speaker-0: Conquering addiction on this edition of Truth and Love. Johnson, and you're listening to Truth in Love, a podcast of the Association of Certified Biblical Counselors, where we seek to provide biblical solutions to the problems that people face. This week on the podcast, I have with me Dr. John Okanaga. He serves as assistant professor of biblical counseling in the Jack Terry School of Educational Ministries. He also occupies the Hope for the Heart Chair of Biblical Counseling. He's a Southwesterner by academic pedigree. He previously served as an adjunct professor of biblical counseling at Southwestern, where he now serves full-time. His research focus is on addiction and how to counsel and disciple individuals coming out of addiction. He's the author of From Sin to Disease and then also a Biblical Handbook for Counseling Heart Issues. And he's written in other areas related to addiction. Dr. Okanaga has over a decade of experience ministering and counseling those coming out of addiction in a variety of ministry settings. He's also served as an associate pastor in California. Dr. Okanaga is married to Nicole and is the father of James. Brother, it's so good to be with you. And I'm not sure, maybe I'm remembering correctly. This is our first podcast together. Is that right? I'm looking forward to this. I think it's going to be fun. You and I have known each other for quite some time. And that's been fun to watch your growth there at Southwestern and ⁓ now stepping in the role of teaching and even knowing, you know, previously about your work with addiction. Just very encouraging how the Lord is using you in so many different ways. And today we're going to be talking about this concept of

Dale Johnson: I wanted to give a reminder to all of our members about continuing education units, CEUs. ⁓ Once a person becomes a certified member with us at ACBC, we require them to complete 20 hours of continuing education every two years. And we want to keep you as up to date as possible with the things that are happening within the biblical counseling world. ⁓ And we also want to make sure that you're in how the scripture views different.

speaker-1: Yeah, it is, actually.

Dale Johnson: problems that people face so that you can continue to grow and learn and discern as you serve those who are broken. These units include various education opportunities from attending an approved ACBC training event at one of our training centers to reading books or teaching a biblical counseling class and many more. Even listening to this podcast can count toward these units. So if you're a member, this is your reminder to continue to sharpen your mind to hone

speaker-0: Of conquering addiction, using biblical truths to do that very thing. And we're going to be talking some about contrasting what many people may know as traditional type recovery programs. And so to get us, you know, started in this discussion, ⁓ John, what I want you to do is to give us some of those traditional recovery programs, and then we'll start to dive into some of the distinctions of how we see biblical discipleship. But let's just start with some of those. traditional recovery programs that people may be familiar with.

Dale Johnson: Your skill at counseling the scriptures to one another. And you can find all the information you need to know about our CEUs, what counts, how you record those, how you report those to us. You can find out more information on our website, biblicalcounseling.com.

speaker-1: You know, I think the most well known would be Alcoholics Anonymous, AA. When I went through treatment almost 19 years ago, that was a predominant model, which is from you know the the secular standpoint, which which views addiction as a disease. And you know, unfortunately, that mentality, that paradigm has negatively influenced the church. Now, about 20-something years ago, ⁓ Celebrate Recovery came out, and that was supposed to be the new hip thing to provide a biblical approach for addictions. And On the surface, it looks good. I attended CR actually at Saddleback when I was in rehab. So I was at the granddaddy of them all every Friday night. And we had thousands upon thousands. And it's great to see people trying to approach addictions from a biblical standpoint. And even ⁓ Rick Warren in the in the forward, he said this it will not be a psychologized version of addiction ⁓ treatment. But unfortunately, AA still seeped into celebrate recovery. I wrote my dissertation on it. I upset quite a few people with my dissertation because I basically argued that CR just Christianized AA. They took the same methods, the same foundations, and it just once again seeped into our churches. And I always remember in your classes, you talked about foundation matters, like what is the underlying method that is being taught? And even with celebrate recovery, it's you gotta go to the meetings, you gotta. Attend it for the rest of your life, basically. And while they do have, you know, Christianized words in there, it's the same concept that once an addict, always an addict, that you need to attend meetings to be, and I they don't even call it free. You need to attend meetings to be sober. There's been other ones that came out. There's one that came out of the village church called The Steps. It hasn't really caught on as much as I thought it would, but even there, you you see a Christianized version of. Of Alcoholics Anonymous. And then I think the newest one out there is a program called Regen. Now, when I first saw it, I was like, ⁓ once again, a Christianized version of AA. But out of all of the Christian programs out there, I think Regen would actually be the closest to what we would advocate in biblical counseling. They're not all the way where we're at, but it's a lot better than than some of the other programs that are out there.

