Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: Every time he just hits the button, but hi everybody! We are back from conference and we're all, I think, just getting back to norm. I know that my brain is still mush. so but we are so excited, and Stefan and I got to touch a little base, a little bit of a conference. I got to see a short part of your presentation. Matt and I were like running around. but Stefan Oliva (he/him): Okay. Well thank you. Ann: Yeah, we made it for for a little bit of time and he's here to talk today about frame share. Which a lot of our listeners are art therapists, but some of them are not. So I'm gonna so some people might be familiar, some not, but we're just so excited to talk more about it. So I'm gonna hand it over to you to introduce yourself and talk a little bit about what Frameshare is and we'll go from there. Stefan Oliva (he/him): Absolutely. and again, thanks for catching even any of the presentation. I was really trying to just like fixate on like the clock and not look at anyone Ann: Yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): because that would have been way too much pressure and definitely not the public speaker. Matthew Brooks: That's fair. Stefan Oliva (he/him): but it was great. At a conferences, this was my second. or just there's so much emotion and so much going on and a very beautiful chaos. So yeah. Decompressing this week. I was telling Matt it's been pretty busy. But anyway, my name's Stefan, as you mentioned. I'm actually here in New York where I was born and raised. I kinda give a little bit of background on Frameshare to every user who signs up, I reach out to just to say hi, kind of explain what our motivations are, like where this even came from and how we would love for them to be a part of building something that allows art therapy to grow, at least digitally. Never getting into the intervention space. I'm not an art therapist. It's very Important to say up front. I did take a continuing education course and I would love to have counted my CEs from the start because Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): I'm sure I'm in the hundreds at some point and Ann: Yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): definitely love learning through osmosis and drinking from the water hose. But non-art therapist, I actually started my career in climate and agriculture. So have always been interested in mission-driven tech startups. That was born out of the first time I was even able to travel abroad. was in high school through a program. I got into a private school here in New York. And we got a relationship with an all boys school out there, actually alma mater to the most Olympians of any high school in the world. all runners. It's called St. Patrick's High School for Boys. and I guess I went there to learn about running. really all you need to know about running is the more you run, typically, the better you get. So Ann: Yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): really what I came away with was just a love for international relations, global affairs, went back, took a gap year not through program, just kind of was a substitute teacher there, lived in Kenya for a year, and then went to Colgate University where I technically double majored in international relations and African studies. It was mostly African history classes. I was fascinated with when I was in Kenya, why getting a haircut, like a buzz cut. would cost me exactly one dollar. This was, in twenty fourteen or something. well, no, the first time I went was two thousand seven. And then coming back to New York, a buzz cut at that point was like, you know, ten, fifteen dollars. But it's the exact same service. It's the exact same thing that happened to my Ann: Yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): head. and for a sixteen year old at the time, that's, you know, it was a very fascinating thing for me. Still is in a lot of capacities. but it just got me thinking about well, why does it mean why does it turn out that way? Why is the world the way it is? is there a way to make that more equitable? To make the prices the same? maybe these guys should be making ten bucks or I don't know, get Ann: Okay. Stefan Oliva (he/him): some of them to New York, whatever it was. and kind Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): of studied developmental economics, was very interested in international trade, and I'm sure a lot of people are wondering how this relates to art therapy. but Ann: Ha ha Stefan Oliva (he/him): the main theme is that it's just a life that I've been trying to live aligned with moral values, something to engender some sort of structural good, Matthew Brooks: Thank you. Stefan Oliva (he/him): and always just being very curious, which is a huge, huge part of this. so I went to Colgate, graduated, actually flew right back to Kenya, this time to Nairobi, very, very different part of the country. Nairobi, for those who haven't been, is a massive, massive international city. The UN's, you know, headquarters in Sub-Saharan Africa are there. There's PWC skyscrapers and every consulting and banking firm you can imagine has has a presence there and it's just so cosmopolitan. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): People from all over the world and all over the region congregate there. Really, really beautiful place. And now basically my second home with all the friends that I still talk to who are out there. started a company called Grow Intelligence, which you can read some good press about and some not so good press about. Ann: Yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): I started as one of, you know, the first employees there as technically the first intern. And got to see them raise a lot of money, hire a lot of people, do a lot of really cool stuff. one of the highlights was during the global food crisis in 2021, 2022, this is around like the start of the war in Ukraine. Ukraine's a huge breadbasket. I was representing Gro and providing data to the UN, was a part of all these subcommittees and helped inform some billions of dollars and like where this should go. where the places who are importing all this wheat and corn from Ukraine would have a shortage and helping them predict what those knock on effects of the war might be. so I really love the work and it it exposed me to a lot of different skills and experiences that have helped this process. I applied to one grad school, which was Yale's MBA program, which started as a non profit management school. It used to offer a masters in public and private partnership or something like that. MPP I'm not exactly sure. Technically became a business school around two thousand. So I think they're celebrating their twenty fifth year or something just recently. And Ann: my gosh, why was two thousand twenty-five years ago? Sorry. That that that you slammed me with that one, but okay, we're I'm good. I'm back on track. Stefan Oliva (he/him): Yeah. Sorry. I know we were talking about like millennial culture before the call started. That's yeah. Yeah, Borat came out, you know, just a few years ago. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): no. It did have this really strong like lineage of social good. So there were a lot of students who were kinda like me who just applied to this program because they were interested in, okay, maybe coming from a non-mission driven field and trying to get into a mission driven field or already came from one, sometimes pivoting out, but everyone kind of had some connection to it and for me that was super important. Also, you didn't have to take any business school classes your second year, maybe like one or something, like some prereqs. which I very much exercised my right to spend no time at the business school of second year. took a class at the Divinity School. took a bunch of law school classes, was working with the the law, ethics and animal program around animal rights, kinda related to agriculture, not a pi place that I'd I'd really been exposed to, but just people doing incredible work and a really beautiful community trying to, you know. see if there was a way to to help the world. And that meant a lot. My other fun fact is that I lived on a sailboat when I was in grad school, which is not something I necessarily recommend, especially the winters. If we had last winter when I was there, there's no way I could have done it. but I think it's a good maybe representation of me just being curious and and always trying to find another way to get to like maybe doing something interesting and and helpful. Ann: Thinking outside the box, which is which I know that you're giving this whole background, but that's art therapists. even Stefan Oliva (he/him): Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ann: within the mental health profession, I mean maybe I'm a little biased, but I think that art therapists are the outside of the box thinkers in a group of already outside of the box emotional thinkers. So yes. Same break. Stefan Oliva (he/him): Absolutely. And the way that Matthew Brooks: And we're Stefan Oliva (he/him): art therapy straddles two worlds of such deep, rich Matthew Brooks: careful. Stefan Oliva (he/him): quantitative scientific rigor. But then also I think this capital R romantic view that something should never be quantified, which maybe we'll come back to in a little bit 'cause I think that's very relevant. But to me that's like so beautiful and so magical about art therapy. Sorry, Matt. Matthew Brooks: No, no, no, no. I think I mean there's so many things I wanted to say, but I I think going off that last thing was like at the conference when we'll have an episode coming out when we interviewed a lot of the new students who are coming into the field, they have more of an intention of like I heard about art therapy, I grew up wanting to be an art therapist, and I want school to be an art therapist, versus like our generation and the generation prior to To us, w they were like, I fell into art therapy. I discovered art therapy l like as I was already like working in the field or after undergrad at some point. You know, so there there was a lot of like colorful ways that everyone was coming into art therapy and bringing these perspectives. And now I think we are at that What do we call it? A nexus point in which the newer generations are intentionally going into the field because they it the field has grown enough. Anne has something to say. Stefan Oliva (he/him): Sure. that's Ann: Mu much like Matthew Brooks: I saw I saw her wanting to say something. Ann: It's always written all over my face. I have a problem. But Stefanas were listening to your story about how you arrived in creating frame share and we're getting back to it, I promise we just are talkers. Stefan Oliva (he/him): Yeah. Yeah. Ann: But it's so similar to Matt, you're right, about how Matt called us Elder once and I didn't like it. But how a seasoned, more seasoned art therapists or our generation, the generation before us, arrived here because we were interested in helping. We were interested in, you know, just like being a good person, doing the right thing. But also people. Like we had this everybody has this genuine interest in understanding humans and we love humans. so it's funny we all ended up there in the same way. So I know that you always lead well, I s heard in your presentation than here you're leading with like I'm not an art therapist. Well, none of us really were when we got into this field, but if you have Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: a if you have a genuine understanding of why it's so important, then you're our people. That's how we all ended up here. Yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): Well, thank you. Yeah. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): I think that's that's a incredible segue too, and I'll I'll fast forward a bit because Ann: Yeah, that's okay. Stefan Oliva (he/him): in grad school, I had a close friend from high school, Will, who got his MFA at Yale. so an actual studio artist. He right after he graduated started taking some coursework in art therapy, was a registered art therapy student at least at George Washington University. He was the first person to really talk to me about art therapy. He had even started creating some kind of games, artistic tools for art therapists, introduced me to Gretchen Miller, introduced me to like our current advisors for Frameshare too, just people who I was interviewing at the start. and I started as a part of like grad school research, just interviewing over 50 art therapists, a little less than a hundred, and big part of how I would open those conversations was just trying to understand, well, how did you get into art therapy? You I I shared a little bit about myself. I'd love to hear your Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Stefan Oliva (he/him): story too, because I picked up very quickly, like you just said, that it's so personal, the relationship with the field. I did also very much know that, like notice that, Matt, that it's not a great correlation and I don't want to, you know, generalize, but the older, you know The further back in time you got your art therapy degree, the Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): more there was this winding road into, doing all these different jobs and then some moment of my God, art and therapy can be married into this union of of like one specific occupation, professional role and a way to help people. so I definitely