Ann: 'Cause you know how we're always managing several beverages? I'm like, I'm drinking orange juice today. Isn't that weird? No. Matthew Brooks: Whoa. And I'm guessing you got that from Ruckus, right? Ann: No. my daughter and I went out to breakfast this morning and she got an orange juice and she left it in the car and I was like, That sounds refreshing. Matthew Brooks: That that makes sense. I was like Anne would not just go out of her way to get an orange juice. Ann: Well, I also never like I was like, this is weird that I'm an adult Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: drinking this is like I wonder if my you know how you know how there was that reel that you sent me. Hi everybody. There was that reel Matthew Brooks: Hi. Ann: there was that reel that you sent me that was like you can judge a therapist by how many beverages they have. Matthew Brooks: yeah. Ann: So this orange juice was out in my last session with my coffee and my water. And I was like, I w wonder if this client is judging me off of this orange juice. Like, I've known them forever but I feel like they're like, Why is Anne drinking orange juice? Is she okay? Is she like Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: Is she feeling under the weather? Does she Matthew Brooks: Needs a little vitamin C. Ann: Everyone's gonna like, What's so weird about orange juice? I don't know nothing. why do I think I Matthew Brooks: Nothing. Ann: think it's I think it's weird that I'm drink I just I think it's weird for me. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Well it's just coffee and water that you drink. Ann: Yeah, that's Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Ann: it. So switching it up. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: How's it going? How how many we ha Matt, you and I have actually talked multiple times over the last forty eight hours, but like Matthew Brooks: Yes. Ann: we haven't talked about this i as far as being therapists. How much has this full moon rocked everybody's freaking world? Like Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Rockedr Rocked the World is a very good way of saying that. 'Cause for everybody else out there, I f I I fell down. Shall we see that thing Ann: yeah. This is this happened. Matthew Brooks: you do? Ann: Well yeah, I was yeah. I was gonna I was talking about Matthew Brooks: Chad fell down. Ann: like with clients that in practice 'cause we always talk about how it inter but Matt, you did get rocked. Matthew Brooks: I got rocked. And it was nobody else's fault. It was me hurting myself. so it was Ann: But not in a like call call crisis kind of way. In a accident kind of way. We have to make the distinction. This is Matthew Brooks: Not yeah, it it was not a self harm. This was purely accidental. I was helping the Ann: kind of a therapy podcast. Matthew Brooks: This is kind of a kind of a podcast. but no, I was helping my kiddo brush their teeth and I was bent down, like assisting them, and I went and stood up like full stand up like into the older medicine cabinet that has a sharp edge and bonked Ann: Mm. Matthew Brooks: my head. And when I say bonked my head is I hit it so hard that I immediately started bleeding and seeing stars. And I was like, We need to get you to your mom right now. Ann: Yeah. Matthew Brooks: So I was able to get my kid down the stairs and everything. And I was like, I hit my head and then I remember waking up in the ambulance. And that was like the time travel moment. Scared the crap out of mom. Who did end up calling the ambulance 'cause they're like, I don't know what to do with you and and now have four staples in my head. Ann: Which is insane. That's an insane amount of staples. And all that you Matthew Brooks: Which also Yeah. Ann: told me is you sent me a selfie with a dinosaur bandage on your head. And you're like, I hit my head. Like, Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. They're like, hey, we have Dino. I was like, great. Cool. That like my kid's gonna love that, you know, kind of a thing. Yeah, so it was it wa I I was physically exhausted because the wifey said like I pass thankfully I was sitting in a chair, but I passed out and it was the like tongue swallowing kind of like like breathing. eyes just dilated out to oblivion. And then here here's the best part of it is like the caretaker personality that I am. Like wifey was legit like panic slapping me in the face to wake me up. and then I just popped up and I was like, What's up? What's wrong? Why you upset? Everything okay? Like What's up? You know, like nothing's wrong. I'm trying to play this off kind of a thing. And she very much is like, We need to get you to the couch. Like you're in a dining chair right now. We need to get you to the couch. Ann: Mm-hmm. Matthew Brooks: So I like stood up and immediately just got like wobbly and everything. according to her, 'cause I don't remember any of it. And then I laid on the couch and then there were eight paramedics that came into the tiny living room that still had last night's cause we were traveling over the weekend, like suitcase with like these clothes are going down to the wash and like this stuff is going Ann: Yeah. Matthew Brooks: here, all in the living room. So it made it even smaller and And then the kiddo was like, cool, people are here. It's a party, like let me dump all my toys out so you guys can play with them. While they were trying to assess me, there's just like Legos and like noise pollution that's going on while they're they're doing this. And then the whole neighborhood, like the block is like, Why are there paramedics outside with the lights on and everything? And I got taken out on a stretcher and yeah. Ann: You were the talk of the town. Matthew Brooks: But Ann: We are all glad we are all glad you're okay and there's something wrong with you and I that when you told me this story I was like, whoa dude Nice Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Whoa. Ann: nice dinosaur. No, I was legitimately Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yeah. Ann: concerned. But we do receive crisis information differently. Matthew Brooks: Yes. Yes. Well the best Ann: Yeah. Matthew Brooks: part was they were like when I started to like actually come to, they're like, so what year is it? And I'm like, I don't like I had to stop and think for a second and I was like, twenty twenty six, okay. Like it was Ann: Here I am. Matthew Brooks: all just like slowly coming back and then once we got to the the hospital, like the doctors and stuff were like, So the paramedic said you passed out and I like, Okay And they're like, How long did you pass out? I was like I don't even know how it got