Dale Johnson: You're listening to Truth and Love, a podcast of ACBC. I want to make sure that all of you are aware of our journal of biblical soul care. We recently released our spring 2026 edition, which is available for everyone. There's no subscription needed, and you can have access to our new journal. This is a special resource that includes critical, in-depth articles on issues in biblical counseling. The latest edition includes articles on marital reconciliation, psychotropic medication. Counseling toward commitment on this edition of Truth and Love. I'm Dale Johnson and you're listening to Truth and Love, a podcast of the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors, where we seek to provide biblical solutions to the problems that people face. This week on the podcast, I'm delighted to have with me Dr. Keith Evans. He's associate professor of Christian Counseling at the Reformed Theological Seminary in Charlotte, North Carolina. He also serves as one of our board members for ACBC. He's married to Melissa and they have four daughters. Elec eclecticism in counseling and factors that lead to integration. So if you're someone who wants to grow in your discernment, in your understanding of theology and methodology and counseling, this journal will be a great help to you. Go check out our journal of biblical soul care at biblical counseling.com forward slash JBSC. And as always, you can find out more about this resource and many others at biblicalcounseling.com. He earned his PhD in biblical counseling at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky. ⁓ Keith, it's so great to have you as always on the podcast today. I'm looking forward to this conversation.

Keith Evans: Thank you so much, Dale. Great to be here.

Dale Johnson: Now we're talking about this concept of commitment. And I don't know about you and the listeners, but sometimes that is a difficult hurdle to get over, is ⁓ the folks come in, they're hurting, they're struggling, they want that pressure to go away. ⁓ but then as you get into asking them to obey some of the things that the Lord commands or committing to certain things to to see some change happen as the Bible prescribes, maybe you start feeling some resistance and there's always questions Man, how do we get them to to join in, to to get on board with some of this commitment? So I I want you to help us to walk through some of that. So we're gonna be talking through the book of ⁓ Philemon just a little bit to help us to think through this, Keith. And so first I wanna start with with this question. How does Paul's approach in Philemon model a way of counseling someone toward gospel obedience without what some may perceive as being manipulation or undue pressure or things like that?

Keith Evans: Yeah, absolutely. So before I I really answer the specific question, if I could just briefly set up the book to to refresh listeners' memories about what's going on. So Onesimus was ⁓ a slave in the ⁓ Colossian house of Philemon. He runs away, he goes to Rome, gets converted under the Apostle Paul's ministry, and now he's being sent back to Colossae, the the church in Colossians, and he's carrying the letter in hand that we read here in the book of Philemon. And the Apostle Paul is appealing to this wealthy landowner, Philemon, and basically saying, Would you be willing to forgive? Give this debt that Onesimus has racked up by not continuing to serve, you know, as as an indentured servant, not filling his responsibility, and actually, you know, defrauding Philemon in this process. Like, and so here's here's the question, right? Basically, would you be willing to forgive this one who defrauded you and receive him as a brother? This it's a pretty big ask in the first century context, right? So, what the Apostle Paul does. Is he appeals not as an apostle who's commanding? You know, the the letter doesn't start out Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus. I command you, Philemon, in the name of Jesus. ⁓ instead, Paul, a prisoner for Christ Jesus, Timothy our brother to Philemon, our beloved fellow worker. He's he's reasoning with him. He's he's coming alongside of him. He's he's saying, Brother, basically, you know, he's going to get to his ask, but it's going to be a lot further down in the letter. would you would you consider this? As a fellow brother in Christ. And I think just to set that up is beautiful and is actually what we're primarily doing in the biblical counseling process. We're coming alongside people, we're reasoning with them as brothers and sisters in Christ. Like, brother, would you consider what Christ has for you? And ⁓ that you would walk in this way, not because, like, I'm telling you, not because I'm your pastor and you just have to do it. ⁓ but because this is good, this is right, this is true, and ⁓ that you would be able to see it before the face of the Lord Jesus and willingly walk in those ways. So so Paul is appealing to him as not just a brother, but one who's in the gospel, one who is voluntarily obeying the commands of Christ, one who's indwelled by the Holy Spirit, and wants to walk in participation with the very things of the Spirit. So Paul is looking for transformation. Not just like doing the right thing, not just like obedience, not just like behavior change, right? And and isn't that the aim and goal of biblical counseling?