did notice that. And the end of the story too was with grad school, at least specifically, is Right when I graduate, grow, it was helping me get through school and I was working for them part time when I was there as well. They have a small office in Connecticut. That was another part of the reason why this one school made so much sense. they went bankrupt, which is part of the bad news that you can read online. it's like covered in the Wall Street Journal and stuff like that. And I realized, okay, I know nothing about art therapy, but this is a field that whose values align with my own. So that's a big thing, I don't know anything about art therapy. I think Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): I have some skills. Part of it was part of that research was like building a small tool that I just gave to people. Frame share is still free, it will always be free. a part of that was, you know, they started asking for more feature and I thought maybe there's a way here that I c I could turn this into something to support myself. However it's gonna work. I you know, the story is still unwritten, but there was that moment where I just realized, okay, it's a field that's so amazing and doing such incredible work and whose values align with my own that I might as well just take it one step at a time and just see where it goes because that's Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Stefan Oliva (he/him): more rare than, you know, knowing things. I can continue to learn and our therapists are so genu generous with their time that I will continue to learn. But yeah, it's kind of tying all those different threads together and stopping it at the end of grad school at least and frame share has continued Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): since then, but Ann: Yeah, absolutely. And Matthew Brooks: Okay. Ann: I go ahead, Matt. Matthew Brooks: No, I'm I'm shifting into a a new question, so if you wanna Ann: all I'm saying is again, the definition of at least me as an art therapist, but I think of a lot of creatives. We just have an idea, jump into it, and then we figure it out along the way because that's how the creative brain works. That's how I've ended up Stefan Oliva (he/him): Yeah, yeah. And that I definitely that resonates. Ann: Yeah, that's Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: how I've ended up, I think, in everything that I do in this field, but also beforehand and all also how I ended up as an art therapist. So again, similar thinking. So that that just makes sense, but Matthew Brooks: Yeah. I wanted to pop over 'cause there was there's a question I wanted to lay out for the rest of our conversation too, was at the Ada conference there was a lot of different people. There was and Frameshare was one of them, there was a couple other vendors and businesses and all of these things. But there was a bit of a controversy, we'll say, that was coming out, getting whispered, getting said publicly on the socials and everything like that, of art therapy. And AI. So I think one of the biggest questions, because I feel like you were getting mixed in with that, or Frameshare was getting mixed into that controversy in the conversation. So is Frameshare AI? Because I think art therapists there like, and being Ann: Very quickly. Matthew Brooks: a tech, you know, technophobic person, I think there was a lot of like tech fear and tech integration is where we are on this, like. balancing point and s like literally going to your presentation and you're like, it's not AI. I'm also the son of a therapist, so please be nice to me. You know, like you know kind of a thing. Stefan Oliva (he/him): Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a cheap shot. I apologize. Yeah, but yeah, correct. Matthew Brooks: Yeah, Ann: I love Matthew Brooks: 'cause Ann: that. Matthew Brooks: there was definitely a lot of conversation at the conference around AI and integration and tech integration into our therapy and what it is and what it's supposed to be and all of these things. So rolling into what frame share is, I wanted to Stefan Oliva (he/him): Mm-hmm. Matthew Brooks: set up for those people who may be listening of like, I wanna see you know, what is it, Ben McKenzie and talking about cryptocurrency and everything like, you know, that I wonder if he's gonna like put up against against the wall for AI and I'm like, no going into this, I you've already said at the conference this is not AI. So what is frameshare? Stefan Oliva (he/him): Yeah. So Frameshare, when I finished that small little V Zero, whatever you want call it, was just three features. It was so simple. It was basically Microsoft Paint where you could collaborate and draw Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Stefan Oliva (he/him): together. the video was inside and then you could just have like a private room. all of that was based on the interviews I did looking through like the challenges, the opportunities, how was a mission driven field? evolving in the face of all these different things. a lot of those conversations were around licensure and advocacy, a lot were around institutional support, recognition, just constantly hearing stories really specific to hospitals and educational systems where art therapists are always justifying or explaining what they're doing, what an art therapist actually is, that it's not Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): an occupational therapist, that it's not a recreational therapist, w you know, who both those Groups do incredible work, but different work. They're definitely not just the arts and crafts person. a lot of it and them being the most popular person at the hospital or in the school, but directors being resistant to hire another person because, you know, there's that research piece and well I every dollar I put in, my job is to put in a dollar and see some like metric pop up higher and whatever. Ann: Yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): And then there was also that last piece around connectivity. This is still coming out of COVID. Everyone's thrust into telehealth overnight. and it Ann: my gosh. Stefan Oliva (he/him): just seemed crazy to me that there was really no HIPAA compliant way to create art online at that point. And hearing all these stories about pulling up like non HIPAA compliant drawing apps and then drawing in that with another video and another screen. Yeah, up and down on Zoom. Ann: Having my clients hold things up or or Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: emailing things. Yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): Of course, there is the Zoom whiteboard. Exactly. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): So I'm like, okay, I definitely can't help, on on a big scale in any way. I I did go up to lobby for the first time in my life, in Albany for State Medicare and Medicaid to reimburse the LCAT, you know, art therapy in New York. so I can help in maybe small ways there, but you know, larger ways, I'm like, okay, well that's that's something over Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): here. But with that connection piece, I'm like, this seems like it could be something that with me having no money would be able to do pretty easily and just start from there and I think to get back to the to the AI point specifically every feature that's on frame share I can point to like the people in the crowd at the conference who suggested those ideas. hopefully it's it's usually more than one. We have like a bunch of people asking for something so we can kind of lay Okay, this is how many people it helps versus how much work it is for us to do. Again, I'll also mention that at one point I I recruited my old coworker very confusingly. His name is Stefan. he has a PhD in neuroscience. Ann: Yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): He knows how to code, everything is is done by him. He's like incredible at all that. but everything that we've built together has been directly asked for by a therapist. And we just haven't had people ask for AI. And I I don't wanna share too much of my own opinions on AI. I'm I'm sure you could probably guess. Ann: Yeah, yeah. And we Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: and w yeah. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): I hope it does great things for drug discovery and I I think there's there's incredible applications for it. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: Yes. And we are we are Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: yeah, we that's a whole another topic. But I love I absolutely, absolutely love because again, going back to how a lot of us art therapists or therapists in general, mental health professionals, find ourselves in this field, it's always a personal story. And I think what you are doing and what I learned about you, not that I was like being a creep, but what I learned about you from reading up about you and Stefan Oliva (he/him): No, please. I hope people snoop on us 'cause we we've done so much Matthew Brooks: Ha ha ha. Stefan Oliva (he/him): of the hard work just showing up and lifting boxes Ann: Yeah, it was it Stefan Oliva (he/him): and talking to people, yeah. Ann: a thousand percent and all of the people that you have connected with. So a lot of the art therapy is a is like a it's like Pittsburgh, big town, small city, or s big big city, Stefan Oliva (he/him): Yeah. Ann: small town, feeling. And so we all know each other, especially once you've been in the field for a while. I I graduated grad school two thousand nine. And so I've all of these people that you are mentioning w I have come into contact one way or another and I can we can in our field what's so great is we can just ask them hey what's going on who is this person and we're all so open so what I love about how you formed this is I went to the source and I formed relationships with these people who have been doing it and what I found out is like yeah we all are helpers that also like help we're all great you can do a thing we can't do I can't touch a computer without it exploding but we have a need and so you reach Matthew Brooks: It's very true. Ann: You reached out to the right people. And I just love that about about Frameshare. I love that about how you went about it. Yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): Yeah, thank you. I appreciate Matthew Brooks: And i and Stefan Oliva (he/him): it. And Matthew Brooks: I I think with that too it is you are finding you found a need in the the niche versus making a need. In the niche, but when it comes to technology, you're you talk to the therapist. And and there were some other presentations, it's like, we've come up with this thing here that can help during therapy sessions. I'm like, I'm I'm not gonna use that because I'm gonna be in the middle of my therapy session and be wait, hold on, let me stop the session and stop whatever you're talking about to process. Like what you found. Is something that we've been since COVID kind of struggling with in that tool field of like how do I virtually have a client draw something that I can see them creating and and everything, and and there is that like you talk to Gretchen Miller, you talk to these therapists, and it's like, hey, this is the tool I need. I have no idea how to code. It's like, how does Ann: Well. Matthew Brooks: this work? Ann: Say it was even in need, and I don't know, Stefan, if other art therapists talked to you about this, but telehealth did exist before COVID, and Stefan Oliva (he/him): Yeah. Yeah. Ann: and I worked before I started my practice, I worked in inpatient and residential settings mainly, and I worked mainly with for a very long time the autism population of kiddos Stefan Oliva (he/him): Amazing. Ann: and adults who were nonverbal. We were using this was hilarious. I was at the special education placement and the vice principal was like, I got a grant and everybody's getting iPads and we were all like, This is gonna be a shit show because these kids are nobody Matthew Brooks: Yep. Ann: knows that it was like nobody knows what they're doing on the blah blah blah. But as the only art therapist in that setting who didn't even have the title of art therapist, I was like behavioral supervisor or something. I was using things that probably weren't Stefan Oliva (he/him): Yeah. Yeah. Ann: Well, in that setting. They probably weren't the best option. in order to do my art sessions, or they were called social skills groups, because again, we just find our way with these nonverbal kiddos. And so we have always been just reaching for tools that we could use creatively ever since the online like ever since we had the internet. You know? Yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): Yeah. Yeah. I think the COVID just made it this this kind of Faustian bargain for a lot of people. Beforehand it seemed like people had more of a choice. I Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Stefan Oliva (he/him): could go into a telehealth route or I could stay, primarily in person where whereas now I did a a C event with Gretchen recently and there's so many people that just were curious, have never done it, but just wanted to learn more. Could it help? Could I do hybrid? Could I bring on one more person in my practice if maybe we do hybrid, they come in half the time, the other half they are remote, just because they live a little bit further away than would be normal for, Ann: Yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): clients