ it takes one moment like that and ⁓ you be late and i can't handle that but so yeah i turn i turn up at the call time it's like amazing Kim: Yeah. Emma Williams: I spend Act 1 putting on my makeup and doing my hair, sometimes having my tea, maybe watching an episode of something, doing a puzzle. Last week I knitted a scarf. I feel like this is the best role. I'm having a lovely time being paid for two acts and only doing one. Don't tell them that. Oh god, they'll cut my wage. and also just doing something that's fun. Kim: ⁓ dream life! That's perfect though! That's a great- Yeah! That really is! I've got Yeah? Great! ⁓ Yeah, ⁓ no, nailed it! ⁓ Mm-hmm. Emma Williams: I think we've spent a lifetime so far playing enginu type roles, quite often needing rescuing. Damsel in distress, blah. That's why love roles like Maureen where they're a bit more ballsy. Same with that Jenny in Love story. They're just more fun. Playing girls who need to be rescued. But this is fun, just come on, be sardonic and a bit abrasive and it's just hilarious. I'm having a lovely time. More of that, definitely. And comedy just brings so much more joy and... Yes, it's really lovely. Kim: I mean you've got this so much variety I feel like you've got your fingers in all the pies there like you say with all even radios and know plays, theatre. Emma Williams: I mean I'm trying but let's be honest I haven't earned enough to pay tax for about five years. Which just says it all doesn't it? Kim: ⁓ tell me about it. Well, with all the... I keep taking maternity and I keep then getting really nervous about my tax bill and then I'm like, ⁓ it's alright, I've enough, I've not earned anywhere near enough. Yeah, it is. Emma Williams: Yeah, isn't that ridiculous? know, it's um, and scary because I'm a bit like, I think particularly like I have, James and I, it's my second marriage and not that there's anything wrong in our marriage and not that I am going anywhere but there's always a little part in the back of my mind when you've been divorced once that you go, okay what if something happened? Where's your safety net? And I'm like, I don't have one anymore. Kim: Yeah. Emma Williams: I need a safety net, just a case, know, just to stop you from feeling beholden. So it's really nice being on this job because I feel like I can pay properly into the mortgage and things like that. been doing the majority of the childcare for six years, know, which if I wasn't doing it, we'd have to pay for it. So, ⁓ know, it's all the unseen burden, shall we say. Like today, kind of having a day of admin whilst Izzy was in school, I just need to sign up to the government thing. ⁓ She needs to reply to that school email and that school email and oh does that still fit? And we need to book an appointment to check her school shoes still fit. Oh and have her do the school lunches for the next week and oh there's a bake sale on Friday we need cash for that. The mental load of motherhood is astonishing and you know I don't think anyone ever knows what busy is until they're a parent. Busy or tired. Kim: Endless. Yeah. Yeah, ⁓ completely. Emma Williams: I thought I was tied when I was 20. What an idiot. Kim: No, Emma Williams: was talking to one of the girls on top of the other day and she was like, well, I'm trying to get this flat. And I messaged them back to ask if they'd made a decision and she hasn't replied and it's been three days. Am I right? And she went, and I know she's a mum, but I don't understand that you wouldn't have five minutes in three days. And I went, I do. And she went, what do you mean? I went, it's not that you're constantly busy, but so you've got so many things in your brain that the time she probably remembers she owes you a message is half past midnight. And that would be inappropriate. to message because she doesn't know you well enough. I said, she's just overloaded. that's all it is. She's just overloaded. ⁓ And I could probably have said that to any mum and they go, ⁓ God, yeah, they'd absolutely understand it. ⁓ Kim: Yeah. Well particularly these days because there's that expectation with like with WhatsApp, you could get that amount of WhatsApps in. I feel like I get anxiety building up because I've not responded to that amount of people. And I'm, you know, I do try and respond, ⁓ ⁓ only so much you can do, Emma Williams: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, Yeah. it's I do remember the day as he ⁓ sort of voiced she was like, no, mommy, it's phone downtime now. Kim: hard. Sure. Emma Williams: And I'm like, and I think she'd heard it from someone else. I'm not the sort of person who's ⁓ in front of her anything. And I don't get that many messages. ⁓ not