Matthew Brooks: Ha ha ha. Ann: Great. I'll just respond to this text. And I'm here. Hi everybody. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. ⁓ Ann: It is like it's kinda good. So Yeah, can you hear it? She she is she like I swear this happens every time. So I put food in her bowl at like frickin' six thirty AM, like seven, like in the morning. And I even put like a little topper for her. And the minute that I'm on a video call, which I have had phone calls so far this morning. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Dinah chewing on something? ⁓ little bit. It just started creeping in. ⁓ Yeah. Ann: She's like, time to eat. Like I'm just gonna you you're you doing something that's sound. I'm just gonna go chomp on my food. She does it every time. Like that is the opposite of what a therapy dog should be doing. I guess she just wants to be part of it. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Let's go let's go crunch. Yeah. Yeah. Well it's hilarious 'cause my one dog will like during therapy sessions, I'm in the same spot and I'm talking to people and my one dog will come and you'll just see like two little ears just at the bottom of the screen and then just sit there and just like and like I want attention and then will jump into my lap a seventy pound dog like jumping into like trying to get up into the chair. So I'm like Ann: Mm-hmm. Matthew Brooks: Everybody, everybody I work with. It's like, yeah, so ⁓ you know, this is really stressing me out. Is that a dog? Hi. Yeah. Ann: Yeah. Whenever I love that. Whenever because it happens, like, ⁓ if I'm doing virtual sessions and she enters, or the cat, you're like, Is that an animal? But I do the same thing on sessions, like when I when there's an animal that enters, I'm like, Hey, what's going on there? Or middle middle of talking about a crisis and I'm like, We need we kinda need to say hi to the dog. ⁓ Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Ann: And that's the magic that she brings to the office too. Like when I take her in on I can pretty much take her every day except for I have ⁓ one client that isn't cool with dogs and that's totally fine 'cause that's a thing. ⁓ but that's like another day she's there. But f everybody, even people that aren't my clients, that I obviously text like my other therapists and stuff, when the dog's there, they're like, ⁓ a dog Like Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Ann: We wanna say hi. And of course she's just like sleeping in the corner because she does nothing. Animal therapy is very real. Matthew Brooks: Yes. Yeah. Ann: when they you had them come to children's I loved when they came to Western Psych too. And so did everyone. Like so did all the the there was never issues when the dogs were on the units. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. And the ones that came to children's were awesome because you would get like the cute little like smaller dogs and stuff, but then all of a sudden like I would look out like the playroom window and just see an Irish wolfhound, like purebred Irish wolfhound, just like gallop or not galloping, but just like moseying by. And I'm just like, ⁓ that's a big boy Like, ⁓ hi. Yeah. Ann: Calloping. Yeah. Matthew Brooks: They would bring mastiffs, they would bring like all kinds of different dogs there. It was awesome. Ann: And I'm sure that it was I mean, I know that the kids loved it. Cause there's been clients that I've had that have been obviously through children's for several reasons and the dog's like their favorite. Matthew Brooks: ⁓ yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. They brought other animals, ⁓ like the penguins would come like from the zoo. Yeah, the the penguins from the zoo would come to children's. Yeah, it was awesome. They would paint pictures for the kids. Yeah. It was amazing. Ann: What? Wait, I did not know. What did in what kap in what in what? In what capacity? Did you say the penguins were painting pictures? You need to just I I need to rewind. Start over. Matthew Brooks: Yeah, they would dip Yeah. So the penguins from the Pittsburgh Zoo, not the team, would come and visit the the children in the hospital. Yeah. And they would have it in the big, like, central area. And they would roll out like a big piece of paper and ⁓ Ann: The animal. Matthew Brooks: They would dip the penguins' feet in paint and they will water across the paper. So they would just paint like all these different pictures of all these little tippy tap feet going across and the kids could keep Yeah. That was amazing. Ann: That's adorable. Did they poop? What do penguins need? How how long can they be away from their habitat? I have so many questions. Matthew Brooks: Yes. They pooped. Yeah. They I mean they were g there for probably they would come out like in b bursts. It wasn't like they were out for like forty five minutes. It was like they'd be in a room and everything and they'd come out for like fifteen minutes or something, I think. Ann: Didn't you also tell me there was like a horse in another house? Not ⁓ that wasn't a chicken. ⁓ my gosh. When I worked at the residential facility that had an animal program. I've told I've said this a million times. We had a mini cow. I loved the mini cow. Kids loved the mini cow. Hated the chickens. Do not like chickens. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. They would have horses. ⁓ huh. Mini horse. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Ann: My son wants he loves chickens. If he sees like a stuffed chicken, he's like, Mama chicken. I'm like, that's hilarious that you love those, but and the other day, ⁓ have you ever heard of Rural King? Matthew Brooks: Yeah. No. Ann: It's like it's like a tractor supply on steroids. It's very western Pennsylvania. And we were at we were camping this weekend and we stopped at a rural king and they have like chickens. You can go see the chickens. My kids had a meltdown in Rural King. 'Cause I wouldn't get a chicken. They're like, Mom, we need a chicken. I'm like, what first of all Matthew Brooks: ⁓ okay. Yes. Nice. Yeah. No. Yeah. Ann: No. Like second, like you need a habitat for a chicken. You we we can't just take a chicken home and have it like live in the house. It was the whole thing. Yeah, and they're like, I don't know, you've you've actually proven otherwise with some of the things that you've done. They're like, I don't understand. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yeah. And they're like, watch me. We'll take a chicken home and we'll live in the house. You do have the space for chickens. Yeah. Ann: You say yes to a lot of things. I'm not sure why we can't get a chicken. I'm like, Well, no chickens. I just don't I just w the kids I would take the kids down at this program that I worked at and they would wanna see the horses and the mini cow and like the annual and the annual program was wonderful and I loved everybody that worked there and they would be like, I wanna go to the chickens. I'd be like, Really? Are you sure? And they would go inside ⁓ Matthew Brooks: 'Cause 'cause mom hates chickens. Ann: The chicken thing. Coop. And there'd just be shit everywhere. Like chicken. And I would be like. And they would be holding these chickens. And the chickens were chill. But they would be holding them. Squeezing them. And the chickens were like totally. But I would just be looking at their feet and they would be like, Miss Ann, come in. And I'd be I can't I can't, guys. I you have seen me. Matthew Brooks: Coop. Yeah. Everywhere. Yeah. Yeah. Ann: do a lot of things that you would think that I'd be cool with this. I'm just not. I don't know what it is. About them. ⁓ and then they would leave the chicken coop area and I'd be like, you gotta sanitize like w you gotta wash yourself down. We can't go anywhere. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yeah. Your whole self. Yeah. Ann: Yeah, meanwhile I would I was like restraining them in the horse pasture like twenty minutes ago and I like, You're good. I don't know what it was about I mean, I would make them sanitize, but like it wasn't the same. I don't know what it is about chickens. I can't do it. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yeah. Ann: What are we talking about today? Matthew Brooks: I was waiting for that because this story was going, and I was just like, Ann's gonna realize she's hit a dead end. Well, ⁓ I think we've hit on this subject before, but I think we've gotten some responses from people, but talking not just about like art therapists or therapists who are friends with normal people. Ann: What are we doing? What are we doing today? ⁓ Matthew Brooks: But I've also had clients who are like, I want to make more friends or I don't have enough friends or I'm new to a city and I I wanna like figure out as an adult like how to make friends. So how do I do it? You know? How do I make friends? Ann: Well, yeah, we talked about this because I don't think it's just adults. I think that because I have kids, teens, obviously we see clients that may struggle with social relationships or b that's a big thing, at least for my clientele, ev regardless of what they have going on. But I do think that COVID Matthew Brooks: Mm. Mm-hmm. Ann: Social media, ⁓ I mean the internet in general, like I think that this has been building for a while, but we'll just I'm just gonna focus on like the co post-COVID and social media. Adults definitely do not struggle with making new friends if they are not around like consistent old. friends, like they're moving, they're in a different situation, whatever. ⁓ breakups, divorces, like all of that. They struggle to form new relationships. And kids and teens just don't know how to do it. I don't know. That's a bold that's a Yeah. It's a bold statement. Now I'll watch my kids like organically interact. Like that is different. Like 'cause they're little, like whatever. Matthew Brooks: Yeah, I mean there were six years for them not having to do it, so their the development there. Yeah. Ann: I think that happens, but my teens and I'm gonna say like my like middle school teen like the kids the the COVID kids if they're they're really struggle with new relationships and they struggle with like it is so norm for friendships to be just online. I have several clients who I'm constantly talking to them about like, well, what are you engaging with socially outside the home? and it's not happening. They don't go do it. And they're like, Well, I talk to my friends online while I'm gaming, or I talk to my friends online, or we talk on Snapchat like constantly. It's like, well, when did you hang out? When did make plans? And they're not now it definitely still exists. Like my nephew hangs out with his friend, like whatever. But I do think that it's a huge shift. And it's something that Matthew Brooks: Yeah, and I I I think it's a generational shift too. Like that that is Ann: Yeah, but it's and it's it's not like it's not so happening, but especi 'cause I see kiddos on the spectrum, I k I see people who are going through obviously we're all see people who are going through like changes, that's when you see how it's difficult to form new friendships. or I have a lot of kids that are like, ⁓ maybe they're in cyber school or maybe and it's hard for them. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ Ann: Because it's not set up the same. The world is not set up the same. Even through their school, I had the really I was shopping and promises related. I was shopping for backpacks for my kids for the school year because you have to get ⁓ now before everybody takes them because in s everybody's insane. And they all had headphones. I was like, why do these 'cause my kids are little. Matthew Brooks: Yes. Yeah. Ann: Why do these have headphones? Like why are we getting headphones? And why is the port? Like it's not even what you would use for something that we own. And then ⁓ a therapist friend person of mine was like, ⁓ because they all have like they include headphones because they all are gonna have iPads or pads. And I'm like, ⁓ And she's like, Yeah, my kids, that's how they send them everything. That's how they do everything. And I knew that because I work with I just like forgot. And I'm like, ⁓ they even communicate with teachers and friends and things through their school. That's how they do it. They're not that's how they connect outside of school, like for a group project. Like remember when you had to like call everybody, cold call them on the phone and be like, You wanna get together to work on this poster? That doesn't happen anymore. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Mm-hmm. No. No. And like I was saying, we're gonna f sound like some old heads here with like the generational change because even for us Like I I think I've made this joke before, but it's it it is very much of like screening the answering machine if somebody were to call the house. if somebody knocks on the d the door you don't answer it, you know, and everything like that, where the generation before us was just getting in random cars and hitchhiking and like doing other things. So it's like there is an evolution with like the social interactions and everything. It is more isolated. Ann: Yeah. Matthew Brooks: That being said, like the Roblox and the game chat rooms and and different things like that are like the playgrounds and parks for this generation. But it it is really bringing in the question of like attachment, right? Where it is like that stability with friendships, right? Because I I even have clients who are the COVID kids who are coming up and they're getting into these like more complex friendship, trust, attachment style interactions where it is like this person did something that hurt my feelings or betrayed me or whatever. And much like if you're on the game, you just like mute them, right? So it's like we're not friends anymore. Done. You know? So I'm like, where's the attachment? Where's the sitting with it of like, you pissed me off. Let's talk about it, right? Even with