speaker-0: Now you have an interesting perspective because as you mentioned just briefly in in some of your history, you were there as someone attending. You were coming out of an addiction for quite some time. And so you've seen sort of both sides of that. And then the Lord has led you to to now lead in that ministry as well. So you've seen a lot of different sides of these types of recovery programs. So what I want you to talk about a little bit, and and some of this will be from Not just your personal experience, but also your your study of these things. What are what are some of the things that you've seen fail in traditional recovery programs? And then ⁓ why do you think biblical discipleship succeeds where those particular programs fall short?

speaker-1: Sure. I mean, why they fall where they fall short is actually they're still in bondage. For an addict, whether it's a substance or or whatever it is, you're in bondage to that. Now, what these programs offer, and A did a great job of this. I I need to share this before I I really nail them. And I I talk about this in my class. You know, how many of you actually have a 24 hour hotline that someone can call in if they have a desire to pick up a drink or a drug? The church doesn't, AA does. You know, how many of our churches have members that'll take someone detoxing off of heroin, you know, where you know that they're gonna throw up and and soil themselves and stick them on a couch for three days? Not many of our churches do, but AA does. How many of you give away free material for that person who has lost all their money? Have a resource desk at the back, and if you have money, you pay 10 bucks. If you don't, they give it away for free. Some churches do, but all AA meetings do. So with that said, that's my, hey, this is what they're doing well. They actually function as a community. What AA did was they're explicit from the beginning that they reached out to the clergy and they were intentional in saying the church is not equipped to deal with this. And basically we abdicated soul care. We just handed it over. We didn't fight for it, nothing. We abdicated soul care. We abdicated communities to AA. Now with that said, Where do they, where do they fail? AA has this saying, once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic. And that if you don't attend your meeting every single week, you are bound for a relapse. And when I walked away from that world of the 12 steps, and I was only in the world of 12 steps for maybe like three months, I went totally to the discipleship biblical route very, very early on in my recovery. But when I started working in treatment, They actually made me attend meetings with the clients. That was part of working in the recovery world was had to attend meetings. And then when I went to the sober living home, recover that world, once again, I was required by my boss to attend at least one meeting a week. And the reason being was meeting makers make it. That was basically a phrase that they have. And the problem with that is it neglects that through Christ, that we're free from bondage. Of all sins. Christ died on the cross, not just for some of our sins, but for all of our sins. But the recovery model that AA produces, proposes, same with CR and all these things, you need to attend meetings to stay sober. I had guys with 30 years of sobriety who's like, they're saying, Well, you're going to relapse because you don't attend enough meetings. And I'm like, Well, you know, instead of saying I need to go to a meeting, what I did is I needed to stick my nose into the word of God. Instead of calling my sponsor, I needed to get on my knees and pray. And it was just a different paradigm on how they viewed overcoming the issues. One was program meeting base versus mine was, I'm gonna spend time in the word and I'm I wanna be truly free from my sin.

speaker-0: No, I think that's helpful experientially. You you mentioned some of the things that I think the church is weak at. And I think we have to be honest about this. There are certainly obstacles that the church faces when trying to deal with these these cycles of addiction. And there are some places that I think we we have to come to grips with. And I want you to talk just for a second about some of those obstacles because these are the types of obstacles that I think keep people from from truly seeing freedom, the freedom that has been bought. by Christ. So talk about, you know, in your consideration of the church, what particular obstacles prevent pre people from genuinely walking in freedom, genuinely walking in holiness to to help keep them from relapse.

