speaker-0: Motivating counselees to forgive on this edition of Truth in Love. Dale Johnson, and you're listening to Truth in Love, a podcast of the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors, where we seek to provide biblical solutions to the problems that people face. This week on the podcast, I have with me Dr. Jacob Elwert. He's a pastor of discipleship ministries at Inner City Baptist Church in Allen Park, Michigan. He also serves as assistant professor of biblical counseling at Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary. He's a fellow and also a board member with ACBC. He and his wife Jennifer have three children and one grandchild. Jacob, so glad that you're here with us today on the on the podcast. This this is a kind of a difficult topic that we're talking about. Is it? Yeah, talking about this issue of of forgiveness. And especially when someone doesn't seem like they're all that motivated to pursue it. It is difficult when you're dealing with somebody who maybe knows they need to forgive, but they don't, they're not motivated in that direction. So let's talk about this concept of forgiveness. What makes forgiveness such an important issue to help people with in the counseling room? Because some people ⁓ I think they appreciate it, but maybe they're not in that way. They don't see the value of it. So help us to see that.

speaker-1: Yeah, I think forgiveness is necessary whenever a person has been sinned against. And so so so often in counseling, people are coming in looking for help after having experienced the collateral damage of someone else's sin. And I think in our flesh, when we're sinned against, we tend towards unforgiveness and bitterness. And so forgiveness is something that believers not only must know about, but they must put into practice and the The first text that comes to mind is Ephesians four thirty two that says, Be kind, tender hearted, forgiving one another, just as God for Christ's sake has forgiven you. So that's not a suggestion, you know, if you feel like it, if if things kinda line up well, that is something that's expected of us. We need to forgive.

speaker-0: But it's hard to be motivated in that direction. In fact, one of the things that I see is people sort of vacillate in error, I think, in two basic ways. And when we're talking about the subject of forgiveness, first, they don't feel motivated, right? They've been so hurt. And they, okay, I know what the Lord says, but I'm just not ready to forgive, or I'm not motivated, is what you're describing here. ⁓ another side that I've seen that I think is really interesting is a lot of secularists ⁓ are starting to study this concept of forgiveness. Now, very differently than you and I would describe it, and very different in terms of motivation as to why we should, as believers, obey what the Lord says. Because secular researchers are describing it in such terms to say, this is how it's beneficial for you, or this is how it's most helpful for you. So the focus is is quite radically different. And it's not motivated by something that our Lord has done for our sake. So you see sort of those two extremes. It does matter. why it is that we're motivated. It does matter what it is that we're trying to accomplish with this concept of forgiveness. And even secularist are starting to see at least the concept in and of itself is valuable to some degree. So let's dive in a little bit. Where does this motivation actually come from?

speaker-1: Well, again, this Ephesians four thirty-two s says it right there in the verse, forgiving others just as God for Christ's sake has forgiven you. So it has to start with our acknowledgement and appreciation for God's forgiveness of us. And so I love to help motivate counselees to forgive by reminding them of the gospel. You know, the gospel is not something that just saves us, it also is something that came to us in order to teach us to say no to ungodliness and worldly loss and to live soberly, righteously and godly in this present age. And so we wanna bring that gospel to bear on every aspect of their life, and particularly this area of unforgiveness. So I w wanna remind them of the gospel, and one of my favorite texts to help them with this specific issue is Matthew eighteen, twenty one to thirty five. There Jesus gives the parable, the unforgiving servant, the king has a servant who owes him ten thousand talents. The servant is he begs for mercy. He b actually begs for more time. And the king says, All right, I'm not going to give you more time. I'm actually going to forgive you. And so he he forgives his debt and the first servant goes out and finds his own servant who owes a hundred denarii. And he's he starts choking him and says, Pay back what you owe me. And the second servant gets down on his knees in a similar way to the first servant. and asks for more time, which in his case, the second servant actually could have used more time to to pay back what was owed. But this ⁓ first servant was unforgiving. And so when the master's some of the other servants saw what had happened, they reported it back to the master, and the master said, If you cannot forgive, then you will not be forgiven. And so how how could someone who has been shown mercy not show forgiveness to someone else? And so there's there's so much to unpack there. But I love I love using that passage as a way to help them bring into living color what it looks like to forgive and what it looks like to be unforgiving. Because sometimes in order for us to see a concept, sometimes it's helpful to see the opposite. In this case, we see this first servant as not being willing to forgive.