Dale Johnson: Yeah, absolutely. Keith, let me pause for a second because there are a couple of things that you're doing here that I really appreciate. ⁓ first of all, textually what you're giving to us as a model, watching Paul do something similar as we would do, making an appeal in the counseling room, I think is stellar and really is the primary point. But you're teaching us even how to go from the text of scripture to methodology and counseling. You're you're teaching us how to how to see what the scripture is describing, ⁓ and then that that's a useful way to to adopt something methodologically even in a counseling room. And and this practice of appeal versus, you know, ⁓ compulsion. And and certainly there are times where ⁓ we would be we would be compelling others to obey the things that the Lord has commanded, no question about that. But but i it is proper and right at times to make an appeal ⁓ to a person, come alongside them as a brother. Now, as we think through this, we we're definitely wanting to avoid several things And so I wanna put it in a in a question like this. How can biblical counselors really learn to to cultivate what what we would see and what you've described even as a sincere ⁓ affirmation from Paul in the way that he ⁓ uses this engagement ⁓ without some sort of flattery or manipulation or strong arming? ⁓ how can we go about doing that as counselors?

Keith Evans: Yeah, absolutely. And if if we were to, you know, have time with our listeners to just read through the entire book of Philemon, there there's two ways we can hear the things that Paul is saying. We can hear it kind of as an underhanded, just buttering Philemon up to do the right thing. But that that would actually undermine the truthfulness of scripture. That that would undermine the veracity of scripture, that Paul is trying to do something that that isn't truthful and isn't transparent, or we can read the things that he says as honest and sincere. Like like just listen for a moment. Let me just give you a a short example. He says in verses four and shortly following, I thank my God always when I remember you in my prayers, because I hear of your love and the faith that you have toward the Lord Jesus and for all the saints, and I pray that the sharing of your faith may become effective for the full knowledge of every good thing that is in us for the sake of Christ. And then he says, I've derived much joy and comfort from your love, my brother, because the hearts of the saints have been refreshed through you. You know, if if that were underhanded, if that were just flattery, that's the word you used a moment ago, Dale. If that were if that were just flattery, that would be inappropriate. But this is true and sincere. He he sees these things in Philemon. He's heard of his reputation. ⁓ you know, the Paul the Apostle Paul was used in the conversion of Philemon and his household. As it says later in the letter. But he's speaking to true affirmations that he sees, the work of the spirit in Philemon's life. And he's pointing to that and saying, I know your character, brother. And and that type of practicing affirmation, like biblical affirmation, I also think is crucial in the counseling room because we want to fan into flame those good works of the Lord and and to spur them onward. What what I already see in you. Just keep walking in those things. Keep keep pursuing these things. ⁓ and that's what I see the Apostle Paul doing here. ⁓ he's giving ⁓ not generic, ⁓ you're just a great guy, but specific, here's how I see the spirit is at work in you, and the types of gospel works that you're engaged in, refreshing the hearts of the saints. And and so I think that's another beautiful way that we can come alongside of people and point them to to greater faithfulness and and cultivation of this obedience as we've been talking.

Dale Johnson: Yeah, I think that's so helpful. You know, ⁓ you mentioned that that Paul was an apostle and and I think that's really important even for us here. And there are times when he pulls rank and says, you know, listen, ⁓ I'm an apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ. I'm thinking specifically of Galatians or First Corinthians or even Second Corinthians ten when he's trying to correct them of some misunderstanding that they have. And and he's compelling people by ⁓ by his status as an apostle of the Lord Jesus and he's commanding them or compelling them to change directions or to correct this attitude or correct this way. This is not the way you learn Christ. There are times in which he he does that. Interestingly in this passage, ⁓ which I think comports to to a lot of our appeals in biblical counseling, that's not what he does here. He he's actually refusing to pull that apostolic rank and he's seeing the good in Philemon and and, you know, requesting or appealing to him. in this way. Talk about how significant that might be for us in the practice of biblical counseling.

