speaker-0: Hello and welcome to Agency, a conversation about social change with the people who make it. We come to you from the lands of the Kira Worong and Paramount people. I'm your host, Emily Reeves. Today's guest is Cara Oliver, a passionate communicator and environmentalist who puts connection at the very heart of her work and supports others to do the same. We explore why effective communication starts with meeting people where they're at. and Cara shares a wonderful new project to protect the stunning starling memorations in her home city of Brighton in the UK, bringing people closer to nature through the wonder on their own doorstep. Hi Cara, thanks so much for joining me today. It's a real pleasure to be speaking with you.

speaker-1: So excited to be talking to you and it's so lovely to be catching up again.

speaker-0: Today we're talking about communications. And when it comes to creating change, it really is all about communication. The right audience, the right message, the right messenger, and the right time. In some organizations, communications can almost be an afterthought, but really it's absolutely central to achieving impact. What do you see as the role of good communications and what opportunities are lost if we miss the mark?

speaker-1: going about this a lot. So feel free to go Kara, stop, because it is a bit of a perpet subject. And I think one of the things I like to just mention is the fact that one of the heroes, David Attenborough, he said that the big challenge that we've got related is a communication one. For all of the issues we've got around nature, and obviously it applies to social issues as well, that communication is our challenge. I think the main thing is we need to start with where people are. So We are entrenched in the communication issues that we have if we're working for a social organization or within a business that's trying to do good. We're in that world. We're not starting where the audience are in their daily lives. They've already got their issues, they've got their struggles, their goals, their joys. And I think it's going back to that really old marketing thing of knowing who your audience really is before you start reeling out those messages. Who are they? Don't tell them what to care about. They already know what they care about. They care about their family. They care about health. They care about work. So relate to that is what I think it needs to be done. And I think it's also remembering that in B2B. So we can think about that in B2C, but when we could be talking to business to business, we forget that there's people behind the business. So I always think of it as P2P, people to people. because we're talking to them. They're the same people with their own worries and they will hook into your idea, whether they've got their business work head on or not. They'll identify it more if you can identify with them as people. I think being understood, that beats being clever all the time. So, you know, drop that jargon. You know, we're seeing a backlash against words like with the sustainability, these sort of greenwashing words, you know, keep the issues small. keep them relevant to their day to day. And existential crisis is not on my today to day issue. I don't think it's on anyone's and as much as you might be trying to work on bigger issues, you know, you've got to start with relating it to their day to day. I think those are the key things. That's where we miss the mark. One of the other things and I think that goes back to our old days working together is hope over fear. You know, give them that relatable next step. You know, let's show them a way out in a step by step basis. So not trying to make them make such a huge leak, which when the crises that everyone's going through and they have different crises that they can see, actually, I can't manage that. I can't, yeah, I can do that. So I think those are sort of some of the main things that I think about when I'm sort of trying to reach the right people. main thing, know who they are, get down to that level.

speaker-0: And I love this notion of digging deep into our audiences because, of course, yes, as a communicator, the your first rule really is know your audience. And as you were talking, I was reminded of an interview I heard, and it was with a chap who led the the campaign for marriage equality in Ireland and then came to Australia and was very instrumental in the campaign here for marriage equality. And I heard him interviewed. on the radio and he was talking about how we think about those people that disagree with us. And he said we often fall into the trap of thinking that they're either really stupid because why wouldn't you agree? The meet that's the figures are in front of you, the data's in front of you. You're either stupid because you don't understand it, or if you understand it Then you must be evil. And he talked about these two categories and and I've reflected and I thought about particularly earlier in my career as a campaigner. That's kind of what I thought about people who would defend animal cruelty in that case. And so I really took a lot from that interview with him and have reflected on that in my practice. But it's about well, what motivates them? What's their world? What's their experience, etc.? And when you understand that and of course what he was saying is is like what you're saying is talk to people, take the time to understand them.

speaker-1: Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's that conversation stance because, you know, we've all had those lovely profiles that we've done and put them on our desks and a piece of paper and that person is this, they're like that and this is where they go and my God, it's just so lifeless. And if you can just try and get a few conversations, it's difficult, but quite often you find that they're in your

speaker-0: Yeah.