that. ⁓ I was like, wow, I think she was four at the time. And I was like, ⁓ Kim: Yeah. Emma Williams: that's hard to even hear. And as I say, it's probably something she'd heard elsewhere, because she does do quite a lot of echolalia and things like that. So that was quite hard to hear, because you go, oh my gosh, this is not something that we faced in our childhood. Devices were not there. Kim: Yeah. Emma Williams: Isn't that strange? mean, we are a board game family. We weren't before Izzy at all. And now ⁓ my is just with board games. She's obsessed with them. It's amazing. She asked me tonight if she could be taught how to play proper Monopoly instead of Monopoly Junior. And I'm like, okay, that's the next one. She knows how to play chess. ⁓ And she beat me the first time the other week. And I was like, I'm really proud of you, but I'm also quite upset. ⁓ Kim: yeah, yeah. nice yeah great Wow. Yeah. But I'm furious. Emma Williams: little bit furious, little bit furious. I mean, I now take her to bed and she reads me a story instead of me reading her. Which is lovely. It's really amazing. It is really amazing, but I also, I do miss it. then tonight when she wasn't sleeping, like going to sleep straight away, she went, you haven't sung me a bedtime song, mummy. And I'm like, no, I haven't for a long time though, is it? And she's like, what did you forget? I'm like, no, you just normally fall asleep. So she was like, can I have one tonight? I'm like, me, okay. Kim: Yeah. Gosh I look forward to that! Yeah. Emma Williams: Great, so it's like we're not done yet with those are we? That's good. ⁓ Kim: Love it. Isn't it funny though people used to pay a lot of money for this ⁓ and you like all the kids out there that are most of time they're saying shut up. never say Emma Williams: would either cover her ears or be like, no, mommy, no. So funny. But now, so it's like, so for a long time, it's like a concert came up. James would have to take her out of the house so that I could rehearse. Like everyone was doing concerts in COVID from home and I'm like, I can't, cause my kid won't let me sleep, let alone if I start warbling something in the tiny house that we have. know, it's the hilarity of it. And, but now, now she's like, now we'll, we can sing and we can sing together a bit and, ⁓ there will be times in the car she's like, but not you, mommy, not now. I'm like, okay, Moana can sing. Can mommy join in with Ray? Kim: ⁓ my god. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, no, it's very strict. Yeah. Emma Williams: Okay, I can join in with Ray. That's good. Thank you. It's very fun. But there were times I'd sit there and go, you know, people used to pay mommy a lot of money for this. And she'd look at me like, I don't believe you. Kim: Yeah, no it's humbling. It is humbling isn't it? Emma Williams: Yeah. Don't do the mummy. Okay, I won't do the voices. Kim: even reading a story, I feel like I'm giving it my all. I'm like, Kim, this isn't an audition. Why, ⁓ why are we doing the voices? Emma Williams: Mm. Kim: Yeah, So do you have, a career highlight that has been, you know, was one of the moments in your career, any time where you're like, oh, that was a really amazing, it doesn't have to be an entire job, but just like a moment, perhaps you're like, that feels pretty peak. Emma Williams: Love Story will always probably be like the best acting role I've ever had because it's so fully formed as a piece and being directed by Rachel Kavanaugh who understands direction and nuance and women in particular but also the reality of being a woman because we grow up with these stories of fairy tales and women being rescued and the romantic things and we love them. I love a rom-com. I love you know a women's fiction book where they fall in love and Kim: Okay, nice. Hmm. Emma Williams: ⁓ I all of that. I do. I'm a romantic at heart, but I'm also like really aware of the reality of this. And I just used to love Rachel in rehearsals with me and Michael's Ava and she'd be like, nope, too schmaltzy. And you'd like, okay. ⁓ And love her as a director because she'll offer us something. She'd be like, mm, ⁓ mm. and that's enough to know ⁓ what offered it was crap. ⁓ And come up with something different. ⁓ And I working with that woman. would work, I would walk over Colesford and I'd do any show she asked me to do, frankly. Hands down. think she's incredible. Kim: Yeah. Yeah. Emma Williams: And her together with Steve Ridley, her husband, who's the most incredible MD, as a partnership is just brilliant. think ⁓ always going to be a massive, ⁓ massive career highlight for me. I'm really proud of The Parole Officer because it was that film that got me an