Keith Evans: Absolutely. Just to connect it to the text here a little bit in verse eight, he says, Though I am bold enough in Christ to command you to do what is required, yet for love's sake I prefer to appeal to you. And I appeal to my ⁓ appeal to you for my child Onesimus. It we never want to engage in church discipline if we don't have to, right? Like we we don't desire that. It's not like, ⁓ yay, we get to engage in church discipline. Right, like that that's an extreme situation that now Christ has entrusted to our care and it is a means of reclaiming people. ⁓ you know, if things get to that point. But what we would far prefer to do is what the apostle Paul is doing here. I I would never want to get to that extreme. I would far rather ⁓ get to the appeal for love's sake. Would you be willing to do what is right? So as you were saying, Dale, absolutely, there there are times where, you know, thus saith the Lord, that we do. We can rightly and and in Christ say, This is what is required of you. And that can even be, you know, at at the church level, the formal level. And again, that those are gifts that Christ has entrusted to his church. ⁓ in the right situation and in the right circumstances. Before we would ever get there though, ⁓ what what we see the Apostle Paul doing here is seeking to persuade unto obedience as opposed to merely pulling rank. And and that's another thing that I think we have to be careful of in biblical counseling. It's not like the the work of biblical counseling is coming alongside of and then all of a sudden when it gets bad enough, it then like switches and becomes adversarial. That we then have to appeal to church discipline or something, it it ought not really ever be adversarial, but always alongside of, even if there are increasing interventions that we would have to appeal to lawful church authority. And I see that that that's what the apostle Paul is doing here, pleading, not coordin coercive.

Dale Johnson: Yeah, so I want to go a little bit further in that because the occasion of this book, as you you referred to a second ago, was Paul's writing on behalf of Onesimus and he's appealing to Philemon to accept this brother. And he's doing it in in several different ways. and he's encouraging Philemon based on some of the things that he's witnessed in this brother's life, ⁓ and appealing to him. And I want you to talk about the difference. from this what Paul could be doing. He could be compelling Philemon. He could be using this rank. ⁓ he could be trying to coerce obedience in some way. But that's not what he's doing here. ⁓ the difference between what is doing, versus ⁓ compelling or coercing.

Keith Evans: Yeah, so in the first century context that Philemon finds himself in, it would be perfectly within his right to say, No, Paul, this man has defrauded me of a significant debt. He's gonna be thrown into debtors prison until he can pay the last cent. And he won't be able to do so. I mean it would basically be ⁓ he ⁓ costing his life, his his life is forfeit. ⁓ here's how Paul appeals to his brother Philemon. He says in verse twelve. I'm sending him back to you, sending my very heart. Again, this isn't just like mere flattery or something like that. He has come to love deeply, Onesimus. And this is a converted brother. And he says, I would have been glad to keep him here with me in order that he might serve me on your behalf during my imprisonment for the gospel, but I preferred to do nothing without your consent, in order that your goodness might not be by compulsion, but of your own accord. He's saying, look, this man got converted. He's now a Colossian who is a brother in Christ. He is my very heart, my very child in the faith. I'm sending him back to you. I would love to have kept him here at Rome. I mean, he's been so useful to me. And there's a fun play on words, of course, in in the ⁓ original language in the Greek that onissimus means useful, and he's become useless, and now he's being sent back useful. I love like, you know, just kind of the humor even in the letter. That we see. But he's saying, look, this guy is useful to me. I would have loved to keep him here in Rome, but I'm not gonna do that. Because I don't want this just to be by duty, Philemon. I want you to do what what you know to be good and right. And he's appealing again. Do you see him as a brother? Do you see him as one to be, you know, his debt to be forgiven? Because of the great forgiveness that you've received in Christ, he's essentially saying, Philemon. Please don't be the unforgiving servant that Christ taught about in Matthew eighteen, but instead would you be one who forgives out of the great debt that you yourself have been forgiven?