speaker-1: world anyway. There's going to be someone that falls closely to that, that you could probably reach out to. and to just dig deeper. I think when we're talking about digging deeper, I sort of think the past and their almost intergenerational influences need to be understood as well, because we can look at what we are as now, but underneath, or we've all been influenced by, you know, family, parents and what their views are. And even if you're striving to not take on their views. you know, he does have this subliminal influence on you. So I do think, you know, it's not always possible to say like, what do your mum and dad care about? You know, there's things that we want to not think that we've been taught in the past, but it's in there. So it's really important to sort of like take it a little bit deeper still than that individual. If you can go a little bit deeper than that.

speaker-0: Absolutely. And we're actually seeing a really clear case of that playing out in Australia at the moment. And it's around the crisis that we are facing in Australia, which is violence against women, women being murdered at an unbelievable rate in Australia, the tip of the iceberg of so much violence and control. This gender based control gender based violence. Who are doing amazing things to create change, to increase gender equality, to grow respect in communities, create safe communities. And it's wonderful work. In the last few weeks, I've been following a few men that are speaking out on this. And of course, when it comes to algorithms, once you follow one, others are fed to you. And what I'm hearing in what they're saying. Is is boys like this absolutely need to step up and and stand against this violence. Men have got a role to play, which is fantastic to hear. But on top of that, there are a couple of younger men, sort of in their twenties and thirties, sort of speaking about exactly what you said. What did they grow up with? And talking about the parallels between the narrative that they had around women that leads to harm towards women, which is lack of respect, be a tough man, have control, have dominance. is also harming them. And how can they be open with their feelings and build trusting relationships and express themselves in their fullest expression of themselves? It's all these things that are your upbringing, your schooling, and while you can't necessarily take sort of the family history and delve in, I think even being cognizant of and aware of the fact that there is so much depth to to people in those experiences that are shaping how they're even interacting with your message or even if they're noticing it. in the first place. and I guess in some ways there's the converted and then there are the people who are not even in the room. And I think you're you've just returned or not long ago were at a a workshop that was really focused on how do we get the right people in the room to to create change. And I'm really interested in the key takeaways and insights you have from that that experience.

speaker-1: Yeah, absolutely. Yes, I recently attended, I was invited to a workshop in London where we gathered some various minds together to tackle the issue that we've got. So we've got a call to action at the moment. There's an organization called National Emergency Griefing. And the call is to try and get, they've got a great film about climate change and climate issues, and they want a public broadcast of this. Bit like we got in COVID. We actually, where the government is coming out and going there, look guys, we've got a proper issue here. We all need to be on board and sort of that COVID level action on sort of climate and biodiversity. They're focusing, I think more on the climate side, but obviously the biodiversity is linked in there. So the meeting was to go, how can we get the right people in the room? Because you and I know how many times have you been to an event and you look around and you're like, everybody looks like me. They sound like me. They're from similar backgrounds. And it's great. It's kind of like, you've got your people in the room, but those are often the converted, you know, we are literally talking to each other and telling each other what to do and be like, yeah, we're there. We're on it. So it's about getting, reaching those people that we need to create greater awareness or in people that are able to change, make greater change in communities where you won't be able to, because you're not the right voice. So I just, I actually just put a post out on LinkedIn where I've tried to. pull up the points that I felt were pertinent on this issue of At Game and Right People in Room, but I think there's three areas. Firstly, before. So before you do the event, don't assume, again, it's target audience. Find out who you need to act. What are their stresses? What are their goals? What are their joys? Keep on that bit. know, don't go down the worry route too much. You know, they need a bit of luck. What would make them come? Then think about the messenger. So if you're not the right person, if you're not from that, then the event coming from someone and being marketed from someone who isn't them, who isn't in their sphere of influence, is not going to land as well. So find a messenger that actually believes in what you do and you can translate it. They send the invite, but also if it's a wider event, give that very person who's going to try and get to lead the communications. Give them a slot straight away on what they want to talk about within the community because they're connected to the community. They'll have something that really lands with them. And then your issue will no doubt lead from their issues. So it's like just tears quite often. So let it blend through. So the people come away with something that they, from someone they're connected to, they come away with some clear takeaways. Other things remove the barriers. So. Again, know what they've got. Have they got childcare issues? Are you hosting it in a place that's completely unfamiliar to them? So put it in schools, put it in sports centers, put it in churches, put it in wherever they go and try and put sweet in different places. And then always your hook. So don't hook them. Try and hook on that big issue. So the climate crisis, biodiversity loss is not going to be a hook to get someone who's dealing with. day-to-day issues. So how to cut your heating bill this winter? Might. So try and think of something that is actually related to your issue. Absolutely. And there's no sort of trying to clodwink people into the room. But again, if we're going to get our messages through, we need to relate it as a related to their lives. So lead it with someone they know, they, you know, they trust, make sure you deliver that useful bit first and also give them a reason to stay to the end. So What was shared at the event was that quite often the people who stay to the end and do a bit of the listening and the chat are often the people that take greater action. Give them some clear actions that they could do, bite-sized clear actions. So generally those are the sort of things that I'm thinking about when it comes to planning an event. But for me the key one, if I could say the key one, is that messenger and that hook. Even if you know everything about it, if you're the wrong person to speak to them about it, you know, it's not gonna land.