speaker-1: You know, one of the things is a lot of people fall for the lie that they have an incurable disease that'll be with them for the rest of their life. Because that's what, you know, A has really pushed for the last 100 plus years. It is a disease, it's an allergy. Even the the medical world for for a big chunk of change, they were also pushing this disease mentality. And what happens with that is there's no hope. So no matter what I do, no matter how much time I spend in the Word, no matter how much time I pray, no matter how much I work on what's inside of me, church members fall for that lie that they're gonna struggle with this for the rest of their life. Why? Because no one has done a great job pushing back on that narrative in a way that they're not, you know, the person who is struggling isn't seen as being stupid or we miss something. And I think it's also us as biblical counselors. Speaking truth in love, like truly articulating biblical truth to these individuals who, I mean, it's life or death for them, Dale. You know, one relapse, they can die. And having that heart, like, hey, I understand that your sin issue can cause a physical death. But let me let me articulate what the gospel actually says in a loving way. I don't know if you remember this, Dale, but I was in your practicum three class and I actually presented to you. My discipleship model. I don't know if you remember you you've had so many students, you probably don't. And you said, I agree with probably 80%. But then there was the but. And most people don't like being told but. I took that more as a challenge. All right, I'm gonna refine what I'm doing with my boys in a way that it is truly 100% biblical counseling that I'm doing, not just behavior modification. And as we care for those who are struggling with addictions, it's that speaking truth and love part that we that we've been missing out for so long. This is what you got wrong. This is what you got wrong, without highlighting, hey, this is the biblical part that you're doing. Let's grow and build upon that so that your, you know, your sobriety, your fundamental change is solely dependent on the word. And we're not just changing a behavior. We're looking at having a heart change take place where they can truly be free.

speaker-0: Yeah, and I think that's a that's definitely an aim and focus, but it does take function, right, in in the ways in which we go about pursuing that discipleship, what it is that we focus on. I love the way you you described, yeah, there may be things that they're doing wrong, and at some point, yeah, we have to point those things out, but also affirming the things that they're doing well and the things that they're pursuing well. I want you to talk a little bit about you know, we have a lot of listeners who are serving faithfully in their churches. They encounter different parts of the the United States, they encounter these types of of issues that they're facing. Talk a little bit about your discipleship strategy and and how how it might change the church if we embrace this sort of weekly scripture based model instead of the therapeutic pattern that that is so predominant with the twelve step idea.

speaker-1: You know, my model is they saw I I argue the worst four-letter word God ever created, and that's time. Elon Musk, richest man ever, he can't buy more time. Nikola Tesla, one of the smartest men ever, he could never create more time. And unless you have a DeLorean that can go 88 miles per hour and hit the clock tower exactly at midnight, you can't go back in time. But if you're listening about this, what what is it that you need to change or include in helping those who struggle with addiction, invest your time with them? You know, it's not just Thursday for an hour at two and then I'll see you next Thursday. No, I mean it's it's requiring an investment and sacrifice of your time with a people group that that's all actually all they have now. So you gotta think of it. They used to go to the bar every day, or they used to party with their friends every day, or smoke weed, or do drugs with someone. And we re we remove that from their life. So what are they supposed to do at their time? You know, most pastors that I've heard, well, I'm just gonna tell them to read their Bible more. I'm gonna tell them to pray more. And those are absolutely necessary. I'm not saying we don't do that. But how many of us, you know, I'm gonna ask you, Dr. Johnson, do you spend eight hours a day praying and reading the Bible every single day?

speaker-0: I I can't say that. That's true. I'm talking to you right now, so I c I can't be doing that right this second. Yeah.