you, I checked in like I was like, hey, did I like Ann: Okay. Even Matthew Brooks: piss you off the other week and you're like, No. I was like, okay, I just wanted to make sure 'cause I wasn't like responding to s I don't know what I did, but Ann: I was like, no Matt, I just fell off the face of the earth and didn't rescue. I just read a text message. but I I'm so glad you brought that up because even my kiddos that are involved, like super socially involved in like Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yeah. I'm like, so did I. Just wanted the check. Yeah. Ann: whatever, activities, sports, go out and about. That is still a I I sit there in session and they talk about like the group chats, the text messages, the blocking. It's like everybody's blocking somebody every other day. And I'm like, what is that? Okay. And so it's like this un there is now an an unspoken rule book on social media and your phone and whatever of like I've been blocked, I've been removed, you've been and that's just like then you just don't interact with that person. Like and I ⁓ I have clients that are like, ⁓ well I was removed from the group chat, you know, which is very, very painful. And then they're like, So at school we just don't like it they I just know we don't like sit together anymore. And like I get it, I get that that's where things are moving. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Ann: But I agree with you. Like I remember being that age and having something happen with like a friend or in my social group or whatever. And you you had to deal with like Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: walk up to the lunch table, which is com was completely insane, by the way. Like a really heavy weight and it sucked. But there was no indicator of who was what was going on until you found out like face to face and somebody told you or you had to deal with and then you like sat through the day. And you know what? Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yeah. No. Yeah. Ann: That sucked and it caused some childhood like whatever. But it was also necessary necessary to sit with difficult things and learn how to respond to them and be like, I or like you go to a teacher or a guidance counselor or your parent or your friend or whatever, like friends usually, and you're like, What the hell's going on? And then you would have to navigate through it and that doesn't happen as often. And so therefore those like sitting with the uncomfortable stuff, dealing with it doesn't it doesn't happen as often and they're coming to therapy and they're talking Matthew Brooks: Yes. Mm-hmm. No. Ann: About like well, I guess I'm just out now. And then there's the unspoken, you just get added back in, or like someone sends you a snap, and it's like I guess we're cool. Like, what? No conversations, and that's not helping for future adult relationships. And then we can talk about how the adults are dealing with that because ⁓ man. Matthew Brooks: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Ann: Myself included. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. I mean adding adding on to that too is like with the the younger generation, the COVID kids, again is this trend that I'm seeing coming out of it is sitting when things are difficult, like persevering with frustrations and adversity and stuff is like that doesn't happen. And I may be generalizing that, but a the bulk of like the clients that I'm working with who are in a very specific age range where it like schoolwork gets more complex a every school year or friendships get more complex or anything and it's just like bail. But then the rubber band effect on that is the opposite of like well if everything just bails, if some if I say something wrong or do something or just exist and people bail on me Then I am questioning everything I'm doing, everything I'm saying, and now I have anxiety and I need to know the answers of what's gonna happen before I make a decision. And that's the other side of like the kids I'm working with is this like I'm scared to death of actually doing anything because I could lose it. I'm like, no, you're supposed to make mistakes. You're supposed to try things out, try new identities, try like dye your hair. Wear different clothes than you usually do. Like try it. But they're they're like, I need to know the answers before that. And I'm like, You you don't. Yeah. Ann: 'Cause they can 'cause you can access them. 'Cause all of the answers are right there and it kind of takes that piece away and we could go into how that's that whole thing. Do you think that social media is causing avoidance behavior? As a norm. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yeah. So social media. there it's a double-edged sword because social media is causing avoidance behavior and like a herd mentality with bullying, with groupthink, with you know different stuff like that, as well as it is the new playground. It is like if if there is a kid and I've seen this even clients where like I want to be on social media, I want to be on Instagram. Ann: Or like Matthew Brooks: be on TikTok. I want to be on Snapchat. And most of the time I I draw the line on Snapchat because Snapchat is incredibly toxic. Yeah. And I understand like if there's millions of dollars and people being poured into like the safety and the regulation and stuff and you guys are figuring it out and this is the like the wild west of it, sure. But Snapchat has not made any effort for any safety regulations whatsoever. So Ann: Yeah. Snapchat has been the biggest problem for all of my clients. Whenever there is a teen that has something happen at school, it's because they did something stupid on Snapchat. Matthew Brooks: Yeah, yes, yes. Snapchat. Yeah. Or they did something stupid and it was put on Snapchat. Yeah. Yeah. Ann: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyways. Yeah, I think I agree with you. I think it's creating avoidance, but at the same time it also is like I get what you're saying with a new playground, but it's a new it's a space now that can bring good, that can bring connection, but it also is just so easy to pick and choose. And as adults, like you were talking about this a little bit, like Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Ann: friendships, making friends, like and I'm gonna equate this, like I'm a pretty social person, so I talk to everybody when I'm out and about. And I do make connections easily. I don't make like my good friends are have always consistently been my good friends, but like I make connections easily. But I'm gonna like relate this to dating and I'm currently taking a breather because everybody's insane. But like Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Ha ha Ann: Dating now is because of social media, because of the dating apps, because of and as an adult, like it's kind of the same as like how do you even make new connections or friends and adults? That's the only place to do it. You you there isn't another option unless somebody's like gonna Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yes. Ann: Unless what like I'm like one of my I'm forty one. One of my old friends is gonna introduce me to someone new. We don't talk to new people. Are you kidding? Like we I don't we don't like anybody. No, I'm just kidding. But maybe not. ⁓ but Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yeah. But even even thinking about that, like if we if we Ann: Like so you have to be engaged in that crazy wild west world that is absolutely insane. And you can. It's this cr it's wild that you can just disconnect at any time. It's not even real. And when I think about cause that's my experience, that's like that's my newest, freshest experience with like making connections on social media or like on whatever app on online platforms, it is so not real. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And you can just shut it off. Ann: Like it is so like, okay, I I talk to you, but like who cares? Who cares? Bye. I mean and it and and there's like no offense taken and there there's absolutely all of the zero all of the communications taken out of it. And then you're also weird if you wanna meet up right away. 'Cause that's weird. And it's like, what are you supposed to do? And I think that so I think that adults struggle with that when you're even trying to make friends 'cause now there's apps out there to just like make friend connections, but they're all a mess. And then that but that's what kids are dealing with too. That's like their norm. Matthew Brooks: ⁓ yeah, and if we like we were bringing up the playground kind of ⁓ like metaphor for like our generation of kids growing up of that is the social setting. Well for adults it's the bar, it's the clubs, it's like those were were the social settings and now it's I'm going to be on a dating profile s online, I'm gonna see your pictures, I'm gonna find you online, see if you have a criminal record, see where you work, you know Ann: Yeah, I'm gonna instantly Google you. Matthew Brooks: I'm gonna instantly Google you and see before I even say hi, right? Or you maybe you have said hi, but that's it. And then and then I may go out to a bar with you. Then I may I may go to a restaurant. I may go to a social setting with you at that point, right? So it's not having these social things and then finding a person. And even going back to the metaphors of the playground or the bar is like when you're going to those, there was A limited amount of people there. Ki k like playground it would have what less than a hundred kids if it was a school playground, right? Ann: I think a hundred? Where are you going? Matthew Brooks: I had a small school. that was yeah. but the bar is the same, it's like a couple hundred people. But now it's like thousands of people, right? 'Cause it's online. It's Ann: No, that's huge. That's so many kids. That's a great Whatever. ⁓ wait, I was ⁓ the pull it's crazy. And so the kids so the adults are dealing with this if you're dating or even trying to make new friendships or connections in a new area or just in general. Adults are dealing with like this ma now you this massive amount to pull from, which is which makes you, I feel like, it kind of encourages avoidance because you're like, ⁓ whatever. ⁓ whatever. Like you're you be as picky as you want, but that's not Always great. And then kids have this too because it is now normal. Like your your pool of friends used to be like your classroom. It's not anymore. Like you you're online in like roadblocks or whatever. Parents are ⁓ creating meetups, which I think is very cool. Like we're making sure everybody's safe and whatever. Creating meetups with kids they've been playing online for like months ⁓ in a different state or area around where they live. And I have Matthew Brooks: No. Yeah. Ann: I have observed through clients that I have that being successful. Like they talked to the parents, they confirmed everybody was like the age, whatever, and they went to meet them, and they're like friends. They do things together. But that's crazy. Like we had that was that happened if we had like a pen pal that was like our grandma's neighbor's friend. So Matthew Brooks: ⁓ yeah. Ha ha Yeah. Or like if you went to summer camp, right? Like a a sleepover camp that was like bug juice, right? Yeah. Yeah. Ann: Yeah. Okay. Yes! Sleepover camps. ⁓ my gosh. ⁓ Matthew Brooks: I there's one part ⁓ that we're around and that is I do this with clients where it's the concentric circles. ⁓ So it's like ⁓ the center circle is ⁓ right? And you have the outer circle and then ⁓ however many circles you want put out. you you brought it up earlier where it was like I can make ⁓ acquaintances very quickly. Ann: ⁓ yeah. Matthew Brooks: Right. I can meet people, I can I can b like say hi, talk to them, everything like that. But I think for you, and this is that gee thanks, you know, Now it's we talked about it's really hard to have and keep relationships and friends. What do I do to keep it? What do I do to make a new friend? How do I identify that? And that's where those concentric circles come in of like, how does this random person in the grocery store or like in a chat room become like into the circle? And each boundary of the circle is Trust, right? There's a there's a bouncer at the door, there's a guard at the gate, whichever you want to use, where it is like you like that person needs to show you that they can be trusted, right? Through their actions, through how they like match your energy, how much they give a shit about like the relationship and everything. So it is like these online friends, if it yeah, you're spending time with them, but it's also like If you are vulnerable, if you're getting frustrated, or if you're having a great time, you know, these different things go, ⁓ okay, this person is like I'm I'm vibing with this person, right? So they might get in that first part where it's like, Yeah, I'm getting to know them and and everything. But what we're talking about too is those inner circle best friends, like ride or die, I'll help them bury the body kind of friend. How do people get from randos in the grocery store to this is my my person, right? How do they do that? How does that happen, Anne? Ann: I don't go to the grocery store anymore. ⁓ so Matthew Brooks: Speaking of online social interactions. Ann: I cannot stand the fact of going I can't do it anymore. It is I tried to the other day. And I was like, what is happening? I spend more money if I go there. Anyway. the whole time I was like, I don't know, go to the grocery store. I do have an answer. Matthew Brooks: Ha ha ha. Ha ha ha. Well adding also, Kroger just bought out Giant Eagle, so there's that. ⁓ Is very upset about it. Ann: No, everybody in Pittsburgh is so mad about it. It's very upsetting. It's like when Heinz Field was changed. And guess what? Everybody, it's not nothing. Whatever. Anyway. We don't like change. We don't like it. You're not allowed to do it. Anyways, ⁓ so how do you make that jump? So, but I have I have a couple things to respond to. Obviously, I'm gonna respond to this about a roundabout way. I Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yeah. Everybody in Pittsburgh always gets upset when there's change. Ann: The circles. Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Ann: The circles all the time with clients. There's a circles program that we used to use in the ⁓ autism school that I worked at. But I am constantly drawing those for all ages. I mean it's really great with kids, but for all ages, I'm constantly drawing those circles to be like it teaches safety, but it also teaches how you're jumping across them, like how you kind of grow. Like here's your inner circle, here's your most trusted people, here's the people that you, you know, blah blah blah are safe with and Matthew Brooks: All the time. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Ann: then you move out learning about acquaintances, whatever. And so how do you get someone in that outer circle in? And Matthew Brooks: Yeah. And or I'm gonna even add to that, how do you put a person that is already in your life in the proper circle? Because I think if we're talking about friends or even family members who are toxic, who are treating you poorly, or you know, you're having not a great relationship, but you are expecting so much more out of them. and they're gonna be good to you and they're gonna be kind and they're in their inner circle and they keep betraying you or they keep hurting you. Like where does that go? Ann: And there's so many Yeah, and it's a great visual and tool to use for setting boundaries but also bringing people in. And so how do you let's like talk first about like how do you bring them in? And I think that that's a skill that people are Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yeah. Ann: losing a little bit or have gotten really out of touch with post-COVID with social media because that's up to you. You have to if you are interested in bringing somebody from an acquaintance into a closer friendship circle, you have to take the initiative to communicate with them. And I talk about ways with clients all the time to do that. And it is a s it is a s it is now a skill that's having to be retaught that I think that in like previous generations were just four. Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Ann: Into knowing how to do it. Not everybody liked it or was good at it, but like you were forced to do that. And so now it's talking about like, okay, well, you really, really enjoy this person that you met in class, but like in college, but this semester is ending, and you've only had communication with them in this class. How do you bridge a gap? Like, this is a real example. And I'm I I'm s I'm always like, Did you ask for their number? And they're like, Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: Okay, well you have to. That's how you have to. And maybe you have to do it through like, hey, do you want to work on this assignment together? Let's exchange numbers. Maybe all of the contact emails are on your whatever, whatever blackboard, whatever thing you use, then you reach out to them. But you have to make the jump. Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Ann: And you have to be vulnerable to be like, do you want and do something that says, do you want to be friends? Do you want to come into a closer circle? And that's a a skill that both of adults, teens, kids are having to relearn a little bit, I think. And people might like I know that this isn't across the board, but it is something that I see in clients in therapy. ⁓ and then I'm gonna add in like the social media pieces, maybe your friends on Instagram or maybe they used to be in your inner circle like in high school, college or something, and now you only communicate through reels on Instagram or something and you see that they had a life event and you want to reach out and people will come in and have this conversation like we used to be so close, whatever, I think we're so close. We like communicate, we like send each other reels. Message them. Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Ann: That's a that's a jump now that people are like, Well, I don't know. And you're like why c wh you can. You are in control of that, but it is this like vulnerability. There's now this kind of like wall that everybody kind of hides behind of like we can still be in contact, but it's just not as close. And that feels more comfortable. And I do think that that kind of creates an avoidance of taking those jumps to bring people closer to an inner circle. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: I do, I think that that's what's been happening. And so the conversations become different around social interactions or maintaining good friendships or creating closer friendships. ⁓ 'cause they're ha you're having to do it through all these different platforms. And then well so that's what I feel like to like bring it in. And then setting boundaries, well that's been an that's an age old, like That appli that I don't I don't know, you can correct me if I'm wrong, but like, ⁓ Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: Think that COVID or social media has shifted that as much because Matthew Brooks: No. Ann: it created space for people that needed it and you they were you're able to like keep them there. But when they're in your inner circle and you're trying to like set like a that's more of a practice that we've been talking about with clients forever. Like just because they're family, just because they're doesn't mean that you have to do that or just because it was comfortable at some point or you know, whatever. ⁓ but moving them out is different. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. I think I think the the Yeah, the complexity with putting them out is if a person feels like they don't have a lot of friends and then they need to eliminate the friends that are toxic, yeah. Then they're like, Well, ⁓ if I get rid of them then I got nobody And I was like, Okay, but like this person is also isolating you in their behavior because they're ⁓ emotionally abusive and Ann: Suck. Matthew Brooks: they will cause problems with, you know, all the other friends and then people are like, no, I'm done. I'm out. I don't, you know. But there's another part of it where it is just like the evolution of I would say in the past ten years, friendships have shifted. ⁓ and not even 'cause of COVID, but other worldly national circumstances where friends and family members start to feel a certain mindset, we'll say. And I've had s like I had probably like twenty sixteen on, a lot of people coming and be like, this person has changed completely from who I knew they were And I can't I can't have them in my life ⁓ with who they are now, but I have a history with them and like we have this this this great friendship but now I I can't align with them. What do I do? Ann: And accepting that and setting those boundaries is really hard and you bring up another ⁓ topic