speaker-0: Yeah, that's so true. And I think that that's an awakening to us when we we don't see something in ourself, but yet we see it in someone else, and we don't like the way that that looks, and then we come to grips with, you know what, that's exactly what I'm doing. It's a little bit easier, certainly, to see it in someone else. I think this is excellent to go to this particular text. In fact, I go the same direction. I start often in Ephesians four thirty two with that concept that Paul gives it so clear. On my way to Matthew 18, a lot of times I'll take a pit stop at Matthew seven. And at Matthew seven, what I do is I talk about this concept of any type of conflict is first and foremost not a throwing of stones at one another across this chasm of conflict. The first place in any conflict that happens where we could be unforgiving is self-examination. And that's exactly what he calls us to in that that passage in Matthew seven. Because, you know, oftentimes people say, Well, I mean, there's nothing that I need to. To work through. What they forget is the way we love much is we we see the depth at which we've been forgiven. Those who have been forgiven much love much. And Matthew seven, I think, helps us to see that. Then we get on our way to Matthew 18 and you start working through this parable, which I think is perfect, right? Where you see not just the value from a selfish perspective. And we can talk about, I think the Bible does describe value for us in keeping us from bitterness and and all the. malice and wrath that can come from that, but the command that the master gives, and he's giving an example here. Now you started into Matthew 18, describing the parable, explaining it just a little bit, but I want to get to the point. So get get to the point of the particular parable and how you help to motivate a person who needs to forgive.