agent originally in London that opened so many doors. Because didn't go to drama school, I didn't ⁓ do of that kind of thing. I was straight and chitty at 18. And I'm so grateful they took a risk on me because it was a risk. Kim: pretty. Emma Williams: You it was unproven. I'd never done more than six shows in a week. Maybe eight at the Edinburgh Fringe, but never, you know, it's a totally different ballgame doing eight shows day in, day out. So that was incredible of them to take a risk on me. I'm grateful for this one for Top Hat because, you know, I'm going into a different phase of my career now. ⁓ female who are often comedy, more brash, Kim: Yeah. ⁓ yeah. Emma Williams: more just kind of sort broader, broader strokes. You've got to bring something more to it. I think they're harder to play and I love the fact that they, know, Sally Ann is amazing, this incredible woman and I've loved her and I've known her for years. Never worked with her but I think she's incredible. But there is an age gap between us so to take over from her was sort of a massive deal because I was like this is a big shift. Kim: Yeah. Emma Williams: This is going to feel like a big shift and I want to bring enough that you need for this cast of what they're expecting, but also enough that makes her, that makes Madge mine. And they've been so supportive and things, know, second week of rehearsals for me, Izzy was sick and I was like, she can't go to school. I've got, James is in rehearsals for cast change. need the day off. I'm really sorry. I'm really sorry. And they were like, no, we did a run through last week. It's cool. The team have been incredible with me in that respect. ⁓ Kim: Mm-hmm. Emma Williams: and I will give it my all. And I think that's the important thing. And weirdly, this is gonna sound really strange, I voiced a character, an animated character for a show called Rhyme Time Town. Just did two seasons and I voiced Mama Bunny and all of her children and a small mouse. Maybe a chicken as well. I forget. But I've always wanted to voice an animation. It's been such a, like, it's a massive thing to me to voice an animation. And it's interesting, think whenever you tick those little boxes off, you kind of just go, I just had a little box on the end now. now I've got things like, I'd like to do more radio drama. ⁓ like, I desperately love to be in the arches. I am absolutely showing my middle-agedness. I'd love to be in the arches. I'm obsessed with it. That was a COVID find. I am obsessed with it And I want to work with the Muppets. ⁓ That's probably the pipe dream one. Kim: yeah. ⁓ god, can see you. Yeah, no I can see that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nice. Emma Williams: I'd kill to work with the Muppets. The closest I've got is working with Louise Golden on a workshop and I fangirled over her like an insane woman the entire week. that's so cool. Kim: What amazing you've had. You've had such an incredible, like just, ⁓ I think industry lends itself to so many opportunities and you you say yes and you just have these amazing experiences. Emma Williams: Yeah. Yeah, I feel really fortunate. I think there's been a lot of luck that's come my way and a lot of opportunities that I've just kind of run with and taken while I've had the chance. There are still things that I've done that haven't worked out. You know, I wrote a book during Half a Sixpence and during my pregnancy and it did really quite well in the competitions and the unpublished and I got quite far down that line and had a book agent and it just all went a bit pear-shaped. I haven't managed to write since and I desperately love to get back to writing and I can't quite find my creative flow yet. And currently I can't just come up with a book idea. ⁓ I'd to do that. mean, people always say about writing your own because in like shows and things. ⁓ But someone said to me, which character are you in the book? And I deliberately wrote a book where there was no character I could play if they dramatized it. And I didn't realize I'd done that until I examined it. And I was like, ⁓ Kim: God. okay. Emma Williams: I'm not writing something for me to be in. I'm writing something for the creative joy of writing it and these characters. am not ⁓ of these characters. There's a part of me in all of them, but I'm not a specific one. And I think that's it. I don't... Writing a piece of work for me to appear in makes me twitch. that's again, I that throws back to the idea of I don't want to be on stage. I want to be characters. ⁓ I want to behind them and bring their lives ⁓ to life. ⁓ maybe that's Kim: Mm-hmm. which I think is a common misconception about actors. I think there's that