speaker-0: And it's interesting, as you were talking there, those insights and and guidance around how you think about and plan for an event to get the people in the room, they work perfectly on that broader scale of engaging people with an issue, I think. You know, so when you think about how do we connect people with an issue that we care about, those principles that you just talked through, they all apply. It's it's it's finding the thing that that is true to the issue, that actually resonates with the person, that speaks to what their pain point is or what their main concern is, what they're struggling with on a day-to-day basis, having the right spokesperson, et cetera. So I think yeah, I think it it works both whether it's an event you're hosting or or the engagement in the issue more broadly. And I know that when we work together at World Animal Protection I recall when we wanted to speak with people about sort of the bigger issues like intensive farming, I know it sometimes that was more difficult because it it was a bit hard for people to connect with that. It was too big behind closed doors, the scale is massive. And I know that what the fundraisers and communicators, including you, did such a wonderful job with was establishing that connection through an animal and and often the eyes of the animal, that's how you connect with another soul, right? And I found that really interesting that, and I see it all the time now, of course, that as humans, sometimes the big gnarly issues are too big a gnarly for us to fathom. But we can enter into that through the the doorway of a single animal or something that feels more manageable. You know, it it makes it more Proximal can can bring an issue closer, make it more tangible and more relevant. So I'm curious, just building on that, because you're talking with people about the the really big issues, right? Big, complex issues that take very intelligent responses. What are you finding works in terms of helping people to hook into that, to to find their doorway, their entry point?

speaker-1: You know, it does come back to the same points, to be honest, even whatever issues you're landing on, unless you're talking from a big NGO to a smaller NGO. If you're talking to people, it does come back to money, health, family, jobs. And I think those are the things that are on the radar of everybody. So I think. That's where you have to come back to and the things they care about. you know, what do they care about? You know, they care about mental health. They care about their pets. So it's what do they connect with? And I think that's what I find lends whichever level, unless it's the very tier of we're trying to get an organization to organizations to work together. think where it gets down to the sort of more people level, it always boils down to that. leading with their benefits first, making sure your goal is the backstory. I think quite often we see on websites and comms that go out, our goal is to, okay, that is great, but you've made it about you by saying our goal straight away. You you've taken it away from then. And even if your goal was aligned to what their goal is, you know, try and make it more about them. and steer away from things like that. think also, no, we talked about, you said exactly the thing, no enemies. Life is imperfect. We are imperfect species. Don't expect people to go from nought to a hundred, you know, take them along the journey, let them take other people with it. I know there's a wide awareness of how quickly we need to move on some issues. And yes, that is very real. But that's, you know, we've got to realize that small things do add up. It's really interesting. So when we're looking at restoring nature, you know, is there pockets of land and there's, you know, maybe you want to sort of re-wild a massive area. And if you thought about it as pockets of it. So if there are pockets of land that got given off and they hooked them together, then there you've got your big goal, but you have to start with one.

speaker-0: two.

speaker-1: and then interconnect those. that, you know, there's, there's ways of doing that. And just remembering if it doesn't fit their life, it's not going to fit onto their to-do list. They might believe you, they might be a hundred percent with you, but if it doesn't fit their life and what they're capable of adding to their lives, it's not going to be on their to-do list. They won't act. So keep the actions small, easy. and not insurmountable.

speaker-0: Yeah, and we and we know people's to do lists are long, aren't they? I mean, we we're all short on time. So it makes perfect sense. And and back to that word of hope that you mentioned, we all want to feel that the action we take, even if it's a small one, because that's all we've got time for, that that it does make a difference. That we are contributing even something small, but contributing to something bigger and actually believing that I can make a difference. And I think that word Hope is so critical there. Hope and and impact. And I want to pivot a little bit. When we spoke just recently, you mentioned to me a project which I found really interesting, but I only know it briefly. So I'd love to understand a little more. I think the title is Starling City, if that's right. I'd love to hear sort of more about that project. And it seems to me like this could be a really beautiful project for creating a pathway. to connect people more deeply, more broadly with nature.