speaker-1: My understanding of the parable is that those who have genuinely been forgiven will forgive like their father. The last ⁓ line is is actually Jesus' assessment of this situation. He says, My heavenly father will also do the same to you if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart. And what he did to that slave is he actually was gonna torture him until he could pay back all what what he owed. So that first servant. One of the things that's important, I think, to understand about ⁓ these two amounts of money is that they're very different in terms of the ability to pay them back. So the first the first burden or the first ⁓ debt that was owed was ten thousand talents, which is perhaps as much as fifteen billion dollars. It's the price of ten thousand slaves. One talent would be one slave, so ten thousand slaves. So just imagine if you owed fifteen billion dollars, how long would it take you for you to pay back? And that's the point. Is it's such a high amount. Some people see that as just a really high number, whatever the case is, it's it's saying we have an impossible debt and God has forgiven us of that debt. And so our response should be one of liberally forgiving when others sin against us. Because the debt that we have against us is similar to the f the debt that the second servant had against the first servant, and that was a hundred deneri, which is a hundred days wages. Which we're talking it's not an insignificant amount of money. I mean, maybe twelve or thirteen thousand dollars in our day, but but it's still in comparison to what he had been forgiven, it is insignificant. And that's really we how we need to think about it, that the greatest sin that anyone could ever do to us pales in comparison to the sin that we've committed against God. And I say that hesitantly because I haven't experienced the worst kinds of sin, but I can say with confidence that No sin that anyone has committed against us is greater than what we've done to the Father. In fact, the way that know that is because if I was the only person to ever live in the world, my sin would be enough to put Jesus on the cross, to condemn him to condemnation for the sake of my sin. And so that means that that my sin did not contribute. Just, you know, sometimes you think about it, well, there's lots of evil people and Jesus died on the cross and So my sin, maybe one drop of blood, but but no, it it actually caused his death. You know, I hear my mo hear my mocking voice call out among the scoffers, it was my sin that held him there. And so we need to recognize that. What God has done for us, he's offered that to us, he's granted that to us. Now, one thing that that we have to be careful about in parables is that we don't develop theology from parables, because sometimes when people come to this text, They think, okay, this is how I'm going to develop a theology of salvation. Well, this is what we would say is more of an obscure passage when it comes to theology, so we need to make sure that we're interpreting obscure passages with clear passages. So we know from the rest of scripture that this is not talking about someone who lost his salvation, that he had it, and then after he showed himself not to be faithful, then he lost it. No, he never had it. The point of the parable is that it is unthinkable. For someone to have experienced true and genuine forgiveness from the master, and yet he's still unwilling to forgive his brother when he's been sinned against. And again, what I want to highlight when I'm working with people is it's not insignificant the amount of debt that someone owes to you because they've sinned against you, but but you can forgive. And the the way that you're motivated by that is by constantly going back to and remembering. the debt that you have been forgiven. And as you do, that serves as motivation for how you're going to forgive them. I can do this because I remember what my debt was. I was deserving of eternal condemnation. I was an enemy of God. I deserved his wrath full and final, but for some reason in his kindness, in his mercy, he condescended and allowed me to experience full pardon, full forgiveness so that my sins are paid in full. And when that's on my mind, I've seen videos of guys whose daughters died in in a church shooting, or there was the the Green River killer, I think it was over in California, who killed some forty-eight women. And one of his the victims' fathers at the ⁓ hearing said, you know, there's a lot of people in this room says it to the perpetrator, to the murderer. There's a lot of people in this room that hate you, but I'm not one of them. I want to grant you forgiveness. And what I take that to mean is here's a guy who understands that God has shown forgiveness to him and he now can offer that to a person who doesn't deserve it, just in the same way that we don't deserve it. None of us deserved forgiveness, and yet God granted it to us. And when we think about it in those proper terms, I think that helps motivate us. It it sheds all of the excuses for why we can walk around in life with bitterness and unforgiveness. And it moves towards the kind of love and mercy that God showed to us.

speaker-0: That's right. I mean I I think many people think about this concept of forgiveness in terms of a bargaining chip. They they think the concept of forgiveness ⁓ that it's reciprocal, for example, is well, you know, Jacob, since I when I harmed you last time, ⁓ you forgave me. So since you you hurt me this time, I'll forgive. That's not the direction. And oftentimes what hinders our ability or willingness to forgive is when we focus on the the offense done against us. primarily. And I think that's a part of the point that you're making, even from the parable, is that we have to focus on the amount of debt that we've been forgiven by. And I think we minimize the understanding of God's love when we pay attention to just how much the Lord has forgiven us, just what a debt he has covered on our behalf. And now what comes from us, this is the motivating factor, right? That this now what comes from us to people is we want them to to taste We want ⁓ to see that. We want we have no reason to hold obligation against him. The Lord speaks about this in Matthew six, fourteen and fifteen. You know, in in in fact, after the prayer that he offers as an example, if you forgive others' trespasses, your heavenly father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others' trespasses, neither will your father forgive your trespasses. It is the expectation. that we see and and that is the primary motivating factor. So if I could flip it around, here's the way I would assess what you've described so far. The dullness of heart to forgive is because we focus on the sin done against us. The motivation of our heart to forgive is driven by the depth that we see God has forgiven us of our own sin. And I think that's the beauty of what happens. Now, final words that you could give, anything else that that we should think about as we're we're trying to help. people to see why they should pursue what God has commanded in forgiveness.