whole thing of like, well, you're all attention seekers. And it's like, hold I think there's a lot of extroverted introverts in ⁓ the ⁓ Emma Williams: I say yeah. Yeah, I think, I do genuinely think you fall into two categories. ⁓ That you're either really, and I think that's why things like doing concerts, I love a concert, but they scare the crap out of me, if I'm honest. And I do love doing it. It's the same with teaching. And I think with teaching in particular, we all say that we're all frauds and we're all gonna get discovered one day. And I think particularly with teaching, I often feel that because I didn't go to drama school. I trained as a singer. I did my grades, as it were. I didn't like go to a college and train as a singer. Kim: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Okay. Emma Williams: I went to a local dance school and I went to a local drama group where we did singing and dancing. I never did the drama classes stage 84 where I'm now a patron of. But I have no actual qualifications in acting. So then when I'm going into a school to teach, I'm like, why are you listening to me? I did all my training on the job and it's valid. But at the same time you do... Kim: Yeah, but you've got the experience. Emma Williams: You do feel a bit of because I'm there going, what do you normally do in a lesson? How does it work? You know, how should a lesson be? You know, I could tell you how a Latin lesson should be done or a French lesson. I did those. Kim: Yeah, no it Yeah. See, Latin, where did you go to school? Emma Williams: I went to North Halifax Grammar School in Halifax. So yeah, an 11 plus school. I did, but I was going to be a translator. That was what my degree was supposed to be in. So I did French, German, Latin, Business Studies and General Studies A levels. And ⁓ second year of A levels from the September through to December, I made a movie, ⁓ back to school, did my, did A level mocks and failed them all. ⁓ Apart general studies. ⁓ Kim: nice. Right. ⁓ wow! Yeah, well, you know, did a movie. Nice. Emma Williams: and then took another week off to go and film an episode of Heartbeat. So I had a place at Harriet Watt in Edinburgh to study the interpretation and translation of medieval and modern languages. ⁓ Yeah, no, it's so weird. And it's like a whole other side of my life. And then the film came out in the August and an agent offered me representation, a big agent who repped most of the film and they'd offered me representation during filming. And I was like, no, I'm going to go back to school, get my A levels because I should. Kim: giddy aunt didn't see that coming yeah Emma Williams: I mean, when say luck has kind of fallen into my lap, I'm going, no, no, no, this way. And then, ⁓ yeah, signed to and my first audition was Mamma Mia. The following day I auditioned for Chitty and I never got to my Mamma Mia recall. I did three auditions for Chitty in 10 days and they signed me as I left the audition room the third time. Like they offered me the job in the lift and they wouldn't let me leave the building until I'd signed the contract. ⁓ Kim: Yeah. Wow. Wow. Oh my god, it's like the stuff of dreams. I remember reading it in the newspaper, like looking at you being 18. I remember, and I'm genuinely being so inspired, thinking, oh my god, there's an 18 year old playing truly scrumptious. It was brilliant. No, it was brilliant. Emma Williams: It's mad when I think about it now. I'm glad I didn't realise quite how mad it was at the time because I think if I had, I would have been so overwhelmed. I would have imploded. ⁓ Yes, and the naivety. Kim: That's the confidence of youth though, isn't it? I feel like I've just got... That's it. When I graduated I was so gung-ho and then now I'm... ⁓ gosh, I'm just anxious of everything. Emma Williams: I think the more auditions you do, that fear never leaves you. It grows as you get older because you know what is on the line because you've had a taste of it and you want more of it. And then you also realize how big the competition is and how hard the competition is. And I've seen then as you get older and you have mortgages and you have responsibilities or you have, you know, people who are reliant on you, it becomes harder again because Kim: Hmm. Emma Williams: you can't ever get away from that. Just the same as, you know, when you get an advert audition through and it tells you what the money is, you're already spending it before you've even sent the self-tape. I think on other side of it, you're like, ⁓ God, if I get this job, isn't this 12 months in this, this will make something so much easier. But you're also going, okay, how would we work the childcare and how would