speaker-1: Absolutely. Yes. So it's Starling City, right? Starling City in Brighton. It started only at the end of last year, so December. So a group of local residents, we sort of gathered together with some NGOs, smaller NGOs locally to recognize that we have these beautiful starling murmurations over the sea. Brighton's quite well known for it. And the local residents love it. people who come to see it, photographers, you know, it's not unique, you there are across the country, but it's something that we really highly value. And it's that really important. It's an immediate connection to nature, where the people think about them connecting to nature and the health benefits of it and standing and stopping and not spending, it's free, it's accessible to everybody to have. And we thought what a beautiful thing to hook on. And hooking onto it as well, because the fact that our starlings are a listed species in terms of red listed, so in terms of scarcity. When you look back, there used to be flocks of around a hundred thousand, we're about 15,000 now, which actually is a bit of an increase from recent years, but we're aware that it is something that's precious and you know, we want to build it and retain it for people. So there's, there is that goal. A really interesting thing about it as well is the fact that the memorations we have are our local flock. So they're not the migrating starlings. Now they're coming soon and actually we're seeing this building on social media and things like that. People are actually going, the starlings are coming back and the people are looking forward to seeing it on the sea front. That's the excitement captured about it. But what we want to do is to grow the flock big enough so that they attract the migrating ones. So we want to gather and grow this. the local flock so that we can actually get into a stronger spectacle, but more that it will last and it will be there for people for the future. We're an approved applicant as a wildlife heritage area. And that's where, if we get successful, it's some areas where people are recognized to be important to local residents, that they cherish it as part of their local heritage and culture. And it's very much focused on the importance to the people that are living there as well. that, and it helps give us sort of a level of recognition and an unofficial level of help for protection. And that level, the wildlife heritage area. So we get the murmurations on the seafront, which you see, but in the summer here, the starlings are not there. They're back on the downs. We've got the south downs behind us. There's a landscape behind us where they go to have their kids and You know, it's like when you have kids, you're busy with the kids. can't do murmurations if you're busy rearing young. So we want to protect the areas where they go to breed, feed, and raise their children. And then in the next month, we're actually seeing them starting at Brighton Marina right now. in the next month, we'll start to see them over, our piers. And we've got so many great things planned in terms of immediate actions, small bite size, nest boxes, signage. talks and greater awareness, trying to reach people within the city that haven't actually seen them. So the idea is that this is free for everyone. So perhaps we could do some more with schools and education in that way, that, know, bring people along as many people as possible to enjoy these memorations whilst doing species protection, nature protection, protecting pastures that, you know, places where they go. It's a super interesting project because it's accessible and the UK is a majorly wildlife depleted country. So we sort of think of the green pastures and the green England. yeah, there's a lot of fields and a lot of fields with not a lot in them.

speaker-0: Exactly, exactly. It's a hydros that where all the life is, right? It's not not in the field. Yeah,

speaker-1: and drills are so important.

speaker-0: a hundred percent. I'd love to have you back again a little bit further down the track once the project's been running longer to actually hear how it's going, what's happening, how people are are getting involved. But to me it's just such a perfect example of a very clever, easy way for people to get involved through these beautiful birds and the beautiful

speaker-1: memories.

speaker-0: in their own area. But through that, then as you say, to get involved in conservation actions to become a little more aware. I think particularly when we're talking about migratory species of of birds, you know, we're we're linking up to other places around the country, other places around the world. So I think, look, i if if the project simply is people stepping up to protect these birds in their area, fabulous. If it also grows an awareness of environmental protection more broadly, amazing. Karen, that's all we've got time for today. I feel like there was lots more that we could unpack, but that's fabulous. Thank you so much for sharing your insights. This work is so very important. And on the one hand, communicating is simple. On the other hand, to do it really well, take such care, consideration and skill. And I Finn, I'm so grateful to you for sharing all of that with me and us today. Thank you.

speaker-1: You're very welcome. I've been thrilled to talk to you again, Emily. I always loved our time working together and talking and hopefully I haven't gone on too much and you can tell how passionate I am about communication. I love

speaker-0: Love it. Not at all. It's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you.

speaker-1: Thank you.

speaker-0: Thanks for joining us. Agency is produced by Agency International, an impact-driven advocacy communication and campaigning organization that equips change makers to achieve their goals. To find out more, visit AgencyInternational.com.au. Thanks to Adam Weiss at Relativistic Media for our editing and post-production. And thanks to our listeners for joining us.