Ann Marie Hines: been on LinkedIn in a long time. Hi everybody! We're here and we are hanging out with our special guest today. We're really excited to have her on. Her name is Breanna Cox. She's in Kentucky and I'm going to pass it over to her. Hi! To introduce yourself further, tell us about where you're practicing, what's going on. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: ⁓ So hi everybody and ⁓ if you're listening or watching or whatever the case may be. ⁓ Gosh, so I came to art therapy. Actually, it's easier to kind of mention my first love. Don't tell my kid or my dog or my spouse. My first love is in photography and the essence of using that medium. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: in a very old fashion and having this tool in a very storytelling approach. And so my first love and my first career was in photojournalism. I'm going to age myself, but if anybody remembers the economy and the collapse of, lack thereof, back in 08 and 09, then I took a major detour in life. I always like to say I ⁓ I wanted to serve my country, of course, but then obviously I wanted to succeed in my career as a photojournalist. then, you know, ⁓ I also like to believe everything has a purpose. So then I served a little over five and a half years and got out on an injury. But ⁓ during that time I was in medical, so I was a med tech. But then on my way out, you know, so I was in the Air Force and I was stationed in New Mexico. And then Ann Marie Hines: you Matthew Brooks: Okay. Ann Marie Hines: Or in the Air Force, right? Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: I kind of include that if any grad school stuff ever comes up because I'm like, ⁓ yeah, my first grad school was residence only in New Mexico. And it's very woo woo. Very, very... They do market consciousness center based everything. Like it's begin and end with very interesting meditations. Yeah, that was like 2017. Matthew Brooks: Mmm. yes. Yeah. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: I Anyway, so yeah, got, I separate from the Air Force, honorable discharge, and thank you for anybody that served, if you, more than a week, and as long as you got honorable, then I'll say thank you for your service. If you have anything other than honorable, I'm gonna ask you what happened. Like, like it's, like it's hard to get other than honorable, like you kind of have to intentionally mess up. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Fair? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: But ⁓ on my way out of the Air Force, like you can look at my resume and be like, okay, so you have a bachelor's in arts. And then I also had a bachelor's in journalism because I'm one of those people that pursues everything. Like, no, it's because my first undergraduate college of Northern Kentucky University didn't have an actual, ⁓ it didn't have a specific program for the journalism, but nonetheless. Ann Marie Hines: Yes. Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: So I pursued art therapy more as like, wait, how do I combine these skills and these skills and my love of art and creativity, but also medical world. And I hadn't really crossed over to mental health yet, but I knew there was some kind of health when it came to, wait a minute, I had an art journal in some of- Ann Marie Hines: Bye. Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: the worst, most stressful and anxiety provoking times during active duty world. And it doesn't matter where you serve or what your rank is, or there's different people that say, oh wait, this person's a better veteran. I like none of that. Like art helps. You got a journal, you got to just like... find some kind of outlet that's going to help you along the way. And then even in my research, I used somewhat of similar methods. So when I got into art therapy and then was in grad school until 2022, there was a pandemic. And I moved a few times and there was, so to also answer where my practice is now, right? That was part of the question. So, Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: ⁓ because I finished at the end of 22 and then spent a couple of years in, ⁓ community mental health, ⁓ felt like I did some more service there. it's, it's like the years of grad school being an art therapy intern and working at peace hospital. That's a major regional psych hospital and working art therapy specific groups. And then. Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm Yeah, thank you for your service for that. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: being able to also do some other art therapy groups at Bridgehaven in Louisville. It's a major nonprofit that serves SMI clients. If I need anybody that doesn't know, like severe mental illness or so a lot of adults that struggle with ADLs or daily habits. And they had a really big art studio. And so I had a whole six months of that before I even crossed over to research in it. And then, ⁓ Ann Marie Hines: So. ⁓ Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: last six months of my grad school was like child and family west of seven counties. So in our greater Louisville region, seven counties is community mental health and ⁓ just intern there and then crossed over and came over to work full-time like post-grad, not post-grad academic, but post-grad. Like I had two years of like, wait a minute, I want to get to know the people that are rural and were mostly Medicaid. Ann Marie Hines: Thank Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: And because I was an associate license and then the people that really need services also might have court involvement or might have DCBS involvement or might just have other life transitions. you know, I think one of my favorite clients, obviously I don't want to share specifics of the particular client, but Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann Marie Hines: Okay. ⁓ Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: was with a particular family that really in this client that was she was 12 years old and loved coming in to do art but had a lot of stressful and crisis type things ongoing because of the moving dynamics of the family and coming in to make different box art therapy directives and getting those stressful things contained definitely helped. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: or just giving her crayons or pastels or anything to get some other aggressions out when she wanted to ⁓ self-harm and trying to come up with some other alternatives. ⁓ Since I left last spring, I was at another practice for like nine months, also Kentucky services, and I was the only art therapist of like 40 clinicians. Ann Marie Hines: That's it. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann Marie Hines: Thank Matthew Brooks: It's it's always that way Ann Marie Hines: It's like a... listening I'm like okay you have you ended up in art therapy in a very creative way which I think that we all have those stories and Matt and I can share ours today too but it's like ⁓ I was in this setting and this heading in this setting and it's like and I was the only art therapist or I wasn't even an art therapist or I was trying to figure out what the hell I Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann Marie Hines: was going to get into post-graduation and so now I'm gonna dip my toe in this and it's always navigating that. ⁓ But it sounds like you were building in programs in the creative process in a lot of different settings. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: Yeah, and I think just in the last few months and four or five months maybe at most that I've exploring how can we use art in non-traditional settings that not just clinical, which doesn't mean I'm giving up the field of art therapy. It's more like to address like the many different ways that people come into finding therapeutic art and art therapy. And I was just looking at the post, you know. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann Marie Hines: I think I saw it because you do you you are starting or you did just start your own practice, correct? Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: Yeah. So I can't say I'm independently practicing as a therapist until I'm independently licensed in case my licensing board sees this. I am an associate licensed, but I am running my practice kind of more so reaching people to do community workshops. And what that means is like what businesses or organizations might need a different way of building resilience, building stress management, building Ann Marie Hines: Yeah. I'm Okay. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann Marie Hines: Cause I saw a couple things on your social media and I think something that you and I have in common is community event stuff. And I've always been kind of talking about, or it's one of my things that I talk about, it's like outside of clinical practice, it's still so important to be engaging the community that you're in with therapeutic art, art as therapy techniques. for multiple reasons, because it's beneficial period, like in general, but it also can bring people more knowledge about art therapy, which when you are clinically practicing, and for those of us that are clinically practicing, it brings people through the door for individual therapy as well, because they have a little bit more knowledge about it and they should get that knowledge from art therapists. ⁓ Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: Right, right, right. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann Marie Hines: So saw that you were building a lot of those and I don't, am I remembering this correctly? Was your thesis about, or maybe I made this up in my head, which is totally possible, but was your thesis about the work, about your time when you were serving in the Air Force and you did the boots and stuff, or was that something different? Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: ⁓ So you might have seen a picture I posted of a particular art ⁓ response I did. So the boots with a bird I made. Obviously I didn't use a real bird. That wasn't related to my thesis. ⁓ Ann Marie Hines: Thanks. It's ruined. Okay, I I think you said these earlier and I just linked those two things together. So that was just me Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: ⁓ I didn't ever take any kind of 3D or sculpture class in undergrad, so I had to take it in grad school to meet media requirements. But I think I shared that probably closer to Veterans Day, but it's also probably... I might have shared it closer to another Veterans Day similar. I think that particular art piece was more about... Matthew Brooks: You Mmm. Ann Marie Hines: Yep, yep. Thank you. Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: the metaphor of how heavy the boots are, which is not a metaphor actually, they do weigh up to 10 pounds. ⁓ But it's more about how much they weigh on us. And then over the years, what can you do to funnel and externalize and put your emotional weight and physical weight or whatever the weight is, the stress of having to feel that pressure all those years. Ann Marie Hines: you Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: And I've been out 10 years now, but it's like, I still feel like I want to serve my community and I feel like I want to get out and do more. And I wonder if there's ever some art therapists that feel like we should give our skills. And that does cross, it does cross sometimes boundaries wise. Like I do have to Ann Marie Hines: Yeah. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann Marie Hines: Well, I actually think... Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: I don't hold myself back from over helping in some situations. Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Ann Marie Hines: ⁓ yeah, same. I think I have the same pain, but you just brought up a really good point that I want to touch on, because you have served in the Air Force and then you ⁓ kind of, you know, throughout your journey, it sounds like you ended up in creative arts. And I think that it's really interesting that that's your history, but a thing that is a common ground for most therapists is I do feel the need Like when you said to serve, know you were relating that to Air Force military stuff, but I feel like it's similar. It's a similar. It may be a similar feeling that I have is when I am seeing clients in practice or when I've worked in these community settings or I do still feel the need to be a part of my community and offer the support and help because it is a weight that we carry. Like when you were talking about the weight of the boots, it's a weight that I carry on a day to day basis of ⁓ my gosh, and I do have to find a balance with it is like, I feel like I could be doing more. I feel helpless in some situations with clients because I only see them for an hour a week in my office and they're out here in these like programs or community or, know, how can I help the larger picture or how can I help the larger, you know, structure or community? And that is part of the reason why I do love the community events because it does feel like outreach. does feel like let me offer my skills in another way. But it is a difficult balance so you can easily get caught up in doing too many things because we're helpers. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: Yeah, yeah. Right, and then so I have been cautious about not wanting to necessarily make sure how do I frame this so it's not clinical, but then I want to offer a workshop. So like in this county, I'm in the Shelby Arts Council and that's primarily an art group, but we have anybody can come join an art workshop, but because I'm ⁓ with it being spring, I designed ⁓ one on gardening. But it was more on like, let's make a collage on what are you planting right now in your life. And then what is coming, what do you see in your page? I'm used to saying, what do you, ⁓ what do you see and like what else is coming through for you? Kind of, not necessarily semantically, but in a way. Ann Marie Hines: Yeah. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: And so like when you talk about community events, like for people that might not necessarily want to start a therapeutic relationship, you know, and involve, involve. Ann Marie Hines: intimidated by therapy or intimidated by seeking out help, mental health, those groups offer that. did a similar, because when you said, I think I saw that too, like you're planting seeds group and you're giving the prompt of like, what are you growing? Where are your intentions? Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: yeah, yeah Right. And I had a similar one. Yes. So the Nook Collective was another group that was totally casual meeting in the back of a coffee shop in Lexington. And I'm like, ⁓ cool. How about like we have actual mini pods. So I feel like you're referencing that picture about like, yeah. So I had them paint it first about, I read like a two minute mindfulness on Ann Marie Hines: Thank Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: specifically there on what might you be planting in your life. So that was a two-parter on like, this is a pot you're taking your painting and taking home. But then I want us to plant together as a collective. And I don't know if a lot of communities are doing that. I feel like even since the pandemic, I feel like we're still very disconnected. And we have so much social media. Ann Marie Hines: Yeah. Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Ann Marie Hines: So there. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: ⁓ Mac's waving his hand. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yes. No, I like you hit on something and then it was was brewing and you were getting to some of it and I was like, oh, OK, I need to it's with that connection and these community events. You mentioned something earlier with like Arizona and being out there and it was a little bit more woo woo. Right. What is it with? Like, since you are in Kentucky, when we do the community events, is there any sort of editing or catering to that? Like, you're more rural, and like, I'm more East Coast location-wise. So like, when we talk about therapy, like West Coast and Arizona and that might be a little bit more woo-woo, and East Coast might be a little bit more clinical or something. Like, is there a generalization? ⁓ in the area that you are that reaches people out in the community, like in the rural community? Do they want more community events that are active, engaging, gardening, working with your hands versus let's sit and have coffee and intellectualize? Yeah. Yeah. Sound bath. Yeah. Like those types of things. Is there just because of your location and what the community needs? Is there a difference? Yeah. Ann Marie Hines: like a sound map. Yeah. differences. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: Right? I think and I don't want to assume based on where someone is and I don't ever want to say anything that might be biased even though I think we all have a bias, you know. I lived in New Mexico for six and a half years. It's one of the most diverse places that I've ever seen. And even rural parts of New Mexico, I kind of wonder if they're not getting Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: access to folks like us that have a different kind of professionalism or a different kind of service. ⁓ Matthew Brooks: Yes. Ann Marie Hines: ⁓ Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann Marie Hines: arts in general and then you take it a step further in art therapy. Matthew Brooks: Yeah, yeah and in those rural areas and like you were saying with the people who are on Medicaid people who like that outreach is I mean if we think about the Midwest even it's like very far away in New Mexico, Arizona like How do we reach out to people who may not have access to all of this or may not be in a city region? You know different different things like that Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: Yeah. yeah Ann Marie Hines: This happened to me this is really funny. I have a funny story that fits here. This happened to me this week. 30 minute difference from where I live to where I was. 30 minutes. I was closer to Pittsburgh, like my practice, my winter is closer to Pittsburgh. And well, actually it's more like 45 minutes. And where I went to high school is about 45 minutes away from where my practice is, whatever. And it's in a more rural area. And I was invited to do a career day at the middle school. And which is very cool. I got to Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: ⁓ Okay. Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: ⁓ nice. Yeah. Ann Marie Hines: All of the student, I mean middle schoolers, my gosh. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: What is that like to even describe middle-hill? Ann Marie Hines: Well, was just laughing right there. Some of them were like really cool. did a I did a meditative drawing with them to take up time and like had hands on stuff. And some of them are really into it. And some of them like were losing their minds, you know, whatever. And some of them like I had one penis drawn, which I think is actually a win for a whole day of middle school. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: Yeah. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: Is that gonna be edited out? I'm just kidding. Like, we would expect that actually for the age range. ⁓ Ann Marie Hines: way more yeah a bunch of middle school things I was like well we're gonna have at least one but anyways I um at the end and everybody's like what's our therapist or how much do you make what are you do you know the crazy middle school questions at the end of the day two people were in the room the teacher asked me this question and then the principal later asked me and they're like we don't have Matthew Brooks: Yeah, yeah. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: Thank Ann Marie Hines: Anything like that around here. Would you ever open up a location like around here? Like I was so far away and I'm like Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: You're like, I do work around here. Ann Marie Hines: like, well, it's only 45 minutes away. But do you know what? That would immediately pop into my head. was like, I don't know if it would be as successful. Like, I think that people with small children would reach out because they would associate with art therapy. And maybe I'm wrong. I hope that I'm proved wrong. But the pocket and population from where I'm from Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: Yeah. Ann Marie Hines: adults, etc. might not be as into art therapy or maybe even therapy in general as I would near a larger city. And so it's it is interesting because I was kind of doing a community event but that community event was accepted because it was like we're doing this career thing or like what you're saying it's easier for people to come in and wrap their head around gardening and like I could plant a seed and I have something to take home and it's like an activity that they're used to doing at school and stuff but if I was Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann Marie Hines: offering a sound bath, you kind of have to be in a different head space to walk into that door. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: Right, right. ⁓ Some of those I've seen at Metro Louisville or Metro Lexington, and even I crossed four counties to get to Lexington, I think. So, you know, I think there's still maybe some more needs assessments and research to be done from various, I know I'm still looking to answer your question here in Kentucky and I don't know of their states. I would love to see how do other towns and communities get access or get the thing that's not just medical care or groceries. I love working with more of, I always call it SAMHSA's eight pillars of wholeness, but it doesn't matter if you have a co-occurring or not. Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: What other pieces of you need to be fed? And I am following a lot of research now, like a lot of art and creativity should now be considered like your besides exercise and food and roof over your head. What about the other piece of you that helps you feel like you have a sense of being and we're not robots? Matthew Brooks: Yes. Yes. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: Because our bodies are machines and we operate on water and metabolism, but that it's like in the last few months, there's been a ton of research in the last two to three months on how the arts and creativity are like the fifth pillar of health. Ann Marie Hines: you I can get behind that. think Matt and I, and even with some previous guests, we have talked about the ADHD therapists that we are. ⁓ But I work with a lot of neurodivergent clients. I definitely have my own struggles. ⁓ Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: So. Bye. Ann Marie Hines: Creativity, think, is necessary in order for me to balance and function. I know with my stuff, with my attention to task stuff, but I find that it is a universal way that people connect, calm, ⁓ even recalibrate. It's a grounding practice, and so I can absolutely get behind that. And that goes for, there hasn't been a population, I've worked with several populations, There hasn't been a population that I have worked with that I've been like, ⁓ this really doesn't fit. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: You know, right? There's always a book written by somebody that helps with older adults, with teens, like somebody in art therapy world is getting there on helping the rest of us make sure we have the tools or resources or we know how to adapt. then if it's not something in my wee house, then obviously I got to refer out ⁓ to a different art therapist. But ⁓ sometimes I wonder for you all, Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann Marie Hines: You can. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: when you are trying to help people understand the validity or like why it's so important to have some kind of creative health, hence why I named my business Creative Health Kentucky. And you know, but it's like outside of me and outside, you know, just in general, like how do you try to talk to people on finding what is helpful for them? Like what is an interest? Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Ann Marie Hines: Next slide. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: or what is something you do that's helpful, not just you, but just when you're talking to people. I do a lot of strength-based, so I started to do that. Like, well, certainly there's something you're good at or you like, or I don't know, we can go get a bouncy ball from Walmart for $5. You know, or Target has them for $6, $7, like. Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Ann Marie Hines: Yeah. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann Marie Hines: So this is both, I'm gonna, I think that this is an important question because I think that a lot of therapists starting their practice or starting into art therapy kind of come across this and I've navigated it so many different ways but having had that conversation a million times now, I feel like I'm gonna say what I say to clients walking through the door and then in the community. And for clients walking through the door that have already accepted, like have already willingly being come to art therapy, I'm like, hey, this is the art space. This is the space where we can just talk and hang. You are guiding how this works for you. I'm going to show you some tools. I'm going to show you what a starting point, maybe what works for others. But really, if you just even want to sit here and doodle while we talk. And then because I'm working in a video lives, we can kind of guide to a place where it's like, do you feel that? Like, isn't this helpful? ⁓ And in the community, it's way more, or the community or education, it's way more education. It's like, even for this career day that I did, I of course had a handout and I was like, this is what art therapy is on the American Art Therapy website. I just made a post yesterday that I was like, this is what art therapy is per the definition of the American Art Therapy website. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: Mm-hmm. Ann Marie Hines: This is how I practice. And then I always ask the question, no matter what group I'm doing, even if it is a sound bath, I'm like, do you guys, because I'm usually doing art along with it, like, do you guys ever find yourself doodling at work or at school or in trainings? And the answer's always like, yeah, probably. Or do you ever find yourself, you know, what is something that you do creative? Well, I'm not really creative. Well, do you do? Yard work. Do you do gardening? Do you do, you know house projects? Do you like to cook? Yeah, and Yeah Yeah, and then after I'm giving the education of what like art therapy is per the American Art Therapy Association then I'm saying I'm teaching like hey You actually are creative in your everyday life and that is something that helps with grounding that is something that helps with emotional regulation when you get into the group Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: Do you like to cook? there, you know, is there something that you like to eat that's maybe not too complicated, you know? Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yeah. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: Problem-solving skills. Yes. Ann Marie Hines: problem-solving. you switch to the group of cooking in your kitchen, you are getting into a creative space. so let me teach you how to use that and let me show you that that is a way that we can work through your mental health, emotional, social goals if you're coming to therapy. But as far as this group goes, we're just going to hang out for a little bit and tap into it purposefully. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: Right? Self-Efficacy, yes. Right. Ann Marie Hines: I think that there's always opportunity no matter what setting to first educate and then you relate it to what they're doing because what I know what I find relaxing is different than others but really when it boils down to it we're all doing creative acts every day. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yeah, that's that's tend to where where I go to because just being in the the DC region, there is military government officials. So they're they're very Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: Yes. Matthew Brooks: Some of them not to generalize, but they're very straightforward of like, am not creative. was like, I'm going to argue that that you are. It's just, it doesn't look like painting. ⁓ If you're working on a car, if you are gardening and you're thinking about spatial awareness and landscapes, if you like to decorate your home or ⁓ woodwork or whatever it is, right? That is something that is expressive. And even going back to what you were saying earlier of, you know, art and, Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: Yes. Yes. Mm-hmm. Right. Matthew Brooks: I always say like, civilization, like the way you know that there was a civilization is through the art. Like if we look back, there was the cave paintings, there even a military like World War II, there were missions to save the art pieces that they went out and did. Like every civilization has some... Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mmm. Matthew Brooks: monument or painting or something that shows that they were there at that time. So in our lizard brains, humans want to leave something to create something. So it could be the Great Wall of China or the Eiffel Tower or the Mona Lisa, you know, so it is something down to Ford making the cars, you know, and whatever it is. Yeah, Toyota, like any. Ann Marie Hines: Thank you. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: Mmm. Right. Or Toyota. We have to. Yeah, we have a big Toyota plant in Georgetown, Kentucky. And so, you know, I was listening to this presentation. I was at this big lunch on around all these business people yesterday. And here I am trying to find like health care and arts. And it's like, how do we find the people that want to get in both? Like, well, are you sure you don't want to work at the school? You know, and I'm like, Ann Marie Hines: Perfect. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann Marie Hines: Thank ⁓ Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: I, it's a possibility. I might, I tend to do ages 10 and up right now. Kind of helps me avoid counter transference cause I got a kindergartner at home. You know, so then it's like, um, but when we're around other business people are just, I think when you mentioned being around folks of trades people for sure. And, uh, folks who might have Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann Marie Hines: Thank you. Matthew Brooks: ⁓ yeah. Mm-hmm. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: history of mechanics or ⁓ and gosh both my mom and dad are this is gonna humble me you can edit this part out I come from a really ⁓ humble upbringing and I'm just saying that but I I am only the first person in my family to get a master's degree and second if you count ⁓ Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Me too. Me too, yes. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: just an aunt, I don't know. You know, right? But it's like, I don't know how many, I've lost how many times they've said, what do you do? You know, and my dad is like, I often say this, even in his early seventies, like he's an old school carpenter, like he specializes on trim. Ann Marie Hines: Yeah. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yeah. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: This was already here when we moved in. But he can do the trim above doors and whatever that's, you know? when you try to talk to people about certain ways that they know and then they get so stuck in like fixed thoughts and then it's like maybe we need to work on some abstract thoughts. But like that is an art too. Matthew Brooks: You Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Ann Marie Hines: Yeah. ⁓ Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: You have to be able to do some adapting and that is also creativity to be able to adapt. Matthew Brooks: Yeah, yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Ann Marie Hines: and you're working on your hands. And I think that it's such a window, like what you just described, you know, your dad being an old school carpenter. And I obviously don't know your dad, but so now I'm stereotyping, but they have this number, like, ⁓ you know, I do this work and I'm with woodworking and whatever. But I'm not really great at art. I just do, I'm like, well, you're making things all day. You are creating things all day. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: Yeah. Yeah. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann Marie Hines: to have the kind of brain that can view a room and kind of visually picture what it looks like. And isn't that such a great gap, because I've had this happen in sessions before, isn't it such a great gap to be like, yeah, but you do. And maybe you need to think outside of the box a little bit to understand how your brain works. You might be thinking that you're just this black and white person that puts up trim all day, but there's a little bit more going on in there. And let me invite you. Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Ann Marie Hines: to kind of learn about that, to kind of learn about value tick. And I think that that's so cool. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: Yeah. Right. And my mom will hate me if I don't mention her, you know, and spent 30 years as a medical secretary. Like I spent 30, you know, and then it's like, there are certain skills that you have to learn even in a caring environment. But then it's like, when you talk to certain people of certain fields and trying to help them realize that there are certain creative processes that you still, that you are doing and probably don't realize it. Matthew Brooks: Hahaha Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: until we see it or hear it but we have a lot of formal art training as well. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann Marie Hines: and people. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann Marie Hines: Yeah, yeah, it's so interesting how that happens. And even in the so you said she was a ⁓ secretary of medical secretary. Yeah. Right. And I'm going to. ⁓ Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: ⁓ A variety of places, yes. Like in the hospital, like ICU and ER and sometimes after a while they just, hey, did you get that person or, know, does that person have a telemonitor? You know, and it's like, is that what you're supposed to be doing? Maybe should get that nurse for that. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann Marie Hines: ⁓ my God. ⁓ Matthew Brooks: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ann Marie Hines: Well, what's so funny about that is whenever family members that have a work history like that are like, what is it you do again? And I'm like, well, remember when you were doing crisis management? I never did crisis management. Yeah, you did. You definitely did if you were. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: Right. WHAAAAT? Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yeah. Ann Marie Hines: If you were doing, you know, answering calls or managing in any medical setting, you probably also worked through a couple of crisis and you probably got a little bit comfortable with it. And so like that's part of my job. Like that's part of there's similarities across the board and you just have to find out in these community settings, in your clinical settings, you have to find out the connection that clicks. And that's what us therapists are going to do. You know, through our experience of training, we are good at finding kind of those Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Ann Marie Hines: that, for lack of better words, common ground to join and then help them explore their own stuff. And so it sounds like from your parents, you probably gained a lot of skills to end up where you are in the world. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: Mmm. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: Yeah, a lot of lot of grit and grace ⁓ and grit and grit and yes, yes Matthew Brooks: Yes. Ann Marie Hines: Because people, mean, like I said, at this career day, often, or kids were asking me, but in a lot of these settings, people ask me, like, well, how did you become an art therapist? Like, what got you into that? And I tell this shortened version, which is, ⁓ had a neighbor who was an artist growing up. There was a huge influence on me and I loved the arts. And my mother will stand there and tell you, she's like, I'm not artistic at all. I'm not. You know, and she was a teacher for like 37 years. Yes, she's creative. So anyways, and my dad will say, I don't know where she got it from. I'm not artistic at all. And he worked for fish hatcheries his whole life. But if you sit down and draw with him, he's actually pretty talented. He just is like, I'm not good at it. But anyways, the shortened version that I tell them is that I had an artist. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: Wow. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yeah. Ann Marie Hines: neighbor who was very influential. went to grad school for art, changed to psych, and I had a professor that said, did you know art therapy existed? And I was like, nope. And I applied and here I am. But really, the longer story is art and creativity has played such a meaningful part in my life from when I was little, whether the people knew they were planting that seed or not. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: Rrrrr Right. Right. Ann Marie Hines: It was a way I was taught how to communicate. was a way that I escaped. It was a way that, you know, brought me to where I'm at. And if we all look at our histories, that's how we ended up here. And I think that it's so cool that this art therapist tapped into that in a way that we were like, no, the artwork is so purposeful. It is that fifth pillar or whatever. Yeah. And I know, Matt, you and I have talked about this before. We had similar. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: Yeah. Yeah. Matthew Brooks: Yeah, it really is. Yeah. Ann Marie Hines: A similar-ish history of ending up. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yeah. I would say if you ask like any art therapist, there probably is a colorful journey of how they became an art therapist because I don't, I don't think unless they knew of it as a kid or something and they're like, I want to grow up to be an art therapist. Everybody discovers it more often than like pursues it. Yeah. Yes. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: Yeah. Ann Marie Hines: They are decoration. Like, ⁓ that's a thing. I do think that people know about it more now because social media and all that stuff, but. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: Yes, yes. Yeah. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: Right. And we're advocating more and we're, we're trying to do a lot more, not just social media, but I mean, I hope that there's a lot of other ways that we can get the word out. But then even from the business side, like, how do I help people know who I am and what do I do? Like, okay, I can't go into a factory and do art therapy, but maybe I can help them do something else to, to be more productive. And like, Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Ann Marie Hines: And it sounds like we're in touch with the community event staff. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: Yeah, yeah. ⁓ I just lost trade of thoughts. Ann Marie Hines: ⁓ It sounds like you're doing that with the community event stuff and some of the things that you've talked about. You're like, OK, and in this setting I can engage this way or probably with your photography history as well. ⁓ Something that I know that we're this is what always happens. We get a guest and then the time just disappears, but. We get it. Matthew Brooks: Hahaha! Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: We could have extra time. We can go get more water or coffee. fine. Matthew Brooks: Yeah Ann Marie Hines: Right. I'm going to pivot here a little bit. It's kind of related, kind of not. But you mentioned something way earlier in this session about art journaling or art journals. And I know that part of my journey to becoming an art therapist was my connection to how I use creativity to process through a lot of my stuff that I was going through and still do. Were you art journaling? While you were in active duty, was that kind of a thing you discovered post or maybe you always had? Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: I remember one of my first art journaling actually late 90s early 2000s ⁓ The old-school What were they called? ⁓ Smash books does anybody remember that and and then if I if I didn't have that Then I would just take gosh and we Matthew Brooks: Okay. Mmm. Yes. Yep. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: buy them now at Walmart or Target or Staples has composition books. But they're not going to hold as much. The paper isn't as thick. so if I end up with one of those starting with an art journal, then I do try to glue the sheets together so that they're sturdier and have more structure. Yeah, in my... Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Ann Marie Hines: Yeah Pardon. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: Active duty years, I, you know, I think some of the stress, I would kind of carry some tension depending on where I was working because you kind of get trained in a job and then you'd kind of just have to know the job and work in a different department. So even though I was at family health clinic for so long and then I would go to a different clinic and a different clinic and then I'm like, this is my head is killing me. But I can't let it take over my mind and heart. I need it to be out in a journal. And I still remember finding a picture of a train and feeling like, I'm going to let this train that's in me, let it live in the journal. And I hope people realize that that's why we offer containers. ⁓ I have a program I wanted to design. Matthew Brooks: Mm. Yeah. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: so to speak, shouldn't call it program per se, but it's more like a me box or I've used it as like a self care box or I've used it as like ⁓ a safety box even if you want to help certain people have positive behaviors or have positive coping skills or whatever you want to call it. And you know, you can do that in a journal for sure. ⁓ Some people might not want to be restricted to to just a journal or book, but I feel like I'm always collecting things. Like I probably, I can't show you the front of this, but I always have ⁓ like little cards and I always have like ⁓ different sheets that I might cut from a magazine. So this one says, this one says caregiver, you know, I'm looking at seeing what else I've cut lately, building good moments. Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. you Yeah. Mm, yeah. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: ⁓ I think there is a thing you might- where we want your subconscious to believe it though so I kind of wonder what process you've done to help yourself so that you're not just sticking things on the page and I don't want to be a critic of that that process but Ann Marie Hines: And it sounds... Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann Marie Hines: Yeah, it sounds like you benefited from art journaling in several areas of your life up until now, and then you're using that to help others also understand that it's a great place, container, space to put stuff that you're holding. I have done altered books before. I have not done a ton of art journaling. Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Ann Marie Hines: But I actually, which is funny because I actually have a stack of journals in my office that I give to clients to use. I, yeah, yeah. I haven't done as much art journaling, but I have done altered books, ⁓ like writing journaling ⁓ personally. But I, that's why I was kind of wondering like, is that is something that helped you throughout your journey of becoming an art therapist and. Matthew Brooks: Yeah, do as I say, not as I do, right? Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: Okay. Yeah, definitely. Ann Marie Hines: Because I have a stack that I give out to people and I just tell them like whatever you need this for, you can write in it, draw on it, collage in it. And I don't give as much directive when it's their personal stuff. ⁓ But I do think I love what you said because, and I love container. you were like, I hope people understand when we give them containers. And I never thought of a journal as that, but it really is because it's like here, you have a space to put this. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: Right, right, right. Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Ann Marie Hines: The creative space is a space to put the stuff that you're carrying. The creative space is a space to explore the stuff that you're carrying. And then bring it to us. Like bring it back if you want to process the session. But if not, you still have a place to put it. You still have control over all of that stuff that's going on in your brain, in your body. And isn't this such a great outlet for it? So I love the idea. I'm actually gonna use that of like, this is still a container. The journaling. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: Mm-hmm. Right. Right. No, Yeah, yeah, and I think for most anybody, no matter your age, ⁓ probably like 10 or 12 up. ⁓ Maybe not little, little kids, but little kids can still do a version that might be like what they do for cut and paste to learn, find motor skills and help them write. And it's not the same as what we know, but ⁓ teens and adults and even ⁓ Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: our aging population can also benefit from it for a variety of ways, you know, when they feel like, you know, ⁓ obviously Erickson's stages and the different, the different growth and morality stages of development when folks get older and then they start questioning what that life has been like. But I think it's a different version of an art journal. And then I wonder if it might become more like memory book or scrapbook or something that you can offer yourself, but leave them a legacy like ⁓ Certainly my mom and dad aren't dying but like I hope anybody who has aging parents in their 70s like can see that and can look for ways to like kind of hold space for what is Going on in their life because I don't know about you all it's like this is my third career, but I have a weird Ann Marie Hines: Thank you. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: way of like, I also have a small child and aging parents and a partridge to parotry. Ann Marie Hines: You mentioned earlier, having a kindergartner and I have little, we both have little kiddos too. And I hear you, the artwork is so purposeful to show them at that age. It's how to use it. It looks a little bit different, but it absolutely applies across generations. And what I love, what kind of popped into my brain as you were talking is they bring their little artwork home from school, right? Or they bring, and you're like, ⁓ my God, I need to keep everything. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann Marie Hines: I don't. ⁓ throw a lot away. ⁓ But the thing is, yeah, what is that? It's like handprints, yes. Other stuff, whatever. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: I keep all the handprints. The handprint. Yes. They are creative. The teachers are turning it into turkeys and turtles and everything. I'm like, what is next? Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann Marie Hines: Yeah, we're doing a great job. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann Marie Hines: It is that stuff that we keep that does really tell a story that my and I'll kind of wrap up on this because I know that Matt and I have stuff after. ⁓ But I do, I love what you said because I do think that across generations when we're practicing the art, means different things to us across different ages. Like when kids are doing it means something different. When teens are doing it we're doing it purposely in an art therapy session, it means something different. But we always have it to look back to remember and with the even with the aging population, sometimes showing their artwork or if they were an artist and bringing it back, that is such a meaningful memory or that kind of starts their storytelling. And it really does show us who everybody was throughout. time and I think that that's very cool and it's the reason why we should keep creating even the silly stuff with our kids because we get to show it to them. ⁓ It does tell a story. Matthew Brooks: Yes. Thank you. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: Yes, yes. I feel like that's the full circle. Like, like my... ⁓ no! My first career in journalism and wanting to be a storyteller for other people and having my byline and I'm like, no, I want other people to feel like they have authenticity for their story. Matthew Brooks: Yes, I feel like that's the perfect bow. Yeah ⁓ yeah Ann Marie Hines: Bye-bye. Yes! ⁓ Yeah, and the creative space can offer that and I love that at any age and I like we were talking about journaling or containers and those are all things that we can keep and look back on that are helpful for our process, whether we're in therapy or just for us, our own personal process and creativity offers such a great space for that. Yeah, I think it's great like we covered so many things today and ⁓ the time always flies, but I'm. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: Yeah. Art is good for your health. Yes. For your health, yes. Ann Marie Hines: I'm, it is, yeah, more of a starter is like, art is good for you, keep doing it, do the art. I, I thank you, I thank you so much for being on today and I'm going to post and include your practice info and Instagram and all that stuff again. Um, so people can reach out if they have any questions or anything, but I'm just, yeah, I'm just so, I'm happy that we got to spend this time together. And yeah, the moral of today is art is good for your health. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: You Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: Thank you. Yes. Y'all keep doing great work you all and appreciate it. Matthew Brooks: Awesome. Ann Marie Hines: Thanks. Matthew Brooks: Wow, thank you. Yeah, and you too, and thank you for your service, both in the community and military. ⁓ all right, everybody, that's it for today. Bye. Breanna Cox, MA, ATR: Yes, thank you. Yes, you're welcome. Thank you. Ann Marie Hines: Bye-bye.