we do that? And how would we do this? I think that was probably the good thing with Top Hat. happened fast, I didn't have time to think. It was like, Kim: completely. Emma Williams: do I want to do this? Can we make this work? Sod it, we'll make it work. Because, you know, for the last two years, I was hitting something like two years ago and I had, made it, everyone was doing those things of how many auditions I did this year, how many recalls I did, blah, blah, blah. And I was like, oh, I'll just make a list and see how it goes. And I, at the end of that year, went, that was a stupid thing to do because that's depressing. I think I did 69 auditions and got three jobs. And those three jobs. Kim: You Emma Williams: paid probably about a total of £2,000. And that's a lot. Yeah, the reality of it. Yeah, it's, and I'm so grateful for all the auditions, all the opportunities, but they are only opportunities unless you can plant them. And last year was probably something similar. but you have to kind of ⁓ find that ⁓ weird kind strength inside just let it roll off and... ⁓ Kim: It's so good to hear it though. Yeah, yeah, like it's Mm-hmm. Emma Williams: just keep going, because otherwise ⁓ you'll implode. really will. And ⁓ it's rejection you're not good. It's just rejection because you're not right. ⁓ it's just not your Kim: I think that's thing that's come with age as well. I used to always, you if I didn't get a job or didn't get a recall, you're always going, oh, what did I do wrong? I did something wrong. You know, you're trying to, oh, I must have cracked. And then now I'm like, oh, I just wasn't right. Oh, you know, I was shit. But there's a little bit more oh, I understand why, the jigsaw or something. Emma Williams: Yeah. ⁓ And also that thing of knowing when to ask for feedback and when there will be no feedback that they can give you or whether to just not bother asking for feedback because sometimes it can be more destructive than positive. I think this is the problem with the self-tape. ⁓ The is a great thing if it stops you having to pay £30 for a train fare because you don't live in London anymore. It's a great thing if all they want is a very quick, ⁓ you Kim: Yeah. Emma Williams: just give us your profile, tell us a joke, whatever, you know. It's when you get the self-tape through for the advert where they want you to do 14 different setups and have you doing a salt course around your garden and you're like, I don't even have a garden. You know, could you do a full length shot? No, there isn't space in my house for this. We really want to see you eat this product. You don't even sell this product yet. How do I do this? Those extreme requests that you want to do a good job because you desperately want to get it. I filmed like many movies. I'm like, I've basically done your advert for you and I still know I'm not going to get it. Kim: Yeah. Yeah. Emma Williams: They're bad, but also then the other side of things where you're like, I'm auditioning for something and I get why this is a self-tax, it's a tiny role in something and you don't want to drag me in for three lines, but I haven't got enough to work with. don't know who this character is. So I'm making a real stab in the dark, but I know if I was in the room with the director, he could tell me a bit more information. He or she could, you know, you know, could go actually try it like this or try it like that. you have a to show some personality, you know, I'm a nice person to work with or, you know, I'm not the right person for you. We don't, we don't rubber along right. You can't do that with self-tape. It's so one-sided that it's, I just find that it's not useful for acting because acting is reacting. You can't react to something if you're not being given something back. And I think particularly when you've got to someone to read with and now my husband for the best will in the world is great for reading with but you crap at accents. Kim: quickly. You Emma Williams: And I'm like, please don't try. Or he'll want to give me acting notes. And I'm like, don't do that. That's not helpful. You know, and it's all those little barriers to it. Kim: You Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Emma Williams: They come in, you know, 5pm the night before and they want it by 12 the next day. And even with Top Hat when it came in, it came on a Friday night very late. I went, ⁓ I really want to take this. This is fantastic. But Kim: Yes, Emma Williams: they aren't going to get anything. I know they're saying ASAP, it's said it's going to be Monday lunchtime because Izzy is off school now till Monday. And I don't have until Monday lunch. And it was, literally went, they're