speaker-1: But you know, that's what you're asking them three places. What are they doing with their time? I had three pastors early on in my recovery, ⁓ Pastor David Giomi, Pastor Kaala Suza, and Pastor Robert Miller. And what those three men did was they invested in me every single day, whether it was CrossFit, whether it was martial arts, whether it was men's Bible studies, whether it was one-on-one counseling, those men made sure that every single day. I had at least one to two hours of investment from someone in the church into my life where I didn't feel like I was going on this journey alone. And if churches truly want to help my people group, find individuals that are willing to sacrifice their time. Now, I had a small church pastor, he goes, I have 70 members in my church. I love what you're proposing. It sounds great in theory, but I'm one man. I'm bivocational. I have everyone who's bi vocational. How do I do this? And said, Well, Pastor Number One, you need to cast that vision from the pulpit. You need to cast this vision that we are going to be a church as a culture of care from the pulpit. You take the lead. Now you can't care for every single person on the level that I'm asking. So you need to identify leaders in your church, identify seven people that are willing to invest one hour a week with that addict. And I think if we do that, we just start to view them as brothers, you know, for men, brothers in Christ, ladies. Sisters in Christ, and we view them as worthy of our time, that that's that's a secret sauce. You can have the best program, you can have the best exposition of scripture. But if you're not willing to invest your time with people, the likelihood of them staying on this path, especially that first year of sobriety, isn't that good?

speaker-0: So there are two things that I want to highlight that you're you're talking about, I think, are really, really critical. First, the the concept of addiction is is something that encapsulates the whole life experience. Right. So they're their their whole life has been subsumed or consumed under this particular addiction that their life is rotated around. And so you remove them out of that. And so everything in their life is somehow upended. And That community aspect is a second thing. That that they're accustomed to a certain community. Well, not a great community, right? A a community that's corrupting any type of good morals, to be sure, but it's a community. And it's it's one that I've had addicts actually look me in the face and say, I I know what you're saying is true, but I'm afraid of what tomorrow might look like with that change. And even though tomorrow is terrible and bad, I at least know what it's going to be like and I know the people I'm gonna be with. That's hard. Truth to hear. And but what you're describing is being able to invest in their life, be with them, walk with them through whole life experience, which I think is is critical. I want you to talk a little bit about specific heart changes in an attic. Cause when you start to see this, this shift happen, it it's really pretty incredible. So so talk about some of the heart changes that you've observed. You know, as you're spending time with them, they start naming particular things that that they're struggling with in honesty, in fullness. They start genuinely repenting rather than what I've seen a lot with with folks who come out of that world is they just simply they're they're guilty for what they they feel. They hate the situation that they're in. They try and manage their responses or their behaviors. They think that's how they're going to come out of that world. Talk about some of the specific heart changes that you see. Cause as a counselor, honestly, you deal with this all the time, John. A lot of our counselors may not. And it's it's hard to recognize because a lot of a person who's who's enslaved to that level of sin, their their life has has been about lying, their life has been about deception. They're even themselves deceived. And so it's very hard to distinguish sometimes between a management of behavior versus genuine repentance and heart change. Talk about when you see that genuine, honest heart change, repentance in an addict versus managing behaviors.

speaker-1: I've actually tried transitioned, not in that way, but I went from working with, you know, the addicts to non-working more with families. And one of the things that I've seen, even working with addicts and not working more with families, I tell the loved one, you know, that your your son, your husband has turned the corner when they stop blaming you for their addictions and they start taking personal responsibility. And they actually go to you and say, I am sorry for blaming you for the last. 10 years for my addictions. You may have done horrible things. You may not have been a perfect, you know, parent. You may not have been a perfect spouse. But I'm taking personal responsibility for my actions. Once that heart change takes place, where they're not focused on everyone else's a problem, and they go they start to say, hey, I'm the sinner in need of a savior. I'm the one who needs to repent of my sins. I need to ask for genuine forgiveness, not just working a step to make amends, but truly, genuinely saying, I am sorry for what I have done. That heart posture of blaming everyone else and realizing they're the agent that did all of this, that is like for me, like we're good. I mean, I I have very rarely seen someone who gets to that point where they truly, genuinely take personal responsibility for their actions and stop blaming everyone else. And they, you know, I've worked with guys who have had loved ones murdered, all kinds of crazy, crazy things. But once that heart postures, like, God, I'm a sinner in need of a savior, I am sorry. So that's the first, right? That vertical, working on that vertical relationship with their father in heaven. And then we can start working on the horizontal. Then going to their parents, going to their wife, going to their children and saying, Look, I am sorry for what I've done. That simple shift may seem insignificant to the world, but for a believer, that is massive. Because it it's no longer everyone else's fault. It is, I I made a mistake and I'm sorry, and I'm gonna ask for forgiveness. And not just asking for forgiveness, but taking the steps to maintain that vertical relationship with their father and also healing the damage of the horizontal with their loved one as well. You do that, I'm like, all right, that doesn't mean you're 100%. Because once you stop praying every day, once you stop reading the word, once you stop working on that vertical relationship with God, the horizontal is also gonna go sideways as well.