speaker-1: Right. And just underscore what you were just saying, verse thirty-three of the text that in Matthew 18 says, and should you not have had mercy on your fellow servant as I had mercy on you? So again, it this is the expectation that when we are forgiven, we must forgive. If we truly are people who have experienced forgiveness, then that's going to be our response. I guess the final thing that I I normally try to help people think through. So I'm assigning them Matthew eighteen, but then I'm also bringing into the counseling session after we've talked about Matthew eighteen, I want I want them to understand Luke seventeen, three, and four. And it says, Pay attention to yourselves. If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him, and if he sins against you seven times in the day and turns to you seven times saying, I repent, you must forgive him. What we didn't talk about is that that Parable in Matthew 18 actually comes in the context of Peter asking, How many times should I forgive? And Jesus' response is not seven times, but seventy times seven. And then he gives this parable to explain how important it is that we are just generously and regularly and liberally forgiving, that this is just the constant state of our life. And he says something similar here in Luke 17, but what I take Matthew 18 to be is the call of God for us to have a heart or an attitude of forgiveness, that we constantly have this posture that I'm ready to forgive whenever someone sins against me. But there is a transaction that also we need to recognize has to take place. And this is my take on on Luke 17. I know some other people agree with me on this and some good people disagree with me on that just fine. But the way I understand it is it's similar to God's granting of forgiveness to us. That he offers it to all. He does not wish that anyone would perish, but that all would come to repentance. But he only grants it to he only the transaction of forgiveness only happens to those who repent. And so there is an expectation on the part of the sinner to actually come and seek forgiveness. And so Luke 17, that's what's happening. He's saying, when your brother comes to you and says, I repent, then that's the transaction. Make it happen. So the way that I've heard it explained is It's like you, as the person who's been sinned against, you stick your hand out to shake the other person's hand, but they have to reach across and shake your hand in response. If they don't, there's no forgiveness that's granted. So we are always have this posture, this heart of forgiveness. So that if anyone ever came to us and said, Hey, you know, I I sinned against you. I finally acknowledged it. I would love for you to forgive me. We don't have to deliberate and think about it for weeks. We've already had this posture of forgiveness because we've been reflecting on the heart of God towards us in forgiving us. So we have this heart, this attitude, this posture of forgiveness. The transaction is is all whether or not they come and seek repentance. And I can be completely content in that. The beauty of of God's forgiveness is that He's quick to forgive and He's ready to forgive at the first sign of turning. And for us, sometimes we do need to think about, especially when we've been sinned against in big ways, but ultimately It has to start with Matthew eighteen, Ephesians four. We have to recognize that we have a responsibility, a heart, an attitude of forgiveness. And then when someone comes, then the transaction is final. We no longer treat them as their sins deserve. We don't bring it up again. We don't use that against them. We don't talk about it with others. Those kinds of promises that that ⁓ I think it's ⁓ Ken Sandy had had put out there for the promises of forgiveness. I think that All takes place when that transaction has happened.

speaker-0: Yeah. The difference I think you're describing between forgiveness and reconciliation. So reconciliation becomes a transaction that's not possible and if both parties aren't aren't participating. So I I love the way that you describe that in terms of heart posture and then this concept of transaction. This is the primary motivation. And if we can't see the depth of God's love for us and the way He forgave us, there there's no way to manipulate a human heart to forgive. It's only the work of God in helping us see what we've been forgiven. Jacob, thanks for helping us to not just see the text, but how practical it is and good for our own hearts.

speaker-1: Денки.

speaker-0: You're listening to Truth in Love, a podcast of ACBC. I want to remind our members that we have a webinar coming up in just a few days, Thursday, June the 18th at 6:30 p.m. Central. We will have our summer quarterly equip and engage webinar with Brent Osterberg titled More Than a Tender Conscience: Helping Those Who Feel Stuck in Moral Obsession. And this will be focused on the concept of scrupulosity and intrusive thoughts, those types of things. And this is a free resource for our members. That also counts towards CEU requirements. So if you're a member and you've not already signed up, please do so. You should find an email with that opportunity to sign up. And if you have any questions about signing up, please feel free to send an email to infobbiblicalcounseling.com. If you want to find out more about what we do here at ACBC or other webinars and resources that we offer, please visit us at biblicalcounseling.com.