going to get one take of everything because that's all we've got time to do because I've got to get to somewhere else. And thankfully the creative gods were with me that day. But if they hadn't been, it would have been gutting. But I wonder if, yeah. Kim: Sometimes it's easier though, just that one take, because otherwise you end up doing it six, seven times. Yeah, and you're like, ⁓ yeah, yeah, yeah. Emma Williams: you don't overthink it. Yeah. And then it's your editing skills and you know put an ident on it and all those extra hours that it takes that compared to spending half an hour on a train getting your head in the game walking into a room for 15 minutes and walking back out again yeah it cost me 30 40 quid but I was focused on just that for that time and I didn't have to do anything other than be an actor Kim: Yeah, yeah, sorry. the vibe thing is ⁓ important. Emma Williams: Yeah, it's really important. Even down to, there was an advert I did several years ago but the final was a Zoom audition. So I had everything set up and I had it so that I couldn't see my screen. I put a post-it note over that bit, because you just get distracted. Kim: Yeah. Emma Williams: And the director talking me through, like, and he's like, what we're gonna do is I'm literally gonna talk to you and be like, okay, now I you to look to your left and you see the man who's got this. He said, I'm just gonna blank out my voice at the end to watch it back. It was amazing because he was getting what he needed and I was getting what I needed and we were kind of creating it together because. was no way to get all of those timings bang on right without somebody feeding it back to you in a self-tip situation. I mean Zoom and you know video call auditions I think should be more of a thing. You're saving the money of the travel but scheduling the time. Kim: We're still having a chat. yeah. ⁓ Emma Williams: Yeah, still able to do that thing and, you know, but more fluidity with it. Kim: yeah, I've not heard many Zoom auditions, but I appreciate that. Yeah, that's a good point. Emma Williams: No, I've only done I think two or three, but they've been really helpful because they've been much more, much more engaged. And I've sort of said every time that they've had, I'm like, I'm really grateful for this because the self tape is so disjointed and removed from anything creative, because how I view my face and how somebody else views it, totally different things, you know, because you're critiquing. Kim: Yeah. Yeah. That's good point. Yeah, yeah. Emma Williams: not only your acting choices but like, what am I doing there? That looks weird. That doesn't look like me. And was the good thing with this, with Top Hat it was so fast. I genuinely thought it would be like, in the next stage will be an audition, like in person. And they're like, no, here's the job offer. was like, ⁓ okay. Hmm, who knew? ⁓ And then I remember watching the back and going, that a really lovely tape to get to do. I'm still wearing my Christmas hair bow. I'm like, ⁓ my. Kim: brilliant. ⁓ that's excellent. Yeah. Emma Williams: God, I look like such a dick. Well, hopefully they'll find it charming. Yeah, apparently so. Kim: Yeah, apparently they did. Yeah. Yeah. In of just support ⁓ parents in the industry, is there that you think could be to support parenting? Emma Williams: I think giving more notice for auditions will be a massive help because as you say that assumption when you give someone two days, three days to look at script, we know that two days, three days can disappear in the blink of an eye if you have anyone that you're caring for, whether that's a child or an elderly relative or Just more notice, I do miss the days when scripts used to come in the post and you had a week or two weeks notice for an audition because you had to rely on the post and the post getting there and the script turning up and having the time to sit with it. think technology is an amazing thing, but the immediacy of it is not helpful to anyone in this business because creativity is something that takes time to brew. Kim: Yeah. Yeah. Emma Williams: characters take time to develop. We've all known that when they do 12 months on a show and three months in you're like, ah, now I know who it is. I think more time for parents, more openness for job shares, not only just for moms, but for dads as well. Kim: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Emma Williams: I think that's really hard when you have two actors in a family because end up doing that thing of I'll take a job, you take a job, but that only if the jobs turn up. We know that. I think a greater awareness of what childcare costs ⁓ would be useful.