speaker-0: Yeah, I think that's a good point. Now, what you're describing really is is a heart posture of worship. And if you can get a person to that particular place where they see themselves rightly and appropriately before God, a a lot of things can then start genuinely changing. And that becomes the process of sanctification. Now, you mentioned earlier, this is the last question I want to throw out, but you mentioned earlier the concept of sickness. And for a long time, addiction has been looked at as a disease. There's been a disease model of addiction. So I want you to talk a little bit about this concept of this concept of addiction that that doesn't look at addiction as a disease, as a sickness so much as as a worship. And this issue of worship in giving our hearts in fullness to God. So I want you to clarify, we've talked about this in biblical counseling for a long time, but I want you to give a quick perspective on why it's so important to see this as an issue of worship.

speaker-1: Once upon a time, the medical professional and even those in the recovery industry, they're the ones pushing the disease model. A shift has taken place probably in the last Santin Peel started it, you know, 20, 30 years ago, but more and more are starting to see it as a choice. And I I need to point this out, Dr. Johnson. The people really pushing the disease model is actually the church, which is ridiculous to me. Because what we should see it as is an idolatry issue. What are we elevating over being obedient to the word of God? And that simple shift, like it's a heart issue, it's an idolatry issue, it's a worship issue. What are you actually worshiping? I just completed something for you all and I I mentioned, you know, for the addict, are they worshiping for those who just got a promotion? Are they turning to cocaine to celebrate? Are they going to turn to God and thanking God for the blessing? When they have a death of a loved one, are they are they going towards alcohol? To numb the pain, to numb the sadness, to numb all the feelings? Are they laying those burdens at the feet of Christ? And how we react to just life's situations shows what our heart posture is. Are we gonna be focused on doing everything to bring God praise, glory, and honor? Or are we gonna try to wrestle control back from God and be like, no, I'm the boss, I'm in control here. And that is so fundamental in helping people overcome addictions, is getting that heart posture towards. Dr. Katz said, the reward for obedience is obedience. Just because you're obedient doesn't mean that life is going to get easier. What we're doing is we're being obedient to the word because that's what God commands us to do. And when we do that, addictions, the struggle, it might be there, but we default to being obedient to the word instead of going to what the world says we should should run to.

speaker-0: I think what you're describing is is such an opportunity for the church of God to rise up to meet some of these portals of darkness, if you will. The the addiction that we see prevalent in in so much of our country, the church has an opportunity to see people walk from darkness into genuine, marvelous light. But it takes takes work, it takes effort, it takes a changing of paradigm and how we see the way in which God would set people who are in bondage free, and that He has the power and ability to do that. And he's given the church the the keys and the tool to accomplish that in lives of people. John, thank you so much for articulating that and for the ministry that you do every day to see that come to fruition. And we just pray that that churches will continue to move in that direction to help those who are suffering and choosing to sin and be in bondage the most. So thanks, brother, for your work. Appreciate your time today and joining us on the podcast.

speaker-1: Thanks, Dr. Johnson.

speaker-0: Listening to Truth and Love, a podcast of ACBC.