that I think I I navigate so often with people in session, which is loss. And Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Ann: you know, breakups, divorces, friendships falling out. These are really, really significant events for people because I don't care what anybody says, we are programmed Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: for needing humans, other humans, whether those are good or bad relationships. And so loss of a friendship, loss of it's not just the passing of a loved one. It's loss of a loved one when Like you're saying, like belief systems change, people grow and change, grow apart, ⁓ breakups happen to work this is these are big deals and people have difficulty like I hear so often that they kind of downplay it, like, okay, whatever, I didn't need them anyways, or it's not a big deal, it's we grew apart or no, that's a it's a significant loss. And it's something that again Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Ann: I think because of the way that things have shifted and changed, people don't sit with in the same way. Like, ⁓ again, because of this this feeling that there's such a vast amount of people that they can now reach out to and connect with. And maybe I'm talking more about romantic relationships, but it's like, whatever, I'll just go Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Ann: find one of these thousands of other people. But it's like, no no no no, you need like chill. Like, okay, do that, whatever, have your process. But remember that that was still a significant loss. That was still something that you do have to kind of go work through these stages and acknowledge and say this is what wasn't working and and so that you can form and reach out to healthier new people that you can bring inward. ⁓ Matthew Brooks: Mm. Yeah. And that takes work. That's the other part of it. That takes years. Ann: so much work. So much work. And I think that and again, I know that I like dance around my personal experience a lot, but I am like two years post like separation, a year post divorce right now. And I think that I'm just reaching Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: being balanced as far as like seeking out or like well, I'm not seeking out, but like actually being able to be present of like, okay, I'm in a good space to maybe form a new relationships. And it's not to say that I wasn't doing that, but it wasn't I wasn't there yet. And you have to go through the process. You have to acknowledge that that's part of it. You have to acknowledge that like, okay, you have to have some experiences to figure out that no, no, no, you needed time. Matthew Brooks: Mm. Yeah. Ann: And that's hard. That's it's such hard work. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. And ⁓ most of the time when I start to bring that up with clients, they turn to look at me and go, But I don't wanna And I'm like, Fair Ann: Well yeah. In one way or another, they're like, I don't wanna feel it, I don't wanna do it, I don't and I can so relate to that. We can all relate to that in ⁓ different circumstances, but the i you have to be vulnerable and take the step to experience it. And that's kind of our jobs. Like we're talking about friendship today and we've gotten into relationships and whatever, but our job as a therapist, our if we're if we're doing a good therapist job. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: with our people that are presenting to us about loss, about wanting to make new connections, about navigating difficulties, toxic relationships, across the board, the the common denominator is like, Okay, well you have to take steps to address it. You can't just come to therapy and talk about it. You can't and then continue to Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Ann: do the same thing. You have to take steps to be vulnerable. And that is where I'm being met with like, well like the like, well I just blocked them. Okay. You're gonna see them if they're in your school. You're gonna see them if they're at your job. You're gonna ⁓ and you're going to have to deal with the emotional impact anyways. Blocking does not forget someone. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Ann: Or it's like, ⁓ well that didn't that didn't work out, I'm just gonna hop back on ⁓ whatever, which I get, I'll be honest, but it's like, okay, but that person didn't disappear or that experience doesn't change it, and it doesn't mean that you're not like the that's not real. So you still have to sit with it, you still have to talk about, you still have think about what worked and didn't work. And you have to kind of own that. And that's therapy. That's what we're doing with these circles. Like that's what you're talking about showing people a visual or discussing. No, this is how relationships are formed and this is Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Ann: the boundaries that you have to set or these are the actions that you have to take to have it cre be created something or change something different to become closer. And that is hard work. Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I I constantly tell any client who's working on like that relationship attachment, the metaphor I use is relationships are gardens. They're gardens. If you are going to tend to the garden, it you're going to have to dig up the soil, you're gonna have to dig out the rocks, you're gonna have to put boundaries, fences, boards, bricks, whatever, and like work on this on the soil there. You can't just step outside and throw a bunch of seeds into the yard and then be like, Why is this not working? Like this you have to tend to it. You have to cultivate these relationships and put in an effort and time. And even when you are, you don't know if something's going to grow or not. The growing part is out of your control, but you you can tend to it. And if you tend to it too much, it nothing's gonna grow because then it'll be too suffocating, right? So it is like you have to let those seeds that you have planted and taken the time to grow. And sometimes the seeds won't grow, right? Sometimes you won't get vegetables or flowers from from what you've planted. And that just might be the circumstances of whatever was going on there. And that's where therapy, you can look at it, you can reflect it. You can you can see what worked, what didn't work, right? Relationships are gardens. Ann: And sometimes a frickin' chipmunk comes in and eats all of the seeds that you keep planting. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. And those are toxic relationships and we figure out how to put more boundaries to keep the freaking chipmunk out. Ann: Well That's what I was doing this morning. No, I love the spraying peppermint everywhere because I'm trying to not kill the animals. Anyways. ⁓ no no no, I love that. And I love I actually haven't used I don't know why, because it's a perfect like a garden. Matthew Brooks: No, I Yeah. Ann: ⁓ but you have to cultivate things. You have to work on things. That is something and I'm gonna add to that. If something doesn't work out, you then have to tend to your own garden and yourself. And it isn't the first human reaction. Again, I will fully own this. Like whenever you are going through a loss, you do some weird shit for a little bit. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yes. Ann: Like you you make some choices, you're dealing with a lot of emotions, but you have to come back to caring for taking taking time for yourself. You have to cultivate your own garden to then go back out there and do what we are talking about, which is form these new relationships in a way that you're becoming vulnerable, but you're comfortable with that, where you understand where you came from, but you're taking ownership. ⁓ you kind of have to come back to yourself too. So you it's both. You have your Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Ann: own have your relationship guard what you have your own too. and that's something that we're constantly reminding clients. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yeah, and I think I think with that is that creation, destruction, transformation. Like the garden's still going to be the garden, even if you have to pull everything out or you go in there and have a a fit and just destroy everything, you know, or you go full Brittany two thousand seven and shave your head and and you know, go all all all out. That is a transformative thing, right? Ann: We love Brittany. leave her alone. ⁓ don't bring her into this. ⁓ yeah, no. ⁓ agreed. And I think that that is it is Matthew Brooks: Leave Brittany alone. Yeah. Ann: it's so funny that this is bringing up like personal stuff and I'm always open and we'll share and it's it's a it's an experience that again, working with my therapist, but that I also offer to clients, which is like you can say it a million times, but until you get to a point where you're like, ⁓ yeah Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. Ann: That is what I have to do. It does like and that's why it's so in consistency in tending to your own garden, going to therapy, or whatever your source of like support is, is really, really important. And then you they tell you know at the beginning of a process of like trying to make a new friend or loss in a friendship or change, you don't see that. You're like, well, I just want everybody because it's so accessible, it's so easy to be like, I want a quick fix or I want a comfortable fix. But ⁓ doing the work is so Matthew Brooks: ⁓ yeah. Mm-hmm. Ann: Important, and that's our job. That's what we're navigating. That's why we're seeing these w as therapists, we have to talk about and we have to kind of understand how relation forming relationships and friendships has changed due to all of these world circumstances and tech and whatever, so that we can help guide clients back to the basics of you still have to do the work. And Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yeah. Ann: And that's so important. And it's also important to have our own experience with that so we understand it. So yeah. Matthew Brooks: Yeah, no, and I think I mean agreed. Hear here, right? No, I had I I've had clients and have r a recent client who was just like in a session just like threw their hand up and were like, Why is this not so hard? But like why why is this not working? Why is you know, why why now is everything starting to change? I was like, Because you weren't ready yet. Ann: Agreed. Yeah. Time Matthew Brooks: you weren't ready. So if I started pushing you this way, you know, last year, you you wouldn't be ready. Ann: Time is needed. It's necessary. Okay. I'm gonna pull a you. Cause we have to wrap up today for reasons. ⁓ but I'm gonna pull a you, because you always like to end with like questions, and I like one today. What do you look for in a new friend or a friendship? Matthew Brooks: Time is needed. Okay. Okay. Okay. Ooh. That's a good question. I think what I look for in a new friend or new relationship. ⁓ I mean if we boil it down to like Mr. Rogers, it's kindness. Kindness like if I'm seeing a person who is ⁓ empathetic, compassionate, kind, whatever it might be in any way and they they show me that, then I'm like, ⁓ okay, you you're into you're allowed into the next circle kind of a thing. And that and it's funny enough, I don't have a lot of like male friends just because I probably work in a female dominated field. but the male friends I do have are like I'm incredibly loyal to them. And people have said that too of like, if if you earn my trust, like till the day you die, like, I got you. Right. So there's there's a lot of like that kindness in in what I look for and how I want to be treated. Ann: Yeah. Matthew Brooks: Right. And that's a pillar and that's what I try to like give advice to other people is figure out what your pillars are of how you want to be treated and how you want to have a relationship and then build from there. Look for those people that you want to cultivate in your garden of, you know, The the if you want a funny person, like if it's all just like you want to be laughing and your face hurting and everything like that, like you can cultivate that. If you want those like quiet moments, just reading a book with the other person in the room, and then you're like reviewing the book or talking about something, and it's just intimate conversation, do that, right? But it it's very much of like how you want to be treated, and one of mine is kindness. Ann: Yeah. Kindness is my first one too. That's what jumps into my head initially. I'm gonna a and I agree with you, like the you kinda touched on loyalty and you touched on like a but I'm gonna add my I think I mean this isn't up with this isn't top kindness, but this is so important. You kinda have to be weird. Matthew Brooks: Mm-hmm. ⁓ yes. Yeah. It's gotta be a little bit of weird. Ann: For me, you gotta have a little bit of weird man. You gotta have a little bit of like Worky, you gotta have that per like a personal for me. So you you're so funny because you touched on something and I immediately was like, Well, that's a you're not a Scorpio, but like that's such my Scorpio thing. Of like, if you it it it takes a lot to get let into the middle, like the center circle. That's a big but if you're in, man, life. Like I got you, doesn't matter what happened, we are good. Solid. ⁓ but Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Life. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You gotta be weird. Ann: But you gotta be a little weird. You gotta have a little bit of like a quirk person 'cause y 'cause for me personally, you're not gonna get me on that level unless you are. Matthew Brooks: Good. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And quite frankly, it made me think of like how did we become friends? Like what was that turning point where it was just like and I the first thing I thought of was day one going on the unit with you. And I'm like, ⁓ this like she's gonna be fun. She's weird. Like just walking onto the unit and like crazy shit was happening and it was just like, ⁓ because I already spent it with, you know, Dave. And I like saw it and Dave Dave's Dave, you know. but then I went on it with you and it was a completely different thing. And I was just like, I really like hanging out with her Ann: Yeah. Wonderful. This is fun. We s speak the same language. Yeah, you have to have some weird. You have to underst you have to have some quirk. You have to ⁓ for me a friendship quality that I just really, really value in others is and I think when I say weird, what I mean is authenticity. Like I can't I I cannot and I'm being very honest here, I can't stand Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Ann: the character traits of like ⁓ conforming or what am i I just can't stand inauthentic people. Like when you're sitting there and you're like, okay, can you just like get to what you really want to say or can you just be your real like that surface level stuff just drives me and like I've I melt into the ground Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Ha ha ha. Ann: And as therapists, we're so in tune to that, right? Like we're listening for it every day, and you're like, okay, well, that was bullshit. Tell me what's really happening. I just need deep connection weirdness. I need it. I cannot do I cannot do the surface. ⁓ and now I can and acquaintances and I love all people and I love making new connections, but in order to form a friend. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Ann: I wanna know what's going on. I need to be able to have deep conversations with you, and we also need to be weird. That's Matthew Brooks: I always equate that to this is very millennial coded, but any person who has the same vibe as Jack from the movie Hook, when Hook is freaking out in the clock shop and Jack is just laughing as Hook is like losing his mind. I'm like, that's me. If you're like that, we're gonna be friends. Yeah. Ann: So I have just made the Hook reference. I just made this yesterday because do you remember the scene? ⁓ my god, Hook is such a good movie. But I bet you if we went back and watched it, we would be like, what's going on? I don't think so though. I think it's I don't think so. So I'm gonna live in that. Do you remember the scene where they're all like imagining the food? Like they don't have any food, but they imagine it, and then they have like the big food fight. My nephew was here yesterday and we were talking about that. And he's never seen it because Matthew Brooks: This is problematic. Yeah, of course. Food fight. Yeah. Ann: He's 15. And I was like, ⁓ my gosh, I love that scene so much. And I, if somebody can't sit with me, like I do that stuff with my kids all the time because I'm kind of a giant child. And if somebody can't sit with me and experience and be like, you wanna kick this up a notch? Like, I I don't know if I can hang with you. On a deep level. I don't know if we can be like if you're not ready for an adventure of my imagination, we probably aren't gonna gel. But I just love that feel like I love people that get that. And that's why going back to why therapists connect with therapists. We're so used to those deep conversations that it's second nature. Like we need that. And then that's why art therapists connect with art therapists, because you're like, do you understand the quirky weird? Because Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. If you can sit at the Lost Boys table, like you're invited. Like that's what it is. Ann: I need you to We're good. So and it's like what you and I were talking about and texting last night. Like you felt an urge of creativity where you were working on the images for the new book and ⁓ we shared some of them on social media on the Wonderworks press thing. So if you guys want to check it out, we shared one thing about like a little sneak peek of Georgie. sweater and you were like I'm doing it tonight and I was like so funny because I am painting a mural in my kitchen r just like felt the urge Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yeah. Ann: ran with it and we were w we were doing two different things but like vibing over like okay yeah and I love this is a this is a sign this is a perfect example of a friend and a true friendship because you were wanting me to look at these images that you were creating for our project and I was like, dude, can't I'm painting a mural and you were like love that you need to do that right now. And that and that and and I was like you're right. I'll address this later. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yeah. Ann: And that is the balance of us both tending to our own gardens, connecting, and completely being like, yep, we get it, do your thing. Because there's an understanding. And that's the core of like what I look for in a friendship. So Matt, we're friends. Matthew Brooks: We're friends. And you know how I know we're friends? Because the reason I followed up with you at like 11 o'clock last night was I didn't see a post. And I so here's what I did. I created a sketch of the image earlier in the day, and then I put it on a shared file on like a G drive. And I sent it, I shared the file with you. And then I go, she may not know how to get that. So I'm going to just download the picture and send it to you via text as like a lower form of the thing. And then once I like inked it and colored it and worked on it a little bit more, like later in the day that night, I sent it to you again in a in a shared thing with the words. And I was like, she may not get that. So I'm gonna send it to you again via text. And then I didn't see it like on social media. So I was like. Ann: And and friendly. Matthew Brooks: Did she not get the picture? So it wasn't even like, hey, I'm gonna bother you, annoy you. It's like, hey, did you not complete the technology illiterate task? Yeah. Yeah. Ann: Yeah. You were like, I know what you're capable of and what you're not. And so I'm preparing for that. And that didn't work, which doesn't make sense. So you something else must be happening. So I'm gonna so I'm gonna follow up. And then you did, and I was like, s correct, something else is happening. I am it's right next to me. I am painting this mural in my kitchen. And you were like, makes total sense. I was spot on with what I was thinking, and you go make that mural because you need to, we'll check in later. And then when I was Matthew Brooks: Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Ann: laying on my couch 'cause I painted for too long. I was like, ⁓ I'll upload it now. Matthew Brooks: Yeah. I was like, I know she's gonna upload it and I've set up like backup plans on how she can see these pictures. Yeah. Yeah. Friendship. Yeah. Okay. Ann: Yeah. You were spot on. Best best friendship ever. We we had that all figured out. Okay. Well, everybody go make a connection today. Say hi. Say hi to your neighbor. Aww. Okay, bye. Matthew Brooks: Go make more friends. Yeah. Yeah. All right, bye.