that I see. and that's also not Ann: Yeah, but the Stefan Oliva (he/him): to say that that frame share is perfect in any way. Like we're very grateful Ann: Yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): of everyone who gives us feedback, reports bugs, you know, works with us. It's still browser based. You don't have to s your clients don't have to sign up. They you don't want to or whatever. With browser based, it makes it very accessible. Sometimes it depends on Wi Fi and how strong your device is. So again, it's it's it's most certainly not perfect. Ann: Yeah, but I think that I just I I I'm I'm again learning more about it and we're sitting here talking to you, but even outside of telehealth, I think that th art therapists, art therapists in particular, still need a resource online at several settings that aren't private practice. residential facilities, school facilities, group facilities, I they have group classes where kids are already connecting only electronically within that class. So I have no idea. I'm I will fully admit that I haven't looked into if that this is part of frame share, but even if everybody was on logged on to something like a bunch of kids in the same class that they could be interacting would be huge. Stefan Oliva (he/him): Absolutely. Ann: so it's not I think that all of us think telehealth, even when Matt was when we think online, but this is now a reality. Like my daughter is in kindergarten and has a laptop This is now a reality of Stefan Oliva (he/him): Yeah. Ann: all of, you know, of of kids of the future of mental health when they get into therapy, they're gonna be better at using this stuff than we are as therapists. So having a space like yours that is built by, sorry, built by you, but built by us too, feels really comfortable to start to navigate Stefan Oliva (he/him): Absolutely, yeah. Ann: that. Stefan Oliva (he/him): Yeah. And a big part of the almost the first thing I say in every situation is that I actually hate tech. I say that flippantly. Of course tech does a lot of good stuff. but it's it's terrifying that kids are on screens this early. personally I Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): always prefer to do physical art and when I had my little booth at the marketplace, like I spent so much time like the reason I have all these Ann: I love those. Stefan Oliva (he/him): things on my desk Matthew Brooks: yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): It's not that I plan this to have on my desk, it's that my room is a a mess so I can reach everything within arm's reach here. the tie dye T shirts that are all one of one, each card individualized, is just to show the the art and the human aspect of it is is the core of art therapy and I I don't think changing that. I think it's just helping more people realize that's what it is. If anything, this is a strong word, but I I almost see art therapy as the antidote to some aspects of AI Where you can press a button and suddenly output is, you know, in like infinite, it's in t instantaneous. You're not necessarily struggling with ambiguity anymore. I feel like that human aspect of it, the process Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Stefan Oliva (he/him): aspect of it, that becomes the most important thing in a world where AI is doing everything that's you know, accounting or legal stuff or anything that's like rigidly Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): logic based. I I just don't think Ann: Yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): AI could ever do this. And I to me that's gonna only make our therapy more and more relevant and art therapy the core of what it is, really. So Ann: Yeah. Yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): Yeah, that's the glimmer of hope. There's also the scary part on the other side too, so Ann: Yeah. No, I Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: I couldn't agree more and I think that there are benefits to both for different things. But as far as creativity goes, yeah, like I said, my I I think I shared it. I brought your sticker home and my kids fill up my bar with stickers. Stefan Oliva (he/him): Yeah, thank you. I saw, yeah. Ann: I mean, we haven't even have stickers on the side of my car. We kinda do whatever we want. But Stefan Oliva (he/him): Okay. I love that. Ann: I loved telling her because I tell her these kinds of things all the time, just because of who I am as a therapist and a person. I'm like, an artist made this, honey. Like you like, I bought her one of the Yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): Yeah, Will made that. Will Will an actual artist for sure. He made the hand. Ann: Yeah. And I love, I love because sh I like her to have that that narrative and that thought process as she's walking through life. When she walks into her giant school that every kid gets she's five. She gets handed a laptop and they're on the smart board and all of that's very helpful. But it is our job. And again, I'm gonna get a little mom here, but it's our job as h humans, as parents, as but as professionals to keep bridging the gap of yes, tech is going to be part of our lives. But the creativity Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Ann: is where the humans come from and that's what creates connection. That's what creates healing. That's what creates That's what's problem solving. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: so I again I just love I do feel like you're bridging those gaps because I couldn't use anything you couldn't everyone's like, I can tell that's AI, I can tell I can't I don't go online. I mean I post things on Instagram, but that's about it. I don't know how to use my computer, I don't know how to. But we do need to do that as professionals because the younger generation is. I sound so old. I'm Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: not that old, but Matthew Brooks: You're just seasoned. Ann: I'm seasoned. But yeah, I love I love I love that. Matthew Brooks: But I Yeah, and I and I think Stefan Oliva (he/him): Appreciate that. Yeah. Matthew Brooks: when it comes to that, like you it's really nice hearing you as a person who's outside of art therapy get it when you're like the process i and the human side of it is art therapy because that's what like we've been shouting from the tops of the mountains for so long that like somebody else and we're like yeah that guy gets it you know kind of a thing Stefan Oliva (he/him): It was fun when I was lobbying 'cause I I am on Medicaid, State Medicaid, and I was looking for an art therapist in New York, that was affordable for Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): the budget of Frameshare being free. And I was like, No, I'm here because I ne this is my need. It's not just all art therapists Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): obviously hoping to have, you know, more people be able to get art therapy, which is beautiful and the most important Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): thing. But I was also like, actually, this is a great time to make things really personal and, you know, to to have my voice Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: Yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): add something to the to the to the argument. Yeah. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. I'm a client and you can too, right? Ann: And I and I love of the story because you were saying before we started recording and then you shared your personal story and you also shared that you connect when you were connecting with art therapists to build this for art therapists, you were asking their story. And isn't that kind of the foundation of everything that all of us are doing, even if we're all practicing differently? Like we got here first and so you wanted to understand why you knew why it was important to you, but you wanted to understand why Stefan Oliva (he/him): Mm-hmm. Ann: it was important to all of us in order to make it workable. And I love that because Stefan Oliva (he/him): Absolutely. Ann: We the only reason Matt and I have this podcast is because A we like to hang out and talk and B we like to hear people's stories. genuinely enjoy it. Stefan Oliva (he/him): Yeah. The stories I heard Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): of people that I was able to connect with through art therapy that, it's part of why I think so many people love travel on such a profound level. It's I would just never be able to connect with these stories and see a part of the world that that travel and art therapy for me as a form of travel has been able to provide me. Meeting people I was talking with, the the pioneer of equine assisted art therapy, which I'm like, I don't Is that on the horse, is it with the horse, not to say flippantly, but it's just incredible. It's so so cool and how people got into it and found these things and started building communities and especially with art therapy at the end of the day, the most important thing like the care that our therapists are providing and like the to me talking to art therapists at the conference and seeing how joyful they can be and then talking about a client and how, you know immense they're they're issues are and how they've been able to help them, being able to balance those two things in their head at the same time, seeing from my mom, Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): how you can bear that as a therapist. Of course, you're strong people, but you know, these things they add up and accumulate. It's that I I know I couldn't do that. So this is like, okay, how can I help? but you know, Ann: Well Stefan Oliva (he/him): maybe not beyond the front lines, so to speak. Ann: In the space that you created and what I'm now more and more understanding, the space that you created gave us permission to take our personal practice, like the way that our story has landed us to be a therapist and apply it with our clients without that much interference. For example, when I'm working with like some people might stay quiet while their client is creating art. I have a hard time staying quiet. But we can be we can y in a space that's that is more controlled and and and and framed around our therapist work, we can do with it what we want to do with it. Then we can use it how we want to use it, which is really, really nice. because even though we all have the same thing, we all practice differently. Stefan Oliva (he/him): And there's this flywheel effect because there there are so many, Matthew Brooks: Ha ha ha. Stefan Oliva (he/him): new aspects and features and I guess products for lack of a better word, that we're now building because we never would have thought of it, but we just continue to talk to art therapists and they use it in a million different ways. that we never it's just like continuing to talk and reach out and see what you need and build that and then more people join and then, they have new ideas and we figure out, how how can this hopefully just expand our therapy? And that's the the North Star of what we're doing is just how do we expand access to our therapy. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. I mean that's what art therapists are asking too, right? And Ann: Yeah. Matthew Brooks: I think also going back to like you meeting art therapists at the conference, how many different patterns did you see art therapists wearing at the conference? How many colors? Ann: I was like I was wondering where you were asking stories. Stefan Oliva (he/him): Joking. I I learned two phrases related Matthew Brooks: You know. Stefan Oliva (he/him): to fashion. I I learned what a a kaftan? A kaftan? I don't even know how pronounce it. Okay. I learned Matthew Brooks: yeah. Yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): what that was. Because someone's like, I bet you're gonna see a lot of caftans at the conference. I'm like, what is that? And then sure enough, someone mentioned it at the conference. Matthew Brooks: Yep. Ann: Yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): and then I learned the phrase statement jewelry, which I was unfamiliar with. And someone mentioned that at the conference on my Okay. Matthew Brooks: Yep. Yeah. Yes. Ann: That we Stefan Oliva (he/him): I've got a couple neurons connected, yeah. Ann: that we made. the state mentory that we created. I'd like to Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The statement jewelry that is handmade. Yep. Stefan Oliva (he/him): Make where, Yeah. Yeah. Ann: To very much art therapists Stefan Oliva (he/him): Okay. Ann: do ooze creativity, but they also ooze themselves. I don't think that it's possible. Even those of I'm would never consider myself an introvert, but even those of us that are introverts, s you still can hear and see our story because we're so open and sharing it. And again, I've Stefan Oliva (he/him): Yeah. Ann: said this a million times within this conversation. I think that that's why so many art therapists are connecting with you and this program so much is because you're doing the same. You're it's you're being up front and you're sharing and it is a representation of you, which is what we all do. We're wearing our statement jewelry. We're we're walking around. We're telling our story. We're Yeah. We're like Stefan Oliva (he/him): You're making your statement jewellery, yeah, in real time at the marketplace. It's Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): like incredible. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: Yeah. We're like, here is how we ended up here, here's the trauma that we went through and this is what's worked. And I think that that's Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: just part of the community. And I do feel in the limited interactions that we've had, but also my understanding of you through people who spoke very highly of you that I know, I think that you do the same. Stefan Oliva (he/him): Well, thank you. That's that means a lot. Ann: Yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): For sure. Yeah, yeah. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yeah. Ann: So how go ahead. No, 'cause I was about Stefan Oliva (he/him): I I also really like that go ahead and no, I I was just gonna say very Ann: to I was about to ask like how do we tell listeners how to find you, how to connect so Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: go ahead, do do your thing first before I go there. Stefan Oliva (he/him): Yeah. also please like any other hard hitting I feel like you you guys are are so sweet and nice, I Ann: Yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): you can you can really press me on stuff. I I would love to Ann: Ha ha ha. Stefan Oliva (he/him): be pressed, but yeah, frame share is entirely free and you know, to be totally transparent around our business model, which was something that very much happened after the fact, I think going back to what you said Anne. finding things out as you go and just seeing a way to do something Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Stefan Oliva (he/him): and then okay the other aspects will figure itself out. There's deep faith that if we make something that's useful, that that stuff will figure itself out. so frame share now technically makes more money than it spends on like the real things that would ever make it disappear overnight. so we should very much feel Ann: Yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): f like confident that if you start using it's not gonna just disappear tomorrow. I have not paid myself Ann: Celebration. Stefan Oliva (he/him): anything from Frameshare. You can go on the website and there is a pricing page. It's it's a pay what you want if you find use from it. You could do a ten dollar a month subscription and that would be awesome. we're adding billing and insurance shortly. And I know a lot of other programs, you know, software services charge quite a bit per month for that. So maybe there's like a tiered pricing and then the art is always free, and then, you know, maybe that we we charge a little bit for, or something like that. Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Stefan Oliva (he/him): and then the other idea that has helped us, Ann: That's really I'm very interested in that. Stefan Oliva (he/him): yeah, yeah. It's crazy and my my typical relationship with the American healthcare system is to not get sick. I know that's a little morbid, but I know so little about it. It's been such a crazy learning experience. It does seem like purposefully hard to understand sometimes. but we're getting there. We found an incredible partner that can do, you know, eligibility checks and file claims, submit claims. ERA stuff would probably come like one step Matthew Brooks: Good. Stefan Oliva (he/him): after. and yeah, if there's like educational programs, grad schools, or larger private practices who want us to build them something specific or just have enough money to, you know, have like a an enterprise kind of subscription, that obviously subsidizes all the costs for individual practitioners. We always want to be the place where if an art therapist gets sick and doesn't feel like their clients like the has to see their clients that day. it would be amazing if they just come on and use Frameshore for one day and never use it again. Like that would be so cool. and a lot Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): of people have used it for that. And there was a big group from New York City Alpin hospitals that used this during a snowstorm and, you know, hasn't come back and that's fantastic. Ann: I wish I would have known I actually am so glad I know about it now, but when I was when my kids are young, but I'm a single mom and so I could have used that a million times throughout Stefan Oliva (he/him): Yeah, exactly. Ann: navigating like even clients around childcare. Yeah. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): Supervision, being able to match people with theoretical frameworks for populations that, they work with, if they happen to be in very different places. I think a big part of the Ann: my gosh, yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): holy the holy grail too is if we could actually bring more people into art therapy. But that becomes like B to C and you definitely need a lot of money to start doing that. there is a statistic from the APA though that I think like really motivates at least at least me and I know the the rest of our team and advisors that Over fifty percent of people looking for therapists talk to two or more therapists before they settle long term with one they really connect with. And I think a big part of that is that, a lot of the places where you'd find them right now, it's hard to differentiate yourself. You can say you work with these populations, you can say you work with trauma, whatever. but it's still hard to get a sense for who the person is. So moving Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): towards a space where we have like a visually based kind of way for people to find each other. If an art therapist can share their art, it's just that old trope that a picture's worth a thousand words, maybe that's a way for people to more easily connect. but yeah, and if that happens then that that would really be amazing. But that's still a little bit further in the future, just because of resources and Ann: Yeah. No, I love that idea. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): timing and stuff, yeah. Ann: Of a friend of mine and I who again we have zero ability to do anything tech wise. I can't use my phone. But a couple years ago we were like, wouldn't it be great like not this is a joke. This is a half joke. But wouldn't it be great if you could chat with your therapist like on a dating app and if you didn't match, you just Okay, on to the next But honestly having a Stefan Oliva (he/him): Yeah, look. And that's that's how these ideas start, yeah. Ann: Yeah, honestly having a space to be able to have a conversation like this for ten minutes where a therapist doesn't have to schedule a consult or in person, y you I Stefan Oliva (he/him): Mm-hmm. Ann: you'd find a better match much more quickly than going through insurance for a session or two and finding out it's not. But anyway. Yeah, love that. Yeah. Yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): Okay. Well then you know where to find us. We like I said, we can build whatever ideas you have. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. That would be wild though, speed therapy where it is just like you're like, hi, here's my trauma. I have ten minutes. And then just like jump to the next one. Hi, here's my trauma. Yeah. Ann: Yeah. Well, it wouldn't be it was a joke. It was like let's look at their stats and then move on. but anyways, I feel like we have five thousand more things to talk about. We are going to share all of your info, contact, website, and such. Stefan Oliva (he/him): Awesome. Thank you. Ann: so because we were at conference, we have two weeks of episodes already going out. So this will air soon, but everybody will see it and we will include below all of the stuff for everyone to contact you and access and all Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Stefan Oliva (he/him): amazing. Thank you. Yeah. Ann: the things. But we were just so happy to have you on today and maybe you need to Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: we say this to so many people, but it's Stefan Oliva (he/him): Yeah, thank you. Ann: true. Maybe you need to come back because we ha we have a lot more to talk about. Stefan Oliva (he/him): Whenever you'll have me for sure. Yeah. we didn't even really get into what Fram Share does, which I I'm not trying to use anything as advertising. my the we've Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Stefan Oliva (he/him): spent zero dollars on marketing too, which is, a representation of our resources. the Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): way marketing kinda takes care of itself when you just show up and volunteer and, you know, make art with people Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: Amazing. Stefan Oliva (he/him): in person and tell what you're doing. Ann: That Matt and I have talked about that so many that's why I do so many community events is because Stefan Oliva (he/him): Yeah. Ann: why pay for it when I can well you can just meet me. so anyways Yeah, I also get to Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): And you're also getting the the joy of a community event, right? a twofer. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: hang out at really cool places. But yes, let's do that because I think I speak for both of us. Sorry, Matt, you couldn't speak up, but I I'm pretty sure. Is that we would love to have you back Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: on again to talk more in depth and because this is something that is really important to get the word out about f to the art therapist. Because a lot of us are just learning about it. Like myself included, Matthew Brooks: Yeah, yeah. Ann: pre-conference when Cynthia connected us. So yeah, let's Stefan Oliva (he/him): For sure. Ann: do that. Stefan Oliva (he/him): I I also know you have your well oiled machine here, but we could always Matthew Brooks: What? Stefan Oliva (he/him): host it on Frameshare and you know, when one person is bored of the other two talk and you could start drawing or, you know. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: So we totally could do that. Matthew Brooks: That's what I was thinking for the next for the next episode I think we'll do a full frame share like expo. Ann: We we could absolutely do that. I love that you also think we're a well oiled machine 'cause that's so not what we are. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): Well, you have you have balance, balance that's, representative Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): of art therapy. I I yeah, I'm very deeply impressed by anyone who chooses to get into art therapy at, the minimum, but then then you guys also maring these worlds of information and and sharing that and making sure that it it can flow and people can learn and understand and really get to the the crux of what the issues are in in a very Ann: Yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): a very Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): powerful, very powerful, amazing community. Ann: could talk about this for hours and so again another reason for another set another session, another episode. but we've talked about it with other guests too. Art therapists have always been advocating for themselves within their workspaces, but I feel very strongly that we should also there should be nothing holding us back from sharing what we do on across platforms with the world. You know, in the Stefan Oliva (he/him): Yeah. Yeah. Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Ann: commun we don't have to be doing art therapy to be able to share the importance of it. So anyways Stefan Oliva (he/him): Sure. Ann: Yes. Stefan Oliva (he/him): There's a lot of people out me like there that un just feel that art and therapy were words that were meant to be together, but of course I didn't know who Judy Rubin was or picking an apple from the tree. it's just it's a matter Ann: Yeah. I didn't know about it. Matthew Brooks: Judy. Yeah. Ann: Yeah, I didn't know about it 'til I was applying for grad schools and I was I was Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: at Alford University in upstate New York and art art psych and okay. Yeah. I'm in I'm in. Of course he was ceramics. Yeah, that was it's a big ceramic school, but yeah. Stefan Oliva (he/him): Yeah, yeah. That's where Will he was a professor there for one year, two years. Yeah. He was a ceramics sculpt sculptor professor. Yeah. Yeah. They're a big thing, yeah. Yeah. Ann: and I have a lot of history in ceramics, blah blah blah. But I had a professor walk up to me and be like, this is a thing, right? you're doing both of these things. You're killing yourself with all these Matthew Brooks: Ha ha ha. Stefan Oliva (he/him): Yeah. Ann: majors. Why aren't you joining them? I was like, 'Cause no one told me. What? Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: So now we know. Stefan Oliva (he/him): You're the first. Yeah. Ann: but okay, we were so happy to have you on. We're gonna have you on again. We're gonna share Stefan Oliva (he/him): Yeah, likewise. Ann: all your stuff. and yeah, thank you. Matthew Brooks: Yay, thank you. Stefan Oliva (he/him): My d my deep, deep pleasure. Yeah. It was so nice to talk to you briefly at the conference and and this is a lot of fun. It's a great way to start a day. I guess maybe not totally started anymore, but yeah. Ann: Great. Matthew Brooks: Yay. Thank Ann: Yeah. Okay, everybody, Matthew Brooks: you guys. Ann: stay tuned. We're gonna have another episode. So all right. Bye everyone. Matthew Brooks: Bye.