here. Like I don't know how long I was out. Like I I just time traveled. I'm literally a time traveler now. Ann: Yeah. Matthew Brooks: So it it took a bit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Ann: This has been my dream, but not in this way. I wanted to be more aware. Matthew Brooks: I thought it'd be qu way cooler. Ann: I thought it'd be way cooler than this. Matthew Brooks: so there were there was that bit of it, but the other fun part was I already had Monday scheduled off because we were traveling over the weekend and I was like I just like showing up for clients, I don't want to be like tired and I can like do notes and like get some office work done and take an easy day on Monday and then I crack my head open at seven AM. so my whole day was shot. But it was nine o'clock. I was in the emergency room and my phone was blowing up. And I was just like, W who is this? And I could see because of how my office in the building works is like you have to come up to the building and then like hit the office button to like meet for me to buzz you in. But it's one that calls my phone. So a client was waiting at the door at my office. Like trying to buzz in repeatedly. While like I have the dinosaur bandage on my head and I was just like I hand it to my wife and I was just like you may have to get on and like talk to them because I am in no shape to talk to them and tell them like we're not meeting right now. Ann: Yeah. Matthew Brooks: but like I that happens with some clients who forgot they canceled the session or forgot it was cancelled Ann: When Matthew Brooks: and they show up, right? And I live close enough to the office that I can do it. But that day I'm like, nah. So then I got an email later and I was like, I was in the emergency room, you know. I didn't even dress like we weren't scheduled today. I was just like, I was in the emergency room, I apologize, Ann: You're like Matthew Brooks: like we didn't meet. Like kind of a thing. But it's going back to that like therapists what happens when we need to be taken care of? Like when we are the patient and like when I see my therapist, that is something wholly different, right? But I was still trying to run stuff and even like when the missus was like waking me up, I'm like, everything's fine, it's cool, like caretaker personality, but like what is that like for you to be taken care of and like you like be the patient? Ann: pretty bad at it. But I I Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: all I would like to add to it, I think what you're also talking about is and we've talked about this before, but like the you also have to be business owners at that Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: place. if you have your own practice, if you're a private practice. and sometimes not, like sometimes you're still managing, like even if you're contracted or like right, you're still managing appointments and scheduling and whatever. And it's like, wait a second, I need to think about all of these things that aren't even just meeting with my clients and I am in crisis or I am in need or I am and it is sometimes as Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: we're not good at taking our cares care of ourselves, right? But I think that I think that I have learned that learned to be better at and learned that clients are a lot more receptive than you first think when you leave grad school that's like, Matthew Brooks: yeah. Ann: hey, I'm I'm I don't have childcare today. Like that used to be a stressor for me to say and now I'm just like my sitter cancelled and everyone's like, okay. Like we'll meet next Matthew Brooks: Yeah, it's so human. Ann: week. Because yeah, because you have an established relationship but also you've kind of like Grown as a clinician and a person and blah blah blah blah. But when you're in crisis, we are really bad at asking for the Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Ann: for help to the point of you were still figuring out how to respond to that buzz it. Where a lot of Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yeah. Ann: people in the same situation wouldn't even be like, we need to respond to this. Like they would be like, Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: okay, I'll explain that tomorrow. Like Matthew Brooks: Yeah, yeah. Ann: Like it's the differences in textures, you know? It's like somebody texts and like you don't hear back from them for like days and you're like, that's just you had a lot on your plate. Whereas for me as a therapist and business owner, I'm like, this person needs this response is important. I need to respond to this one. The text from my sister, I don't know, st she's fine. But like we we Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yeah. Even the texts between you and I were like, yeah, I'll get to that and then it was like, shit, I forgot to get to that. Yeah. Ann: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. But I think that we prioritize differently and I don't think that we s switch off like even in crisis, even that situation that you're in, we don't switch off the client work brain or business Matthew Brooks: Mm. Ann: brain once we're running our own businesses as easily. and people feel like there's a lot of talk about that 'cause it's like, you should have boundaries and blah blah blah. And I totally believe that and support it. You should. But when you're also running a business and your Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Ann: livelihood depends on it and that's your full salary that's supporting you and your family, you do still, you know, it's like any other business owner. Well I I do have to put this fire out and I'm the fire. Ha ha ha. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yeah. Ann: It's a weird balance. Matthew Brooks: Yeah, and like How do we turn it off? Can we turn it off? I don't think we can. Ann: Well I Matthew Brooks: I don't think it'll actually ever turn off. Ann: do you ever have this conversation with clients when somebody's sharing a difference in thinking of either their spouse, partner, friend, coworker, whatever, and they're like, How could they not empathize with this? How could they not be thinking Matthew Brooks: yeah. Ann: that this is impacting me or kids or whatever. And I'm I'm reminding people and myself all the time. Not everybody thinks the same way. Some people can shut it off. Like we've talked about before. Some people don't actually have an inner monologue, which I think the majority of therapists do. But like some people don't can jump from one box to another. They're not all intermingled. People think differently and as humans we always assume that everybody is processing The same way that we do, but they're not. Like, and that's a really hard lesson to learn, and it's one that you continuously learn throughout life. And so sometimes to answer your question, like sometimes I'm like, man, I wish I was one of those people that Matthew Brooks: Mm. Ann: could just stay in one box sometimes. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: Like, I would love to be able to, and there's gonna be someone that's be well, Anne, you can with treatment. Maybe a different medication. no, I'm just kidding, kind of. But like, I wish that I could just sit on the couch and sit on the couch and watch TV. And not have the to do list Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: running through my brain. I think that's part parenting, part business owner, part therapist. I wish I could do that. So, me and you, maybe it's not possible, but I do think people do it. I think that some people are more capable. There it's not as Matthew Brooks: Well yeah, and I think that's also the same way of like some people are like 'cause I've gotten this starting the business. Like having it's been literally a year. It'll be a year tomorrow. Ann: Yay, Matt. Matthew Brooks: Yay. But some people are like, I I could never do that. I could never just launch a business and and start it, you know. Yeah. Ann: A year tomorrow? That's crazy. Matthew Brooks: No, I know. Actually I I just realized that looking at the date. Like I s said it out loud and and thought of that. Yeah. It's a year tomorrow. Hey. Ann: Matt, we're celebrating you today in this podcast. Good job. But yeah. It'll be a year for Matthew Brooks: It is like Ann: the podcast in September. Matthew Brooks: Think so, yeah. I know. Happy birthday, right? Ann: Okay. Matthew Brooks: We should have a birthday party for the podcast. Ann: Okay. Should we make hats? Matthew Brooks: You should make a cake. Ann: No. Matthew Brooks: Ha ha ha! Anyways, well that's been what's been going on with me and like that kind of topic made me made me think about it. But what's been going on with you with the crazy moon moon cycle? That you can talk about on the podcast. Ann: Ha ha. Matthew Brooks: you know. Ann: Just live in life. Just live in life over here. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: no, I I I know that we half joke, half serious, talk about how that's something that all of us mental health professionals like definitely have had a conversation with once or twice in our lives. That's like, okay, there's a thing here. Like if you're working inpatient or schools Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Ann: or the conversation has happened, must be a full moon. Like, even the comment. This one was rocking. Like Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Ann: was on vacation last week and to comment on like your thing too, even though you can tell people you're out for vacation a million times, there's always one or two. They're like, we Matthew Brooks: yeah. Ann: meet we meeting today? Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: Not unless you want to see the insanity of my family behind me. Which I don't Matthew Brooks: Ha ha ha. Ann: think you would like to participate in. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: no, so like that was part of it. I hit a d a deer hit me. On the highway. Matthew Brooks: yeah. my gosh, I forgot about that. You told me that was going Ann: This ru this Matthew Brooks: up to you that was like the starting of your vacation, right? Ann: Yeah, so that's part of the full moon. wait, I do have to share this story. And maybe this is what happens to therapist kids or maybe just like my kids, like raising kids as emotionally aware but also like maybe also a little desensitized. I know what's going on. So we hit the deer. The Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: deer goes flying. It was actually not a like could have been wor could have been way worse 'cause we were on the highway. And so the deer's dead. Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. So wait, the deer the deer hit you and went flying. Ann: Yeah, it was running across the highway and I saw it, so I started to brake, but I don't know if you've ever been in that situation. It's like unavoidable 'cause there Matthew Brooks: yeah. Ann: were other cars. The cars behind me b braked and they pulled over, like, to see if we were good or whatever. Anyway, the deer hit like my front like Kinda my door front like my side a little bit, but I had slowed down. Matthew Brooks: Okay. Ann: I tried to swerve like the anyways, it went off this way into the road. And my daughter goes, What just happened? And I was like, We had a deer. Like real, Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: like calm. Everything we had a deer. It's fine. I'm gonna Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yeah. Ann: pull over. And my son, Is it dead? Is it dead? Is it dead? And I was like, Yeah. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: Like We it is dead. And Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: mommy will call to let someone know that there's a dead deer so that nobody else you blah blah blah blah blah. So then we there's a rest stop a little bit further down. And my sister and her Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: children are fall are like a couple exits behind. So I'm like, we're pulling over the what this just happened. We pull off. And I'm Taking pictures, you know, you do the whole accident thing. I look over and my s mom and sister are standing with the kids, the all of the children, and there are th Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: two children and my mother holding my son by all like two arms and two legs, swinging him, saying, We got the dead deer, we got the dead deer And they were like Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: Playing dead deer, which Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: is kind of hilarious. And then my sister was like, Do you see what's going on over there? I was like, Yeah, and she started videoing it, and then so they would he would my son would fall to the ground, and then he would pop up and gallop around like a deer, and then it's on video. It's Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: so funny. My daughter ran would hit him and he would fall over and go, Bah And my niece would be like, Dead deer and then they would come and clean up the dead deer. And I was like, Matthew Brooks: Nice. Ann: What kind of fucked up game? Did did my mother encourage this? Like what is going on? But Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yeah. Ann: I'm like taking pictures and reporting the claim 'cause now you can just like do it on your phone. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: Anyways, that was how they dealt with the crisis. Matthew Brooks: I mean they were processing the trauma. Yeah. Ann: They were working from it. We talked about it. I was like, I guess they're fine. They're not concerned. This is a game. so so yeah, so that was I chalked that up to the full moon, vacation family, vacation, family, vacation and then so I came I I got back this week and I'm s talking like day one of getting back. Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Ann: Clients, everybody's ex everybody's getting hit. It's just I'm wait I would like Matthew Brooks: yeah. Ann: to feel a balance because it's been crisis, miscommunication, scheduling it like everything. So and it's really it's like a heavy one. It's like it's like undeniably the energy is off. So Matthew Brooks: yeah, like I had a client who contact me on like a Saturday and was like I'm in crisis. Not like full blown like hospitalization Ann: Yeah, yeah. Matthew Brooks: crisis, but they're like I need to process and talk because of this specific thing and I was like, Yeah, like I'm free right now. Like I right now I am free. So you either see me Yeah. Ann: Yeah. Hi. let's talk about let's talk about that. We haven't touched Matthew Brooks: Okay. Ann: on this yet, maybe, that I can remember, but I'm a goldfish. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: But are you a what's your gauge of 'cause obviously we all have to be available for crisis call if needed or we have to Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Ann: send or support if we're not like, you know. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: But what's your gauge? Like you how do you navigate that? When somebody is like, I need to talk right now. Matthew Brooks: Most of the time I don't have clients with that high of acuity that so I and I knew specifically like this person because I've had a rapport with them, when they reach out, I'm like, Okay, like you you are in need. But even this person, like, knowing 'cause I I've worked in places where it is like higher suicidality rates, higher impulsivity, you know, things like that where it is like you have to kind of step out and answer the call Ann: Yeah. Matthew Brooks: and do wellness checks and get somebody like a support person on the phone in their system to go, you need to take them to the hospital now, right? So I've done that. but the the patients I have now don't usually reach out to say like I need a session right now. It's usually like, hey, can I schedule an extra session in the week? And I'm like, yeah, are you in crisis right now? And they're like, no, I just need to process something. And like they'll schedule for like the next day and stuff. So I don't have to think about it too too much in like with the clientele I have right now. But yeah, before it was like I gotta take it. Ann: I yeah, I'm in a similar boat. So s something that happens with me, because of some of the populations that I work with at Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: during the initial like first couple sessions, maybe first couple months of sessions, there's a higher need. and it's not, you Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: know, it's it's it's not like I'm 302ing, but it is things that I would put in the category of like a crisis that I would make time for. but I obviously have like and if I'm not available call these numbers or I but Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: I I sometimes have to take a few step outside and take a few calls before I can figure out how to gauge people. And then I I also do Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: the I don't know if any other therapists do this or if you do this. Like if I know it's not a harm to self or other situation or anybody's in danger or like whatever. It's the give it an hour or two wait. Matthew Brooks: Uh-huh. Ann: Like they call, email, and it's like I need to talk right now. This is what's going on. You skim it and you're like, this might pass Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: in I guess still support, but like this might not feel like an emergency once you get home after your work day or whatever. And I'll do that. Matthew Brooks: Yeah, I've definitely had clients who have reached out multiple times. Like it became a pattern where they're like, I need something right now and then once I like get to them or because sometimes I would be in a session, so it would be an hour wait and then I'd be like, Hey you can't respond Ann: Yeah. Yeah, you can't respond. I mean you're not Matthew Brooks: and then it's like, Hey, I'm available now, like everything okay? And they're like, yeah, like I was having a moment, I was Ann: How good? Matthew Brooks: like, Do you wanna schedule something for later? You know. Ann: And I I do have Matthew Brooks: So there's been some of those. Ann: yeah, and I think that that's also like I do think that something comes into play here which is understanding of diagnosis and I do have Bipolar clients at the moment Matthew Brooks: Yes. Ann: and who I love and I you also have to remember that sometimes with certain diagnoses or even I won't I'm not even gonna give that diagnosis assignment. I'm gonna say just in general, maybe even history, attachment issues, Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Ann: you do have to establish trust sometimes by Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Ann: validating that that need is a need and returning the call, the crisis call, to get to the place that you're talking about where you're like, okay, I know them and I can let this one go and almost even then have a relationship with them where you're like, Do you let's take a step back. Is this a one to ten? And Matthew Brooks: Yes. Ann: what do you think? 'Cause I I have someone I'm working with now that we you know, I'll get that reach out and once I get to it I'll be like, okay, where are you at now? And nine Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: times out of ten we're back at a two or three and we can Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Ann: wait till session. But even checking in is something that that client needs to further build a therapeutic relationship but also keep working towards their goals, which is it's kind of our job to remind them how to use their tools so that then they can use them themselves. And so we do have to step in and respond. But some people have pretty strict, stricter than me, I think. Or maybe not. But people are certain therapists are pretty like sometimes they draw the line differently. Like, I'm at work, I'm at work. Christmas crisis. no calls after Matthew Brooks: Yeah. So it well, even Ann: nine PM, which I get. I mean I'm asleep. I'm not I you don't want Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Like I'm not gonna answer it if I'm asleep, right? Ann: to talk to me after Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: seven, probably. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. but I will say, like, lit well, let's step back and clarify all of this. So if we're having like the younger therapists or therapists who are just starting out, like They're like, great, that's good advice. So what do I do? Like, what do I do I always call back? Do I always check in? Do I always let it go? Like, kind of a thing. And I part of it is what we're saying, at least for for me, is build your instinct. Like as a therapist, a a baby therapist, like you are building your therapeutic instincts as well. But when you have clients who reach out because they will, like statistically speaking, the longer you stay in this field the more you're gonna have off our phone calls, right? So it is building your boundary but also like I do always touch base, right? If somebody reaches out, I will try to reach back to them within twenty four hours. Like if it's a weekend or something, Ann: Mm yeah. Matthew Brooks: like if it's a Saturday and I'm away all day or whatever, you know, I'll try to reach out to even on Sunday. But usually it's within like an hour or two I will be able to reach them. If it's a work day I'm like in between clients, I could I could do something. But always touching base to gauge what's going on, right? that's where Ann: And that's a Matthew Brooks: I go from that. Ann: and like you said, you're building that, but you're also learning to trust it. Matthew Brooks: Yep. Ann: I think that a huge a lot of therapists that I have supervised through their license and even the girls that are at the office now who some are like newly licensed, or going through different licensures, it it is really It's a giant piece of a therapist's growth to trust your instincts with clients because you're given all of this information in grad school, Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Ann: you wanna do the right thing. You understand the background, the diagnoses, the Matthew Brooks: Mm. Ann: shoulds, shouldn't's blah blah blah blah blah. blah. You have the information but when you're in it, you question yourself on what call to make. I think that ninety percent Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: of the conversations that I have for supervision is like, this is this tough case and I just don't know how to respond to and it's and it's oftentimes not even the client like respond to this parent. Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Ann: set a boundary. Like it it it nine times out of ten isn't not yeah. I guess Matthew Brooks: Yes. Yeah. The parents are reaching out if it's a child. Ann: if we're talking about kids like parents, but I'm what I kind I meant like not even about the client, but not even about like the content. It's like how Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: do a time boundary. They they keep stepping over that. They're emailing often. Look at this email. It's four paragraphs long. How do I respond Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: to it? It's the it's that therapeutic instinct that we're not really you can't teach that. You kind of have to gain experience and learn how to trust Matthew Brooks: No. Yeah. Ann: yours because you need to trust that when you read that four paragraph email that the majority of it du is just a venting and doesn't need a response and you can probably respond with thanks so much for sharing that with me. We'll discuss this next session. Now I have the information. Like period end. That's all Yeah. Well well yeah. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. You can't do anything with it. You can't vent back, you know. Ann: Yeah. my gosh, let me tell you what's going on. No, but I Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Like you can't do that. And Ann: mean like I think that I think that that takes time for new clinicians or clinicians to gate to trust themselves because it took me a while to be like, Yeah, that email isn't Not that nothing's not important, but like that email is not the top of the priority and I can just respond with two or three sentences because I'm gonna see them for session in three days. And none of that is an emergency. Or I Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: am absolutely allowed to be like, hey, this is heavy. We've got to end session in the next ten minutes because there is somebody scheduled Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Ann: and we have to be respectful of that time. But here's what we can do, because this is a lot. Like you have to learn how to be confident in that. And that's what a large part of my supervision is. So you have to learn learning helping people learn how to trust that instinct. Matthew Brooks: Yeah, absolutely. And I I think one of the parts that you got onto as well was I like when I was working in different practices where I was the I don't know what you call it, but like the middle veteran. Like there were clinicians that were older than me that had been in the field longer, but then there was like me and then there were the younger ones, and the younger ones, you know, since I was still kind of at the same level as them, they would ask me questions or they would see how I would be interacting with family where say the parent is in the waiting room and they are they just want to talk and vent and and everything and I stop them and I say, like this seems like this should be a full session I have another client, so let's schedule something to do. And the younger ones are like, Ann: Yeah. To process it. Matthew Brooks: How did you do that? Like, what wiz wizardry did you do? And it's like, no, there are boundaries and there is a power dynamic in controlling that. Because the thing is, that parent would have stood there for the next four hours having a free sessions, right? Ann: Hundred percent. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. So that's where it's like Building that confidence in yourself of being able to hand like control and handle, because there Ann: Nice. Matthew Brooks: were other times too that clinicians, the younger ones, are like, the parent wants a like lesson plan thing for every session, right? And they want to report Ann: Ha sorry. Matthew Brooks: for every session. And I was like, No, no. Are they gonna pay like best way to do it is like, are they gonna pay you for your time for doing that? Right? And they're like, Well, no. I was like, then why are you doing it? You already know what you're doing. You went to school for it. Yeah. I'm a parent as well. Ann: Parents are crazy. I I mean, me too. Hi. My daughter's going to kindergarten. I'm like, okay. Everybody, tell me what's Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: going on. so guilty. But you said something. so when you were talking about like you just say that in the waiting room and Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Ann: so many newer or maybe therapists in training, getting licensed whatever therapists are like How do we do that? How do do that? Well, Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: a huge part of that is like you the the first time that you do, or the first and second time that you do, you realize that the response you're going to get is not what's in your head, which is something we talk about with clients all the time, right? Like, just because you think it doesn't mean it's true. Everybody, including parents, now, maybe not all of them, but like clair clients, everyone knows that they're at therapy. Everyone knows that their session is forty five or sixty minutes. Or a hundred and twenty or whatever you're doing. Everybody knows that you're they're using their insurance or they have a copay or they that information is provided. So it actually should not be a shock when you say, hey Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Ann: We've gotta wrap this up because this is our time, somebody else's time. You you wouldn't question that in a doctor's office. And the clients and people or whatever that might have parents that might have issue, yes, they're struggling with something, so we can have empathy for that. But that's actually an outlier. Like the majority of I've I have rarely had an issue outside of like I said, there's like some initial times periods where we're establishing boundaries and relationship and whatever Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Ann: and then it's s established and there's not an issue. Rarely does it happen where I'm like, Hey, I actually gotta go if it's not a crisis and in private practice that's Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: not happening that everyone that somebody's like, No. In fact, I think Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: I've only had that happen one time. Matthew Brooks: I would say I I think I've only had that happen once as well. And even even when they do say no, then you just reiterate the boundaries and structure be like, actually yes. Ann: And it was and it was abs yeah. And it was absolutely a reflection on their like circumstances, not Matthew Brooks: yeah. Ann: anything and and then then they got angry and left and then they came back and they were like, D Are you do you have any openings? Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: Turns out All therapists don't like that. so so yeah, you have to remind yourself, like in your head it's gonna be such a difficult conversation 'cause you're shutting somebody off or you're t no, you're not. Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Ann: There the relationship and expectations have been established. Yes, we have empathy and like I said, I probably cross boundaries often as far as like support or phone calls or whatever. But I do that because there's an established relationship that we are not constantly doing that. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Which then it like c cross like quote unquote crossing the boundaries. It it's more of you're making the active choice of like, okay, I'm going to reach out this time. I know that's against the standard of ethics and boundaries and and everything, but like I know this client, I can explain why I did this and I can like there's a justification behind it. Ann: back to us trusting our instincts and trusting Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: and learning what our personal battery so much of being a in my opinion a good clinician Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Ann: is knowing what is knowing yourself, knowing your strengths, trusting your instincts, and Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Ann: reading your clients well. It it really I mean, don't everybody get mad about this, but really has a lot less to do with all of the that book learning. Then it does which is important information for us to Which Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yeah. It's it comes down to the instincts. Yeah. Ann: it is important information us for us to have to do what we do. Like once we gain those skills, we have to have that information. But the skills that really carry you to being a strong therapist are your personable are therapeutic relationship building, or knowing your boundaries, are knowing how Matthew Brooks: The humanization. Yeah. Ann: you're going to practice. And knowing what clients are going to work with that and what clients aren't. Because that's another like that's a thing. My personality matches with my clients and not with everybody that walks through the door. So you kind of have to then you have to be okay with that. but that's the biggest piece for me. Matthew Brooks: I think the other one too, you know, for the younger therapists, who are like, what happens if a client reach out reaches out over the weekend and they are actually in crisis? Like understanding the that worst case scenario of like they want to self-harm or anything. I also want you to understand, like, if you get that phone call, there's still nothing you can physic like you're not gonna drive to this person's house and wal like walk them through it. You do have to respond, but Ann: You do have to respond. Matthew Brooks: Basically that means hospitalization. Like it is not you being some like miracle worker of I'm going to save them. Like I've had parents who like in other practices who have reached out to me over the weekend and I'm like, they're actually in crisis? Take them to the hospital. It's not like I'm on my way. Ann: Or your or your superhero cape. Or Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: your calling crisis. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. You're either calling crisis, you're calling like the local authorities who do the wellness checks, if it's the police, if it's another service that's provided in your area. you know, the the crisis center is gonna have people who come out, or you have the a caregiver or another person taking them to have them admitted for evaluation and in in a safe controlled area, like an emergency room or whatever facility. But it's not Ann: Yeah. And w and that's it for Matthew Brooks: you. Like I wanna like Ann: And that's also Matthew Brooks: yeah, that's it's not going to be you running over and and doing that. Ann: And that's also information that you provide for them initial option. Like here's Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yeah. Ann: in our area, like resolve, like here's all of the crisis info. Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Ann: And but I do not other side of the coin, but like part of what you're saying too. Matthew Brooks: Mm. Ann: Like, yes, it isn't you going. And why I said, but you do have to call because I do sometimes with younger therapists sometimes it's like a struggle of that's a stressor or setting boundaries or you do have to r that is part of our job. If they are harm to sell for others and I don't care if Matthew Brooks: you have to respond. Yeah. Ann: it's a Sunday easy morning. Matthew Brooks: No. Nah. Ann: you might not see the call 'cause you're disconnected and that's totally fine. because they have the information you've given them already for these situations. Like you're covered. Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Ann: But if you see it you respond. You make sure that that is followed through and they're taken care of. So yeah, and it's part of our job like we were saying, like how do you shut it off? Like you Matthew Brooks: Yeah. And that's the that's the thing we were talking about, is like Yeah. Ann: really don't sometimes and that's happening no matter what's happening in your life. Matthew Brooks: You don't. Yeah. Yeah. So if you're Ann: Fun times. Matthew Brooks: if you're knocked out in the emergency room and someone's in crisis You know. Ann: You're like so sorry. Can't don't really know what year it is. but refer Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Come to where I am Ann: refer reference your initial contract. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yeah. Ann: Yeah. Yeah, it is a part of this. Matthew Brooks: Yeah, I mean th that's the other side of it too, where I have had that of like ha like younger clinicians asking, like, how do you know when to make that decision to call the authorities? 'Cause I I've been in sessions in the office, not this office but a prior one, where I've had to like call the authorities and have them come into the office to have a person admitted, right? Because it is like during the session they were having, you know, the suicidal thoughts and everything, but then they were talking about a plan and like hitting all the boxes where it was just like, Okay, like I'm gonna call and I told them that, like very plainly that but like this here's the next Ann: Yeah, alwa always. Matthew Brooks: steps, right? I'm going to call the authorities and you are going to be admitted. One, because you're I now like ethically and legally cannot let you just be like, Okay, go to the emergency room, buy you know. Like, no, that's not happening now. Like you've said and done specific things where I'm I'm going to say I'm I'm going to have a wellness check, you know, and have you take it. and it's not this big red button under the desk or emergency or screaming or anything. And I did have that client come back, like, once they were evaluated. They did The doctors and everybody said you're free to go home. They didn't have to get admitted into an acute stay or anything like that. But they came back and they're like, I'm really mad at you for doing that. I was like, That's fine. That's fine. Like you're safe. You're really safe. If it ruined Ann: Yeah. Okay. Okay. Matthew Brooks: our therapeutic relationship, I'm okay with that because you're safe. Right? Ann: Whoops. I did I did. Matthew Brooks: You spill your orange juice? There goes your orange juice. Yeah. Ann: Almost. I almost did. but I've never had to do that. I've I've had to I've been in those scenarios in previous actually one time at Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Ann: this space, but I've never had it permanently ruin a therapeutic relationship. Matthew Brooks: No. It's never permanently I've had people mad at me, but they understand. Ann: Yeah, I think that I think that people do. I think that that happens and that's not a sign of anybody as a clinician or how you practice or whatever. I just think it's Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: like luck of the draw situation, whatever. This is a really hard job we do, but I I've never had that happen and yes, people are angry or maybe they you know, whatever. But I've never Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Ann: had a it end poorly as far as a therapeutic relationship. because Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yeah. Ann: that's our job. It's very clear. Matthew Brooks: That's our job. And I and that that was my explanation to them of like I understand why you're mad at me and I'm okay with that because it's my job. It's my job. I'm gonna do my job and that's part of that like boundary expectation structure of like if you are going to say and do these things, like this this is the road we're gonna go down if we need to put like our big therapy boots on, right? And and really do the that sort of deeper, harder work where it is like you're I'm gonna say or do something now that you are not gonna agree with and you're you're gonna have to be taken by police or whomever and get admitted and you can be mad at me about that and I'm doing my job and that's okay. And I'm always gonna be okay with that. And like once I like ha once we had that conversation of like I'm mad at you and I'm like I'm okay I was doing my job like they're like I'm still mad at you but I'm okay with this. You know, and we continue therapy. Ann: I was just gonna make this is a therapist joke, maybe, but Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: it's also true. And they're like and in order to be discharged I have to continue care somewhere, so I guess I'm coming back. They won't let me leave unless I say that I'm gonna see you still. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Ann: Okay. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. I missed that in when we were in the acute inpatient setting where it's like, I have to come to these group sessions because I have to leave. Yeah. Ann: God, I loved those ones. I loved those patients. They told me I have to participate in more group settings. So they're like sitting in the back, angry. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yeah. Ann: I'm like just y Matthew Brooks: Do you want to participate? Ann: you are participating. I'll check you off even if you stared through the window. Just so you're Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: aware you're about to enter a different kind of group. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yep. The best was I Ann: my Matthew Brooks: think it was you. We were in it's probably the one of the harder floors where it was like schizophrenia or something and there was somebody Yeah, Ann: General doll, maybe. Matthew Brooks: or general and they're like, What do you Like they were sitting there and you're like, Hey, do you want to participate? And they're like, What do you want me to do? What what what will get me to check off the the box on your little paper there? And I was like, ugh and you're just like, Okay, well, hold this model magic. He's like, Okay And you know, he was just like s holding it. By the end of the session he like rolling it around but very much of like, What is it that I need to do to get out of here? Yeah. Ann: It was definitely me because every single time that question got asked all the time. And I was like, and Matthew Brooks: All the time. Daily. Ann: I was like, Do you want to just hold this model magic and sit here? Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yeah. Ann: Or I would I would say, Well, you just have to like make a one mark on this paper. And they would. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yeah. Ann: And sometimes I'd sit there the whole time. and I would play that I actually just started playing this game with my daughter. I just introduced it to her. No I maybe we haven't done it in a while. Anyways it's resurfaced 'cause I like, we've played that before. But now she's obsessed with it. The line like I draw a line or I draw a mark on the paper. She adds to it and we like trigger for it. I would do that. Matthew Brooks: yeah. Scri what is that? Scribble chase or whatever it is? Ann: I don't know, does it have a name? I don't know. I love when someone's like when I'm like, I'm doing this with a client and they're like, that's the da-da-da-da-da-da. And I was like, Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: my brain probably learned that and then I forgot that I learned it, and now I just think it's my idea. And so Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: I knew that one wasn't my idea, but like that happens often. We're like, I thought I came up with that. I didn't. I learned it in class. It's a study. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. I did that this weekend. I did that this weekend, because I d actually had a person who was asking about therapy and like wanting to go into the field of therapy 'cause it w we were at a wedding, so it's like that like one in every a hundred is like actually I Ann: And you said you're and you said you're a therapist? Matthew Brooks: didn't. The wifey said, actually you wanna talk to that guy over there So they came across the room Yeah Ann: You would never share. Matthew Brooks: and but I was talking to them and they're like, you opened your own practice, what's that like? And what's this like? And you have a podcast and like it just rolled and rolled and rolled. And they were like, Do you have a like a business card or anything to contact? And I was just like, I don't f like, I don't even have my wallet on me. We're at a hotel. Like, I'm not gonna have my wallet on me. so I was like, it'd be really cool to have like a virtual business card where it's like they like you have your phone on you and they have their phone so like if they scanned a QR code and did a virtual like digital business card, it's like that'd be a great idea. I wonder if I just came up with something and I looked at there's like ten thousand different apps. Yeah. All the time. Ann: There's like five th yeah. I do that all the time. All the time. I'm like, look how cool I am. Just kidding. My brain forgot I learned that. And now I think I'm coming up with an original thought. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All the time. Ann: Okay folks. That was a great talk today. We have to go 'cause we have sessions scheduled. Matthew Brooks: We have session schedules. one more thing before we go. Have you been doing any art or doing anything fun? Ann: Yeah, yeah. Matthew Brooks: Yeah? Ann: Add it to my murals at home. There's multiple. And I'm starting. I got see this giant canvas behind me. Matthew Brooks: Yes. Ann: I got another one. I have another one. Matthew Brooks: I nice. I'm excited to share this. Ann: That I've been waiting and then I I'm gonna start I started it, I'm gonna start more tonight. Matthew Brooks: I think starting a painting is the hardest part. Ann: Well yeah, but then I ha I I'm not gonna show everybody the surroundings of my office. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: Because there's a lot. I started Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Your brain's everywhere. Like you physically s you're Ann: I started Matthew Brooks: you're in your brain right now. Ann: They're not finished. Yeah, I'm in Matthew Brooks: Okay. Ann: my brain. This is I'm li I'm in it. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. I'm gonna show you these because it's adorable. So the the for my birthday the wifey said, What do want? And I was like, I wanna get like I try to get something I wouldn't buy myself. You know, they it's one of those like, that'd Ann: Yeah, yeah. Matthew Brooks: be really cool, but I'm not gonna buy it right now. So I got these like booknook dioramas. Do you ever see those? They're these little Yeah, I know, right? Ann: No. Also you have cross control? Okay. Matthew Brooks: It's years of practice. Yeah. Ann: Anyway. Anyway. Just gonna Matthew Brooks: so basically it's like like these little wooden puzzles that you build of little scenes and then you can put on your bookshelf in b in between like two different books and it looks like a little like diorama village alleyway, whatever it is. So I'm doing one and it's like a little library study thing, but I started making if you can see it they're like these little tiny Ann: my god. Matthew Brooks: tiny tiny little books and you have to put like the stickers on each one of them and like yeah I have like hundreds of them that I did and it was so yeah it was so meditative too like it's just me Ann: Matt, that is so clear, Alley. Yeah, yeah. Matthew Brooks: just like popping and I was so excited. It's good good times. So I wanted to share that before we left. Ann: Is exciting. Well, now you're gonna have to share where we get them. Okay. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Okay. Bye everybody. Ann: Don't make something. Matthew Brooks: Thank your therapist. Bye. Ann: Bye.