Dale Johnson: Yeah, that's so helpful. You know, I I I think about this situation, maybe last question, and I I I even reflect back on ⁓ pastoral ministry and and my time ⁓ serving in pastoral roles and ⁓ it's very interesting 'cause there are some very hard situations that we have to address at times. ⁓ situations like where we're calling for restitution of of something or we're calling for ⁓ another to forgive appropriately according to to Christ's ways, or those difficult situations when you get called And there's brokenness and you're trying to help restore in some way. Those are always very, very hard. It's really fun and exciting to have a front row seat when the Lord works in people's hearts and you see things come together and He He does His restoration in people's lives. It's always fun to see that. But it's hard at the front end of that to make these types of appeals to think about, man, you know, I I've got to go talk to this person. Those are difficult, difficult things. I want you to to to dive in a little bit here, Paul is having to deal with this very difficult situation. He's appealing to this brother, ⁓ to to receive Onesimus back again. But he does it with a certain tone, ⁓ a certain language, ⁓ where he's calling for a a a different type of way, maybe than Philemon would would prefer or want, knowing the situation. ⁓ how does this encourage us to engage difficult situations like this that we find ourselves in, especially in the counseling room?

Keith Evans: Yeah, absolutely. I I hope that we've seen in our time here, Dale, as we've been seeking to unpack the book of Philemon, how wise the apostle Paul is being. You know, it's it's not just like a simplistic approach. Like he's really thought through ⁓ Philemon. He's really thought through the application of the gospel to Philemon and his circumstances, and how can I come alongside in in that gospel appeal, right? And again, I think that this models biblical counseling so well. Like this is what we're aiming to do. It's not just like a thoughtless, simplistic approach to people. That's not what biblical counseling is at all. We need to know the person. We need to understand their circumstances. We need to know how the scriptures, particularly the gospel, applies to their circumstances. And then we as a third party coming into that, like how can we walk alongside of them in wisdom's way? And so that's what Paul is modeling here. He's instead of like a conflict of coming directly against Philemon. He's coming alongside of and seeking to show a more excellent way. And just kind of one more textual illustration from the book, he says, you know, I write with my own hand. This is in verses 18 and 19 of the book. I write with my own hand. You know elsewhere how hard it is for Paul to write with his own hand, right? And he's saying, If if Onesimus has cost you anything, I mean that that's an understatement of a century, right? If he's cost you anything, ⁓ I will repay it, charge it to my account. And again, he's speaking sincerely there. now, how's Paul, a prisoner, going to repay his massive debt? It's gonna be out of the storehouses of the ministry that probably Philemon himself has even contributed to. ⁓ but but he's good for it. I mean, he's a man of his word. Again, it's not underhanded. And so what we see here is we see pastoral, level-headed wisdom, ⁓ who's you know, willing to be wronged for the sake of another. We we just see an incredible modeling of the character of the Lord Jesus Christ, but applied to, I know it's a letter, but but applied to a counseling situation. I mean, that's effectively what we what we see here. And and so I I just would love for us to catch just a little bit of a vision for what the apostle Paul is doing in our counseling rooms as as we apply it to our counseling. How can we be you know, coming alongside of showing a more excellent way, how can we exhibit that pastoral tone tone? How can we be incredibly wise in our application of the scripture because we know the person and we know how the scriptures apply on the particular situations? Man, in in so many respects, Philemon is is my vision for biblical counseling and know that it would be for all of us.

Dale Johnson: No, that's so helpful and and definitely gives us a ⁓ a certainly a different way to appeal to people in wisdom with proper tone. ⁓ appealing not so much about the right and the wrong of what Philemon could do or should do, but also but but primarily appealing to the excellent way that the Lord has given to us to to restore. And ⁓ what a beautiful picture, ⁓ moving forward, focusing on what's to come, helping our counseles think through that with with a this is a different tone for Paul in some some respects. And I appreciate you pointing that out, demonstrating for us how to go from from text to method in the counseling room. Keith, thanks for your time today.

Keith Evans: Thank you, Leo.